As a growing trainspotter on RUclips, i envy the ability you have to go places and see different trains. But I always enjoy your videos. You inspired me to start my channel and I’ll be forever grateful. Keep up the good work❤🙏
Nice variety of trains!! My Mother had an Uncle who worked for Canadian National Railway at the freight yard in Winnipeg. We visited Winnipeg in 1953 and I remember seeing many trains (CN and CP) and hearing stories. Thanks Tim for sharing with us.😀😀👍👌
I feel so bad for that poor, innocent suitcase that got ripped apart by the VIA Rail train flying through the station near the beginning of the video. It breaks my heart to see such nice things being destroyed. Other than that, I still enjoyed this video.
She was careless. I think she thought that that was her train that was going to stop so when she saw the train barreling at her at about 80 miles an hour, she figured it was more important to save her own life rather than the suitcase, but she managed to collect the clothing from inside the suitcase, but the suitcase came off second best.
Love the Station Beaconsfield. The original Beaconsfield is a small town 25miles west of London, UK. I lived there for 20 years, mum still does. It's on the line from Marleybone , run by Chiltern railways . Great video, the new Siemens train sets are so european looking, very smart .
Amazing video man! As a railfanner from Montreal, I can confidently say that you visited the best spots for trains in the area. My favorite has got to be dorval! There are a lot of good spots on the south shore like saint lambert! People have to stay safe around the tracks and your example at Coteau is a perfect example! Anyways, great video!
Toronto born but had family in Montreal so I was a regular visitor. I still remember when CP had service to the Laurentians-grandmother lived in Ste Agathe as well. Unfortunately service was not as frequent as the bus, so every time I went to see her in Ste Agathe, we took the milk route up Hwy 11 later 117 from Montreal.
Hey Tim, nice video. Nice of you to have going North. The CN 'Grand Trunk's main is a very busy main line, with both freight & passenger services. But passenger trains don't get the same treatment as Amtrak in the US. No priority from them, so they often get held back. Even speeds are not what used to be. In 1998, there was a VIA train, with permission to have everything cleared from its way that connected Montreal and Toronto in just 3h59. It was allowed to operate at 'LRC type ' speeds, and could Stretch its legs to 100 Mph. It had just one stop, at Dorval. Nowadays, passenger trains are only allowed to operate at 95, and with 'Conventional' speeds. Do, if a train was operated today, in the same manner as the one from 1998, ttip time would be around 4h35. But not all is bad. Those new trainsets from VIA are quite something with their sort of C&O scheme. There are srill Flying F40s, that are going to be modernized again (the first 4 have just entered the shop at Montreal), and still some P42 s, CN SD60 Triclops and other classic power, and those wow K5CAs, wich are mandatory+only ONR and VIA GMDs seem to have escape the trend. The F40s use the K1L 13RS horn). One note, and w question. That siding that ends at Chemin St-Gregoire is called Les Cèdres on the CN timetable. And how do you get to know the train numbers and approximate time of the CN freights? It would be handy to me since I'm working on a different VIA schedule (faster train will connect Toronto to Montreal in 4h44, stopping at Kingston, Cornwall and Dorval. No extra Limiteds considered)?
Just a year ago, I rode on refurbished Budd coaches Toronto-Gananoque (ganna-nock-wee)- Ottawa, and the funky renaissance coaches Ottawa-Montreal-Quebec City. Didn’t see any of the new Siemens trains.
The “Mitsubishi” is a product of Canada too. The CRJ900 was built by Bombardier right there in Montreal, it wasn’t after the last one was built that the program was sold to Mitsubishi.
39:09 The plaque on the front of the engine is placed as a retirement send off, normally done in conjunction with the rail union and the company. And they’ll also put the railroad companies the person used to work for as well on the poster.
I visited Toronto this past July and had a great time. There’s a huge variety of transit systems to railfan (TTC, UP Express, Go Transit). The Eglington Crosstown light rail will open (eventually). There are also many non-railfanning activities.
From what I understand the new Siemens Venture/Charger trainsets for the Amtrak Northeast Corridor will be exactly like those as used by VIA except that an overhead catenary power car will be added behind the locomotive. It will be one whole set with no need to change locomotives. Just switch between diesel and electric depending on the territory they are in.
