It's horrible living with a narcissist, especially the covert hidden narcissist, which can turn very malignant, very fast, and their dangerous to be around. Great podcast on this topic.... Thank you...
abandoned by their parents or sexually, physically, or emotionally abused. They may have been diagnosed with a mental health condition such as a personality disorder that will follow them throughout life, making it difficult for them to maintain friendships, romantic relationships, or professional careers.5 There are many adult children out there who tend to behave in narcissistic ways than there are actually full-blown narcissists. I have certainly acted in narcissistic ways. Have you and did you even more so when you were younger? Parents understandably can feel drained, worn down, and hurt when an adult child acts in a narcissistic manner. b b b
Now in my 50’s I realize that I have had many of these people in my life, including parents. I had a difficulty saying no to people or letting them know when they hurt me. Sweeping all their shortcomings under the carpet and a high tolerance for their bs, because I loved them. But I realize now - it was not love. I was lacking the love of myself. My low self esteem due to my childhood and never being told or showed that I was loved as a child. My little sister was treated differently, so from a young age I felt low of myself and looked for love in all the wrong places. I was a narcissists dream! Better to learn late than never. I am at peace now and I am loving myself more because God loves me and I am grateful to him for taking me away from my nasty ex narc.
I hear you. My life almost identical to yours except my parents showed love for my older sister & not so much for me. I hated myself & looked for love in all the wrong places too. I joined a faith group which had many let's say confident ppl who were always comparing themselves to me inasmuch as l am not so confident person. I spoke very little in this group as there were so many strong voices. There was one in particular who was lately diagnosed with ADHD. She always played the victim card with a mantra about her lifestory anytime she misheard anything or felt aggrieved which was never an intention of anyone else in the group but after she made it known about her ADHD it was like everyone else should allow her to fly off the handle & excuse her behaviour. It came to the last straw for me when she said that she hope l die. She is so wicked l have now left the group because of her behaviour. All these meetings were on whatsapp so not all if us had met in person. She came across as sweetness & light until she got a bee in her bonnet & the REAL her comes out. I have better friends who are not in a faith group. I am soon 70 years old & l, like you, know that God loves all his children. All l can do is pray for her. 🙏🏾🙏🏾🙏🏾
Great description. I’ve been around narcissists all my life and have been often researching to understand them and how to recognise them before it’s too late. I was married to a person who definitely has npd. They are never wrong, never apologise and won’t tolerate even marriage counseling. They are extremely dangerous and will destroy their own children. I narrowly escaped death, as did my children.
@@markmuller7962my mother is a covert narcissist. She destroyed our family and us the kids. The closest thing to a narcisist is a demon. These things are no human.
My experience with ADHD myself and friends that are ADHD. We seem to be incapable of being a narcissist. Unfortunately, given our sensitivity, we are probably more susceptible to the emotional manipulation by a narcissist. I've been out of a relationship with a narcissist for a while now. It sucks I wasted 13 years of my life on this person, but it has taught me what to look out for in the future.
It depends on the person. My ex was NPD but also had ADHD. His father was a full blown narcissist as well. My 23 yo son has ADHD but is not a narcissist so it really does depend on the individual.
@@Ishtar2419my ex too. He took vyvanse than would drink. The cruelty!!! Psycho!! Father, baaad, mum too... I see it in his daughter. I was around her thru teens & early 20's. Sooo sad.
Correction, Narcissus fell in love with his *REFLECTON* ( (the image) of himself, not of himself per se. In reality, the narc hates himself so and builds a fake persona which he "loves" more than anything.
I do not know a single ADHD person (including myself) who has not asked themselves "Am I a narcissist?" And I'm sure it does come from our praise seeking habits.
This confirms exactly what I thought about my ex-boyfriend he was an extreme narcissist, who managed to gaslight me on a regular basis to the point I thought I was going crazy. It took all my strength to get away from him, once I finished with him. I had endure him stalking, telephoning me, constantly, the list is endless, set fire to my bins, burnt the clothes I bought him outside my home, put my telephone number in Kings cross phone booths. He put excrement on my door, graffitied outside my home. Beat me up on the street daily until I managed to get an injunction then he still drove through my road. I started dating someone else for protection, but he tried to smash my new boyfriends car, but got my neighbours instead. Please listen to the red flags, you are not imagining it, be strong enough to leave.
Wow that's crazy stuff, it's crazy how long they can hide who they are. I was married for 8 years before I found out the truth and who she really was, because she doesn't want to be exposed any further she tried to have me murdered multiple times
This discussion is very deceiving. Someone with ADHD can also have NPD. Plus Narcissistic people and people with NPD are very common ( the reason why statistics says it's just 1% it because these people don't go to therapy and they don't get diagnosed) from my experience I would say it's 50% of the population - so be careful who you let into your life
Important to keep in mind every person can be narcissistic as it's simply a behavioral trait, we've all been narcissistic at times just like we've all been greedy, deceptive or selfish at times in our lives. It's just the frequency and intensity that vary, I guess. For someone with NPD the traits and symptoms would have to be so severe it significantly impacts their life (definition of disorder). I was curious myself to the prevalence of co-morbid ADHD and NPD so had AI run some quick estimates. Estimating the population percentage for each condition: _Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD):_ - Estimated prevalence: 0.5% to 6.2% (average: 3.3%) [1] _Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD):_ - Estimated prevalence: 8.1% to 9.5% (average: 8.8%) [2] Now, estimating the population percentage with both co-morbid conditions: _Assumptions:_ - The co-occurrence of NPD and ADHD is higher than the product of their individual prevalences (due to shared risk factors). - Using the average prevalence values: 3.3% (NPD) and 8.8% (ADHD). _Estimated co-morbidity rate:_ - Conservative estimate: 0.5% to 1.5% (assuming a modest increase due to co-occurrence) - Liberal estimate: 2% to 4% (assuming a higher increase due to shared risk factors) Please note that these estimates are rough and based on available data, which might have varying methodologies and population samples. The actual prevalence and co-morbidity rates may differ. References: [1] Stinson, F. S., et al. (2008). Prevalence, correlates, disability, and comorbidity of DSM-IV narcissistic personality disorder. Journal of Clinical Psychiatry, 69(7), 1033-1045. [2] Polanczyk, G., et al. (2014). The worldwide prevalence of ADHD: A systematic review and meta-regression analysis. Journal of Child Psychology and Psychiatry, 55(3), 345-353.
Id argue that the numbers are even higher. To many variables. Id further propose that the baseline has shifted so much that the are tons of people, who by current society's standard would go by unconsidered and under the textbook radar because so much more is generally accepted. Same thing with regards morals being not only flexible but ambiguous the extreme ends of both good and bad have shifted and when the majority of society lives or lived in the gray area. That once the extremes shifted what was once good is frowned upon and people are farore accepting and understanding of the bad. This skews the gray area by so much. Effectively make so muchore justifiable. Same things with narcissistic traits and since those traits are reinforced more now than ever it stands to reason that under current diagnosis standard many go unchecked. Just a thought. 😊@@taz.e-riding
Right before he said 1% he explained why you think it's more than that. No, just like not everyone who gets sidetracked is not ADHD, same thing for true narcissism. If you've ever been in a intimate relationship with one of these people you'll find out what it really is..and tbh I guarantee you wouldn't be saying that, and no... I don't think a lot of people are like that. I think there is a lot of features concerning western society, that are very narcissistic... Social media for instance, government for instance. But I don't think a lot of people embody it.
@@Siegefya fact is that statistics dictate it is on the rise clinically. Regardless of anything else we (not just the westerners) as a whole are being brought up and raised to embodies these characteristics. Admire those who are that way and put value on self and material things. Which devalues humans which only serves to bolster what is slowly being engrained upon us. It has been happening for some time now and was kicked into high gear with the onset of social media. Like it or not is the direction that the world population is going. As with anything there are outside group or smaller populations that don't subscribe to this and you would be right to point that out. Sadly though that smaller population or group used to be those with narcissistic traits. They didn't used to be so common place. It has been engineered as such forced subtly over time. To the masses little by little until it is so socially normal that it isn't even noticed until it is too late.
After being in a relationship from late teen for 6 years , then trying to coparent for another 13 years after seperating, I can clearly see & feel my brain functions completely different now which has got me looking into CPTSD & ADHD, attatchment theory,narcissism, was at one point very concerned I was a narcissist as developed unhealthy traits that were never previously part of who I was, checked myself and learning how to react as myself again with love and good intentions instead of learnt behaviour from being around someone for so long who only had thier own best interests as a priority, I had never in my life growing up seen humans as selfish, manipulative & deceitful, found out I was being gaslit into thinking i was always the problem after my partner for years throwing massive tantrums, messing with my reality & trying to isolate me from friends and family, interesting thing is I have had very intimate conversations with friends & others who have had physical brain trauma & I was curious to find I have many of the same issues functioning on a daily basis, I remember the time in my life where I was highly functional & did not have these issues. It has fascinated me seeing how my brain has developed over 2 decades into ADHD & CPTSD (in my opinion), I was not this way as a child or teen, am looking how to manage & heal my new brain terrain
From my experience, narcissist needs lots of admiration and is visibly «teacher» vibe. This is a person who consider himself the judge. You will have to chase him. Also depends how you look like (if beautiful) or what you have that he can benefit from ( access to good things in life). You will sense across few dates already they will spit unkind comments but blame you to be unkind. Its intuitive. You will feel it. It will confuse you. Specially if you are adhd or depressed, you will feel guilty and not deserving of him. If you feel some of this, run. Silently.
