thank you Craig (says Craig) Can wootz be further refined to eliminate the sulphur and phosphorous that makes the shimmer (and decreases the quality of the steel)
Good day, Craig. I have a question about wootz. So, all wootz steels are crucible steels, but not the other way around. So what differentiates them? Only the etched visual patterns, as in wootz steels? Thank you, Loris
I might be wrong but no steel is wootz with out vanadium enriched iron ores. Bloomery to crucible. Do wonder if it was thanks youtube... Fa÷\×ggited or folded. 😉
Good question! I am not sure the definitions are defined like that. The term wootz is a crucible steel but I think any steel produced that way would have been called wootz back in the day. Its the modern folks and the desire to have a name for every variation and the mixing of terms across culture, period and form that gets it all jumbled. The wootz blades of the past had the etched finish and sometimes this was patterned mechanically. But a blade could be made from wootz and not etched and would still be wootz. You can even see the pattern if polished and in bright sunlight in some cases.
@@theoakeshottinstitute4081 It is my belief that the modern nomenclature isn't what it used to be. I am not sure when wootz was starting to get associated with visible pattern. Using a plethora of academic resources, I figure wootz steel is a geographically associated crucible steel (South India and Ceylon) which was made by the steel carburizing method, using wrought iron and plant matter charge, as opposed to co-fusion method from Central Asia (Merv). My observation is also that the tern is used solely for warfare arena- armour and weapons, but ordinary household tools, such as scissors, nails, etc. are never referenced as wootz. I figure you might take the Parmigiano Reggiano parmesan cheese as an example. Make that type of cheese outside its region, with differently sourced ingredients and it is not parmesan anymore. The certificate for the latter could never be obtained. But is there a way to tell if any given weapon, regardless of the hilt and blade style provenance, is from South Indian subcontinent or from Central Asia? Is there a way to distinguish and provenance the 'damascus' weapons which were exported to Damascus for forging, and further export, in an analytical way? Isotopes? Chemical composition? How do you gentlemen do it?
@@emel60 Deep question, the studies on the material have looking at some of these questions but as of now I do not think there is a "Test " result they are looking for to identify origin. That being said a holistic approach looking at all the factors of a piece including any evidence on the material itself is the best way to discern origin or at least where the item was made. Also research into trade routes and supply. As with so many aspects f the trade in material and arms production not a great deal has been codified on such a level, but I do know there are people working on different aspects of these things. I would say we are just passing into the second generation of folks doing deep research on these things and we will see more information to help with much of our understanding of this in both the east and the west in the next few decades.
The question that you ask is less than straight forward to answer. The term Wootz came from the term Uts or Utsa in Tamil, Hindi or Marathi around the Bombay area of India during the 1790s. It was used to refer to water patterned steel (it means fountain, spring, water source) specifically but in the other languages in the region it was known as Ukku which meant to melt or Urukku which means Steel. The words in that region were specific to melted / crucible steel, and Wootz / Uts was only one of the names used. In Marathi and in Northern India it was called Polada. Not all wootz had a well identified pattern as some in southern India was solidified quickly but it was still called the same names that the watered steel was. But watered crucible steel was made from Egypt up to Turkey and across to Mongolia. These were called by the name Bulat, Fulad, Polad, Bolat etc. all from the same basic root word which simply means "Steel". There was crucible steel which had no pattern and others with many different patterns depending on the ingredients and how it was forged. All these steels today fall under the blanket terms of Fulad, Bulat, Wootz. It is all talking about the same material but in the languages of the peoples who made them. Now these only apply to steel which is melted and solidified in the crucible, not steel which is poured into a crucible and then solidified. There were many different recipes of this steel and things like chromium, copper, manganese and silver etc. were added deliberately to the melts in different areas with different results. I hope that clarifies your question. I am a wootz smith and researcher of 20 years experience and a co-founder and president of the International Wootz Society ( internationalwootzsociety.com ). Cheers, Tim.
Do you know Bill Daush?? I believe he and a few others actually rediscovered how to make Wootz steel again 25+ years ago. He's a fantastic metallurgist!!!!
Is this wootz steel which used to be produced in India but the process of which exist no more. Or there r many varieties of wootz. Sorry if I am wrong as I don't no much about this.
There are some varieties and slightly different approaches to the manufacture. The Video posted by KJAkk is pretty good as Al knows his stuff in ways few others do today. It is probably a bit of marketing that the secret was lost. It never stopped in certain areas it was just off the grid as it were to the knowledge base of the west. Historically there were large areas of production using these methodologies from the mid East thru Central Asia all the way to the Island cultures of Southeast Asia.
@@theoakeshottinstitute4081 Craig, you are totally correct, the method of making wootz was never lost and there has been an uninterrupted line of smiths who have continued the craft to the modern day. The people making it in India are marginalized there and most Indians are not even aware of their existence. The production of wootz definitely declined heavily from the mid 1800s due to the export ban, deforestation, famine, competition and a few other factors, but it still continued inside India. What has changed is that those in the west who have been making this steel such as my former mentor Al Pendray, have been able to work out what is happening in the steel to create different traditional patterns and we have in effect brought the craft back out of obscurity. By the way it is awesome that you were able to handle an original ingot from the Konasamudram cache! They are a little bit different than the ones we make today.
