Excellent test , Bro...I've been a Defender CCW carrier for the last 2 years... they have just consistently tested the BEST thru clothing , drywall and other barriers from every test I've seen AND conducted personally. The damage they do is NOT dependent on the hollow points ogive expanding - therfore - they are simply superior to hollowpoints !! I used to carry the HST and Goldot exclusively , but of all the testing I've seen , the DEFENDER is simply THE BEST. I even like that they nickel plate the brass to help prevent corrosion. As ALWAYS - shoot at least 1 or 2 boxes thru your carry gun to make sure it cycles ok in your gun before you carry it !! That being said , in 7 different CCW pistols I or my wife have carried , it has cycled flawlessly in all 7 ( HK , Glock , Sig and Ruger ) but you MUST test in your own gun to ENSURE it functions well before staking your life on ANY carry ammo. Thanks for a very thorough test...nicely done and edited well !!
Note clear gel always over penetrates. There is a good article over on police 1 detailing that. You can subtract about 1-2” from your clear ballistic gel tests to compare it to real FBI gel.
@@TheKalkara131 that’s interesting. I wonder if it has something to do with the low disruption of the bb vs the higher power 9mm round. Maybe the clear gel handles stretch different compared to its standard resistance to the slow FPS bb. You would be in a better position to comment on than I. Your the guy doing the actual testing.
Very good tests. I carried the Gold Dot 124+p while on the job( NYPD) . And I switched over to XD 90 gr +p about three years ago. Keep up the good work.
Xtreme Defender's don't look as good in clear gel as they do in standard ballistic gelatin. Clear gel is much more elastic and shows less damage from dynamic stretch.
Measuring damage in any kind of gel is a useless task. Gel is not an analog for human tissue. Gel is simply a consistent measuring tool for penetration depth, expansion and retained weight of the projectile.
I love the xtreme defender line of ammo. Wish there was some real world data on it, but based on what I’ve seen in water jugs, pork, and ballistic gel they have impressive results.
@@mghegotagun Videos from years ago, MAC I think. Also a RUclipsr in Ohio killed a deer with .45-70, think it was XP or XH. Another video, I don’t remember the guy, shot a doe with XD with a G40 from a tree stand.
XD can really shine when up against certain "Bad guy body armor" (Level 2A, 2, or 3A). I made a video that I test XD 65 grain (9mm and .357sig) versus 2 types of 3A Armor panel..... with interesting results. Thank you for your video! Well done!
I'm not sure if I stated it, but I don't either did bad. They're both solid and I'm sure would serve you well. In my personal opinion, the Xtreme Defender just did a little better.
The idea of developing the protocol requiring between 12-18 inches was to get a round that both sufficiently penetrates enough to hit vitals as well not over penetrating. A round that "consistently" hovers around/passes the overpenetration mark wouldn't be the winner in my book unless you don't have to worry about background. You also can't just remove a result that doesn't fit the narrative, it's a fact and you can't ignore it; if the result was flawed then do a second run. Temporary cavitation, which is more visible in regular ballistics gel, is also of critical importance since it effects what actually brings bad guy to a stop, major damage to vital organs. With all of that having been said, gel testing is only one aspect of determining the "better" round. The 124 gr +P Gold Dot has been and continues to be used by a multitude of major city PDs simply because the work in the real world where it actually matters. Chicago and NY shoot a lot of bad guys every year and there is mountains of real world data just from those two departments alone. Massad Ayoob has done extensive research, but I'd rather go with street proven until someone can prove that something else provides superior results.
I'd rather pick a round that's on the extreme edge but very consistent. As I've said in other videos, I think overpenetration is worried about way too much. Even police miss more shots than they hit. I'm not worried much about my bullet hitting a target and going all the way through him then injuring someone else, when statistics say I'll probably straight up miss him with some anyway. Temporary cavitation with handgun rounds isn't a thing. They don't have enough velocity to cause any remote damage to tissues. Penetration is the most important wounding factor for handgun rounds. I recognize that. I personally prefer the XD but I've said in tons of videos, the gold dot is as well known as it is for a reason. It just works. Pretty sure I said that, the GD didn't fail, I just think the XD did better.
@@TheKalkara131 The FBI protocol is not about being consistent at one extreme or the other, it is about consistently falling within the 12-18 inch level that was determined to be ideal and then being able to replicate that over multiple repetitions. Furthermore, the proper use of the FBI protocol is not for one test with a sample size of one per load for each barrier to be the be all end all of determining bullet effectiveness; it is a starting point. What actually matters is what happens in the real world and a medical examiners report will tell you far more than one test in clear gel, hundreds of them will yield far more useful data. "Overpenetration is worried about way too much." - I don't think there would be such a thing as worrying "too much" about overpenetration if you child/wife/parent/whoever may matter to you were behind the target. Somehow I think overpenetration would be a huge deal in that scenario. "I'm not worried much about my bullet hitting a target and going all the way through him then injuring someone else, when statistics say I'll probably straight up miss him with some anyway." - Statistically speaking you're more likely to win the lottery than to be hit by lighting, I've never won the lotter, but I'm not about to go fly a kite in a lightning storm. A statistical mean is only an average, not a guarantee of a specific outcome. "Even police miss more shots than they hit." - I call that a problem, not an acceptable standard which excuses endangering others. We are responsible for every round sent down range and there is an attorney attached to every one of those rounds, whether a states attorney, trial lawyer, or both. "Temporary cavitation with handgun rounds isn't a thing. They don't have enough velocity to cause any remote damage to tissues. Penetration is the most important wounding factor for handgun rounds." - Temporary (stretch) cavitation is a thing, even stab wounds cause that, that's why the tearing often penetrates deeper than the length of the knife. If that were true then the damage caused by a 9mm would be limited to .35" + any expansion. We can easily observe that the damage is in fact larger than permanent cavity caused by the projectiles that passed through them. While far less significant than those caused by long guns, not non-existent nor unimportant. If penetration is all that matters, then ball ammo would be the best choice or perhaps a sword or an arrow. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I think it's important that the facts are correct and presented within the proper context. The question you should probably be asking is why no major LE agency, SWAT team, nor federal agency has adopted these loads in their duty weapons. These rounds certainly have a place and a useful purpose, but why reinvent the wheel when the one we have isn't broken and we can't sufficiently prove that we a better design thus far.
@@prairiepatriot2162 I never claimed my test was the end all be all. If anything, I try to be pretty clear in my videos that i'm basically a civilian and not an expert. If someone I cared about was directly behind the threat, I probably wouldn't shoot. One of the firearm safety rules is about that. However, if someone presents a valid threat to my life, and the room beyond where he is is where someone I care about is at, i'm not going to just not shoot because i'm worried about overpenetration. Find me a case of a lawful, civilian self defense shooting where an innocent bystander was hit because of overpenetration. Has it happened? Probably, but it's extremely rare. In Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness, the authors clearly state that no LEO (civilian in this case) has lost their life because a bullet overpenetrated his target, virtually none have been sued because they hit a bystander, and large numbers HAVE died because a bullet didn't penetrate enough. Yes, that's exactly what an average is. In the vast, overwhelming majority of cases, even trained (I know, I know, we all say police aren't trained enough) LEOs will miss the majority of the shots they take. And even then, even considering that police are probably more likely to engage a suspect in a public area, almost none are ever sued or lose their jobs because of overpenetration. Because we try to be so much better trained than LEOs, i'm sure we'll barely miss our target. At which point, the bullet will give up the majority of it's energy fully penetrating the target anyway (Also from Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness). Could it happen that you have to engage a target, your bullet goes all the way through, through a wall, and someone you love just happens to be EXACTLY there? Yes, possible. Is it also possible that someone may try to shoot you while you're in your car? Yeah, but does that mean you go out of your way to get an armored car? No, because the likelihood is extremely small. If that extremely small chance bugs you, then by all means carry a load that doesn't penetrate as much if it makes you feel better. Temporary cavity is the stretching of tissue around a permanent wound cavity due to the transfer of kinetic energy by the bullet. Fact is, the majority of handgun rounds don't have enough velocity or energy to stretch most human tissues enough to overcome the natural elasticity of said tissue and tear it. In an article talking to a trauma surgeon, the interviewer asked if there's a significant temporary wound cavity from handguns. The surgeon stated that it's there, but its minimal, and ended with "You don't really get much damage from the hydrostatic "pressure" of tissues ripping from a handgun." In Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness, they say "The tissue disruption caused by a handgun bullet is limited to two mechanisms. The first, or crush mechanism is the hole the bullet makes passing through the tissue. The second, or stretch mechanism is the temporary cavity formed by the tissues being driven outward in a radial direction away from the path of the bullet. Of the two, the crush mechanism, the result of penetration and permanent cavity, is the only handgun wounding mechanism which damages tissue." I agree completely, everyone has their own opinion. And I'll state mine, as they are, in my own videos and back it up with the evidence I have, be it gel tests or information from other sources. If you disagree, I encourage you to do your own testing and put it out there in your own videos. I do find it strange that nobody has adopted the Xtreme Defender, but I believe it comes down to cost and the XD bullets are new. The Underwood Xtreme Defender, on the civilian market at least, as of typing this, starts out selling for $1.20 a round. Speer Gold Dot are $0.80 per round. Lehigh, the company that makes the XD bullets, has only been in business for about 20 years. I can't find any info on when they introduced the XD bullet, but it's been less than that. They're still the new guy on the block. i'm sure we both agree that LE agencies, just like militaries, don't always do the smartest thing, just what's cheapest and gets the job done. *cough*Sig P320*cough*. Just because a wheel isn't broken, doesn't mean that you can't explore other, newer options and if they make sense enough to you, personally, upgrade your wheels.
