The manga clearly displays that Beerus is above Belmod in my opinion. Beerus is focus by the other Gods of destruction and handles them pretty well. Quitela seemed to be the only challenge.
The issue I always have with Super debates is the fact that the manga is ignored! In the manga, Beerus clearly displays he’s the strongest God of Destruction because they all attacked him and Beerus didn’t have much trouble with them. He defeated Belmod which is supposedly weaker than Jiren in the anime, so that can’t be left out
The manga had clearly shows that all the hakaishins are relative to each other.. It doesn't matter who is the strongest even the weakest Hakaishin would Still be able to fight on par with the strongest Hakaishin to an extent
My biggest problem with this argument is the fact that Jiren pushed Goku to UI. Broly smacked him around so hard he never even got the chance. Broly was also fighting a version of Goku and Vegeta, who were WAY past the previous limits they had in that tournament- and even if they were relative- (which they were not, due to how saiyans work) Broly finally going all out still put them down no diff without trying. DBS-Super Hero Broly who still puts the NEW Ultra Instinct/Ego saiyans on edge to fight with, would mop Jiren if a weaker UI Goku was able to go toe to toe with Jiren, but doesn't even wanna swap hands with a semi trained Broly. Until we see Jirens new level, he caps out at ToP UI, and Broly is relative if not stronger than POST Granolah UI (Edit for Manga Only)- You also can't have a Manga only precise argument, while choosing to ignore statements due to them not making sense personally. Jiren was beaten still in Manga alone. Take no other anime feats of Broly, and use JUST the Manga. The context of Granolahs wish was to be the strongest, surpassing the Goku that fought ToP Jiren. Goku and Vegeta caught up to that, gained new transformations, and then still stated later AFTER training for Black Freiza that Broly is on their level. Again thats just putting the jolly green giant back up to post Granolah UI/Ego. Which is just so far above ToP UI that you can't in good confidence say Broly isn't currently stronger than Jiren until we see Jirens new levels.
Not that they couldn't, they just immediately ran away for a better and quicker solution Broly wasn't giving them any chances to transform into ssbkkx20 or ssb evolution
@@Zeno1781the reason they didn't go ssbkk and evolved blue, is because toryiama didn't make those transformation's, so they aren't cannon to his story.
@@chilledmenace1053 The movie literally aired after the ToP lol. Jiren & Broly is close but I'm leaning with Broly because he fought post-ToP Goku & Vegeta, and to top it off he managed to overpower SSJ Gogeta but got faded (as most would) by SSB Gogeta.
My only thing is that, while yes Jiren has better control of his ki, and doesn’t need to power up. Broly in his very FIRST real fight took on a Goku and Vegeta who have trained and battled their whole lives. Even Jiren has trained his whole life. Broly has only ever trained with his dad. In the movie frieza stated that him training Broly was practically worthless. Let’s give Broly the same training as everyone else and see who wins in a more “fair” sense for lack of a better word. It’s pretty impressive that his first real fight with anyone ever, and he’s being compared to a immortal destroyer who’s had millions of years of training🤷🏻♂️ Broly even caught up to SSJ Gogeta and made him transform into SSB. He broke his limits 3-4 times in a day with just his sheer potential alone.
The moment Broly controls his mind and awakens god ki, there’s no way goku and Vegeta should realistically have any chance of keeping up. That includes gohan.
15:30 but gogeta isn’t a naturally occurring being. I’m pretty positive when they say he’s the strongest sayian they’re speaking in terms of naturally occurring sayains, not a fusion of two
yeah, that was a weird forced arguement. It's like saying during the cell saga, the piccolo is the strongest version of piccolo, but then someone says actually Perfect Cell is the strongest version of Piccolo as he has Piccolo cells
Agreed. Check game continuities (which are some of the highest-grossing sources for the IP, so they must have reliability), the fusions are not "Saiyans".
OK I'm glad I wasn't the only one who found that such a weird argument. I was like "how is that such a hard statement to wrap your head around?" I get that as a fusion of two saiyans, Gogeta is technically a saiyan, but... it's pretty easy to figure out what that statement was likely referring to.
Ok so if jiren>all god of destruction and he couldnt beat UI goku but UI goku in granola arc gets oneshoted by black frieza and beerus is supposedly stronger then black freiza then does that mean jiren in TOP could beat current frieza and beerus? Its getting confusing. No way jiren is stronger then characters after TOP. Those god of destruction statements hold no weight anymore after TOP.
@God_Enjoyer well they used both the manga and anime which are supposed to be canon to the main story and in both jiren is implied to be stronger then God's of destruction. The anime will eventually adapt the manga anyway and its safe to say the overall scaling is still the same.
@@God_Enjoyerregardless i think main villains should narratively be the same in strength especially because they share the main points. On top of that the broly arc was summed up in a page which makes me assume that it shares anime canon
I love how some people just assumed that Jiren just stopped training. Like, everyone. understand that Jiren has another goal now. So, think about that for a moment. Jiren is still getting stronger but now he's more open about getting stronger with others now. He got that strong by himself, now imagine how strong he's currently getting while training with others including his GOD and Angel.
To be fair, there's literally no way to figure out how strong a Jiren that we haven't seen in literally over half a decade real time would be, really hope the next movie and/or DBS Season 2 show off current Jiren
Bro this is dragon ball, You know damn well he's gonna be irrelevant by his next appearance. Gonna get his ET cheeks clapped effortlessly by the new antagonist to make them look cooler the same way they hoed Hit.
@@wanted2657Beerus went Omen UI and crapped on all the other gods of destruction except that mouse guy who he went pretty much toe to toe with. Didn't even need healing afterwards.
I think Beerus would react if there was someone close to him in power, and all he did was sneeze. When he reacted to Jiren's power, he couldn't even fathom it was coming from one guy. And then there's the thing of Broly supposedly beating Frieza a whole hour and he was still alive. Jiren swat him like a fly in 5 seconds while holding back.
I mean you’re right but I feel like the Frieza thing is more having to do with Frieza’s insane durability and Jiren’s better ability to control his power. Jiren’s average strikes might be weaker than Broly’s but Jiren’s strongest strike is another level.
One important section of guides that I think were missed were the V-jump and Saikyo jump scans talking about Broly in DBS Superhero, which double down on the DBS Broly statements and then some.
V jump is a false authority I mean have you seen the Cooler Movie power levels in which Cooler who beat on Goku in Kaioken times 20 took one look at post zenkai Goku and stated that he could see why Goku could beat Frieza, yet FF Cooler is scaled to 470 million whereas Full power FF Frieza is 120 million and base Goku would need to be around that tier in the Cooler movie; let alone times 20.
Unless you can 100% claify what they mean when they call him the "strongest". I dont really see how those help here as even Gohan is called the "strongest" in that movie.
I'm pretty sure Toyotaro said that Broly was stronger than MUI Goku after the Moro Arc. I think the direct quote from him is "Goku may have seemed perfect by the end of the Moro arc, but he still has plenty of room to grow: why, there's Whis, Beerus, Broly, and the Grand Priest!" This statement also confirms that end of Moro Goku isn't as strong as Beerus.
@ningenslayer6306 It was a live interview, so I don't think it was. It's on the official DB website too. Then again, it could just be the fault of bad translators.
Actually it is incorrect. Toyotaro never stated that, but it was the interviewer. Broly was never stated to be stronger than Goku in Moro saga, it's quite the opposite
i feel like broly being stated to be the strongest after jiren and being that its a fight after the top just off virtue of how the series works broly has to be stronger
@@wanted2657 that was maybe that dumbest thing you could have said considering goku was never stronger than beerus in battle of gods and ddnt even scale to him at all so what are you even talking about
@@vont8364 goku was never stronger than beerus is obvious dumbass. I'm just using your logic that current antagonist>past antagonist but ig you just skip that entirely
@@vont8364 he was trying to debunk you but failed horrible. Like yeah Beerus is still the strongest enemy lol. But he’s the very CLEARLY OBVIOUS exception that goes without saying..
@@pandaboss5085You need to reread the manga, Beerus just managed to dodge the first few attacks using a degree of UI, barely strong enough escape Mosco's grip strength, and managed to trick everyone into thinking he was sent flying, even then, his sneak attack energy ball did no damage to all of the GoDs. Afterwards it devolved into an all out brawl between all the GoDs and Beerus was barely standing as one of the last contestants before the Grand Priest stopped the fighting. Beerus did not at all "destroy" the GoDs, at best, he has showings of being able to partially tap into UI at will and is very intelligent, capable of tricking the others mid fight.
This entire debate to me is annoying because I feel Ike there’s this lack of acknowledgement that Broly has no real training prior to fighting Goku and Vegeta. Even if you wanna say that Broly capped at his Wrath State, that’s literally a result of his lack of proper training. If Broly had any moment of training with Whis, I know Jiren has no chance against him
@@lifeisntcanon but what is Jiren training for? In the manga he beats Goku! I know the anime shows him losing but it was by a combined effort of Goku, Frieza and Android 17. We mention Brody needs training because we saw the endless potential he possesses, especially when he’s adapting mid fight. If Whis specifically trains him, the way he did Goku and Vegeta, Broly would beat Jiren
@@lifeisntcanon we're not disregarding the idea that Jiren is probably training. It's just that Broly has never properly trained before, so his growth would be crazy
For the anime when it comes to Jiren vs Broly the main points in favour Jiren is the stronger than GoDs statements but I don't see how that matters when Broly could just scale above him. Its undeniable that the Goku and Vegeta Broly faces are much stronger than they were in the ToP not to mention he goes up against their fusion. You'd have to argue that the boost in UI is larger than the boost goku gets as gogeta. Which is unlikely as the series hypes up fusion as this rare event that can only happen in emergency situations, which they wouldn't if Goku could just reach a state on his own that gives him a bigger increase. There's also the trend that in almost every successive arc the main antagonist is stronger than the last one, as an example Cell was way stronger than Frieza.
I'll bite 1. Using the story progression as an argument for why Brody is stronger is dumb as using that exact same logic the 1st enemy they fight in.super is beerus so logically golden frieze who they fought afterwards >> beerus right? (Wrong) 2. It's not only the gods statements but feats that jiren puts out in general vs broly > base jiren legitimately one shot k.o'ing golden frieza vs ssj Brody ragdolling but failing to k.o frieza for over an hour (no broly was not holding back, and no frieza isn't a saiyan where he gets buffs post fight so he's still the same as his top self) >jiren k.o'ing mui goku not once but thrice unlike broly who got neg diffed the moment gogeta went blue (this is just to clarify broly isn't close to gogeta) >If we're goin off hype of forms as a measurement to scale I'll just remind you that whis himself advised goku and vegeta against fusing as they'd lose both fighters (meaning even whis wasn't confident they take down jiren with fusion) talk less of the fact that u.i is a technique that even the gods don't know
@@wanted2657 1. I said ALMOST every main antagonist, not to mention you brought up one exception out of the many other examples my point still stands. 2.The Frieza that Jiren one shot was weaker than the one in the Broly movie, there's also the fact that Broly was only in ssj he gets much stronger while fighting Gogeta so him not koing doesn't mean much. I'm not saying Frieza is a saiyan but the fact is he gets stronger as the ToP progresses, pre-ToP he ties against a much weaker SSB Goku that would lose to GoD Top who Frieza took multiple hits from. There's the end of ToP which portrays Goku and Frieza as relative which can only work if he got stronger from what he was pre ToP. To say Broly got negdiffed is a stretch he still took several hits from SSB Gogeta and survived, which you have to be somewhat relative to do otherwise he'd be one shot. Whis never advised against Goku and Vegeta fusing, he said that in response to the possibility of android 17 and 18 fusing. And even then he just brought that up as something to keep in mind as what could happen not for sure. The gods know of UI they just haven't fully achieved it, Beerus even has it to some extent. My point with fusion has less to do with hype and moreso meta story reasoning. Fusion is one of the most popular parts of the franchise and a big part of that is because of how strong it is, the people who run the franchise know this it's why it doesn't come often and whenever they do appear they bully their opponents. There's no way they let fusion get powercliffed by UI.
Anyone who seriously thinks Jiren would be enough to contend with Gogeta Blue even giving the benefit of the doubt to consider it being Gogeta comprised of post-Black Arc Goku and Vegeta, would have some mighty copium to swallow. The Story Progression theory might have a few kinks in the logic but it's reasonable enough to assume since it's been well established that some villains just happen to be stronger than previous ones. (i.e. Raditz to Vegeta to Ginyu to Frieza to Cell to Buu, i think you could see the point) Golden Frieza surviving Super Saiyan Broly for an hour shouldn't be counted against Broly, that should be a personal feat for Frieza. Jiren mollywhopped both Blue Goku and Golden Frieza, which Super Broly did the exact same for, completely sweeping any of their attacks. And if we have to account for placement of timeline, this Golden Frieza is post-ToP as well, which does still matter since irregardless of Frieza's lack of access to Zenkai boosting, he still managed to maintain his Golden form until AFTER Gogeta prevents him from shooting down Cheelai and Lemo's ship (meaning his stamina and endurance obviously improved afterward). Whis advised against fusion due to a few simple facts: - Vegeta and Goku were sporadically in different points of power to even consider using the dance to use (the only point in this being viable is if they did it during their kaioken blue evolution powerup) RIGHT in front of enemy lines, let alone use potaras since they didn't have any on hand. - Vegeta didn't know the Dance, and when he did, it took them about an hour just to get it right (gambling on time they don't have). Whis didn't advise against Fusion because the Fusion wouldn't beat Jiren, it's because it wasn't a viable option to use given their circumstances. I personally think Jiren and Broly's win factors have to be decided on context. Starting base? Obviously Jiren. Starting Full Power? Would have to go to Broly considering he not only adapted horrifically fast to Base and Super Gogeta, but had enough endurance to prevent him from bleeding once from most of Gogeta Blue's attacks. Jiren has been shown to fatigue following the fight from MUI. Broly hadn't fatigued until Gogeta went Blue to put him in check. (literally just got back from partying so this is just me throwing my hat in the ring don't mind me)
@@wanted2657 Frieza IS TRAINING. You jiren fanboys are so quick to point out that in your dreams the meathead is training all the time but you absolutely refuse to believe that other characters keep getting stronger... Frieza wanted to rebuild his empire, he knew about the levels Goku and Vegeta are reaching, he learned the value of training and he wants to surpass them (which he DID in the manga), so no, there's no possibility of Frieza being exactly the same as during ToP. You're only saying that to make your garbage meathead look better.