I am quite disappointed, this is a podcast with rare opportunity to discuss dynamics of relationship between ADHD and NPD partners. Because how these traits connect in a specific way, and such relationships happen more often than between ADHD and types of people. In particular, lack of empathy in NPD person makes them seek and value partner with ADHD who is extra sensitive.
It's a very deep subject so perhaps you could make a request directly about this. This psychologist comes back regularly so perhaps they will do a deeper exploration of what you are asking.
I was married to a covert narcissist for 15 years.I had to heal and walk away.Thankful for this teaching..Being afraid is not an option when leaving a narcissist.
I am autistic and ADHD. We are prey for narcissists. She was an abusive and violent drunk. I was assaulted, thousands of dollars of my property destroyed. She ignored restraining orders and existing court orders and she still stalks me. She is the worst thing that ever happened to me. I am not the same person anymore. I relived my traumatic childhood all over again. She groomed for a year before she came in for the kill.
@@Camposdarkoautistic people have high emotional empathy just have a harder time expressing it in a way that is deemed socially appropriate in real time before getting a chance to process things. You are perpetuating outdated myths by saying that and I kindly suggest you educate yourself. Things have moved on a lot from when people used to think that and it all stems from faulty tests that were done. We deeply care about the wellbeing of others but can often, in the moment, not notice if we are saying/doing something that could be hurtful to others but once we are made aware of it or realise it ourselves afterwards…we are the first to apologise, take accountability and try to make amends.
I’ll also add that a large portion of us (myself included) have been manipulated by narcissists exactly because of our naivety and tendency to take what people say at face value. Difficulty reading between the lines and naturally assuming that others are well intentioned and have no hidden agenda like ourselves is exactly what leads to these situations. People who say otherwise are either just ignorant or are narcissistic themselves and trying to justify their poor treatment of autistic people
@JL-dl8nr thank you. 21yr old daughter has adhd and autism. Family consider her cold and lacking empathy. She is such a sweet person and extremely generous to her sister and l. People certainly need to educate themselves on the subject.
I’ve been studying Covert Narcissism for months and I’ve heard from a very well known specialist that 1 in 6 people are. Definitely the majority don’t get diagnosed but there are many many people out there who are.
I listen to him but he is not clear enough. He speak too much as a theorist. I don’t find him practical at all. I wish it was different especially that he is a narcissist himself
Meanwhile he has zero idea of the link between ADHD and pathological narcissism hence the crazy amount of misdiagnosed ppl. Also he has some bizarre non-scientific (and extreme, often in a negative way) takes on NPD but yea, overall a knowledgeable professional if you know how to filter out some of the extremes taking into account that he's NPD himself alongside a eastern-europe very conservative or old mindset
@@ceciliamac4283Well that's his role and specialization, I'm sure there are other sources more on the practical spectrum if you need them (most people don't cuz we're not therapists)
@@markmuller7962 Thank you for your feedback. We need the practical language even when we are not therapists. My mother is stuck in a 45 years marriage with a narcissist and I know it would help her. Best,
Every single thing in this discussion happened in my last relationship. I have experience of overt narcissists, but not covert. It took me a long time to see what was happening. I feel battered and bruised, confused and misunderstood (everyone thought he was handsome and charming). Thank you for this video.
Covert is horrendous. My dad is on that side, and trust me, watching him in his relationship with my mum really messed up my idea of what was the right and wrong approach for such a long time. Luckily my mum’s a huge empath, and I absorbed most of my traits for treating people from her. I feel so sorry for anyone who has had to deal with a covert narcissist in their lives - it’s truly awful. And sadly, the victim is often not believed as the narcissist is so wonderful to the outside world.
Narcissists have targeted me my entire life and weaponised my adhd against me. Edit: for context, I had someone who would hide my stuff and know that I would blame myself because my ADHD makes me forgetful. When I was on ADHD meds this started remembering where I had left things so I knew when they were taken.
Omw! I ve also had this happen to me. My brother would steal from me, my mother put the stuff back and told me it was all in my head. Truly crazy making! Amazed to find out this happens to pple.
My mother is a narcissist, and she does apologize, but it’s only in word and she makes you feel guilty at the same time. She will also revisit the apology she had to make for years to come.
Memory gaps. They're always in denial. You cannot bring up any conversation that includes anything negative. The conversation doesn't go anywhere. They don't hear what you say. It's only what matters to them. Liars think everyone else are also liars. They promise and never keep the promise. He gave me nothing. And took everything. You will get a strange feeling when you meet them. Uncanny feeling. I think I did but I didn't think much of it at the time. It was challenging me. I said who or what is this about. They keep moving the goal post. And they aren't capable of real intimacy.. Some are very creative. I didn't learn right away what narcissism really was. I never knew it existed. Some are criminally minded. The covert is sadistic.
What a brilliant talk, Dr Mark Rackley should be doing his own podcast, and the questions you asked were brilliantly relevant in so much as most people can identify with those particular sessions. Food for thought!
Love bombing is usually characterised by acts and expressions that take normal infatuation to the extreme. It also happens too soon for there to be a plausible real connection. Signs youre being love bombed if anything like this happens after one or two dates: - They say you're the most amazing person ever. -They say you're the one -They say they can't live without you -They ask what you want for your birthday -They start talking about moving in together/kids/marriage. -They turn up at your house so often they've practically moved in without a discussion about it (flip side, they invite you round so often that you feel like you've moved in accidentally). -They buy something, or take you on an expensive experience or holiday that's way beyond anything you'd expect after such a short tkme knowing each other. - They (a woman) want to get physical very very fast, and combine it with one or two of the other signs. Women can have high sex drives and want sex, but social pressure against this is still VERY strong. It's very unusual to find a woman who is sexually aggressive very early but also claims to want a serious relationship. And I'm not talking about just being open to it, I mean she's pushing for it, like throwing herself at you so much it feels like you're in a movie. -Source: was love bombed, sex bombed, and trapped by a covert narc for 6 years. I kid you not, with no flirting or foreplay, i went over to help her fix something and when i was done she threw herself on me. I was a virgin. I had no chance 😢
You poor baby my my Always said many boys get virally SA buy women when they loss there V, iv found over years hearing boy story’s this is sometimes the case
I would like a conversation about developed ADHD & CPTSD & the difference between those, after being with a narcissist long term, Also a compassionate approach to narcissists & how this develops, i have seen a correlation of covert narcs having an emotionally unavailable parent who always made them feel not good enough alongside the other parent purposefully overcompensating, overindulging them and giving them a sense of entitlement & allowing bad behaviour because they want thier child to feel loved , These people are on the inside very insecure and are flip flopping between feeling extreme shame & self entitlement, do not like to be faced with those emotions as are too painful, Staying in a relationship and trying to help these people should not be to our own detrament, but i still think people do not understand these people are in extreme pain reliveing all thier childhood pain on a daily basis, to develope empathy they would have to be able to face and feel those supressed emotions , i do believe this is posible, i just see we havnt learnt how to help these people so we are demonising them. Inner child work perhaps? But like a drug addict, something must be the catalist for them to want to get help & change, we just havnt figured out yet?
I'm not sure if the doctor is being accurate when it comes to NPD. Something to bear in mind is that most personality disorders are ego syntonic. That means that the traits align with the way the person feels they can and SHOULD be. That almost certainly goes double for most people with NPD because by definition they feel like they're the best thing since sliced bread (if we leave the deeper subconscious fact that they hate themselves for the time being). So as far as NPD goes they often appear mentally unstable, but they FEEL fine. Oh they'll complain about anxiety or depression, but not about the actual symptoms of their NPD because it's literally their personality. They feel like they're justified in those behaviours. They will leave a dozen shattered relationships and shattered people in their wake. But no amount of arguing will convince them that they're the ones responsible for that. They'll just insist that they're unlucky and bad people always find them. Highly narcissistic people are the classic "all mt exs are crazy" sort of people.
I was hoping this might touch on the higher rates of diagnosis of ADHD comorbid with NPD. Even so, there's tons of excellent, useful information in here.
The definition of a narcissist is actually the presence of a spiritual child inside an adult body - this may not be a clinical definition, but it sure is the definition of the experience from those who have come in contact with them. The original narcissist is a child, who MUST make their every behaviour about themselves becoz to thwm it is a matter of survival. But as we get older, we need to be taught that we are no longer helpless and that we can therefore turn our attention to the step of socialisation with others becoz if we do not make this step in progress, we WILL NOT survive out there becoz no-one wants to carry a slew of adult children on their backs - they WILL find themselves dumped and left behind on the side of the road. The presence of demons or other entities within these ppl aside, the fact that a person appears to be making everything about themselves is merely an indication that they have been so damaged as a child, and that the wound STILL has not been healed, becoz it CAN be healed but it takes the trust of that child to let the spiritual physician near them in order to tend the wound for healing.
Interesting to listen to. My ex was definitely a narc. Short relationship which turned out to be her looking for someone to go on holiday with (she had zero friends). However, I've realised I have narc traits. I do like validation and know I need to work on it. Just glad to be self-aware enough to know I don't have NPD 😅
Some level of narcissism is normal and necessary and we all need validation from others given we’re social interdependent animals. Some of us are too dependent on outside validation though which can make us lean towards co-dependency and people pleasing (I’m not OK, you’re OK, and I need you to tell me I’m OK) or towards narcissism (I’m OK, in fact I’m the best and you need to be subservient in the relationship and validate that I’m the best for there to even be a relationship).