I believe you can go wrong with the gold dot you never mentioned the wound channel Once you started going through barriers the Underwood made the same size channel and ive heard far too many stories about denim keeping a hollow point from opening. I carry a Shield with 3.1" barrel I feel more protected since i have discovered the Underwood round. Thank you for the video.
I'd have to re-watch the video, but I'm pretty sure the GD still opened up in most of the tests, even the clothing test. But I get what you mean, it's why I prefer the XD
What's awesome with the underwood 90 grain +p it's going to be a lot lighter when your carrying instead of the 124. Something to think about. Great testing.
I WOULD CARRY EITHER. REAL WORLD SCENERIO YOU WOULD SHOOT DOWN INTO THE GLASS INSTEAD OF FROM A LOWER POSITION. YOUR VIDEO WAS WELL THOUGHT OUT. I WISH I HAD PROPERTY TO TEST WITH AS YOURS. KEEP DOING WHAT YOUR DOING BROTHER.
Two great rounds! Xtreme defender is my favorite for most situations. If you’re shooting in apartments or around people. Winchester silver tips get 11 inches penetration consistently. Gold dot, HST, XTP, xtreme defender are all good penetrating rounds. Just something to think about. I’m alone most of the time but when I have guests it’s silver tips.
The HST could be fun, but I don't imagine the standard pressure Xtreme Defender would perform that much differently. Just a bit slower, so maybe it'd penetrate an inch or two less.
Your chronograph won’t work if it is in shadow. It needs clear background above the sensors to see the shadow of the bullet passing. On a bright day, use the diffusers. I get best results on overcast days without diffusers.
If you want to see how that performs, that's the round Hornady tested on their website that has the FBI test protocol. Google Hornady fbi test, it should be the first result
I'm a little surprised the Gold Dot showed the temporary stretch cavity as big as it was for all tests. I would have assumed that plugging the cavity would have made it perform more of an icepick type wound channel. Kudos for it's performance. The Xtreme Defender looked like it had an almost identical TSWC regardless of whether it was bare gel, drywall, plywood, steel, glass, or clothing. But that's one of it's advertised features. I have been carrying Federal 124 grain HSTs (both standard pressure and +P) for many years. I've recently begun carrying the Xtreme Defenders in the +P+ version in my Glock 26.3 but remain carrying the HSTs in my G19.5 and CZ P-01.
It might be interesting for you to check out load development and terminal ballistics in the same medium with the same parameters... using the 'extreme penetrator' projectiles, given that they have considerably more robust flutes and have resisted deformation to a much greater degree than the 'defender' in my testing! Also, was there any overlap of penetration channels in the clear ballistics gel... that might have skewed the results given the number of rounds fired into that medium? Overall, you did a very good job with this!
There needs to be more publicized tests on flesh instead of gel for the lehigh bullets. Until then, the underwood ammo lehigh load main perk is energy, penetration, and barrier blindness. Actual wound cavity in flesh is questionable, but that was always something that wasnt much of a priorty to me in handgun calibers as it only matters several seconds/minutes after i want to hit the offenders off button the moment the trigger is pulled. You either hit something important enough to stop the fight, or you dont.
Good testing, thanks. Surprisingly both bullets had almost identical temporary cavities and penetration. The extra mass of the Gold Dot probably helped. I was issued Gold Dots for the street years ago and that's what I'd stick with. Overpenetration was always the biggest worry and we didn't 'machine gun' our pistols like I'm seeing these days except when you were stuck face to face. Shots were fast, just not wild.
Excellent video. I might be wrong, however, but with the glass test, the XD looked like it penetrated another inch or so and then was sucked back, and perhaps that adjusted depth of penetration is more accurate. In any event, the XD was outstanding, and while your test weapon was the Glock 45, my understanding is that as you drop the barrel length (like to that of the Sig P365), the Gold Dot's expansion and performance degrades, but the XP's performance (since there's nothing to expand) only deviates a small amount. That's why I now carry the XP in my P365 (as well as my Glock 45, and other 9mm, .380, 40 S&W and .45 ACP pistols).
The XD that you though went through the steel at 23:37 and was slightly flattened, it looks like what you called deformed was actually a piece of the steel bonded to the tip of the XD bullet like it was wearing a steel hat as it is silver on top and not copper colored, I bet you could pry that off and the bullet underneath would be almost pristine
Good morning I'm not an expert by any means but from what I've read I don't understand why people shoot the 90 grain out of 4 inch barrels when they're meant from what I've read for compact or subcompact weapons versus the 124 + p to be shot out of a standard 4-inch Barrel therefore making the accuracy test lopsided as far as velocity and impact
I know some people like to use light for caliber loads in sub compacts, because you can get a bit better velocity out of them, but I don't know if they were purpose made for shorter barrels. Either way, I think the test speaks for itself. They both performed adequately, and have extremely similar ft lbs. I've never had any issues with accuracy from the lighter stuff, personally.
I believe that 90 grains is the heaviest xtreme defense bullet that is made for 9mm. As far as I know, they aren’t intended for any specific barrel length. They are made by Lehigh Defense.
Great vid, lol ya most people don't realize how crazy auto/safety glass is. That stuff is no joke.. If you think about it, it is made to take rocks being tossed by other cars at 40-90+ MPH and not explode, so I was expecting it to be a crazy obstacle.
I ride with the xtreme defenders because we cant carry hollowpoints here. They seem to perform phenomenal in testing through barriers, but for the house, its the Barnes Tacxpd they act like Talons and work best outside of barriers. They're both perfect designs for inside or outside defense. Ive seen a lot of failures in testing the gold dot, but have some gen2 which is supposed to be better.
To me it looked like the gold dot had better wound cavities. Also I don't know if I like the penetration on the extreme defenders. I'll stick with Gold dots or HSTs
Both of them are solid choices I'd say. I like the XDs because, in the unlikely event I have to shoot through a barrier, they're less likely to deform and will perform as they should. As far as penetration, clear ballistics gel doesn't show that as closely to human tissue as organic gel. Besides, I think overpenetration is a overblown issue regardless.
The real difference between the Xtreme Defender and most hollow points is not just barriers, but bones. Most hollow points will clog and fail to expand when they hit bone.
Bone is a very tough barrier for lead hollow points, for consistent expansion, I've shot both Speer Gold Dot Federal HST and extreme Defenders through coconuts wallboard plywood into water jugs and the HST and the Speer Gold Dot do not penetrate as deep as the extreme Defenders
Even the Xtreme penetration rounds work phenomenal on large game and even for defense against them in a pinch when hunting. I definitely feel well protected out in the wild with them
IMO you did a great job with this test overall. I'm sold on the Lehigh defense Extreme Defenders and Extreme Penetrators for my 9mm defense ammo. The performance is the best and most reliable through any barrier or clothing.
