Still think Kindle is Tier 2.5. Too good against Lash, Rachel, etc. Not good enough against Max, Olaf, and Eagle. Don't like the nerf to Drake but otherwise a W all around
Simultaneously love and hate this. Love, because thank goodness the team are willing to make changes and shake up the stale metagame. Kindle and Rachel also both really needed these changes. Hate, because Von Bolt and Drake are already struggling in their tier without further nerfs, and in general the principle of these changes is completely *the opposite* of what AWBW needs. The Wars World trilogy are a 20+ year old set of games and by now we've found countless natural balance oversights that the community can address. Fidelity to the cartridge is cargo-cultish at this stage. There is a missed opportunity to create multiple versions of COs - players can pick cartridge-accurate versions that they prefer (multiple even for older COs), as well as pick better balanced COs that compliment the online competitive scene.
Now that the seal has been broken, maybe we’ll get DS!Jess and Clone Andy added to shake up Tier 2 (Tier 1 on no airport no port maps?) and Tier 4 (respectively). Maybe also a no CO/The Beast option so they can do a tier 5 with Sonja, Grimm, Jugger, Flak, and The Beast (because nobody will play them in tier 4 standard outside of gimmick alts anyways).
@@kanrakucheese I agree. Playing around with CO’s having an “alternative versions” designed for different tiers. I for two would love to see a DS Jess take the weights off.
A technical buff for Lash? Sign me up. As someone who mains Lash and Grit, I’ll take any advantage I can get, even if that advantage is not having to fight Candy lol.
the thing about drake in RBC: it's just an error in his CO Dossier, he actually has -30% air even though the dossier says it's -20%. the firepower screen does display it correctly and his fighters do 70% to a normal b-copter if you really want to test it. but RBC also mixed up hawke's power and super on his wallpaper. anyway I always felt that Kindle belongs more into tier 2 than tier 3
That's not at all what I read from the Rachel patch note. It says that the infantry missile now accounts for all units, with a modifier for infantry. So it targets the highest HP value, including, vehicles, with infantry HP counting double (or triple, no idea) in that calculation. Basically, if you've got a pack with 2 infantry and a pack with 1 infantry and 5 vehicles, it will go for the latter.
This is correct yeah. Previously Rachel's 1st missile would only consider footsoldiers; it would ignore a block of 13 Mega Tanks just to hit 1 Infantry because that's the only unit with any value. Now it will consider everything, just with extra weighting for footsoldiers, so it's a lot more likely to hit a high value cluster of units with the first missile now.
It holds footsoldier HP as 4 times the value, this was explained in a video going over the changes, much like how Sturm's indirect Meteor holds indirects as twice their value.
I think it's a bad change but mainly because, as Mangs said, it's towards dumb cart balancing rather than away. That awbw nerfed max is proof that the devs would have balanced the COs a bit better if they have more time and experience to do so.
@@sebastianlucas704 I believe what inversepie6512 meant was the IS devs nerfed max, and that AWBW chose this nerfed max and that if AW continued, IS would have had more balanced CO's.
I hate the "cartridge parity" argument thrown around, because there are plenty of mechanics that are NOT present in any of the games. For instance, Cruisers should mirror the DS counter part and we still lack Sandstorm weather.
Exactly. If "authenticity" was what they wanted it would have been so since the VERY BEGINING. And WHY now? -People complain? -Traffic is down? -Staff has change thus someone diferent makes decisions now?
@@ericquiabazza2608 IMO the site admins and devs should be more open about the balancing process. Put it to a vote of at least the part of the community that has a high enough ELO ranking to matter, or give the option to play different versions of the same CO and test it over several games before completely changing the meta.
Hey, AWBW Discord member here who's had a word or two regarding this, it's actually because the devs don't get the opportunities to discuss these changes proper with the OWNER of AWBW all that often, and it's the owner that gets the last word. If there were more discussions between them more often, then we could potentially see more frequent changes like this, but that would involve unnecessary pressure on all sides.
@@i_am_jarvistm7220 That is so stupid. Even if the owner thinks the changes are necessary, not listening to the community will just make most of the active league players gravitate towards Tiny Wars or that other never ever project of Mangs's.
@@M30W3R ... Did you not read what I said thoroughly? I said it's the LOW FREQUENCY of their discussions, not matter of having them or not. People have lives outside of their jobs and online activities, you know.
I wish they would’ve chosen the better balanced version between AW2 and DS. Still, I appreciate the attempt at cartridge balance; it gives a consistent balance philosophy if nothing else.
It's a win because Kindle/Candy got kicked into Tier 2 and now I don't need to see almost all my tier 3 matches being against her. So difficult to play against her.
Improvement on an idea for my custom ceo: Day-to-day: All transports get 50% discount, +20% defense, and +2 vision Motorised assault (4 stars): Infantry and mech units receive +20% firepower, and they can move and attack immediately after exiting transports Mechanised assault (8 stars): infantry and mechs receive +40% firepower, can move and attack immediately after exiting transports, and mechs receive +1 movement
Lash gets 30% extra firepower on cities... and Kindle gets a better version of the city bonus as well as discouraging the other player from placing things on cities. Yeah no wonder Lash vs Kindle was such a brutal matchup. I was so confused when I found out Von Bolt's super stuns his own units instead of only damaging them. Then I remembered I never finished AWDS... and I remembered I never liked that game. About the only thing I liked that came out of it was seeing people play Grimm and Jake against the older COs.