Narcissist will adapt bc they mirror others. They WILL go to therapy "for the other" . Few professionals can see thru them and they boast of beign smarter than therapist. They also change therapist often if they are in danger of exposure.
Super interesting! I still worry about whether or not I’m a narcissist myself as well as different family members or people I encounter. It seems it’s really not so strait forward to diagnose or identify people’s motives etc…. especially when there can be so much overlap between different conditions.
But I think 2 narcs can work together to manipulate and smear another...i.e. criminal activity together, character assassination of the truth teller/whistle blower...expecially when they work together and are both feeling threatened by the whistle blower.....until they are done benefiting from each other at least...
Really good explanation of the difference between lovebombing and a healthy but enthousiastic lover. We all know it in theory, but lovebombers don't have to be smooth and giving a 'full of himself-show' on the first date. They can look quite normal (also who's normal these days 😅) 》healthy. Thank you for summing up how simple behaviors of genuine love looks like in the early stages.
My heart sank when I saw the title. I thought: "Here we go again, ADHDers accused of even more attention seeking". Since being diagnosed with ADHD three years ago it's been really tiring coming up against so much suspicion. Seems it's made me as suspicious in return. Thanks for a fascinating video. Got yourself a sub. 👍
I am not a therapist, and I cannot ever claim to diagnose anyone whether the person is a narcissist or not, it’s not for me to make that judgment .I just don’t like to be around , or Deal with people who are very very difficult, antagonistic nasty personalities, I limit myself or I don’t deal with them at all. Blessings to anyone if you have been damaged by a terrible person, narcissist or not,you are bent you are NOT broken, get up wash your face , and your essentials, put on nice clothes, put on makeup 💄 if you’re a woman, dust yourself off and get back out there. They are billions are great people on the planet, there’s healing please don’t lose hope.
The unwillingness to go to therapy ended my 18 year relationship when it became the boundary I set for continuation of the relationship. Years of last minute excuses, forgetting, even flat out refusing or gaslighting. It was a weird experience to show up to therapy without her after her promising to be there, not responding to messages then continuing to gaslight that we never made such arrangements.
They don't need a reason to attack. Nothing you do will make them more or less attack you. They always feel the need to attack. Everything makes them feel inadequate. Even with yiur absence, that emptiness needs to be filled and they will stalk you, harassing you endlessly. You just blink and they have already been attacking. Their brain is wired wrong.
I’ve unfortunately dated both!! Overt and covert narcissists!! Both were equally toxic and both are gone from my life now forever!! One died and the other has a Restraining order!! I’m happy and living a happy, wonderful, healthy life now!! I’m alone and I’m not mad about it at all!!😁
I would also be interested in a talk on the differences / similarities between narcissism and the dismissive avoidant personality attachment style. The two present in a very similar way and have a similar effect on others I think.
What also needs to be taken into consideration is if someone had a narcissistic parent(s) in childhood which for many will cause them to divert to what they’re used to: narcissistic partners. ADHD, childhood with intense, vile, toxic, narcissistic mother, I gravitated to men with the same “tendencies” of my mother.
I'm an Objectivist and have defended rational narcissism for over a decade, as it is a necessary part of rational selfishness within the philosophy (I think this is even more important in the default guilt setting adhd people start life with). I think their needs to be a distinction between the two, as we need this is our defense more than most. We need to center ourselves, so not to be taken advantage of and have a proper self-esteem.
Like... taking care of yourself is a good thing? Because this isn't new information? We don't have to go through pathology to validate self-love as a healthy behaviour 😅
Thank you for all the insights! On the monetization end (and without suggesting company sponsorships) I would like to suggest allowing memberships or maybe opening Patreon, both as a mere support option and without actual 'benefits' other than supporting the channel. I'd totally be in for good!
1% of the population is still 1 in 100 people. That is still 700,000 people in the UK and they're all seeking power to make them invulnerable. Plus that 1% is a very conservative estimate because, as stated, narcissistic people don't seek help or diagnosis. So, even with the conservative estimate, it is s huge issue. Imagine the amount of damage 1 person in every 100 (at the very least) can do in personal and working relationships, especially if they hold power and control over others. So I'm not so sure that casting doubt about people's ability to recognise narcissism in others is helpful. This is a big issue.
I had a narcissist as my previous boss and he did not like me at all. Long story short, I no longer work there and my reputation is in tatters. They are incredibly dangerous!
1 out of every 100 people is considered to have NPD (and, as explained in the talk, this could be higher because genuine Narcissists don't go for professional help) + 1 out of every 100 people could have antisocial personality disorder (be a psychopath). Am I the only one to think that actually that's A LOT - and basically means we've all had encounters with these dangerous personality types.
It is a lot. And after I was with someone who definitely had npd I realized I've been in contact with a lot of narcissists in my life. No, didn't find out what narcissism is and got to claiming everyone who's wronged me to be npd, no... My sister definitely is either npd or BPD and she's never really wronged me directly. But I can recognize those traits in people very easily now after spending 13 years with one then learning that they were one when I realized I was psychologically abused severely in the cycle. They are horrible when they get people in their cycle.
This has been so fascinating. I have watched tons of these discussions because i just cant get clear on how bad is the narcissist in my life. I think he is covert, but very low on the scale. But i feel so much like i’m in a yo-yo. Any words of advice? And i do have ADHD. Thank you
Carol.. it's a slow burner, you will eventually be swallowed up in the needs and services that they require from you, eventually you will be drained of all your life force energy and tossed out, that is what happened to me. Keep educating yourself on the subject.
I think the eggs analogy could be extended to include on of the difficult elements of ADHD and that is being put under unwanted pressure can lead to cracking. And without the structure of, say an omelette pan, a lot of the goodness can get wasted.
Yep you definitely a fellow ADHDer lol, we know Murphy's law very well. Can see all sides to damn near everything good or bad. 100% agree with you btw.
Me auDHD with CPTSD caused by an NPD wanting to plot revenge 🫠 but its the CPTSD. And also with other ppl that treat me like my nex I do have these revenge fantasies but dont act upon them. Important to also note that (C)PTSD ppl often have a lot of supressed rage and often feel like revenge after all the abuse. Doesnt make u a narc. Its more of a reactive type of abuse thing, not real narcissism.
I had a similar issue and I am audhd too. The two narc involved were people with autism too. One of them is probably a psychopath too. I hope you have good friends or family to support you. Stay strong 😊
Validation + RSD + Perfectionism + masking + low self-esteem 🤷♀️ Very much milder (and different) than NPD tho, especially on how deeply rooted and delusional the actual NPD is (and that's why it's considered chronic) Edit: It can be severe in late diagnosed tho and these cases can easily be misdiagnosed as NPD
@skippy6462 I think that is possible. I was in a relationship with someone who fit that type. I know ADHD well. It's in my family, and I have many adhd friends. It was a really difficult and confusing predicament to find this extra dimension in someone with adhd. I fell right into it as I am myself a rescuer. I have been working on that. It was pretty awful. I don't know if it was npd or bpd for absolute sure, because they look similar from the outside, and anyway, I can't really diagnose. However, there is plenty of compelling evidence. It was heartbreaking and quite chaotic, though.
@@marcuscosgrove9431 I feel this comment so deeply. I’m not sure what the diagnosis is but my gut has been worried almost since the beginning. I’m a rescuer too apparently thats what my mum always says! I feel compelled to help but also frozen by fear. I feel trapped. I also want to see this person fulfilled and happy but I’m not sure if that’s even possible. I feel monitored.
@@Chicky1234-m3f rescuing is a dangerous game. I usually don't set out with rescuing in mind, but I will always help anyone who needs it. In a relationship this can end up with all kinds of screwy dependencies. This attracts a certain type, and in the end it leads to devaluation and discard. It has taken me a very long time to work that out.
In six decades, I have known two narcissists, one a boss and one an ex-husband. They can become quite cruel. The ex-husband could become physically aggressive. My boss, a woman, was so professionally abusive that she built up a condition where I could be fired unless I did what she demanded or did every piece of minutia at her bekon-call. Always a threat of losing my source of income. I have known many people with narcissistic traits but they are shy of dangerous behaviors.
15:40 My covert narcissistic ex wanted access to the visa I could provide her. She was very smart and played the long game. Waited like 2 years into the relationship before bringing up the visa thing. Making it seem natural. Their cunning is unparalleled. She also brought it up right after her granddad died so I'd have felt shitty turning it down. I didn't think of the timing before, but it's highly suspicious to me now, knowing what I know.
My husband's mother is a covert narcissist and I have adhd. Many times my husband can't tell the difference. He thinks I am deliberately being neglectful lazy and careless as his mother used to do , but the difference being she did it on purpose to destroy people around her and I do it out of genuine forgetfulness/overstimulation etc.
My ex partner was diagnosed with bipolar disorder type one and as a psychopath and he went to prison for assaulting myself and my son. His psychiatrist warned me that if i went back to him he would kill me one day. I now suffer with ptsd and anxiety
Okay well for those of us who have lost a loved one to gun violence/suicide your opening graphic was callous, insensitive and stupid. And as a person with ADHD I thought this might be another channel to visit regularly but here's the thing: reputable psychologists are very wary and very prudent around labels, knowing that they can be misused and misunderstood and soon everyone is going around claiming that anyone who isn't to their liking must be a malignant narcissist.
