Why 98% of knife makers pick the wrong steel according to a metallurgist
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- Опубликовано: 21 мар 2022
- Which is the right steel for a handmade knife? Is it 80CRV2 carbon steel or is it AEBL stainless steel? In this knife making video, Graham Clarke of Clarke Knives talks to us about knowing the difference between carbon steel, stainless steel and powder metallurgy (powder-met) steels. We talk about AEB-L stainless, 17N20, 80CRV2 carbon steel, 1084 carbon steel, and many other vanadium-type of steels.
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Hello fellow knife enthusiasts! Buy "The Razor Edge Book of Sharpening" as recommended by Graham in this video: www.amazon.co.uk/dp/096660590X/?tag=ukbladeshow-21
Not even a knife guy but I applied this to gun barrels and it blew my mind. I'll definitely get that book. What a wealth of knowledge 👏 👌 🙌
Great video, is there any specific type of stainless I should be looking for? I recently purchased a CNC plasma cutter and made some knife blanks. Would you recommend this process?
Watching from the first US capital, Philadelphia.
Thank you, Bill
Most of my knives an tomahawks are 1095 or 80crv2 steel with a hrc of 57 to 59
Where do I get knives that I can dishwash? I don't care if I have to sharpen them daily.
Do you really want to use a plasma cutter? Fantastic. YES! Study carbon formation latices. Or hardening process. Annealing might be required again.
I'm a retired tool & die maker, and have 2 knives I made more than 40 years ago. One is my moose skinning knife, and the other is my camp knife. I had become frustrated with store bought knives not holding an edge long enough to finish a skinning job. So I made 2 knives from O1 tool steel, heat treated them to 65 RC, and they would hold their edge after 4 skinning jobs, and still be sharp enough to shave with. I would not try to cut nails with them, but, used as I intended them to be used, they have served me well. I crafted leather sheaths, dipped them in melted wax, and have never had a speck of rust appear. Granted, the hardness would not work on a knife being abused in a kitchen, but, as long as I didn't try cutting nails, or stab rocks, they would remain razor sharp, year after year. Moose hair is very hard on blades, and my knives held their end up. I'm too old now to chase moose around and lug them out of the bush, but, I do occasionally take them out and touch up the edge on a diamond stone. I've considered selling them, but, can't bear the thought of someone using them to pry open a can of paint, or using them as a screwdriver, so, I keep them, and remember the moose that didn't get away. My brother would not lay a hand on them, for fear of cutting himself, but I think they are the finest blades I have ever used, and every store bought blade I've used since then have proved to be soft, and unable to hold an edge, useless.
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Hi Robin! Thanks for sharing and happy to hear your story! Hope to see you on our other knife making videos!
One of these days I’m going to buy one of those 18” bars of O1 , shape some blades from it and have th3m professionally hardened. Not as good as forged, but I don’t have a forge 🤷♂️.
Is there a place I could see pictures of those knives? What edge profile have you used on them? Cheers from the land down under
To see people abusing knives in so many ways and claim it is for survival is amazing to me. Every tool has an intended purpose and should be used accordingly and within reason. Abuse a tool and expect it to fail, yet many denigrate a knife even though it wasn't used reasonably.
@@remster1159 exactly. I can’t imagine it would last long he ought to skin an entire moose. He must be mistaken about the hardness. As you said. 65 HRC is about the hardest O1 tool steel can get BEFORE even being tempered. Fully hardened. It would be extremely brittle. Accidentally hit a bone and it’s over. Cutting a carrot would destroy that thing.
These 11 minutes were far more informative than an hour in the forums.
Wow! That is such a flattering comment thank you for taking time to drop by! Glad you enjoyed it!
Everyone with a camera, a computer and an internet connection is an “expert” on RUclips. And every now and then a real expert shows up. Thanks for bringing us this.
(The other regrettable phenomenon is that there always has to be a “best.”)
Hey buddy thanks for the lovely feedback. I hope you found it useful!
I've watched hundreds maybe even thousands of videos on you tube about the best steel for knives and none of them have explained things quite as straightforwardly and accurately as Graham!
Thanks for the lovely comment! I hope you’ll enjoy our other videos as well too - lot of them have Graham in it as well! Thanks!
As somebody who took metallurgy and has been blacksmithing most of his life I am so happy to see somebody making a video that actually talks about the metallurgical aspect of blade making
Thanks again buddy. See you in our other videos soon!
Bravo, a knife maker, who knows about crystallography and powder metallurgy! This is a first. As a powder metallurgist, I completely agree with Graham. Subscribed immediately.
Wow thanks for the feedback! Graham is a great guy with in-depth knowledge! We’re all happy to be sharing this info with you!
- Vinz
Yes, they're not stain-free, they are stain-less. You can get good carbon steel that will make your knife great. You can get good stainless steel that will make a great knife. I think the 400 series of alloys are the strongest.
So basically you're saying he's the first knifemaker youve encountered whos not a complete and utter moron and totally incompetent in their craft? Gee dont hold back dude! 😯🥺😠
Well he IS a metallurgist and not just a guy with tools
I have this Tojiro Shirogami Santoku three layer japanese carbon steel knife in my kitcen and it is always a pleasure to cut and sharpen this knife. Carbon if for enjoyment, stainless for abuse.
I like CPM 3V for blades that need toughness, CPM M4 for edge retention, CPM 154 for stain resistance, and CPM MagnaCut for all three.
Hi InkandFish! Sounds like you’re a big fan of the high-end steels! Thanks for sharing!
Is CPM 154 the same as 154CM? Still new to metals, just curious because my mel pardue benchmade folder says 154CM, only indication to what the metal is. Can you tell me anything about it, either way? Appreciated!
@@kellanaldous7092 CPM 154 and 154CM are the same alloy - a stainless steel developed in 1959 for jet engine bearings. The big difference is, CPM 154 is a particle metallurgy version of that alloy put into production in the 2000s specifically for knifemakers.
The particle metallurgy manufacturing process makes it have much better toughness and perfectly even distribution of the alloying elements.
14C28N when on a budget!
154 really isn't that stainless.
I absolutely love the no-frills approach to the explanation, as well as the knowledge that not everyone needs a steel alloy that can cut diamonds. Making a tool’s properties based on its intended use makes infinitely more sense than using the latest and greatest just for the sake of doing so.
Love the video, and I look forward to many more from this channel. 👍
Ho Dave and thank you for the lovely feedback! Happy to hear you’ve enjoyed the video! Yes, we definitely have more videos coming soon about distortion on steel, heat treatment, and a variety of other stuff that would hopefully get you hooked!
In the meantime, please don’t forget to check out our knife-making videos from various UK knifemakers and bladesmiths, both amateur/hobbyists and professionals! Thanks again!
But I need CPM Magnacut! Before this alloy they didn't know how or want to try to reduce formation of Chromium Carbides. That's not fancy, that's science.
Lol, Carbon Steel is the way, Stainless will never hold an edge like carbon steel.
I'm a degreed metallurgist, and I approve this message. Spot on.
I have a degreed too
It pains me to hear a metallurgist (the main in the video) refer to pattern welded steel as Damascus.
It doesn't bother me when laymen or even blacksmiths who ought to know better fail to make the distinction, but a real metallurgist should know the difference.
It's a slap in the face of genuine artists like Al Pendray or scientists like John Verhoeven, who created true wootz crucible steel Damascus.
The term Damascus has become a homogenized marketing term, and doesn't mean what it did 100 years ago.