Well, I had to drop a car off at my brothers house in Plattsburgh so I figured as long as I schlepped all the way up there, I might as well make it worth my while since Canada is only a short way from his house
I guess those ladies figured it was better to save themselves than the suitcase. The clothing survived much better and they grabbed them and stuffed them in their bags.
I think you are in my birth country because of me. I did mention to you that I grew up with CN Rapido and later VIA Rail as I had family in Montreal that I saw regularly-me Toronto born.
Those EXO commuters trains are no different than New Jersey Transit's since they have the exact same cab cars and locomotives. It is essentially Canada's version of New Jersey Transit!
@@3985uprr planning on getting some early fall foliage along the Potomac on Sunday. Gonna be my final time on the Capitol Limited before they do away with it in November. Once it switches from Superliners to Amfleets the rear window will be a baggage car as opposed to a coach car. Plan on filming the full ride at least from Cumberland and heading all the way down to DC on the former B&O with my suction mount.
The country desperately needs a high-speed line between Toronto and Montreal. Now they have to rely on CN to get them through in decent shape. With a 175 car freight trains it’s kind of hard to have Rapido and Turbo train speeds on those trains although some trains come close to those timings.
Theres One VIA Canada Rail Train That Runs From Penn Station NYC To Toronto Canada At 7:17 AM Daily And Its An 12-13 Hour Ride Costing $100+ USD Instead Of Going On A Plane I May Consider Riding That Train.
@@3985uprr Better Than Taking A Plane That Costs $900 It’s Like A Better Choice To Canada 🇨🇦 Because I Don’t Want To Spend Money On A Greedy Airline Ticket If I Could Have That Option Your Absolutely Right
@@dutchvanderlinde154 an early session. I’m hoping somebody cancels and I can reschedule to a later session. It also depends on the weather. I have to drive a distance to get there.
Perhaps a fun fact is that a lot of the what's called "Renaissance cars" (last generation of passenger cars) for example the ViaRail passenger traintrain 30 minutes 40 seconds, manufactured I believe in France and they were initially manufactured as mentioned as the Renaissance cars and they were initially manufactured to travel through the "chunnel Tunnel (from France to England under the English Channel. I'm not certain of any discrepancies however they opted not to use these Renaissance cars on the overnight between England and France or vice virsa.... As mentioned those cars were initially manufactured to travel between France and England overnight through the tunnel I think it was Eurostar or something like that and they were Renaissance cars so Canada ended up getting a deal on them and then Bombardier manufactured the matching locomotives.. I may be off on the particulars, however these cars were manufactured in France and sold to ViaRail.
Oh my goodness you’re actually in Kannukistan…. That’s awesome. I remember you telling me that you were a Blue Jays fan Back through this messaging platform obviously it’s not like we were like hanging out or anything, but it still nice to see you north of the 49th parallel please stay and spend as much money and time as you can up here. Don’t forget….. you guys and gals get a great deal for greenbacks in this neck of the woods… also I’d love for you to maybe come up and start exposing all these jokers at ViaRail (I know you know, but a lot of others don’t ViaRail is the equivalent of Amtrak in Canada) would you believe these guys are talking about building a high-speed line believe it or not bombardier a Canadian company built the Acela’s but we can’t have anything like that here you know they would build and send them elsewhere, but they would be built here you know it’s just bizarre….them and now Alstom has gotten involved, as they have throughout the US as well, but my point being that the federal government and ViaRail, your or the US Northeast and the high speed rail lines would be the equivalent of us having high speed rail between Toronto and Montreal and possibly destinations west of Toronto down to Windsor and Detroit but now the way that things work politically here in Canada, if the federal government is going to contribute any money towards any improvements in infrastructure, it must improve utilities and or services for particular riding or areas under MPs authority and other words, we have ministries of Parliament, which should be like your Congress or governors, we have premiers who are equivalent to your governors I don’t want to get too complicated but anyhow long and short if you can imagine in the US as you have a rail line which goes through several states …..We call a state a Province… So the facts are that in order to have a high-speed line between Toronto and Montreal now you’ve got the province of Quebec where Montreal is and you’ve got Toronto, which is in the province of Ontario so now you’ve got all these elected people and they all want a piece you know for their constituents for their voters in their areas so in order to