I dont think I'm a narcissist but do have tendencies that i work on daily. I won't go to a doctor (red flag) but I do often feel hurt by how I have spoken to somebody or how I may have made someone feel. But I have played victim during my lifetime and I have to apologise all the time for saying things in a manipulative way. I am on a long path of inner work and counselling myself because if I talked to someone, they may lock me up 😅 my dad was my idol until recently. He is definitely a narcissist. I have worried I am a narcissist, maybe covert. But I'm open about it with close family and my partner.
Covert means hidden - they hide what they are and they do it deliberately coz they know they would catch no-one in their trap if they were honest about what they were. I once just threw out there to my ex-husband, I said "you did a bait and switch on me didn't you?" and without thought he just blurted out "yes"... After 30 yrs of trying to stay with him, I eventually just gave up and left - I was the ONLY reason it lasted 30yrs, he was the only reason it ended, and if i had given up when i should have, he would not have had the multiple opportunities he had to save himself but refused to try to change becoz he not only thought i would never leave, but he also thought he deserved to have another person make themselves a permanent slave of abuse for him... He just thought it was his right...
The information available on the internet and in books has helped people recognize narcissists. It's ridiculous to say you to need a professional assessment to know someone is a narcissist. If you've been in a relationship with one (or more, because if you were raised by narcs you'll be attractive/drawn to narcs) and you have been exposed to good information on their traits, you can dependably call a narc a narc.
I think it's important to understand that ADHD and NPD can both co-occur, and having ADHD can increase the risk of developing NPD. I feel like the narrative here is a bit biased.
You can. I'm fairly certain my dad has both, or at least is highly narcissistic. He's very selfish, has narcissistic rages over even tiny criticisms. He's currently binge eating himself to death while having diabetes. But he's so narcissistic that even well-meaning attempts to help him change are met with cussing and shouting. He almost died from diabetic comas twice already, but god forbid you remind him that he can't drink 6 cans of coke a day as a diabetic. ADHD is where the bingeing comes from, but narcissism is where the ego and resistance to change comes in. Even someone with serious RSD can admit to being in the wrong once they've calmed down. He never has and seemingly never will.
@IshtarNike Addiction to caffeine and sugar are very powerful even more for ADHD as they provide dopamine to a dopamine deficient brain. I doubt criticism will help him heal from addiction or telling him what he already knows, and he's been bombarded with from every flank. I don't know him or why he's selfish, so I can't comment on that or if he might be narcissistic. But he's certainly not because of his eating habits or health issues or being fed with being shamed for them. We all have resistance to change to a certain extent. I also doubt you or the people around him are qualified to help him, as proven by the results mentioned. He might need a new approach from the help he might receive hopefully soon
I keep forgetting my washing in the machine, too. It often gets re-rinsed or re-washed a couple of times before I finally put it on an airer. An airer, by the way, that I've been tripping over all week full of the previous washing that's been dry for a week. Oh dear. 🙄
Also I dont agree with love bombing and fast moving. Actually narcissist will withold attention and love giving so you bond yourself and ask for it. Thats how they feel special.
I dated a narcissist and it was torture. Luckily he wasnt so attached to me that i couldnt escape but whenever he was in my circle i was absolutely drained by him
Funny to read here people blaming ALL THEIR EXES BEING NARCISSISTS , SERIOUSLY (NPD)? IT would be statistically impossible tbh... I get it , divorces, relationships are hard but maybe little look in the mirror aswell... Not everyone is a narc. Its just buzzword these days. It sells
Absolutely. I hate this tendency to rely purely on diagnosis because it's just unrealistic. Someone who has lived with a narcissist for years is VERY well equipped to give a PROVISIONAL diagnosis and proceed from there. It can change if you get new information, but there's little harm in doing it if it keeps you safe. Personally, it got me out of a horrible emotionally abusive relationship.
@@IshtarNikeI don't think that is true. There are experienced with that individual. But you can't tell me that there isn't going to be resentments and biased view about it. Clinical diagnostics even can confuse it with several other conditions. Best thing to do is to leave. Because if you dont them a lot of the tactics that people advice to use against a diagnosed Narcissist are in fact abuse to those who do not have it. You can either leave the monster or you risk becoming the monster.
I understood that antisocial personality disorder is found in a higher prevalence in people with ADHD. Don't ASDP's + NPD's exhibit similar types of behaviours? Can you talk about this issue please? It seems not to get talked about in ADHD circles but I think is important for us to consider and scope out so we understand it clearly.
I have been with someone with an agenda and ADHD, controlling and with rage episod... I had the feeling he needs people around him to get done what he cannot because of his adhd or to bust his dopamine. I think that the root of narcisism can be ADHD, that does not mean that all ADHD have personality disorder.
A narcissist will sometimes pretend that they see that they are the problem and write letters and say they will go to a therapist, but again, it's just future faking. They won't.
I have a covert narcissistic husband, I have been with for like 31 years, and I just found out that he is. But he isn't really mean, but I know he can be. But he showed that side of him, and I basically showed him I was absolutely disgusted with that, so I believe he won't do that again but he would if I leave him. I felt that when his pity party wasn't working, he became just crewl
Seems like the guest's definition of narcissism is lacking the most important factor which is the link between low self-esteem and narcissism (which actually makes even more apparent it's connection with ADHD, especially the late diagnosed)
Narcissism is such a buzzword these days. Most of the "experts" lack nuance and are preying on traumatised people who are (rightfully) angry because this emotion gets clicks.
@@markmuller7962 I get the irony. Most people have narcissistic traits - it's human - so I don't mind something coming across as narcissistic. But you've exemplified the hollow buzzword aspect really well in that I can make one comment (which happened to be in agreement with you, interestingly) and then I'm sarcastically called narcissistic.
Both narc and adhd is widely used now in media. Narc will always inform you that he/she has some mental issue. Sometimes it can be adhd, I also got «derealisation» from one. But you will quickly discover that this person sits on high horse and is entitled. You will feel it in your guts. Its huge distinction between actual adhd and narc.
What he says is true. I was in relationship with one for 3 years. Tgen i nearlt walked into another relationship with another one. 😊. Luckily i got out of those relationships. Look out for the red flags ⛳⛳⛳
Me 2 and i'm in shock since i began learning about narcissism. December 2019 while having a bath i realized that my mother is one. I understood immediately that she is not the only one in my family and that my upbringing lead to lots of encounters with narcs without me recognizing behaviours that are abusive.
Wrong. There was a time when psychology believed NPD was rare, but since internet, people are able to talk about the narcs in there lives, and Dr. Ramani says it's 1 out of 6 people now.
It was the man who invented psychoanalysis ‘Sigmund Freud’ who weaved Greek mythology into Psychoanalysis. Freud was a genius and an Artist who sought to understand the mind and human condition.
Would the narcissist use the suggestion of going to see a psychologist as a way to manipulate? Especially the covert narcissist? If they are so convinced they aren't a narcissist would they think they could go and use this as something to beat the other person with later? Like oh you made me go, you thought there was something wrong with me but it must have been you all along....that kind of thing?
It's horrible living with a narcissist, especially the covert hidden narcissist, which can turn very malignant, very fast, and their dangerous to be around. Great podcast on this topic.... Thank you...
abandoned by their parents or sexually, physically, or emotionally abused. They may have been diagnosed with a mental health condition such as a personality disorder that will follow them throughout life, making it difficult for them to maintain friendships, romantic relationships, or professional careers.5
There are many adult children out there who tend to behave in narcissistic ways than there are actually full-blown narcissists. I have certainly acted in narcissistic ways. Have you and did you even more so when you were younger? Parents understandably can feel drained, worn down, and hurt when an adult child acts in a narcissistic manner. b b b
Now in my 50’s I realize that I have had many of these people in my life, including parents. I had a difficulty saying no to people or letting them know when they hurt me. Sweeping all their shortcomings under the carpet and a high tolerance for their bs, because I loved them. But I realize now - it was not love. I was lacking the love of myself. My low self esteem due to my childhood and never being told or showed that I was loved as a child. My little sister was treated differently, so from a young age I felt low of myself and looked for love in all the wrong places. I was a narcissists dream!
Better to learn late than never. I am at peace now and I am loving myself more because God loves me and I am grateful to him for taking me away from my nasty ex narc.
Amen 🙏
I hear you. My life almost identical to yours except my parents showed love for my older sister & not so much for me. I hated myself & looked for love in all the wrong places too. I joined a faith group which had many let's say confident ppl who were always comparing themselves to me inasmuch as l am not so confident person. I spoke very little in this group as there were so many strong voices. There was one in particular who was lately diagnosed with ADHD. She always played the victim card with a mantra about her lifestory anytime she misheard anything or felt aggrieved which was never an intention of anyone else in the group but after she made it known about her ADHD it was like everyone else should allow her to fly off the handle & excuse her behaviour. It came to the last straw for me when she said that she hope l die. She is so wicked l have now left the group because of her behaviour. All these meetings were on whatsapp so not all if us had met in person. She came across as sweetness & light until she got a bee in her bonnet & the REAL her comes out. I have better friends who are not in a faith group. I am soon 70 years old & l, like you, know that God loves all his children. All l can do is pray for her. 🙏🏾🙏🏾🙏🏾
Me having Adhd survived 13 years of absolute narcisstic abuse. Now treating C-PTSD. We need this information more and more.