The Damascus blades you'll find in museums bear no resemblance (structurally) to what 99.9% of people sell today as Damascus (pattern welded).
@@MrVvulf All true, but sometimes the meanings of words change in ways that are very misleading.
@@realmetallurgist8493 Absolutely. I've given up trying to get laymen to understand the difference because they generally don't care.
I suppose I'd be satisfied with changing the word for the historical Damascus steel to something different (perhaps simply Wootz Crucible Vanadium Steel). After all, calling it "Damascus" wasn't a particularly accurate descriptor anyway. The key ingredient was a specific concentration of vanadium, carbon, iron, etc., combined with the proper smelting and forging process to get the desired result).
The old wootz crucible steel mostly came from the region around India and Iran, not only from the mines and furnaces near Damascus, Syria. The steel for the famous Ulfberht swords, for example, came from Iran.
Anyway, thanks for indulging my rant.
@@MrVvulf You obviously know far more about the history than I do. I don't remember any mention of history in my formal training.
Nothing beats old school (knowledge), hence excellent video.
Thank you for watching! I appreciate the feedback!
- Vinz
Thank you for this great, informative video! I've been a knife enthusiast for 40 years and have tried out a lot of knifes and steels. I found my peace with simple carbon steel like 1075. For outdoor, carving and kitchen knives. Keeping the blades clean and dry doesn't bother me, and sharpening them from time to time on the water stone is like a little mediation.
Hi Peter! Thanks for the comment! Yes, I’m a sharpening guy myself too. I call it my zen haha! Thanks!
- Vinz
He’s correct about HSS.
I use o1 and A2 in my handtools .
M2 and T1 in my machines. And a bit of carbides. T1 is my favorite for jointer knives
I used to wonder why hss isn’t used in knives.
Graham covered the reasons correctly.
Thanks August West! If you think that video was of some help, the rest of other pro tips we have are located HERE: ruclips.net/p/PLFssspwgISv-q8YPgoAg1XNZYw9YbMkJT
Best video on the topic I've seen thus far. Pragmatic and relatable from both the users and makers perspective. Looking forward to more from Graham
Wow Darnell that is very flattering thank you! Graham is a talented man so my job to produce the video was easier hahaha! Next video is coming in the next day or so - stay tuned!
Better said than anyone across the pond here has..well done!
Thanks for watching!
This was great, finally a guy who tells you what you need to know rather than someone who needs to tell you everything they know.
Nice overview, thank you. I make knives as a hobby (108 knives over the last 10 years. I fully agree with you, there is no perfect steel for any application. A German knifemaker, mettalugist, black smith amd author named Roman Landes described it in one of his books. To make a good knife it requires three factors to consider. The purpose / intended use / geometry of the knife. A carving knife is different than a meat cleaver or a wood chooper. The selected steel must be suitable for the intende use. And last but not least the heat treatment must be correct.
For carbon steel knives I like O1, very rarley I used steels like 1095. I make a lot of kitchen knives and my go to steels are niobium allyoed steels like Niolox or some of the US made steels from crucible. They are not easy to finish but allow for a fine edge. Niobium carbides are equally hard as chromium carbides but much much smaller.
Hi Roland thank you for the comment that was an excellent feedback thanks! I love what you said about Roman saying about the factors to consider when picking a steel - we literally are making a second video and will be coming out tomorrow so stay tuned! Glad you enjoyed the video!
I use 5160 as it is the easiest to get a hold of and has the toughness and flexibility for fighting blades. I have been using AEB-L for stainless steel blades and it has been fantastic.
I love listening to people talk in detail about their long term professions/hobbies. There's something so nice about people talking about the thing they love and are knowledgeable on.
We appreciate the comment thank you!
My dad got a few industrial hss saw blades (about 5mm thick) meant for cutting aluminium and made a few knives out of those. No forging, just stock removal (stuff doesn't like to be cut).
After having used these knives of various sizes and shapes for a lot of things I'm convinced this is in fact a superiour material for a lot of applications, compared to what most knives are made of.
They may not be stainless, but they were slightly corrosian resistant, but if you leave one outside in the rain, it will rust. Ask me how I know. I used them in the kitchen and I don't have to wipe them off every cut like you need to with carbon steel, but these knives hold their edge better than any other knifes I got if you treat them well.
And with use I mean abuse in some cases and it just took it all. Chopping thick branches, wrenching tiles out of the ground, chopping firewood etc. only rarely did one chip and only after way too much abuse. The lighter tasks, like in the kitchen, they last forever and held their edge well.
I feel some shame for abusing them like that, but they could take it (and I had a lot of them) and they just got the job done. I wish I could get some more knives from that steel, but all I know is that it scratched steel of about 60 HRC and that the saw blade had "HSS" printed on it.
"HSS" covers a whole range of alloys. HSS just stands for "high speed steel." It's a bit like saying "carbon steel" or "stainless" or "tool steel." You don't really know what you've got, so unfortunately you can't truly to compare it to anything.
I'm glad it worked out well for you, but be careful - that sort of thing is how myths and rumors like "saw blades make good knives" get started. And that's really misleading because not all saw blades are made of the same steel. For instance, lots of old saw blades are made of L6, which really does make excellent knives, but especially nowadays a lot are made of steel that won't harden worth a damn. They just have good-quality steel or carbide tips welded onto them so they'll cut well and last.
After having to learn all this for a materials engineering unit, it's so neat to see someone explaining it all in terms of applications
Though learning how to predict what type of microstructures form based on carbon% and how it's heat treated is pretty neat (e.g. austentite vs cementite vs carbides and then combinations therein)
Though eutectoids are still a bit confusing to me for sure
This is a great and easy to understand explanation of the difference between various types of steels often used in knives, even for people who aren't actually knife makers themselves. Thanks for putting this together!
Thank you for the lovely feedback and happy to hear you enjoyed the vid too! Cheers!
Thank you for that explanation. I appreciate your time in assembling and presenting that material in such a practical format.
Thanks Nelson!
Love guys like this that have a ton of both practical and theoretical knowledge, along with a ton of experience. Would like to see more videos from him talking metallurgy.
Cheers big bear! Don’t forget to watch his series if you are interested in Graham’s work and knowledge 🥳🥳🥳
@@UKBladeshow I will. I've been dying to try my hand at hand forging at home, only prob (in the US), is good anvils are really expensive. I've managed to find a large piece of railroad rail for $60 at a swap/flea market. It weights somehwere between 80-110 lbs for a 16"-18" long section of rail. Hoping it'll work as a makeshift anvil for me.
Current favourite is AEB-L, heat treated by Graham himself, as it's fairly cheap, takes a good edge, I don't need to worry about rust and I only do stock removal. Best knives I've made so far have been this batch of AEB-L ones.
I wish I knew more about AEB-L - seems to be a crowd favourite among makers! Thanks for watching Rob and hopefully you're looking forward to the next set of videos from Graham as I am!
AEB-L was a close second to 14C28N for the stainless category in Larrin Thomas' article on best budget steels at KnifeSteelNerds. He's also got a whole article on the history and design of AEB-L.
Definitely looking forward to more of Graham's knowledge on video :)
I haven't read his book but I've seen his RUclips channel and his videos are super informative!
The videos are great and the book is excellent. Learned a lot reading it
Robany Bigjobz hello mate I hope you don't mind I pinned your comment if that's OK! I also was hoping I can ask you to be a moderator for comments here?
Thank you so much for this video! I am just a knife enthusiast and nobody managed to explain this stuff as well as you did. Really appreciate it!
Thanks!! I appreciate the comment!
