The only thing about a Red Dot in my opinion is when it rains or like you said when you have debris on it your battery goes out iron sights are Superior then you also have to consider you have to have a holster to carry a Red Dot in more expense more ways to be hung up on where if you have iron sights and you get proficient with them you are much better off there's an old acronym kiss keep it simple stupid that's my opinion and like you said most gun battles are within 10 maybe 20 yards if you can't shoot it with iron sights you need to run away
0:49 nipple heads on the internet. That is so accurate dealing with the zero life experience, ultra low shooting practice and even lower skills. Zit poppers would be another accurate descriptor. They always identify themselves quickly like the kid in class that jumps up excitedly waving his arms...pick on me pick on me. Sometime I oblige them by picking on them with razor sharp wit backed with decades of experience.
With my eyesight red dots turn into vague irregular shaped thin cottonballs. On a rifle a peep sight sharpens the red dot. I do just fine at 50 yards with traditional S&W irons. The short ranges that actual defensive shootings occur I just don't see the need for a red dot. Also, I found out that green dots work MUCH better than red. Easier to see in daylight, not as blurred out to my eyes. Personally I would take the red dot money and put it into a good laser. That really opens up usability in awkward positions. Much more practical IMHO.
I had the opposite experience with red dots. I am 51yo and have been shooting iron sights since I got my first BB gun at 8yo. I got my first dot sight 2 years ago. The time it takes to get the gun on target, do the "equal height, equal light" assessment, and pull the trigger is MUCH slower than raising the gun into your field of view and "dot - bang". No focusing on the target, then focusing on the front sight, break the shot, and focus back on the target to see where you hit. I'm getting old eyes, and it takes more time to change my focus these days. With a dot you target focus, see the dot, "bang". I shoot IDPA competition and recently stopped shooting carry optics and went back to irons. I'm FAR slower with the irons than the dot. Those fractions of a second it takes to focus on the target, then the front sight, then align the sights, and fire is much slower for me.
Fair enough, my eyes do not like red dots. I get 7 dots with starbursts around each in a big dipper like pattern when I see one. On a rifle, the peep sight gives me the clarified picture you get out of a peephole and putting the front blade at the tip of the muzzle where I want my shots to go is a lot faster for me. To each their own, but my astigmatism says I like irons and magnified optics better.
im the exact opposite. i had Romeo's and Primarys Arms on many weapons. my eyes getting into my 50's with just needing readers, ive removed all my red dots and went back to irons because i seem to have issues with sight pictures not giving me enough of a field of view in low light.
@@CtrlAltRetreatIm sure you probably already know this but a 1x or 3x prism optic really helps with astigmatism my brother has a primary arms and I have a vortex. He sees alot better now.
That equal hight equal light assessment is not for defense. Defense is muscle memory and front sight and if spitting distance just muscle memory. Longer shots nice groups yeah do all that stuff. Learning? Definitely do all that.
At 59 I found the Holosun Green multi-reticle signt was a game changer for me. I took to it very well in just 200 rounds after shooting iron signts for approximately 40 years. It has drastically helped me get on target much faster as well as improved my follow up hits. I know it is a subjective choice but I haveoved to dot signts on my lever action .357, my shotgun and all my hanguns. As you stated range time is a must but that applies to any sight you choose be it iron or dot. I for one am extremely glad I took the chance because it has help me get on target & enjoy shooting even more than I did before which I didn't think was possible
I would put red dot on every lever action gun and in most shotguns. Hmm i have never seen any skeet shooter with red dot. I must try it myself and see would it make sense and be viable option.
This is an EXCELLENT video--at lest for people like me who shoot a few times a year, maybe totaling 500-600 rounds, annually. Also, since I'm mostly interested in concealed carry, I'm not looking to add something that's going to make the firearm more difficult or more complicated to conceal carry. I admire your courage in speaking so candidly about who the red dot is well suited for and who it is not well suited for. And your detractors need to remember that you are obviously not anti red dot on a wholesale basis but just pointing out why it's not for everyone. The 1 percenters are probably the best customers for red dots. Thanks for your expertise.
A message that needed to be spoken. I’m 72 and I never liked any red dot device I have tried/used in the last 10 years. If you cant use sites for 15-20 yards, you need glasses. I can out shoot most at my club, and most use a dot device. Dots have things that can malfunction, loosen, battery death, bump, bang, drop, or break the glass till its out of function. Less is better. This is the best advice most can hear. You can buy a lot of practice ammo for the price of a trustworthy plate and red dot. Use that practice ammo and learn your gun and how it shoots. Thanks for that word of wisgom Mr Hackathorn
Then you are stuck in your ways and can’t see the Forrest for the trees. Tools that make you a better shooter should be used. Just because it takes a minute to adapt is a horrible excuse. This is a kin to you should still shoot a revolver bc it’s more reliable than a semiautomatic and by god you have to change a magazine. That’s just ridiculous thinking
@@jonarnett3018Even after putting in the practice to get good at using a red dot, they provide very little, if any benefit under 10 yards. That’s facts. God for bid you ever have to use your CCW, it’s over 99% chance it’s going to be under 10 yards. For a range or competition gun, sure. There’s nothing wrong with having one on your carry gun, but you better be able to quickly find the dot 100% of the time, under stress.
I've carried for about 15 years and put a red dot on my XDM OSP. It didn't significantly improve my performance, but was cumbersome to have in my concealed holsters. I ultimately decided that I would rather have typical Trijicon HD night sights that I was used to. I won't knock red dots, they definitely help in acquisition, but nobody should feel pressured to use them or not use them. As with everything, try as many options as you can and then go with what YOU like. You want to mount a scope on top of a derringer, best of luck... You do you.
Hello Ken, I have used iron sights since I was 8 years old. Tried to make the switch to the red dot. I didn't like it at all and I must say it was not a problem to transition for me. I agree with your analysis on defensive shooting being 10 yards or less and a red dot is not going to matter. At that distance, point shoot and practice are going to be your best defense especially because things are going to happen so quicly. I would much rather rely on old school sights in self defense then red dots. Thanks for listening. Semper Fi!!!
Ever get into the channel sage dynamics? He was a red dot hater back in the day and made videos on how it’s slower than irons and worse than irons. That’s if you dig deeeep into it like 8 years. Now he has a Bible of white papers on dots and single handedly converted so many LEO departments and agencies to dot. He goes into the science on it and he is the man. I love my irons but I also love my dot. The dot is superior. We went through the same thing with carbines not 30 years ago. Everyone was anti dots and thought they were a gimmick. They have since forever changed the battlefield and people dog on Russia for not having dots on everything. These are the same for pistols. It’s a matter of the eye being evolved for first focal plane shooting not front sight focus. It’s amazing. But irons are deadly as can be and won’t under gun you. Not to mention you look cool with em like driving an old sting ray without a seatbelt. It’s sick
I've only been hunting for about 35 years and I am going back to iron sights on my rifles. I will not shoot at an animal if it is farther than I can comfortable see with the iron sights. Just personal preference.
@@Brett235 for sure to that. There’s such a sport component to hunting it’s insane. The media will have you believe it’s all poachers jumping out the truck with a dip in and taking a shot off the hood. It can be that, but it can also be archery, muzzleloader, shotgun, pistol, rifle, irons vs optics, you name it. That’s my favorite part is hunting is more of a categorical term akin to the word sports. Going muzzleloader vs 300 magnum if ur pronghorn hunting is like comparing soccer and basketball.
We are transitioning to red dot sights at my PD and it’s definitely a learning curve when your used to iron sights. I will say that with some training my groups were tighter at 20-30yds plus with the red dot. It probably took a few hundred rounds just to get used to acquiring the dot when drawing.
@@austinmurphy6359 Actually, Hackathorn addressed that and his experience and opinion was that the second you fire a live round and experience the recoil you'll lose the red dot after you fire the first live round after dry firing only. I'm convinced the red dot is best suited to shooting on a range and/or greater distance than 20 yards.
I read an article recently comparing red dots to iron sights. They did a side by side comparison with the same pistols and same ammo with the sights being the only variable. They seemed to conclude that out to 10 yds. the iron sights held its own perfectly well against the red dots. Beyond 10yds the red dots pulled away and had increasing advantage as yardage increased.
How many bump in the night confrontations are from more than 30 yards anyway? I’d like to know the real life value of each in a real life situation, but I doubt will be able to gather that kind of data
@@THESLlCK Irons are fine. However, if there was a hostage scenario I would want a red dot within 10 yards. I shoot a lot of squirrels, coyotes, etc out here and the red dot makes those shots possible. But I used to hit with irons too. The dot gives me an extra 15-20 yards of range. Lastly, I live on land, so that long shot is actually a possibility if someone was shooting at me or my family out here in the open. I like red dots, but irons have advantages at close range imo. Training is key.
@@THESLlCK you are only thinking of one engagement scenario. What about the mass shooter that’s 40 yards away? Not every encounter will be a 3 yard robbery. At 3 yards and less you are better off point shooting than using sights.
As a 58 year old one time 1% shooter I totally agree with everything you said. If I get lazy and don’t dry fire or shoot my red dot pistol at least once a week I go back to iron sights until I get my skill sets back up to par. Shooting USPSA Carry Optics really taught me how hard it was to shoot out of position like around barrels and through ports and how much easier iron sights are to do the same. Great video!!
Great vid, great wisdom and experience, and all common sense. Just removed an RMR from my VP9 and went back to iron nightlights (Trijicon). Not being a 1%er but practicing often I find the iron much quicker to acquire since that’s what I’ve always used (going on 70). Thanks
I've been shooting with iron sights for over 30 years now but I recently bought a Holosun 507 with the ACSS Vulcan reticle and am pretty pleased thus far. My eyesight has always been pretty bad; I have to wear glasses to see at distance and have astigmatism in both eyes. Without my glasses on, it's incredibly hard to find the front sight post so I've always preferred either a laser and/or tritium night sights. With that ACSS Vulcan reticle, it's super easy for me to find that red dot with or without my glasses on. I also practiced clearing my house recently and (especially at night), found that the ACSS reticle dramatically helped keep my aim true; particularly with awkward shooting angles like aiming around corners or walking up or down the stairs. It might be a fad for now. I don't know. But for me, I find the benefits greatly outweigh the cons.
That's a point that wasn't mentioned; eye glasses. I wear them too. If I have to respond to a "bump in the night" at home, I may or may not have time to get my glasses out of their case and on my face. Without my glasses, iron sights are unrecognizable.
As a cop, I honestly see less than 10% of my department being willing or able to put the time in on the red dot to become average let alone proficient. However, I have put in rounds and dry fire time, and I have seen fantastic results from the switch, much more consistent shooting coupled with the ability to focus on the threat in front of you makes a difference.
the moment I scored well on quals without looking at the sights (kind of a personal "I wonder if..."), I stopped worrying about target sights and optics. You don't need sights 90+% of the time. Look where you want to shoot, point the pistol, fire. basic eye-hand coordination. Move out past 25 yards, sights start to matter a little more, but you still can do well with only a small front blade. Before I left LE, my last sidearm was a 9x19 chambered government-style 1911 (sheriff authorized private purchase in a handful of chambers). Once it wasn't being used for work, i reamed the chamber out for 9x23 Winchester.
I really enjoy listening to both Ken and Bill. These guys know what they are talking about because they have mountains of experience, they reason, and they say what they think. It is so very refreshing. Huge thumbs up!
On a somewhat related topic, I have heard a rumor that in the past game have been successfully taken beyond 100 yards with nothing more than iron sights. Is such a feat humanly possible?
Very well presented. I enjoyed hearing your perspective on both the pros and cons. I personally consider myself more of a 5 percenter. I do train regularly, but can no longer afford to burn through 150 to 250 rounds a week. I am in the process of going to a red dot setup strictly because I can no longer see the iron sights with any reasonable clarity. I use reading glasses. They work great for reading but suck for shooting. I can either wear them and see the sights but not the targert, or vice verse. I'm hoping the dot will bring back my ability to efficiently hit targets at distance.
I'm 54 an had get glasses about 10 years ago. As a avid shooter seeing my front sight was getting to be a problem. What you need to see better is trifocal lenses. Readers are for close up(10-12inchs). Trifocal are top is distance, middle are arms distance, bottom is reading distance. The arms distance will allow you to see your sights. There are line (etched line separating the focal plane) or no line (smooth lenses, slight blur between planes). I personally prefer line as it a crisp transition. I hope this helps to keep you enjoying shooting for many years to come.