Great description. I’ve been around narcissists all my life and have been often researching to understand them and how to recognise them before it’s too late. I was married to a person who definitely has npd. They are never wrong, never apologise and won’t tolerate even marriage counseling. They are extremely dangerous and will destroy their own children. I narrowly escaped death, as did my children.
Wtf
I'm forever thankful that despite dismissing my gut feeling about my previous marriage, I never caved on not having kids with him.
@@markmuller7962my mother is a covert narcissist.
She destroyed our family and us the kids.
The closest thing to a narcisist is a demon. These things are no human.
😢
Glad you got out ❤
My experience with ADHD myself and friends that are ADHD. We seem to be incapable of being a narcissist. Unfortunately, given our sensitivity, we are probably more susceptible to the emotional manipulation by a narcissist. I've been out of a relationship with a narcissist for a while now. It sucks I wasted 13 years of my life on this person, but it has taught me what to look out for in the future.
Yep. Adhd are deeply sensitive, not malicious. 🎉
13 years, same. ADHD diagnosis... Same. I also have PTSD.
It depends on the person. My ex was NPD but also had ADHD. His father was a full blown narcissist as well. My 23 yo son has ADHD but is not a narcissist so it really does depend on the individual.
@@Ishtar2419my ex too. He took vyvanse than would drink. The cruelty!!! Psycho!! Father, baaad, mum too... I see it in his daughter. I was around her thru teens & early 20's. Sooo sad.
😅
Correction, Narcissus fell in love with his *REFLECTON* ( (the image) of himself, not of himself per se.
In reality, the narc hates himself so and builds a fake persona which he "loves" more than anything.
👏🏻 So true.
Very true 💯
So true!!
I do not know a single ADHD person (including myself) who has not asked themselves "Am I a narcissist?" And I'm sure it does come from our praise seeking habits.
I think it’s the over thinking as well.
This confirms exactly what I thought about my ex-boyfriend he was an extreme narcissist, who managed to gaslight me on a regular basis to the point I thought I was going crazy. It took all my strength to get away from him, once I finished with him. I had endure him stalking, telephoning me, constantly, the list is endless, set fire to my bins, burnt the clothes I bought him outside my home, put my telephone number in Kings cross phone booths. He put excrement on my door, graffitied outside my home. Beat me up on the street daily until I managed to get an injunction then he still drove through my road. I started dating someone else for protection, but he tried to smash my new boyfriends car, but got my neighbours instead. Please listen to the red flags, you are not imagining it, be strong enough to leave.
This is horrific . It’s when you leave them they really lose it .
Happened to me too but I don’t see many people talk about this aspect much
OMG sounds more like a psychopath. Glad you're out. Stay safe but don't let fear and hypervigilance control you.
Wow that's crazy stuff, it's crazy how long they can hide who they are. I was married for 8 years before I found out the truth and who she really was, because she doesn't want to be exposed any further she tried to have me murdered multiple times
That’s was a sociopath . 😮
😢
This discussion is very deceiving. Someone with ADHD can also have NPD. Plus Narcissistic people and people with NPD are very common ( the reason why statistics says it's just 1% it because these people don't go to therapy and they don't get diagnosed) from my experience I would say it's 50% of the population - so be careful who you let into your life
Calling people narcissists is just an internet fad traumatised people have picked up on. Can't wait for us to move on.
Important to keep in mind every person can be narcissistic as it's simply a behavioral trait, we've all been narcissistic at times just like we've all been greedy, deceptive or selfish at times in our lives.
It's just the frequency and intensity that vary, I guess. For someone with NPD the traits and symptoms would have to be so severe it significantly impacts their life (definition of disorder).
I was curious myself to the prevalence of co-morbid ADHD and NPD so had AI run some quick estimates.
Estimating the population percentage for each condition:
_Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD):_
- Estimated prevalence: 0.5% to 6.2% (average: 3.3%) [1]
_Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD):_
- Estimated prevalence: 8.1% to 9.5% (average: 8.8%) [2]
Now, estimating the population percentage with both co-morbid conditions:
_Assumptions:_
- The co-occurrence of NPD and ADHD is higher than the product of their individual prevalences (due to shared risk factors).
- Using the average prevalence values: 3.3% (NPD) and 8.8% (ADHD).
_Estimated co-morbidity rate:_
- Conservative estimate: 0.5% to 1.5% (assuming a modest increase due to co-occurrence)
- Liberal estimate: 2% to 4% (assuming a higher increase due to shared risk factors)
Please note that these estimates are rough and based on available data, which might have varying methodologies and population samples. The actual prevalence and co-morbidity rates may differ.
References:
[1] Stinson, F. S., et al. (2008). Prevalence, correlates, disability, and comorbidity of DSM-IV narcissistic personality disorder. Journal of Clinical Psychiatry, 69(7), 1033-1045.
[2] Polanczyk, G., et al. (2014). The worldwide prevalence of ADHD: A systematic review and meta-regression analysis. Journal of Child Psychology and Psychiatry, 55(3), 345-353.
Id argue that the numbers are even higher. To many variables. Id further propose that the baseline has shifted so much that the are tons of people, who by current society's standard would go by unconsidered and under the textbook radar because so much more is generally accepted. Same thing with regards morals being not only flexible but ambiguous the extreme ends of both good and bad have shifted and when the majority of society lives or lived in the gray area. That once the extremes shifted what was once good is frowned upon and people are farore accepting and understanding of the bad. This skews the gray area by so much. Effectively make so muchore justifiable. Same things with narcissistic traits and since those traits are reinforced more now than ever it stands to reason that under current diagnosis standard many go unchecked. Just a thought. 😊@@taz.e-riding
Right before he said 1% he explained why you think it's more than that. No, just like not everyone who gets sidetracked is not ADHD, same thing for true narcissism. If you've ever been in a intimate relationship with one of these people you'll find out what it really is..and tbh I guarantee you wouldn't be saying that, and no... I don't think a lot of people are like that. I think there is a lot of features concerning western society, that are very narcissistic... Social media for instance, government for instance. But I don't think a lot of people embody it.
@@Siegefya fact is that statistics dictate it is on the rise clinically. Regardless of anything else we (not just the westerners) as a whole are being brought up and raised to embodies these characteristics. Admire those who are that way and put value on self and material things. Which devalues humans which only serves to bolster what is slowly being engrained upon us. It has been happening for some time now and was kicked into high gear with the onset of social media. Like it or not is the direction that the world population is going. As with anything there are outside group or smaller populations that don't subscribe to this and you would be right to point that out. Sadly though that smaller population or group used to be those with narcissistic traits. They didn't used to be so common place. It has been engineered as such forced subtly over time. To the masses little by little until it is so socially normal that it isn't even noticed until it is too late.
Narcissist create ADHD in children.
true
Correct, CPTSD
Passed on from generation to generation😢
@@Ishtar2419until the misogynists are taken out of their families ❤ all narcissists are misogynists!
After being in a relationship from late teen for 6 years , then trying to coparent for another 13 years after seperating, I can clearly see & feel my brain functions completely different now which has got me looking into CPTSD & ADHD, attatchment theory,narcissism,
was at one point very concerned I was a narcissist as developed unhealthy traits that were never previously part of who I was, checked myself and learning how to react as myself again with love and good intentions instead of learnt behaviour from being around someone for so long who only had thier own best interests as a priority, I had never in my life growing up seen humans as selfish, manipulative & deceitful, found out I was being gaslit into thinking i was always the problem after my partner for years throwing massive tantrums, messing with my reality & trying to isolate me from friends and family,
interesting thing is I have had very intimate conversations with friends & others who have had physical brain trauma & I was curious to find I have many of the same issues functioning on a daily basis,
I remember the time in my life where I was highly functional & did not have these issues. It has fascinated me seeing how my brain has developed over 2 decades into ADHD & CPTSD (in my opinion), I was not this way as a child or teen, am looking how to manage & heal my new brain terrain
From my experience, narcissist needs lots of admiration and is visibly «teacher» vibe. This is a person who consider himself the judge. You will have to chase him. Also depends how you look like (if beautiful) or what you have that he can benefit from ( access to good things in life).
You will sense across few dates already they will spit unkind comments but blame you to be unkind. Its intuitive. You will feel it. It will confuse you. Specially if you are adhd or depressed, you will feel guilty and not deserving of him. If you feel some of this, run. Silently.
Your comment is a piece of pure art and knowledge, I'm sorry you had to live that nightmare!!! I live it too but I'm out now... Best wishes!
I am quite disappointed, this is a podcast with rare opportunity to discuss dynamics of relationship between ADHD and NPD partners. Because how these traits connect in a specific way, and such relationships happen more often than between ADHD and types of people.
In particular, lack of empathy in NPD person makes them seek and value partner with ADHD who is extra sensitive.
Agreed.
I was talking to people about this out of the 6 of us 4 had been in some form of narcissistic relationship.
Sorry, why are you disappointed? Your comment isn't clear.
It's a very deep subject so perhaps you could make a request directly about this. This psychologist comes back regularly so perhaps they will do a deeper exploration of what you are asking.
Fuck me 🤦♂️
I was married to a covert narcissist for 15 years.I had to heal and walk away.Thankful for this teaching..Being afraid is not an option when leaving a narcissist.
I am autistic and ADHD. We are prey for narcissists. She was an abusive and violent drunk. I was assaulted, thousands of dollars of my property destroyed. She ignored restraining orders and existing court orders and she still stalks me. She is the worst thing that ever happened to me. I am not the same person anymore. I relived my traumatic childhood all over again. She groomed for a year before she came in for the kill.