Brilliant video. Great to get insight from someone as experienced as Graham. he explains things so well too
Cheers Stephen! I’m happy to hear you enjoyed Graham’s video! If you enjoyed this one, wait until we talk about the science of steel distortion (coming this week)!
This was an absolutely amazing video and the speaker was extremely knowledgeable. This was a masterclass of a presentation and everyone should see this video because it's just that good!
Wow that is very nice of you to leave such a flattering comment! Thank you and we hope to see you on the other videos!
- Vinz
I really like the look of powdered steel. It’s almost like looking at Wootz steel, but with a smaller grain. ❤thanks for sharing the video and your knowledge with us here in RUclips land. Best of luck 🍀🦅🌎⚓️🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸
Thank you as a newer knife maker this has been one of the most informative breakdowns in language that I can understand.
Glad to hear you found it valuable! Thanks for the feedback!
Thank you for not dumbing it down. Too much of the marketing around knives talks about carbon or stainless steel like they're all the same thing.
Thanks for watching!
Very informative video. Powdered metal is amazing stuff and you can do some crazy things with it. Years ago I was working in a foundry that would cast all sorts of odd ball metals but mostly non ferrous. We were once supplied with some special aluminum. This had Been through the ball mill and had silicone and tungsten carbide incorporated in a metal matrix. It was then cast into brake rotors for testing. It turned out very well weight wise and abrasion resistance wise. In fact compared to iron rotors that would be changed out each race these were still good at the end of the season. It was extremely difficult to machine and would consume a brand new tap every couple of holes. These taps were not junk either lasting about 5000 - 8000 holes in regular production. I managed to save a small piece of casting runner and turn it into a knife. It was well worth it as my aluminum knife always gets people who don't believe I can cut cast iron with it.
Hi again dazaspc and thanks for taking time to comment! Interesting topic don’t you think?
There are tons of high alloy carbon tool steels on the market. K390 has way more carbides than 440c and has night and day more wear resistance than 440c. Good simplified explanation of things. I personally like low alloy, high purity, high hardness steels. I like high edge stability along with ease of sharpening. Maintenance is an enjoyable thing for me.
Thank you very much for the heads-up.
Thanks. This is useful. I love my stainless gyuto knife I use when I use to work as a sushi chef
I started using 80CRV2 not too long ago. from using O-1 and 52100. I'm really liking the 80CRV2. Tough stuff with a great edge!
Hi Scott! Thanks for dropping by! 80CRV2 is another popular choice for makers as it’s easy to work with and good performance as well for most type of knives.
Hope to see you in our other vids mate!
- Vinz
I'm a huge fan of 52100. I haven't found anything that is as well rounded as that steel. There are steels that are probably better at one thing or another, but for a hard use knife that will retain an edge and is easy to sharpen when you need to its hard to beat. With the right heat treat with a differentally hardened blade it is down right incredible what you can achieve with 52100.
So I heard as well! Thanks for the comment Casey! 52100 is another industry-standard choice of steel for many makers! I appreciate you taking time to leave a comment so thank you again and hope to see you on our other knife-related videos!
I love 52100 as well. The fine grain structure makes it so easy to get an even finish.
I also enjoy 52100. And I enjoy O1 for all the same reasons. You really can't go wrong either of them.
I’m also moving into 52100 and am encouraged by your comments on it. We’ve used it in shichi mai 7 layers with 1095 and 15n20 but not long enough for comment. Did you find it reasonably corrosion resistant for EDC? I’ve a 1095 pig sticker in a semi-treated leather sheath that I take out every 3 years and it shows no rust.
@@andreoapo7297 I've made personal edc knives out of both 1095 and 52100. The 52100 is much more resistant to rust and staining. I have personally carried a 52100 blade everyday and use it for work as an industrial mechanic/welder and for hunting and fishing here in the rocky mountains and have nothing but praise for the steel and its performance! Rust has never been a issue for me or anyone I've made blades for with 52100. I think its chrome content has alot to do with it, also I have discovered the higher you take your grits while sanding and finishing with a trip to the buffing wheel a 30-45 min etch in ferrric chloride and another quick buff will make it much more impervious to rust. I have no scientific evidence for this finding its just in my experience they seem to resist rust almost like a stainless with this method of finishing. 52100 is a great steel and if you treat it right and learn it's quirks it will serve you well in any application.
Learned a few new things and reinforced a lot of older information. Thanks for the video.
Hi! Thanks for taking time to comment and thank you as well for the appreciation!
That was a brilliant lecture. Thank you!
My take is that for here, in the States, 1099 is the go-to entry level steel for a lot of bladesmiths due to cost, availability, and relative ease of heat treating. Shows like Forged In Fire have created a boom in the hobby, and a lot of the “this is better than that” stances are out there to justify the market, and price points, for easier-to-produce custom knives. The steel that performs for the task the tool is intended for is always the best choice, I feel. My compromise of choice is D2, but I appreciate that everyone has their favorite steel to work with for reasons that make 100% sense to them.
Hi Miki! Thanks for the feedback ! You are correct that every individual will have their own good reason for their choice of steel (as you can probably read here in the comments section)! It’s absolutely fantastic to hear everyone sharing their choice here and also helps me understand why people choose that particular type too! Thanks again and we hope to see you in our other videos!
- Vinz
The funny thing about 1095 is that it's actually trickier to HT properly than people think. You only have about one second to get it from austenizing temp down below the correct quenching temperature, or you're not getting it fully hard. That doesn't sound like a big problem but if you've got the wrong quench oil or it's not pre-heated correctly, you can end up with a substandard HT and not even know it...
I do a lot of butchering and skinning of wild game. For the past several years I have been using a collection of blades produced by Buck in S30V. They hold a fine edge for longer than any other knives that I have used in the past, but when they need to be sharpened, I am on them for 45 minutes or more with progressive grit stones or belts. For work less precise than skinning or boning, I have other edged tools in 1095, 440C, and ATS-34 that work just fine, but don't seem to feature that edge retention. Having said that, those S30V's are not a quarter inch thick at the spine, and if I had to remove very much steel to touch up the edge, I'm certain that 45 minutes could turn into a several hour marathon. I agree that having the right type of steel for the purpose of the knife is more important than just one steel is better than all others for every blade type.
Hi and thanks for that fantastic input! It’s nice to hear from someone who has great experience with what Graham is saying.
Your comment is really appreciated- thanks and hope to see you in our other videos too!
I've got several knives in powdered steels. 3v, S110v, etc. diamond bench stones make quick work of them. it also supposedly cuts the carbides vs taring them out like traditional stones
@@jasonharrison25 I'll give the diamond bench stones a try. Seems like good advice. I have a good quality tungsten carbide V-cutter that I'll sometimes take a few careful passes with combined with drill oil. Seems to knock off some bulk and saves wear and tear on belts in theory.
@@upcycle.outdoorsman9629 Yup diamond makes quick work of nearly all modern steel. Makes the resharpening dilemma a thing of the past.
@@upcycle.outdoorsman9629 those V cutters will for sure rip out the vanadium carbides leaving just the steel behind. this will make it feel sharp but you are leaving a lot of performance on the table. even aluminum oxide and silicone carbide belts are not hard enough to cut the vanadium carbide. only CBN and diamond are hard enough for those super steels. S30v is on the lower end of the super steels and doesn't have much carbides as something like S90V or S110V so you are probably not loosing too much. I'd still give diamond a try. somewhere in the 100-120 grit is good for dull knives, fixing nicks or changing the angle. I like 400 to 600 for maintenance. a clean but slightly toothy edge that is aggressive at cutting but can be maintained within just a few minutes every so often. polished edges don't seem to add much to these steels like plain carbon steels do
A very interesting video of yours.
