Wootz 'Damascus' steel: Dr. Alan Williams and blades from the Wallace Collection
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- Опубликовано: 23 июл 2024
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This was just absolutely brilliant. I was enthralled the whole way through. Thanks heaps for sharing this with us Matt!
Agreed more vids like this. :)
Shadiversity wow shads here? this is like seeing sylvester stalone in the cinema to watch terminater...
I guess you are sarcastic; or better I hope so.
It was horrible!
Is there some sort of animosity between you and Matt? I rarely see your channels trading comments
@@bogiberson2558 very late and you probably know by now but Shad is not an expert and really only has a shallow knowledge of history often spreading mistruths to his subscribers while Matt is a dedicated historian/archeologists who has to deal with many of those misconceptions being spread while also getting a smaller audience
Edit: there isn’t really animosity tho maybe frustration
Isis and Damascus; welcome to all our new NSA viewers out there! waves :-)
With roughly only 10% of their collection analyzed in this way. A lot of room is left for some interesting discoveries and surprises. That's pretty exciting.
What I like about this is the combination of what is practical/theoretical usage knowledge in Matt's case and the theoretical/metallurgical experimental knowledge from Dr. Williams. It's a nice blend of scholarly and experimental approaches.
Man at Arms recently did a video in which they recreate an Ulfberht with a lot of older techniques (using modern tech to speed it up at some points), and you can see how much effort is needed to create crucible steel with older techniques. They actually mess up their first attempt, which is incredibly rare for them.
Love these interviews with professionals/academics! Thanks so much Matt!
"This is Britains neutron source" "It's only a model" "Shhhh"
What is this -- a neutron source for ants!?
Never-mind, we won't go to the neutron source. It's a silly place. 8-)
'Tis a silly place.
It could be studied by an African neutron source!
I love neutron sauce on my AMD chips
Neutrons and fencing, utterly cool! Thanks.
This is some really wonderful and fascinating research that is being conducted! Thank you Matt for sharing it with us; it is easy to categorize swords and or start making from one region as being very monolithic, but of course as with anything that has centuries of history to cover there are many surprising variations abound!
Seriously interesting.
Thank you Matt
Posted on my birthday no less. Superb vid Tyvm for sharing
Dr. Alan Williams's Knight & Blast Furnace is always my favorite source. He had done a seriously research about armor & firearm from early middle age to early modern age.
I love this content and I hope to see more like it. There's very few channels on youtube that actually interview experts working in the field, unfortunately. Ian from Forgotten Weapons (who I also support on patreon) often consults experts for his videos but they never appear personally in the videos.
I love Ian, his work is always insightful, even with a weapon I'm familiar with he comes out with something I didn't know half the time. I'm a sucker for dry wit as well.
Great video! I love seeing you do these 'on location' videos, Matt.
Fascinating, Matt. I've read many of Dr. Williams' papers and it was a delight to watch this.
More like this please! Would love to see the molecular structure of the wootz in comparison to other types. Science is awesome 😁
Fascinating! I love hearing about metallurgy, especially relating to swords.
Absolutely fascinating Matt, thank you.
damn. Alan Williams? That's one celebrity when it comes to online discussions
This is absolutely fascinating! Love it!
OMG Alan Williams!
When will you post a 3 hour conversation between you, Capwell, Williams and LaSpina?
Hey, how can I upvote this 500 times?
Geek fest!!! Totally would watch that!
I could listen to Dr. Alan Williams for hours.
I get to learn how to make wootz from Ric Furrer this summer!
Uh oh. Katana fanboys won't be happy. Great video, Mat.
If Trump can ignore facts so can we! :P
Yes, that bit was music to Matt's ears, I'm sure. :D
He was in the Ulfberht Video wasn't he?
Yes.
Interesting video Matt. Thanks. Updates as time goes by would be great.
Hi Matt, any thoughts on the helmet tests Skallagrim's been doing? I'd be really interested to hear your opinion on the topic.
Why?
Very interesting
Dr Williams certainly didn't sit on the fence about what he thinks are the better blades
Definitely something to check out if I ever visit England.
I was able to pick up a Damascus sword (not from Damascus) but in Afghanistan. The layers can be seen clearly. I have heard of the quite famous Wallace collection. Thank you
loved ur guys' interaction : " ) great vid
This was a really interesting video, I'd love it if you could arrange something to go into more depth, maybe bring in some examples, tell how this and that part is made out of certain steel and iron, and how that might alter its performance
Thank you for a very interesting video! It did send me looking for the related literature (something that I am glad for) :)
Very informative video. I'm looking forward to future results of neutron bombardment of more antique weapons
Wonderfully interesting video! Idea about katar's reverse metallurgy - would iron be better then steel for making parries esp. for a momentary holding of a blade? Katar is basically for thrusts. correct?