The best argument against me paying for classes for my red dot, practicing with it at the range for thousands of rounds, and carrying it every day was summed up by you here and I thank you for it. You saved me a lot of money and time. When most encounters where I God forbid need to use my EDC are within 10, 15, MAYBE 20-30 feet... red dot sight is pointless. Pretty sure that's what you said, not verbatim.
Very good information, especially after going through a recent training I truly realized how much work the transition to red dot requires after shooting my whole life with iron sights
This is the best analysis I have heard yet on this issue. I live in ND where my pistol is against my warm body and may be drawn into sub-zero air temperatures at certain times of the year. I have also noticed a lot of lint accumulating on my red dot lenses when I carry them IWB for extended periods. You validated my decision to discontinue having red dots on my CCW's. Thank you Sir!
Absolutely agree, dots are constantly getting lent in them and still adds weight and a rougher shaped gun to attempt to carry without any comfort issues.
An easy fix for both is 1. Using a closed emmitter optic, and 2. Take a dove soap bar wipe in on your optic lens and buff it in with a rag to prevent fogging.
Great video Ken!!! Awesome information to help others decide if the red dot option is right for them. I consider myself in the 1% group. After 40 plus years shooting iron sights, 30 as a cop, my eyesight got too bad to get that separation between the front and rear sights. I mounted a Holosun, dry fired for 30 days straight with it, then started shooting live and have several thousand rounds with it. For me, it was a game changer. I agree, the key is to train. Thanks again Sir and h keep speaking the truth!!
All excellent points that Ken made as I have transitioned from irons to red dots with some difficulty. As Ken points out, it can be overcome with lots of dry fire time and range sessions. I have also picked up some outstanding tips from Tactical Hyde and Sage Dynamics that have made the presentation much more efficient and natural using a red dot. The drills that they put together are nothing short of excellent (I wish that I knew about them during my transition). An interesting observation that I made is that using red dots has made me a better shooter with irons, not that I was any good to begin with, but improvement is the journey to becoming better.
i love vids like this because it upsets gen x and millenials who think red dots and other gadgets will improve their shooting. what's implied is that the people who buy red dots have no talent
@@cagneybillingsley2165 That's a bold statement. I completely understand where Ken is coming from as I'm no spring chicken, but I would not discount the Gen X and Millennials nor the use of a Red Dot. Let's recall that they were the ones that actively volunteered to join the Arm Services when there were two Gulf Wars, and they knew that they would be seeing active combat. I have a great deal of respect for the Gen X and Millennials, as some never came back alive after active service. In regards to using Red Dots, you might want to consider a class with Sage Dynamics or the Modern Summary Project. I believe that they can add to the conversation and present a different perspective than Ken's point.
@@Quality_Guru I'll toss my two cents in here about Gen-X, Millennials, and the Gen-Z sheeple that I've talked to about RDOs, and the usual response that I get is that it's absolutely necessary to have one to be a good shooter, these are also usually the same ones that have to have a 1000 lumen light on the front. Those are a completely different group from the ones that served, I work at a LGS and have talked to many ex-servicemen and women, they tend to have a more practical mindset when it comes to their firearms and it comes from real world experience. As for my opinion on RDOs in general, I tend to agree with Ken, do or don't, it's your choice.
@@wesbrown5601 I'm no expert but I suspect if you are a new or occasional shooter without years of ingrained iron sights use you don't have the neural pathways locked in. I have witnessed the the transition to using pistol optics for newbies to be much easier. I have used the tips from Tactical Hyde to convert a newbie to using red dots to the point that they have explained that it is like cheating. Once you get to used to using pistol sights it just becomes more natural to be target focus as humans have been doing so for thousands of years. I can see why they would make that point since they see it as a more natural presentation. I'm like you, I like to keep my options and training flexible.
@@wesbrown5601 what is wrong with having a bright weapons light on their firearm? Should you not take the precaution of being 100% sure of your target? You speak ill of the younger gens, yet are spewing some real fuddery. Did you seem to forget that these younger gens have been fighting a 20 year war?
Fantastic video Hackathorn! Thank you for this. I've never seen one of the "tactical bros" on RUclips be able to have an intelligent conversation about red dots that's actually grounded in reality.
we have a similar problem in the car community. people talk about how you just gotta have that automatic transmission to the point that they don't even talk about engines anymore.
I've had the feeling that the popularity of these sights has had more to do with manufacturers' marketing and guntoobers "hawking merch" that any actual advantage that the sights have over irons. Thanks for confirming my bias!😁
I have to disagree on the "0 - 10 yards no advantage" point. This may be an exception more than a rule, but it's a true counterpoint. My 80 YO dad carries a Sig P365XL. I went shooting with him over the summer and found that at 10 yards he can't hit s**t with the iron sights, even with careful aim. He wasn't even on paper. I gave him one of my guns with a green dot to try and he was hitting on target every single time. Guess what he got as an early birthday gift for his Sig. If he's going to carry, he should be able to hit something. My SWAT marksman brother agrees. You must concede that red dots (and green dots) are a wonderful thing for older eyes. I've seen the proof and am not the only one who's said as much. I don't think it's an outlier either.
I like the Leupold Deltapoint Micro on my Glock 21. It sits low on the rear sight keeping a small profile. Its small size has served well for concealed carry and duty purposes in a vehicle. The red dot aligns naturally with the iron sights so I don't have to hunt for the dot. It also has a closed emitter so it can work in all conditions. Just my go to red dot sight, but it still takes a lot of practice to be proficient with it.
Great stuff, Ken. I'm over 61 and my eyes aren't the best anymore, but I still do pretty good with my Iron Sights. I have no plans to go to an optic, but I'm opened minded enough to maybe try one down the road.
I'm 51 & my 👓 is going bad 📉. I like the concept & +s of rear optics but in 2022, the rear optics are WAY off for me, $ & design(practical) points. Maybe in 5-6yr, 2028, maybe. Now? 2023? No. For the record, I prefer to buy new "optic" plate semi auto pistols. Guns & optics will fall in line 2024 2025. Not now.
I agree with you on all points. I'm a casual shooter and iron sights are natural to me. Putting a red dot on a rifle was a very easy transition; on a pistol it is not at all easy. I have decided I like one on my Ruger 22/45 for hunting, but never on my CCW. I only carry a .40 S&W because I carry it for animal defense while hunting. For two legged enemies, I would choose 9mm because it's easier to make follow-up shots accurately.
Thoughtful presentation. Agree 100% about practice. I have two dot pistoles and was stunned when I grabbed one and the bat was dead. I really didn't believe it, so you must check your bat condition regularly.
(56 yr old) I made the choice to go with a red dot for personal carry(P365XL) about 2yrs ago. I also knew it would take considerable training to be proficient, I shoot about 3000 to 4000 rounds a year or more and have become quit good at target acquisition, rapid fire, draw fire, one hand, opposite hand, and distance, the learning curve was a little difficult at first, you need to put the time in and rounds down range necessary to become proficient and confident. It is not for everybody but I like it. At 5 to 10 yds. my Iron site range buddies and I are about the same. Going 15 plus they cant hang....
Have a xl love it. Don't want the bulk of dots. I got a second xl. I may want a dot but they are half the price of the gun. Most ccw is going to be close range. And most defence people barely use iron sites in a panic. Let alone time draw and find the dot. Natural pointing in a panic may be faster. But practice in any form helps.
This was exactly my case. I'm glad I'm not alone. 26 years of law enforcement had me front sight focused. Learning the red dot was exactly as you described. And, your are right about dry firing not helping. It took me 500 rounds to start getting synced in. I was able to accelerate the curve by taping my front lens on red dot. Now, I'm practicing acquiring dot after magazine exchanges, because it is also different. Great talk!!
LEO here as well. Came here to say, at the end of the day. If I put two identical guns (one with a dot, one with combat good irons) in front of you and said in 2 minutes a bad guy with a gun is going to come in here to get in a gunfight with you. I’m willing to bet you’d still pick up the one with good combat irons. Long story short: if it ain’t broke. Don’t fix it
@BossHog007 if it's close, I don't use sights until 10 yards or further. I've been able to point shoot since the 70's. I've also been able to shoot two guns simultaneously on police courses with perfect scores. Picking which gun isn't an issue. I'll take both.
There's also the stress factor, if you are trembling from extreme exertion or pressure can you "read" a red dot effectively if its dancing around like crazy? Okay, obviously your shooting will be impaired from that but you're now no longer "just lining up the dot over the bad guy" you're lining up the mean central position of the dot's erratic orbit over the bad guy. Under stress, iron sights may give you what's unambiguously a good enough sight picture, it's not "equal light equal height" but it's enough that you know the cone of dispersion will still be on target.
I like the concept of "what works best for you". I like the red dot on my AR, but not so much in my pistols. Old shooter set in my ways, maybe, but accuracy and comfort is important. For some reason my old eyes (57) can pick up the iron sight better than a red dot.
Love me some KH (as a matter of fact Ameriglo Hacks are my default sight), but one of the big positives is that in dry firing and even live fire (with attentiveness) the dot gives you so much more information on trigger pull and basic fundamentals. Iron sights mask sight picture wobble and bad trigger press. When you can dry fire without the dot jumping around, and in live fire when the dot goes straight up and returns to a place very close to where you were aiming, your fundamentals are sound. It is much harder to develop this with irons unless you have a good instructor and lots and lots of rounds downrange. So even if someone doesn't like it for duty/carry, it is still a valuable training tool to shorten the learning curve on basic fundamentals.
As I listen to Ken, the points I got were this: 1) there’s a little bit of a learning curve with red dot; 2) in a point-and-shoot scenario they may not present an advantage; 3) if you’re going to get one, get a good one and practice with it; 4) like any optic that relies on glass, environmental conditions can affect your immediate sight picture, a d 5) practice to become proficient. That logic is unassailable.
I agree, I have been working on getting good with a red dot sight for a while now shooting and dry fire every week. I am still faster (within 10yrds) with irons. Please do a video on how to reduce the issues with these downsides!
I agree - red dots CAN help but takes a lot of time and practice. I’m still a fan of regular sights and lasers. I shoot looking at the sights, but also practice with my lasers. Once lined up, lasers have an advantage: You have to be able to see the red dots for it to work. If you are in a defensive situation where you can’t line your gun and sight up they’re not going to help, whereas with a properly lined up laser only needs to put the dot on the target regardless of your gun positioning. Dot on target pull the trigger. Works for me. Bob Haldi
I am with you 100%, my agency went to a red dot, I tried it for a few months, but every time I qualified it reaffirmed that iron sights were faster, thus better for my purpose. Now whenever I go to the range I'm one of "those guys" who refused to adapt to change, I did not, just did not drink the Kool-Aid on red dots.
Thank you sir for setting me straight, I thought it was just me, because I shoot poorly with multiple red dots. I do fairly well with my iron sites because I've shoot thousands of rounds that way. I have a hugh learning curve to get use to my red dots. Thank you again sir great video and thank you for your expertise.
He didn’t set you straight. He isn’t capable of switching to a dot, so he fed you a list of excuses as to why you shouldn’t either and it was what you wanted to hear.
Ken’s main point: “you need to practice with a red dot optic to become good at it.” But it’s the same for iron sights: you need to practice to be good at it. And he starts the video by saying that for new shooters a red dot is quicker to learn. Most of this advice is about whether someone who is already highly proficient with iron sights should switch to a dot optic.
He came across as dogmatic to me. He said you’re on crack if you think it’s better inside of 10 yards. Just an absolute false statement. He put himself on a pedestal. Meaning if he doesn’t see better results, then no one else will. Also by insulting the viewer, he showed he unwilling to hear any arguments. He will and did just dismiss any.
Not sure if that was the internet, but perception plays a huge role. My feeling is that inside 10 yards it’s a point and shoot game, not much aiming needed. That’s how i understood what he said, but hey, That’s just My Two Cents !!!