I'd be careful about the Xtreme penetrators. I tested one once, and it zipped straight through two entire blocks like it was nothing. Sliiiiightly more than 12-18" 😂
A 9mm round i dont ever see anyone talk about much less test is the 100gr solid copper sellier&bellot xrg ....i found them to be really nasty lil s.o.b's expands nice and best yet reasonably priced if not cheap compared to just about everything else
We have to get you MORE VIEWS AND SUBSCRIBERS! I watched because i use the 8mm 124gr +P Gold Dots from Double Tap.Was always curious where both the GDs and UWPs performed. Have confidencee in my GDs now, THANK YOU for the work/time in making this!
According to Sydney Vail, MD, the temporary stretch for most any handgun rounds is too small to really matter. So a larger wound channel is good and all, but practically I'm doubting it'll make much difference. According to the ballistics experts at the FBI, penetration is the most important factor for handgun rounds.
Both are winners. Nothing to complain about with either nor is there anything with which to be disappointed. I would still stay with the old tried & true at this point because I am older and don't change easily. However, the results I have been seeing from this new technology are encouraging and maybe even impressive. Well done. Thank you for doing the dirty work for all of us.
Go check out the website where I found the information about the FBI Barrier Test. They have videos demonstrating the stages, and they actually use the Critical Duty round!
Clear gel isn't the same as organic gel that the FBI uses, correct. However, for one it's all I got, so it's what I'm using. Two, the difference between them isn't all that much, especially with pistol rounds.
Great job on the testing. Props to the Gold Dot, a great round and work of art when fully expanded. Expectedly the 90gr XD lost more momentum vs 124gr GD on the hardest barrier being lighter and through a decrease in sectional density due to nose deformation; basically becoming a wad cutter. This is a good reason to avoid the lighter 68gr XD and opt for the 90gr +P+ to maximize XD's velocity based action. I wonder if Lehigh can further increase the hardness of the copper formula for glass barriers and still allow for rifling deformation.
For sectional density to increase, a bullet’s diameter would need to decrease when hitting a barrier. If a bullet diameter increases, as it does with hollow point expansion or flattening deformation, sectional density decreases.
No idea, it really depends on how the GD bullet performs at higher velocities. The typical reaction is it hits the gel harder, with more energy, ergo it expands quicker and larger. More drag on the bullet for longer results in less penetration. But ballistics is weird, because sometimes that extra energy is enough to push that larger expanded round deeper, sometimes not. Sometimes it's too much energy for the bullet design and it expands TOO much, causing the petals to peel too far back and making it actually smaller. I may pick up a box and compare it to the Speer loading.
According to their respective websites, Underwood doesn't load 124gr GD +P much hotter than Speer (1225 v 1220) while Underwood's GD +P+ is 1300. The Underwood 90gr XD is 1400, +P is 1475, +P+ is 1550. Would another 80fps make that much difference?
I've been telling women for years that 3" is enough! For real though, there's other factors to consider. If the threat is at some kind of angle, not perfectly straight to you. Different types of clothing, possibly an arm in the track of your bullet if he's holding a gun or knife himself. And, the most important issue with that argument is always that penetration in ballistics gel is not the same as penetration in a human body. Ballistics gel is all the same material, it's homogeneous. The human body is made up of many different materials, skin, muscle, fat, bone, tendon, different organs. The smart scientists and doctors from the FBI Ballistics Lab came up with the 12-18" standard, I didn't just randomly pick the numbers.
Nice video not exactly an expert demonstration but better than some I've seen nice job I carry spear Gold Dot 124GR +p but after watching many videos I'm going with Extreme Defender 68GR +p Extreme Defender for 2 reasons the villosity is greater and the weight 1oz lighter the main reason is the villosity.
I appreciate it. I don't try to claim to be an expert. I'm a gun nut with a phone, that's about it. I may spend more time researching and reading up on stuff like this, but it's not like it's my job
Excellent test, but the main take away that you missed, but still caught on video is the cavitation (both temporary and permanent). Those wound channels are what causes the trauma that ends the fight. I have carried gold dots and critical duty ammo for years with confidence and still view them highly. But what I have seen with the Underwood loadings of the Lehigh Xtreme Defense projectiles is simply amazing. The near uniform penetration despite barriers (auto safety glass screws up the ballistics of everything, AP included) is what made me switch to Underwood Xtreme Defender loads. Not knocking Gold Dot at all, I still think it is great ammo.
Hey kalkara! I got some ammo I would want to send your way. It’s from a company called g9. It’s their external hollow point. It seems to behave similar to the Underwood but is more efficient in the testing I’ve done. Please let me know if you’re interested . G9 also has some third party testing on their site as well.
Thanks for the video. Nice to see the comparison. Personally I only carry 124 grain +P HPs, Speer Gold Dot, and when I rotate those out I have some Fed HST to replace them. The light for caliber rounds do have great velocity of course, and the Lehigh bullet design is genius. But if you have a fixed sight carry gun (which most of us do) the point of impact can be a lot different, and nothing you can do about it except using 'Kentucky windage' to compensate. Doesn;t matter if all you care about it 'get off me" close range defense of course, but I like my point of impact to be closer to center of aim. So I stick with normal for caliber bullet weights, and keep my practice ammo as close to the same weight and velocity as I can. I use Win. NATO 124s for practice, and carry the Gold Dot 124 +P
Extremely well done! I saw the Mac video on this in order about $200 worth of the ammo. Both +p and +p+, and I'm liking the consistency in penetration and expansion. Haven't been shot myself with a 38 hollow point and my son was shot with a 45 ACP hollow point, luckily neither of which expanded due to the hollow point filling with material, I'm thankful. But also learning from the lesson that you need to get the best expansion and consistent expansion no matter what. Which is why I purchased the Underwood ammo. With that said I am not going to shoot up all of my HST, and gold dot, and XTP, and hydra shock, on the short term it's all modern ammo and it's also good. Since underwood was running a sale of $22.80 for a box of 20 which is comparable to the other ones I figured what the heck. You have earned a sub and a like. Thank you very much for this informative video.
There is one other factor to consider, as much as we paid for Underwood we had to use them. I was ashamed to think I'd given that much and not carried em. lol
I'm curious how either of these rounds would do out of my 3.1" shield plus. I'm seeing many tests indicating that you're better off going 147g HST & 147g Ranger T-Series if using shorter barrel pistols.
Ranger T clogs horribly with heavy clothing and shows to be very inconsistent in bare gel expansion. 124g+p HST is a little better out of shorter barrels than the 147g from what I've seen, but the 147 does tackle barriers a little better and it's weight carries it's energy to further distances. The 68g+p Xtreme Defenders are awesome, and seem to me to be the best barrier blind self defense round today, better than the 90g+p XD. Sucks they're so expensive usually at around 1.20 and up/round I usually carry 124g+p HST in shorter barrels and buy them up when they get below .85/round. They preform exceptionally well out of shorter barrels. Far better than Gold Dot or Ranger T
The 9mm 90 gr XD doesn't have enough velocity to perform to it's potential. The Underwood 357 Sig 65 gr XD however does have the needed velocity, 2100 fps!
The potential of those rounds will be different, considering they're both different weight and in different calibers. Obviously the 65 gr bullet will be going faster, its like 30% lighter.
They both look very good. However, clear ballistic gel is not what is used by the FBI in testing. They use organic gel such as Knox gelatin. You will generally see better expansion and a much better defined permanant wound path in organic gel
I know they don't use clear ballistics, but organic gel is harder to come by and you have to keep it at a certain temperature. As far as expansion and wound path, neither are truly represented in organic gel either, vs in a human body. Too many variables in a human body that aren't shown in organic gel. I use only clear ballistics gel, so I can compare how the different rounds act against each other from using the same medium.
Both did very well. But I'd stick with the Gold Dot because of the expansion. But you didn't measure that. That extra expansion might just cause a bit more trauma. However, if I were in a juristiction that prohibited hollow points, I'd go with the Underwood for sure.
Very interesting and informative video. Well done!!! I've carried and used the Speer Gold Dot 9 mm, 9 mm+P in both 124 grain and 147 gr G2 versions. Both rounds are Street Proven Self Defense and Law Enforcement shootings. But Leigh Defense XD +P was consistent at penetration depth. I would say that both rounds are adequate for Self Defense usage and for penetration of barriers. Stay Safe and Watch your Six.