I’ll have to listen to it again at least once or twice, because there’s so much information in it.
Well done and presented
Cheers
Glad you enjoyed it!
Thank you, great video! Highly knowledgeable and informative, and presented in a way that makes it easy to understand. Thanks again!
Thanks M Jo! 😊
Another entry level Stainless Steel that's fairly new on the market is Silver Fox 100 (SF100). It's virtually identical to AEB-L and is made in Sheffield 😊😊👍. Shop around though - prices seem to be very different between the various steel suppliers but you should be able to get it cheaper than AEB-L.
What so you mean entry level, grinds easier, doesn't heat as much, can you tell us how the martinsite, (if it even is ) is different between plain steels with some traces of manganese, molybdenum, ect, vs, large carbide forming tool die, and hardenable stainless. great stuff though
Is the chromium carbide several orders of magnitude larger too, not that the average Joe can sharpen to that presicion.
my favorite blade is my BK2.
Great news man. I will definitely add it to the list.
Don't be fooled by the price. AEB-L is cheap to sell because its cheap to make, no powder metallurgy, no vanadium used, but in terms of performance its closer to a super steel than to any entry level steel.
Most stainless steels can't be hardened above 60HRC. AEB-L can go up to 64HRC maintaining toughness higher than 1.1416 at 57 HRC.
Its a monster for slicer knives and versatile enough to also be a game changer for impact knives.
Compare it to 1095 on same hardness ( 60HRC). AEB-L is 4 times tougher while at the same time being stainless.
This entire family of steels that use design with precipitation curve to avoid carbide formation are great. AEB-L, 13C26 and 14C28N are my top picks for simple steels (non powdered metallurgy).
I´m a chef( i took classes in metallurgy when i was school, but only got some basic knowledge out of them) and i have a big passion for japanese knives, mostly because i like the overall geometry and handleshape. I personally use blades made of Shirogami 1 (aka paper steel, White Nr.1), VG10 and SPG2/RSG2. In my experience, Shirogami 1(61 HRC) is just amazingly easy to sharpen but it does need a lot of maintenance, SG2 (62HRC) holds a nice edge for quite a while and is relatively easy to sharpen(just dont let it get really dull), VG10 (60 HRC) is my personal nightmare, it stays sharp for a very long time but the sharpening is just a pain in the ass, because the steel give a really poor feedback. I use a butcher steel and a leather strop for touch-ups and for sharpening i use a 400 Naniwa Superstone(not a fan, but i paid for it, so im gonna use it until i need a replacement) ,a 1500 Shapton professional(awesome stone), a 5000 Naniwa Superstone(the superstones get a lot of hate but at 5000 grid and higher is where they start to shine) and a 8000 Naniwa Superstone, followed by a leather strop with some 10000 paste. Just wanted to share my experiences with different steels, from a customer perspective.
Hi jerak02 lovely to hear your experience and thank you for sharing your thoughts on the various steel you use! It’s so interesting to see how everyone sharpens their blade and these kind of information helps all of us in the industry who loves knives!
Maybe might be worth you checking out our series on knife care? Your input will be highly valuable on these: Knife Care and Knife Maintenance for Carbon Steel Knives
ruclips.net/p/PLFssspwgISv8wSSNC74Nn51n5niT8Cary
When you say a steel has a poor feedback, what do you mean? I'm only just poking around the edges of this subject, coming from an outdoors/bushcraft/survival background; although metallurgy has always been a subject which had a certain allure, I've never had occasion to explore it much.
Re: the feedback of steel, does this mean the ability to feel how the edge of the blade is moving across the sharpening medium?
@@aleisterbroley900 you’re spot on. VG 10( at least with the knives that I have) makes it rather difficult to feel the egde on the sharpening stone, unless you have a very thick blade with a very pronounced edge, wich you’re not going to have on a high end kitchen knife
@@jerak02 excellent -- thanks for the reply. It's funny that I was just ruminating on the haptic feedback of a blade making all the difference for me when sharpening, just earlier in the day before watching this video and coming across your comment. Becoming conversant with the different feels of the edge against the stone was the turning point for me in learning to sharpen my knives freehand... Not sure what I'd do if the feedback was dull or nonexistent!
@@DefinitelyNotJ749 the reason for using different grids is to make more efficient use of the knife by taking only as little material as possible, regardless of the time needed , diamond stones are too abrasive in my opinion.I’m not worried about the cost, I just want to use my knife for as long as possible. And the superstones don’t need soaking either.
This is fascinating! Thank you for the wonderful no-nonsense breakdown of the different properties of stainless vs high-carbon steel and the 3 classes of steel. I had never heard of powder metallurgy steel before.
26 seconds in this video, and I’m thinking, this gentleman knows what’s he is talking about.
No proof nether doubts.
Thanks, great video!
Big fan of k720, should be pretty close to O1 and very easy to get for cheap (at least here in Italy).
Cheers!
Hello mate! Thanks for dropping by! I know very little about the K720 - would love to know more about this then (and how it compares to O1). Do you use it mainly on kitchen knives or for everything you do?
@@UKBladeshow According to Böhler, the German manufacturer, is just like O2. I use for pretty much everything but I do mainly kitchen knives. Also with 15n20 for damascus as it etches very dark like you said! I now use 1070-1090 only if I want an hamon as I can't get it to show consistently on k720.
To be fair it's also not the best for mirror finish, it has some kind of a texture to it, but I like it a lot for that too!
Mirror finishing is a nightmare for any type of steel anyway hahaha! I remember one of your videos where you had a mirror finish on a knife - looked great but I bet that took forever to do!
Böhler are based in Austria not Germany 😀
@@BlackBeardProjects K720 is not ideal for hamons because of it's high hardenability or alloying that makes it so easy to harden properly. I even tried and succeeded at hardening k720 without oil in 1.5 to 2mm thickness using actively cooled cooling plates. This can be easily verified checking K720 CCT chart in its datasheet. For hamon you need less alloyed steels, such as 1095 or w1/w2 (Bohler K990 for example)
Good info thank you. Ive been making knives a little over a year now and I find my favorites are O1 and 440C. 1095 and aebl warp too easily in hardening in my experience. I trypically use O1 for outdoor use knives and 440C for cutlery knives.
Hi Mike! Lovely to hear your comments thanks for sharing! 01 really is a popular choice for high end knife makers! Hopefully the video was insightful and glad to hear you enjoyed the video too!
I'd recommend plate quenching with AEBL, or any stainless really. There's no real reason not to given the time needed to get them past the nose on the TTT curves.
O1 is utter garbage. Awful edge retention, no corrosion resistance, decent toughness. 14C28N knocks it out of the park on all counts.
@@magnanova 🤷♂️ O1 works great for me. Use it in all my hunting knives. To each his own
@@magnanova I'd disagree with that as a blanket statement. It's often recommended as being good for beginners and in reality it's not. It needs careful HT in a kiln, not a forge.
This needs promoting!!!
Thank you for sharing your expertise and experience. This was very easy to understand.
Hi Eddie thanks for the feedback and glad to hear you found Graham’s video valuable!
- Vinz
I enjoyed this, even though I often prefer 1095 carbon and he shat all over carbon, he explained why with out any vitriol.
My normal policy is carbon on the belt and stainless in the kitchen.
I know there are better steels out there but the ease of maintaining the edge at the end of a long day matters to me. Rust doesn't bother me, I have other items that need oiled often.