@@thatsmytwocents4372 For me using a dot pretty much is point shooting except you are actually confirming that you are on target. Iron sights for precision requires proper sight alignment and is a more gross way of aiming due to the size of irons, more obstruction due to (for me personally) not being able to shoot with both eyes open with irons. I present the gun properly and get a clear and precise sight picture. No alignment. Just, is the dot on target then press trigger. I would love to see someone point shoot a .5” dot consistently at even 5 yards. I would not feel comfortable point shooting at someone 7+ yards away just because I can do it. We are talking about moving targets under stress. There’s a video of a guy selling air Jordan’s to someone in a parking lot. Both men had a group of friends around them. They both pulled guns on each other point blank firing multiple rounds. As far as I know no one was hit. Just stupid luck that no one did. I’m not putting faith in not aiming with precision when it matters. Again, for me personally both eyes open on a clear target and a dot on that target is better than one eye closed aligned sights on a fuzzy target. Point shooting only acceptable at maybe 6’. I’ve done bill drills sub 2 sec, so I’m more than competent.
Thank you sir. As an instructor running transition classes for LEOs who want to run dots, I agree with you in most respects. I have observed so many problems, from flying off the gun to obscured glass to the battery literally flying out of one, that the course we designed for our officers focuses more on how to shoot it broken than how to shoot it when everything is perfect. About the only place I see an advantage is the farther you get from the target, as long as they stay zeroed and I’ve seen every brand lose zero. During our last academy session, took a shot from 100 yards expecting to ring steel and was off. Rang it twice in a row with the back up iron sights. In the real world, that’s a bullet you don’t get back so hopefully the miss doesn’t hit anyone or anything it shouldn’t. I’ll train both but I’ll carry without unless I’m teaching a red dot class.
I got the opportunity to borrow a gun with a nice red dot on it recently. After years and years of shooting with iron sights, I was surprised how awkward the red dot felt to me. I can pick up a glock or a 1911 with completely different grip angles with no problem, but the red dot really messed with me. Thanks for pointing out why that is before I spent a bunch of money for the "fancy stuff".
Thank you for this discussion. I have a red dot on an AR pistol and another on a full-size SIG P320, and I like them. But none of my carry pistols have them, and the P320 is set up to co-witness with the tritium iron sights; I practice firing that one both ways. I think I'll keep being one of the "not cool kids" on my EDC pistols.
I switched due to my eye sight. Getting near sighted and I had always stuck with iron sights but after trying an RDO it really helped. I imagine it's different from person to person and how they adjust.
The thing I find dumb about this discussion is that no one talks about how u can get really good at BOTH. Not just one or the other. For a SHTF/Duty pistol seems a red dot with iron sights that cowitness is the way to go. But for EDC you’d probably be fine with just irons as your probably not gonna have to use that thing at further distances to depend yourself in public.
I’ve been shooting these for years. You are spot on that compared to irons it is more perishable if you don’t practice with the red dot. I have several identical guns, one with a red dot and one without. I find myself using the ones with irons more. I’m no spring chicken either, we’re pretty close in age.
@@definitelynotaheretic.7295but you won't, because everyone who makes this argument doesn't actually do that or seem to grasp the concept of training with your tools anyways. Get the dot and 2,000 rounds anyways. You're presumably an adult with income. Save up if you have to. You're already carrying a lethal tool you should be as proficient and accurate as possible with.
I love this video. As a relatively new concealed carrier and firearm owner, sometimes it can be overwhelming with all the gear recommendations and trends. I like the focus on simplicity. I also laughed at this description of the “cool kids”. It does seem like all of the Internet influencers carry appendix and have red dots haha. I recommend if you’re curious that you try a red dot. When I’ve tried them on handguns, I’ve been surprised at how long it took time to find the dot itself. I think in a short range defensive scenario that irons are going to be preferable for amateur firearm owners
I agree %100, I'm not that new to concealed carry but I consider my knowledge of firearms to be relatively new, I train for the reason i'm carrying, self defense, I think for me iron sights are going to be the best, 10 yards or shorter, this guy has fired more rounds than I would fire in 3 lifetimes, I have all the respect in tbe world for his opinoin.
What is being discussed is the difference between fighting with a pistol and shooting for sport. Less is more with the fighting tools. Great sound advice from a been their done that man. Thanks much Mr. Hackathon. Appreciate the option.
I have to say that I am a one percenter. I shoot weekly. I compete regularly. Recently I began preparing to shoot an IDPA match called "The Sheepdog", which requires all shooters to use compact carry guns with iron sights. I had been using a Sig 320 X5 Legion with a Sig Romeo 1 for all my matches. Coming back to iron sights for this upcoming match was difficult. After several matches and practice I am just now getting back to my previous accuracy and speed levels with iron sights that I had with the RDS. I am 70 years old and I know that I do shoot better with an RDS. But you are right, Ken. There is a learning curve and switching from iron sights to RDS or vice versa is a challenge. The best advice I can give is to pick one and stay with it.
I’m 41 been shooting my entire life. I completely agree with you. There are a lot of pluses but there are negatives too. The biggest thing for me for a negative is people don’t train enough but that’s with anything. Me personally, I have astigmatism and can’t use a red dot because they all starburst with me. I do just fine with iron sights like I always have though. So…
I can hear Ken all day long. The wisdom and authority from which he speaks based on his experience is awesome. I am a 1%er been shooting since childhood. 60 year young this year. I was at a Range Officer Class this past week, 6 guys with Red dot me and other one with iron sights. Have to tell you we did better than the red dots, our groups were tighter. the instructor even said, you guys better go check the sighting... anyway, conning myself to get a Red Dot, your wisdom sharing is invaluable. THANK YOU.
Thank you, Mr. Hackathorn for a well thought out, pros and cons sharing of your views. Marketing folks are pushing the red dot narrative. Different people will find different answers. My edc pistol is fine without a red dot. I do have a red dot on one of my range recreation pistols. Again, great video. Thanks
You are 100 percent Correct Ken. I’m an instructor and work in a gun store. The vast majority of the guys out there aren’t interested in actually learning to shoot and master the handgun. They just want the latest and greatest to be tacticool on the range.
Probably not unless it's a hand-to-hand struggle and then the optic becomes an object for your assailant to grab on to. Whatever, as much as I love improvements, I say leave them off carry pistols. Less is better. Probably not becomes probably a problem.
Always shot iron sights. Tried a red dot on a rifle. Had trouble picking up the dot, but even more I see two sets of dots or cross-hairs because of brain surgery messing with my visual cortex. A laser makes more sense to me, but only if it's on a pressure switch, and I don't think it's the magic "the bullet will hit right here." A laser has to be sighted in for a specific ammo for a specific range. It just means "you should hit around here someplace." I just don't see any big advantage for your normal concealed carry pistol. Maybe it's just me, but it seems a lot of cost and hassle mating up holsters and so on, when I don't think it's going to give me significantly better groups
The thing about extended yardage engagements is that if you needed a $400 red dot with the training to hit the 40yard or whatever shot, maybe just avoiding the engagement would be the best strategy either way. Situational awareness is the real skill we need to be safe, to be honest
Shooting in a competition like Steel Challenge and hitting a plate a 35 yards isn’t about tactical engagement. It is skill building Much like shooting Bullseye at 50’yards. While I agree situational awareness is key. Not every type shooting event isn’t about tactical. Some are building skill and accuracy just because.
I’m showing my wife the part where you said I was pretty smart. But seriously I’m out of commission right now from surgery and have been watching a lot of WC videos. Great info and wisdom. Thank you very much.
I could listen to another hour of this. I had lots of nods and smiles with knowing what he is saying is accurate- he just has a great way of saying it.
Thank you, Ken. Interesting point of view on trends. What are some of the "trends" that stayed and why do they stay? That would be a interesting video from someone like you with years of experience in the industry!
The .40 has drop off ⬇️ by a considerable amount by 2022 BUT I think it still has merit. I own 3 .40 guns. I also qual, G-security on 9x19mm, .40S&W. I'd think Ken would have a stronger argument about the "trends" of .357sig users, maybe 10mm.
The 10 mm went and now there is infatuation. The .40 is the red headed stepchild right now, but it will be back. I scooped up some .40 CZs that are on the rarer side because folks were getting rid of them. Mistake on their part, IMHO.
The trend that stays is that more criminals have guns than regular civilians. And people who've never held a gun want the civilians not to be able to own one. That trend is here forever.
This is refreshing. Im a new gun owner and been contemplating getting a red dot but personally i want to learn to use iron sights properly and become a good shooter that way - basically feel like im doing myself a disservice as a gun owner not learning how to use iron sights and going straight to red dot. Also, that is such a good point about the argument about having back up iron sights if you cannot find the red dot. The brain will continue to look for that dot. So true
When addressing the challenge of quickly locating the dot in reflex sights, the ACSS Vulcan offers an innovative solution. It features a unique large circle reticle that's normally outside your field of view but becomes visible if you're misaligned with the target. This design ensures you instantly know if you're off-target without the need to search for the dot. Moreover, if the optic fails, you won't see the reticle at all, allowing you to immediately switch to iron sights without hesitation. In my opinion, these features make the ACSS Vulcan not just a solution, but arguably the best optic choice available.
Your brain will do better under stress with standard “enhanced” concealed carry sights. I’ve been shooting a long time and none of my everyday carry arms have red dots. I do own several, but they’re all on my hunting firearms, i e my turkey shotguns, 22lr “squirrel” pistols and my night hunting hog guns (scopes with lighted dots or cross hairs) but I’d never consider “looking for a dot” in a mass shooter/self defense situation-because you’re liable for every round that comes out so you need to not have “dot tunnel vision”.
This is a little bit analogous to why younger generations take to new digital technology so quickly. If you’ve already been using iron sights for decades, it will be much more difficult to adapt to the RDS than for someone who doesn’t have thousands of hours trying to use irons. If you give a new shooter two identical handguns, one with iron sights and one with a RDS, they *will* shoot better and more easily with the optic-equipped pistol
I have also heard Modern Samurai (Jedlinski) say in a video that young people like the dot right from the start and older shooters often seem to prefer the circle or circle dot and then gradually change to just a dot.
These guys definitely created many common drills we all use. That said, this video is, sadly, fuddlore. This is a prime example of becoming "stuck in your ways."
Ken...Outstanding overview! Fair and balanced with context to all your key points. I'm "older guy" too so I went to MRDS on my Sig P365X. You nailed it! I'm decent and comfortable after maybe 800-1,000 rounds plus some dry firing, but really, with unaided vision using slide focus and natural point of aim my shots are combat effective IMHO out to 7 yards...at 10 decent. When a guy like you talks about MRDS, old guys like me listen intently!! Lots of hype out there. Thanks for sharing years and thousands of rounds worth of real experience!
I've never liked red dots on handguns until I started shooting with night vision. When using nods a red dot on your handgun is indispensable. Literally a game changer.
It would be, but then you've also radically changed the parameters of the situation, Ken even acknowledged this in his comments. But it average daylight conditions, is there really a difference?
@@wesbrown5601 there’s plenty of videos explaining the pros of a red dot. They are factually better in a lot of areas. Garand thumb, 1911 syndicate, warrior poet, colion Noir all have videos on this subject.
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They said the same thing in the 90's when Red Dots showed up on top of carry handles and here we are today...pistol dots are here too stay. 👍 BTW Ken that Holosun with the ACSS Reticle is a game changer cuts the learning curve significantly.
Oddly enough it was the carry handle that went away. The reflex optic just changed its mounting system. I run a red dot on all of my rifles, even the ones with magnified optics. Its a vastly superior backup sight to irons
@@baalzamon3593 I FINALLY went to illuminated red dot rifle scopes, just last year, probably about five years late! Had a 2x42 TruGlo red dot on my AR, but at distance, it was a joke! Just put a Burris FULLFIELD IV 2.5X10 illuminated reticle scope on it--Wow! What a difference. Its "red dot" is actually an illuminated "cross," which I happen to really LIKE. I keep all of my red dots on a lower power setting, so that they don't interfere with easy target acquisition. Old eyes don't work as well as "young" ones, at least in MY case... lol
I think you inadvertently reinforced one of his points about RDS on EDCs with the nod to the ACSS reticle. Within that typical self-defense 10 yard range the ACSS isn't bringing anything useful to the table. (Big fan of those ACSS btw and have one on my AR.)
@@xtrastrengthfukitol7733 the ACSS Vulcan isn't the same as a BDC style reticle you find in rifle optics. It's a Chevron with a giant outer circle that is completely out of view until your misaligned. It shines when dry firing to build muscle memory, so when you "Point Shoot" at self defense distances you will present the gun and line up your shot intuitively. Or you can turn off the ring and it becomes just a regular RDS.
No red dot on my self defense pistol but I do have a light laser combo hanging on the front end. Was thinking about the dot sight but old guy makes some very valid points. I'm with the old fella on this one.
