You guys were clicking and echoing in synergy the whole episode but especially those last 20 minutes. I have been an avid listener of the show and this is for sure one of the educated peaks for me as a listener. This is that good shit !
Oddly enough, I read the first film as nihilistic, not this film. Arthur was able to shed the "Joker" label and somewhat be at peace with just being Arthur - a person who did horrible things, but is not 'crazy' or a 'symbol' or a 'spectacle' or any other label other than 'human'. Whether he died in prison of old age, died via electric chair, or died via shank - didn't really matter, which is why I don't find the ending shocking or disappointing at all. To me, it was just an indication that society itself had still not released him of those labels.
A Joker 2 with Harley should have been modeled on Natural Born Killers...a real early 90s Tarantino vibe, and it could have been a commentary on celebrity, violence, media narratives, and in that they could explore toxic attraction and dangers of making a hero out of someone like Arthur.
Natural Born Killers was an awful film that Tarantino deeply despised. He wrote the screenplay but thought Stone's film was truly awful and much different than the script he wrote. There are several stories that led to long held grudges and disputes Tarantino had with many involved with the film. If you just want an uglier version of Bonnie & Clide, then there are better inspirations.
What a terrible movie. Also, it further solidifies that the only reason the first movie was good was because it was a rip-off of King of Comedy and Taxi Driver - movies made by a superior director with an actual artistic vision.
It’s hard to articulate the precise feeling this film evoked in me, though I know it had something to do with the nagging suspicion that I was, at that moment, the only person in the world. Not only, but isolated. The film was flawed, Christ Almighty was it flawed, but there’s a point where that becomes irrelevant, especially when you’re confronted with something that feels as though it was engineered specifically to speak to you. Let’s start with the two leads, who critics in their wave of disapproval forgot to mention, actors that have more talent in their thumbs than 99% of hollywood. Both are now taken for granted. Gaga’s voice, now a cultural touchstone, is as always amazing. She’s also playfully unhinged, playing a sultry game with Joaquin Phoenix as he turns the joker into an even more miserable version of Johnny Cash. Critics and fans are going to hate this film for two reasons. For one thing, it’s a musical that leans into a lounge fantasy instead of engaging in the violence of the first film. And that’s a big part of the problem (or, if you’re like me, the appeal). The film’s refusal to care what you think of it, to say nothing of its evident disdain for both its audience and the larger human race, means it will inevitably be misunderstood. The film has less violence, more singing and is somehow darker in theme. But the thing is in five years, when the outrage has subsided and people are ready to be a little more honest with themselves, the cult of film lovers will come around. They’ll realize what Jake Fay knew from the beginning-this is the better of the two films. There are also too many shades of my favorite things here: a prison romance that evokes The Executioner’s Song, the courtroom musical sequences reminiscent of Bjok’s Dancer in the Dark. It’s a wildly subversive film, one that never once panders to its audience or even bothers pretending to like them. It feels, in that way, like it was a tiny little gift to me.
This movie sounds like it wasn't meant to be enjoyed, but endured. There are so many books in the DC catalog that exist that any future director could potentially borrow from that there's really no excuse to make a poor Joker film. Two off the top of my head are "Joker" and "Batman Damned", by Brian Azzarello. Not only is the artwork fantastic, but both stories are well worth reading.
For everyone saying the synergy and conversation was rocking and fluid- congratulate, Sean !!! He could converse with a monk who’s on a 10 year vow of silence
These two had one of the best conversations about half way through about culture half way through. Bonus - Sean broke out the worst ‘transmogrified’. 😂😂😂 These guys are wonderdul
I'm 1000% in the just make a "good movie". No I don't care about intention or taking big swings. Matrix was a massive swing, but also a good movie. Same could be said with Everything Everywhere or dozens and dozens of other works. I'm going to the movie for myself, not the audience or the director. If I'm not entertained, then that's all there is to it.