Blacksmith Ric Furrer can make traditional wootz. He did destructive testing on an old worn out blade.
Great video!
Nice work Matt. I was amazed about the story of the Cathars?? having iron edges. That is a bit of a miracle isn't it.
Love the video, however, when dr. Williams mentioned the polish of the sword I couldn't help it but to notice how shiny the top of Matt's head is. :)
He's trying to hid his wootz pattern on his head. 8-P
what a brilliant video. Well done Matt for doing the stunning interview of the legendary Dr Williams. I am fascinated by his research into medieval metallurgy. An important point that I think Dr Williams makes, is that it is an unfair comparison to make between a modern reproduction of a medieval european hardened and tempered blade, to historical swords of other cultures. A claim often made by Katana 'haters' (of which I used to be one) is that 'medieval European swords are springier and tougher than katanas,' well that probably is not true for actual historical medieval european swords, many of which weren't even heat treated, or at best slack quenched.
Very insightful.
I want to know if there were plans to bring the Wootz Damascus pattern out from under the polished blades, and if so I'd like to see the result.
Is there any thought to acid treat the blades to reveal the watering? Or is there more of a value in keeping them in their current condition?
I was wondering this exact question while filming the interview, but I forgot to ask!!!
I could be wrong, but I'd reason they wouldn't do it now days because it'll take away part of the blade surface even if it's only a few microns and restore it's original appearance. It is possible however that it'll change how these blades are kept clean with their nice polished surfaces. Perhaps the wootz effect can come back with time?
I assume they're trying to prevent further change, including oxidation by the air.
Gotta love that the advert on the side is for a welding service lol
is there any way to determine whether or not supposed 'period' pieces are Damascus under the polish? other than using a neutron source, obviously.
Fascinating. Dying to know more.
Matthew Doye If you have access to scientific literature you could check out: www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0026265X15003057
Viktor Bengtsson Thank you, unfortunately I don't have that access though some of the related reports elsewhere provide more details.
Matthew Doye Good that you found some of them! I was lazy and just copied the link to the one I quoted in a different comment.
My cat passed away today earlier today, first thing i felt like doing since was checking here for a new video
As far as I know Damascus steel was possible because of a specific source or iron ore that had higher Vanadium content among other elements. Vanadium would form the pattern first and carbon would diffuse to these sites and be trapped causing alternating layers of cementite and ferrite. At some point that source of iron ore was simply exhausted or too expensive to operate and then that particular steel was not possible to be made with iron from other sources.
Maybe the swords MUTATED from the neutron bombardment into super swords! =O
PerfectDeath4 you mean into real Katanas with the Soul of a Samurai?
Maybe some of their iron became heavier stable isotopes through neutron capture...
Black hole super sword.
Is it posible to restore the blads that was wrongfully polished in the 19th centery
Very cool!
I remember visiting the Wallace Collection in 2002. As an armchair enthusiast of Rajput (Indian) weaponry, I felt I was in heaven.
I have a request.... can u find anything on ottoman / Turkish fighting techniques (as in HEMA) in the western records? There is not much available on our side since Janissaries were outlawed at one point and hunted down all over the empire (obviously no one left to pass on training techniques). But we know there were things like "matrak" (a stick with a soft ball at the end and a shield was used, and u would get points for each hit to the head), to this day there is oil-wrestling, which I think was a reaction to heavily armored european troops, you win by getting both of the opponents shoulders on the ground. And as last one I know, there is "cirit", where horseman train for javelin skirmishing.
There is also this one guy who had gotten some documents that he found translated (to historians) from ottoman. He is "Efkan CALIS" on youtube I believe, can u check it out and tell us what you think ?
Very recently I have seen people looking into Bosnian sources describing Ottoman fighting methods. You might want to take again a look into it.
I was wondering something, if I have an inexpensive and fairly common antique sword that is in good condition do you think it's okay to cut with it? Like cutting soft mats or other objects for fun or would you advise against that? :3
Yes, if you can do so without damaging the sword, then I don't see any problem with it. I have a few antiques that I cut with.
scholagladiatoria Thanks mate. This video was great, I love these guys who are so passionate about what they do. We are blessed with so many great museums, I'm from London and have only just started visiting them recently after not going to one since I was a kid on school trips, now that I'm an adult they're so much more fascinating. So much cool stuff! I have to visit this place! :D
If you like weapons and armour, the Wallace Collection is No. 1 in London. It's not huge, but what it has is wonderful and it has a lot crammed into 4 rooms.