I like that the gates are open for potential changes going forward. Even if it's small stuff and only every couple years I think it's good for the health of the game to shake things up a little. Excited to see where this ends up, in addition to Wars World, which i remember wanted to pursue a more balanced, less cartridge accurate version of the COs.
They're not going out of their way to nerf him, they're just making it more accurate to the actual game. These changes probably weren't originally intended as buffs, they were just silly inaccuracies that never got fixed. Also, the changes are pretty minimal anyway.
@@jerry3115right, but then why was the inconsistency there in the first place? If they wanted to go with cartridge accuracy, they wouldn't have changed the numbers around
@@epicgamerzfail4575 the thing is they've never really cared that much about cart accuracy before now. They've known about these inconsistencies (and more) for a long time but chose not to take action for a number of reasons. After all, if awbw works fine as is, why shake things up?
@@jerry3115 But it goes against their design philosophy of making COs accurate to their originally seen version. That's why Sonja and Jess don't have their much better Dual Strike versions. This nerf is going from AW 1 Drake to AW 2 Drake. It's absolutely going out of their way to nerf him. And it's a big deal, at least the air unit nerf is.
@@maudlife you misunderstand. Every CO except sturm is based off of their aw2 versions, not their awds versions. Awds is only used for the COs exclusive to that game. And besides, the old drake wasn't accurate to aw1 anyway because drake in that game gained terrain stars, not defense.
If I had a nickel for every time Nintendo made a character named Drake that was a sailor and debuted on the GBA I’d have two nickels which isn’t a lot but it’s weird that it happened twice
I think that making such a large cast all sit at the same tier would remove nearly all identity from them because it's just simply too tall of a task to find a perfect, equivalent balance across so many different abilities. I think with a cast this large, your best attempts at trying to equalize all of them is still going to have peaks and valleys unless we're trying to just scrap the uniqueness entirely in favor of like flat bonuses and very bland, generic COPs and SCOPs. I think you'll likely only ever be able to crush the list down to like 3 tiers at best if you're still trying to maintain what makes each of them unique.
@@IceMaverick13 Incorrect. It's all about fine tuning. Yeah I don't think they would all be perfectly balanced but they could be balanced enough to where skilled players can make any of them work. Like adding costs or drawbacks to certain powers, besides changing numbers around. There's no reason why Colin's power should be free, for example. Maybe it should cost defense for a turn. There's many ways it can be done, but saying "it's impossible" is not one of them
I personally enjoy balance changes, as they can often mix things up and make things feel fresh. It may not be a bad idea to switch between a bit of tweaking and returning to original stats just to mix things up. Perhaps they could make them separate game modes and have alternating tournaments for original and “balanced”, to keep people going back and forth.
This video misses some points. Kindle is still hovering t3 for fog cause its harder to play aggressive due to vision. Drake losing that firepower on bombers now cant one shot andy neos on plains during super which is huge.
If they wanted to make more original changes instead of going for cartridge accuracy, I think it should be a separate thing, like an option you can toggle
As a mostly Rachel Jugger main this is good news to me. xD When I am not maining Jugger, Rachel has been surprisingly capable in most situations. I still think Jugger needs a FULL rework to not be just a Flak 2.0 xD
I'm pretty new to the competitive scene, just started taking matches on global league a few days ago. This announcement comes right after I started a GL T3 std match as Kindle vs. Drake. Guess this'll be the last match I can see those two in their original forms
Balance changes across the board will probably never happen on AWBW, but I’m hoping when Wars World comes out they’ll offer a good alternative meta for people to play with.
@@bienhy5120 I wish they would just put all version of each characters. Imagine playing a tier 4 match with AW1 Olaf (can only make snow). Tier 0 would have AW1 Max even with just one power. Would be neat.
@@jjsfifth from what I've gathered Wars World is a new open source game similar to AWBW that is in development. Mangs has made a few videos about it if you want to check it out.
I think this is the first step towards a balance patch. We needed to get closer to the cartridge so when the balance changes come, it still look very similar to the original game.
I haven't played in a long time so my opinion doesn't matter, but T2 Kindle seems dumb, especially in combination with a Drake nerf. T3 seems miserable now. It just makes Andy the clear best CO in the majority of circumstances
I like playing Kindle, but I am so damn happy Drake got nerfed. I've always hated fighting against him with his really obnoxious naval units and usable air units. Pretty happy to start using Lash more.