The reason "old guys" do know is they can still remember! Now "real old guys" like me don't remember a lot of what they experienced. Thank God we have guys like you Ken reminding us. It a shame young guys don't realize how smart those old guys were, until they are.
I am old and able to remember pretty much everything of significance that has ever happened to me. I've had guns since I was a teenager and then went more than a decade without picking up a gun. I went to a range with a friend and found that although I wasn't able to put them through the same hole, I was quite comfortable and able to get some decent groupings which would have been tight enough to get the job done if I was involved in a "bump in the night" incident. It wasn't as much any retained muscle memory as it was mentally focusing on what I wanted to do and then being able to execute it at a respectable level. Sort of like the riding a bike saying I guess. The part about anyone listening to an old guy anymore is due in part to our culture not valuimg wisdom gained from lifes' experiences, which I just realize is the way it is so go ahead and burn your hand on the hot stove if that's what makes you feel better, everyone to their own.
Under the stress of a firefight most people are going to threat focus. I don't care how much range time you've put in with irons, when there's a dude trying to take your life you are going to be focused on him. Red dots work with our instincts and for that reason, i'm in.
Excellent video. I'm 72 years old and not long ago obtained my first red dot sight. Two things which were covered in this video that I rarely hear people talk about but that I wholeheartedly agree with are the learning curve and the questionable need for a red dot on an EDC pistol. I have about 600 rounds through my RDS equipped Canik and have only recently started to enjoy using it. I had a lot of trouble acquiring and keeping the dot after recoil when shooting quickly. Also, knowing that the majority of self defense encounters are within 10 yards, at those distances I don't want my eyes trained to be looking for the dot when acquiring only the front iron sight or point shooting would in my estimation be more intuitive and much faster.
The same people that talk trash about not using a red dot are the same people telling lies about carrying a full size Glock 34 with a red dot and a Lazer and flash light as an EDC.
I’m actually transitioning some of my pistols back to irons. I bought into the modern trends for the past few years and have decided I like to keep it simple, especially for EDC. There’s something magical about a full size frame in a leather holster. It just plain works.
Same I still run a dot on fun guns but it's unrealistic and an inconvenience on my edc. I started practicing with no sights and found I could easily dump a mag into center mass at 15y with no sights Which is the more realistic scenario in self defense which usually happens in milliseconds at less than 7y
I could not agree more, thank you for saying this. There is nothing “Fudd” about an edc with irons. Like you, I ended up removing my red dot from my edc for a myriad of reasons. I just practice a lot more with it now. I still love red dots on my full-size pistols.
@@RockinRack I’m with you except for the “usually” thing. I get it, all we have is stats, but they don’t tell you anything about what YOUR potential defensive shooting might look like. The Eli Dickens shooting may not be “typical” but it still happened. Several people owe their lives to the fact that Eli did not have the mentality that he should only train and gear up for an incident within 15 yards. We can neither choose the time nor the place.
I love iron sights being low profile. I have fired guns with red dots and i agree it is easier to shoot, but i don't like to make my subcompact bigger because of the enormous size of the sights.
problem is like that guy on active shooter he likes to say see I have a this expensive I believe is an H&K upgraded grip and primo optics and is his carry how many people have 3 to 5 grand on a pistol to spend these are the people who get everyone hyped on optics could be wrong have not heard anyone saying my life got saved cause I had an optic on the pistol if you want one fine but there not a miracle device
Ken hit the nail on the head for me. During a live-fire training exercise recently, I used my P365X with a red dot. The sky was clouded over, so my dot was visible to my satisfaction. Right in the middle of an exercise, the clouds parted and that bright hot Texas sun made the dot disappear. My old brain that was with me through the previous months of red dot training could not quickly make the transition back to the iron sights. I could have kicked myself for dropping so many points due to that issue.
Instinctive shooting needs to be taught more. On the worst day of your life it's almost certainly going to be more important than the red dot or your iron sights. The case of the young guy recently ending a mass shooter at 40 yards or whatever is a major outlier even for law enforcement. And you should be making those shots with irons anyhow.
@@Racer88, admittedly, yes. It was the Sig Romeo. Upon returning home from that training class, I ordered a Holosun. Much easier to ratchet the brightness up or down.
I glad to hear this; I've been shooting iron sighted 1911's 45 since the 80's. If I still handgun hunted maybe... Keep up the great job Ken ! Stay Strong and Be Safe !!
I’m new to sidearms and I really appreciate your opinion. I’m old enough to know when starting anything you, you end up spending tons of money on things you regret later. Much respect.
I have coached relatively few shooters, but seeing the improvement on the timer and the target with just a switch from irons to a red dot has been undeniable. People that want the quickest way to be able to safely hit their target with minimal training can easily see the value of a red dot and they will honestly be the ones to fund them, not the 1% that shoot 20k+ rounds a year, compete, go to courses and train to high performance.
@revseanchan I agree, my comment was specifically addressing the "re-training" theme that was in the video. It's easier to communicate what is happening with a new shooter that uses a red dot and that will lead to better performance with fewer rounds.
@@southernpartisan1772 I mean a lot of the time when you ask why they don't like something new their response is "well x was good enough for me, so there's no reason anybody would need y".
In my agency (10,000 sworn), maybe 300 are qualified and certified to carry red dots. Our best shooters. I'm one of them. I train a lot, and I perform much better with a dot on my duty weapon. I refuse to carry guns without dots now. I think they're truly the future. Rubber grips and laser sights didn't go out of fashion, they evolved into stippling/aggressive patterning and red dots. edit: While Ken has an extensive history of teaching high level law enforcement and military SMUs, I think he's missing one of the most valuable benefits of the pistol mounted optic which is target assessment and reassessment. Since you’re target-focused, you can simply put the dot on top of the target and evaluate their behavior (rather than worry about rear sight, front sight, and target).
What is good is that you, through experimentation, have found out what works for you. You have done what Ken had done. He experimented, analyzed his experiences, and expressed his findings. What amazes me is that he is accepting of RDSs, considering that he has probably drawn from holster and acquired a sight picture with iron sights for more than a million times.
@@johnreacher3756 Very true! For the most part, I agree with Ken. I just think that pistol mounted optics (PMO) are definitely the future. They will likely evolve, but I think any legit shooter that trains with it will see huge benefits to PMOs, especially in law enforcement and military special operations. I'll make an edit to my original post to elaborate.
@Brock Hampton as you said, you are in the top 3% of your agency. You are an elite shooter. You are also in law enforcement, which means that you may actually un-holster you fire arm a couple of times a year. For the rest of us civilians carrying arms for self defense, the probability of pulling out our gun in a defensive situation (legally, that is) is less than 1% in our lifetime. So the point is that red dots are over hyped and arguably unnecessary for the mere mortals like myself who probably will never have to pull a gun on someone and asses and reasses the situation in fractions of a second before I decided that I have to pull the trigger to save my life or that of friends and family. That being said, I like red dots, they look cool. And TBH that’s the reason why I got one and why I buy all the gadgets, because they are cool.
@@MrGuisda I unholster my firearm to clear buildings and detain suspects at gunpoint at least a multiple times per week, if not multiple times day. So yes, I have an elevated necessity of a red dot, but my experience has shown me how beneficial it is. I get that it's not for everyone, but if you carry a gun, you open yourself to a bunch of civil and criminal scrutiny if you use it. The investment which enhancing your ability to make a sound decision and an accurate hit in the event that you shoot someone is well worth it in my opinion.
I prefer iron sights. However, as my eyes age, I find it harder to focus on them. I've been adding red/green dot reflex sights to a number of handguns along with suppressor height sights so I can co-witness. I recently added reflex sights to a couple of Glock G40s which I use almost exclusively for hunting and honestly improved my accuracy at long range significantly.
I appreciate your point of view. I'm a new shooter and from day one I've had a red (green) dot, so I'm used to it. You're right though, it offers no advantage for close-range shooting or even home defense unless for some reason you're lying in wait for someone who's in the process of busting a window or door. That's where it can be useful, even in the dark (theoretically). Either way, I'm glad they exist.
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Don't forget the standard practice of 'pinning' your comment so it appears at the top and everyone can see it.
The only thing about a Red Dot in my opinion is when it rains or like you said when you have debris on it your battery goes out iron sights are Superior then you also have to consider you have to have a holster to carry a Red Dot in more expense more ways to be hung up on where if you have iron sights and you get proficient with them you are much better off there's an old acronym kiss keep it simple stupid that's my opinion and like you said most gun battles are within 10 maybe 20 yards if you can't shoot it with iron sights you need to run away
IRON SIGHTS ON ALL MY PISTOLS!
0:49 nipple heads on the internet. That is so accurate dealing with the zero life experience, ultra low shooting practice and even lower skills. Zit poppers would be another accurate descriptor. They always identify themselves quickly like the kid in class that jumps up excitedly waving his arms...pick on me pick on me. Sometime I oblige them by picking on them with razor sharp wit backed with decades of experience.
With my eyesight red dots turn into vague irregular shaped thin cottonballs. On a rifle a peep sight sharpens the red dot. I do just fine at 50 yards with traditional S&W irons. The short ranges that actual defensive shootings occur I just don't see the need for a red dot. Also, I found out that green dots work MUCH better than red. Easier to see in daylight, not as blurred out to my eyes. Personally I would take the red dot money and put it into a good laser. That really opens up usability in awkward positions. Much more practical IMHO.
Very thorough explanation. This cleared up a lot of questions for me. Thank you!
Finally! Someone giving a mature and realistic assessment of red dot sights on self defense pistols!
I had the opposite experience with red dots. I am 51yo and have been shooting iron sights since I got my first BB gun at 8yo. I got my first dot sight 2 years ago. The time it takes to get the gun on target, do the "equal height, equal light" assessment, and pull the trigger is MUCH slower than raising the gun into your field of view and "dot - bang". No focusing on the target, then focusing on the front sight, break the shot, and focus back on the target to see where you hit. I'm getting old eyes, and it takes more time to change my focus these days. With a dot you target focus, see the dot, "bang". I shoot IDPA competition and recently stopped shooting carry optics and went back to irons. I'm FAR slower with the irons than the dot. Those fractions of a second it takes to focus on the target, then the front sight, then align the sights, and fire is much slower for me.
Fair enough, my eyes do not like red dots. I get 7 dots with starbursts around each in a big dipper like pattern when I see one. On a rifle, the peep sight gives me the clarified picture you get out of a peephole and putting the front blade at the tip of the muzzle where I want my shots to go is a lot faster for me. To each their own, but my astigmatism says I like irons and magnified optics better.
im the exact opposite. i had Romeo's and Primarys Arms on many weapons. my eyes getting into my 50's with just needing readers, ive removed all my red dots and went back to irons because i seem to have issues with sight pictures not giving me enough of a field of view in low light.
@@CtrlAltRetreatIm sure you probably already know this but a 1x or 3x prism optic really helps with astigmatism my brother has a primary arms and I have a vortex. He sees alot better now.
You're essentially referring to your eyes adjusting to different focal planes. I agree....that's one advantage of the red dot.
That equal hight equal light assessment is not for defense. Defense is muscle memory and front sight and if spitting distance just muscle memory. Longer shots nice groups yeah do all that stuff. Learning? Definitely do all that.
At 59 I found the Holosun Green multi-reticle signt was a game changer for me. I took to it very well in just 200 rounds after shooting iron signts for approximately 40 years. It has drastically helped me get on target much faster as well as improved my follow up hits. I know it is a subjective choice but I haveoved to dot signts on my lever action .357, my shotgun and all my hanguns. As you stated range time is a must but that applies to any sight you choose be it iron or dot. I for one am extremely glad I took the chance because it has help me get on target & enjoy shooting even more than I did before which I didn't think was possible
I would put red dot on every lever action gun and in most shotguns. Hmm i have never seen any skeet shooter with red dot. I must try it myself and see would it make sense and be viable option.
This is an EXCELLENT video--at lest for people like me who shoot a few times a year, maybe totaling 500-600 rounds, annually. Also, since I'm mostly interested in concealed carry, I'm not looking to add something that's going to make the firearm more difficult or more complicated to conceal carry. I admire your courage in speaking so candidly about who the red dot is well suited for and who it is not well suited for. And your detractors need to remember that you are obviously not anti red dot on a wholesale basis but just pointing out why it's not for everyone. The 1 percenters are probably the best customers for red dots. Thanks for your expertise.