@@johnman8398 1. This is also an exception as its clear broly ain't shit (I also forgot about this golden frieza is stronger than hit [in manga], [anime] hit > goku black). Your point doesn't stand 2. Why did frieza suddenly become stronger when it's never stated or implied? Pre-top do you honestly believe frieza was goin all out before the tournament? Saying he got stronger cuz he took more hits from god toppo isnt a good argument (lmao bcuz I'm pretty sure even with how durable he is, he only ate 4 hits from Topps before goin down). I also don't think you realise this but a near death goku being relative to a pretty rested up frieza isn't a good thing for frieza (in fact you can downscale frieza even more with that but I wont). Finally frieza showcases you don't need to be relative to eat some hits from others (case in point broly/god toppo). Broly is nowhere close to ssb gogeta 2.????? Mf why would beerus talk about a fusion of 17 and 18 to fight and beat JIREN when 18 had already been long ringed out?? Beerus specifically talked bout goku and vegeta doin the same after Kefla did so as he saw that as a way for them to beat jiren which whis refused. The very fact that whis of all pple is advising against something like this should speak for itself on how much stronger jiren was in comparison to anyone there 3. Meta story reasons.....?? You're joking right? Let's just skip over >buu vs gotenks >ssb fullpower goku vs fused zamasu (pre-fap arm) >goku vs kefla I love vegito more than any other character on the series but he did the exact opposite of bullying zamasu. Skip the fact that u.i is a technique of the gods that not even BEERUS himself has learnt (nevermind u.i now also being a very popular part of the franchise since its addition).
During Moro arc they said Goku was stronger than Broly at that point. And the reason why they left UI Goku out of the Broly movie is because the fight would end in 10sec but instead they decided to make Gogeta canon instead💯
UI isn't canon to the movies. Fun fact, there are three continuities. The Anime, Manga and the Movies. In the Anime Goku needed MUI to surpass Beerus, in Manga he hasn't, because, in those continuities, SSB is nothing to Beerus. But in RF, the movie, Whis himself states that Goku and Vegeta in SSB together could/can defeat Beerus. Yet, in the Broly movie, both Goku and Vegeta fight Broly together, and get mowed down with ease, and Broly goes on to destroy Freeza for an hour. In Toriyama's original draft for the TOP, Goku didn't get MUI or UIS. Jiren was defeated when Goku, Vegeta, Freeza and 17 jumped him. Broly fought three stronger versions of the four guys that Jumped Jiren and won with ease. And Broly got stronger, far stronger. Strong enough to force Gogeta to skip SSJ 2, 3 and God straight to SSB, who would absolutely steamroll Jiren. Heck, a guide even states that Broly still could've won if he could control his power, because contrary to what Kale would lead you to believe, if you can't control your power, then that makes you weaker.
@@RitzTVYT that was a marketing strategie but it wasn’t facts, Broly will remain the legendary SSJ but he won’t be able to surpass Goku this point in the manga
and Goku has only fought Beerus once, when he wasnt even using 1% of his power.. so him saying Broly might be stronger than Beerus is absolutely silly considering there's no way in hell he knows how strong Beerus actually is, and Jiren def aint stronger than Beerus, and yall gotta be stupid to think that belmod > beerus
Btw, the kanji used to describe broly is "多分" (Tabun), which can also mean maybe/might/possibly instead of probably. It's really vague what the kanji can be without any further context. It's just meant to express uncertainty. So we can't even assume goku is saying "probably"
Broly: Are you the strongest because I won't be able to adapt enough? Or are you I won't be able to adapt enough because you're the strongest? Jiren: Nah, I'd blink.
I love the fact that it was mentioned how jiren went from getting beat up by MUI Goku to surpassing him in just a couple minutes. Because most of the time Broly fans argue that Broly will just “outgrow” Jiren in power by time but in reality jiren grew more powerful than Broly in a shorter period of time since Broly alone beat up Frieza for more than an hour.
He didn’t though. Jiren was already relative to UI to start with. He was inferior to it prior to breaking his limit, but he still wasn’t far behind. Nowhere near to the extent that Broly was in the beginning. Plus Jiren had to train his entire life to get to where he was at throughout the Tournament of Power. Broly went from being weaker than Base Vegeta to stronger than SSJ Gogeta. That’s a far bigger jump in power than anything we seen from Jiren.
@@BamBamBinBin yeah so the ssb goku that shows up in what a month/little after top is stronger than mui goku according to you. Yeah no point in debating you lol. Thats just pure goofball thinking
I think it depends. If jiren wants to make it quick, he’ll kill broly instantly before he gets a chance to get mad, but if he waits and tries to fight him at full power with his own full power, at one point he’s gonna get overpowered
@@Cohagenmods lol there's tons of statements and material for the movie from 2018 stating "He's the strongest enemy" or "the strongest of all" it's really not that hard to find. A lot of it is in Japanese of course so if you can't read it or find a translation I can't help that.
I mean yeah the manga discussion is a bit more complex than the anime one mainly due to the lack of Broly content. Like mentioned, Belmond is different, Beerus keeps getting stronger, etc. It is kinda wild current Goku and Vegeta still struggle agaisnt Beerus. They just keep scaling Beerus up. I dunno what's your opinion on current Manga Goku's power but I certainly believe it is way higher than what he showed in the Tournament agaisnt Jiren. Would he beat Jiren solo now? Or is Jiren still just that powerful? I struggle to accept Manga Beerus is weaker than Jiren. If only we saw Broly going all out agaisnt current Goku or something then we'd have a better foundation to build on.
Ok so this is a really old argument the main i want to hear from six is if jiren can just blink broly away that means hes 2× stronger than gogeta blue at the very least are you guys implying jiren is beyond max fusion blue level?
Also carthu makes such a redudant statement saying its not fair to write off jirens potential when in 48 minutes he surpassed himself. See the problem with that is he was casually already unquantifiably stronfer than ui omen 3 so saying ah yes he got stronger by an unquantifiable margin against mui goku isnt an an argument especially because broly went from a power level of 100k in the movie to straight up going past vegetas super saiyan form to then beyond gokus super saiyan form then his god form and his blue form then both of thier blue forms even attempting to say jiren has the same ballpark of potential broly has is disengenous as for him capping out no it was never stated he capped out in ikari he was still getting stronger against goku but because goku was blue he was just far far too strong for broly as goku was beating on him. Then for a quick power up freiza made him go super saiyan nowhere did broly "cap out" even in his lssj state he never "capped out" the diffrence between super saiyan and blue was shown massively in the movie and then we see this diffrence again with super saiyan gogeta vs super saiyan blue gogeta. Thats not even a an argument im not saying everything have to objectively true im saying what carthu is arguing is predicated on a lie and a false perception.
Problem with this is that this entire conversation is disingenuous dragon Ball super broly does take place in the super timeline however it also takes fax from the manga for example we know that beerus is the strongest destroyer maybe not in the anime but in the manga he fought all the other destroyers by himself putting that aside the Goku and Vegeta that fought broly at this point have already undergone the tournament of power they're already way stronger than they were broly might not have been able to force Goku into ultra instinct but the problem is is it took a significantly stronger Goku and Vegeta than from the tournament of power fusing and going super Saiyan blue to stop broly In the tournament of power they didn't even bother considering fusion maybe it wouldn't have made sense for the plot whatever the case would be we know that ultra instinct Goku for the little bit of time he had did become stronger than jiren we also know that Goku his base form generally got a bus and an enhancement after that It just doesn't make any sense no matter what line of arguments you two try to use jiren cannot be stronger than broly because here's the thing It's super easy to say that without ultra instinct if Goku and Vegeta had used pitara or they used the fusion dance during the tournament of power they probably still would have been able to beat jiren let alone a significantly stronger version of that having to go blue to fight jiren And yeah we know that once he went blue he was destroying broly but he still put up a fight for a little bit fact of the matter being there's not really any which way you can argue jiren being stronger than broly broly is just too strong a little disappointed with how like disingenuine this entire thing is and how you guys are basically just trying to bend fax to make it work but yeah there's just no way that broly would lose to jiren broly is simply just too strong
Listen this is a banger collab and i love it, but some of the info seems all over the place here. Right off the bat, with Jiren being stronger than beerus because of what whis said... but not mentioning that he, directly after this, said it was only in an arm wrestle... ONCE. And that's just the anime, not including the manga. While later in the manga it still shows that both goku and vegeta are still weaker than beerus. obviously dbs scaling is all out of whack and all over the place, but with this video coming out so recently, it's strange that none of that is really considered when explaining how strong Jiren is.
18:00 This statement about Jiren being barely stronger than Goku/Vegeta while also being overwhelmingly strong is not a statement that claims that Jiren is weak now. *The Jiren is barely stronger than Goku/Vegeta is misunderstood.* Rather, this is one of the many examples of how Dragon Ball makes physical power and Ki Control resulting in power distinctive. Here are some other notable examples: *1. In the DBS anime (ep16), Whis explains to Vegeta the importance of energy control over raw power:* *[SUB]* "I see you've substantially increased your power through training. But no matter how long you try, you'll never beat Beerus Sama that way. Learn to control your energy. If you can do that... *[DUB]* "You've achieved considerable power through what I assume is intense physical training, but if you continue focusing on power alone, you'll never defeat Lord Beerus. The most crucial skill you lack is a method for controlling your energy. If you can learn that... *2. Whis explains to the Oracle fish the importance of Ki as one's power (ep18).* *[SUB]* "They need to raise the level of their ki... otherwise, they won't be able to grow much stronger" This goes along with Whis' plan as to how he wants to train the Saiyans, which he hinted at before (referring to 1.^) *3. Chouzenshuu 1 states:* "Because there are physical limits to the strength of the body itself, it is necessary to increase one's ki to overcome this barrier and become stronger." *4. Spirit Control* Spirit Control is the same as Ki, as stated in Chapter 52: "What we call Spirit, Goku called Chi" One's Ki/Spirit is demonstrated as crucial for one's true power. Vegeta in _Super Hero,_ continues this training style after recognizing how significant it was when Jiren displayed it. "You must achieve balance in body and mind" (chapter 53). "Before your training here, your body and spirit were so off-balance that you couldn't project your own power very well" (chapter 55). *5. Goku during Kami/Popo's training* "Movement is waste! You must first train your Spirit" (Mr. Popo, Chapter 164). The 'filler' episodes in the anime insanely dive into details regarding this. *6. Android Saga Piccolo* After Gero absorbs some of Piccolo's power and adds it to his own, he gets thrashed and doesn't understand. The scenes shared as follows: "This is impossible!! I was more power to begin with--and now I've added his energy to mine...!!!" (Gero) "Remember this: in battle, we can amplify what you call energy in one tremendous burst. What you stole from me just now was nothing." (Piccolo, DB Manga Chapter 345) *7. King Kai's Teachings* "Wanna be the best in the Universe? Then you gotta train not just your body, but also your spirit" (King Kai, DBS Chapter 39) *8. Dragon Ball's Super Exciting Guide* "You can only train your muscles to a certain power, it's 'Ki' that carries you beyond that and what helped Goku come closer to being the strongest warrior in the Universe." *9. Toriyama's comment on "What is the key to winning in battle?"* "In battle, the most important thing is the size of your _ki,_ and your control over it. _Ki_ as a concept of course includes such spiritual powers as energy [genki] , courage [yuki], and right-mindedness [shoki]. No matter how much you train, there are limits to physical strength, and the only way to overcome that is through _ki._ I think Goku was able to approach the mightiest of warriors in the universe through strengthening his _ki."_ *Notable? Ressurection F Manga* "It's quite evidence to me that you are a prodigy in combat, yet you always seem to be lagging one step behind Goku... You are constantly straining your senses... In that state, when it comes down to business, you won't be able to function at full efficiency" (Whis, DBZ RF Manga Chapter 2) - It should be noted that while aspects from RF have been rebooted, a semblance of consideration can remain. However, in this case, it can be argued that Whis was referring to Vegeta achieving a sense of combative ability that would eventually be the foundation for UI rather than a poke against his use of Spirit.
Whis was talking about universe 11 mortal but he was poking fun at Beerus for losing an arm wrestling match to quitela. I think people are getting this confused. Whis didn't know what universe had that strongest mortal as he stated he didn't know much about the other universes. That's why when a suppressed jiren was pushing back a blue kaioken spirit bomb whis brought up the mortal stronger than a Destroyer again because he got confirmation that it was universe 11.
everything else is cool but i def cant see belmond being stronger than beerus. in the manga the GOD exhibition, all the gods literally tried to jump beerus 😭😭 not only that. he was the one of the last GOD left in the exhibition when it was over
Broly had no legitimate martial arts training. Its safe to say once he masters himself he'll easily surpass everything but the angels and above. Jiren is literally a trained martial artist and renowned space cop. Broly is a homeless 48 year old caveman.
jiren has always been training. He's literally a martial artist. it's his whole motivation to seek revenge on the person who destroyed his past and make sure something like that never happens to him again, so he trains every day and meditates whenever he can, Did you like not even watch the show? 😂.
Broly slams if you include statements. Every official Dragon Ball source calls Broly the strongest enemy that Goku and Vegeta yet. A lot of people say Jiren isn't an enemy but he is called that by Dragon Ball Super and Toriyama. Also Goku has said himself that he thought he was super strong until he met Broly. Meaning that Goku even potentially surpassed Jiren but not Broly. Goku was even shocked in the manga that Gogeta somehow beat Broly. A lot of people also downplay how Goku said that Broly might be stronger than Beerus. But this isn't fair since Goku doesn't know how strong Beerus is. Also Gogeta is not a naturally occuring saiyan so that doesn't make any sense as well. So who actually wins?: Broly and it's not close. Lastly people forget that Broly can adapt super quick in battle.
Literally I’m not trynna be toxic so I’m not gonna say the name but after (you know who) got kicked out of the picture six has been collabing with everyone 😂 broken ronin, no operator, thunder god and now carthu .