Autism is not prey , it’s almost identical to to narcissistic personality disorder when it comes to the traits like no empathy ect
@@Camposdarkoautistic people have high emotional empathy just have a harder time expressing it in a way that is deemed socially appropriate in real time before getting a chance to process things.
You are perpetuating outdated myths by saying that and I kindly suggest you educate yourself. Things have moved on a lot from when people used to think that and it all stems from faulty tests that were done.
We deeply care about the wellbeing of others but can often, in the moment, not notice if we are saying/doing something that could be hurtful to others but once we are made aware of it or realise it ourselves afterwards…we are the first to apologise, take accountability and try to make amends.
I’ll also add that a large portion of us (myself included) have been manipulated by narcissists exactly because of our naivety and tendency to take what people say at face value. Difficulty reading between the lines and naturally assuming that others are well intentioned and have no hidden agenda like ourselves is exactly what leads to these situations.
People who say otherwise are either just ignorant or are narcissistic themselves and trying to justify their poor treatment of autistic people
@@JL-dl8nrI can totally agree with the statement.
@JL-dl8nr thank you.
21yr old daughter has adhd and autism. Family consider her cold and lacking empathy. She is such a sweet person and extremely generous to her sister and l.
People certainly need to educate themselves on the subject.
I’ve been studying Covert Narcissism for months and I’ve heard from a very well known specialist that 1 in 6 people are.
Definitely the majority don’t get diagnosed but there are many many people out there who are.
Where could I read these stats ?
Sam Vaknin is the one to listen to regarding NPD
What book was he the author of??
I listen to him but he is not clear enough. He speak too much as a theorist. I don’t find him practical at all. I wish it was different especially that he is a narcissist himself
Meanwhile he has zero idea of the link between ADHD and pathological narcissism hence the crazy amount of misdiagnosed ppl.
Also he has some bizarre non-scientific (and extreme, often in a negative way) takes on NPD but yea, overall a knowledgeable professional if you know how to filter out some of the extremes taking into account that he's NPD himself alongside a eastern-europe very conservative or old mindset
@@ceciliamac4283Well that's his role and specialization, I'm sure there are other sources more on the practical spectrum if you need them (most people don't cuz we're not therapists)
@@markmuller7962 Thank you for your feedback. We need the practical language even when we are not therapists. My mother is stuck in a 45 years marriage with a narcissist and I know it would help her.
Best,
Every single thing in this discussion happened in my last relationship. I have experience of overt narcissists, but not covert. It took me a long time to see what was happening. I feel battered and bruised, confused and misunderstood (everyone thought he was handsome and charming). Thank you for this video.
Covert is horrendous. My dad is on that side, and trust me, watching him in his relationship with my mum really messed up my idea of what was the right and wrong approach for such a long time. Luckily my mum’s a huge empath, and I absorbed most of my traits for treating people from her. I feel so sorry for anyone who has had to deal with a covert narcissist in their lives - it’s truly awful. And sadly, the victim is often not believed as the narcissist is so wonderful to the outside world.
Narcissists have targeted me my entire life and weaponised my adhd against me.
Edit: for context, I had someone who would hide my stuff and know that I would blame myself because my ADHD makes me forgetful. When I was on ADHD meds this started remembering where I had left things so I knew when they were taken.
Omw! I ve also had this happen to me. My brother would steal from me, my mother put the stuff back and told me it was all in my head. Truly crazy making! Amazed to find out this happens to pple.
I’m so sorry that happened to you!! You deserve all the love and happiness you can get!!
My mother is a narcissist, and she does apologize, but it’s only in word and she makes you feel guilty at the same time. She will also revisit the apology she had to make for years to come.
You don't deserve that treatment. Those are not apologies.
They never think they are wrong
So true - a one side conversation all the time.
Memory gaps.
They're always in denial. You cannot bring up any conversation that includes anything negative. The conversation doesn't
go anywhere. They don't hear what you say. It's only what matters to them. Liars think everyone else are also liars.
They promise and never keep the promise.
He gave me nothing. And took everything.
You will get a strange feeling when you meet
them.
Uncanny feeling.
I think I did but I
didn't think much of it
at the time. It was challenging me. I said who or what is this about.
They keep moving the goal post. And they aren't
capable of real intimacy..
Some are very creative.
I didn't learn right away what narcissism
really was.
I never knew it existed.
Some are criminally minded.
The covert is sadistic.
What a brilliant talk, Dr Mark Rackley should be doing his own podcast, and the questions you asked were brilliantly relevant in so much as most people can identify with those particular sessions.
Food for thought!
Narcissis fell in love with his image not his Self . Without that distinction the pt is lost
Maybe his "image" is what he projects outwardly
Love bombing is usually characterised by acts and expressions that take normal infatuation to the extreme. It also happens too soon for there to be a plausible real connection.
Signs youre being love bombed if anything like this happens after one or two dates:
- They say you're the most amazing person ever.
-They say you're the one
-They say they can't live without you
-They ask what you want for your birthday
-They start talking about moving in together/kids/marriage.
-They turn up at your house so often they've practically moved in without a discussion about it (flip side, they invite you round so often that you feel like you've moved in accidentally).
-They buy something, or take you on an expensive experience or holiday that's way beyond anything you'd expect after such a short tkme knowing each other.
- They (a woman) want to get physical very very fast, and combine it with one or two of the other signs. Women can have high sex drives and want sex, but social pressure against this is still VERY strong. It's very unusual to find a woman who is sexually aggressive very early but also claims to want a serious relationship. And I'm not talking about just being open to it, I mean she's pushing for it, like throwing herself at you so much it feels like you're in a movie.
-Source: was love bombed, sex bombed, and trapped by a covert narc for 6 years. I kid you not, with no flirting or foreplay, i went over to help her fix something and when i was done she threw herself on me. I was a virgin. I had no chance 😢
All narcissists are misogynists even the female narcissists are misogynists!!
You poor baby my my
Always said many boys get virally SA buy women when they loss there V, iv found over years hearing boy story’s this is sometimes the case
I would like a conversation about developed ADHD & CPTSD & the difference between those, after being with a narcissist long term,
Also a compassionate approach to narcissists & how this develops, i have seen a correlation of covert narcs having an emotionally unavailable parent who always made them feel not good enough alongside the other parent purposefully overcompensating, overindulging them and giving them a sense of entitlement & allowing bad behaviour because they want thier child to feel loved ,
These people are on the inside very insecure and are flip flopping between feeling extreme shame & self entitlement, do not like to be faced with those emotions as are too painful,
Staying in a relationship and trying to help these people should not be to our own detrament, but i still think people do not understand these people are in extreme pain reliveing all thier childhood pain on a daily basis, to develope empathy they would have to be able to face and feel those supressed emotions , i do believe this is posible, i just see we havnt learnt how to help these people so we are demonising them. Inner child work perhaps? But like a drug addict, something must be the catalist for them to want to get help & change, we just havnt figured out yet?
I'm not sure if the doctor is being accurate when it comes to NPD. Something to bear in mind is that most personality disorders are ego syntonic. That means that the traits align with the way the person feels they can and SHOULD be. That almost certainly goes double for most people with NPD because by definition they feel like they're the best thing since sliced bread (if we leave the deeper subconscious fact that they hate themselves for the time being).
So as far as NPD goes they often appear mentally unstable, but they FEEL fine. Oh they'll complain about anxiety or depression, but not about the actual symptoms of their NPD because it's literally their personality. They feel like they're justified in those behaviours. They will leave a dozen shattered relationships and shattered people in their wake. But no amount of arguing will convince them that they're the ones responsible for that. They'll just insist that they're unlucky and bad people always find them. Highly narcissistic people are the classic "all mt exs are crazy" sort of people.
Amazing. So many aha moments for me in this and I have been studying narcissism for 10 years.
thank you for coming back, dr mark, and thank you alex and adhd chatter team 🙂❤
I was hoping this might touch on the higher rates of diagnosis of ADHD comorbid with NPD. Even so, there's tons of excellent, useful information in here.
The definition of a narcissist is actually the presence of a spiritual child inside an adult body - this may not be a clinical definition, but it sure is the definition of the experience from those who have come in contact with them.
The original narcissist is a child, who MUST make their every behaviour about themselves becoz to thwm it is a matter of survival.
But as we get older, we need to be taught that we are no longer helpless and that we can therefore turn our attention to the step of socialisation with others becoz if we do not make this step in progress, we WILL NOT survive out there becoz no-one wants to carry a slew of adult children on their backs - they WILL find themselves dumped and left behind on the side of the road.
The presence of demons or other entities within these ppl aside, the fact that a person appears to be making everything about themselves is merely an indication that they have been so damaged as a child, and that the wound STILL has not been healed, becoz it CAN be healed but it takes the trust of that child to let the spiritual physician near them in order to tend the wound for healing.
Interesting to listen to. My ex was definitely a narc. Short relationship which turned out to be her looking for someone to go on holiday with (she had zero friends).
However, I've realised I have narc traits. I do like validation and know I need to work on it. Just glad to be self-aware enough to know I don't have NPD 😅
Some level of narcissism is normal and necessary and we all need validation from others given we’re social interdependent animals. Some of us are too dependent on outside validation though which can make us lean towards co-dependency and people pleasing (I’m not OK, you’re OK, and I need you to tell me I’m OK) or towards narcissism (I’m OK, in fact I’m the best and you need to be subservient in the relationship and validate that I’m the best for there to even be a relationship).