Lmao, I don't play Advance Wars but I would find it funny if IS just decided to tweak FE game balance after years. Basically, I find this funni to change it after so long that I'm all for it, although my opinion ain't matter much as a mere spectator of Advance Wars
No Sonja reduce opponent's defence stars? What a travesty! 2:25 FINALLY Probably the most requested change. Strange the tier change not being cited in the changelog. Also, placing her above Max? I don't know about that About the other changes: - Drake being nerfed is huge. Although he's intended to be a naval CO, it didn't matter much because air units are the most affected by fuel cut and damage. Doesn't matter 80% power if the enemy have 8 HP. - Von Bolt is correctly bottom tier, as shocking as it is. He already struggled with the other tier monsters, and now is going to be a little more difficult - Rachel, I don't know. I would guess same as Von Bolt, but let's see if is a buff or nerf - Lash is a tough call. Her daily is insane, but her powers are really awful. Kindle not being around helps tho
You know, they could've just put different versions in different tiers. Why buff or nerf, when you can have both? You can have all three balancings - AW1 Drake, AW2 Drake, DS Drake. This would've also added a viable Jess for a higher tier play. I suppose this would make it weird if this wouldn't change tier at all, and you'll have two or three Drakes in the same one, but still.
I think it's the right way for AWBW. I hope they continue to pursue cartridge accurate, and then hopefully that project you've been working on gives us a more experimental feel.
@@the42ndgecko21 WarsWorld is Femboy's project, Mangs is just giving it some spotlight and probably helping test it out a bit, he isn't involved with actual development.
Sonja is also more playable. Sonja can dominate on air maps now. Drake no chance. Lash not wants air battle. Andy is her only worry now. Sonja biggest issue was kindle too. Her match up against Lash was always fine in fog and drake was okay too. Only kindle was a problem and andy a Issue if she allows him to stall
Here's a question Mangs. Do you think that CO's that are different from 2 to DS, Sonja, Lash, Jess, should also have an appearance in AWBW? I think Sonja, for example, with her defense reduction would be a really nice buff to make her playable
Kindle in FOG is much worse because in standard you can see what units are on cities and which aren't. So in FOG your power is just a guess, when in standard her Power is just kinda insane.
@@devinbannish1469 I know, as much as I find fogs gameplay more enjoying the CO choices in tiers 2 and 3 are often such non choices. As much as kindle would be useless in tier 2 she’s kinda unhealthy in tier 3 in my opinion as a fairly mediocre player (around the 1100 level). Tier 4 and Tier 1 are where all the interesting CO choices happen in fog.
Well I didn't like the comtower being a thing in ranked match as it buff/nerf some CO and these changes don't make me happier. I'm sure Kindle will get crushed in her new tier because she can't compete against Eagle nor Max, Olaf will destroy her because if he can make it snow I doubt that you'll see her SUPER, her SUPER will mostly happen during a counter attack as most high level player who pick Max/Eagle/Olaf will tend to have a big first strike. Honestly they could just add EVERY version of the CO and "balance" them in the tier list, AW1 Andy would only have a POWER so he'll be lower in tier (or you make him clone Andy), AW1 Max will be tier 1/0. And Mangs will probably play the DS version of Jess. Imagine 3 version of Sturm in different tier: the one we have, the +20 attack and -20% defense, and the +20/20. AWBW didn't follow the cartdrige version by the book since they gave Sturm a meteor strike that deal 4HP.
@@dark_rit I know!! I actually added a GL game and got matched up with a player with 39/139 Kindle games, with the next T3 CO being Rachel at 3/139. And yes, it's a T3 game from the get go. My win rate in other tiers is about 80%. My win rate in T3 is 43% (3W-4L). Let's hope we can improve these numbers now that the tiers are balanced and player skill becomes more important than Tier imbalance.
I really hope they let players choose which edition of CO they play as. Imagine AW1 Max v AW2 Sturm. While this wouldn't be a big deal for COs like Sensei or Colin it would certainly benefit Jess.
Regarding these changes... I have only one thing to say. F. I am currently using Drake in competitive in fog and I am facing Andy. This feels like it is going to screw me over. Rip.
I thought Drake should stay strong and was the last I wanted reverted, but I never actually played the website. I wanted to start with Reboot Camp multiplayer and I lost the best time to try probably.
So to explain the weapon triangle thing, robin has swords and that means that robin beats bartre who uses axes, and bartre beats oboro who has lances and ninja stars, I'm glad to be of help to you.
I'm so confused by this. I get the idea of making them closer to their original release but surely it would make more sense to actually try and balance the COs in general. I get that is what the Tier system is for but it's a poor way to fix a game. It prevents certain COs from facing one another unless one playeris willing to play at a disadvantage.
Love the changes. Though I would not mind if they added a separate ladder where they go crazy and completely rebalance each commander and then after a year or so they rebalance it again. This way the people would have to figure out what is strong and what isn't. There would be no tier system and you could pick whatever against whichever CO.
I personally would like if they added different versions of the same character if the character got big buffs later. I'd love to see DS Jess as a playable CO.
These changes are a bit discouraging. It means that there won't be much of an effort for AWBW to have it's own independent balance changes, which they desperately need. If anything, every tier 1 CO should be nerfed and every tier 4 CO should be buffed. As for tier 0 COs, they would need some more drastic reworks.
AW newbie here, and I have to ask, why did those differences exist in the first place? I can understand Rachel and Von Bolt (that kind of targeting can be tricky to implement), and Kindle was maaaaaaaybe a misunderstanding, but where did they get the Drake changes from? That feels like too obvious a change from cartridge to be a mistake.