The thing that u are missing 1. when Goku said probably he didn’t say he wasn’t sure he meant most likely since he fought Beerus more times that he can count(literally) and Mui goku if he didn’t lose the form would have won and that goku was still not stronger the Beerus but stronger then jiren in terms of total power level He said that when he knew he could still could not beat Beerus so that might just mean the Belmond statement by whis might not be 100% since he is not known to be the one person who knows every power level just by reading it because any race power raises by days like saiyans by training A guy said he would not play around and be cocky and would go straight for the kill meanwhile jiren could have used one hit to finish goku and vegeta before they could raise they’re power levels by serious ppl might not show it but they sometimes to are cocky So I think broly wins Extreme-insane diff Broly would probably be very very damaged but I see broly winning
Other huge problem when you guys are talking about the two in their " " potential is you seem to forget that jiren's potential was basically just doing what broly did when he got stronger and broke his limits he basically just hulked out a lot of his skill went down to just clashing blows with Goku and the best you could credit him for is that he figured out that UI blocks things automatically so he could force Goku to take some hits and even when Goku took all of those hits he still wasn't going down whereas broly is going to constantly be getting stronger every time he gets hurt and jiren won't actually be able to put him down before broly puts him down first again this entire debate is just unsincere and doesn't make sense like this is not structured well enough for this to even be a video and I understand that this might be your guys's first collab and long like this is not structured well enough for this to even be a video and I understand that this might be your guys's first collab and cars dojo isn't as popular so he does his own thing but this is just not really cool You guys are just muddying the waters with this video and it doesn't solve any real questions
Gogeta is a fusion, it's 2 people he's not a separate entity. Broly at that point was the strongest saiyan, singular. From a narrative standpoint broly is stronger than jiren I don't Think the UI goku at the time of the TOP wouldve defeated broly. He beat the shit out of jiren though. The sheer imagery of Broly vs Jiren and the shattering dimensions speaks volumes imo, hard to say because Gogeta is wayyyy stronger than ui goku but also way stronger than broly so who he lost to doesn't really give us info Also vegeta glazing Jiren and not broly is because of the statement goku said. Vegeta concedes broly was way stronger than them. Vegeta not contesting the statement about broly means its most likely true especially when he corrected Goku about Jiren. He Says jiren wasn't, he just had good ki control which kinda goes against your point Broly going from saiyan saga level to beyond God's is a significantly faster power boost than jirens. It's not even comparable I'm sorry, like idk if you guys forget all of dragon ball and Z but to go from a power level akin with the saiyan saga/namek to beyond god goku/vegeta in a single fight is absolutely absurd
@@yspy_1801 Because Black Frieza doesn't exist in the anime seeing as the anime doesn't have the Miro and Granola Arcs Edit: if the DBS anime returns then obviously Beerus will be stronger, but as of right now that doesn't exist and all the information we have says Jiren beats him.
Listen up. The Dragon Ball Super Broly movie has Toriyama at a position of power,and the problem with scaling anime jiren to Broly is that Toriyama's version of Goku and Vegeta are weaker than the ones in the anime. For example Goku and Vegeta in Toriyama's original vision's highest form is blue. But in the anime Goku and Vegeta have obtained SSBK and SSBE, as well as UI Sign and MUI. Forms that were never canon to Toriyama and were made by the anime and manga variations. And there is another statement in the Super hero movie about how Jiren in the Movie universe wasn't that much stronger than goku and Vegeta who would only have blue and would be overall weaker than the anime. So if you were to ask me my understanding of the situation. This would be my conclusion. Anime Jiren > Broly Toriyama's Original Vision Jiren < Broly
And to also help back up my claim. Jiren was able to easily beat and reflect attacks from SSBK and SSBE goku and Vegeta. Goku having a 20x kaioken on his blue form, and Vegeta in SSBE being stated to be stronger than Goku in ssbk.
4:44 Not trying to come off as the "um actually" but I disagree with this. Ssj broly was not "beating up" ssj gogeta, before broly turned full power ssj (green hair form which forced gogeta to go blue) ssj broly only landed like 2-4 attacks on ssj gogeta all of which caused no visible damage and ssj gogeta was superior. I overall agree with the video and I believe that Jiren would win both in the anime and manga however, I'm surprised the scans and toriyama statements about broly in the super hero movie weren't brought up.
I think the point about broly not being the strongest because gogeta exists is pretty moot. He is the strongest saiyan because he doesn't require external circumstances to exist. He doesn't require two people to exist. So yes, gogeta is the strongest saiyan, but his existence is temporary. That was the whole point of the movie was to show that broly is far and away the strongest saiyan, but the combined power of two saiyans is the "ultimate power"
At no point does broly start “beating up” super gogeta, that form was smoking broly scene by scene he went blue to one shot his goofy ass def didn’t need it
In anime, the cooler character always wins. Broly would get smacked around at first until Jiren gets frustrated at how quickly Broly is adapting, how durable he is and how relentless he is. Eventually Broly's beastly final form would overcome Jiren and he would literally rag doll him like everyone else. The only individual that can beat Broly is Beast Gohan and Black Frieza, Jiren is old news
To put it simply, I would say that Broly is the Strongest. However, that comes with a caveat. Power only means so much in the concept of a fight. Having a set amount of power only gets you so far. In the world of martial arts, skill is what puts you on top. I think it would be a good fight to see the 2 go head to head but I will say Jiren would still likely win if he decided to KO Broly out the gate. If Broly was able to adapt, I am not sure Jiren would win if he was able to rampage. It can lean either way on the scale however. Just depends on how they write it I guess. I wouldn't write Jiren off though, but I'd like to see where it went. Also, I wouldn’t lean too much on the manga because Toriyama and Toyotaro have different ideas on how they had the stories play out.
So six what made you change your mind, is it validity of the scans in Broly's favor cuz if I remember well you've already gone over this and the arguments you presented kinda seemed to in Broly's favor Anyways non of these matter for future scaling of DB since this problem only exist for the anime, the manga never actually said anything about Beerus being surpassed and all that. it was just anime trying to hype things as usual, I think this line of scaling should be dropped. What we should know is the Goku, Vegeta, Broly, Jiren and Piccolo are all in G.o.D's realm of power, with Beast Gohan, Black Frieza and Quitella getting into Beerus level of power, the super elite God
They are though well ANIME only In the Manga, it is so jumbled up that it is actually ridiculous 💀 Belmod is stronger than beerus but he is weaker than jiren. Jiren is then weaker than Moro, granola, gas, black frieza, goku, and vegeta but beerus is somehow still stronger Like where in GODS NAME DID BEERUS GO ABOVE GOD OF DESTRUCTION LEVEL 💀 If they wanted to make him that much stronger, they shouldn't have said jiren is stronger than belmod
@@Zeno1781 exactly, it seems that beerus is stronger, just because he is, for no reason, so using beerus as a reference point for strength is so useless.
@@sixfromtokyo Oh god I hate Silver. Make sure he gets bodied easily. Anything regarding Archie Sonic in the future or is it mainly the Video Game continuity you’re focusing on?
Nah, it’s clear Broly is the stronger of the 2 and Broly stomps. Jiren ain’t close. Also regarding Jiren being stronger than the GoD, there was context left out which questions if the said Belmod is truly stronger than Beerus. When Whis *teases* Beerus about it he quickly refutes it saying it was only an arm wrestling match. Info was left out in order to push Jiren here. Latest info states Jiren wasn’t even that much stronger than Goku and vegeta. His efficiency using his Ki makes him much more explosive.
I watched a death battle with broly in it. They cited a source saying that broly was, in fact, the strongest mortal in the entire show at that point. Only the gods and angels were stronger than him.
It's very weird that the manga implies and blatantly states that goku is stronger than beerus and then somehow he's weaker than beerus after the moro arc, i mean like, wtf
Never really implied hes above, even in the anime the statament "vermouth>beerus" is said was just a arm wrestling match, wich is trash feat, and the manga showed how superior beerus was to vermouth and basically everyone besides quitella
The manga never stated Goku was superior to beerus nor did it show him beating beerus in a fight, the opposite is true not is Goku still weaker then beerus he's far weaker if black freeza is still below him.
@cheeseburgerfreddy6350 Didn't whis in an earlier part of the manga tell a vegeta fresh off getting his ass beat by beerus(wh8ch is just a typical Tuesday for them ) that if he had ui, he would handle man's? Not only does goku get stronger, but he then gets ui and mui after that I personally find it bs how beerus is just magically stronger each time they get high power ups. At this point it's better to just keep it as "beerus trains off screen" and that's why he's not weaker than the saiyans. 👍🏾
@@chriss.249 Whis said if he masters UI which Vegeta didn't and now he's using UE and Goku has yet to truly master UI, I mean you can use that to cope but there's nothing backing it up. Point is beerus is objectively still stronger than the duo and until Toriyama decides otherwise.
@@chriss.249 he didn't, in not a single part whis said something of goku getting close to beerus, but yhea it's a fun way to see it, beerus training, cos if jiren>vermouth and goku and vegeta>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>jiren, and beerus>>>>>>>>>those 2 then it's even more evidence of how broken beerus is and broly too
Facts this need to be debunked Beerus fought every god of destruction by himself Jiren being stronger than Beerus is a fallacy Beerus didn't agree that belmod was stronger and whis said it was a arm wrestling match not a fight and Beerus said it was millions of years all of those points were ignored
@@CupidSmurf657💀 This is directly disproven in the Manga where belmod literally almost killed every God of destruction using his God of destruction technique Beerus God of destruction technique was tanked and canceled out by mule. Rumsshi using his own destruction technique almost knocked out every God of destruction except belmod We LITERALLY see belmod without any battle damage even though he was right in the middle of the ffa fight
@@BlackwaifusThis is directly disproven in the Manga where belmod literally almost killed every God of destruction using his God of destruction technique Beerus God of destruction technique was tanked and canceled out by mule. Rumsshi using his own destruction technique almost knocked out every God of destruction except belmod We LITERALLY see belmod without any battle damage even though he was right in the middle of the ffa fight
I still don’t know how people can go around saying broly is stronger than jiren. Like I’ve rewatch the TOP and goku at max power was nothing to jiren. Whilst I feel like goku at max power to broly can hold his own for a bit and then maybe get in trouble from broly growing power. Like jiren wasn’t really going for lethal attacks. Whilst broly was instinctively going for the kill. People with common sense know jiren stomps him
The author confirmed that broly is stronger. Use your common sense. A fusion gogeta is as strong as a ssg gogeta, and gogeta needed blue to beat a broly that used lssj for the first time.😅
This vid is just downscaling broly and upscaling jiren over and over i hate when a RUclipsr pulls someone to collab with who shares the same opinion as them cause then it’s just one two people downscaling one of the fighters and upscaling the other it’s so boring
Jiren has more raw power than Belmod, in a fight Belmod would win as seen in his fight with the other G.O.D he has lest physical power than most of them but he makes up for it with his cunnning and tactical nature and his unique techniques. Furthermore, it is implied in the DBS manga that Beerus is the strongest G.O.D, yes he was not bodying all of the G.O.D but he was able to keep up with them for a period of time. Moreover, like I said before Beerus's power has been retconned several times first he was 30% stronger than Goku in ssjg in the battle of gods arc but now he is now stronger than a Black Frieza who bodied both TUI Goku and UE vegeta. My conclusion is that I don't believe that the G.O.D are a good benchmark for strength I still believe that Jiren his stronger but using the G.O.D as a benchmark for strength isn't valid.
Thanks for setting the record straight both of your inputs really helps put this to be blunt tiresome debate to bed cause as you both pointed out,which I hope the people that love to debate this that broly is stronger than Jiren is simply not true at all hopefully now this will die down
See, my main argument is that Iceberg fight LSSJ Broly and ToP Jiren are at least relative in power, which actually makes this a landslide victory for Broly. Wanna know why? 1 word: Endurance. Jiren is overwhelmingly strong for most of the ToP, but if you compare how well he did once he was fighting someone even remotely relative to him (UI Goku from episode 129 and MUI Goku throughout episode 130), the guy didn't even last 2 minutes fighting an opponent who for most of the fight was weaker or relative to him. Broly on the other hand took multiple attacks which should've killed him from Vegeta and still had enough energy to keep fighting for more than an hour despite his opponents all being equal or stronger than him up until he turned Super Saiyan, and even then he still was fighting a fusion after not stopping for a whole goddamn hour and proceeded to get curbstomped, yet after all that Broly was still standing. Even if Jiren were 10x stronger than Broly, that significant of an endurance gap just seals it. Broly beats Jiren, end of story.
I think it's a bit disingenuous to say Jiren's endurance is waaaay worse than Broly's, if you want to say it is better that's fair but there isn't too large or a gap Broly fights a total of around 5 times in the movie several of those fights being entirely one sided whereas Jiren has fought Goku around that many times alone not counting any other characters like hit, Frieza, 17, Vegeta, etc. You also have to remember that in terms of 129 Jiren likely isn't taking Goku super seriously, we even see he almost takes Goku out of the fight with one blast Then right after once Goku gets MUI Jiren unlocks his own transformation which would rapidly drain his ki and stamina as we know God level forms are much more taxing on the body than something like super Saiyan is And even against MUI in pure brute power Jiren can overpower Goku and even almost takes him out of the fight outright but Goku's overwhelming speed lets him whittle Jiren down and even then it was only by seconds and Jiren still had enough stamina to fight golden Frieza, Android 17 and base Goku all at the same time Again if you want to say Broly has more stamina just because of how long he pummeled Frieza then that's completely fair, but I do think the gap isn't as wide as you make it out to be
@@definitelynotamantis4346 Dude, none of the fights Jiren has before Goku awakens UI in episode 128 matter at all. Before that point Goku and the others were little more than knats that Jiren was casually smacking down. The power gap was so massive that it would've been as taxing to Jiren's stamina as it is for me to fight like, five flies. He only starts actually having to try in episode 129 (it's stated by the narrator at the end of episode 128 that there's only 2 minutes left, and after Frieza knocks Goku back in the ring the narrator says there's 30 seconds left), and by episode 131 he was totally gassed out. As for Broly, it doesn't matter that Broly was taking it easy beating on Frieza for that hour, it matters that SSJG Vegeta intended to kill Broly and the attack landed, yet Broly kept fighting. Up until he turns Super Saiyan he ONLY has constant equal or uphill fights. He got shredded so bad by Gogeta's onslaught he changed body shape as well yet he still kept attacking and would not go down. The impressive part of the hour for Broly is that he took a fatal attack yet was still able to fight for an hour. So in one scenario Jiren fights someone who he was beating for most of the fight yet only lasts 1m 30s. Broly was constantly fighting opponents stronger than him, beaten to near-death and was still standing for well over an hour and ready to keep fighting at full power. It's NOT an understatement to say Broly has massively more endurance than Jiren. Like, let's say Broly and Jiren are relative in strength and fight each-other starting at full power. Jiren has more skill and ths would have the advantage initially, but once the fight starts dragging on he'd get worn down while Broly would keep rampaging as savagely as at the start and start to maul him.