Fantastic conversation, one of BP's best episodes ever. Ummm but wtf is going on with the decor in the studio? Big 1st week in a dorm room energy. Can we hang some of those frames? Isn't Sean a Mets fan?
If I wanted to see Lady Gaga in concert I would go to see Lady Gaga in concert, but not like this. Wasted opportunity to give us another amazing Joker movie. SMFH
I’ve never been so uninterested in a sequel in my life. If Todd Phillips wants an ego-driven downer vanity project, have him start without a popular IP.
I'm really disappointed after watching Joker 2 because of the idea of making a sequel, which meant they ruined the first movie on purpose. Furthermore, I don't think this movie hates me, actually it is an insult for those people, who liked the first Joker, I hope they do not use Joker: Folie á Deux as an example of why people hate musicals.
Phillips made something special here. It is far more compelling and creatively interesting than the first film. Never for a second was I bored in any way shape or form. See it in Imax 1.43:1 70mm if you can
It’s funny I felt this same way about the first film… I appreciate the craft of it but overall I felt that Phillips and co “hated us” in the first one too. Interesting to see the sequel be so clear about that decision and aggressive. Also interesting to note that Bradley cooper jumped off this film and was not involved when he played such a large role in the first film.
Love it when it's these two chopping it up. But I know Van has to make Sean break at least twice when it comes to something weird or sexual. So before I press play - 0/U on making Sean break, I say over 1.5.
Let's be honest everyone online has been waiting to destroy this film upon release Having seen the movie, and not going by the many think pieces about what this film represents overall, if taken at face value its a really good companion piece to the first in where Arthur and the Media examine who this Joker is to where at the end perhaps we see the modern & well known interation of The Joker found in DC. In this world there must be a Joker in Gotham and we do see that happen.
Tood philips doesnt get to do the "i hate that people love arthur and that people think he is the hero" he doesnt get to distance himself from that woth joker 2 because he made arthur the hero and cool by making him "Joker" if he wanted a story of a guy beaten down by american society, he should have made that but by calling that joker he made arthur a lot more than that. He got 100 mil dollars from it so shut up take the rest of it.
Agreed. Haven’t seen part 2 (have no interest after the first) but it sounds like the disdain being directed towards the audience by Phillips is coming from within
It's funny how Joker: Deux à L'Orange came out one week after another ambitious, un-commercial auteur project in Megalopolis. But the reason the latter works is because the latter was made by Francis Ford Coppola, while the former was made by a guy who made boner comedies in the 2000's.
People are being silly with the hate; I get it's not for everyone and I think it's very flawed but it's nowhere near this dumpster fire like people are making it out to be. It's a decent movie.
Here’s my theory- There are so many not good/blah movies today and Amanda and Sean (and the others) would have a tough show if they came down on every movie. Meanwhile everyone praises movies of the past and we want those kind of movies today. So when Sean says he had fun with Trap, there’s gonna be blow back. It’s a meh movie at best. How about we get a Signs or Sixth Sense instead of spending a lot of money for a lame Trap movie? I love their discussion of movies, but what they have to choose from really waste their intelligence. Literally none of the movies from the past five (ten?) make their hall of fames.
Todd Phillips is a fine technician but a muddy voice and Sean's points about his belief that DEUX is an attempt to clarify JOKER on Phillips' part speaks to that. I have also long thought Todd seems thin-skinned and self-inflated, much like Michael Bay ala the "Where's my Oscar for PEARL HARBOR??" years. Mid-talent with a grand ego whose reach overmatches his grasp. YMMV.
I really liked the first movie and will never understand the conversations that movie created. I liked this breakdown of the movie with Van much better than when he has to walk on egg shells with Steve and Jomi who refuse to talk about the movie without letting their politics get in the way, like I get you're a liberal (so am I) but everything doesn't need to be discussed outside of the realm of art itself.
Can we talk about the elephant in the room? Van Latham is loser. He reminds me of Steve Urkel cosplaying as Wyatt Earp. Whatever you’re going for simply isn’t working out Van.