I still think drake copters will see a limited amount of play as in your typhoon turn they are going into 8 hp units with 80% attack assuming no comm towers. I would often spam drake copters on fog before the change as it was a great way to build unit count and have a super powerful typhoon turn. I think that tactic is now a lot less viable but not dead
I do agree, that it is a good change to move Kindle alongside the same tier with characters like Olaf. That is a W for sure. Drake was really bad with air units already, but nerfing those even further, just makes his air units not worth building in my opinion and losing out on 15% defence on naval units as well, isn't too big of a deal, but it makes naval combat in general less favorable for him. ....At that point i am questioning myself, if a naval map might be better served with a CO like Olaf, instead of Drake. This is a questionable L at best. The changes to Von Bolt and Rachel favors a more proactive aggressive playstyle and even allows for a more aggressive use. It is a W for people using them.
This feels like they're doing this so that people cant use these COs as counter arguements when team says something is the way it is due to it being cartridge accurate.
I don't see how the Drake change is more cartrideg accurate. It's Advance Wars 2 Drake rather than Advance Wars 1 Drake, and they've supposedly been sticking to a philosophy of sticking to COs as they were originally released. I don't know, this seems like an arbitrary nerf to Drake.
@@maudlife Sturm is still his Advance Wars 1 version, yes. He is now the only outlier. But considering he's tier 0 at 80% regular firepower, making him the Advance Wars 2 120% firepower would be ridiculous.
AWBW W or L?
E
W
Sidegrade
Slight W
Still think Kindle is Tier 2.5. Too good against Lash, Rachel, etc. Not good enough against Max, Olaf, and Eagle. Don't like the nerf to Drake but otherwise a W all around
Tee hee hee! I'm the queen of tier 3 now!
Grats
You're getting your time in the sun! I'm happy for you!
I and the rest of your army of simps are happy ❤
15% extra firepower on porperties (and 20% on HQ) ❤❤❤❤🎉🎉🎉🎉 ❤
@@bruhchannel1216 I believe that AWBW uses the Black Hole Rising bonuses for Lash, so that'd be 30% and 40%.
Simultaneously love and hate this.
Love, because thank goodness the team are willing to make changes and shake up the stale metagame. Kindle and Rachel also both really needed these changes.
Hate, because Von Bolt and Drake are already struggling in their tier without further nerfs, and in general the principle of these changes is completely *the opposite* of what AWBW needs. The Wars World trilogy are a 20+ year old set of games and by now we've found countless natural balance oversights that the community can address. Fidelity to the cartridge is cargo-cultish at this stage.
There is a missed opportunity to create multiple versions of COs - players can pick cartridge-accurate versions that they prefer (multiple even for older COs), as well as pick better balanced COs that compliment the online competitive scene.
Yeah, giving two modes (one accurate and one competitive) seems like a good idea.
The cruiser buff to the DS version is getting closer by the day
One can certainly hope...
That would be perfect. 95% damage subs have on everything is so cruel!!
Me, who has always played Kindle in Tier 2:
"They called me a Madman..."
Now that the seal has been broken, maybe we’ll get DS!Jess and Clone Andy added to shake up Tier 2 (Tier 1 on no airport no port maps?) and Tier 4 (respectively). Maybe also a no CO/The Beast option so they can do a tier 5 with Sonja, Grimm, Jugger, Flak, and The Beast (because nobody will play them in tier 4 standard outside of gimmick alts anyways).
DS Jess is busted though
@@LopsidedMoz That problem can be solved by putting her into the appropriate tier. No big.
@@kanrakucheese I agree. Playing around with CO’s having an “alternative versions” designed for different tiers. I for two would love to see a DS Jess take the weights off.
Sonja would be completely busted in a tier 5. She's a walking Superpower in Standard - but you shouldn't underestimate her
Mangs, I need more awbw replay comentary videos, I watched every single one of them at least twice, please.
Small note, calling kindle tier 3.5 would mean she's too weak for t3 and too strong for t4
t2 is very map dependant, so I think Kindle will fit perfectly.
Oh my god, they fucking massacred Drake.
L-Look what they did to my boy
A technical buff for Lash? Sign me up. As someone who mains Lash and Grit, I’ll take any advantage I can get, even if that advantage is not having to fight Candy lol.
the thing about drake in RBC: it's just an error in his CO Dossier, he actually has -30% air even though the dossier says it's -20%. the firepower screen does display it correctly and his fighters do 70% to a normal b-copter if you really want to test it. but RBC also mixed up hawke's power and super on his wallpaper. anyway I always felt that Kindle belongs more into tier 2 than tier 3
They should probably add the alternate versions of each CO too while they are at it (AW1 max and AWDS Jess for example) might freshen up some tiers
AW1 Max will be looking spicy in tier 0
The less I see of AWDS or people trying to use DS stuff against me, the happier I am.
@@alex_zetsu Instructions unclear, running 120/120 Sturm.