A message that needed to be spoken. I’m 72 and I never liked any red dot device I have tried/used in the last 10 years. If you cant use sites for 15-20 yards, you need glasses. I can out shoot most at my club, and most use a dot device. Dots have things that can malfunction, loosen, battery death, bump, bang, drop, or break the glass till its out of function. Less is better. This is the best advice most can hear. You can buy a lot of practice ammo for the price of a trustworthy plate and red dot. Use that practice ammo and learn your gun and how it shoots. Thanks for that word of wisgom Mr Hackathorn
Get in the box grandpa. The future is now and some urban youth is gunna get ya with the d dots
He's spot on about new and older shooters. Hickok45 rarely uses optics. The brain is a great thing, when you use it.
Great observations! The red dot sight also adds unnecessary bulk!
This channel like the guns it produces is gold.
Former LEO, Firearm Instructor, Gunsmith and Master Class shooter. Every single thing that Ken said is absolutely, positively 200% true. Period.
Then you are stuck in your ways and can’t see the Forrest for the trees. Tools that make you a better shooter should be used. Just because it takes a minute to adapt is a horrible excuse. This is a kin to you should still shoot a revolver bc it’s more reliable than a semiautomatic and by god you have to change a magazine. That’s just ridiculous thinking
@@jonarnett3018Even after putting in the practice to get good at using a red dot, they provide very little, if any benefit under 10 yards. That’s facts. God for bid you ever have to use your CCW, it’s over 99% chance it’s going to be under 10 yards. For a range or competition gun, sure. There’s nothing wrong with having one on your carry gun, but you better be able to quickly find the dot 100% of the time, under stress.
I've carried for about 15 years and put a red dot on my XDM OSP. It didn't significantly improve my performance, but was cumbersome to have in my concealed holsters. I ultimately decided that I would rather have typical Trijicon HD night sights that I was used to.
I won't knock red dots, they definitely help in acquisition, but nobody should feel pressured to use them or not use them. As with everything, try as many options as you can and then go with what YOU like. You want to mount a scope on top of a derringer, best of luck... You do you.
Trijicons are excellent.
Hello Ken,
I have used iron sights since I was 8 years old. Tried to make the switch to the red dot. I didn't like it at all and I must say it was not a problem to transition for me. I agree with your analysis on defensive shooting being 10 yards or less and a red dot is not going to matter. At that distance, point shoot and practice are going to be your best defense especially because things are going to happen so quicly. I would much rather rely on old school sights in self defense then red dots. Thanks for listening. Semper Fi!!!
Very good information. After shooting iron sights for 50 years it’s tuff to switch just to “keep up with the times”.
Ever get into the channel sage dynamics? He was a red dot hater back in the day and made videos on how it’s slower than irons and worse than irons. That’s if you dig deeeep into it like 8 years. Now he has a Bible of white papers on dots and single handedly converted so many LEO departments and agencies to dot. He goes into the science on it and he is the man. I love my irons but I also love my dot. The dot is superior. We went through the same thing with carbines not 30 years ago. Everyone was anti dots and thought they were a gimmick. They have since forever changed the battlefield and people dog on Russia for not having dots on everything. These are the same for pistols. It’s a matter of the eye being evolved for first focal plane shooting not front sight focus. It’s amazing. But irons are deadly as can be and won’t under gun you. Not to mention you look cool with em like driving an old sting ray without a seatbelt. It’s sick
I've only been hunting for about 35 years and I am going back to iron sights on my rifles. I will not shoot at an animal if it is farther than I can comfortable see with the iron sights. Just personal preference.
@@Brett235 for sure to that. There’s such a sport component to hunting it’s insane. The media will have you believe it’s all poachers jumping out the truck with a dip in and taking a shot off the hood. It can be that, but it can also be archery, muzzleloader, shotgun, pistol, rifle, irons vs optics, you name it. That’s my favorite part is hunting is more of a categorical term akin to the word sports. Going muzzleloader vs 300 magnum if ur pronghorn hunting is like comparing soccer and basketball.
We are transitioning to red dot sights at my PD and it’s definitely a learning curve when your used to iron sights. I will say that with some training my groups were tighter at 20-30yds plus with the red dot. It probably took a few hundred rounds just to get used to acquiring the dot when drawing.
Or you can learn how to aquire the red dot through dry fire. Seems cheaper. Took all of 10 minutes lol
@@austinmurphy6359 Actually, Hackathorn addressed that and his experience and opinion was that the second you fire a live round and experience the recoil you'll lose the red dot after you fire the first live round after dry firing only. I'm convinced the red dot is best suited to shooting on a range and/or greater distance than 20 yards.
I read an article recently comparing red dots to iron sights. They did a side by side comparison with the same pistols and same ammo with the sights being the only variable. They seemed to conclude that out to 10 yds. the iron sights held its own perfectly well against the red dots. Beyond 10yds the red dots pulled away and had increasing advantage as yardage increased.
How many bump in the night confrontations are from more than 30 yards anyway? I’d like to know the real life value of each in a real life situation, but I doubt will be able to gather that kind of data
That’s what I have found with mine.
red dots struggle to keep up with irons sub 10. And the situation reverses the further you get out.
@@THESLlCK Irons are fine. However, if there was a hostage scenario I would want a red dot within 10 yards.
I shoot a lot of squirrels, coyotes, etc out here and the red dot makes those shots possible. But I used to hit with irons too. The dot gives me an extra 15-20 yards of range.
Lastly, I live on land, so that long shot is actually a possibility if someone was shooting at me or my family out here in the open.
I like red dots, but irons have advantages at close range imo. Training is key.
@@THESLlCK you are only thinking of one engagement scenario. What about the mass shooter that’s 40 yards away? Not every encounter will be a 3 yard robbery. At 3 yards and less you are better off point shooting than using sights.
As a 58 year old one time 1% shooter I totally agree with everything you said. If I get lazy and don’t dry fire or shoot my red dot pistol at least once a week I go back to iron sights until I get my skill sets back up to par.
Shooting USPSA Carry Optics really taught me how hard it was to shoot out of position like around barrels and through ports and how much easier iron sights are to do the same. Great video!!
Great vid, great wisdom and experience, and all common sense. Just removed an RMR from my VP9 and went back to iron nightlights (Trijicon). Not being a 1%er but practicing often I find the iron much quicker to acquire since that’s what I’ve always used (going on 70). Thanks
Right on
Same here. Just more comfortable with iron sights. 43 years with iron sights I’m fine without a red dot on a pistol. My rifles I do like them
I've been shooting with iron sights for over 30 years now but I recently bought a Holosun 507 with the ACSS Vulcan reticle and am pretty pleased thus far. My eyesight has always been pretty bad; I have to wear glasses to see at distance and have astigmatism in both eyes. Without my glasses on, it's incredibly hard to find the front sight post so I've always preferred either a laser and/or tritium night sights. With that ACSS Vulcan reticle, it's super easy for me to find that red dot with or without my glasses on. I also practiced clearing my house recently and (especially at night), found that the ACSS reticle dramatically helped keep my aim true; particularly with awkward shooting angles like aiming around corners or walking up or down the stairs. It might be a fad for now. I don't know. But for me, I find the benefits greatly outweigh the cons.
That's a point that wasn't mentioned; eye glasses. I wear them too. If I have to respond to a "bump in the night" at home, I may or may not have time to get my glasses out of their case and on my face. Without my glasses, iron sights are unrecognizable.
As a cop, I honestly see less than 10% of my department being willing or able to put the time in on the red dot to become average let alone proficient. However, I have put in rounds and dry fire time, and I have seen fantastic results from the switch, much more consistent shooting coupled with the ability to focus on the threat in front of you makes a difference.
the moment I scored well on quals without looking at the sights (kind of a personal "I wonder if..."), I stopped worrying about target sights and optics. You don't need sights 90+% of the time. Look where you want to shoot, point the pistol, fire. basic eye-hand coordination. Move out past 25 yards, sights start to matter a little more, but you still can do well with only a small front blade. Before I left LE, my last sidearm was a 9x19 chambered government-style 1911 (sheriff authorized private purchase in a handful of chambers). Once it wasn't being used for work, i reamed the chamber out for 9x23 Winchester.
Cops have a 15% hit rate with irons anyway so you can't get much worse LOL
@@wildrangeringreen your "quals" are equal to placing a mirror to your mouth and fogging it up.
@@jessegpresley field expedient cleaning? makes sense.
Red dot is without a doubt superior but at the end of the day we all need to do what’s best for our preferences.
Saying a Wilson shooter doesn’t know his stuff is foolish. Great explanation of what works and when you want it to work. Thanks.
I really enjoy listening to both Ken and Bill. These guys know what they are talking about because they have mountains of experience, they reason, and they say what they think. It is so very refreshing. Huge thumbs up!
On a somewhat related topic, I have heard a rumor that in the past game have been successfully taken beyond 100 yards with nothing more than iron sights. Is such a feat humanly possible?
Yeah it's crazy! I even hit things at 500 meters with a black powder 45-70 and iron sights! I must be super human!
@@66smithra Indeed you must. Does the cape help?
Guess it's all in what one is accustomed to shooting with or without
The US Army rifle qualification course is from 50 to 300 meters. Iron sights were all we had until the last decade or so.
Only as a tictok stunt. But in real life- no way. Cant be done.
Very well presented. I enjoyed hearing your perspective on both the pros and cons. I personally consider myself more of a 5 percenter. I do train regularly, but can no longer afford to burn through 150 to 250 rounds a week. I am in the process of going to a red dot setup strictly because I can no longer see the iron sights with any reasonable clarity. I use reading glasses. They work great for reading but suck for shooting. I can either wear them and see the sights but not the targert, or vice verse. I'm hoping the dot will bring back my ability to efficiently hit targets at distance.
I'm 54 an had get glasses about 10 years ago. As a avid shooter seeing my front sight was getting to be a problem. What you need to see better is trifocal lenses. Readers are for close up(10-12inchs). Trifocal are top is distance, middle are arms distance, bottom is reading distance. The arms distance will allow you to see your sights. There are line (etched line separating the focal plane) or no line (smooth lenses, slight blur between planes). I personally prefer line as it a crisp transition. I hope this helps to keep you enjoying shooting for many years to come.
The best argument against me paying for classes for my red dot, practicing with it at the range for thousands of rounds, and carrying it every day was summed up by you here and I thank you for it. You saved me a lot of money and time.
When most encounters where I God forbid need to use my EDC are within 10, 15, MAYBE 20-30 feet... red dot sight is pointless. Pretty sure that's what you said, not verbatim.
Very good information, especially after going through a recent training I truly realized how much work the transition to red dot requires after shooting my whole life with iron sights
An excellent overall treatment Ken; thank you!
This is the best analysis I have heard yet on this issue. I live in ND where my pistol is against my warm body and may be drawn into sub-zero air temperatures at certain times of the year. I have also noticed a lot of lint accumulating on my red dot lenses when I carry them IWB for extended periods. You validated my decision to discontinue having red dots on my CCW's. Thank you Sir!
Absolutely agree, dots are constantly getting lent in them and still adds weight and a rougher shaped gun to attempt to carry without any comfort issues.
That issue can very easily be solved with closed emitter red dots like the holosun 509, eps, aimpoint acro, and Steiner red dots.
@@ShitboxFlyer exactly
An easy fix for both is 1. Using a closed emmitter optic, and 2. Take a dove soap bar wipe in on your optic lens and buff it in with a rag to prevent fogging.
Thank You sir for being a voice of reason, red dots have a place on pistols and one place only competition that's it.
Yep. They fall under the category of “toy” as far as I’m concerned.
Great video Ken!!! Awesome information to help others decide if the red dot option is right for them. I consider myself in the 1% group. After 40 plus years shooting iron sights, 30 as a cop, my eyesight got too bad to get that separation between the front and rear sights. I mounted a Holosun, dry fired for 30 days straight with it, then started shooting live and have several thousand rounds with it. For me, it was a game changer. I agree, the key is to train. Thanks again Sir and h keep speaking the truth!!