4:52, Oh no, he wasn't winning. This is a frame-by-frame rewatch to actually see it. He couldn't even touch base Gogeta, then Gogeta used SSJ as a flex and ran into attacks. He only got hit three times, but he was *spanking* Broly. That's also when we see Broly start to crash into that glass ceiling. SSB was just sadistically torturing the poor guy. I just rewatched it last night, and I can confirm that we remember this being a much closer contest than it was, likely due to how fast the scenes were playing out. Think of it like Hit vs Jiren - except Gogeta only got hit three times his entire portion of the fight. Just like Jiren, Gogeta was never at risk of losing in any form that was used. 4:55, This is an interesting point because SSJ is a 50x multiplier from base. Still, Goku and Vegeta in SSB were able to escape, meaning that he outclassed them combined but not by a lot. This reveals just how deep the well of power is for SSB. True to what they were saying during the Goku Black Saga, there's a shit-ton more power in that form than they usually get to display due to its inherent flaws [the rapidly leaking ki]. But when he was punishing Frieza, he continued to get more powerful. So, when they got back, he was at a completely different level than he was before they shook the spot. What's so cool about this is the math, and how it compounded. It compounded because Broly was literally getting zenkai boosts as they all were fighting. He was already quite powerful at the start, but Goku and Vegeta were just more powerful at that time. The rapid zenkai boosts caught him up quickly. We're talking about very large numbers for his ki count, so he's getting *A LOT* of destructive power each time he gets boosted. Ikari gets the same boost as Great Ape without the drawbacks of a transformation. That's officially, in writing from Toriyama himself, 10x. So, we have 10 x his constantly rising base power level. So, just a random unofficial base power level as an example, 10 x 10 billion = 100 billion. Then, 10 x 10.2 billion = 102 billion. Etc. Apply that each time he takes a hit, and we can see how he grew so quickly. But now we add the SSJ transformation, which is a 50x multiplier, and the numbers get *absurd.* LSSJ form is Ikari + SSJ, which only one legend in each legend generation can do. It's the greatest genius of a genius social generation. SSJ itself drove the legend, and we have Broly, Vegeta, Goku, Gohan, Trunks, and Goten. They're all legends. Before them, there hadn't been a SSJ in a thousand years. But Broly is the most special of the generation because he can use a technique that they don't have so far; Ikari + SSJ. When you stack a 50x multiplier on top of a 10x multiplier, you get a 500x multiplier from base. Remember that 100 billion result from the example? Well, with SSJ stacked on it, it's now *5 TRILLION.* If we use more realistic estimations, these guys are starting in the sextillions. With that math based on those in-continuity multipliers, Broly shoots up to the *high SEPTILLIONS.* Ho. Ly. SMOKES! But Gogeta's equation is identical to Vegeto's equation, so says Toriyama via Whis. That's (A + B) + C (10 x variable D) = X. *WHAT?!* So, you reconfirm that, at one point, they were all equal when SSB came out. Okay, let's assign that a random fathomable number just to control the size of the numbers and get to the point. Broly first: 1000 x 10 = 10,000 10,000 x 50 = 500,000 Now we do Gogeta: 1000 + 1000 = 2000 2000 + 500 = 2500 2500 (10 x 99) = 2,475,000 Note: variable D is based on the quality of the fusion and the relationship of the warriors going into it. Goku and Vegeta have never before seen compatibility, so we're going to the top of the _tens_ of times range, which is 99. After that, we get hundreds of times. Note 2: to scale these totals up accurately, we only need to add more decimal positions. So, let's move them up to the septillions. *Spoiler;* Gogeta is going to be higher than the septillions. Broly = 500,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 Gogeta = 2,475,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 [extreme lowball; I used a lesser amount for Goku and Vegeta's to keep the numbers conceivable, not their full power, which would have each been 10x greater] Gogeta [extreme lowball] is roughly 5x as powerful as Broly at the latter's cap at the end of the movie. That's 2.475 *OCTILLION.* To put Broly in perspective, consider the fact it only takes a ki count of 150 to turn Earth's moon to dust. That's in-continuity from Dragon Ball with Master Roshi. Now let's get a rough estimation of how many of Earth's moons Broly could destroy by himself with a single blast that consumes ALL of his ki. 500,000 / 150 = 3,333.33 Now let's scale that up by adding the requisite seven decimal positions. 500,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 / 150 = 3,333,333,333,333,333,333,333,333 The Milky Way has a diameter of 105,700 lightyears and about 1 trillion celestial bodies [moons, planets, and stars]. That's this many: 1,000,000,000,000. Just how powerful is Broly at the end of this movie? Powerful enough to single-handedly destroy, in one 100% ki dump blast, 3.3 *TRILLION* Milky Way sized galaxies 😱😱😱😱😱 The entire observable universe contains up to 2 trillion galaxies. He's multiverse level in this movie. That's multiversal! In one fight, he can bust a universe and destroy half of another one! That's *ridiculous.* One guy! One guy! His destructive energy is so huge that the universe isn't large enough to contain it. The *spillover* would devastate their universe's sister universe. If he survived that, a GoD would be *required,* by divine ordinance, to delete him in order to not get poofed by Zeno. All of that couldn't even make Beerus nervous, and anime Jiren is even more powerful than one of Beerus's peers, entities who each can do even more damage than what I just outlined. The *manga* power levels are crazy, but the anime power levels are full-blown *INSANE.* This is an interesting and rather difficult debate because we all should know about Toriyama's interview stating that the anime version of the ToP went far beyond what he intended when he gave that team his outline. They had to kind of make it up as they went because the manga hadn't caught up with the anime yet. The power levels and performances we saw were later retconned in the manga for the sake of clarity and sticking to Toriyama's narrative, and the DBS: Broly movie is aligned with the toned down manga power scale. For instance, Beerus is the most powerful GoD in the manga, and Whis never says otherwise. In fact, he won the preliminary in the manga, even handling them teaming up on him. Champa was the most powerful before he fell out of shape, and the second most powerful is now officially Quitela, not Belmod. Though Goku makes a troublesome statement, it's not anime Goku appearing in the movie, it's manga Goku. And we're comparing manga / movie Broly to anime Jiren, not manga Jiren. Also, Goku never saw Beerus's full power, and the latter wasn't even concerned during the movie. *Most importantly about this observation is that Goku said that when he didn't know Ultra Ego existed, or that Beerus is 100% always using it. So, his statement compares to what he knew of Beerus before, not at the time they fought Broly.* 18:48, That's a fact. We have to take into account that Jiren was forbidden from exterminating his opponent. So, all of this unfathomable power we saw is them falling short of deleting each other. They could've gone even higher in the anime if this was a deathmatch. An honest and fair assessment would come as two answers. I would say that manga Jiren loses to canon Broly. *However,* ANIME Jiren *stomps* canon Broly. Again, the Broly movie falls in the manga continuity but doesn't exist in the anime continuity. To take down anime Jiren, it took the group efforts of Frieza, Goku, *and* Lapis. Those three were all roughly equal, and it was stated. So, it would've taken three Goku's or Vegeta's to finally beat him after what was thrown at him during the entire tournament. That's an *exhausted* Jiren who had already torn through Kale, Hit, Goku x2, Vegeta, Goku and Vegeta, Goku + Vegeta *and* Lapis, and Frieza. *Then* he survived Mastered UI Goku on top of all of that. They *still* needed teamwork to beat him in that exhausted state. That's *at least* 50% more powerful than manga Jiren, who fell to just Goku and Frieza while Lapis hid under the rubble in the ring. They threw a lot more at him in the anime than they did in the manga, so a more fair estimate is that anime Jiren is *several times* more powerful than manga Jiren. You're right. This comparison isn't even fair.
26:21 tbh I don’t even know what the writer things of something like that. The fact that it was said in the Official Manga is just wild because it’s obviously not true since in the DBSSH Movie Goku himself said that Broly “freaks out” on them once in a while wich obviously means that he doesn’t have good control of his Ki.
Jiren menacingly blinks broly away
And broly gets up again 🤦😭💯
only to be blinked again
@@b2fye22
Jiren then turns away with his arms folded and say "hmph".
@@b2fye22 then gets glared away again
@@strykerman7888 you made him sound like a tsundere xD
“But Broly, would you lose?”
“Nah, I’d improve”
INFINITE GAINS BABYYY💪🗿🔥
Is that a gojo reference
only for the movie so he can fight gogeta
“Nah, I’d adapt’
@@justarandomguy6794yes
“Would you lose to Jiren?”
“Nah, I’d shout”
The manga clearly displays that Beerus is above Belmod in my opinion. Beerus is focus by the other Gods of destruction and handles them pretty well. Quitela seemed to be the only challenge.
That's what I was going to say💯🫡
The issue I always have with Super debates is the fact that the manga is ignored! In the manga, Beerus clearly displays he’s the strongest God of Destruction because they all attacked him and Beerus didn’t have much trouble with them. He defeated Belmod which is supposedly weaker than Jiren in the anime, so that can’t be left out
The manga had clearly shows that all the hakaishins are relative to each other.. It doesn't matter who is the strongest even the weakest Hakaishin would Still be able to fight on par with the strongest Hakaishin to an extent
Only briefly beerus dodged. Nothing special
@@tarzangrant123I need you to look at that fight again nobody hurt balmot at that tournament we even see at the end that he gets up with no injuries
My biggest problem with this argument is the fact that Jiren pushed Goku to UI. Broly smacked him around so hard he never even got the chance. Broly was also fighting a version of Goku and Vegeta, who were WAY past the previous limits they had in that tournament- and even if they were relative- (which they were not, due to how saiyans work) Broly finally going all out still put them down no diff without trying. DBS-Super Hero Broly who still puts the NEW Ultra Instinct/Ego saiyans on edge to fight with, would mop Jiren if a weaker UI Goku was able to go toe to toe with Jiren, but doesn't even wanna swap hands with a semi trained Broly. Until we see Jirens new level, he caps out at ToP UI, and Broly is relative if not stronger than POST Granolah UI
(Edit for Manga Only)- You also can't have a Manga only precise argument, while choosing to ignore statements due to them not making sense personally. Jiren was beaten still in Manga alone. Take no other anime feats of Broly, and use JUST the Manga. The context of Granolahs wish was to be the strongest, surpassing the Goku that fought ToP Jiren. Goku and Vegeta caught up to that, gained new transformations, and then still stated later AFTER training for Black Freiza that Broly is on their level. Again thats just putting the jolly green giant back up to post Granolah UI/Ego. Which is just so far above ToP UI that you can't in good confidence say Broly isn't currently stronger than Jiren until we see Jirens new levels.
Not that they couldn't, they just immediately ran away for a better and quicker solution
Broly wasn't giving them any chances to transform into ssbkkx20 or ssb evolution
@@Zeno1781the reason they didn't go ssbkk and evolved blue, is because toryiama didn't make those transformation's, so they aren't cannon to his story.
@liquid1514 He made evolution and kaioken blue. Its just that the broly movie was in production before the thought of thise transformations
@@chilledmenace1053 it's not in the manga, only in the anime, so could you tell me where it said he made them?
@@chilledmenace1053 The movie literally aired after the ToP lol. Jiren & Broly is close but I'm leaning with Broly because he fought post-ToP Goku & Vegeta, and to top it off he managed to overpower SSJ Gogeta but got faded (as most would) by SSB Gogeta.
Idk man the crumbs on the cookie scans are pretty compelling
My goat carthu
@@GodEditz300 He's not a goat, He is pretty biased. But I admit he have improved over the years
@@gogetablue7905 He's def a goat now
@@GodEditz300 Haven't watch much but I guess he is in a way
My only thing is that, while yes Jiren has better control of his ki, and doesn’t need to power up. Broly in his very FIRST real fight took on a Goku and Vegeta who have trained and battled their whole lives. Even Jiren has trained his whole life. Broly has only ever trained with his dad. In the movie frieza stated that him training Broly was practically worthless. Let’s give Broly the same training as everyone else and see who wins in a more “fair” sense for lack of a better word. It’s pretty impressive that his first real fight with anyone ever, and he’s being compared to a immortal destroyer who’s had millions of years of training🤷🏻♂️ Broly even caught up to SSJ Gogeta and made him transform into SSB. He broke his limits 3-4 times in a day with just his sheer potential alone.
The moment Broly controls his mind and awakens god ki, there’s no way goku and Vegeta should realistically have any chance of keeping up. That includes gohan.
@@gammafrost agreed
Facts 💯😂 Broly is the strongest because you have a add his transformation+ his legendary power.. so ain't no way they can be stronger than Broly
15:30 but gogeta isn’t a naturally occurring being. I’m pretty positive when they say he’s the strongest sayian they’re speaking in terms of naturally occurring sayains, not a fusion of two
yeah, that was a weird forced arguement. It's like saying during the cell saga, the piccolo is the strongest version of piccolo, but then someone says actually Perfect Cell is the strongest version of Piccolo as he has Piccolo cells
Agreed. Check game continuities (which are some of the highest-grossing sources for the IP, so they must have reliability), the fusions are not "Saiyans".
Yeah how the heck are you supposed to say that gogeta is a current Saiyan. He's a fusion. It's like anybody can fuse.
Facts
OK I'm glad I wasn't the only one who found that such a weird argument. I was like "how is that such a hard statement to wrap your head around?" I get that as a fusion of two saiyans, Gogeta is technically a saiyan, but... it's pretty easy to figure out what that statement was likely referring to.