That's not at all what I read from the Rachel patch note. It says that the infantry missile now accounts for all units, with a modifier for infantry. So it targets the highest HP value, including, vehicles, with infantry HP counting double (or triple, no idea) in that calculation. Basically, if you've got a pack with 2 infantry and a pack with 1 infantry and 5 vehicles, it will go for the latter.
It goes both ways now. Rachel's own infantry also count double but in a negative way.
This is correct yeah. Previously Rachel's 1st missile would only consider footsoldiers; it would ignore a block of 13 Mega Tanks just to hit 1 Infantry because that's the only unit with any value.
Now it will consider everything, just with extra weighting for footsoldiers, so it's a lot more likely to hit a high value cluster of units with the first missile now.
@@Mangs1337right but you left out the stuff from the comment which is the much bigger change
It holds footsoldier HP as 4 times the value, this was explained in a video going over the changes, much like how Sturm's indirect Meteor holds indirects as twice their value.
I think it's a bad change but mainly because, as Mangs said, it's towards dumb cart balancing rather than away. That awbw nerfed max is proof that the devs would have balanced the COs a bit better if they have more time and experience to do so.
How did AWBW nerf max? They stuck to his aw2 version.
@@sebastianlucas704 i meant aw2
@@sebastianlucas704 I believe what inversepie6512 meant was the IS devs nerfed max, and that AWBW chose this nerfed max and that if AW continued, IS would have had more balanced CO's.
seems like they're kneecapping drake on maps he already struggled with for not a good reason
I hate the "cartridge parity" argument thrown around, because there are plenty of mechanics that are NOT present in any of the games. For instance, Cruisers should mirror the DS counter part and we still lack Sandstorm weather.
Exactly.
If "authenticity" was what they wanted it would have been so since the VERY BEGINING.
And WHY now?
-People complain?
-Traffic is down?
-Staff has change thus someone diferent makes decisions now?
@@ericquiabazza2608 IMO the site admins and devs should be more open about the balancing process. Put it to a vote of at least the part of the community that has a high enough ELO ranking to matter, or give the option to play different versions of the same CO and test it over several games before completely changing the meta.
Hey, AWBW Discord member here who's had a word or two regarding this, it's actually because the devs don't get the opportunities to discuss these changes proper with the OWNER of AWBW all that often, and it's the owner that gets the last word. If there were more discussions between them more often, then we could potentially see more frequent changes like this, but that would involve unnecessary pressure on all sides.
@@i_am_jarvistm7220 That is so stupid. Even if the owner thinks the changes are necessary, not listening to the community will just make most of the active league players gravitate towards Tiny Wars or that other never ever project of Mangs's.
@@M30W3R ... Did you not read what I said thoroughly? I said it's the LOW FREQUENCY of their discussions, not matter of having them or not. People have lives outside of their jobs and online activities, you know.
I wish they would’ve chosen the better balanced version between AW2 and DS. Still, I appreciate the attempt at cartridge balance; it gives a consistent balance philosophy if nothing else.
It's a win because Kindle/Candy got kicked into Tier 2 and now I don't need to see almost all my tier 3 matches being against her. So difficult to play against her.
I got my wish 😁. Playing against Kindle in tier 3 was miserable and now she's finally where she belongs
Mangs that picture with lash is wild dude lol.
2:35 I think you meant to say Tier 2.5.
that sounds like a mangs issue, dude is pretty bad at math. (disclaimer he might not actually be bad at math i am just making a dumb joke)
Improvement on an idea for my custom ceo:
Day-to-day:
All transports get 50% discount, +20% defense, and +2 vision
Motorised assault (4 stars):
Infantry and mech units receive +20% firepower, and they can move and attack immediately after exiting transports
Mechanised assault (8 stars): infantry and mechs receive +40% firepower, can move and attack immediately after exiting transports, and mechs receive +1 movement
Your custom CEO? You on that Grid Of Death, Divine Link infused CEO Mindset? You have the soul of an emperor.
Lash gets 30% extra firepower on cities... and Kindle gets a better version of the city bonus as well as discouraging the other player from placing things on cities. Yeah no wonder Lash vs Kindle was such a brutal matchup. I was so confused when I found out Von Bolt's super stuns his own units instead of only damaging them. Then I remembered I never finished AWDS... and I remembered I never liked that game. About the only thing I liked that came out of it was seeing people play Grimm and Jake against the older COs.
I like that the gates are open for potential changes going forward. Even if it's small stuff and only every couple years I think it's good for the health of the game to shake things up a little.
Excited to see where this ends up, in addition to Wars World, which i remember wanted to pursue a more balanced, less cartridge accurate version of the COs.
AWBW wasn't accurate to the cartridge games for that long? Woah
I cannot for life get the Drake Nerf, like, legit I cannot understand why would you nerf someone you buffed because he was that bad
They're not going out of their way to nerf him, they're just making it more accurate to the actual game. These changes probably weren't originally intended as buffs, they were just silly inaccuracies that never got fixed. Also, the changes are pretty minimal anyway.