So how long it lasted ? Did you went to the holiday with her and why she needed company for holidays? Thanks
Narcissist will adapt bc they mirror others. They WILL go to therapy "for the other" . Few professionals can see thru them and they boast of beign smarter than therapist. They also change therapist often if they are in danger of exposure.
This is a really well detailed, rounded discussion. Each question is answered with brilliant clarity. Enjoyed it very much. Thank you 💙
Super interesting! I still worry about whether or not I’m a narcissist myself as well as different family members or people I encounter. It seems it’s really not so strait forward to diagnose or identify people’s motives etc…. especially when there can be so much overlap between different conditions.
But I think 2 narcs can work together to manipulate and smear another...i.e. criminal activity together, character assassination of the truth teller/whistle blower...expecially when they work together and are both feeling threatened by the whistle blower.....until they are done benefiting from each other at least...
You are honest and open. Thank you.
Really good explanation of the difference between lovebombing and a healthy but enthousiastic lover. We all know it in theory, but lovebombers don't have to be smooth and giving a 'full of himself-show' on the first date. They can look quite normal (also who's normal these days 😅) 》healthy. Thank you for summing up how simple behaviors of genuine love looks like in the early stages.
My heart sank when I saw the title. I thought: "Here we go again, ADHDers accused of even more attention seeking". Since being diagnosed with ADHD three years ago it's been really tiring coming up against so much suspicion. Seems it's made me as suspicious in return. Thanks for a fascinating video. Got yourself a sub. 👍
I am not a therapist, and I cannot ever claim to diagnose anyone whether the person is a narcissist or not, it’s not for me to make that judgment .I just don’t like to be around , or Deal with people who are very very difficult, antagonistic nasty personalities, I limit myself or I don’t deal with them at all. Blessings to anyone if you have been damaged by a terrible person, narcissist or not,you are bent you are NOT broken, get up wash your face , and your essentials, put on nice clothes, put on makeup 💄 if you’re a woman, dust yourself off and get back out there. They are billions are great people on the planet, there’s healing please don’t lose hope.
The unwillingness to go to therapy ended my 18 year relationship when it became the boundary I set for continuation of the relationship. Years of last minute excuses, forgetting, even flat out refusing or gaslighting. It was a weird experience to show up to therapy without her after her promising to be there, not responding to messages then continuing to gaslight that we never made such arrangements.
They don't need a reason to attack. Nothing you do will make them more or less attack you. They always feel the need to attack. Everything makes them feel inadequate. Even with yiur absence, that emptiness needs to be filled and they will stalk you, harassing you endlessly. You just blink and they have already been attacking. Their brain is wired wrong.
I’ve unfortunately dated both!! Overt and covert narcissists!! Both were equally toxic and both are gone from my life now forever!! One died and the other has a Restraining order!! I’m happy and living a happy, wonderful, healthy life now!! I’m alone and I’m not mad about it at all!!😁
What a really great conversation this was
I would also be interested in a talk on the differences / similarities between narcissism and the dismissive avoidant personality attachment style. The two present in a very similar way and have a similar effect on others I think.
You are the best person to explain this topic. So good !🌹
What also needs to be taken into consideration is if someone had a narcissistic parent(s) in childhood which for many will cause them to divert to what they’re used to: narcissistic partners. ADHD, childhood with intense, vile, toxic, narcissistic mother, I gravitated to men with the same “tendencies” of my mother.
I enjoyed this interview so much. So rich and full of information.
I'm an Objectivist and have defended rational narcissism for over a decade, as it is a necessary part of rational selfishness within the philosophy (I think this is even more important in the default guilt setting adhd people start life with). I think their needs to be a distinction between the two, as we need this is our defense more than most. We need to center ourselves, so not to be taken advantage of and have a proper self-esteem.
Like... taking care of yourself is a good thing? Because this isn't new information? We don't have to go through pathology to validate self-love as a healthy behaviour 😅
Thank you for all the insights! On the monetization end (and without suggesting company sponsorships) I would like to suggest allowing memberships or maybe opening Patreon, both as a mere support option and without actual 'benefits' other than supporting the channel. I'd totally be in for good!
1% of the population is still 1 in 100 people. That is still 700,000 people in the UK and they're all seeking power to make them invulnerable. Plus that 1% is a very conservative estimate because, as stated, narcissistic people don't seek help or diagnosis. So, even with the conservative estimate, it is s huge issue. Imagine the amount of damage 1 person in every 100 (at the very least) can do in personal and working relationships, especially if they hold power and control over others. So I'm not so sure that casting doubt about people's ability to recognise narcissism in others is helpful. This is a big issue.
Also in gvmnts
It is 1 in 10...for ASPD/NPD...according to an ex CIA agent....
I had a narcissist as my previous boss and he did not like me at all. Long story short, I no longer work there and my reputation is in tatters. They are incredibly dangerous!
1 out of every 100 people is considered to have NPD (and, as explained in the talk, this could be higher because genuine Narcissists don't go for professional help) + 1 out of every 100 people could have antisocial personality disorder (be a psychopath). Am I the only one to think that actually that's A LOT - and basically means we've all had encounters with these dangerous personality types.
It is a lot. And after I was with someone who definitely had npd I realized I've been in contact with a lot of narcissists in my life. No, didn't find out what narcissism is and got to claiming everyone who's wronged me to be npd, no... My sister definitely is either npd or BPD and she's never really wronged me directly. But I can recognize those traits in people very easily now after spending 13 years with one then learning that they were one when I realized I was psychologically abused severely in the cycle. They are horrible when they get people in their cycle.
This has been so fascinating. I have watched tons of these discussions because i just cant get clear on how bad is the narcissist in my life. I think he is covert, but very low on the scale. But i feel so much like i’m in a yo-yo. Any words of advice? And i do have ADHD. Thank you
Carol.. it's a slow burner, you will eventually be swallowed up in the needs and services that they require from you, eventually you will be drained of all your life force energy and tossed out, that is what happened to me. Keep educating yourself on the subject.
I think the eggs analogy could be extended to include on of the difficult elements of ADHD and that is being put under unwanted pressure can lead to cracking. And without the structure of, say an omelette pan, a lot of the goodness can get wasted.
Yep you definitely a fellow ADHDer lol, we know Murphy's law very well. Can see all sides to damn near everything good or bad. 100% agree with you btw.
Of course two narcissists can get together- can be very high conflict and very transactional.
Ofcourse they can get together they just won't last
Me auDHD with CPTSD caused by an NPD wanting to plot revenge 🫠 but its the CPTSD. And also with other ppl that treat me like my nex I do have these revenge fantasies but dont act upon them. Important to also note that (C)PTSD ppl often have a lot of supressed rage and often feel like revenge after all the abuse. Doesnt make u a narc. Its more of a reactive type of abuse thing, not real narcissism.
I had a similar issue and I am audhd too. The two narc involved were people with autism too. One of them is probably a psychopath too.
I hope you have good friends or family to support you.
Stay strong 😊
@@angeliquew2131 so sweet, thank you! And I thankfully do
Validation + RSD + Perfectionism + masking + low self-esteem 🤷♀️
Very much milder (and different) than NPD tho, especially on how deeply rooted and delusional the actual NPD is (and that's why it's considered chronic)
Edit: It can be severe in late diagnosed tho and these cases can easily be misdiagnosed as NPD
Can someone be both ADHD and a covert narcissist?
@skippy6462 I think that is possible. I was in a relationship with someone who fit that type. I know ADHD well. It's in my family, and I have many adhd friends. It was a really difficult and confusing predicament to find this extra dimension in someone with adhd. I fell right into it as I am myself a rescuer. I have been working on that. It was pretty awful. I don't know if it was npd or bpd for absolute sure, because they look similar from the outside, and anyway, I can't really diagnose. However, there is plenty of compelling evidence. It was heartbreaking and quite chaotic, though.
@@marcuscosgrove9431 I feel this comment so deeply. I’m not sure what the diagnosis is but my gut has been worried almost since the beginning. I’m a rescuer too apparently thats what my mum always says! I feel compelled to help but also frozen by fear. I feel trapped. I also want to see this person fulfilled and happy but I’m not sure if that’s even possible. I feel monitored.
@@Chicky1234-m3f rescuing is a dangerous game. I usually don't set out with rescuing in mind, but I will always help anyone who needs it. In a relationship this can end up with all kinds of screwy dependencies. This attracts a certain type, and in the end it leads to devaluation and discard. It has taken me a very long time to work that out.
Thank you . That helped me a lot ! I suffer a lot of RSD...and was missdiagnosed...
In six decades, I have known two narcissists, one a boss and one an ex-husband. They can become quite cruel. The ex-husband could become physically aggressive. My boss, a woman, was so professionally abusive that she built up a condition where I could be fired unless I did what she demanded or did every piece of minutia at her bekon-call. Always a threat of losing my source of income. I have known many people with narcissistic traits but they are shy of dangerous behaviors.
Answer about lower rung everyday narcissists - they love unregulated spaces like the arts where they can exploit, grift and prey on people
15:40 My covert narcissistic ex wanted access to the visa I could provide her. She was very smart and played the long game. Waited like 2 years into the relationship before bringing up the visa thing. Making it seem natural. Their cunning is unparalleled. She also brought it up right after her granddad died so I'd have felt shitty turning it down. I didn't think of the timing before, but it's highly suspicious to me now, knowing what I know.