build a high-speed line from Toronto to Montreal they could cut the trip in half actually still the Highest speed rail journey between Toronto and Montreal is still the turbo Sikorsky’s turbo back in the 60s when we got up to. I believe it was 184 miles an hour if I’m not mistaken, I could be wrong on that but it was considering the time that was when the Japanese Shinkansen Was initially operating, both be US north east and Toronto Montreal work utilizing turbo trains, which were initially as fast and then some cases faster than the Japanese Shinkansen but not for long I mean that train is currently Operating at 320 km an hour or 200 miles an hour. I mean we’re lucky if we can get a train that’ll do 120 km an hour or 75 miles an hour I mean there’s places where the current train between Toronto and Montreal and Toronto to Windsor going west may get up to 160 km an hour for 100 miles an hour, but that’s an exception just in certain little patches via rail unfortunately doesn’t own much rail. It is owned by CP rail for CPKC now or Canadian national or CN as both of those carriers used to operate all of the passenger trains in Canada excluding the occasional Amtrak train into Montreal and or Toronto….. unfortunately in order for us to get high-speed rail they had a plan OK we’re going to go from Toronto to Montreal and we’re going to build new tracks and everything else appropriate properties and someone and so forth apparently they purchased all kinds of properties and houses are just vacant houses buildings farms, etc., which would cut two hours off the trip between Toronto and Montreal, but the idiot politicians they all want a piece of the action so now what they’re talking about with the high-speed train because governors our premiers and council members and someone in Quebec all want a piece of the auction as well like further north in Quebec, so they’re talking about building a high-speed line which will reduce the travel time between Toronto and Montreal by two hours now they want to divert the high speed line coming from Toronto and going north east up to Quebec city and then dropping back down to Montreal … So our federal government, our provincial governments and council members of the government all want a piece so what they’re going to do is reduce the travel time between Toronto and Montreal, and then take the train from Toronto to Quebec city and then back down to Montreal, which will put the two hours back on The travel time it makes no sense but everybody in the government you know like a counsellor in an area in Quebec oh, don’t worry I’ll fight so you get a high-speed train in your city or in your town and or community….😊 Sorry for my long drawn out storybook …..EH???? GO LEAFS GO !!!!!!
I’m going to Toronto next month and have tickets for a leafs game. My first ever game in Toronto. Since they’re being blessed by my presence for the first time, maybe they will win the Stanley Cup this season. I of course intend to get trains and my narratives should be very interesting. I will make comparisons between our countries, but for the most part, I will say very complementary things about Canada. I’ll interject a bit of humor whenever possible.
@@3985uprr and good luck with those leafs the last time they won. Stanley Cup was a year I was born, which was back in the 60s. I’m not holding my breath anymore.
![Rogers Pass [Canadian Pacific's Mountain Sub]](/img/1.gif)
As a growing trainspotter on RUclips, i envy the ability you have to go places and see different trains. But I always enjoy your videos. You inspired me to start my channel and I’ll be forever grateful. Keep up the good work❤🙏
I’m glad I was an inspiration for you. Thanks.
Impressed you know about Canada. Yes as someone who grew up in both Toronto and Montreal, I know everything you are narrating here.
I am one of those uncommon Americans that takes a deep interest in Canada.
Oh dear, that poor suitcase! Glad you weren’t hit!!
Nice variety of trains!! My Mother had an Uncle who worked for Canadian National Railway at the freight yard in Winnipeg. We visited Winnipeg in 1953 and I remember seeing many trains (CN and CP) and hearing stories.
Thanks Tim for sharing with us.😀😀👍👌
I feel so bad for that poor, innocent suitcase that got ripped apart by the VIA Rail train flying through the station near the beginning of the video. It breaks my heart to see such nice things being destroyed.
Other than that, I still enjoyed this video.
She was careless. I think she thought that that was her train that was going to stop so when she saw the train barreling at her at about 80 miles an hour, she figured it was more important to save her own life rather than the suitcase, but she managed to collect the clothing from inside the suitcase, but the suitcase came off second best.
Love the Station Beaconsfield. The original Beaconsfield is a small town 25miles west of London, UK. I lived there for 20 years, mum still does. It's on the line from Marleybone , run by Chiltern railways . Great video, the new Siemens train sets are so european looking, very smart .
@@dawdawes I knew Beaconsfield as a Montreal suburb.
Thanks for going to Canada give us a show!!
You bet!