@@jerry3115right, but then why was the inconsistency there in the first place? If they wanted to go with cartridge accuracy, they wouldn't have changed the numbers around
@@epicgamerzfail4575 the thing is they've never really cared that much about cart accuracy before now. They've known about these inconsistencies (and more) for a long time but chose not to take action for a number of reasons. After all, if awbw works fine as is, why shake things up?
@@jerry3115 But it goes against their design philosophy of making COs accurate to their originally seen version. That's why Sonja and Jess don't have their much better Dual Strike versions. This nerf is going from AW 1 Drake to AW 2 Drake. It's absolutely going out of their way to nerf him. And it's a big deal, at least the air unit nerf is.
@@maudlife you misunderstand. Every CO except sturm is based off of their aw2 versions, not their awds versions. Awds is only used for the COs exclusive to that game. And besides, the old drake wasn't accurate to aw1 anyway because drake in that game gained terrain stars, not defense.
If I had a nickel for every time Nintendo made a character named Drake that was a sailor and debuted on the GBA I’d have two nickels which isn’t a lot but it’s weird that it happened twice
LMGTFY:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Drake
Drake means duck, idiot. Nintendo has tons of games.
They should make a balanced league where all COs receive buffs and nerfs to make them all the same tier.
I think that would require a lot of subjectivity. Then again, they could keep rebalancing.
@@sigurdtheblue
Yup, it doesn't have to be only on first revision, they will have to keep suspect testing and making usage statistics analyses
I think that making such a large cast all sit at the same tier would remove nearly all identity from them because it's just simply too tall of a task to find a perfect, equivalent balance across so many different abilities.
I think with a cast this large, your best attempts at trying to equalize all of them is still going to have peaks and valleys unless we're trying to just scrap the uniqueness entirely in favor of like flat bonuses and very bland, generic COPs and SCOPs.
I think you'll likely only ever be able to crush the list down to like 3 tiers at best if you're still trying to maintain what makes each of them unique.
@@IceMaverick13
Incorrect. It's all about fine tuning. Yeah I don't think they would all be perfectly balanced but they could be balanced enough to where skilled players can make any of them work.
Like adding costs or drawbacks to certain powers, besides changing numbers around. There's no reason why Colin's power should be free, for example. Maybe it should cost defense for a turn.
There's many ways it can be done, but saying "it's impossible" is not one of them
I personally enjoy balance changes, as they can often mix things up and make things feel fresh. It may not be a bad idea to switch between a bit of tweaking and returning to original stats just to mix things up.
Perhaps they could make them separate game modes and have alternating tournaments for original and “balanced”, to keep people going back and forth.
This video misses some points. Kindle is still hovering t3 for fog cause its harder to play aggressive due to vision. Drake losing that firepower on bombers now cant one shot andy neos on plains during super which is huge.
I'm still really interested in that idea you had to pit the AI from Reboot Camp against the AI in OG Advance War 1 & 2
I certainly see a couple of buffs in the thumbnail.
If they wanted to make more original changes instead of going for cartridge accuracy, I think it should be a separate thing, like an option you can toggle
lash mains rise up !!!
Look at how they massacred my boy Drake
I would love to see videos showcasing some of these changes in action with replays!!!
As a mostly Rachel Jugger main this is good news to me. xD When I am not maining Jugger, Rachel has been surprisingly capable in most situations. I still think Jugger needs a FULL rework to not be just a Flak 2.0 xD
Goth GF buff 🎉🎉🎉🎉
I'm pretty new to the competitive scene, just started taking matches on global league a few days ago. This announcement comes right after I started a GL T3 std match as Kindle vs. Drake. Guess this'll be the last match I can see those two in their original forms
Personally, I believe Drake air are still perfectly fine.
They do the job of not dying to tanks and what more can you really ask for them?
Balance changes across the board will probably never happen on AWBW, but I’m hoping when Wars World comes out they’ll offer a good alternative meta for people to play with.
I wish they could copy tinyward / DoR system where most OG CO has 2 version of them (faithfull and balance for those needed)
This
@@bienhy5120 I wish they would just put all version of each characters. Imagine playing a tier 4 match with AW1 Olaf (can only make snow). Tier 0 would have AW1 Max even with just one power. Would be neat.
What is wars world?
@@jjsfifth from what I've gathered Wars World is a new open source game similar to AWBW that is in development. Mangs has made a few videos about it if you want to check it out.
Mangs I think u should make an awbw podcast and have different players come on etc. host it with deejus or the penguin guy idk , would be really cool
that drake nerf is pretty drastic..
DRAKE BROS NO
I think this is the first step towards a balance patch. We needed to get closer to the cartridge so when the balance changes come, it still look very similar to the original game.
I haven't played in a long time so my opinion doesn't matter, but T2 Kindle seems dumb, especially in combination with a Drake nerf. T3 seems miserable now. It just makes Andy the clear best CO in the majority of circumstances
It's nice to see that they decided to make changes, that means we could have more balancing in the future if it's needed
Kindle SCOP was far from never used. High level fog meta in large maps (Stalingrad) is that Kindle SCOP is way stronger than COP.
Got baited wiht HUGE Lash milkies :3
but stay cuz she does receive some good changes ( considering the meta games changes ).