All excellent points that Ken made as I have transitioned from irons to red dots with some difficulty. As Ken points out, it can be overcome with lots of dry fire time and range sessions. I have also picked up some outstanding tips from Tactical Hyde and Sage Dynamics that have made the presentation much more efficient and natural using a red dot. The drills that they put together are nothing short of excellent (I wish that I knew about them during my transition). An interesting observation that I made is that using red dots has made me a better shooter with irons, not that I was any good to begin with, but improvement is the journey to becoming better.
i love vids like this because it upsets gen x and millenials who think red dots and other gadgets will improve their shooting. what's implied is that the people who buy red dots have no talent
@@cagneybillingsley2165 That's a bold statement. I completely understand where Ken is coming from as I'm no spring chicken, but I would not discount the Gen X and Millennials nor the use of a Red Dot. Let's recall that they were the ones that actively volunteered to join the Arm Services when there were two Gulf Wars, and they knew that they would be seeing active combat. I have a great deal of respect for the Gen X and Millennials, as some never came back alive after active service. In regards to using Red Dots, you might want to consider a class with Sage Dynamics or the Modern Summary Project. I believe that they can add to the conversation and present a different perspective than Ken's point.
@@Quality_Guru I'll toss my two cents in here about Gen-X, Millennials, and the Gen-Z sheeple that I've talked to about RDOs, and the usual response that I get is that it's absolutely necessary to have one to be a good shooter, these are also usually the same ones that have to have a 1000 lumen light on the front. Those are a completely different group from the ones that served, I work at a LGS and have talked to many ex-servicemen and women, they tend to have a more practical mindset when it comes to their firearms and it comes from real world experience. As for my opinion on RDOs in general, I tend to agree with Ken, do or don't, it's your choice.
@@wesbrown5601 I'm no expert but I suspect if you are a new or occasional shooter without years of ingrained iron sights use you don't have the neural pathways locked in. I have witnessed the the transition to using pistol optics for newbies to be much easier. I have used the tips from Tactical Hyde to convert a newbie to using red dots to the point that they have explained that it is like cheating. Once you get to used to using pistol sights it just becomes more natural to be target focus as humans have been doing so for thousands of years. I can see why they would make that point since they see it as a more natural presentation. I'm like you, I like to keep my options and training flexible.
@@wesbrown5601 what is wrong with having a bright weapons light on their firearm? Should you not take the precaution of being 100% sure of your target?
You speak ill of the younger gens, yet are spewing some real fuddery. Did you seem to forget that these younger gens have been fighting a 20 year war?
Fantastic video Hackathorn! Thank you for this. I've never seen one of the "tactical bros" on RUclips be able to have an intelligent conversation about red dots that's actually grounded in reality.
we have a similar problem in the car community. people talk about how you just gotta have that automatic transmission to the point that they don't even talk about engines anymore.
I've had the feeling that the popularity of these sights has had more to do with manufacturers' marketing and guntoobers "hawking merch" that any actual advantage that the sights have over irons.
Thanks for confirming my bias!😁
I have to disagree on the "0 - 10 yards no advantage" point. This may be an exception more than a rule, but it's a true counterpoint. My 80 YO dad carries a Sig P365XL. I went shooting with him over the summer and found that at 10 yards he can't hit s**t with the iron sights, even with careful aim. He wasn't even on paper. I gave him one of my guns with a green dot to try and he was hitting on target every single time. Guess what he got as an early birthday gift for his Sig. If he's going to carry, he should be able to hit something. My SWAT marksman brother agrees.
You must concede that red dots (and green dots) are a wonderful thing for older eyes. I've seen the proof and am not the only one who's said as much. I don't think it's an outlier either.
I like the Leupold Deltapoint Micro on my Glock 21. It sits low on the rear sight keeping a small profile. Its small size has served well for concealed carry and duty purposes in a vehicle. The red dot aligns naturally with the iron sights so I don't have to hunt for the dot. It also has a closed emitter so it can work in all conditions. Just my go to red dot sight, but it still takes a lot of practice to be proficient with it.
Great stuff, Ken. I'm over 61 and my eyes aren't the best anymore, but I still do pretty good with my Iron Sights.
I have no plans to go to an optic, but I'm opened minded enough to maybe try one down the road.
Shit yea...59 and have old mil surps... no optics on any.... I have zero interest in putting an eye comdon and any of my pistols...
The best reasoning I ever saw online about red dot , 100% true .
I just recently got into red dots after 15 years, and for me it helps. Faster acquisition and follow ups. I can say that my shooting has improved.
I'm 51 & my 👓 is going bad 📉. I like the concept & +s of rear optics but in 2022, the rear optics are WAY off for me, $ & design(practical) points. Maybe in 5-6yr, 2028, maybe. Now? 2023? No. For the record, I prefer to buy new "optic" plate semi auto pistols. Guns & optics will fall in line 2024 2025. Not now.
I agree with you on all points. I'm a casual shooter and iron sights are natural to me. Putting a red dot on a rifle was a very easy transition; on a pistol it is not at all easy. I have decided I like one on my Ruger 22/45 for hunting, but never on my CCW. I only carry a .40 S&W because I carry it for animal defense while hunting. For two legged enemies, I would choose 9mm because it's easier to make follow-up shots accurately.
Thoughtful presentation. Agree 100% about practice. I have two dot pistoles and was stunned when I grabbed one and the bat was dead. I really didn't believe it, so you must check your bat condition regularly.
You may want to look into shake awake red dot. I am forgetful and its forgiving.
(56 yr old) I made the choice to go with a red dot for personal carry(P365XL) about 2yrs ago.
I also knew it would take considerable training to be proficient, I shoot about 3000 to 4000 rounds a year or more and have become quit good at target acquisition, rapid fire, draw fire, one hand, opposite hand, and distance, the learning curve was a little difficult at first, you need to put the time in and rounds down range necessary to become proficient and confident. It is not for everybody but I like it.
At 5 to 10 yds. my Iron site range buddies and I are about the same. Going 15 plus they cant hang....
Have a xl love it. Don't want the bulk of dots. I got a second xl. I may want a dot but they are half the price of the gun. Most ccw is going to be close range. And most defence people barely use iron sites in a panic. Let alone time draw and find the dot. Natural pointing in a panic may be faster. But practice in any form helps.
This was exactly my case. I'm glad I'm not alone. 26 years of law enforcement had me front sight focused. Learning the red dot was exactly as you described. And, your are right about dry firing not helping. It took me 500 rounds to start getting synced in. I was able to accelerate the curve by taping my front lens on red dot. Now, I'm practicing acquiring dot after magazine exchanges, because it is also different. Great talk!!
LEO here as well. Came here to say, at the end of the day. If I put two identical guns (one with a dot, one with combat good irons) in front of you and said in 2 minutes a bad guy with a gun is going to come in here to get in a gunfight with you. I’m willing to bet you’d still pick up the one with good combat irons.
Long story short: if it ain’t broke. Don’t fix it
@BossHog007 if it's close, I don't use sights until 10 yards or further. I've been able to point shoot since the 70's. I've also been able to shoot two guns simultaneously on police courses with perfect scores. Picking which gun isn't an issue. I'll take both.
There's also the stress factor, if you are trembling from extreme exertion or pressure can you "read" a red dot effectively if its dancing around like crazy? Okay, obviously your shooting will be impaired from that but you're now no longer "just lining up the dot over the bad guy" you're lining up the mean central position of the dot's erratic orbit over the bad guy.
Under stress, iron sights may give you what's unambiguously a good enough sight picture, it's not "equal light equal height" but it's enough that you know the cone of dispersion will still be on target.
I like the concept of "what works best for you". I like the red dot on my AR, but not so much in my pistols. Old shooter set in my ways, maybe, but accuracy and comfort is important. For some reason my old eyes (57) can pick up the iron sight better than a red dot.
Love me some KH (as a matter of fact Ameriglo Hacks are my default sight), but one of the big positives is that in dry firing and even live fire (with attentiveness) the dot gives you so much more information on trigger pull and basic fundamentals. Iron sights mask sight picture wobble and bad trigger press. When you can dry fire without the dot jumping around, and in live fire when the dot goes straight up and returns to a place very close to where you were aiming, your fundamentals are sound. It is much harder to develop this with irons unless you have a good instructor and lots and lots of rounds downrange. So even if someone doesn't like it for duty/carry, it is still a valuable training tool to shorten the learning curve on basic fundamentals.
@Don Ables
Mantis x and laser academy will show you way more than a red dot in that regard.
As I listen to Ken, the points I got were this: 1) there’s a little bit of a learning curve with red dot; 2) in a point-and-shoot scenario they may not present an advantage; 3) if you’re going to get one, get a good one and practice with it; 4) like any optic that relies on glass, environmental conditions can affect your immediate sight picture, a d 5) practice to become proficient. That logic is unassailable.
I agree, I have been working on getting good with a red dot sight for a while now shooting and dry fire every week. I am still faster (within 10yrds) with irons. Please do a video on how to reduce the issues with these downsides!
I agree - red dots CAN help but takes a lot of time and practice. I’m still a fan of regular sights and lasers. I shoot looking at the sights, but also practice with my lasers. Once lined up, lasers have an advantage: You have to be able to see the red dots for it to work. If you are in a defensive situation where you can’t line your gun and sight up they’re not going to help, whereas with a properly lined up laser only needs to put the dot on the target regardless of your gun positioning. Dot on target pull the trigger. Works for me.
Bob Haldi
Totally agree! Call me old school but I'll just stick with simple open sights. Easy, durable, idiot proof and just plain work!
Bet U Still Use Newspaper's Instead Of Internet 😅😅😅 Its Call Better Life Pops
@@twe_music You been watching?
It would be "It's called" if you are wanting to sound intelligent, Lol.@@twe_music
@@twe_musici bet you still use spoon and fork
Same here. I've tried the optics and I really see no point. To each their own.
I am with you 100%, my agency went to a red dot, I tried it for a few months, but every time I qualified it reaffirmed that iron sights were faster, thus better for my purpose. Now whenever I go to the range I'm one of "those guys" who refused to adapt to change, I did not, just did not drink the Kool-Aid on red dots.
Thank you sir for setting me straight, I thought it was just me, because I shoot poorly with multiple red dots. I do fairly well with my iron sites because I've shoot thousands of rounds that way. I have a hugh learning curve to get use to my red dots. Thank you again sir great video and thank you for your expertise.
He didn’t set you straight. He isn’t capable of switching to a dot, so he fed you a list of excuses as to why you shouldn’t either and it was what you wanted to hear.
all you just said was "im not willing to break my habits because it takes effort"
Ken’s main point: “you need to practice with a red dot optic to become good at it.” But it’s the same for iron sights: you need to practice to be good at it. And he starts the video by saying that for new shooters a red dot is quicker to learn. Most of this advice is about whether someone who is already highly proficient with iron sights should switch to a dot optic.
He came across as dogmatic to me. He said you’re on crack if you think it’s better inside of 10 yards. Just an absolute false statement. He put himself on a pedestal. Meaning if he doesn’t see better results, then no one else will.
Also by insulting the viewer, he showed he unwilling to hear any arguments. He will and did just dismiss any.
Not sure if that was the internet, but perception plays a huge role.
My feeling is that inside 10 yards it’s a point and shoot game, not much aiming needed.
That’s how i understood what he said, but hey, That’s just My Two Cents !!!
@@thatsmytwocents4372 For me using a dot pretty much is point shooting except you are actually confirming that you are on target.
Iron sights for precision requires proper sight alignment and is a more gross way of aiming due to the size of irons, more obstruction due to (for me personally) not being able to shoot with both eyes open with irons.
I present the gun properly and get a clear and precise sight picture. No alignment. Just, is the dot on target then press trigger.
I would love to see someone point shoot a .5” dot consistently at even 5 yards. I would not feel comfortable point shooting at someone 7+ yards away just because I can do it.
We are talking about moving targets under stress. There’s a video of a guy selling air Jordan’s to someone in a parking lot. Both men had a group of friends around them. They both pulled guns on each other point blank firing multiple rounds. As far as I know no one was hit. Just stupid luck that no one did.
I’m not putting faith in not aiming with precision when it matters. Again, for me personally both eyes open on a clear target and a dot on that target is better than one eye closed aligned sights on a fuzzy target. Point shooting only acceptable at maybe 6’. I’ve done bill drills sub 2 sec, so I’m more than competent.