Those poor ladies! The new VIA trainsets are awfully sharp looking
Amazing video man! As a railfanner from Montreal, I can confidently say that you visited the best spots for trains in the area. My favorite has got to be dorval! There are a lot of good spots on the south shore like saint lambert! People have to stay safe around the tracks and your example at Coteau is a perfect example! Anyways, great video!
Toronto born but had family in Montreal so I was a regular visitor. I still remember when CP had service to the Laurentians-grandmother lived in Ste Agathe as well. Unfortunately service was not as frequent as the bus, so every time I went to see her in Ste Agathe, we took the milk route up Hwy 11 later 117 from Montreal.
6:20 What a catch!! 😯🤣 Poor suitcase. Glad everybody's okay though.
Hey Tim, nice video. Nice of you to have going North. The CN 'Grand Trunk's main is a very busy main line, with both freight & passenger services. But passenger trains don't get the same treatment as Amtrak in the US. No priority from them, so they often get held back. Even speeds are not what used to be. In 1998, there was a VIA train, with permission to have everything cleared from its way that connected Montreal and Toronto in just 3h59. It was allowed to operate at 'LRC type ' speeds, and could Stretch its legs to 100 Mph. It had just one stop, at Dorval. Nowadays, passenger trains are only allowed to operate at 95, and with 'Conventional' speeds. Do, if a train was operated today, in the same manner as the one from 1998, ttip time would be around 4h35.
But not all is bad. Those new trainsets from VIA are quite something with their sort of C&O scheme. There are srill Flying F40s, that are going to be modernized again (the first 4 have just entered the shop at Montreal), and still some P42 s, CN SD60 Triclops and other classic power, and those wow K5CAs, wich are mandatory+only ONR and VIA GMDs seem to have escape the trend. The F40s use the K1L 13RS horn).
One note, and w question. That siding that ends at Chemin St-Gregoire is called Les Cèdres on the CN timetable. And how do you get to know the train numbers and approximate time of the CN freights? It would be handy to me since I'm working on a different VIA schedule (faster train will connect Toronto to Montreal in 4h44, stopping at Kingston, Cornwall and Dorval. No extra Limiteds considered)?
As for the CN train numbers, I have a source. The origin and destination is listed in Wikipedia.
@@3985uprr thanks. I'll check it
Love the Via Rail Charger sets.
Just a year ago, I rode on refurbished Budd coaches Toronto-Gananoque (ganna-nock-wee)- Ottawa, and the funky renaissance coaches Ottawa-Montreal-Quebec City. Didn’t see any of the new Siemens trains.
They look cool. They have forward and rearward facing seats
The “Mitsubishi” is a product of Canada too. The CRJ900 was built by Bombardier right there in Montreal, it wasn’t after the last one was built that the program was sold to Mitsubishi.
39:09 The plaque on the front of the engine is placed as a retirement send off, normally done in conjunction with the rail union and the company. And they’ll also put the railroad companies the person used to work for as well on the poster.
Nice video, when you go to Toronto I recommend trying Bayview Junction, it’s near Hamilton, you get GO Transit, Via, lots of CN, and CPKC.
Change of plans. I’m not going to Toronto. I’ll get up there one of these days. It’s just a bad luck destination for me. Something always goes wrong.
I visited Toronto this past July and had a great time. There’s a huge variety of transit systems to railfan (TTC, UP Express, Go Transit). The Eglington Crosstown light rail will open (eventually). There are also many non-railfanning activities.
Going to a Leafs game
That crosstown LRT in my opinion is a joke. It is still not operating. Waste of Toronto tax payer money.
Excellent video my friends 😊awesome 😮
From what I understand the new Siemens Venture/Charger trainsets for the Amtrak Northeast Corridor will be exactly like those as used by VIA except that an overhead catenary power car will be added behind the locomotive. It will be one whole set with no need to change locomotives. Just switch between diesel and electric depending on the territory they are in.
Busy, busy man. Lol. Do your thing, sir. 👍
Well, I had to drop a car off at my brothers house in Plattsburgh so I figured as long as I schlepped all the way up there, I might as well make it worth my while since Canada is only a short way from his house
Great variety of rail traffic on this one! Hope the suitcase received a decent burial.
I guess those ladies figured it was better to save themselves than the suitcase. The clothing survived much better and they grabbed them and stuffed them in their bags.