This video came at a wild time as in the current global league match I'm in I'm a Rachel verses a Lash.
I like playing Kindle, but I am so damn happy Drake got nerfed. I've always hated fighting against him with his really obnoxious naval units and usable air units. Pretty happy to start using Lash more.
Lmao, I don't play Advance Wars but I would find it funny if IS just decided to tweak FE game balance after years.
Basically, I find this funni to change it after so long that I'm all for it, although my opinion ain't matter much as a mere spectator of Advance Wars
Awesome coverage. Very clear and concise
Kindle's SCOP used to be buffed with only cities AND HQs, just to be clear.
No Sonja reduce opponent's defence stars? What a travesty!
2:25
FINALLY
Probably the most requested change. Strange the tier change not being cited in the changelog. Also, placing her above Max? I don't know about that
About the other changes:
- Drake being nerfed is huge. Although he's intended to be a naval CO, it didn't matter much because air units are the most affected by fuel cut and damage. Doesn't matter 80% power if the enemy have 8 HP.
- Von Bolt is correctly bottom tier, as shocking as it is. He already struggled with the other tier monsters, and now is going to be a little more difficult
- Rachel, I don't know. I would guess same as Von Bolt, but let's see if is a buff or nerf
- Lash is a tough call. Her daily is insane, but her powers are really awful. Kindle not being around helps tho
You know, they could've just put different versions in different tiers. Why buff or nerf, when you can have both? You can have all three balancings - AW1 Drake, AW2 Drake, DS Drake. This would've also added a viable Jess for a higher tier play. I suppose this would make it weird if this wouldn't change tier at all, and you'll have two or three Drakes in the same one, but still.
I think it's the right way for AWBW. I hope they continue to pursue cartridge accurate, and then hopefully that project you've been working on gives us a more experimental feel.
WarsWorld is not Mangs' project.
@@ShawFujikawa I thought there was a project that he was recruiting for? Was he just advertising for wars world?
@@the42ndgecko21 WarsWorld is Femboy's project, Mangs is just giving it some spotlight and probably helping test it out a bit, he isn't involved with actual development.
I think it's important to respect the intention of the source games, but balance changes are good to encourage variety.
Sonja is also more playable. Sonja can dominate on air maps now. Drake no chance. Lash not wants air battle. Andy is her only worry now.
Sonja biggest issue was kindle too.
Her match up against Lash was always fine in fog and drake was okay too. Only kindle was a problem and andy a Issue if she allows him to stall
Here's a question Mangs. Do you think that CO's that are different from 2 to DS, Sonja, Lash, Jess, should also have an appearance in AWBW? I think Sonja, for example, with her defense reduction would be a really nice buff to make her playable
It would be cool to see co+ a buffed version of a certain co like tinywars has.
Why is kindle still fog tier 3? Why is fog tier 2 still awful Olaf mirrors constantly?
Kindle in FOG is much worse because in standard you can see what units are on cities and which aren't. So in FOG your power is just a guess, when in standard her Power is just kinda insane.
@@devinbannish1469 I know, as much as I find fogs gameplay more enjoying the CO choices in tiers 2 and 3 are often such non choices. As much as kindle would be useless in tier 2 she’s kinda unhealthy in tier 3 in my opinion as a fairly mediocre player (around the 1100 level). Tier 4 and Tier 1 are where all the interesting CO choices happen in fog.
Christmas came early, so long Kindle.
Well I didn't like the comtower being a thing in ranked match as it buff/nerf some CO and these changes don't make me happier. I'm sure Kindle will get crushed in her new tier because she can't compete against Eagle nor Max, Olaf will destroy her because if he can make it snow I doubt that you'll see her SUPER, her SUPER will mostly happen during a counter attack as most high level player who pick Max/Eagle/Olaf will tend to have a big first strike.
Honestly they could just add EVERY version of the CO and "balance" them in the tier list, AW1 Andy would only have a POWER so he'll be lower in tier (or you make him clone Andy), AW1 Max will be tier 1/0. And Mangs will probably play the DS version of Jess.
Imagine 3 version of Sturm in different tier: the one we have, the +20 attack and -20% defense, and the +20/20.
AWBW didn't follow the cartdrige version by the book since they gave Sturm a meteor strike that deal 4HP.
I think AWBW should focus in more important things like the date simulator with a story mode
I still dohnt know why Jess in AWBW is the AW2 version, not DS
Lash playable now? Maybe I'll start playing again then
Wait Kindle is Tier 2? Ok I think I'll get back to this game
Yeah I remember playing tier 3 matches and basically every time it would be wow, they picked Kindle. What a boring choice.
@@dark_rit I know!! I actually added a GL game and got matched up with a player with 39/139 Kindle games, with the next T3 CO being Rachel at 3/139. And yes, it's a T3 game from the get go. My win rate in other tiers is about 80%. My win rate in T3 is 43% (3W-4L). Let's hope we can improve these numbers now that the tiers are balanced and player skill becomes more important than Tier imbalance.
I really hope they let players choose which edition of CO they play as. Imagine AW1 Max v AW2 Sturm. While this wouldn't be a big deal for COs like Sensei or Colin it would certainly benefit Jess.