Hi Merkin I do agree with you a lot! I am personally more pf a carbon steel guy because I like pretty patinas! Thanks for dropping a comment and I hope you’ll enjoy the other content we put out as well!
@@UKBladeshow I cant blame you there, even though it isn't something I do with my blades, it looks cool.
I tend to leave mine coated or blue them but they are an everydaybutility tool in my eyes. Which is why the toughness, ease of maintenance, and cost efficiency (replaceable) is why it stays in use. Plus a fixed 5" carbon blade with a good grind will handle 99% of any possible (even unusual) tasks.
Well I will have to go take a look at the backcatalog wont I....
Try 5160
Same for me. I prefer 1095 carbon for my work horses (pocket, bushcraft, skinning). I don't need it to keep the edge 4x as long when I can easily sharpen it in seconds and out in the woods compared to having another be a pain in the ass to sharpen. And all my 1095s have come powder coated, I've never had an issue with rust (and I live in Florida where humidity is always high, the air is always damp and suffocating). But I'd never dream of replacing my Shun's in the kitchen with carbon. The title of this video is mislabeled, as every knife has its place according to the needs and abilities of the individual. There is no "one steel" to rule them all.
@@jessebond4221 thanks for your response, in comparison to staight 1095 it has some additives that inprove toughness, and is a standard alloy for military riffle barrels. I do not know the hundreds of alloys out thare. But it is interesting tha the new cpm magnacut is a carbon steel tweeked to have stainless properties
Having been in the sheet metal industry for 10+ years, I can say with certainty stainless steel was friggin sharp!
Stainless steel is so hard and dense it was a PITA compared to mild steel and aluminium.
I have seen so many injuries with thin stainless steel parts/scrap.Even though the metals i worked with were low carbon I believe stainless steels are best for knives on the upper end, AEBL FTW!
Thanks for clearing the air on this issue.
Hi Daniel! You are very welcome! Thanks for the comment and speak again soon!
Great, simple, not in the weeds explanation of steels and knife metallurgy. Thanks.
Thanks Byron!
The knife I have that holds the edge the longest(thank god) is one with s30v steel, which is powdered sintered steel. I say thank god because it takes forever to sharpen.
Hi Richard. Thanks for the comment! Maybe this also adds to Graham’s evidence that s/steel keeps itself sharper longer, but it also means harder to sharpen
My family has inherited the secret of Damascus steel, but my father, who owns the secret, is not even interested in forging swords
I'm not a meteorologist, but for my outdoor knives I prefer CPM3V steel, it's not stainless, but also not hard to keep clean. It holds an edge for a long time and I can sharpen it just fine on ceramic wet and go whetstones and leather strops with compound.
Think your spell checker needs attention; metallurgist not weather man 😀
@@petemulhearn7787 Correct you are, thank you.
Absolutely love the channel!.Working with powder steels is just wonderfull. Difference between M390 and Niolox was like day and night. It took like 3 or 4x as much sandpaper to get a nice satin on niolox. Felt like sanding carbide
thorough and clear. thank you for the explanation!
Cheers Daniel! Happy to hear you've enjoyed the video! Check out the part 2 of this series which is already out too for viewing! Your feedback is always appreciated!
i like to use K720 (O2) from carbon, and N690, RWL34 (ATS34) stainless.. have a nice day, thanx for educational video content
Hello Marko thanks for watching mate! This K720 sounds very interesting! I will do a little bit of research on this myself! What type of knives do you usually make?
@@UKBladeshow usualy kitchen and folding knives
Forgive me if we are already connected, but I would love to see some of your work Marko! Please follow us on Instagram as well @ukbladeshow
My favorite steels right now are Elmax, K390 and CPM 154. Obviously I am a user and not a knife maker, but those have been very good use steels for me.
Elmax for stainless sharpness. K390 for non-stainless (but still pretty decent with patina) edge retention cutting abuse. And CPM 154 is highly underrated IMO for overall use, ease of getting a great edge and keeping a great edge with stropping.
Thanks for sharing Daniel!
I don't even make knives. I just wanted to know what kind of steel should I choose for a good kitchen knife and Graham clearly knows his shit, because his explanation was super easy to understand. Stainless steel it is, even if it takes longer to sharpen. I'm willing to make the compromise.
Haha thanks Juan Jose!
Interesting to hear it broken down that way, I've always preferred to *use* stainless knives as after the initial sharpening process they just required basic maintenance to hold an edge. While I may be aware of the chemical composition of the alloy it's nice to hear it explained from the metallurgy standpoint.
Hello from out in the colonies
My biggest choice of steels comes down to basically a few factors- customer demand and steel for the job
I'm not selling to super-knife nerd types, just professional cooks and home users for the most part and there's still a pretty heavy bias there to the carbon steel knives because they can maintain and sharpen them easily enough. My go to there for kitchen knives is 26C3, its extremely hard, its got good edge stability and its not inordinately hard to get razor sharp. Plus I can do some forging on it and still get an interesting product out of the other end.... sometimes :)
Stainless though is my preferred steel to make cutlery out of, mostly 440C and N690 which are generally available for a good price and produce a good, baseline product that's better than a lot of commercial products. I am giving the SF100 a look in from GFS just to see how it turns out, if I like it and people like it, I'll buy more.
I've done a lot of toe-dipping into the D-series steels, the high-alloy, mid carbon steels and powder metal steels as well. They're all really excellent if you find the right fit for them and its not necessarily in kitchen cutlery either. Sometimes a knife just has to be really damn tough or have that edge holding for months on end- so you pick and choose to suit its purpose, but at a much increased material cost, sometimes the processing is more difficult and not everyone wants to pay the big bucks for a knife they need diamond plates to sharpen it on. So that does affect my direction a lot there as much as it does commercial manufacturers.
Personally in my kitchen, I use N690, A2, 26C3, D6 and S35VN blades.
Where are you getting your 440C? I bought a couple bars about ten years ago and it was absolute garbage. The big visible lumps of carbides/carbide banding were worse than any D2 I've ever seen, and D2 is famous for that. The finer I sanded it, the worse it looked. It was really disappointing. Around the same time I found similar problems with new 154CM.
The only explanation I ever got for that was that quality had simply dropped off over the years, and some mills were just sort of slapping it together in a hurry. I've seen plenty knives made of 440C and 154CM from back in the 70s 80s and 90s, and that just was not an issue with the old stock.
So after that I just stuck with CPM-154 for those types of knives and never had any problems at all.
(it's kind of funny how both 440C and 154CM were considered "Super Steels" in their heyday, and now they're both just seen as pedestrian ordinary stuff LOL)
@@dogslobbergardens6606 Yep time marches on and metallurgy is certainly no stranger to that. I've also heard of 154CM being prone to having inclusions in their bar stock, but I've never seen it myself and take that for what you will.
The CPM154 is a much pricier material too but it always seemed to be worth it for the finer quality melt, the other alternative is the Bohler N695 which is 'more or less' 440C as much as it matters and will be a good steel from them. Only two places I've known who will back up their material with a guarantee are Artisan Supplies in Aust and Alpha Knife in the USA.
(I'm sure others will if you ask, but those two I've had good dealings with)
Stainless is starting to get harder to find over the last 18months at good prices for the mid-range stuff like 440C, N690 and 14C28N, so I'm keen to see how well the SF100 works just doing a test run on it over the next month before I sink big cash into sheets of it.
@@krissteel4074 yeah... steel prices... the tarriffs situation in the US a few years ago pretty much got me out of the knife biz and it's only gotten worse since then.