Ok so if jiren>all god of destruction and he couldnt beat UI goku but UI goku in granola arc gets oneshoted by black frieza and beerus is supposedly stronger then black freiza then does that mean jiren in TOP could beat current frieza and beerus? Its getting confusing. No way jiren is stronger then characters after TOP. Those god of destruction statements hold no weight anymore after TOP.
Facts
Your mixing two different continuitys
anime scaling is different from manga scaling genius
@God_Enjoyer well they used both the manga and anime which are supposed to be canon to the main story and in both jiren is implied to be stronger then God's of destruction. The anime will eventually adapt the manga anyway and its safe to say the overall scaling is still the same.
@@God_Enjoyerregardless i think main villains should narratively be the same in strength especially because they share the main points. On top of that the broly arc was summed up in a page which makes me assume that it shares anime canon
I love how some people just assumed that Jiren just stopped training. Like, everyone. understand that Jiren has another goal now. So, think about that for a moment. Jiren is still getting stronger but now he's more open about getting stronger with others now. He got that strong by himself, now imagine how strong he's currently getting while training with others including his GOD and Angel.
To be fair, there's literally no way to figure out how strong a Jiren that we haven't seen in literally over half a decade real time would be, really hope the next movie and/or DBS Season 2 show off current Jiren
Bro this is dragon ball, You know damn well he's gonna be irrelevant by his next appearance. Gonna get his ET cheeks clapped effortlessly by the new antagonist to make them look cooler the same way they hoed Hit.
well until we see him and his improved power we will just use what we know
it’s dragon ball so they can just make him as strong as he needs to be but i doubt he will take the type of roll he had before as an unreachable power
Not only that, Jiren is shown to have adaptive skills on the level of Broly
the manga pretty clearly shows beerus is stronger than Belmod.
How. Please say how
@@wanted2657the gods fought against each other in a contest.
He crapped all the other gods then fake get knocked out.
Did not even get heal after the fight
@@wanted2657Beerus went Omen UI and crapped on all the other gods of destruction except that mouse guy who he went pretty much toe to toe with. Didn't even need healing afterwards.
@@ThatOneStopSigndid the Gods loose? He dodged them .nothing more.
I think Beerus would react if there was someone close to him in power, and all he did was sneeze.
When he reacted to Jiren's power, he couldn't even fathom it was coming from one guy.
And then there's the thing of Broly supposedly beating Frieza a whole hour and he was still alive. Jiren swat him like a fly in 5 seconds while holding back.
Good points
I mean you’re right but I feel like the Frieza thing is more having to do with Frieza’s insane durability and Jiren’s better ability to control his power. Jiren’s average strikes might be weaker than Broly’s but Jiren’s strongest strike is another level.
fair, but that was an ssj broly. lssj broly was competing with ssb gogeta who is relative to mui goku
@@leviathanxz24He was not competing with Blue Gogeta. The moment Gogeta went blue it was one sided.
@@PrinceSolitudeby then broly fought longer than the entire ToP, and only hit his ceiling once.
One important section of guides that I think were missed were the V-jump and Saikyo jump scans talking about Broly in DBS Superhero, which double down on the DBS Broly statements and then some.
V jump is a false authority I mean have you seen the Cooler Movie power levels in which Cooler who beat on Goku in Kaioken times 20 took one look at post zenkai Goku and stated that he could see why Goku could beat Frieza, yet FF Cooler is scaled to 470 million whereas Full power FF Frieza is 120 million and base Goku would need to be around that tier in the Cooler movie; let alone times 20.
@@elishaj2977 Those were for a game, not for the actual movie
@@lonkstakesHmm...regardless V Jump is not Toriyama so like....it really doesn't need to be taken as legit.
@@elishaj2977I mean with that logic, we shouldn’t take Jirens statements outside of source material as legit either
Unless you can 100% claify what they mean when they call him the "strongest". I dont really see how those help here as even Gohan is called the "strongest" in that movie.
I'm pretty sure Toyotaro said that Broly was stronger than MUI Goku after the Moro Arc. I think the direct quote from him is "Goku may have seemed perfect by the end of the Moro arc, but he still has plenty of room to grow: why, there's Whis, Beerus, Broly, and the Grand Priest!" This statement also confirms that end of Moro Goku isn't as strong as Beerus.
Broly got removed from that sentence, iirc
@ningenslayer6306 It was a live interview, so I don't think it was. It's on the official DB website too. Then again, it could just be the fault of bad translators.
@@MexicanSpeedsterno you’re correct, they also state he was the strongest sayian prior to the granola arc
Actually it is incorrect. Toyotaro never stated that, but it was the interviewer. Broly was never stated to be stronger than Goku in Moro saga, it's quite the opposite
@@MexicanSpeedster Jiren fanboys don't like statements like those. They still think their meathead is stronger than Beerus!
i feel like broly being stated to be the strongest after jiren and being that its a fight after the top just off virtue of how the series works broly has to be stronger
Beers was the very 1st enemy they fought I'm super. Using that logic golden frieze > beerus
@@wanted2657 that was maybe that dumbest thing you could have said considering goku was never stronger than beerus in battle of gods and ddnt even scale to him at all so what are you even talking about
@@vont8364 goku was never stronger than beerus is obvious dumbass. I'm just using your logic that current antagonist>past antagonist but ig you just skip that entirely
@@vont8364 he was trying to debunk you but failed horrible. Like yeah Beerus is still the strongest enemy lol. But he’s the very CLEARLY OBVIOUS exception that goes without saying..
Beerus stated that Belmod beat him in arm wrestling, and not actual combat. So there is still uncertainty.
Quitela not Belmod. The anime is technically unconfirmed on who that is.
@@MasterlyRex8789 Your right. Whis is vague, but it is heavily implied to be Jiren.
In the manga they fight and belmod loses badly, infact all the gods jumped beerus and lost
@@pandaboss5085You need to reread the manga, Beerus just managed to dodge the first few attacks using a degree of UI, barely strong enough escape Mosco's grip strength, and managed to trick everyone into thinking he was sent flying, even then, his sneak attack energy ball did no damage to all of the GoDs. Afterwards it devolved into an all out brawl between all the GoDs and Beerus was barely standing as one of the last contestants before the Grand Priest stopped the fighting. Beerus did not at all "destroy" the GoDs, at best, he has showings of being able to partially tap into UI at will and is very intelligent, capable of tricking the others mid fight.
shout out carthu man, the collab I didn't know I needed
Did you guys skip the novels where Frieza directly states Broly is the strongest warrior he ever faced?
Frieza never faced Limit Breaker Jiren (no shirt)
I guess he never faced jiren full power
Was that stated in CFYOW?
And immediately after saying that a stronger warrior came and no diffed broly. Such an amazing statement....
That’s not canon to the animw
I think is a BIG MISTAKE to talk about Gogeta as an individual.
Agreed.
Always loved Carthu’s commentary
He sounds like a typical white boy nerd 🙏😹😹
This entire debate to me is annoying because I feel Ike there’s this lack of acknowledgement that Broly has no real training prior to fighting Goku and Vegeta. Even if you wanna say that Broly capped at his Wrath State, that’s literally a result of his lack of proper training. If Broly had any moment of training with Whis, I know Jiren has no chance against him
It's like with newbie gains. Broly's gonna get immensely stronger the moment he trains, and if it's with Whis...
Y’all mfers acting like Jiren is sitting on his ass not training, you can’t just say “if broly trains” and not say the same for Jiren.
@@lifeisntcanon but what is Jiren training for? In the manga he beats Goku! I know the anime shows him losing but it was by a combined effort of Goku, Frieza and Android 17. We mention Brody needs training because we saw the endless potential he possesses, especially when he’s adapting mid fight. If Whis specifically trains him, the way he did Goku and Vegeta, Broly would beat Jiren
@@lifeisntcanon we're not disregarding the idea that Jiren is probably training. It's just that Broly has never properly trained before, so his growth would be crazy
The point of Brolys power is it being out of Control. Once he controls it ,he wudnt be as powerful.
For the anime when it comes to Jiren vs Broly the main points in favour Jiren is the stronger than GoDs statements but I don't see how that matters when Broly could just scale above him. Its undeniable that the Goku and Vegeta Broly faces are much stronger than they were in the ToP not to mention he goes up against their fusion. You'd have to argue that the boost in UI is larger than the boost goku gets as gogeta. Which is unlikely as the series hypes up fusion as this rare event that can only happen in emergency situations, which they wouldn't if Goku could just reach a state on his own that gives him a bigger increase.
There's also the trend that in almost every successive arc the main antagonist is stronger than the last one, as an example Cell was way stronger than Frieza.
I'll bite
1. Using the story progression as an argument for why Brody is stronger is dumb as using that exact same logic the 1st enemy they fight in.super is beerus so logically golden frieze who they fought afterwards >> beerus right? (Wrong)
2. It's not only the gods statements but feats that jiren puts out in general vs broly
> base jiren legitimately one shot k.o'ing golden frieza vs ssj Brody ragdolling but failing to k.o frieza for over an hour (no broly was not holding back, and no frieza isn't a saiyan where he gets buffs post fight so he's still the same as his top self)
>jiren k.o'ing mui goku not once but thrice unlike broly who got neg diffed the moment gogeta went blue (this is just to clarify broly isn't close to gogeta)
>If we're goin off hype of forms as a measurement to scale I'll just remind you that whis himself advised goku and vegeta against fusing as they'd lose both fighters (meaning even whis wasn't confident they take down jiren with fusion) talk less of the fact that u.i is a technique that even the gods don't know
@@wanted2657 1. I said ALMOST every main antagonist, not to mention you brought up one exception out of the many other examples my point still stands.
2.The Frieza that Jiren one shot was weaker than the one in the Broly movie, there's also the fact that Broly was only in ssj he gets much stronger while fighting Gogeta so him not koing doesn't mean much. I'm not saying Frieza is a saiyan but the fact is he gets stronger as the ToP progresses, pre-ToP he ties against a much weaker SSB Goku that would lose to GoD Top who Frieza took multiple hits from. There's the end of ToP which portrays Goku and Frieza as relative which can only work if he got stronger from what he was pre ToP. To say Broly got negdiffed is a stretch he still took several hits from SSB Gogeta and survived, which you have to be somewhat relative to do otherwise he'd be one shot.
Whis never advised against Goku and Vegeta fusing, he said that in response to the possibility of android 17 and 18 fusing. And even then he just brought that up as something to keep in mind as what could happen not for sure. The gods know of UI they just haven't fully achieved it, Beerus even has it to some extent.
My point with fusion has less to do with hype and moreso meta story reasoning. Fusion is one of the most popular parts of the franchise and a big part of that is because of how strong it is, the people who run the franchise know this it's why it doesn't come often and whenever they do appear they bully their opponents. There's no way they let fusion get powercliffed by UI.
Anyone who seriously thinks Jiren would be enough to contend with Gogeta Blue even giving the benefit of the doubt to consider it being Gogeta comprised of post-Black Arc Goku and Vegeta, would have some mighty copium to swallow.
The Story Progression theory might have a few kinks in the logic but it's reasonable enough to assume since it's been well established that some villains just happen to be stronger than previous ones. (i.e. Raditz to Vegeta to Ginyu to Frieza to Cell to Buu, i think you could see the point)
Golden Frieza surviving Super Saiyan Broly for an hour shouldn't be counted against Broly, that should be a personal feat for Frieza. Jiren mollywhopped both Blue Goku and Golden Frieza, which Super Broly did the exact same for, completely sweeping any of their attacks. And if we have to account for placement of timeline, this Golden Frieza is post-ToP as well, which does still matter since irregardless of Frieza's lack of access to Zenkai boosting, he still managed to maintain his Golden form until AFTER Gogeta prevents him from shooting down Cheelai and Lemo's ship (meaning his stamina and endurance obviously improved afterward).
Whis advised against fusion due to a few simple facts:
- Vegeta and Goku were sporadically in different points of power to even consider using the dance to use (the only point in this being viable is if they did it during their kaioken blue evolution powerup) RIGHT in front of enemy lines, let alone use potaras since they didn't have any on hand.
- Vegeta didn't know the Dance, and when he did, it took them about an hour just to get it right (gambling on time they don't have).
Whis didn't advise against Fusion because the Fusion wouldn't beat Jiren, it's because it wasn't a viable option to use given their circumstances.
I personally think Jiren and Broly's win factors have to be decided on context. Starting base? Obviously Jiren. Starting Full Power? Would have to go to Broly considering he not only adapted horrifically fast to Base and Super Gogeta, but had enough endurance to prevent him from bleeding once from most of Gogeta Blue's attacks. Jiren has been shown to fatigue following the fight from MUI. Broly hadn't fatigued until Gogeta went Blue to put him in check. (literally just got back from partying so this is just me throwing my hat in the ring don't mind me)
@@wanted2657 Frieza IS TRAINING. You jiren fanboys are so quick to point out that in your dreams the meathead is training all the time but you absolutely refuse to believe that other characters keep getting stronger... Frieza wanted to rebuild his empire, he knew about the levels Goku and Vegeta are reaching, he learned the value of training and he wants to surpass them (which he DID in the manga), so no, there's no possibility of Frieza being exactly the same as during ToP. You're only saying that to make your garbage meathead look better.
@@johnman8398 1. This is also an exception as its clear broly ain't shit (I also forgot about this golden frieza is stronger than hit [in manga], [anime] hit > goku black). Your point doesn't stand
2. Why did frieza suddenly become stronger when it's never stated or implied? Pre-top do you honestly believe frieza was goin all out before the tournament? Saying he got stronger cuz he took more hits from god toppo isnt a good argument (lmao bcuz I'm pretty sure even with how durable he is, he only ate 4 hits from Topps before goin down). I also don't think you realise this but a near death goku being relative to a pretty rested up frieza isn't a good thing for frieza (in fact you can downscale frieza even more with that but I wont). Finally frieza showcases you don't need to be relative to eat some hits from others (case in point broly/god toppo). Broly is nowhere close to ssb gogeta
2.????? Mf why would beerus talk about a fusion of 17 and 18 to fight and beat JIREN when 18 had already been long ringed out?? Beerus specifically talked bout goku and vegeta doin the same after Kefla did so as he saw that as a way for them to beat jiren which whis refused. The very fact that whis of all pple is advising against something like this should speak for itself on how much stronger jiren was in comparison to anyone there
3. Meta story reasons.....?? You're joking right? Let's just skip over
>buu vs gotenks
>ssb fullpower goku vs fused zamasu (pre-fap arm)
>goku vs kefla
I love vegito more than any other character on the series but he did the exact opposite of bullying zamasu. Skip the fact that u.i is a technique of the gods that not even BEERUS himself has learnt (nevermind u.i now also being a very popular part of the franchise since its addition).