People tend to forget the fact is that round nose bullets proved their effectiveness before expanding ammo was even a thing. Don't remember if this is a whole book or just a paper but there's a forensic pathologist with like 9000 gun shot wound autopsies done and he goes over how it looks from his perspective and basically he says penetration > everything else. Penetration is what will stop your target not expansion. He says he can't tell what kind of bullet was used by the wound, they all look the same. It's the kinetic shock that's doing all the damage and the shape of the bullet makes no real difference as long as you meet minimum penetration. Going back to the basics it's going to be the kinetic energy that will be the biggest deciding factor, bullets with similar foot pounds or joules will have similar damage no matter what the bullets are and even no matter what the caliber is. A spicy 9mm is going to do the same damage as a average .45 because energy is similar. Using some common sense a lighter bullet will have less recoil, so my 68 grain xd loaded to 1825 fps will have less recoil than a 124g bullet load with comparable energy. Smaller diameter = better penetration. Only downside is going to be ballistic coefficient, lighter bullet will lose energy faster than a heavier bullet but for this to make any real difference you would have to get way outside of effective hand gun range anyway so the way I see it lighter bullet > heavier bullet for the majority of self defense applications. I feel like expanding ammo gets too much credit simply because it's used by so many people and law enforce there's really no way to compare if it actually made any difference if say a fmj was used instead.
Good video. I’ll stick with my usual 124-147 grain goldots and HST’s. Lighter than a 115 grain your asking for reliability issues. For instance your slide not locking back with the x defender. Can’t carry something unreliable. Always stick with 124 grain or heavier for SD loads in 9mm.
@@mmafanatic-tz5or as long as the powder charge is strong enough to blowback the slide properly, bullet grain doesnt affect that right?, I also am confused why the weight grain of the bullet affects feeding issues? unless they are subsonics which have lower fps..
It's definitely something you should consider, however I don't really know of any bullets that can reliably penetrate armor and not just ice pick straight through the body. I'm a fan of practicing the Mozambique drill for that issue.
Those Gold Dot's held up really good through all the barriers. I wonder what those two rounds would look like going through a pork and bone, to simulate real targets? Great test.
The only issue I have with using that kind of target is you need to shoot a lot more of it to get any usable results. There's more variables with that kind of target. Only meat, direct hit on bone, barely a glancing hit on bone, half hit on bone, etc. Ballistics gel is convenient because it's always the same medium, every shot. So the results can be more directly compared.
The 90 +p is a good, very accurate round. It has less recoil. For smaller pistols like the kahr or diamondback, intended for pocket, ideal weight and performance. I matched the 68 +p xd vs. The 90 +p at the range for accuracy. I used my diamondback db9 micro. Results favored the 90. Much more accurate and less jumpy. I use the 68+p in my larger pistols.
@@allenbolen9705 in 380 its an excellent choice. Only thing is that round can get pushed back in its case with repeated reloads. Try this maybe sometime, Federal punch 99 hydrashok deep. This 1 is perfect down to 2.75 lcp size.
@@RU2AIM I tried the XP in gel once. Zipped straight through 2 gel blocks, 32" with no issues. Hunting it would be good, but too much for self defense. That's a ton of overpenetration
First of all great video and presentation. You deserve more views. I feel you're pushing the xd, they almost fail in the 6 stage and I don't think they did all that damage. I wonder why they don't get any agency contract if they are so amazing. More spread maybe in the gold dots but they work in every stage, they're street proven. Not agree with the conclusions. You did a great work 👍
I love ammo tests, I have gold dot 124 grain +p in my 92x next to me. I have two boxes of these and HSTs 124 grain +p. FYI if you see the flame in the block it's a chemical reaction it's normal.
Thanks man! Great test. Exactly what I’ve been looking for. I’ve been debating the critical duty vs the gold dot. After seeing this I’m leaning towards the gold dot. Great performance. The extreme defender is an interesting design, but the principle behind its wounding mechanism is is unproven as of yet unless there’s something I’ve missed.
There is a video out there of a guy who shot a hog with an Extreme Defender 95 gr. +P. He was impressed with its performance. There are so many variables when it comes to choosing good defensive ammo. I’m thinking of switching from HSTs 124 gr. to the Extreme Defenders, as my barrel length is only 3.1 inches; another variable to be considered. Good luck!
Great Video! I mostly use critical duty 135 +p for my 2nd mags, as I always would want to have that barrier blind deep reaching round if in a gun fight. Otherwise it is HSTs, Gold Dots on my main magazines and always 124gr and always +p (true Nato). But couple of observations 1- with HSTs and Gold dots I experience bullet set back/ receding ( round becomes shortened) or casing dimples (i called them) 2- Hornady critical duty( and Critical defense for that matter) bullet projectiles never recede. 3- Horady’s bullet design is the most reliable for feeding. I don’t know about that Philips screw driver.
Excellent test , Bro...I've been a Defender CCW carrier for the last 2 years... they have just consistently tested the BEST thru clothing , drywall and other barriers from every test I've seen AND conducted personally. The damage they do is NOT dependent on the hollow points ogive expanding - therfore - they are simply superior to hollowpoints !! I used to carry the HST and Goldot exclusively , but of all the testing I've seen , the DEFENDER is simply THE BEST. I even like that they nickel plate the brass to help prevent corrosion. As ALWAYS - shoot at least 1 or 2 boxes thru your carry gun to make sure it cycles ok in your gun before you carry it !! That being said , in 7 different CCW pistols I or my wife have carried , it has cycled flawlessly in all 7 ( HK , Glock , Sig and Ruger ) but you MUST test in your own gun to ENSURE it functions well before staking your life on ANY carry ammo. Thanks for a very thorough test...nicely done and edited well !!
Yes sir, Underwood Extreme Defender series ammunition is indeed a quantum leap forward in terminal ballistics.
Note clear gel always over penetrates. There is a good article over on police 1 detailing that. You can subtract about 1-2” from your clear ballistic gel tests to compare it to real FBI gel.
I've heard. But I tested the penetration using the FBI standards, bb going 590fps and it under penetrated.
@@TheKalkara131 that’s interesting. I wonder if it has something to do with the low disruption of the bb vs the higher power 9mm round. Maybe the clear gel handles stretch different compared to its standard resistance to the slow FPS bb. You would be in a better position to comment on than I. Your the guy doing the actual testing.
@@Nono-rh4lr I did a video on the bb testing, if you wanted to watch that
Very good tests. I carried the Gold Dot 124+p while on the job( NYPD) . And I switched over to XD 90 gr +p about three years ago. Keep up the good work.
Xtreme Defender's don't look as good in clear gel as they do in standard ballistic gelatin. Clear gel is much more elastic and shows less damage from dynamic stretch.
Plus it penetrated less on the Stage 6 test.
Measuring damage in any kind of gel is a useless task. Gel is not an analog for human tissue. Gel is simply a consistent measuring tool for penetration depth, expansion and retained weight of the projectile.
@@timrobinson6573the perm wound cavity doesn't really say much either. Now a rifle bullet going 2800fps different story
Also noticed that on the windshield test that the Extreme Defender exhibited about 2" of bounce back.
I love the xtreme defender line of ammo. Wish there was some real world data on it, but based on what I’ve seen in water jugs, pork, and ballistic gel they have impressive results.
And live wild hogs.
@@garysarratt1
Got a source?
@@mghegotagun Videos from years ago, MAC I think. Also a RUclipsr in Ohio killed a deer with .45-70, think it was XP or XH. Another video, I don’t remember the guy, shot a doe with XD with a G40 from a tree stand.
Both look like great rounds. Can't go wrong with either.
Even better: can't go wrong with both. Alternate in your mags.
But the Lehigh are better
Fort scott has some nice solids copper rounds that preform well also .
Yes they do. I now have added them to my defense rounds. Lehigh is still my primary.
Lol the gold dot performed within 12 to 18 inches and expanded to a wider diameter in all test. That’s your winner. People be overthinking it.
XD can really shine when up against certain "Bad guy body armor" (Level 2A, 2, or 3A). I made a video that I test XD 65 grain (9mm and .357sig) versus 2 types of 3A Armor panel..... with interesting results. Thank you for your video! Well done!