This sounds quite lame. However can I pick at something you said about the original being an “incel nightmare?” This was the media’s buzz about it in 2019 and even then it didn’t fit. Is Arthur consumed by his lack of success with women and channels that into a twisted resentment of women and society at large? He’s definitely twisted but not for that reason. He’s so hatefully misogynistic that he imagines going on a pleasant and very tame date with Zazie beetz… (sarcasm)
i was today years old when i found out Van produced one of my favorite short films ever, Two Distant Strangers. been a huge Joey Bada$$ fan for over 10 years, so to be binging Ringer pods and not even realizing the connection is just 🤣
@@edgardoMurnia thought of it as some cool alternate origin story for joker, first movie was a 7/10, enjoyed some things. This movie just feels like joker 1.5 but a musical and purposely hard to get through.
@@Sled27don Exactly. that's why I don't understand how this movie or the first relate in any way about your "burnt out". That's all. Not defending this joke of a movie (I despise musicals, which are for theaters not movies) nor the first one, which I love, but it's a King of Comedy meets Taxi Driver with Joker skin.
my whole twitter feed is full cbm watchers that only watch cbms, so they're just on a never ending hate train for it. but after the past few years of watching this podcast, watching a bunch of movies and making music of my own, the way yall described Joker 2 makes me want to watch it now. a big contention seems to be that it's so nihlist and so, must be pointless. but why would nihilism be inherently be pointless? why does it not have a place in the range of emotion that a movie can express? why can optimism exist on its own, while nihilism can't? Some other comment is saying that Todd Phillips can't critique the idolization of the joker, because he made Arthur seem like a hero, when in reality, they simply could not separate stories from their actual values, completely blinded by the fact that a narrative made them sympathize with a murderer. Now tell me, why, when a certain actor spins a narrative that he was actually innocent, despite being convicted 12 of the 14 incidents of physical violence against their wife a year prior, suddenly that actor is perceived to be innocent by the general public anyways... even though the only case he won was a defamation case against her opinion piece article, instead of the actual assault case... and if anything, he is even more idolized afterward. I just feel like that gives the critique and platform that the movie has validity. anyways, I guess I haven't watched the movie yet, but all the criticism I'm hearing of it online has nothing to do with the actual filmmaking, but just the fact that Joker dies at the end, so I feel like I can comment on the shallowness of those critiques with a shallow critique of my own.
I don't want to be that guy but you take Amanda out of one episode and the quality of conversation just reaches a new height. Probably one of the best one hour that I have listened to this year. Especially the last 20 mins perfectly explained what I have been feeling about movie discourse for quite some time now. More Van on the The Big Picture please!
Really good pod and conversation. This shows that this pod is better without Amnada. Having someone who has real ideas instead of "I'm happy for you" or "this didn't work for me and that's ok" is refreshing
Listen, let's cut the shit, the main problem with this film and the original is that it has NOTHING to do with The Joker from the comics. Watching the first one I felt, man they wrote a movie and said "How can I make this profitable? I know, I'll tie it to comic book IP." Arthur Flex at NO POINT in the first one becomes The Joker. Even when he kills RD's character he's nervous and whiny. That isn't The Joker. You can change a lot about the world of a character, and you can change a lot about the image of a character in order to make an alternate take on a character, but you can't change THE CHARACTER TRAITS. I also think that most people don't understand the ACTUAL subtext of the first film, it was Todd Phillips crying victim because he got attacked for making homophobic/trans jokes in The Hangover series. He's Arthur Fleck in his own mind and he kills the critics at the end. He fucked up because he made the character an incel and didn't make that connection to the real life violence. What we're watching now is him sloppily trying to deflect from that.