I was under the impression that Indian smiths used the same techniques for years afterwards but did not have access to the original ore with Vandium in it . I was told Toledo steel used a similar technique ( the furnace didn't make use of monsoon winds but rather a bellows) again, not with the original steel and it took a few centuries to explain the science behind the old technology . Either way those Indian guys were killing it back in the day. From math to steel to architecture to chess, western cultures owe a huge cultural debt to India. All of the stuff we learned from the Arabs, the Arabs learned from the Indians
@@seanfaherty There were many different techniques used to make crucible steel in different areas in India and around that part of the world not just one. The idea that it died out due to there being an "original ore with vanadium" that ran out originated with John Verhoeven and it was only a thought that he threw out there with no historical foundation at all. It is a modern myth. The toledo steel was a pattern welded damascus type method with forge welding higher carbon steel with lower carbon steel. I am unaware that they used a crucible steel as their higher carbon steel source.
I know they use vanadium in wootz but in pure form but what if your organic matter used as a carbon also contain vanadium? The mushroom amanita muscaria contains the most out of all living life forms. Use dry amanita!
Wootz is not pronounced like foot it’s like boot. Also if you watch the documentary about Al Pendray then you will understand this is an over simplification of how wootz steel is made. The thermal cycling and vanadium percentage is critical otherwise you just get steel that looks like wootz but does not have the same properties.
Wootz has Vanadium .metal in it that's what allows it to make those patterns and they are far more functional than pretty. This is how wootz is made and the men who discovered the science behind it ruclips.net/video/OP8PCkcBZU4/видео.html This is Elia with general information on different kinds of steel and while masterwork wootz is undeniably king, getting it wrong makes a very bad product as he points out in this vid. ruclips.net/video/5djVkOgu8vs/видео.html Making passable wootz that can stand tow to tow with an Ulfbert for instance is already a feat of a master Smith, making masterwork Wootz requires starting with very clean material and then doing everything correctly. Eather you make masterwork wootz or you make something pretty that bends mid battle and may cost you your life.
thank you Craig (says Craig) Can wootz be further refined to eliminate the sulphur and phosphorous that makes the shimmer (and decreases the quality of the steel)
Well done sir
Good day, Craig.
I have a question about wootz. So, all wootz steels are crucible steels, but not the other way around. So what differentiates them? Only the etched visual patterns, as in wootz steels?
Thank you,
Loris
I might be wrong but no steel is wootz with out vanadium enriched iron ores. Bloomery to crucible. Do wonder if it was thanks youtube... Fa÷\×ggited or folded. 😉
Good question! I am not sure the definitions are defined like that. The term wootz is a crucible steel but I think any steel produced that way would have been called wootz back in the day. Its the modern folks and the desire to have a name for every variation and the mixing of terms across culture, period and form that gets it all jumbled. The wootz blades of the past had the etched finish and sometimes this was patterned mechanically. But a blade could be made from wootz and not etched and would still be wootz. You can even see the pattern if polished and in bright sunlight in some cases.
@@theoakeshottinstitute4081
It is my belief that the modern nomenclature isn't what it used to be. I am not sure when wootz was starting to get associated with visible pattern. Using a plethora of academic resources, I figure wootz steel is a geographically associated crucible steel (South India and Ceylon) which was made by the steel carburizing method, using wrought iron and plant matter charge, as opposed to co-fusion method from Central Asia (Merv). My observation is also that the tern is used solely for warfare arena- armour and weapons, but ordinary household tools, such as scissors, nails, etc. are never referenced as wootz.
I figure you might take the Parmigiano Reggiano parmesan cheese as an example. Make that type of cheese outside its region, with differently sourced ingredients and it is not parmesan anymore. The certificate for the latter could never be obtained.
But is there a way to tell if any given weapon, regardless of the hilt and blade style provenance, is from South Indian subcontinent or from Central Asia? Is there a way to distinguish and provenance the 'damascus' weapons which were exported to Damascus for forging, and further export, in an analytical way? Isotopes? Chemical composition? How do you gentlemen do it?
@@emel60 Deep question, the studies on the material have looking at some of these questions but as of now I do not think there is a "Test " result they are looking for to identify origin. That being said a holistic approach looking at all the factors of a piece including any evidence on the material itself is the best way to discern origin or at least where the item was made. Also research into trade routes and supply. As with so many aspects f the trade in material and arms production not a great deal has been codified on such a level, but I do know there are people working on different aspects of these things. I would say we are just passing into the second generation of folks doing deep research on these things and we will see more information to help with much of our understanding of this in both the east and the west in the next few decades.
The question that you ask is less than straight forward to answer. The term Wootz came from the term Uts or Utsa in Tamil, Hindi or Marathi around the Bombay area of India during the 1790s. It was used to refer to water patterned steel (it means fountain, spring, water source) specifically but in the other languages in the region it was known as Ukku which meant to melt or Urukku which means Steel. The words in that region were specific to melted / crucible steel, and Wootz / Uts was only one of the names used. In Marathi and in Northern India it was called Polada.