I couldn't agree more. The museum is compact but packed with high quality weapons and amour presented in a great way.
Not so great for a date though. Being torn between looking at the swords and looking at the girl, it's a terrible state of affairs ;)
Fascinating!
We have a neutron source in Chalk River 240km from where I am. They have applications for the public to have items tested. Convincing them could be challenge, but for historical reasons?? Definitely within range.
Time to etch those polished blades.
Any mention of trace Vanadium ?
I'm not exactly clear as to what the effect of the slag is on the sword. By toughness does he mean how hard to material is or how springy it is or how resistant to breaking it is?
Slag is oxides and other particles with bad cohesion with the rest of the material. They create stress concentration points and crack initiation points, so you have a high chance of fracture initiation on one of the slag particles. In pure metal there are much less of these disaster nuclei so the chances of fracture initiation is much lower for the same loading conditions.
Well wireless.mike is correct, if not slightly convoluted ;), but I feel he only answers half the question. So I'd like to add a few things.
Hardness and toughness are not the same thing. Hardness is, well, how hard the metal is (duh). It indicates which substance can damage other substances. Iron can scratch lead, but not visa versa, so iron is harder than lead. See it as the scratchability factor of a substance :)
Toughness means how resistant a substance is against breaking. Take a glass pipe and a rubber one. If you hammer them both, you find that the glass one will break easily, but no matter how hard you whack at the rubber one, it will always come back into shape. Rubber is tougher than glass. To take the example further: glass is harder than rubber, because you can cut the rubber with your glass shards. The other way round would be kinda hard to do.
Back to metals: the amount of slag in a metal contributes to the (lack of) toughness of it. A metal with much slag, is not tough because it'll break easy when it hits things. That's because slag introduces failure points into the metal. A metal with low amounts of slag would be far more resistant to breaking.
Hardness and toughness also interact with each other. As a rule of thumb one can say for metals that: harder is more brittle, and softer is tougher. A high carbon steel bar breaks when it's hit with enough force, an iron bar would bend instead.
Swords are usually in the sweet spot between hardness and toughness. Hard enough to to hold an edge and not get damaged (chipped, dented) easily from contact with weapons/armour. Tough enough to not shatter on impacts, but not up to the point they easily bend.
I hope this clears it out. For the better educated people than me: yes I know I've simplified some things and cut some corners. I was not intending to write a book to cover each exception and edge case. Thank you for your understanding.
Stefan Van Reeth thank u... it really helpful
More of that guy! :)
hello
the only problem in buying into this hypothesis is that...I have witnessed wootz blades being remounted in workshops in Qatar, that would easily break if dropped or flexed.
We really do not know whether the issue with the steel or the heat treatment. This topic has been discussed hundreds of times on vikingsword.com and swordforum.com
It was interesting :P nice video!
awesome
iron edge for ease of sharpening in the field? I'd like to examine some of my blades!
These katars are so high status, I'm not sure they were worried about sharpening them - they'd just get a servant to do it, or pull out another one :-)
I LOVE MY SWORDS
How radioactive were the swords after neutron exposure?
"After irradiation, the activation of the sample was measured using the Geiger counter provided on the beamline, and the samples were showing very low activation (less than 0.5 μSv) at 5 min."
From F. Grazzi, E. Barzagli, A. Scherillo, A. De Francesco, A. Williams, D. Edge, M. Zoppi, "Determination of the manufacturing methods of Indian swords through neutron diffraction", Microchemical Journal, Vol. 125, March 2016, pages 273-278, dx.doi.org.ezp.sub.su.se/10.1016/j.microc.2015.11.035
it's harmless. basically as long as you don't irradiate yourself directly anyway. But that's why it's a multiple person job to fire the shot.
Were Chinese blades melted to get rid of slag? or were they more like the Japanese ones?
Chinese steel was not melted, no.
epic0wnag The Japanese actually brought over Chinese swordsmiths to help them make swords so........
mybe he could do a thing on ancient swords like Sword of Goujian or bronze swords
Han dynasty steel was melted.
Dennis Bauer what? Is that sword even in their possession? And what do you mean by thing you mean an exhibit?
Is it just me or does anyone else think that the good Dr. sounds sort of like Sir Alec Guiness at times?
Not sure but he does sound like a man from a more civilized age.