I agree, I never had any problems with any CPM or other powder metallurgy steels. The very process avoids all those issues. You do pay for it, but that's how it goes.
maybe i missed it but did you mention how you feel about modern high carbon powdered steel? for example toshiba makes the aogami super blue carbon steel. this is used by some of the top blacksmiths of japan for kitchen knives.
Hi! You are right, Graham didn’t mention the new-school steels like the super blue but I heard wonderful things about these! I will do some research myself on the topic and see whether it’d be a good subject to discuss on one of our videos perhaps 🤔
Thanks again!
Thank you for the steel explanation.
Graham is the man! We want more Graham! Thanks again.
Thanks again John! More Graham videos in this playlist if you fancy binge-watching the main man: ruclips.net/p/PLFssspwgISv-q8YPgoAg1XNZYw9YbMkJT
Thank you for this - a lot of great info, easy to digest! I‘ve been working with Niolox a lot lately and I love the way it turns out as soon as the knives are finished. The grinding though is a serious pita…
I ordered a stack of CPM Magnacut yesterday and a set of fresh belts - you just lowered my expectations on how long they are going to last.
Out of your experience - which belts do you use for these kind of steels? Cubitron 2, or are there any that won‘t burn as deep of a hole into my pocket?
Hi again Alp 77. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and feedback on the video!
I want to personally learn more about the contents of CPM Magnacut so I can understand more about how to remove stock from it. I will find a datasheet for it and get back to you. Maybe I can add it to my next video on abrasive belts like you requested perhaps?
Also, would love to hear your experience on grinding Magnacut as I would love to learn more about it too!
With regards to your question on other belts to consider - there are loads of good ones out there and every single belt has its pros and cons (including the Cubitron II). If you want a cheaper belt with decent performance, the Norton R929 (available from GFS Knife Supplies) works fantastic at a fraction of the cost of the 3M Cubitron II. They are also a “friable” ceramic grain meaning they break down to produce a fresh new cut with little pressure so you get a fantastic cut rate without too much fatigue in return! It also doesn’t leave heavy scratch marks compared to other ceramic belts so it’s a great alternative to try! But again, it depends on your objective and what improvements you want to make from your current process (is it speed pf stock removal? Is it less hand sanding you want to achieve? Does your belt grinder have the hp to run a ceramic belt?)
@@UKBladeshow Now thank you for replying in such detail!
My batch of Magnacut should arrive tomorrow.
I normally tend to profile grind, HT, then grind out thin. This worked perfectly on my carbon steel knives while on Niolox already there are problems coming up. In the early bulk removal I am wasting belts like crazy. Even with high pressure VSM Ceramics I‘ll easily need two to three 36 grit belts per side on a santoku sized blade. Your video on abrasives encouraged me to speed up my belt and crank the pressure which really made a difference but then I‘ll still battle cooling the steel enough. I added a mist cooling system which gives me about 30-50% more time on the belt between cooling. To sum it up I‘ll need at least five full hours for the bulk grind compared to maybe 45 minutes to an hour on a simple carbon blade. That’s a big challenge for my patience 😅
The next thing is the amount of steps to get to my desired finish. Right now I‘m doing 36+ cub2 or 36 VSM Ceramics, then 60, 80, 120, 240 VSM Ceramics then switch to Trizact 160, 100… the smaller steps I take the less time I spend on a single grit. Still there are always some scratches that make me go back two or even three steps to get them out comfortably.
It would be of huge help to piece together a set of belts for the more demanding steels that could help me win some time…
@@alp7778 Doubtless you are keeping a bit of thickness before HT to avoid warping of feathering during the HT process. Out of interest, how thick do you keep it as a minimum? I know it's not a purist solution, but have you considered an intermediate bevel at something a like a third wider angle than the primary and two thirds less than the final bevel, to avoid the need to grind a lot off the wide primary bevel faces?
Good reply! There's many ways to arrive at the same goal. I'm very interested in experiments.
I'm sorry this fellow is fighting time and wearing his patience thin! The fastest grinding of knives is done with AEB-L as it's easiest to grind. Tough, but not the highest ( or lowest) edge holding.
I'm putting together steel alloy bars now then next is Belts and grinder. I want three horsepower, but even two is more than double better than one horse. This week I got in double clad laminated steel CTS XHP core jacketed by AEB-L. And 26C3 jacketed by 410. By the weekend I will have Terrivantium 365. It's a non steel Cobalt alloy blade material and one doesn't heat treat it. It's a 40 HRc matrix with tons of hard particles in it like carbides which do the cutting with a toothy edge which isn't particularly sharp, but lasting. Great for people who don't maintain knives ( don't clean and oil or sharpen their knives) since it doesn't rust and those folks are used to less than sharp knives ( UGGHH!)
@@kit6357 depends… My Niolox stock is 2,1mm so I do the whole grinding after HT. Still warping is an issue though - just ground out a blade that developed warp mid grind. I usually straighten with a carbide hammer and grind out the marks.
On thicker stock I‘ll grind up to 80% leaving a bit more margin on straight carbon steels as opposed to stainless.
Personally I enjoy working with AEBL. Very easy to work with, better edge retention than carbon steel, the toughest stainless available, cheap, and with a minimum amount of effort you really don't have to worry about rust.
AEBL seems to be an extremely popular choice for stainless steel knife makers! Thanks for the comment and I hope you enjoyed the video! We have more of these videos coming next week so please stay tuned! 🍻
Very much worth watching. Thanks Graham.
Glad you enjoyed it!
-Vinz
My favorite knives are 5160 and 1070 1080 I also love 80cv which I've been told is really 1080 with some additives.
My folders I really like 14c28n and xhp.
I've spent my whole life with steel tools I'm a diesel mechanic and welder. I find if you use your tools nothing rusts.
My grandfather was a tool an die maker. So I have a basic understanding of steels. My grandfather showed me what properly hardened steel can do and how to hard can break. Everything has a give or take.
I find nowadays we get less for more money. I think production knives are going the wrong way. Like cold steel selling 4034 which is 420 for $200 is crazy.
I want CTS XHP too! If Lynn c Thompson could have bought more, he'd still be making knives with it!
Hi 👋 thanks for the comprehensive feedback and I appreciate you sharing your choices of steel! I 100% agree with you that your tools do not rust (in practical terms) when used regularly. I’m the opposite of Graham (I like carbon steels) and other than the patina they create, I do not have rust issues with my knives.
Thanks again for watching and I hope you enjoyed the content we put out!
First comment I've seen that mentions 5160. Maybe I'm keeping it too simple, but spring steel suits my knife making needs just fine.
Great video. I appreciate the perspective of a metallurgist. I’m hoping you might weigh in on the SS with nickel.
I heard you talking about SS with chromium but not nickel. 440C, 154CM both add nickel which I think reduces harden ability and increases abrasion resistance. Unless a blade is used around saltwater or the lazy kitchen person I’m not a fan of either.
I use D2 (considered a semi-stainless containing the 12% chromium you are talking about) for hunting blades but will convert to CPM D2 for the upcoming decades. I had a customer baton my blade through deer legs and complained about chipping. Hahahah. You can imagine the conversation. He has since ordered another knife and knowing his intended use, he is getting O1 ht to 58 RC (tested on my Starrett hardness tester).
I am very interested in converting my O1 stock into 52100 but again am wondering about your take on the difference between the two since 52100 has a small amount of chromium.
Thank you again for the video and I’ll be subscribing and waiting for more videos.