@@96stealthyouve articulated the reality of the situation far better than my short patience for fudds
@@IronsitePistols did I ruffle the little fuddy buddy's feathers, poor little guy
Thank you sir. As an instructor running transition classes for LEOs who want to run dots, I agree with you in most respects. I have observed so many problems, from flying off the gun to obscured glass to the battery literally flying out of one, that the course we designed for our officers focuses more on how to shoot it broken than how to shoot it when everything is perfect. About the only place I see an advantage is the farther you get from the target, as long as they stay zeroed and I’ve seen every brand lose zero. During our last academy session, took a shot from 100 yards expecting to ring steel and was off. Rang it twice in a row with the back up iron sights. In the real world, that’s a bullet you don’t get back so hopefully the miss doesn’t hit anyone or anything it shouldn’t. I’ll train both but I’ll carry without unless I’m teaching a red dot class.
I got the opportunity to borrow a gun with a nice red dot on it recently. After years and years of shooting with iron sights, I was surprised how awkward the red dot felt to me. I can pick up a glock or a 1911 with completely different grip angles with no problem, but the red dot really messed with me. Thanks for pointing out why that is before I spent a bunch of money for the "fancy stuff".
Thank you for this discussion. I have a red dot on an AR pistol and another on a full-size SIG P320, and I like them. But none of my carry pistols have them, and the P320 is set up to co-witness with the tritium iron sights; I practice firing that one both ways. I think I'll keep being one of the "not cool kids" on my EDC pistols.
I switched due to my eye sight. Getting near sighted and I had always stuck with iron sights but after trying an RDO it really helped. I imagine it's different from person to person and how they adjust.
The thing I find dumb about this discussion is that no one talks about how u can get really good at BOTH. Not just one or the other. For a SHTF/Duty pistol seems a red dot with iron sights that cowitness is the way to go. But for EDC you’d probably be fine with just irons as your probably not gonna have to use that thing at further distances to depend yourself in public.
I’ve been shooting these for years. You are spot on that compared to irons it is more perishable if you don’t practice with the red dot. I have several identical guns, one with a red dot and one without. I find myself using the ones with irons more. I’m no spring chicken either, we’re pretty close in age.
Not to mention the fact that for the cost of simply putting a red dot on my current carry gun, I could buy 2,000 rounds of ammo to train with…
@@definitelynotaheretic.7295 yeah too bad it's only one or the other.
Well I can only afford one or the other, so yeah, it is.
@@definitelynotaheretic.7295but you won't, because everyone who makes this argument doesn't actually do that or seem to grasp the concept of training with your tools anyways. Get the dot and 2,000 rounds anyways. You're presumably an adult with income. Save up if you have to. You're already carrying a lethal tool you should be as proficient and accurate as possible with.
I appreciate the straight talk. We need more of it.
This video saved me $500. Going with night sights instead. Thank you for the detailed information
I love this video. As a relatively new concealed carrier and firearm owner, sometimes it can be overwhelming with all the gear recommendations and trends. I like the focus on simplicity.
I also laughed at this description of the “cool kids”. It does seem like all of the Internet influencers carry appendix and have red dots haha.
I recommend if you’re curious that you try a red dot. When I’ve tried them on handguns, I’ve been surprised at how long it took time to find the dot itself. I think in a short range defensive scenario that irons are going to be preferable for amateur firearm owners
I agree %100, I'm not that new to concealed carry but I consider my knowledge of firearms to be relatively new, I train for the reason i'm carrying, self defense, I think for me iron sights are going to be the best, 10 yards or shorter, this guy has fired more rounds than I would fire in 3 lifetimes, I have all the respect in tbe world for his opinoin.
Train to draw to the dot. It doesn’t take THAT long to get used to
@@andrewaldrich3602lol no
Most of the dudes talking shit about Ken are just mad because they invested their ego into their gear and need to be validated.
💯
Solid content and knowledge as always. 👌
Glad you enjoyed it
Excellent discussion. Glad I went with night sights instead of a red dot on my recent ccw purchase.
What is being discussed is the difference between fighting with a pistol and shooting for sport. Less is more with the fighting tools. Great sound advice from a been their done that man. Thanks much Mr. Hackathon. Appreciate the option.
I have to say that I am a one percenter. I shoot weekly. I compete regularly. Recently I began preparing to shoot an IDPA match called "The Sheepdog", which requires all shooters to use compact carry guns with iron sights. I had been using a Sig 320 X5 Legion with a Sig Romeo 1 for all my matches. Coming back to iron sights for this upcoming match was difficult. After several matches and practice I am just now getting back to my previous accuracy and speed levels with iron sights that I had with the RDS. I am 70 years old and I know that I do shoot better with an RDS. But you are right, Ken. There is a learning curve and switching from iron sights to RDS or vice versa is a challenge. The best advice I can give is to pick one and stay with it.
I’m 41 been shooting my entire life. I completely agree with you. There are a lot of pluses but there are negatives too. The biggest thing for me for a negative is people don’t train enough but that’s with anything. Me personally, I have astigmatism and can’t use a red dot because they all starburst with me. I do just fine with iron sights like I always have though. So…
I can hear Ken all day long. The wisdom and authority from which he speaks based on his experience is awesome. I am a 1%er been shooting since childhood. 60 year young this year. I was at a Range Officer Class this past week, 6 guys with Red dot me and other one with iron sights. Have to tell you we did better than the red dots, our groups were tighter. the instructor even said, you guys better go check the sighting... anyway, conning myself to get a Red Dot, your wisdom sharing is invaluable. THANK YOU.
Great video Ken! Your wisdom is greatly needed in the gun community.
No wisdom there, just Fudlore
Lol does not agree must disparage
Thank you, Mr. Hackathorn for a well thought out, pros and cons sharing of your views. Marketing folks are pushing the red dot narrative. Different people will find different answers. My edc pistol is fine without a red dot. I do have a red dot on one of my range recreation pistols. Again, great video. Thanks
You are 100 percent Correct Ken. I’m an instructor and work in a gun store. The vast majority of the guys out there aren’t interested in actually learning to shoot and master the handgun. They just want the latest and greatest to be tacticool on the range.
That’s fairly funny as HACKathorn and his crew of fudds probably couldn’t get out of C class as mediocre as their shooting is.
They’re nuts lol
Way to completely miss the point...your words are those of a fool
Red dots are Tact Tards treats.
@@wtcb7892 the future always scare you or just the future of gun stuff?
Superb video thanks for taking the time to make it.
You don’t need a red dot… on a personal protection pistol. Agreed. Does it hurt to have one? Probably not.
Probably not unless it's a hand-to-hand struggle and then the optic becomes an object for your assailant to grab on to. Whatever, as much as I love improvements, I say leave them off carry pistols. Less is better. Probably not becomes probably a problem.
Hurts my wallet. I could have more ammo, magazines, and training instead.
Always shot iron sights. Tried a red dot on a rifle. Had trouble picking up the dot, but even more I see two sets of dots or cross-hairs because of brain surgery messing with my visual cortex.
A laser makes more sense to me, but only if it's on a pressure switch, and I don't think it's the magic "the bullet will hit right here."
A laser has to be sighted in for a specific ammo for a specific range. It just means "you should hit around here someplace."
I just don't see any big advantage for your normal concealed carry pistol. Maybe it's just me, but it seems a lot of cost and hassle mating up holsters and so on, when I don't think it's going to give me significantly better groups
Then, as Ken suggested, you do you.
@@RUM123 I believe everybody posting on this thread has done exactly that.
Very solid and accurate presentation. Well done.
The thing about extended yardage engagements is that if you needed a $400 red dot with the training to hit the 40yard or whatever shot, maybe just avoiding the engagement would be the best strategy either way. Situational awareness is the real skill we need to be safe, to be honest
Best comment.
Shooting in a competition like Steel Challenge and hitting a plate a 35 yards isn’t about tactical engagement. It is skill building
Much like shooting Bullseye at 50’yards.
While I agree situational awareness is key.
Not every type shooting event isn’t about tactical.
Some are building skill and accuracy just because.
@@edbigtruck Sure, but people don't justify red dots for competition use. They justify them because a bad guy might get me.
@@kalashnikovdevil Apparently you can't comprehend my comment.
I’m showing my wife the part where you said I was pretty smart.
But seriously I’m out of commission right now from surgery and have been watching a lot of WC videos. Great info and wisdom. Thank you very much.
I could listen to another hour of this. I had lots of nods and smiles with knowing what he is saying is accurate- he just has a great way of saying it.
Because you are a complete dumb ass red dots will get you killed real quick
Thank you, Ken. Interesting point of view on trends. What are some of the "trends" that stayed and why do they stay? That would be a interesting video from someone like you with years of experience in the industry!
The .40 has drop off ⬇️ by a considerable amount by 2022 BUT I think it still has merit. I own 3 .40 guns. I also qual, G-security on 9x19mm, .40S&W. I'd think Ken would have a stronger argument about the "trends" of .357sig users, maybe 10mm.
The 10 mm went and now there is infatuation. The .40 is the red headed stepchild right now, but it will be back. I scooped up some .40 CZs that are on the rarer side because folks were getting rid of them. Mistake on their part, IMHO.
The trend that stays is that more criminals have guns than regular civilians. And people who've never held a gun want the civilians not to be able to own one. That trend is here forever.
This is refreshing. Im a new gun owner and been contemplating getting a red dot but personally i want to learn to use iron sights properly and become a good shooter that way - basically feel like im doing myself a disservice as a gun owner not learning how to use iron sights and going straight to red dot. Also, that is such a good point about the argument about having back up iron sights if you cannot find the red dot. The brain will continue to look for that dot. So true
your dot may go out or get blocked... but unless your front post flies off, you iron sights will always be there.
Iron is fine. Get nights sights if you like.
When addressing the challenge of quickly locating the dot in reflex sights, the ACSS Vulcan offers an innovative solution. It features a unique large circle reticle that's normally outside your field of view but becomes visible if you're misaligned with the target. This design ensures you instantly know if you're off-target without the need to search for the dot. Moreover, if the optic fails, you won't see the reticle at all, allowing you to immediately switch to iron sights without hesitation. In my opinion, these features make the ACSS Vulcan not just a solution, but arguably the best optic choice available.
Your brain will do better under stress with standard “enhanced” concealed carry sights. I’ve been shooting a long time and none of my everyday carry arms have red dots. I do own several, but they’re all on my hunting firearms, i e my turkey shotguns, 22lr “squirrel” pistols and my night hunting hog guns (scopes with lighted dots or cross hairs) but I’d never consider “looking for a dot” in a mass shooter/self defense situation-because you’re liable for every round that comes out so you need to not have “dot tunnel vision”.
Not knowing how to use irons is like not knowing how to drive a manual transmission.
Excellent insight here
This is a little bit analogous to why younger generations take to new digital technology so quickly. If you’ve already been using iron sights for decades, it will be much more difficult to adapt to the RDS than for someone who doesn’t have thousands of hours trying to use irons. If you give a new shooter two identical handguns, one with iron sights and one with a RDS, they *will* shoot better and more easily with the optic-equipped pistol
I have also heard Modern Samurai (Jedlinski) say in a video that young people like the dot right from the start and older shooters often seem to prefer the circle or circle dot and then gradually change to just a dot.
If our pocket pistols don’t have 20 round magazines a compensated 3in barrel a weapon light and 1/4lb trigger we will lose the gun fight 😢😭😭😭🤪
Don't forget about the wizbang 2,000?
Every self-defense pistol must have a bayonet!
@@phillipneill7315 and storage for a Tourniquet Band-Aids for USCCA membership card and skittles.
😂😂😂😂 100%
👍🏼😆💯
How dare anyone call you an old geiser. Your an excellent instructor and a world class shooter.
Your opinion is valued and greatly appreciated.
Being an old geezer is a badge of honor I wear proudly.
How is he a world class shooter?
Does he compete? Where are his videos showing him pushing accuracy and speed?
@@faiz_bham In 1980 Mr. Hackathorn was ranked #10 in competitive shooting.
Thats #10 in the United States.
These guys definitely created many common drills we all use. That said, this video is, sadly, fuddlore. This is a prime example of becoming "stuck in your ways."
Ken...Outstanding overview! Fair and balanced with context to all your key points. I'm "older guy" too so I went to MRDS on my Sig P365X. You nailed it! I'm decent and comfortable after maybe 800-1,000 rounds plus some dry firing, but really, with unaided vision using slide focus and natural point of aim my shots are combat effective IMHO out to 7 yards...at 10 decent. When a guy like you talks about MRDS, old guys like me listen intently!! Lots of hype out there. Thanks for sharing years and thousands of rounds worth of real experience!