Love your guy’s synergy throughout this video! Need more collabs like this please 😂
During Moro arc they said Goku was stronger than Broly at that point. And the reason why they left UI Goku out of the Broly movie is because the fight would end in 10sec but instead they decided to make Gogeta canon instead💯
No they didn’t, they stated that broly was the strongest sayian prior to the granola arc
@@RitzTVYT where’s the source? Cause this came from Toyotaro himself the writer of Dbs.
@@Jechielwesterweele250 it came from Toyotaro too, when making the super hero movie that’s one of brolys statements
UI isn't canon to the movies. Fun fact, there are three continuities. The Anime, Manga and the Movies. In the Anime Goku needed MUI to surpass Beerus, in Manga he hasn't, because, in those continuities, SSB is nothing to Beerus. But in RF, the movie, Whis himself states that Goku and Vegeta in SSB together could/can defeat Beerus. Yet, in the Broly movie, both Goku and Vegeta fight Broly together, and get mowed down with ease, and Broly goes on to destroy Freeza for an hour. In Toriyama's original draft for the TOP, Goku didn't get MUI or UIS. Jiren was defeated when Goku, Vegeta, Freeza and 17 jumped him.
Broly fought three stronger versions of the four guys that Jumped Jiren and won with ease. And Broly got stronger, far stronger. Strong enough to force Gogeta to skip SSJ 2, 3 and God straight to SSB, who would absolutely steamroll Jiren. Heck, a guide even states that Broly still could've won if he could control his power, because contrary to what Kale would lead you to believe, if you can't control your power, then that makes you weaker.
@@RitzTVYT that was a marketing strategie but it wasn’t facts, Broly will remain the legendary SSJ but he won’t be able to surpass Goku this point in the manga
The way i've seen people try to twist whis's statements regarding Jiren being stronger than the gods of destruction is insane💀
The way im seeing people take power scaling in dbs seriously is insane
and Goku has only fought Beerus once, when he wasnt even using 1% of his power.. so him saying Broly might be stronger than Beerus is absolutely silly considering there's no way in hell he knows how strong Beerus actually is, and Jiren def aint stronger than Beerus, and yall gotta be stupid to think that belmod > beerus
@@velryxia WHIS himself said it
@@yellowflash9648 in the anime or manga? read the manga, all the GoDs jumped beerus and he was relatively unscathed
Oh god it’s the kid buu vs buuhan debate all over again
buuhan slams btw
Except this one isn’t as logically skewed as that clusterfrick.
@@subzero8520kid buu is stronger 💀
Way more guides, statements, and author and writers intention that say kid buu is stronger
@@Zeno1781🤦♀️ bro ssj3 goku was hanging with kid buu he even felt he could take kid buu. They needed to fuse into vegito to take on buuhan.
@@Zeno1781r u stupid 😂
Btw, the kanji used to describe broly is "多分" (Tabun), which can also mean maybe/might/possibly instead of probably. It's really vague what the kanji can be without any further context. It's just meant to express uncertainty. So we can't even assume goku is saying "probably"
I didn't know that.
@sixfromtokyo well now you do, Mr goat
@@thedarkknight1346The glaze 😭
@@WrongFrFranyone that glazes jiren deserves my glaze
Coming in clutch I see 🌚
Broly: Are you the strongest because I won't be able to adapt enough? Or are you I won't be able to adapt enough because you're the strongest?
Jiren: Nah, I'd blink.
I love the fact that it was mentioned how jiren went from getting beat up by MUI Goku to surpassing him in just a couple minutes. Because most of the time Broly fans argue that Broly will just “outgrow” Jiren in power by time but in reality jiren grew more powerful than Broly in a shorter period of time since Broly alone beat up Frieza for more than an hour.
He didn’t though. Jiren was already relative to UI to start with. He was inferior to it prior to breaking his limit, but he still wasn’t far behind. Nowhere near to the extent that Broly was in the beginning. Plus Jiren had to train his entire life to get to where he was at throughout the Tournament of Power. Broly went from being weaker than Base Vegeta to stronger than SSJ Gogeta. That’s a far bigger jump in power than anything we seen from Jiren.
In manga broly is clearly stronger than jiren
There are broly fans that says ssj broly will one shot full power Jiren 😂
He probably doesn’t one shot but he beats him up
@@BamBamBinBinssj broly isnt doing shit to full power jiren
@@kingbevan1993 yeah he is frieza said no one can beat broly the way he is now
@@kingbevan1993 and I can also argue that SSB goku in the movie> MUI goku in the TOP
@@BamBamBinBin yeah so the ssb goku that shows up in what a month/little after top is stronger than mui goku according to you. Yeah no point in debating you lol. Thats just pure goofball thinking
Broly is the most naturally gifted saiyan weve seen.
Carthu Dojo himself amazing collab and amazing video!
if jiren doesnt smoke broly in the first minute of the fight then that shit is over for him
Fax
jiren himself would evolve as well
@@bigxo6379 not as much as Broly
@@darknessemblemflame3036 doesn’t have to be to the same extent, jiren would take the opportunity to destroy him if he had the edge
@bigxo6379 lol no he wouldn't. Did you not see tournament of power?
I think it depends. If jiren wants to make it quick, he’ll kill broly instantly before he gets a chance to get mad, but if he waits and tries to fight him at full power with his own full power, at one point he’s gonna get overpowered
Jiren smacked the Legendary outta Kale with one hit, So i think your right.
A sparring match, broly wins. but a fight to death, jiren wins.
Not even close stop coping and ignoring official material and statements from creators. Was stated Broly was strongest. Get over it.
@@DevonUnfloppableLarratt4207
Outside of a 2006 interview i can't find a source on that claim.
@@Cohagenmods lol there's tons of statements and material for the movie from 2018 stating "He's the strongest enemy" or "the strongest of all" it's really not that hard to find. A lot of it is in Japanese of course so if you can't read it or find a translation I can't help that.
This matchup is just Screaming Baby vs Hydrogen Bomb
I mean yeah the manga discussion is a bit more complex than the anime one mainly due to the lack of Broly content. Like mentioned, Belmond is different, Beerus keeps getting stronger, etc. It is kinda wild current Goku and Vegeta still struggle agaisnt Beerus. They just keep scaling Beerus up. I dunno what's your opinion on current Manga Goku's power but I certainly believe it is way higher than what he showed in the Tournament agaisnt Jiren. Would he beat Jiren solo now? Or is Jiren still just that powerful? I struggle to accept Manga Beerus is weaker than Jiren.
If only we saw Broly going all out agaisnt current Goku or something then we'd have a better foundation to build on.
Don’t worry it’s bound to happen in the manga at some point this year
Ok so this is a really old argument the main i want to hear from six is if jiren can just blink broly away that means hes 2× stronger than gogeta blue at the very least are you guys implying jiren is beyond max fusion blue level?
Also carthu makes such a redudant statement saying its not fair to write off jirens potential when in 48 minutes he surpassed himself.
See the problem with that is he was casually already unquantifiably stronfer than ui omen 3 so saying ah yes he got stronger by an unquantifiable margin against mui goku isnt an an argument especially because broly went from a power level of 100k in the movie to straight up going past vegetas super saiyan form to then beyond gokus super saiyan form then his god form and his blue form then both of thier blue forms even attempting to say jiren has the same ballpark of potential broly has is disengenous as for him capping out no it was never stated he capped out in ikari he was still getting stronger against goku but because goku was blue he was just far far too strong for broly as goku was beating on him.
Then for a quick power up freiza made him go super saiyan nowhere did broly "cap out" even in his lssj state he never "capped out" the diffrence between super saiyan and blue was shown massively in the movie and then we see this diffrence again with super saiyan gogeta vs super saiyan blue gogeta.
Thats not even a an argument im not saying everything have to objectively true im saying what carthu is arguing is predicated on a lie and a false perception.
He may not be beyond it but it isn’t a stretch to think he’s around that level.
The one match up I wanted to see after the tournament of power
Carthusdojo Collab with six, I didn’t expect that.🐱
Problem with this is that this entire conversation is disingenuous dragon Ball super broly does take place in the super timeline however it also takes fax from the manga for example we know that beerus is the strongest destroyer maybe not in the anime but in the manga he fought all the other destroyers by himself putting that aside the Goku and Vegeta that fought broly at this point have already undergone the tournament of power they're already way stronger than they were broly might not have been able to force Goku into ultra instinct but the problem is is it took a significantly stronger Goku and Vegeta than from the tournament of power fusing and going super Saiyan blue to stop broly In the tournament of power they didn't even bother considering fusion maybe it wouldn't have made sense for the plot whatever the case would be we know that ultra instinct Goku for the little bit of time he had did become stronger than jiren we also know that Goku his base form generally got a bus and an enhancement after that It just doesn't make any sense no matter what line of arguments you two try to use jiren cannot be stronger than broly because here's the thing It's super easy to say that without ultra instinct if Goku and Vegeta had used pitara or they used the fusion dance during the tournament of power they probably still would have been able to beat jiren let alone a significantly stronger version of that having to go blue to fight jiren And yeah we know that once he went blue he was destroying broly but he still put up a fight for a little bit fact of the matter being there's not really any which way you can argue jiren being stronger than broly broly is just too strong a little disappointed with how like disingenuine this entire thing is and how you guys are basically just trying to bend fax to make it work but yeah there's just no way that broly would lose to jiren broly is simply just too strong
This feels like a super weird crossover. I love it.
Listen this is a banger collab and i love it, but some of the info seems all over the place here. Right off the bat, with Jiren being stronger than beerus because of what whis said... but not mentioning that he, directly after this, said it was only in an arm wrestle... ONCE. And that's just the anime, not including the manga. While later in the manga it still shows that both goku and vegeta are still weaker than beerus. obviously dbs scaling is all out of whack and all over the place, but with this video coming out so recently, it's strange that none of that is really considered when explaining how strong Jiren is.
Six you should totally do a video on who’s stronger. Archie Sonic or Hyper Sonic.
18:00
This statement about Jiren being barely stronger than Goku/Vegeta while also being overwhelmingly strong is not a statement that claims that Jiren is weak now.
*The Jiren is barely stronger than Goku/Vegeta is misunderstood.*
Rather, this is one of the many examples of how Dragon Ball makes physical power and Ki Control resulting in power distinctive.
Here are some other notable examples:
*1. In the DBS anime (ep16), Whis explains to Vegeta the importance of energy control over raw power:*
*[SUB]* "I see you've substantially increased your power through training. But no matter how long you try, you'll never beat Beerus Sama that way. Learn to control your energy. If you can do that...
*[DUB]* "You've achieved considerable power through what I assume is intense physical training, but if you continue focusing on power alone, you'll never defeat Lord Beerus. The most crucial skill you lack is a method for controlling your energy. If you can learn that...
*2. Whis explains to the Oracle fish the importance of Ki as one's power (ep18).*
*[SUB]* "They need to raise the level of their ki... otherwise, they won't be able to grow much stronger"
This goes along with Whis' plan as to how he wants to train the Saiyans, which he hinted at before (referring to 1.^)
*3. Chouzenshuu 1 states:*
"Because there are physical limits to the strength of the body itself, it is necessary to increase one's ki to overcome this barrier and become stronger."
*4. Spirit Control*
Spirit Control is the same as Ki, as stated in Chapter 52:
"What we call Spirit, Goku called Chi"
One's Ki/Spirit is demonstrated as crucial for one's true power. Vegeta in _Super Hero,_ continues this training style after recognizing how significant it was when Jiren displayed it.
"You must achieve balance in body and mind" (chapter 53).
"Before your training here, your body and spirit were so off-balance that you couldn't project your own power very well" (chapter 55).
*5. Goku during Kami/Popo's training*
"Movement is waste! You must first train your Spirit" (Mr. Popo, Chapter 164).
The 'filler' episodes in the anime insanely dive into details regarding this.
*6. Android Saga Piccolo*
After Gero absorbs some of Piccolo's power and adds it to his own, he gets thrashed and doesn't understand. The scenes shared as follows:
"This is impossible!! I was more power to begin with--and now I've added his energy to mine...!!!" (Gero)
"Remember this: in battle, we can amplify what you call energy in one tremendous burst. What you stole from me just now was nothing." (Piccolo, DB Manga Chapter 345)
*7. King Kai's Teachings*
"Wanna be the best in the Universe? Then you gotta train not just your body, but also your spirit" (King Kai, DBS Chapter 39)
*8. Dragon Ball's Super Exciting Guide*
"You can only train your muscles to a certain power, it's 'Ki' that carries you beyond that and what helped Goku come closer to being the strongest warrior in the Universe."
*9. Toriyama's comment on "What is the key to winning in battle?"*
"In battle, the most important thing is the size of your _ki,_ and your control over it. _Ki_ as a concept of course includes such spiritual powers as energy [genki] , courage [yuki], and right-mindedness [shoki]. No matter how much you train, there are limits to physical strength, and the only way to overcome that is through _ki._ I think Goku was able to approach the mightiest of warriors in the universe through strengthening his _ki."_
*Notable? Ressurection F Manga*
"It's quite evidence to me that you are a prodigy in combat, yet you always seem to be lagging one step behind Goku... You are constantly straining your senses... In that state, when it comes down to business, you won't be able to function at full efficiency" (Whis, DBZ RF Manga Chapter 2)
- It should be noted that while aspects from RF have been rebooted, a semblance of consideration can remain. However, in this case, it can be argued that Whis was referring to Vegeta achieving a sense of combative ability that would eventually be the foundation for UI rather than a poke against his use of Spirit.
This collab is great
You should do a collab with him now on his channel comment on a and what if
Whis was talking about universe 11 mortal but he was poking fun at Beerus for losing an arm wrestling match to quitela. I think people are getting this confused. Whis didn't know what universe had that strongest mortal as he stated he didn't know much about the other universes. That's why when a suppressed jiren was pushing back a blue kaioken spirit bomb whis brought up the mortal stronger than a Destroyer again because he got confirmation that it was universe 11.