Hi JC Knives! Very happy to hear you enjoyed the video! I don’t know the answer directly to your question (52100 vs O1) but hopefully we’ll get someone on the comments may weigh in on this? I will also speak with Graham soon but he’s still recovering from his knee surgery.
Thanks again for the comment and hope to see you in our other videos!
- Vinz
Nickel INCREASES hardenability, as do chromium, molybdenum, vanadium and manganese. The small amounts used for hardening purposes (like a couple percent by weight, usually) don't necessarily make the steel any harder, but they definitely don't make it softer if that's what you're thinking. It mainly has to do with them giving you more time to quench the steel properly once it's reached the proper temperature. That means you have a greater chance of getting the piece fully hardened without breaking.
In larger amounts those alloying elements form carbides if there's enough free carbon in the steel, and those carbides are much harder than the steel itself.
@@dogslobbergardens6606 great reply. Thank you.
I am wondering why they aren’t more popular if you get increased harden ability and strength. It would seem that blade performance (cutting ability) would increase.
The research I have seen is that steel with nickel seems to loose cutting performance.
I am acutely aware of give and take one characteristic for another. Example 52100 has far better ductility and cutting performance but even with a small amount of Cr is prone to oxidation. 154 CM is far more oxidation resistant is more brittle and cutting performance is good but not up to 52100 performance.
My source is Knife Steel Nerds
knifesteelnerds.com/2021/10/19/knife-steels-rated-by-a-metallurgist-toughness-edge-retention-and-corrosion-resistance/
@@UKBladeshow If you like O1 you'll like 52100, and vice versa. I've made a bunch of knives with both of them. In a blind Pepsi challenge, I sincerely doubt most people could ever really tell the difference between the two in a knife blade. They both grind the same, they both can get plenty hard, they both take wonderful crisp edges, they both hold an edge the same at the same Rc values, and they both patina or rust the same. They'll both throw sparks with a firesteel and they're both easy to sharpen. They're both very tough and they both have lovely fine grain when HT'ed properly.
They're both excellent choices for "carbon" steel knives! Especially in survival and bushcraft knives; people in those markets are generally familiar with both and like both. But they both make excellent kitchen cutlery, too. You can't really go wrong with either of them.
In industry the slightly higher chromium content in 52100 is preferred over O1 for bearings and stuff like that, because it resists heat and wear SLIGHTLY better than O1, without spending a lot more on "stainless" steels. In a knife blade it's honestly not enough difference to matter.
O1 has 1.1% manganese, 0.6% chrome, and 0.6% tungsten.
52100 has .45% manganese max, 1.6% chrome max, and no tungsten.
For our purposes, that basically "six of one, half a dozen of the other." Use either or both and you'll get the same good results. For whatever reason, 52100 barstock is often less expensive than O1 in America, so go ahead and try some if you're a maker.
Awesome to have some legitimate backing behind what I’ve felt for years from my own experience building knives.
There’s a lot of talk in the industry that leaks to the consumer so you can build stainless all your life but you’ll never sell to that market that’s convinced they want a carbon steel knife. It’s also cheaper, and some folks (like myself) do appreciate a nice patina.
Personally, I make both.
Very interesting! Right now I use steel that I find and upcycle it. I plan on buying some steel and will use this to help with that design
Very intriguing! I can’t say I’m entirely converted though as my carbon knives certainly hold an edge longer than the stainless and they are actually harder based on the HRC specs and how they behave during use.
Maybe this video’s hypothesis does not apply to the Japanese Hitachi carbon steels? The steels you referred to in this video I have never heard of but I’m certainly no expert either.
Stating the obvious: I’m just a home cook with a few knives
Hi Benjamin! You're exactly my target audience so love to hear you're watching our video! I do love carbon steel myself (over stainless, for various reasons) so I do agree with you. My 80CRV2 Gyuto lasts quite a long time compared to my stainless version but again, it's not an O1 tool steel like Graham said. To each their own really.
Hope to see you on our other videos as well bud! Cheers!
It really depends which two steels you are comparing. Comparing a high grade carbon steel to a common stainless for example. Regular kitchen knives are frequently made out of 420 stainless, a cheap stainless steel that can be forged, stamped and worked without much wear on your equipment. It only contains .2% carbon and 12% chromium (bare minimum for stainless). It does harden, but only to 52HRC. Even comparing carbon steels can be a world of difference. Medium carbon grades (0,5%) or high carbon (1%).
So ask yourself. Are you comparing equivalent steels or are you comparing a high carbon knife to Ikea $10 knives?
@@patrickd9551 On the stainless side let’s say Kai Shun which has a VG max steel with 61 HRC according to the maker, compared to an average Shirogami #1 which is 63 HRC, my FT is treated even harder than that.
I believe this comparison is kind of fair from the consumer point of view. In general though I don’t see any stainless going above 61 with the exception of powder steel but you may be right and it is selection bias.
I prefer Carbon Steel kitchen knives, I do have a Stainless 6” chefs knife as a knockabout cut anything leave dirty knife. I have no justification, that’s just what I have used for fifty years and I like being able to sharpen them in a couple of touches on a fine steel. Pissballing about trying to get a stainless knife where it needs to be will take five minutes !
Nitro-V is another “AEB-L+” recipe. They are similar enough that Professional heat treaters run them together, only difference I could tell from both ran together was 61 vs 60 hrc for the nitrov vs the aebl. I honestly think you could run the aebl at 61 and get essentially the same result. Now maybe the nitrov has more toughness around the 63-64 hrc range, I can’t speak to that though, I always run it 60/61 without any issue.
One other “class” might be something g like 3V. I had some heat treated to 60/61 hrc and I couldn’t get it to take an acid etch, stainless as far as I’m concerned. It was brutal to grind, do not miss that😂 it has insane toughness, enough that you can run it quite hard and still be tougher than stuff like D2, only really bested in toughness by the l6 s7 stuff, but it can be ran up quite a bit harder. Interesting stuff for sure, like a grotesque love child of D2 and aebl.
Hi Colson thanks for the fantastic and comprehensive feedback! I appreciate you sharing your story on your experience with Nitro-V!
Hope to see you again in our other videos!
- Vinz
I really like CPM-3V. It seems to do best for me right at 60Rc, some people prefer it at 62Rc. Still very, very tough and holds an edge really well. But it sure does suck to grind and sharpen.
I can tell you from experience that 3V WILL rust... eventually. It takes a while, and it gets really ugly. It doesn't patina or get an even coat of rust like a simple alloy; for reasons I can't explain it just gets nasty pits here and there. Sort of like D2 does. So in practical use I would call it "stain-resistant" but not really stainless (of course, very few cutlery steels are truly stain-free anyway).
If you love'/hate 3V for those reasons, try Elmax. It has a lot of the toughness, a little better edge-holding, and notably better stain-resistance. But you will not like grinding it one bit ;)
Overall if I had to pick only one alloy I'd be quite happy with AEB-L. Inexpensive, easy to grind, easy to sharpen, easy to HT, tough like a "carbon" steel but corrosion-resistant like a "stainless" steel. Nitro-V would probably suit me just fine as well.
@@dogslobbergardens6606 I was always taught "Stainless" is just that... It's stain-less not stain-proof, any steel with rust if enough time and the proper conditions are present
@@anthonybarker9123 yeah, pretty much. You can find some really exotic stuff, but it's all still mostly iron.
Even non-hardenable "stainless" steels with barely any carbon in them will rust if you abuse them enough.