I think i know the mistery behind the sword with steel center and iron edge, A sword with steel in the center and iron in the edges could have been cheap way of making a thrusting orientated sword, a strong spine would not bend as much and not dissipate the energy and therefore delivering much more energy to the target while thrusting, and since cuting was not the intent of the weapon the edges could have been made with cheap iron to save money, wich is very important when you want to arm thousands of soldiers in your army.
But most of those swords were designed for cutting not thrusting.
I like your reasoning, but most of the oriental swords (all?) were curved blades, they definitively were cutting oriented. Besides, I doubt making swords by forge welding different metals is any cheaper than using a single bar of steel.
Could it have been some sort of practice weapon? With an unsharpened iron edge to soften blows? Which then wrongly got sharpened in the 19th century because the usage of the sword was misunderstood or some bozo just didn't like the dull edge?
Or maybe it was a thing sold to foreigners. Because they just didn't like those European scum invaders and any attempt at scamming them would be considered a heroic deed by the locals. Who knows :)
To you guys replying, a katar is a stabbing weapon kind of like a punching dagger
TheJimm3h
But that's one weapon, that wasn't nearly as popular as the tulwar.
Well, to be fair, the weapon with the iron edge that is discussed in the video was indeed a katar. I should have re-checked that before commenting. I stand corrected. Here's a picture of a katar btw: goo.gl/images/A1jVme
So Bernardo brought up a valid point. But would the usage of cheaper materials really save costs considering the extra time needed during the forging? Was labour that cheap back then? I don't know but it seems odd to me. Still, after seeing what a katar was, Bernardo really might be right.
Who's the guy in the scholagladiatora shirt?
Does this mean that pattern welding and Damascus steel are basically the same in terms of the quality of weapon they can produce? Would the older (and evidently much slower) process of producing Damascus steel give you a noticeably better sword (or whatever weapon you shape it into)?
We should avoid the term Damascus really, because different people misuse the word for things that are not Damascus. Wootz is vastly superior to pattern welding, because with wootz the steel is melted to remove slag and create a very 'pure' steel with high carbon. Pattern welding is just taking a bunch of impure steel rods, with lots of slag included, and forging them into a twisted bar.
that is very very wrong, pattern welding as well as wootz produce as good result as the steel it's made of. Claiming that all pattern welded blades use impure steel rods with slag inclusions is not an honest observation
I'm honestly a bit disapointed that you'd paint the picture so black and white, I usually find that you often put things in a more realistic gray scale
***** who ever said it was about a pattern? we were talking about pattern welding maybe you misunderstood my point
yes, wootz had carbide formations rippled around vanadium alloying elements, it's really nothing special as people today like to believe, it's all hype.
It was the crucible method and purity that was the effective part of wootz, instead of bloomery iron that created large variations and inclusions, however every bloom iron piece was not faulty after working and forge welding, it depended on each foundry, each ore, each forge, and each smith
it's plain wrong to say that a pattern welded blade is per definition worse than a wootz damascus blade
Clausius Clapeyron there is something about the forging process used by ancient Indian black smiths . For example look at the Iron pillar that was erected 1600 years ago and still standing without rusting .I still wonder how this was possible
An iron edge could be for hammer sharpening, which is the traditional way to sharpen scythe blades.
I just wish he would have showed you some of the swords he was talking about.
How would meteoric iron have compared to historical crucible steels?
Last I looked into it, meteors tend to have a lot of nickel. It is corrosion resistant but relatively soft as it doesn't harden up anywhere near as well.
He says they can tell whether a sword has been hardened.
Yet, in the 'Secrets of the Viking Sword' in which he appears, they say they don't know whether they were hardened or not.
Is there a paper now somewhere that deals with whether the Wulberhts were hardened or not? Does he know now?
I guess on why the katar would have a steel body could be because its use as a punch dagger. A strong steel core would allow for better penetration without bending or breaking, where as having iron edged would not be a problem because the katar is a thrust centric weapon. Perhaps having a sharp cutting edge was not as important thus u do not need a steel edge.
When you expose a material to a neutron source you will make that material radioactive.
London museum?
Strange??? Some latene Celtic swords are the same hard inner steel and soft iron edge?? I'm not getting it??
Christ, I was looking away from my screen when he started talking and thought it was James May.
Science is amazing.
increase the speed of this video to at least 1.25 you will be very happy
Matt has found his real dad :>
Katars have a high carbon body and a low carbon edge because they were not typically used for cutting. Katars were mainly used for trusting, and the high carbon body and tip was favourable for penetrating armour, while the low carbon edge helped prevent shattering.