Yo carthu collab? That’s actually hype af
everything else is cool but i def cant see belmond being stronger than beerus. in the manga the GOD exhibition, all the gods literally tried to jump beerus 😭😭 not only that. he was the one of the last GOD left in the exhibition when it was over
Broly had no legitimate martial arts training. Its safe to say once he masters himself he'll easily surpass everything but the angels and above. Jiren is literally a trained martial artist and renowned space cop. Broly is a homeless 48 year old caveman.
If you’re gonna have broly training make sure you say the same for Jiren also.
jiren has always been training. He's literally a martial artist. it's his whole motivation to seek revenge on the person who destroyed his past and make sure something like that never happens to him again, so he trains every day and meditates whenever he can, Did you like not even watch the show? 😂.
Broly slams if you include statements. Every official Dragon Ball source calls Broly the strongest enemy that Goku and Vegeta yet. A lot of people say Jiren isn't an enemy but he is called that by Dragon Ball Super and Toriyama. Also Goku has said himself that he thought he was super strong until he met Broly. Meaning that Goku even potentially surpassed Jiren but not Broly. Goku was even shocked in the manga that Gogeta somehow beat Broly. A lot of people also downplay how Goku said that Broly might be stronger than Beerus. But this isn't fair since Goku doesn't know how strong Beerus is. Also Gogeta is not a naturally occuring saiyan so that doesn't make any sense as well.
So who actually wins?: Broly and it's not close. Lastly people forget that Broly can adapt super quick in battle.
Carthu and Six ???? The collab I didn’t know I needed 😭😭🔥🔥🔥
Literally I’m not trynna be toxic so I’m not gonna say the name but after (you know who) got kicked out of the picture six has been collabing with everyone 😂 broken ronin, no operator, thunder god and now carthu .
The thing that u are missing
1. when Goku said probably he didn’t say he wasn’t sure he meant most likely since he fought Beerus more times that he can count(literally) and Mui goku if he didn’t lose the form would have won and that goku was still not stronger the Beerus but stronger then jiren in terms of total power level
He said that when he knew he could still could not beat Beerus so that might just mean the Belmond statement by whis might not be 100% since he is not known to be the one person who knows every power level just by reading it because any race power raises by days like saiyans by training
A guy said he would not play around and be cocky and would go straight for the kill meanwhile jiren could have used one hit to finish goku and vegeta before they could raise they’re power levels by serious ppl might not show it but they sometimes to are cocky
So I think broly wins
Extreme-insane diff
Broly would probably be very very damaged but I see broly winning
Other huge problem when you guys are talking about the two in their " " potential is you seem to forget that jiren's potential was basically just doing what broly did when he got stronger and broke his limits he basically just hulked out a lot of his skill went down to just clashing blows with Goku and the best you could credit him for is that he figured out that UI blocks things automatically so he could force Goku to take some hits and even when Goku took all of those hits he still wasn't going down whereas broly is going to constantly be getting stronger every time he gets hurt and jiren won't actually be able to put him down before broly puts him down first again this entire debate is just unsincere and doesn't make sense like this is not structured well enough for this to even be a video and I understand that this might be your guys's first collab and long like this is not structured well enough for this to even be a video and I understand that this might be your guys's first collab and cars dojo isn't as popular so he does his own thing but this is just not really cool You guys are just muddying the waters with this video and it doesn't solve any real questions
also Six and Carthu... this is like the best buddy cop movie weve never seen
Gogeta is a fusion, it's 2 people he's not a separate entity. Broly at that point was the strongest saiyan, singular. From a narrative standpoint broly is stronger than jiren I don't Think the UI goku at the time of the TOP wouldve defeated broly. He beat the shit out of jiren though. The sheer imagery of Broly vs Jiren and the shattering dimensions speaks volumes imo, hard to say because Gogeta is wayyyy stronger than ui goku but also way stronger than broly so who he lost to doesn't really give us info
Also vegeta glazing Jiren and not broly is because of the statement goku said. Vegeta concedes broly was way stronger than them. Vegeta not contesting the statement about broly means its most likely true especially when he corrected Goku about Jiren. He Says jiren wasn't, he just had good ki control which kinda goes against your point
Broly going from saiyan saga level to beyond God's is a significantly faster power boost than jirens. It's not even comparable I'm sorry, like idk if you guys forget all of dragon ball and Z but to go from a power level akin with the saiyan saga/namek to beyond god goku/vegeta in a single fight is absolutely absurd
I fw this idea heavy. Love the jjk ost in the back 💪🏾
Isn't Beerus confirmed to be stronger then black frieza?
Because if this is true, the whole Jiren > Beerus argument gets fucked.
No it wasnt.
Beerus > Black frieza only applies to the manga and doesn't apply to the discussion of Beerus vs Jiren
@@collinleivas9605 How would it not apply?
@@yspy_1801 Because Black Frieza doesn't exist in the anime seeing as the anime doesn't have the Miro and Granola Arcs
Edit: if the DBS anime returns then obviously Beerus will be stronger, but as of right now that doesn't exist and all the information we have says Jiren beats him.
Listen up.
The Dragon Ball Super Broly movie has Toriyama at a position of power,and the problem with scaling anime jiren to Broly is that Toriyama's version of Goku and Vegeta are weaker than the ones in the anime. For example Goku and Vegeta in Toriyama's original vision's highest form is blue. But in the anime Goku and Vegeta have obtained SSBK and SSBE, as well as UI Sign and MUI. Forms that were never canon to Toriyama and were made by the anime and manga variations. And there is another statement in the Super hero movie about how Jiren in the Movie universe wasn't that much stronger than goku and Vegeta who would only have blue and would be overall weaker than the anime. So if you were to ask me my understanding of the situation. This would be my conclusion.
Anime Jiren > Broly
Toriyama's Original Vision Jiren < Broly
And to also help back up my claim.
Jiren was able to easily beat and reflect attacks from SSBK and SSBE goku and Vegeta. Goku having a 20x kaioken on his blue form, and Vegeta in SSBE being stated to be stronger than Goku in ssbk.
4:44 Not trying to come off as the "um actually" but I disagree with this. Ssj broly was not "beating up" ssj gogeta, before broly turned full power ssj (green hair form which forced gogeta to go blue) ssj broly only landed like 2-4 attacks on ssj gogeta all of which caused no visible damage and ssj gogeta was superior. I overall agree with the video and I believe that Jiren would win both in the anime and manga however, I'm surprised the scans and toriyama statements about broly in the super hero movie weren't brought up.
I may have mispoke in the video or you misheard me I'm not sure but regardless what I meant was the FPSSJ Broly not just SSJ Broly beating up Gogeta.
@sixfromtokyo gotcha
I think the point about broly not being the strongest because gogeta exists is pretty moot. He is the strongest saiyan because he doesn't require external circumstances to exist. He doesn't require two people to exist. So yes, gogeta is the strongest saiyan, but his existence is temporary. That was the whole point of the movie was to show that broly is far and away the strongest saiyan, but the combined power of two saiyans is the "ultimate power"
W vid. I do have a Broly agenda to push lol
At no point does broly start “beating up” super gogeta, that form was smoking broly scene by scene he went blue to one shot his goofy ass def didn’t need it
And yet he didn’t even come close to “one shotting” him, and he clearly didn’t do anything to prove that he didn’t need it 😂
@@handzofstone1152 shouts out to the dragon balls lol. comments 8months old king, find something better to do with your time.
In anime, the cooler character always wins. Broly would get smacked around at first until Jiren gets frustrated at how quickly Broly is adapting, how durable he is and how relentless he is. Eventually Broly's beastly final form would overcome Jiren and he would literally rag doll him like everyone else. The only individual that can beat Broly is Beast Gohan and Black Frieza, Jiren is old news
To put it simply, I would say that Broly is the Strongest. However, that comes with a caveat. Power only means so much in the concept of a fight. Having a set amount of power only gets you so far. In the world of martial arts, skill is what puts you on top. I think it would be a good fight to see the 2 go head to head but I will say Jiren would still likely win if he decided to KO Broly out the gate. If Broly was able to adapt, I am not sure Jiren would win if he was able to rampage. It can lean either way on the scale however. Just depends on how they write it I guess. I wouldn't write Jiren off though, but I'd like to see where it went.
Also, I wouldn’t lean too much on the manga because Toriyama and Toyotaro have different ideas on how they had the stories play out.
Awesome seeing you collaborate with Carthu. I hope you two do it again later on. Happy early New Years.
The movies are there own continuity as well
So six what made you change your mind, is it validity of the scans in Broly's favor cuz if I remember well you've already gone over this and the arguments you presented kinda seemed to in Broly's favor
Anyways non of these matter for future scaling of DB since this problem only exist for the anime, the manga never actually said anything about Beerus being surpassed and all that. it was just anime trying to hype things as usual, I think this line of scaling should be dropped.
What we should know is the Goku, Vegeta, Broly, Jiren and Piccolo are all in G.o.D's realm of power, with Beast Gohan, Black Frieza and Quitella getting into Beerus level of power, the super elite God
how many times has beerus power goalpost been moved/retconned? that kinda defeats this whole argument
I thought it was started several times that berus is the strongest god of destruction
Hope you get 200k my friend
By this videos logic, Frieza, Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, and Picolo are all stronger than Beerus and we know this isn't the case.
Fr
What I think people forget is the only Beerus we have seen is the BOG one which we all know he was not trying .
They are though well ANIME only
In the Manga, it is so jumbled up that it is actually ridiculous 💀
Belmod is stronger than beerus but he is weaker than jiren. Jiren is then weaker than Moro, granola, gas, black frieza, goku, and vegeta but beerus is somehow still stronger
Like where in GODS NAME DID BEERUS GO ABOVE GOD OF DESTRUCTION LEVEL 💀
If they wanted to make him that much stronger, they shouldn't have said jiren is stronger than belmod
This is a massive sticky situation because the manga loves increasing beerus strength
@@Zeno1781 exactly, it seems that beerus is stronger, just because he is, for no reason, so using beerus as a reference point for strength is so useless.
Belmod is not stronger than Beerus. Broly is without a doubt stronger than TOP Jiren.
Any new Sonic videos in the future?
Silver might be next...
@@sixfromtokyo Oh god I hate Silver. Make sure he gets bodied easily. Anything regarding Archie Sonic in the future or is it mainly the Video Game continuity you’re focusing on?
@@sixfromtokyo My fav
@@supersonicstyleatsonicspeedDamn, what did he do wrong?
@@DJN_X Be cringe
wildfire of chaos vs absolute control
Broly Slams easily 😭🙏
Broly can’t even control his power
@@niles3423 nga replied 5 months later 😂🫵🏽
A video with Carthu now six needs Powers scaling now he is truly powerful
How can you argue Broly is stronger than Jiren when Jiren literally glares a spirit bomb away?
Broly was boxing gogeta
Okay and ? Lmao the top alone has unholy power ups they just get stronger and stronger than broly just over powers
@@BamBamBinBingogeta was toying wdym??
@@BamBamBinBin your acting like Gogeta was serious
@@BamBamBinBin jiren can do the same thing only difference is jiren would actually land hits unlike broly who connected zero hits on gogeta.
I really really love your thumbnails Man!! ❤👏
Nah, it’s clear Broly is the stronger of the 2 and Broly stomps. Jiren ain’t close.
Also regarding Jiren being stronger than the GoD, there was context left out which questions if the said Belmod is truly stronger than Beerus.
When Whis *teases* Beerus about it he quickly refutes it saying it was only an arm wrestling match.
Info was left out in order to push Jiren here.
Latest info states Jiren wasn’t even that much stronger than Goku and vegeta. His efficiency using his Ki makes him much more explosive.
Jiren just says "It's Over" and broly just vine booms him away lol
And then they retconned Beerus's power and made him stronger than black Frieza.
In the manga no one surpassed beerus tho
@@staarfinger7322 Yeah, but in the anime they did, a lot
I watched a death battle with broly in it. They cited a source saying that broly was, in fact, the strongest mortal in the entire show at that point. Only the gods and angels were stronger than him.
It's very weird that the manga implies and blatantly states that goku is stronger than beerus and then somehow he's weaker than beerus after the moro arc, i mean like, wtf
Never really implied hes above, even in the anime the statament "vermouth>beerus" is said was just a arm wrestling match, wich is trash feat, and the manga showed how superior beerus was to vermouth and basically everyone besides quitella
The manga never stated Goku was superior to beerus nor did it show him beating beerus in a fight, the opposite is true not is Goku still weaker then beerus he's far weaker if black freeza is still below him.
@cheeseburgerfreddy6350
Didn't whis in an earlier part of the manga tell a vegeta fresh off getting his ass beat by beerus(wh8ch is just a typical Tuesday for them ) that if he had ui, he would handle man's?
Not only does goku get stronger, but he then gets ui and mui after that
I personally find it bs how beerus is just magically stronger each time they get high power ups. At this point it's better to just keep it as "beerus trains off screen" and that's why he's not weaker than the saiyans. 👍🏾
@@chriss.249 Whis said if he masters UI which Vegeta didn't and now he's using UE and Goku has yet to truly master UI, I mean you can use that to cope but there's nothing backing it up. Point is beerus is objectively still stronger than the duo and until Toriyama decides otherwise.
@@chriss.249 he didn't, in not a single part whis said something of goku getting close to beerus, but yhea it's a fun way to see it, beerus training, cos if jiren>vermouth and goku and vegeta>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>jiren, and beerus>>>>>>>>>those 2 then it's even more evidence of how broken beerus is and broly too
A collab with carthu? GOATGOATGOAT
Beerus is the strongest god of distraction
Facts this need to be debunked Beerus fought every god of destruction by himself Jiren being stronger than Beerus is a fallacy Beerus didn't agree that belmod was stronger and whis said it was a arm wrestling match not a fight and Beerus said it was millions of years all of those points were ignored
He might be the strongest god of distraction but not the god of distruction.
And with this simple truth, this whole video is debunked.