The clowns that hated the good one hate the bad one? What a surprise. Would they hate it if Joker was a black trans man? Who knows? I will bet my life on "no" but who knows! (And yes, Joker 2 is just bad, which it was obvious the moment the clown girl was announced and therefore a musical confirmed)
Hating Joker 2 has become the trend and it's getting ridiculous. Like you said, I don't think it's great but far more interesting compared to most comic book movies.
Stop comparing this to movies like Requiem for a Dream or Se7en. While those are hard to watch a second time, they were utterly captivating the first time you watched it. This movie, on the other, is a bonafide, joyless piece of shit movie that aims to actively torture the audience.
@@David-tl6ix I definitely enjoyed it and thought it was very well done. The concert aspect of it, especially, was masterfully shot to be really immersive with tons of great POV camerawork. I wouldn't necessarily say it's great film. It does have some flaws. But it was a highly enjoyable afternoon at the theater for me.
@@David-tl6ixI've seen a lot of good movies in 2024, some great movies even, Trap was certainly not one of those imo 😂 I thought it was pretty bad even by Shyamalan's standards.
![[Limbus Company - PV] Chapter.7 - Oblivion](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/VUpkXPkvoxU/mqdefault.jpg)
My conspiracy is Amanda got pregnant to avoid seeing this movie, she's 10 steps ahead
big brain move tbh
Dobb mobb
I mean she does have a thing for Joaquin Phoenix though
The last 20 minutes of this conversation is wonderful and enlightening - its a rewatchable. Thank you Van and Sean!!!
Just give me the Van, Sean, Amanda, and CR weekly movie pod. It’d feed families.
Please have Van on more often! Really enjoyed this conversation.
You guys were clicking and echoing in synergy the whole episode but especially those last 20 minutes. I have been an avid listener of the show and this is for sure one of the educated peaks for me as a listener. This is that good shit !
yup, this is one the best episodes in a long time, this is why I listen.
we're so back!
Oddly enough, I read the first film as nihilistic, not this film. Arthur was able to shed the "Joker" label and somewhat be at peace with just being Arthur - a person who did horrible things, but is not 'crazy' or a 'symbol' or a 'spectacle' or any other label other than 'human'. Whether he died in prison of old age, died via electric chair, or died via shank - didn't really matter, which is why I don't find the ending shocking or disappointing at all. To me, it was just an indication that society itself had still not released him of those labels.
This is maybe the best hour I've listened to in a minute
A Joker 2 with Harley should have been modeled on Natural Born Killers...a real early 90s Tarantino vibe, and it could have been a commentary on celebrity, violence, media narratives, and in that they could explore toxic attraction and dangers of making a hero out of someone like Arthur.
Oliver Stone has his own vibe...
@@chaunguyen5157 Yes true! But in general, that style would have been way more entertaining and meaningful than whatever this is.
@@jeffreyroedel9804 For sure! Haha, I'm a fan of both directors, so I thought it was unfair to say QT owns the genre. Good point though!
Natural Born Killers was an awful film that Tarantino deeply despised. He wrote the screenplay but thought Stone's film was truly awful and much different than the script he wrote. There are several stories that led to long held grudges and disputes Tarantino had with many involved with the film. If you just want an uglier version of Bonnie & Clide, then there are better inspirations.
@@justinmj6586 NBK is a flawed movie, but that style would have been far better for Joker and Harley than Folie a Deux turned out to be.
“A well-made not a good movie” that sums it up👍
You have to be a special kind of bad to make a bad musical starring Lady Gaga.
I would’ve gladly kept listening to Van and Sean on an afternoon long pod. Great exchange, especially towards the end.
Great convo gentleman, loved the discussion at the end
What a terrible movie. Also, it further solidifies that the only reason the first movie was good was because it was a rip-off of King of Comedy and Taxi Driver - movies made by a superior director with an actual artistic vision.