I've never liked red dots on handguns until I started shooting with night vision. When using nods a red dot on your handgun is indispensable. Literally a game changer.
It would be, but then you've also radically changed the parameters of the situation, Ken even acknowledged this in his comments. But it average daylight conditions, is there really a difference?
@@wesbrown5601 I agree with Ken, just saying red dots do have a legit niche. I'm a 1% gun guy and I still don't run a dot on my carry gun.
@@wesbrown5601 there’s plenty of videos explaining the pros of a red dot. They are factually better in a lot of areas. Garand thumb, 1911 syndicate, warrior poet, colion Noir all have videos on this subject.
@@Josh-mk7ok there are pros and cons for any tool, the final decision is up to the user and what works best for them.
@@murder0neif the niche is every use of a handgun, then yes, it is a niche
Loved this video, it's 1 of the more realistic gun videos out there on the internet
Completely agree.
Politicians, Police, and MADD understand that Non-violent VICTIMLESS felony convictions that permanently abolish gun rights are key to trickery in abolishing all guns and ammunition!
Eternally removing 2nd Amendment rights for victimless non-violent crimes (Without vehicle accidents, victims, or even incidents) while conveniently allowing these same newly created felons to keep their "voting rights" (based on victimless crimes) is for anti-gun & bullet reasons!
Government wisdom: Allowing new (Non-violent) "felons" with eternally removed gun rights to keep their voting rights, would persuade a vote to abolish all guns & bullets!
If Non-violent felons can't legally possess a single bullet then nobody should possess bullets! PERIOD.
Make no mistake these newly created (Non-violent) felons (Moms and Dads) are coming after your guns next, with vengeance, for equality!!
They said the same thing in the 90's when Red Dots showed up on top of carry handles and here we are today...pistol dots are here too stay. 👍 BTW Ken that Holosun with the ACSS Reticle is a game changer cuts the learning curve significantly.
Oddly enough it was the carry handle that went away. The reflex optic just changed its mounting system.
I run a red dot on all of my rifles, even the ones with magnified optics. Its a vastly superior backup sight to irons
This is the answer but Elmer's gonna fudd
@@baalzamon3593 I FINALLY went to illuminated red dot rifle scopes, just last year, probably about five years late! Had a 2x42 TruGlo red dot on my AR, but at distance, it was a joke! Just put a Burris FULLFIELD IV 2.5X10 illuminated reticle scope on it--Wow! What a difference. Its "red dot" is actually an illuminated "cross," which I happen to really LIKE. I keep all of my red dots on a lower power setting, so that they don't interfere with easy target acquisition. Old eyes don't work as well as "young" ones, at least in MY case... lol
I think you inadvertently reinforced one of his points about RDS on EDCs with the nod to the ACSS reticle. Within that typical self-defense 10 yard range the ACSS isn't bringing anything useful to the table. (Big fan of those ACSS btw and have one on my AR.)
@@xtrastrengthfukitol7733 the ACSS Vulcan isn't the same as a BDC style reticle you find in rifle optics. It's a Chevron with a giant outer circle that is completely out of view until your misaligned. It shines when dry firing to build muscle memory, so when you "Point Shoot" at self defense distances you will present the gun and line up your shot intuitively. Or you can turn off the ring and it becomes just a regular RDS.
No red dot on my self defense pistol but I do have a light laser combo hanging on the front end. Was thinking about the dot sight but old guy makes some very valid points. I'm with the old fella on this one.
The reason "old guys" do know is they can still remember! Now "real old guys" like me don't remember a lot of what they experienced. Thank God we have guys like you Ken reminding us. It a shame young guys don't realize how smart those old guys were, until they are.
I am old and able to remember pretty much everything of significance that has ever happened to me. I've had guns since I was a teenager and then went more than a decade without picking up a gun. I went to a range with a friend and found that although I wasn't able to put them through the same hole, I was quite comfortable and able to get some decent groupings which would have been tight enough to get the job done if I was involved in a "bump in the night" incident. It wasn't as much any retained muscle memory as it was mentally focusing on what I wanted to do and then being able to execute it at a respectable level. Sort of like the riding a bike saying I guess. The part about anyone listening to an old guy anymore is due in part to our culture not valuimg wisdom gained from lifes' experiences, which I just realize is the way it is so go ahead and burn your hand on the hot stove if that's what makes you feel better, everyone to their own.
@paul Heinz what?
Some old guys still want to sell buggy whips. ruclips.net/video/62kxPyNZF3Q/видео.html
Amen
Listening to "old guys" all the damn time is how you get stagnant and never develop anything new.
Under the stress of a firefight most people are going to threat focus. I don't care how much range time you've put in with irons, when there's a dude trying to take your life you are going to be focused on him. Red dots work with our instincts and for that reason, i'm in.
Excellent video. I'm 72 years old and not long ago obtained my first red dot sight. Two things which were covered in this video that I rarely hear people talk about but that I wholeheartedly agree with are the learning curve and the questionable need for a red dot on an EDC pistol. I have about 600 rounds through my RDS equipped Canik and have only recently started to enjoy using it. I had a lot of trouble acquiring and keeping the dot after recoil when shooting quickly. Also, knowing that the majority of self defense encounters are within 10 yards, at those distances I don't want my eyes trained to be looking for the dot when acquiring only the front iron sight or point shooting would in my estimation be more intuitive and much faster.
I know this is old, like me, but I couldn't agree more Ken.
The same people that talk trash about not using a red dot are the same people telling lies about carrying a full size Glock 34 with a red dot and a Lazer and flash light as an EDC.
I heckin love fuddlore!
I’m actually transitioning some of my pistols back to irons. I bought into the modern trends for the past few years and have decided I like to keep it simple, especially for EDC. There’s something magical about a full size frame in a leather holster. It just plain works.
Same
I still run a dot on fun guns but it's unrealistic and an inconvenience on my edc.
I started practicing with no sights and found I could easily dump a mag into center mass at 15y with no sights
Which is the more realistic scenario in self defense which usually happens in milliseconds at less than 7y
I could not agree more, thank you for saying this. There is nothing “Fudd” about an edc with irons. Like you, I ended up removing my red dot from my edc for a myriad of reasons. I just practice a lot more with it now. I still love red dots on my full-size pistols.
@@RockinRack I’m with you except for the “usually” thing. I get it, all we have is stats, but they don’t tell you anything about what YOUR potential defensive shooting might look like. The Eli Dickens shooting may not be “typical” but it still happened. Several people owe their lives to the fact that Eli did not have the mentality that he should only train and gear up for an incident within 15 yards. We can neither choose the time nor the place.
I love iron sights being low profile. I have fired guns with red dots and i agree it is easier to shoot, but i don't like to make my subcompact bigger because of the enormous size of the sights.
problem is like that guy on active shooter he likes to say see I have a this expensive I believe is an H&K upgraded grip and primo optics and is his carry how many people have 3 to 5 grand on a pistol to spend these are the people who get everyone hyped on optics could be wrong have not heard anyone saying my life got saved cause I had an optic on the pistol if you want one fine but there not a miracle device
So good. KISS. Keep it simple sir. or stupid. Loving the videos and learning lots. Thank you.
Ken hit the nail on the head for me. During a live-fire training exercise recently, I used my P365X with a red dot. The sky was clouded over, so my dot was visible to my satisfaction. Right in the middle of an exercise, the clouds parted and that bright hot Texas sun made the dot disappear. My old brain that was with me through the previous months of red dot training could not quickly make the transition back to the iron sights. I could have kicked myself for dropping so many points due to that issue.
Instinctive shooting needs to be taught more. On the worst day of your life it's almost certainly going to be more important than the red dot or your iron sights. The case of the young guy recently ending a mass shooter at 40 yards or whatever is a major outlier even for law enforcement. And you should be making those shots with irons anyhow.
If it's the Sig Romeo red dot, then I'm not surprised. Frankly... it's a low quality sight.
@@Racer88, admittedly, yes. It was the Sig Romeo. Upon returning home from that training class, I ordered a Holosun. Much easier to ratchet the brightness up or down.
Set it to a higher power, looking at a brighter dot is a much better tradeoff than not seeing your dot
LOVED this analysis Ken! Fantastic and extremely helpful to me making a decision about this. Thank you for your time!
I glad to hear this; I've been shooting iron sighted 1911's 45 since the 80's. If I still handgun hunted maybe... Keep up the great job Ken ! Stay Strong and Be Safe !!
I’m new to sidearms and I really appreciate your opinion. I’m old enough to know when starting anything you, you end up spending tons of money on things you regret later. Much respect.
I have coached relatively few shooters, but seeing the improvement on the timer and the target with just a switch from irons to a red dot has been undeniable. People that want the quickest way to be able to safely hit their target with minimal training can easily see the value of a red dot and they will honestly be the ones to fund them, not the 1% that shoot 20k+ rounds a year, compete, go to courses and train to high performance.
Try XS big dots for fighting pistols. They're very good.
I shoot more than 20k rounds a year and red dots still improve my performance. They are just superior.
@revseanchan I agree, my comment was specifically addressing the "re-training" theme that was in the video. It's easier to communicate what is happening with a new shooter that uses a red dot and that will lead to better performance with fewer rounds.
Anyone who says Hackathorn doesnt know what he’s Talking about automatically goes to the ignore list for me
@@southernpartisan1772 I mean a lot of the time when you ask why they don't like something new their response is "well x was good enough for me, so there's no reason anybody would need y".
In my agency (10,000 sworn), maybe 300 are qualified and certified to carry red dots. Our best shooters. I'm one of them. I train a lot, and I perform much better with a dot on my duty weapon. I refuse to carry guns without dots now. I think they're truly the future. Rubber grips and laser sights didn't go out of fashion, they evolved into stippling/aggressive patterning and red dots.
edit: While Ken has an extensive history of teaching high level law enforcement and military SMUs, I think he's missing one of the most valuable benefits of the pistol mounted optic which is target assessment and reassessment. Since you’re target-focused, you can simply put the dot on top of the target and evaluate their behavior (rather than worry about rear sight, front sight, and target).
What is good is that you, through experimentation, have found out what works for you.
You have done what Ken had done. He experimented, analyzed his experiences, and expressed his findings.
What amazes me is that he is accepting of RDSs, considering that he has probably drawn from holster and acquired a sight picture with iron sights for more than a million times.
@@johnreacher3756 Very true! For the most part, I agree with Ken. I just think that pistol mounted optics (PMO) are definitely the future. They will likely evolve, but I think any legit shooter that trains with it will see huge benefits to PMOs, especially in law enforcement and military special operations. I'll make an edit to my original post to elaborate.
@Brock Hampton as you said, you are in the top 3% of your agency. You are an elite shooter. You are also in law enforcement, which means that you may actually un-holster you fire arm a couple of times a year. For the rest of us civilians carrying arms for self defense, the probability of pulling out our gun in a defensive situation (legally, that is) is less than 1% in our lifetime. So the point is that red dots are over hyped and arguably unnecessary for the mere mortals like myself who probably will never have to pull a gun on someone and asses and reasses the situation in fractions of a second before I decided that I have to pull the trigger to save my life or that of friends and family. That being said, I like red dots, they look cool. And TBH that’s the reason why I got one and why I buy all the gadgets, because they are cool.
@@MrGuisda I unholster my firearm to clear buildings and detain suspects at gunpoint at least a multiple times per week, if not multiple times day. So yes, I have an elevated necessity of a red dot, but my experience has shown me how beneficial it is. I get that it's not for everyone, but if you carry a gun, you open yourself to a bunch of civil and criminal scrutiny if you use it. The investment which enhancing your ability to make a sound decision and an accurate hit in the event that you shoot someone is well worth it in my opinion.
I prefer iron sights. However, as my eyes age, I find it harder to focus on them. I've been adding red/green dot reflex sights to a number of handguns along with suppressor height sights so I can co-witness. I recently added reflex sights to a couple of Glock G40s which I use almost exclusively for hunting and honestly improved my accuracy at long range significantly.
Have you tried XS big dot sights?
They are GREAT!, Got the Big one on my front sight iron back ups on my AR.@@AverageGunPerson
I appreciate your point of view. I'm a new shooter and from day one I've had a red (green) dot, so I'm used to it. You're right though, it offers no advantage for close-range shooting or even home defense unless for some reason you're lying in wait for someone who's in the process of busting a window or door. That's where it can be useful, even in the dark (theoretically). Either way, I'm glad they exist.