@@CupidSmurf657💀
This is directly disproven in the Manga where belmod literally almost killed every God of destruction using his God of destruction technique
Beerus God of destruction technique was tanked and canceled out by mule. Rumsshi using his own destruction technique almost knocked out every God of destruction except belmod
We LITERALLY see belmod without any battle damage even though he was right in the middle of the ffa fight
@@BlackwaifusThis is directly disproven in the Manga where belmod literally almost killed every God of destruction using his God of destruction technique
Beerus God of destruction technique was tanked and canceled out by mule. Rumsshi using his own destruction technique almost knocked out every God of destruction except belmod
We LITERALLY see belmod without any battle damage even though he was right in the middle of the ffa fight
I still don’t know how people can go around saying broly is stronger than jiren. Like I’ve rewatch the TOP and goku at max power was nothing to jiren. Whilst I feel like goku at max power to broly can hold his own for a bit and then maybe get in trouble from broly growing power.
Like jiren wasn’t really going for lethal attacks. Whilst broly was instinctively going for the kill.
People with common sense know jiren stomps him
The author confirmed that broly is stronger. Use your common sense. A fusion gogeta is as strong as a ssg gogeta, and gogeta needed blue to beat a broly that used lssj for the first time.😅
@@NassRLSSexactly. for the FIRST time. now he’s actually training with people relative to beerus
He beat up gogita ? No way in hell. Gogita shit on him the whole time
When both were ssj, they were even trading blows. Only until he went ssjb
@@RitzTVYT well I won't argue that. But beat up is a strong word. They traded blows,I'm fine with that description
This vid is just downscaling broly and upscaling jiren over and over i hate when a RUclipsr pulls someone to collab with who shares the same opinion as them cause then it’s just one two people downscaling one of the fighters and upscaling the other it’s so boring
Jiren has more raw power than Belmod, in a fight Belmod would win as seen in his fight with the other G.O.D he has lest physical power than most of them but he makes up for it with his cunnning and tactical nature and his unique techniques.
Furthermore, it is implied in the DBS manga that Beerus is the strongest G.O.D, yes he was not bodying all of the G.O.D but he was able to keep up with them for a period of time. Moreover, like I said before Beerus's power has been retconned several times first he was 30% stronger than Goku in ssjg in the battle of gods arc but now he is now stronger than a Black Frieza who bodied both TUI Goku and UE vegeta.
My conclusion is that I don't believe that the G.O.D are a good benchmark for strength I still believe that Jiren his stronger but using the G.O.D as a benchmark for strength isn't valid.
Thanks for setting the record straight both of your inputs really helps put this to be blunt tiresome debate to bed cause as you both pointed out,which I hope the people that love to debate this that broly is stronger than Jiren is simply not true at all hopefully now this will die down
Jiren is not stronger than beerus these guys are smoking something
My thoughts exactly
Stronger than ANIME beerus, manga beerus still soloes all
Analyzing something so convoluted that even the creators don’t know…is nuts
See, my main argument is that Iceberg fight LSSJ Broly and ToP Jiren are at least relative in power, which actually makes this a landslide victory for Broly. Wanna know why? 1 word: Endurance.
Jiren is overwhelmingly strong for most of the ToP, but if you compare how well he did once he was fighting someone even remotely relative to him (UI Goku from episode 129 and MUI Goku throughout episode 130), the guy didn't even last 2 minutes fighting an opponent who for most of the fight was weaker or relative to him. Broly on the other hand took multiple attacks which should've killed him from Vegeta and still had enough energy to keep fighting for more than an hour despite his opponents all being equal or stronger than him up until he turned Super Saiyan, and even then he still was fighting a fusion after not stopping for a whole goddamn hour and proceeded to get curbstomped, yet after all that Broly was still standing. Even if Jiren were 10x stronger than Broly, that significant of an endurance gap just seals it. Broly beats Jiren, end of story.
I think it's a bit disingenuous to say Jiren's endurance is waaaay worse than Broly's, if you want to say it is better that's fair but there isn't too large or a gap
Broly fights a total of around 5 times in the movie several of those fights being entirely one sided whereas Jiren has fought Goku around that many times alone not counting any other characters like hit, Frieza, 17, Vegeta, etc.
You also have to remember that in terms of 129 Jiren likely isn't taking Goku super seriously, we even see he almost takes Goku out of the fight with one blast
Then right after once Goku gets MUI Jiren unlocks his own transformation which would rapidly drain his ki and stamina as we know God level forms are much more taxing on the body than something like super Saiyan is
And even against MUI in pure brute power Jiren can overpower Goku and even almost takes him out of the fight outright but Goku's overwhelming speed lets him whittle Jiren down and even then it was only by seconds and Jiren still had enough stamina to fight golden Frieza, Android 17 and base Goku all at the same time
Again if you want to say Broly has more stamina just because of how long he pummeled Frieza then that's completely fair, but I do think the gap isn't as wide as you make it out to be
@@definitelynotamantis4346
Dude, none of the fights Jiren has before Goku awakens UI in episode 128 matter at all. Before that point Goku and the others were little more than knats that Jiren was casually smacking down. The power gap was so massive that it would've been as taxing to Jiren's stamina as it is for me to fight like, five flies. He only starts actually having to try in episode 129 (it's stated by the narrator at the end of episode 128 that there's only 2 minutes left, and after Frieza knocks Goku back in the ring the narrator says there's 30 seconds left), and by episode 131 he was totally gassed out.
As for Broly, it doesn't matter that Broly was taking it easy beating on Frieza for that hour, it matters that SSJG Vegeta intended to kill Broly and the attack landed, yet Broly kept fighting. Up until he turns Super Saiyan he ONLY has constant equal or uphill fights. He got shredded so bad by Gogeta's onslaught he changed body shape as well yet he still kept attacking and would not go down. The impressive part of the hour for Broly is that he took a fatal attack yet was still able to fight for an hour.
So in one scenario Jiren fights someone who he was beating for most of the fight yet only lasts 1m 30s. Broly was constantly fighting opponents stronger than him, beaten to near-death and was still standing for well over an hour and ready to keep fighting at full power. It's NOT an understatement to say Broly has massively more endurance than Jiren.
Like, let's say Broly and Jiren are relative in strength and fight each-other starting at full power. Jiren has more skill and ths would have the advantage initially, but once the fight starts dragging on he'd get worn down while Broly would keep rampaging as savagely as at the start and start to maul him.
4:52, Oh no, he wasn't winning. This is a frame-by-frame rewatch to actually see it. He couldn't even touch base Gogeta, then Gogeta used SSJ as a flex and ran into attacks. He only got hit three times, but he was *spanking* Broly. That's also when we see Broly start to crash into that glass ceiling. SSB was just sadistically torturing the poor guy. I just rewatched it last night, and I can confirm that we remember this being a much closer contest than it was, likely due to how fast the scenes were playing out. Think of it like Hit vs Jiren - except Gogeta only got hit three times his entire portion of the fight. Just like Jiren, Gogeta was never at risk of losing in any form that was used.
4:55, This is an interesting point because SSJ is a 50x multiplier from base. Still, Goku and Vegeta in SSB were able to escape, meaning that he outclassed them combined but not by a lot. This reveals just how deep the well of power is for SSB. True to what they were saying during the Goku Black Saga, there's a shit-ton more power in that form than they usually get to display due to its inherent flaws [the rapidly leaking ki]. But when he was punishing Frieza, he continued to get more powerful. So, when they got back, he was at a completely different level than he was before they shook the spot. What's so cool about this is the math, and how it compounded. It compounded because Broly was literally getting zenkai boosts as they all were fighting. He was already quite powerful at the start, but Goku and Vegeta were just more powerful at that time. The rapid zenkai boosts caught him up quickly. We're talking about very large numbers for his ki count, so he's getting *A LOT* of destructive power each time he gets boosted. Ikari gets the same boost as Great Ape without the drawbacks of a transformation. That's officially, in writing from Toriyama himself, 10x. So, we have 10 x his constantly rising base power level. So, just a random unofficial base power level as an example, 10 x 10 billion = 100 billion. Then, 10 x 10.2 billion = 102 billion. Etc. Apply that each time he takes a hit, and we can see how he grew so quickly. But now we add the SSJ transformation, which is a 50x multiplier, and the numbers get *absurd.* LSSJ form is Ikari + SSJ, which only one legend in each legend generation can do. It's the greatest genius of a genius social generation. SSJ itself drove the legend, and we have Broly, Vegeta, Goku, Gohan, Trunks, and Goten. They're all legends. Before them, there hadn't been a SSJ in a thousand years. But Broly is the most special of the generation because he can use a technique that they don't have so far; Ikari + SSJ. When you stack a 50x multiplier on top of a 10x multiplier, you get a 500x multiplier from base. Remember that 100 billion result from the example? Well, with SSJ stacked on it, it's now *5 TRILLION.* If we use more realistic estimations, these guys are starting in the sextillions. With that math based on those in-continuity multipliers, Broly shoots up to the *high SEPTILLIONS.* Ho. Ly. SMOKES! But Gogeta's equation is identical to Vegeto's equation, so says Toriyama via Whis. That's (A + B) + C (10 x variable D) = X. *WHAT?!*
So, you reconfirm that, at one point, they were all equal when SSB came out. Okay, let's assign that a random fathomable number just to control the size of the numbers and get to the point. Broly first:
1000 x 10 = 10,000
10,000 x 50 = 500,000
Now we do Gogeta:
1000 + 1000 = 2000
2000 + 500 = 2500
2500 (10 x 99) = 2,475,000
Note: variable D is based on the quality of the fusion and the relationship of the warriors going into it. Goku and Vegeta have never before seen compatibility, so we're going to the top of the _tens_ of times range, which is 99. After that, we get hundreds of times.
Note 2: to scale these totals up accurately, we only need to add more decimal positions. So, let's move them up to the septillions. *Spoiler;* Gogeta is going to be higher than the septillions.
Broly = 500,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
Gogeta = 2,475,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 [extreme lowball; I used a lesser amount for Goku and Vegeta's to keep the numbers conceivable, not their full power, which would have each been 10x greater]
Gogeta [extreme lowball] is roughly 5x as powerful as Broly at the latter's cap at the end of the movie. That's 2.475 *OCTILLION.* To put Broly in perspective, consider the fact it only takes a ki count of 150 to turn Earth's moon to dust. That's in-continuity from Dragon Ball with Master Roshi. Now let's get a rough estimation of how many of Earth's moons Broly could destroy by himself with a single blast that consumes ALL of his ki.
500,000 / 150 = 3,333.33
Now let's scale that up by adding the requisite seven decimal positions.
500,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 / 150 = 3,333,333,333,333,333,333,333,333
The Milky Way has a diameter of 105,700 lightyears and about 1 trillion celestial bodies [moons, planets, and stars]. That's this many: 1,000,000,000,000. Just how powerful is Broly at the end of this movie? Powerful enough to single-handedly destroy, in one 100% ki dump blast, 3.3 *TRILLION* Milky Way sized galaxies 😱😱😱😱😱 The entire observable universe contains up to 2 trillion galaxies. He's multiverse level in this movie. That's multiversal! In one fight, he can bust a universe and destroy half of another one! That's *ridiculous.* One guy! One guy! His destructive energy is so huge that the universe isn't large enough to contain it. The *spillover* would devastate their universe's sister universe. If he survived that, a GoD would be *required,* by divine ordinance, to delete him in order to not get poofed by Zeno. All of that couldn't even make Beerus nervous, and anime Jiren is even more powerful than one of Beerus's peers, entities who each can do even more damage than what I just outlined. The *manga* power levels are crazy, but the anime power levels are full-blown *INSANE.*
This is an interesting and rather difficult debate because we all should know about Toriyama's interview stating that the anime version of the ToP went far beyond what he intended when he gave that team his outline. They had to kind of make it up as they went because the manga hadn't caught up with the anime yet. The power levels and performances we saw were later retconned in the manga for the sake of clarity and sticking to Toriyama's narrative, and the DBS: Broly movie is aligned with the toned down manga power scale. For instance, Beerus is the most powerful GoD in the manga, and Whis never says otherwise. In fact, he won the preliminary in the manga, even handling them teaming up on him. Champa was the most powerful before he fell out of shape, and the second most powerful is now officially Quitela, not Belmod. Though Goku makes a troublesome statement, it's not anime Goku appearing in the movie, it's manga Goku. And we're comparing manga / movie Broly to anime Jiren, not manga Jiren. Also, Goku never saw Beerus's full power, and the latter wasn't even concerned during the movie. *Most importantly about this observation is that Goku said that when he didn't know Ultra Ego existed, or that Beerus is 100% always using it. So, his statement compares to what he knew of Beerus before, not at the time they fought Broly.*
18:48, That's a fact. We have to take into account that Jiren was forbidden from exterminating his opponent. So, all of this unfathomable power we saw is them falling short of deleting each other. They could've gone even higher in the anime if this was a deathmatch. An honest and fair assessment would come as two answers. I would say that manga Jiren loses to canon Broly. *However,* ANIME Jiren *stomps* canon Broly. Again, the Broly movie falls in the manga continuity but doesn't exist in the anime continuity. To take down anime Jiren, it took the group efforts of Frieza, Goku, *and* Lapis. Those three were all roughly equal, and it was stated. So, it would've taken three Goku's or Vegeta's to finally beat him after what was thrown at him during the entire tournament. That's an *exhausted* Jiren who had already torn through Kale, Hit, Goku x2, Vegeta, Goku and Vegeta, Goku + Vegeta *and* Lapis, and Frieza. *Then* he survived Mastered UI Goku on top of all of that. They *still* needed teamwork to beat him in that exhausted state. That's *at least* 50% more powerful than manga Jiren, who fell to just Goku and Frieza while Lapis hid under the rubble in the ring. They threw a lot more at him in the anime than they did in the manga, so a more fair estimate is that anime Jiren is *several times* more powerful than manga Jiren.
You're right. This comparison isn't even fair.
Was not broly stated to be the stronger jiren (i.e strongest ever???)
Awesome collab you too.
Thank you, Six, for being in the right side of history. Jiren is the Greatest Opponent 💪
26:21 tbh I don’t even know what the writer things of something like that. The fact that it was said in the Official Manga is just wild because it’s obviously not true since in the DBSSH Movie Goku himself said that Broly “freaks out” on them once in a while wich obviously means that he doesn’t have good control of his Ki.
Know it’s going to be a banger vid🗣️🔥