Premium bonded JHPs (Gold Dots, HST PDX1, Critical Duty) go through barriers just fine. Just ask law enforcement. Great video!
I'm not sure if I stated it, but I don't either did bad. They're both solid and I'm sure would serve you well. In my personal opinion, the Xtreme Defender just did a little better.
You listed all the good ones!
HST and Critical Duty are not bonded
The idea of developing the protocol requiring between 12-18 inches was to get a round that both sufficiently penetrates enough to hit vitals as well not over penetrating. A round that "consistently" hovers around/passes the overpenetration mark wouldn't be the winner in my book unless you don't have to worry about background. You also can't just remove a result that doesn't fit the narrative, it's a fact and you can't ignore it; if the result was flawed then do a second run. Temporary cavitation, which is more visible in regular ballistics gel, is also of critical importance since it effects what actually brings bad guy to a stop, major damage to vital organs. With all of that having been said, gel testing is only one aspect of determining the "better" round.
The 124 gr +P Gold Dot has been and continues to be used by a multitude of major city PDs simply because the work in the real world where it actually matters. Chicago and NY shoot a lot of bad guys every year and there is mountains of real world data just from those two departments alone. Massad Ayoob has done extensive research, but I'd rather go with street proven until someone can prove that something else provides superior results.
I'd rather pick a round that's on the extreme edge but very consistent. As I've said in other videos, I think overpenetration is worried about way too much. Even police miss more shots than they hit. I'm not worried much about my bullet hitting a target and going all the way through him then injuring someone else, when statistics say I'll probably straight up miss him with some anyway. Temporary cavitation with handgun rounds isn't a thing. They don't have enough velocity to cause any remote damage to tissues. Penetration is the most important wounding factor for handgun rounds.
I recognize that. I personally prefer the XD but I've said in tons of videos, the gold dot is as well known as it is for a reason. It just works. Pretty sure I said that, the GD didn't fail, I just think the XD did better.
@@TheKalkara131 The FBI protocol is not about being consistent at one extreme or the other, it is about consistently falling within the 12-18 inch level that was determined to be ideal and then being able to replicate that over multiple repetitions. Furthermore, the proper use of the FBI protocol is not for one test with a sample size of one per load for each barrier to be the be all end all of determining bullet effectiveness; it is a starting point. What actually matters is what happens in the real world and a medical examiners report will tell you far more than one test in clear gel, hundreds of them will yield far more useful data.
"Overpenetration is worried about way too much." - I don't think there would be such a thing as worrying "too much" about overpenetration if you child/wife/parent/whoever may matter to you were behind the target. Somehow I think overpenetration would be a huge deal in that scenario.
"I'm not worried much about my bullet hitting a target and going all the way through him then injuring someone else, when statistics say I'll probably straight up miss him with some anyway." - Statistically speaking you're more likely to win the lottery than to be hit by lighting, I've never won the lotter, but I'm not about to go fly a kite in a lightning storm. A statistical mean is only an average, not a guarantee of a specific outcome.
"Even police miss more shots than they hit." - I call that a problem, not an acceptable standard which excuses endangering others. We are responsible for every round sent down range and there is an attorney attached to every one of those rounds, whether a states attorney, trial lawyer, or both.
"Temporary cavitation with handgun rounds isn't a thing. They don't have enough velocity to cause any remote damage to tissues. Penetration is the most important wounding factor for handgun rounds." - Temporary (stretch) cavitation is a thing, even stab wounds cause that, that's why the tearing often penetrates deeper than the length of the knife. If that were true then the damage caused by a 9mm would be limited to .35" + any expansion. We can easily observe that the damage is in fact larger than permanent cavity caused by the projectiles that passed through them. While far less significant than those caused by long guns, not non-existent nor unimportant. If penetration is all that matters, then ball ammo would be the best choice or perhaps a sword or an arrow.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I think it's important that the facts are correct and presented within the proper context. The question you should probably be asking is why no major LE agency, SWAT team, nor federal agency has adopted these loads in their duty weapons. These rounds certainly have a place and a useful purpose, but why reinvent the wheel when the one we have isn't broken and we can't sufficiently prove that we a better design thus far.
@@prairiepatriot2162 I never claimed my test was the end all be all. If anything, I try to be pretty clear in my videos that i'm basically a civilian and not an expert.
If someone I cared about was directly behind the threat, I probably wouldn't shoot. One of the firearm safety rules is about that. However, if someone presents a valid threat to my life, and the room beyond where he is is where someone I care about is at, i'm not going to just not shoot because i'm worried about overpenetration. Find me a case of a lawful, civilian self defense shooting where an innocent bystander was hit because of overpenetration. Has it happened? Probably, but it's extremely rare. In Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness, the authors clearly state that no LEO (civilian in this case) has lost their life because a bullet overpenetrated his target, virtually none have been sued because they hit a bystander, and large numbers HAVE died because a bullet didn't penetrate enough.
Yes, that's exactly what an average is. In the vast, overwhelming majority of cases, even trained (I know, I know, we all say police aren't trained enough) LEOs will miss the majority of the shots they take. And even then, even considering that police are probably more likely to engage a suspect in a public area, almost none are ever sued or lose their jobs because of overpenetration. Because we try to be so much better trained than LEOs, i'm sure we'll barely miss our target. At which point, the bullet will give up the majority of it's energy fully penetrating the target anyway (Also from Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness). Could it happen that you have to engage a target, your bullet goes all the way through, through a wall, and someone you love just happens to be EXACTLY there? Yes, possible. Is it also possible that someone may try to shoot you while you're in your car? Yeah, but does that mean you go out of your way to get an armored car? No, because the likelihood is extremely small. If that extremely small chance bugs you, then by all means carry a load that doesn't penetrate as much if it makes you feel better.
Temporary cavity is the stretching of tissue around a permanent wound cavity due to the transfer of kinetic energy by the bullet. Fact is, the majority of handgun rounds don't have enough velocity or energy to stretch most human tissues enough to overcome the natural elasticity of said tissue and tear it. In an article talking to a trauma surgeon, the interviewer asked if there's a significant temporary wound cavity from handguns. The surgeon stated that it's there, but its minimal, and ended with "You don't really get much damage from the hydrostatic "pressure" of tissues ripping from a handgun." In Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness, they say "The tissue disruption caused by a handgun bullet is limited to two mechanisms. The first, or crush
mechanism is the hole the bullet makes passing through the tissue. The second, or stretch mechanism is the temporary cavity formed by the tissues being driven outward in a radial direction away from the path of the bullet. Of the two, the crush mechanism, the result of penetration and permanent cavity, is the only handgun wounding mechanism which damages tissue."
I agree completely, everyone has their own opinion. And I'll state mine, as they are, in my own videos and back it up with the evidence I have, be it gel tests or information from other sources. If you disagree, I encourage you to do your own testing and put it out there in your own videos. I do find it strange that nobody has adopted the Xtreme Defender, but I believe it comes down to cost and the XD bullets are new. The Underwood Xtreme Defender, on the civilian market at least, as of typing this, starts out selling for $1.20 a round. Speer Gold Dot are $0.80 per round. Lehigh, the company that makes the XD bullets, has only been in business for about 20 years. I can't find any info on when they introduced the XD bullet, but it's been less than that. They're still the new guy on the block. i'm sure we both agree that LE agencies, just like militaries, don't always do the smartest thing, just what's cheapest and gets the job done. *cough*Sig P320*cough*. Just because a wheel isn't broken, doesn't mean that you can't explore other, newer options and if they make sense enough to you, personally, upgrade your wheels.
@@TheKalkara131what do you think about the 9mm extreme penetrators?
Do u know dragon breath load for bullet velocity
Underwood extreme defender +p+ went through level 2A body armor and 19in gel
I believe you can go wrong with the gold dot you never mentioned the wound channel Once you started going through barriers the Underwood made the same size channel and ive heard far too many stories about denim keeping a hollow point from opening. I carry a Shield with 3.1" barrel I feel more protected since i have discovered the Underwood round.
Thank you for the video.
I'd have to re-watch the video, but I'm pretty sure the GD still opened up in most of the tests, even the clothing test. But I get what you mean, it's why I prefer the XD
@@TheKalkara131have you by chance tested .45, 9mm, or .300 blkout subsonic rds?