It’s hard to articulate the precise feeling this film evoked in me, though I know it had something to do with the nagging suspicion that I was, at that moment, the only person in the world. Not only, but isolated. The film was flawed, Christ Almighty was it flawed, but there’s a point where that becomes irrelevant, especially when you’re confronted with something that feels as though it was engineered specifically to speak to you. Let’s start with the two leads, who critics in their wave of disapproval forgot to mention, actors that have more talent in their thumbs than 99% of hollywood. Both are now taken for granted. Gaga’s voice, now a cultural touchstone, is as always amazing. She’s also playfully unhinged, playing a sultry game with Joaquin Phoenix as he turns the joker into an even more miserable version of Johnny Cash.
Critics and fans are going to hate this film for two reasons. For one thing, it’s a musical that leans into a lounge fantasy instead of engaging in the violence of the first film. And that’s a big part of the problem (or, if you’re like me, the appeal). The film’s refusal to care what you think of it, to say nothing of its evident disdain for both its audience and the larger human race, means it will inevitably be misunderstood. The film has less violence, more singing and is somehow darker in theme.
But the thing is in five years, when the outrage has subsided and people are ready to be a little more honest with themselves, the cult of film lovers will come around. They’ll realize what Jake Fay knew from the beginning-this is the better of the two films.
There are also too many shades of my favorite things here: a prison romance that evokes The Executioner’s Song, the courtroom musical sequences reminiscent of Bjok’s Dancer in the Dark. It’s a wildly subversive film, one that never once panders to its audience or even bothers pretending to like them. It feels, in that way, like it was a tiny little gift to me.
The last 20 minutes was absolutely beautiful conversation… please bring van on more often
This movie sounds like it wasn't meant to be enjoyed, but endured. There are so many books in the DC catalog that exist that any future director could potentially borrow from that there's really no excuse to make a poor Joker film. Two off the top of my head are "Joker" and "Batman Damned", by Brian Azzarello. Not only is the artwork fantastic, but both stories are well worth reading.
Todd Phillips has done it again. Taken a huge hit and fucked it with a sequel
Tell that to his bank account
@@thewilliams714 Yes his bank account is abundant, but mostly because of how the first films hit, not the subsequent films that sucked. lol
This movie was such a slap in the face to comic book fans, that might make fanboys look at the recent MCU movies more fondly.
Nah, those MCU movies are just as bad, just for different reasons lol
The best thing about Joker was that it spawned Grouch, the greatest SNL phony commercial of all time.
I'm with Amanda on Kris Kristofferson.
What did she say?
@@jacquesmoran3901 That he could 'get it' till the last day
Oooh wow this guy directed Road Trip..
If you remove the whole Joker persona/expectations would it make a better movie?
For everyone saying the synergy and conversation was rocking and fluid- congratulate, Sean !!!
He could converse with a monk who’s on a 10 year vow of silence
These two had one of the best conversations about half way through about culture half way through.
Bonus - Sean broke out the worst ‘transmogrified’.
😂😂😂
These guys are wonderdul
This show is so good when both hosts want to talk about movies.
It takes a special talent to make Lady Gaga boring
I'm 1000% in the just make a "good movie". No I don't care about intention or taking big swings. Matrix was a massive swing, but also a good movie. Same could be said with Everything Everywhere or dozens and dozens of other works. I'm going to the movie for myself, not the audience or the director. If I'm not entertained, then that's all there is to it.
admit it's a hit and we'll go on from there.
as they sang their finale I hope it was your alley 😂
that was entertainment
"I don't get it" 🤣 5:59
Fantastic conversation, one of BP's best episodes ever. Ummm but wtf is going on with the decor in the studio? Big 1st week in a dorm room energy. Can we hang some of those frames? Isn't Sean a Mets fan?
If I wanted to see Lady Gaga in concert I would go to see Lady Gaga in concert, but not like this. Wasted opportunity to give us another amazing Joker movie. SMFH
fantastic conversation .
If this movie results in the Edgelords of the world being pissed off, then i love this movie.
I’ve never been so uninterested in a sequel in my life. If Todd Phillips wants an ego-driven downer vanity project, have him start without a popular IP.