Not all wootz had a well identified pattern as some in southern India was solidified quickly but it was still called the same names that the watered steel was. But watered crucible steel was made from Egypt up to Turkey and across to Mongolia. These were called by the name Bulat, Fulad, Polad, Bolat etc. all from the same basic root word which simply means "Steel". There was crucible steel which had no pattern and others with many different patterns depending on the ingredients and how it was forged.
All these steels today fall under the blanket terms of Fulad, Bulat, Wootz. It is all talking about the same material but in the languages of the peoples who made them. Now these only apply to steel which is melted and solidified in the crucible, not steel which is poured into a crucible and then solidified. There were many different recipes of this steel and things like chromium, copper, manganese and silver etc. were added deliberately to the melts in different areas with different results. I hope that clarifies your question.
I am a wootz smith and researcher of 20 years experience and a co-founder and president of the International Wootz Society ( internationalwootzsociety.com ). Cheers, Tim.
''... BABY DON'T HURT ME''
I came here just to write this. Oh wait katana stuff!
Do you know Bill Daush?? I believe he and a few others actually rediscovered how to make Wootz steel again 25+ years ago. He's a fantastic metallurgist!!!!
Can we purchase Wootz ingots? Or finished blades of crucible wootz?
OMG you would easily pass as Ricky Gervais's brother, amazing.
Is this wootz steel which used to be produced in India but the process of which exist no more. Or there r many varieties of wootz. Sorry if I am wrong as I don't no much about this.
You may find this interesting. The Secrets of Wootz Damascus Steel ruclips.net/video/OP8PCkcBZU4/видео.html
There are some varieties and slightly different approaches to the manufacture. The Video posted by KJAkk is pretty good as Al knows his stuff in ways few others do today. It is probably a bit of marketing that the secret was lost. It never stopped in certain areas it was just off the grid as it were to the knowledge base of the west. Historically there were large areas of production using these methodologies from the mid East thru Central Asia all the way to the Island cultures of Southeast Asia.
@@theoakeshottinstitute4081 Craig, you are totally correct, the method of making wootz was never lost and there has been an uninterrupted line of smiths who have continued the craft to the modern day. The people making it in India are marginalized there and most Indians are not even aware of their existence. The production of wootz definitely declined heavily from the mid 1800s due to the export ban, deforestation, famine, competition and a few other factors, but it still continued inside India. What has changed is that those in the west who have been making this steel such as my former mentor Al Pendray, have been able to work out what is happening in the steel to create different traditional patterns and we have in effect brought the craft back out of obscurity. By the way it is awesome that you were able to handle an original ingot from the Konasamudram cache! They are a little bit different than the ones we make today.
I was under the impression that Indian smiths used the same techniques for years afterwards but did not have access to the original ore with Vandium in it .
I was told Toledo steel used a similar technique ( the furnace didn't make use of monsoon winds but rather a bellows) again, not with the original steel and it took a few centuries to explain the science behind the old technology .
Either way those Indian guys were killing it back in the day. From math to steel to architecture to chess, western cultures owe a huge cultural debt to India. All of the stuff we learned from the Arabs, the Arabs learned from the Indians
@@seanfaherty There were many different techniques used to make crucible steel in different areas in India and around that part of the world not just one.
The idea that it died out due to there being an "original ore with vanadium" that ran out originated with John Verhoeven and it was only a thought that he threw out there with no historical foundation at all. It is a modern myth.
The toledo steel was a pattern welded damascus type method with forge welding higher carbon steel with lower carbon steel. I am unaware that they used a crucible steel as their higher carbon steel source.
I know they use vanadium in wootz but in pure form but what if your organic matter used as a carbon also contain vanadium? The mushroom amanita muscaria contains the most out of all living life forms. Use dry amanita!
Wootz is not pronounced like foot it’s like boot. Also if you watch the documentary about Al Pendray then you will understand this is an over simplification of how wootz steel is made. The thermal cycling and vanadium percentage is critical otherwise you just get steel that looks like wootz but does not have the same properties.
320th like
Wootz has Vanadium .metal in it that's what allows it to make those patterns and they are far more functional than pretty.
This is how wootz is made and the men who discovered the science behind it
ruclips.net/video/OP8PCkcBZU4/видео.html
This is Elia with general information on different kinds of steel and while masterwork wootz is undeniably king, getting it wrong makes a very bad product as he points out in this vid.
ruclips.net/video/5djVkOgu8vs/видео.html
Making passable wootz that can stand tow to tow with an Ulfbert for instance is already a feat of a master Smith, making masterwork Wootz requires starting with very clean material and then doing everything correctly. Eather you make masterwork wootz or you make something pretty that bends mid battle and may cost you your life.
A person sharing valuable knowledge deserves at least a like. Thank you good gentle person
though wootz was from India
ita indian stuff, the tipu's sword is also made with it.
Этот мужик бредит.