Can you put a hard cast 9mm through this same test? Something from Underwood or the Syntech hard cast from Federal?
What's awesome with the underwood 90 grain +p it's going to be a lot lighter when your carrying instead of the 124. Something to think about. Great testing.
I WOULD CARRY EITHER. REAL WORLD SCENERIO YOU WOULD SHOOT DOWN INTO THE GLASS INSTEAD OF FROM A LOWER POSITION. YOUR VIDEO WAS WELL THOUGHT OUT. I WISH I HAD PROPERTY TO TEST WITH AS YOURS. KEEP DOING WHAT YOUR DOING BROTHER.
Two great rounds! Xtreme defender is my favorite for most situations. If you’re shooting in apartments or around people. Winchester silver tips get 11 inches penetration consistently. Gold dot, HST, XTP, xtreme defender are all good penetrating rounds. Just something to think about. I’m alone most of the time but when I have guests it’s silver tips.
Awesome video! Next up, HST 147 grain vs Extreme Defender (non +p versions) :)
The HST could be fun, but I don't imagine the standard pressure Xtreme Defender would perform that much differently. Just a bit slower, so maybe it'd penetrate an inch or two less.
Reliability is about working every time. Penetration and for all rounds, shot placement is key.
Your chronograph won’t work if it is in shadow. It needs clear background above the sensors to see the shadow of the bullet passing. On a bright day, use the diffusers. I get best results on overcast days without diffusers.
Run a comparison adding Hornady critical duty round.
If you want to see how that performs, that's the round Hornady tested on their website that has the FBI test protocol. Google Hornady fbi test, it should be the first result
Gold Dot 124 grain +p best carry round!
I'm a little surprised the Gold Dot showed the temporary stretch cavity as big as it was for all tests. I would have assumed that plugging the cavity would have made it perform more of an icepick type wound channel. Kudos for it's performance. The Xtreme Defender looked like it had an almost identical TSWC regardless of whether it was bare gel, drywall, plywood, steel, glass, or clothing. But that's one of it's advertised features. I have been carrying Federal 124 grain HSTs (both standard pressure and +P) for many years. I've recently begun carrying the Xtreme Defenders in the +P+ version in my Glock 26.3 but remain carrying the HSTs in my G19.5 and CZ P-01.
It might be interesting for you to check out load development and terminal ballistics in the same medium with the same parameters... using the 'extreme penetrator' projectiles, given that they have considerably more robust flutes and have resisted deformation to a much greater degree than the 'defender' in my testing! Also, was there any overlap of penetration channels in the clear ballistics gel... that might have skewed the results given the number of rounds fired into that medium? Overall, you did a very good job with this!
There needs to be more publicized tests on flesh instead of gel for the lehigh bullets.
Until then, the underwood ammo lehigh load main perk is energy, penetration, and barrier blindness. Actual wound cavity in flesh is questionable, but that was always something that wasnt much of a priorty to me in handgun calibers as it only matters several seconds/minutes after i want to hit the offenders off button the moment the trigger is pulled. You either hit something important enough to stop the fight, or you dont.
Gold Dot has a great wound cavity, XDs made the gel bounce more, if you know you know.
Hollow points, are better than FMJ, but still have to expand. They don't always work. Fluted bullets don't have to change to be very effective.
Good testing, thanks. Surprisingly both bullets had almost identical temporary cavities and penetration. The extra mass of the Gold Dot probably helped.
I was issued Gold Dots for the street years ago and that's what I'd stick with. Overpenetration was always the biggest worry and we didn't 'machine gun' our pistols like I'm seeing these days except when you were stuck face to face. Shots were fast, just not wild.
With the gold dot looking like that through glass no way it will do the same thing everytime 👌both did great though
Excellent video. I might be wrong, however, but with the glass test, the XD looked like it penetrated another inch or so and then was sucked back, and perhaps that adjusted depth of penetration is more accurate. In any event, the XD was outstanding, and while your test weapon was the Glock 45, my understanding is that as you drop the barrel length (like to that of the Sig P365), the Gold Dot's expansion and performance degrades, but the XP's performance (since there's nothing to expand) only deviates a small amount. That's why I now carry the XP in my P365 (as well as my Glock 45, and other 9mm, .380, 40 S&W and .45 ACP pistols).
I may have to test that out sometime. I have a Max-9 with almost the same barrel length as a P365.
How is recoil from the XP’s out of the p365?
Yes and although I have two boxes of Underwood on the way, nobody has done a gel test with a Hellcat or a Sig p365
The XD that you though went through the steel at 23:37 and was slightly flattened, it looks like what you called deformed was actually a piece of the steel bonded to the tip of the XD bullet like it was wearing a steel hat as it is silver on top and not copper colored, I bet you could pry that off and the bullet underneath would be almost pristine
Good morning I'm not an expert by any means but from what I've read I don't understand why people shoot the 90 grain out of 4 inch barrels when they're meant from what I've read for compact or subcompact weapons versus the 124 + p to be shot out of a standard 4-inch Barrel therefore making the accuracy test lopsided as far as velocity and impact
I know some people like to use light for caliber loads in sub compacts, because you can get a bit better velocity out of them, but I don't know if they were purpose made for shorter barrels. Either way, I think the test speaks for itself. They both performed adequately, and have extremely similar ft lbs. I've never had any issues with accuracy from the lighter stuff, personally.
I believe that 90 grains is the heaviest xtreme defense bullet that is made for 9mm. As far as I know, they aren’t intended for any specific barrel length. They are made by Lehigh Defense.
I run the +p+ Xtreme Defenders on my full size VP9. I have no worries.
Great vid, lol ya most people don't realize how crazy auto/safety glass is. That stuff is no joke.. If you think about it, it is made to take rocks being tossed by other cars at 40-90+ MPH and not explode, so I was expecting it to be a crazy obstacle.
I ride with the xtreme defenders because we cant carry hollowpoints here. They seem to perform phenomenal in testing through barriers, but for the house, its the Barnes Tacxpd they act like Talons and work best outside of barriers. They're both perfect designs for inside or outside defense. Ive seen a lot of failures in testing the gold dot, but have some gen2 which is supposed to be better.
Try both through a 9mm 16” carbine it’s time for 9mm carbine/rifle speeds👍💨💨💨💨💨💨💨💨💨💨💨
Once I get some kind of pcc I'll have to retry some of my old tests
You deserve much more followers. Exceptional content!
To me it looked like the gold dot had better wound cavities. Also I don't know if I like the penetration on the extreme defenders. I'll stick with Gold dots or HSTs
Both of them are solid choices I'd say. I like the XDs because, in the unlikely event I have to shoot through a barrier, they're less likely to deform and will perform as they should. As far as penetration, clear ballistics gel doesn't show that as closely to human tissue as organic gel. Besides, I think overpenetration is a overblown issue regardless.
@P Bloxam they are not the way of the future they mostly over marketed gimmicks.
The real difference between the Xtreme Defender and most hollow points is not just barriers, but bones. Most hollow points will clog and fail to expand when they hit bone.
Bottom line...... In almost most citizen related shootings where a citizen has to draw. Either will work fine.
Bone is a very tough barrier for lead hollow points, for consistent expansion, I've shot both Speer Gold Dot Federal HST and extreme Defenders through coconuts wallboard plywood into water jugs and the HST and the Speer Gold Dot do not penetrate as deep as the extreme Defenders
Even the Xtreme penetration rounds work phenomenal on large game and even for defense against them in a pinch when hunting. I definitely feel well protected out in the wild with them
Great test, perfectly executed. Thanks for all of the time you put into it!
Either one are more than adequate for "self defense"
What? HST beats gold dot all day lkmg
IMO you did a great job with this test overall. I'm sold on the Lehigh defense Extreme Defenders and Extreme Penetrators for my 9mm defense ammo. The performance is the best and most reliable through any barrier or clothing.
I'd be careful about the Xtreme penetrators. I tested one once, and it zipped straight through two entire blocks like it was nothing. Sliiiiightly more than 12-18" 😂
Ugg why 90gr wanted to see the 68gr
A 9mm round i dont ever see anyone talk about much less test is the 100gr solid copper sellier&bellot xrg ....i found them to be really nasty lil s.o.b's expands nice and best yet reasonably priced if not cheap compared to just about everything else
I may pick up a box and do a gel test on them. Thanks for the idea, hadn't heard of them
Clear gel and FBI gel not the same. Oops, spoke to soon.