While this could be an explanation for that one example, katars normally seem to have the best steel on the edges and point. This example seems to be unusual.
+scholagladiatoria I definitely understand the reasoning behind having a harder steel for the point and core, I'm surprised that they would also use a harder steel on the edge. From what I understand they only really used the edge to block and parry. Maybe happenstance made it worthwhile to have a sharp edge just in case you had an opportunity to cut an opponent.
Well, the edges of every katar I've ever had were very sharp, so they presumably thought the edges were important, even if just to aid penetration of the point and increase the size of the stab wound.
a katana looks strange if it was a thrust centric blade. a streight double edge sword would be better. got a source that shows that a katana is mainly for thrusting.
+Exploatores we are discussing Katars not Katanas. Although on the topic of Katanas they are quite effective for thrusting as well, though cutting is much more prevalent.
This feels like a Brady Harran video.
Archaeometallurgist is a fucking awesome job title.
totally fascinating, but i'm actually MORE interested in learning how the neutron's hitting the steel allows them to non-destructively discover its content and structure.
I'd suggest you tell us when you get your nuclear physicist PHD :p
Matt looks completely starstruck during the whole conversation.
Does Dr. Williams do a lot of talks at schools?
where there any Georgian swords?
So the Katana was an inferior blade! Such sacrilege. I can hear a collective moan of all the mall ninjas of the world.
Interesting to hear from someone who's an expert in both swords that the wootz swords are more durable than the various types of Katana.
He's like an older version of you, Matt, but older and with more hair.
He may be your daddy...
Isis identifies our antique swords, isn't that great.
Lemonsquabble xD
Somebody somewhere accidentally found out how to make it and just ran with it.
triple like !! =D
The final blow to the myth about the ultimate superiority of the Katana! .
If you got one of these hyped toys and don't want your friends to laugh about you, you can send them to me and I will discretely take care of them,
If you still want to keep them for sentimental reasons, you should at least think about making substantial improvements to their usability in an actual swordfight by adding some sort of handguard.
Of course you would still get killed if your opponent has a european longsword but it gives you a certain dignity in death when your hands are still attached to your body.
many people have interest in middle eastern arms but no one knows how to use it.. so please matt can you search how the middle eastern warrior earn their name in past.
News report: KatanaFanBoy1337 falls out of love with katana, marries persian..
Damascus steel is pretty and all, and if there's no other accessible way to make quality steel then you do what you need to do. But if those *Western* techniques can churn out steel of equal or better quality with 1/10th the labour and a fraction of the cost, then for sure I'll buy the western sword, then one or two backup swords, and some top notch armour or shields, with the same money. There's nothing *Western* about recognising a good deal.
and of course, I believe that there's value in learning about and preserving these old fabrication methods as a matter of history and our cultural heritage. I just mean that too often, romantic notions of old, foreign practices cloud the reality that we really have made real progress since the 'good old days'.
no it's not still made, and since the 19th century pattern welded steels have been called damascus steel, used for gun barrels and lots of stuff (now mostly for fancy blades), that's probably what you meant
it is a lost art in the way that we don't know exactly what they did, or what they used or where the take was, we know that vanadium alloy bands creates ripples of carbides in the steel that show up like the historical wootz looks like and partly consists of.
as such, crucible steel with some vanadium alloying elements is still created as an attempt to create something similar to wootz/ historical damascus steel
this part is not directly to you but to others who says that it's anything more than a lost 'art': what it isn't is a super steel, and it isn't better in any single way than modern homogeneous steel
Malcolm Powless-Lynes they might make crucible steel, that does not make it "wootz" crucible steel
the particular take, particular ore, particular recipe is unknown or unclear, the general method is not
yeah that second part was just venting some frustration over people throwing a fit over "damascus steel", and as I said not directed at you.
I do believe we don't disagree by that much in this topic (but I can't accept that you know someone who makes specifically wootz crucible steel, unless they have a time machine and lives in east asia
@Sargon I was speaking to Alan William's use of the word *Western* almost as a slur, as if wanting the same or better product for a fraction of the price is some imperialist value that was forcefully imposed on people.
It's interesting that you used the word 'modern' where I used the word 'western'. That's your substitution, not mine. My point is that very substitution is seen by some as controversial and ethnocentric, or even racist.
crucible steel was never cast, it melted and cooled inside the crucible! This is one of the mistakes in this film, Dr. Alan Williams!
Isn't that the same thing.... ?!?!? melting and cooling in the crucible is casting...
@@TheScaleModeller casting by definition means to form in intended shape with molten metal as opposed to forging a from a billet.