I think you are in my birth country because of me. I did mention to you that I grew up with CN Rapido and later VIA Rail as I had family in Montreal that I saw regularly-me Toronto born.
I thought for a moment the Exo trains would have KLA5 Horn like NJ Transit.
They don’t blow their horns much, but I think they might have them
RIP Suitcase!! Good lord that carnage!!
Those EXO commuters trains are no different than New Jersey Transit's since they have the exact same cab cars and locomotives. It is essentially Canada's version of New Jersey Transit!
33:43 it’s actually fancy plastic. So it’s all just UV degradation. Similar to how headlights over time will get yellowed
Les voitures Multilevel de Montréal sont également utilisées sur le New Jersey Transit et le train de banlieue de la région du Maryland
were you successful with an adirondack rear view?
Yes, I didn’t do the whole trip but I got highlights from Plattsburgh to Albany, Rensselaer, and a complete night ride from Croton to Penn Station
@@3985uprr planning on getting some early fall foliage along the Potomac on Sunday. Gonna be my final time on the Capitol Limited before they do away with it in November. Once it switches from Superliners to Amfleets the rear window will be a baggage car as opposed to a coach car. Plan on filming the full ride at least from Cumberland and heading all the way down to DC on the former B&O with my suction mount.
Do you know the interlockings on the West Side Connection from CP12 to Penn Station?
@@3985uprr
CP 12 MP 10.8 (from NYP)
AMTK/MNR Division Post MP 10.7
Inwood MP 9.9 (Spuyten Duyvil Bridge)
CP Jervis MP 1.5
Empire MP 1.0
A MP 0.2
New York Penn Station MP 0.0
The country desperately needs a high-speed line between Toronto and Montreal. Now they have to rely on CN to get them through in decent shape. With a 175 car freight trains it’s kind of hard to have Rapido and Turbo train speeds on those trains although some trains come close to those timings.
Would love to see you come to ride my train ( EXO ) saint jerome line 😃
Do they run any other type of locomotives?
I'm surprised you didn't see exo's new crrc cars
They are on the north shore line ( saint jerome)
How long did you stay in Canada?
All day
Yeaooo that suitcase 🤣
Theres One VIA Canada Rail Train That Runs From Penn Station NYC To Toronto Canada At 7:17 AM Daily And Its An 12-13 Hour Ride Costing $100+ USD Instead Of Going On A Plane I May Consider Riding That Train.
It’s an almost 12 hour ride, but I’ve done it several times and it is a relaxing ride
@@3985uprr Better Than Taking A Plane That Costs $900 It’s Like A Better Choice To Canada 🇨🇦 Because I Don’t Want To Spend Money On A Greedy Airline Ticket If I Could Have That Option Your Absolutely Right
i don't believe it runs with VIA equipment though.
@@evangouldtransit always Amtrak
@@3985uprr Yes.
They look like the amtrak chargers
Great video tim you going to metro north open houee
If I don’t have any other issues that day
@@3985uprr What session are you going mabye ill see you
@@dutchvanderlinde154 an early session. I’m hoping somebody cancels and I can reschedule to a later session. It also depends on the weather. I have to drive a distance to get there.
6:25 ooooo…. 😅
great video Tim!
RIP lady’s suitcase
????-2024
Took the train between Montreal and Toronto, and it was the most uncomfortable train rides I’ve ever been on lmao
Perhaps a fun fact is that a lot of the what's called "Renaissance cars" (last generation of passenger cars) for example the ViaRail passenger traintrain 30 minutes 40 seconds, manufactured I believe in France and they were initially manufactured as mentioned as the Renaissance cars and they were initially manufactured to travel through the "chunnel Tunnel (from France to England under the English Channel. I'm not certain of any discrepancies however they opted not to use these Renaissance cars on the overnight between England and France or vice virsa.... As mentioned those cars were initially manufactured to travel between France and England overnight through the tunnel I think it was Eurostar or something like that and they were Renaissance cars so Canada ended up getting a deal on them and then Bombardier manufactured the matching locomotives.. I may be off on the particulars, however these cars were manufactured in France and sold to ViaRail.