We have to get you MORE VIEWS AND SUBSCRIBERS! I watched because i use the 8mm 124gr +P Gold Dots from Double Tap.Was always curious where both the GDs and UWPs performed. Have confidencee in my GDs now, THANK YOU for the work/time in making this!
You would change your mind if you measured bullets spread. Gold Dot ended up producing larger wound channel 😑
According to Sydney Vail, MD, the temporary stretch for most any handgun rounds is too small to really matter. So a larger wound channel is good and all, but practically I'm doubting it'll make much difference. According to the ballistics experts at the FBI, penetration is the most important factor for handgun rounds.
Both are winners. Nothing to complain about with either nor is there anything with which to be disappointed. I would still stay with the old tried & true at this point because I am older and don't change easily. However, the results I have been seeing from this new technology are encouraging and maybe even impressive. Well done. Thank you for doing the dirty work for all of us.
Hornady critical duty would be really cool to see! Great video!
Go check out the website where I found the information about the FBI Barrier Test. They have videos demonstrating the stages, and they actually use the Critical Duty round!
Does the 90 grain underwood have a gold or silver primer?
Mine came with silver. The +p+ xd 90 has gold primers.
For the FBI test aren’t you using the wrong type of gelatin?
Clear gel isn't the same as organic gel that the FBI uses, correct. However, for one it's all I got, so it's what I'm using. Two, the difference between them isn't all that much, especially with pistol rounds.
Tried and true gold dot that’s my round i wonder how the 124+p hst does?
I have little doubt it'd perform well too. I may try it sometime
Great job on the testing. Props to the Gold Dot, a great round and work of art when fully expanded. Expectedly the 90gr XD lost more momentum vs 124gr GD on the hardest barrier being lighter and through a decrease in sectional density due to nose deformation; basically becoming a wad cutter. This is a good reason to avoid the lighter 68gr XD and opt for the 90gr +P+ to maximize XD's velocity based action. I wonder if Lehigh can further increase the hardness of the copper formula for glass barriers and still allow for rifling deformation.
For sectional density to increase, a bullet’s diameter would need to decrease when hitting a barrier. If a bullet diameter increases, as it does with hollow point expansion or flattening deformation, sectional density decreases.
I wonder what the outcome would’ve been had you used the Underwood Gold Dot to get velocity up closer to the Xtreme Defender.
No idea, it really depends on how the GD bullet performs at higher velocities. The typical reaction is it hits the gel harder, with more energy, ergo it expands quicker and larger. More drag on the bullet for longer results in less penetration. But ballistics is weird, because sometimes that extra energy is enough to push that larger expanded round deeper, sometimes not. Sometimes it's too much energy for the bullet design and it expands TOO much, causing the petals to peel too far back and making it actually smaller. I may pick up a box and compare it to the Speer loading.
According to their respective websites, Underwood doesn't load 124gr GD +P much hotter than Speer (1225 v 1220) while Underwood's GD +P+ is 1300. The Underwood 90gr XD is 1400, +P is 1475, +P+ is 1550. Would another 80fps make that much difference?
@@MeMadeIt Who knows? Guess I'll have to pick up some Underwood Gold Dots and test them out
Underwood discontinued Their Gold Dot line. They can't get the bullets in so they took it off their website.
@@nelsonr1467 they still have certain grains and calibers in stock. I guess it’s their final stock. Crazy to see such a star go.
The human heart is only three inches deep!
I've been telling women for years that 3" is enough!
For real though, there's other factors to consider. If the threat is at some kind of angle, not perfectly straight to you. Different types of clothing, possibly an arm in the track of your bullet if he's holding a gun or knife himself. And, the most important issue with that argument is always that penetration in ballistics gel is not the same as penetration in a human body. Ballistics gel is all the same material, it's homogeneous. The human body is made up of many different materials, skin, muscle, fat, bone, tendon, different organs. The smart scientists and doctors from the FBI Ballistics Lab came up with the 12-18" standard, I didn't just randomly pick the numbers.
Nice video not exactly an expert demonstration but better than some I've seen nice job I carry spear Gold Dot 124GR +p but after watching many videos I'm going with Extreme Defender 68GR +p Extreme Defender for 2 reasons the villosity is greater and the weight 1oz lighter the main reason is the villosity.
I appreciate it. I don't try to claim to be an expert. I'm a gun nut with a phone, that's about it. I may spend more time researching and reading up on stuff like this, but it's not like it's my job
@@TheKalkara131 I would I watch a lot of RUclips videos and you did a good job.
@@TheKalkara131 Great job buddy! You were humble the entire video
Excellent test, but the main take away that you missed, but still caught on video is the cavitation (both temporary and permanent). Those wound channels are what causes the trauma that ends the fight. I have carried gold dots and critical duty ammo for years with confidence and still view them highly. But what I have seen with the Underwood loadings of the Lehigh Xtreme Defense projectiles is simply amazing. The near uniform penetration despite barriers (auto safety glass screws up the ballistics of everything, AP included) is what made me switch to Underwood Xtreme Defender loads. Not knocking Gold Dot at all, I still think it is great ammo.
Love to see this test in 10mm.
700 hundredth like 👍🏻 Just ordered some and I’m binge watching videos. Great info bud
Hey kalkara! I got some ammo I would want to send your way. It’s from a company called g9. It’s their external hollow point. It seems to behave similar to the Underwood but is more efficient in the testing I’ve done. Please let me know if you’re interested . G9 also has some third party testing on their site as well.
I just stager them in my magazine.
Ah yes, a great way to expose your lack of training and understanding of the illusive defensive scenario.
@@TerminalM193 That is some serious psychological projection you've got going on there...
@@archaicsage4803 I'm rubber, you're glue....
@@TerminalM193 You are also a child apparently...
@@archaicsage4803 Oh? Elementary insults huh? Well, hate to stoop to your level but.... Why don't you stager these 🔩🔩
Thanks for the video. Nice to see the comparison. Personally I only carry 124 grain +P HPs, Speer Gold Dot, and when I rotate those out I have some Fed HST to replace them. The light for caliber rounds do have great velocity of course, and the Lehigh bullet design is genius. But if you have a fixed sight carry gun (which most of us do) the point of impact can be a lot different, and nothing you can do about it except using 'Kentucky windage' to compensate. Doesn;t matter if all you care about it 'get off me" close range defense of course, but I like my point of impact to be closer to center of aim. So I stick with normal for caliber bullet weights, and keep my practice ammo as close to the same weight and velocity as I can. I use Win. NATO 124s for practice, and carry the Gold Dot 124 +P
I like the Extreme Defender rounds in my Colt Defender 45ACP and the Gold Dots in my HKVP9SK. Great video.
Extremely well done! I saw the Mac video on this in order about $200 worth of the ammo. Both +p and +p+, and I'm liking the consistency in penetration and expansion. Haven't been shot myself with a 38 hollow point and my son was shot with a 45 ACP hollow point, luckily neither of which expanded due to the hollow point filling with material, I'm thankful. But also learning from the lesson that you need to get the best expansion and consistent expansion no matter what. Which is why I purchased the Underwood ammo. With that said I am not going to shoot up all of my HST, and gold dot, and XTP, and hydra shock, on the short term it's all modern ammo and it's also good. Since underwood was running a sale of $22.80 for a box of 20 which is comparable to the other ones I figured what the heck. You have earned a sub and a like. Thank you very much for this informative video.
There is one other factor to consider, as much as we paid for Underwood we had to use them. I was ashamed to think I'd given that much and not carried em. lol
The underwood should be legal in new jersey...hollowpoints aren't.
You also have to take into consideration the temperature of the gel the idea temperature is 45 degrees
Good velocity on both and both are acceptable for defence. Dot looked good on gypsum.
Excellent presentation. Well done, sir. Thank you.
Algorithm
Use hemostats to get the bullets out; it’s less destructive on the gel.
Great work bigguy, Thanks 🎯👍
Awesome. Will just alternate these rounds in my self defense magazines.
I'm curious how either of these rounds would do out of my 3.1" shield plus. I'm seeing many tests indicating that you're better off going 147g HST & 147g Ranger T-Series if using shorter barrel pistols.