My husband's mother is a covert narcissist and I have adhd. Many times my husband can't tell the difference. He thinks I am deliberately being neglectful lazy and careless as his mother used to do , but the difference being she did it on purpose to destroy people around her and I do it out of genuine forgetfulness/overstimulation etc.
I have seen some narcisstic couples, but not many. One of them tends to be the uber narc though...
That description of ADHD with an Egg is incredible💯📌♥️
My ex partner was diagnosed with bipolar disorder type one and as a psychopath and he went to prison for assaulting myself and my son. His psychiatrist warned me that if i went back to him he would kill me one day. I now suffer with ptsd and anxiety
Okay well for those of us who have lost a loved one to gun violence/suicide your opening graphic was callous, insensitive and stupid. And as a person with ADHD I thought this might be another channel to visit regularly but here's the thing: reputable psychologists are very wary and very prudent around labels, knowing that they can be misused and misunderstood and soon everyone is going around claiming that anyone who isn't to their liking must be a malignant narcissist.
"He keeps messing up" is our empathy not having boundaries. We have to say "He messed up" and own it.
I dont think I'm a narcissist but do have tendencies that i work on daily. I won't go to a doctor (red flag) but I do often feel hurt by how I have spoken to somebody or how I may have made someone feel. But I have played victim during my lifetime and I have to apologise all the time for saying things in a manipulative way. I am on a long path of inner work and counselling myself because if I talked to someone, they may lock me up 😅 my dad was my idol until recently. He is definitely a narcissist. I have worried I am a narcissist, maybe covert. But I'm open about it with close family and my partner.
Covert means hidden - they hide what they are and they do it deliberately coz they know they would catch no-one in their trap if they were honest about what they were.
I once just threw out there to my ex-husband, I said "you did a bait and switch on me didn't you?" and without thought he just blurted out "yes"...
After 30 yrs of trying to stay with him, I eventually just gave up and left - I was the ONLY reason it lasted 30yrs, he was the only reason it ended, and if i had given up when i should have, he would not have had the multiple opportunities he had to save himself but refused to try to change becoz he not only thought i would never leave, but he also thought he deserved to have another person make themselves a permanent slave of abuse for him...
He just thought it was his right...
I've learned so much here !
The information available on the internet and in books has helped people recognize narcissists. It's ridiculous to say you to need a professional assessment to know someone is a narcissist. If you've been in a relationship with one (or more, because if you were raised by narcs you'll be attractive/drawn to narcs) and you have been exposed to good information on their traits, you can dependably call a narc a narc.
I think it's important to understand that ADHD and NPD can both co-occur, and having ADHD can increase the risk of developing NPD. I feel like the narrative here is a bit biased.
We need more this topic, please
But I imagine you could have both ADHD and NPD?
You can. I'm fairly certain my dad has both, or at least is highly narcissistic. He's very selfish, has narcissistic rages over even tiny criticisms. He's currently binge eating himself to death while having diabetes. But he's so narcissistic that even well-meaning attempts to help him change are met with cussing and shouting. He almost died from diabetic comas twice already, but god forbid you remind him that he can't drink 6 cans of coke a day as a diabetic. ADHD is where the bingeing comes from, but narcissism is where the ego and resistance to change comes in. Even someone with serious RSD can admit to being in the wrong once they've calmed down. He never has and seemingly never will.
@IshtarNike Addiction to caffeine and sugar are very powerful even more for ADHD as they provide dopamine to a dopamine deficient brain. I doubt criticism will help him heal from addiction or telling him what he already knows, and he's been bombarded with from every flank. I don't know him or why he's selfish, so I can't comment on that or if he might be narcissistic. But he's certainly not because of his eating habits or health issues or being fed with being shamed for them. We all have resistance to change to a certain extent. I also doubt you or the people around him are qualified to help him, as proven by the results mentioned. He might need a new approach from the help he might receive hopefully soon
100%
Great interview.
I keep forgetting my washing in the machine, too. It often gets re-rinsed or re-washed a couple of times before I finally put it on an airer. An airer, by the way, that I've been tripping over all week full of the previous washing that's been dry for a week. Oh dear. 🙄
Also I dont agree with love bombing and fast moving. Actually narcissist will withold attention and love giving so you bond yourself and ask for it. Thats how they feel special.
Intermittent Re-inforcement happens after intense Love Bombing, once they know your hooked this stage begins.
My ex definitely was NPD 💯 but he was also ADHD 🤯
The coolest doc 😊
Thanks guys! 💚
I dated a narcissist and it was torture. Luckily he wasnt so attached to me that i couldnt escape but whenever he was in my circle i was absolutely drained by him
Funny to read here people blaming ALL THEIR EXES BEING NARCISSISTS , SERIOUSLY (NPD)? IT would be statistically impossible tbh... I get it , divorces, relationships are hard but maybe little look in the mirror aswell... Not everyone is a narc. Its just buzzword these days. It sells
It’s not rare. You are still npd weather diagnosed or not
Well said Dr Ramini explained this in her work. She is a world renowned expert on narcissism
@@Listen_before_you_act according to her it's one in 6. Not 0.5% which are old stats.
Absolutely. I hate this tendency to rely purely on diagnosis because it's just unrealistic. Someone who has lived with a narcissist for years is VERY well equipped to give a PROVISIONAL diagnosis and proceed from there. It can change if you get new information, but there's little harm in doing it if it keeps you safe. Personally, it got me out of a horrible emotionally abusive relationship.
@@IshtarNikeI don't think that is true. There are experienced with that individual. But you can't tell me that there isn't going to be resentments and biased view about it. Clinical diagnostics even can confuse it with several other conditions. Best thing to do is to leave. Because if you dont them a lot of the tactics that people advice to use against a diagnosed Narcissist are in fact abuse to those who do not have it. You can either leave the monster or you risk becoming the monster.
I understood that antisocial personality disorder is found in a higher prevalence in people with ADHD. Don't ASDP's + NPD's exhibit similar types of behaviours? Can you talk about this issue please? It seems not to get talked about in ADHD circles but I think is important for us to consider and scope out so we understand it clearly.
I have been with someone with an agenda and ADHD, controlling and with rage episod... I had the feeling he needs people around him to get done what he cannot because of his adhd or to bust his dopamine. I think that the root of narcisism can be ADHD, that does not mean that all ADHD have personality disorder.
GRWM is often used to showcase products - it's not always about the person! 😅
Most GRWM videos are to do with makeup. I often learn new makeup techniques from them. So whilst straight men may not get them, women do. 😊
A narcissist will sometimes pretend that they see that they are the problem and write letters and say they will go to a therapist, but again, it's just future faking. They won't.
@ADHDchatter I'm sure I've read that people with ADHD are at greater risk of being drawn to relationships with narcissists, is this a reality?
So can someone be both?
I have a covert narcissistic husband, I have been with for like 31 years, and I just found out that he is. But he isn't really mean, but I know he can be. But he showed that side of him, and I basically showed him I was absolutely disgusted with that, so I believe he won't do that again but he would if I leave him. I felt that when his pity party wasn't working, he became just crewl
Nobody is in any relationship if there isn't something for them…
Seems like the guest's definition of narcissism is lacking the most important factor which is the link between low self-esteem and narcissism (which actually makes even more apparent it's connection with ADHD, especially the late diagnosed)
Narcissism is such a buzzword these days. Most of the "experts" lack nuance and are preying on traumatised people who are (rightfully) angry because this emotion gets clicks.
@@riveranalyse Your anti experts conment... Not narcissistic at all
@@markmuller7962 I get the irony. Most people have narcissistic traits - it's human - so I don't mind something coming across as narcissistic. But you've exemplified the hollow buzzword aspect really well in that I can make one comment (which happened to be in agreement with you, interestingly) and then I'm sarcastically called narcissistic.
@@riveranalyse i might have misread/misinterpreted your comment
Both narc and adhd is widely used now in media. Narc will always inform you that he/she has some mental issue. Sometimes it can be adhd, I also got «derealisation» from one. But you will quickly discover that this person sits on high horse and is entitled. You will feel it in your guts. Its huge distinction between actual adhd and narc.
What he says is true. I was in relationship with one for 3 years. Tgen i nearlt walked into another relationship with another one. 😊. Luckily i got out of those relationships. Look out for the red flags ⛳⛳⛳
I have the yummy INFJ, unicorn energy and I’ve been narc bait my entire life.
Me 2 and i'm in shock since i began learning about narcissism. December 2019 while having a bath i realized that my mother is one. I understood immediately that she is not the only one in my family and that my upbringing lead to lots of encounters with narcs without me recognizing behaviours that are abusive.
@@MielaMaze once you start learning it’s so bittersweet
Yes, from experience especially with ex husband and recent ex boyfriend covert narcs are so damaging and dangerous.
Wrong. There was a time when psychology believed NPD was rare, but since internet, people are able to talk about the narcs in there lives, and Dr. Ramani says it's 1 out of 6 people now.
It was the man who invented psychoanalysis ‘Sigmund Freud’ who weaved Greek mythology into Psychoanalysis. Freud was a genius and an Artist who sought to understand the mind and human condition.
If there is only 1% of narcissists, it’s not very often that you will bump onto one
Dr ramni said one in six in USA had narcissism .
So it's more than you think.
Would the narcissist use the suggestion of going to see a psychologist as a way to manipulate? Especially the covert narcissist? If they are so convinced they aren't a narcissist would they think they could go and use this as something to beat the other person with later? Like oh you made me go, you thought there was something wrong with me but it must have been you all along....that kind of thing?