Oh my goodness you’re actually in Kannukistan…. That’s awesome. I remember you telling me that you were a Blue Jays fan Back through this messaging platform obviously it’s not like we were like hanging out or anything, but it still nice to see you north of the 49th parallel please stay and spend as much money and time as you can up here. Don’t forget….. you guys and gals get a great deal for greenbacks in this neck of the woods… also I’d love for you to maybe come up and start exposing all these jokers at ViaRail (I know you know, but a lot of others don’t ViaRail is the equivalent of Amtrak in Canada) would you believe these guys are talking about building a high-speed line believe it or not bombardier a Canadian company built the Acela’s but we can’t have anything like that here you know they would build and send them elsewhere, but they would be built here you know it’s just bizarre….them and now Alstom has gotten involved, as they have throughout the US as well, but my point being that the federal government and ViaRail, your or the US Northeast and the high speed rail lines would be the equivalent of us having high speed rail between Toronto and Montreal and possibly destinations west of Toronto down to Windsor and Detroit but now the way that things work politically here in Canada, if the federal government is going to contribute any money towards any improvements in infrastructure, it must improve utilities and or services for particular riding or areas under MPs authority and other words, we have ministries of Parliament, which should be like your Congress or governors, we have premiers who are equivalent to your governors I don’t want to get too complicated but anyhow long and short if you can imagine in the US as you have a rail line which goes through several states …..We call a state a Province…
So the facts are that in order to have a high-speed line between Toronto and Montreal now you’ve got the province of Quebec where Montreal is and you’ve got Toronto, which is in the province of Ontario so now you’ve got all these elected people and they all want a piece you know for their constituents for their voters in their areas so in order to build a high-speed line from Toronto to Montreal they could cut the trip in half actually still the Highest speed rail journey between Toronto and Montreal is still the turbo Sikorsky’s turbo back in the 60s when we got up to. I believe it was 184 miles an hour if I’m not mistaken, I could be wrong on that but it was considering the time that was when the Japanese Shinkansen Was initially operating, both be US north east and Toronto Montreal work utilizing turbo trains, which were initially as fast and then some cases faster than the Japanese Shinkansen but not for long I mean that train is currently
Operating at 320 km an hour or 200 miles an hour. I mean we’re lucky if we can get a train that’ll do 120 km an hour or 75 miles an hour I mean there’s places where the current train between Toronto and Montreal and Toronto to Windsor going west may get up to 160 km an hour for 100 miles an hour, but that’s an exception just in certain little patches via rail unfortunately doesn’t own much rail. It is owned by CP rail for CPKC now or Canadian national or CN as both of those carriers used to operate all of the passenger trains in Canada excluding the occasional Amtrak train into Montreal and or Toronto….. unfortunately in order for us to get high-speed rail they had a plan OK we’re going to go from Toronto to Montreal and we’re going to build new tracks and everything else appropriate properties and someone and so forth apparently they purchased all kinds of properties and houses are just vacant houses buildings farms, etc., which would cut two hours off the trip between Toronto and Montreal, but the idiot politicians they all want a piece of the action so now what they’re talking about with the high-speed train because governors our premiers and council members and someone in Quebec all want a piece of the auction as well like further north in Quebec, so they’re talking about building a high-speed line which will reduce the travel time between Toronto and Montreal by two hours now they want to divert the high speed line coming from Toronto and going north east up to Quebec city and then dropping back down to Montreal …
So our federal government, our provincial governments and council members of the government all want a piece so what they’re going to do is reduce the travel time between Toronto and Montreal, and then take the train from Toronto to Quebec city and then back down to Montreal, which will put the two hours back on The travel time it makes no sense but everybody in the government you know like a counsellor in an area in Quebec oh, don’t worry I’ll fight so you get a high-speed train in your city or in your town and or community….😊
Sorry for my long drawn out storybook …..EH????
GO LEAFS GO !!!!!!
I’m going to Toronto next month and have tickets for a leafs game. My first ever game in Toronto. Since they’re being blessed by my presence for the first time, maybe they will win the Stanley Cup this season. I of course intend to get trains and my narratives should be very interesting. I will make comparisons between our countries, but for the most part, I will say very complementary things about Canada. I’ll interject a bit of humor whenever possible.
@@3985uprr
I look forward to all humour and yes, it’s spelt… “Humour”
@@3985uprr and good luck with those leafs the last time they won. Stanley Cup was a year I was born, which was back in the 60s. I’m not holding my breath anymore.