Ranger T clogs horribly with heavy clothing and shows to be very inconsistent in bare gel expansion.
124g+p HST is a little better out of shorter barrels than the 147g from what I've seen, but the 147 does tackle barriers a little better and it's weight carries it's energy to further distances. The 68g+p Xtreme Defenders are awesome, and seem to me to be the best barrier blind self defense round today, better than the 90g+p XD. Sucks they're so expensive usually at around 1.20 and up/round
I usually carry 124g+p HST in shorter barrels and buy them up when they get below .85/round. They preform exceptionally well out of shorter barrels. Far better than Gold Dot or Ranger T
Great test thank you for your time and the expense my friend.
The 9mm 90 gr XD doesn't have enough velocity to perform to it's potential. The Underwood 357 Sig 65 gr XD however does have the needed velocity, 2100 fps!
The potential of those rounds will be different, considering they're both different weight and in different calibers. Obviously the 65 gr bullet will be going faster, its like 30% lighter.
They both look very good. However, clear ballistic gel is not what is used by the FBI in testing. They use organic gel such as Knox gelatin. You will generally see better expansion and a much better defined permanant wound path in organic gel
I know they don't use clear ballistics, but organic gel is harder to come by and you have to keep it at a certain temperature. As far as expansion and wound path, neither are truly represented in organic gel either, vs in a human body. Too many variables in a human body that aren't shown in organic gel. I use only clear ballistics gel, so I can compare how the different rounds act against each other from using the same medium.
I would use eather one of them they both done real good
Should do 223 gold dot. 223 controlled chaos and 223 drt. Been binge watching a lot of your videos man.
Thanks for watching, I hope you enjoy them! I'm going to do a comparison of the 62gr GD and the 53gr V-max at some point
Good job buddy I love the video keep up the good work
Both did very well. But I'd stick with the Gold Dot because of the expansion. But you didn't measure that. That extra expansion might just cause a bit more trauma. However, if I were in a juristiction that prohibited hollow points, I'd go with the Underwood for sure.
Very interesting and informative video. Well done!!! I've carried and used the Speer Gold Dot 9 mm, 9 mm+P in both 124 grain and 147 gr G2 versions. Both rounds are Street Proven Self Defense and Law Enforcement shootings. But Leigh Defense XD +P was consistent at penetration depth. I would say that both rounds are adequate for Self Defense usage and for penetration of barriers. Stay Safe and Watch your Six.
People tend to forget the fact is that round nose bullets proved their effectiveness before expanding ammo was even a thing. Don't remember if this is a whole book or just a paper but there's a forensic pathologist with like 9000 gun shot wound autopsies done and he goes over how it looks from his perspective and basically he says penetration > everything else. Penetration is what will stop your target not expansion. He says he can't tell what kind of bullet was used by the wound, they all look the same. It's the kinetic shock that's doing all the damage and the shape of the bullet makes no real difference as long as you meet minimum penetration. Going back to the basics it's going to be the kinetic energy that will be the biggest deciding factor, bullets with similar foot pounds or joules will have similar damage no matter what the bullets are and even no matter what the caliber is. A spicy 9mm is going to do the same damage as a average .45 because energy is similar. Using some common sense a lighter bullet will have less recoil, so my 68 grain xd loaded to 1825 fps will have less recoil than a 124g bullet load with comparable energy. Smaller diameter = better penetration. Only downside is going to be ballistic coefficient, lighter bullet will lose energy faster than a heavier bullet but for this to make any real difference you would have to get way outside of effective hand gun range anyway so the way I see it lighter bullet > heavier bullet for the majority of self defense applications. I feel like expanding ammo gets too much credit simply because it's used by so many people and law enforce there's really no way to compare if it actually made any difference if say a fmj was used instead.
Good video. I’ll stick with my usual 124-147 grain goldots and HST’s. Lighter than a 115 grain your asking for reliability issues. For instance your slide not locking back with the x defender. Can’t carry something unreliable. Always stick with 124 grain or heavier for SD loads in 9mm.
Please explain... I'm honestly curious. How does a lighter grain cause reliability issue?
@@mmafanatic-tz5or as long as the powder charge is strong enough to blowback the slide properly, bullet grain doesnt affect that right?, I also am confused why the weight grain of the bullet affects feeding issues? unless they are subsonics which have lower fps..
Today don't you need to assume your opponent is wearing body armor?
It's definitely something you should consider, however I don't really know of any bullets that can reliably penetrate armor and not just ice pick straight through the body. I'm a fan of practicing the Mozambique drill for that issue.
Good job, thanks.
Those Gold Dot's held up really good through all the barriers. I wonder what those two rounds would look like going through a pork and bone, to simulate real targets? Great test.
The only issue I have with using that kind of target is you need to shoot a lot more of it to get any usable results. There's more variables with that kind of target. Only meat, direct hit on bone, barely a glancing hit on bone, half hit on bone, etc. Ballistics gel is convenient because it's always the same medium, every shot. So the results can be more directly compared.
@@TheKalkara131 Thanks. I know it would be costly and a bit wasteful to do the bone test, but I figure too that would play into real performance too.
Nice video. Very thorough and well put together.
Thank you
Great video! 👍
Well done.
The 90 +p is a good, very accurate round. It has less recoil. For smaller pistols like the kahr or diamondback, intended for pocket, ideal weight and performance. I matched the 68 +p xd vs. The 90 +p at the range for accuracy. I used my diamondback db9 micro. Results favored the 90. Much more accurate and less jumpy. I use the 68+p in my larger pistols.
Love the 68 gr xtreme defenders in my bodyguard 380.
@@allenbolen9705 in 380 its an excellent choice. Only thing is that round can get pushed back in its case with repeated reloads. Try this maybe sometime, Federal punch 99 hydrashok deep. This 1 is perfect down to 2.75 lcp size.
@@won8135 I don’t reload unfortunately but will keep it in mind.
Does the FBI use Clear gel, or organic ballistics gel Knox
They use organic gel that has to be kept at a certain tsmp
Knox
That Extreme Defender would be fantastic in a shorter barrel like the 3.1" barrel M&P Shield Micro
Once I get a few longer barrels, I'm going to do a test on the XD with various lengths.
If the Extreme Defender pernitrates that well, imagine if you compared the Extreme PENETRATOR!
@@RU2AIM I tried the XP in gel once. Zipped straight through 2 gel blocks, 32" with no issues. Hunting it would be good, but too much for self defense. That's a ton of overpenetration
@@TheKalkara131 Yeah, I guess...
Unless you didn't like your neighbors. 😁
First of all great video and presentation. You deserve more views. I feel you're pushing the xd, they almost fail in the 6 stage and I don't think they did all that damage. I wonder why they don't get any agency contract if they are so amazing. More spread maybe in the gold dots but they work in every stage, they're street proven. Not agree with the conclusions. You did a great work 👍
I love ammo tests, I have gold dot 124 grain +p in my 92x next to me. I have two boxes of these and HSTs 124 grain +p. FYI if you see the flame in the block it's a chemical reaction it's normal.
Thanks man! Great test. Exactly what I’ve been looking for. I’ve been debating the critical duty vs the gold dot. After seeing this I’m leaning towards the gold dot. Great performance.
The extreme defender is an interesting design, but the principle behind its wounding mechanism is is unproven as of yet unless there’s something I’ve missed.
There is a video out there of a guy who shot a hog with an Extreme Defender 95 gr. +P. He was impressed with its performance. There are so many variables when it comes to choosing good defensive ammo. I’m thinking of switching from HSTs 124 gr. to the Extreme Defenders, as my barrel length is only 3.1 inches; another variable to be considered. Good luck!
Great Video!
I mostly use critical duty 135 +p for my 2nd mags, as I always would want to have that barrier blind deep reaching round if in a gun fight. Otherwise it is HSTs, Gold Dots on my main magazines and always 124gr and always +p (true Nato).
But couple of observations
1- with HSTs and Gold dots I experience bullet set back/ receding ( round becomes shortened) or casing dimples (i called them)
2- Hornady critical duty( and Critical defense for that matter) bullet projectiles never recede.
3- Horady’s bullet design is the most reliable for feeding.
I don’t know about that Philips screw driver.
The Underwood Defender Defender looks like the penetration king with good wound channel performance.
Thanks for a definitive test.