No more Kindle in tier 3 = maybe I'll actually play again. Tier 3 games were such groaners for me before.
Welcome back egg! 🐲👍
Regarding these changes... I have only one thing to say. F. I am currently using Drake in competitive in fog and I am facing Andy. This feels like it is going to screw me over. Rip.
I thought Drake should stay strong and was the last I wanted reverted, but I never actually played the website. I wanted to start with Reboot Camp multiplayer and I lost the best time to try probably.
this is the advance wars equivalent of chess getting a balance update
good changes tho
So to explain the weapon triangle thing, robin has swords and that means that robin beats bartre who uses axes, and bartre beats oboro who has lances and ninja stars, I'm glad to be of help to you.
I'm so confused by this. I get the idea of making them closer to their original release but surely it would make more sense to actually try and balance the COs in general.
I get that is what the Tier system is for but it's a poor way to fix a game. It prevents certain COs from facing one another unless one playeris willing to play at a disadvantage.
It also doesn't match Drake's original release... It's pretty arbitrary.
@@maudlifeIt's not arbitrary, it's his Advance Wars 2 release, kind of like every other CO in AWBW. Besides Sturm for some reason.
@@devinbannish1469 I want my 120/120 boy.
Love the changes. Though I would not mind if they added a separate ladder where they go crazy and completely rebalance each commander and then after a year or so they rebalance it again. This way the people would have to figure out what is strong and what isn't. There would be no tier system and you could pick whatever against whichever CO.
I dont get why lash is only tier 3, is she so much different on the web version compared to aw2?
Kindle is T2 in std not in fog.
Drake, poor dude
So why not provide real balance changes.
I mean lash could be more viable say if she can use her Co powert at 3 stars instead of 4
would be nice if they rebalance Eagle and Olaf by making them exactly like from DualStrike
Olaf gets three days of snow in ds
I almost forgot that Mangs is still around. Hasn't been making many videos lately.
I'm always glad to seemore Lash.
Good decision. Awbw should stay true to the cartridge instead of going into business for themselves
Wish they'd go the tiny wars route and add + versions of COs. Even just DS versions of COs would be great.
I dont even play advanced wars but any buffs to Lash makes me happy lol
I personally would like if they added different versions of the same character if the character got big buffs later. I'd love to see DS Jess as a playable CO.
These changes are a bit discouraging. It means that there won't be much of an effort for AWBW to have it's own independent balance changes, which they desperately need. If anything, every tier 1 CO should be nerfed and every tier 4 CO should be buffed. As for tier 0 COs, they would need some more drastic reworks.
AW newbie here, and I have to ask, why did those differences exist in the first place? I can understand Rachel and Von Bolt (that kind of targeting can be tricky to implement), and Kindle was maaaaaaaybe a misunderstanding, but where did they get the Drake changes from? That feels like too obvious a change from cartridge to be a mistake.
I still think drake copters will see a limited amount of play as in your typhoon turn they are going into 8 hp units with 80% attack assuming no comm towers. I would often spam drake copters on fog before the change as it was a great way to build unit count and have a super powerful typhoon turn. I think that tactic is now a lot less viable but not dead
I do agree, that it is a good change to move Kindle alongside the same tier with characters like Olaf. That is a W for sure.
Drake was really bad with air units already, but nerfing those even further, just makes his air units not worth building in my opinion and losing out on 15% defence on naval units as well, isn't too big of a deal, but it makes naval combat in general less favorable for him. ....At that point i am questioning myself, if a naval map might be better served with a CO like Olaf, instead of Drake. This is a questionable L at best.
The changes to Von Bolt and Rachel favors a more proactive aggressive playstyle and even allows for a more aggressive use. It is a W for people using them.
This feels like they're doing this so that people cant use these COs as counter arguements when team says something is the way it is due to it being cartridge accurate.
Maps with stealth fighter's being tough for Drake? I think you underestimate how miserable it will be to deal with fuel drain on those gas guzzlers.
I don't see how the Drake change is more cartrideg accurate. It's Advance Wars 2 Drake rather than Advance Wars 1 Drake, and they've supposedly been sticking to a philosophy of sticking to COs as they were originally released.
I don't know, this seems like an arbitrary nerf to Drake.
Maybe they secretly hate Drake lol
No, all of them are their Advance Wars 2 versions (unless they weren't in advance wars 2 obviously)
@@devinbannish1469 What about Sturm?
@@maudlife Sturm is still his Advance Wars 1 version, yes. He is now the only outlier. But considering he's tier 0 at 80% regular firepower, making him the Advance Wars 2 120% firepower would be ridiculous.
@@devinbannish1469 If he's already tier 0 and thus not played on the ladder, would it make that much of a difference?
harsh one for Drake but Kindle should have been moved to tier 2 earlier really.
And anything that can boost Lash is a good thing of course
Great video, @Mangs thanks for the summary! I also think "less Kindle is better" lol
2:36 do you mean tier 2.5 instead of 3.5?
Isnt Clone Andy identical to Andy?
I like these changes. Not so sure Kindle should be T2 now, but, hey, I guess we'll see!