Old school 5160 for me. Excellent edge retention, easily sharpened, and a little oil now and again. 😎👍🍻
Thanks for sharing Richard!
@@UKBladeshow love your page🍻😎🇿🇦
As an old knife user and enthusiast I like Cruwear, 3v, 1095, 14c28n, aebl, and at last 12c27. Never had magnacut so there is a chance to add it somewhere into my list.
The completely unnecessary high amounts of chromium added to knives for the “throw it in the dishwasher” crowd make those knives much more difficult and less pleasurable to sharpen. I only have one high carbon knife (white #2 steel) and I spend 5 times longer soaking the stones than the actual sharpening process takes. A very good option would be a “semi stainless” steel with about 4% chromium. Still easy to sharpen and will not react as quickly. I believe Konosuke are big into this type of steel.
Oooooo that sounds like an interesting take on sharpening thanks for sharing!
Not a formula, just an indication of how quickly a knife with no chromium sharpens up. I’ll take sharpen ability over extreme hardness every day. The extreme example being the non user serviceable ceramic knives.
I disagree somewhat, simply because the "throw it in the dishwasher crowd" are almost all buying cheap factory knives that are tempered so soft you can just about sharpen them with a brick. And you have to do so nearly every time you use them. They're ground after HT and they've been tempered way back to save wear'n'tear on the factory's grinding wheels.
Naturally that does give you problems sooner or later, because you end up with little lumps of carbides on the edge as you grind back the steel matrix. I suspect that's at least partly where the whole thing about "You can't get a good edge on stainless steel" came from.
In my experience the people who buy CPM-154, Elmax and similar high-alloy kitchen knives, at least in the handmade/custom realm, are NOT just throwing them in the dishwasher, and they have diamond stones etc for sharpening. They want the high wear-resistance more than the corrosion resistance, and to them the trade off of sharpening taking longer is worth it.
I do agree that "semi-stain-resistant" alloys make a lot of sense.
@@trappenweisseguy27 you actually can have both sharpenability and extreme hardness. A knife made of a simple alloy like O1 at 65Rc will hold an edge a very long time, but you can still sharpen it with natural stones or waterstones. The best application for that is in the kitchen or in a straight razor, and in razors and most kitchen knives you want the edge ground real thin to begin with. That makes honing and sharpening a lot easier too, compared to the same steel and HT with a big thick "survival knife" type edge. There's just less steel there to grind away.
The swedes use lots of semi-stainless steels like for the mora knivs.
Totally agree with this. If all you're interested in is the performance of a knife, there's no reason to choose anything other than stainless. Personally I like RWL34, which even grinds relatively easily. But stainless doesn't patina like carbon, it's harder to sharpen...and so on. The important thing if you're having someone make you a custom knife is to know what you're getting and to understand there's no such thing as the 'best' steel.
Hi Skunkworks! Thanks for the comment and feedback! I echo your sentiments. A lot of people think that there’s one steel to rule them all but the truth is there’s a lot more to do that. I hope you’ll enjoy the other knife-making related videos we put out as well! Thanks!
There'll never be a single alloy much less the blade geometry and thermal cycles for every knife & every use. No one alloy is measurably over every other for every use!!! Just the fact of user preference for sharprnability takes edge holding steels off the table.
What hardness is the RWL34 often treated to?
@@sacoto98 I follow the damasteel HT guide to get around 62, though they also recommend cryo for full hardness so in reality I'm probably getting 59-60. They advertise up to 64 as being possible.
@@SkunkworksProps thanks! Is there anyway I can test the HRC of an already nade knife?
I really like s30vn, s35vn, magnacut, and for budget 14c28n, with magnacut being my favorite. Everyone complaining about ease of sharpening on harder metals, get better stones or plates. Use the proper tool for the job you spent the money for the high end steel so, spend the money to maintain it. There is nothing like the feel of the glide of a blade acrossed a good stone. I really like the shapton kuromaku stones they are fantastic for any metal no matter the hardness
Thank you! This video was very educational! Big help for a beginner knife maker!🤘😎👍
You’re very welcome! Please feel free to check out another beginner knife maker (me hahaha), make my first ever forged blade: ruclips.net/video/l521LSDWq7I/видео.html
What a fabulously well informed metallurgist...as this man is of course " more" than a knife maker. Curious though, I 've heard no mention of nickel in these alloys. Can't nickel help with both hardness & non - corrosion?
Hi FlatlandMando thanks for the appreciation and lovely to hear you enjoyed the video! I have had a few people now ask about Nickel-content on steel so I will probably make a video on this too! Thanks!
Yes indeed. For instance, a small amount of nickel is what makes 15N20 and "saw blade steels" like L6 an improvement over alloys like O1 and 1095.
15N20 and L6 make very nice knives on their own, and pattern-welders often use them as the "bright" part of "damascus" steels because they resist the etching and don't turn black.
for clarity - neither 15N20 nor L6 are "stainless" by any means. They WILL corrode like other "carbon" steels in just a slightly longer time. But they resist the etching enough that "damascus" makers take advantage of the difference compared to things like O1 and 1084.
Thank you, Sir.
You’re very welcome from me and Graham! 🍻 I hope you found the video insightful!
Hello, Graham. Your show brings to mind many fascinating hours in the lunch room talking about metal work with a very knowledgable and approachable foreman: no need for palaver, just straight into the subject. I'm happy to have stumbled across this site. Best wishes from the Great Southern Land of sharks, snakes and spiders.
I could listen hours and hours how you talking about steel super interesting great job 🙏🏽🙏🏽
Cheers Phillip!
I'll take plain 5160 with a heat treat over everything.
🥳🥳🥳
What, a knife maker who starts off plugging his business and course and then says no one else knows what they're doing? Say it ain't so.
O1 is one of my go-to steels for working knives. Anything from 3inch blades up to about 6 inches for general purpose everyday or field use.
My absolute 2 favorite carbon steels to use is 52100 and O1, and favorite stainless steel for my use and purpose AEB-L. Thanks for the video, you have a new subscriber!
But all steels are carbon steels. Steel, by definition, is iron plus carbon.
The most informative video i have ever seen on this subject. WOW!
Super thanks for that lovely comment Jeannine! I hope you’ll enjoy the other content we put out there too! Thanks for watching!
Great presentation, really informative! Thanks :)
Cheers for the comment!
Excellent vid, plain and simple, that's what I get the most out of.
Hi Jim! Thanks for the comment and glad you found value in the vid! Cheers!
- Vinz
Brilliant! I love a youtube video that is entertaining while being extremely informative. I've made quite a few knives out of 1084, but only because it's extremely easy to heat treat. I own a lot of knives made out everything from carbon to CPM steels. Great to understand the distinctions on a more profound level.
Thank you for the lovely feedback! Please feel free to shoutout any topics that you feel you would love to know more about and we’ll do our best to make content around it! Cheers!
- Vinz
Thank you, this was extremely informative!
You’re very welcome! I hope you also enjoyed the other videos that we make. Thanks for watching.
1084 is my favorite. Heats easily and is easy to work. Might need more regular sharpening but it also sharpens fast. In the field that isn't too big a problem to manage.
I've been to Graham's forge for a day course last year, well worth it and I had a fantastic time.
Very clear. Thank you
Hi Lawrence you’re very welcome!
Hello Graham,
I did enjoy your presentation on steels, and their various applications. As a retired toolmaker, I have used various grades of alloy and tool steels. Poor heat treatment of steels, brings about the bad reputations that some carry. I too like O1 for various applications in short run blanking dies, and a few knives that fall under the heading of “government jobs”.