Pretty great conversation. Well done, gents.
Break out the last segment. Great discussion all around.
I'm really disappointed after watching Joker 2 because of the idea of making a sequel, which meant they ruined the first movie on purpose. Furthermore, I don't think this movie hates me, actually it is an insult for those people, who liked the first Joker, I hope they do not use Joker: Folie á Deux as an example of why people hate musicals.
Van is 100% the best movie commentator on The Ringer
Phillips made something special here. It is far more compelling and creatively interesting than the first film. Never for a second was I bored in any way shape or form. See it in Imax 1.43:1 70mm if you can
It’s funny I felt this same way about the first film… I appreciate the craft of it but overall I felt that Phillips and co “hated us” in the first one too. Interesting to see the sequel be so clear about that decision and aggressive. Also interesting to note that Bradley cooper jumped off this film and was not involved when he played such a large role in the first film.
But Taxi Driver and King of Comedy are masterpieces, right?
Love it when it's these two chopping it up. But I know Van has to make Sean break at least twice when it comes to something weird or sexual. So before I press play - 0/U on making Sean break, I say over 1.5.
Why couldn't Joaquin have dropped out of this one?
Let's be honest everyone online has been waiting to destroy this film upon release
Having seen the movie, and not going by the many think pieces about what this film represents overall, if taken at face value its a really good companion piece to the first in where Arthur and the Media examine who this Joker is to where at the end perhaps we see the modern & well known interation of The Joker found in DC. In this world there must be a Joker in Gotham and we do see that happen.
Tood philips doesnt get to do the "i hate that people love arthur and that people think he is the hero" he doesnt get to distance himself from that woth joker 2 because he made arthur the hero and cool by making him "Joker" if he wanted a story of a guy beaten down by american society, he should have made that but by calling that joker he made arthur a lot more than that. He got 100 mil dollars from it so shut up take the rest of it.
Agreed. Haven’t seen part 2 (have no interest after the first) but it sounds like the disdain being directed towards the audience by Phillips is coming from within
Honestly Vans description of this movie really makes me want to watch it.
Go for it
Save that feeling for any other movie, unfortunately
It's bad but worth a watch
It's funny how Joker: Deux à L'Orange came out one week after another ambitious, un-commercial auteur project in Megalopolis. But the reason the latter works is because the latter was made by Francis Ford Coppola, while the former was made by a guy who made boner comedies in the 2000's.
People are being silly with the hate; I get it's not for everyone and I think it's very flawed but it's nowhere near this dumpster fire like people are making it out to be. It's a decent movie.
Me encanto la discusion, Joker 2 es una pelicula no diria mala, frustante bien hecha.
35:46 i think she signed on because she saw it would allow her to smoke on screen a lot.
Here’s my theory- There are so many not good/blah movies today and Amanda and Sean (and the others) would have a tough show if they came down on every movie. Meanwhile everyone praises movies of the past and we want those kind of movies today. So when Sean says he had fun with Trap, there’s gonna be blow back. It’s a meh movie at best. How about we get a Signs or Sixth Sense instead of spending a lot of money for a lame Trap movie?
I love their discussion of movies, but what they have to choose from really waste their intelligence. Literally none of the movies from the past five (ten?) make their hall of fames.
What was the Netflix film Sean recommended?
Great show!
Phenomenal convo
1:03:20 Is it about "Scream"?
Do we think it was Coogler Van was talking about at the end?
Todd Phillips is a fine technician but a muddy voice and Sean's points about his belief that DEUX is an attempt to clarify JOKER on Phillips' part speaks to that. I have also long thought Todd seems thin-skinned and self-inflated, much like Michael Bay ala the "Where's my Oscar for PEARL HARBOR??" years. Mid-talent with a grand ego whose reach overmatches his grasp. YMMV.
He’s just working with great cinematographers. That’s it
I really liked the first movie and will never understand the conversations that movie created. I liked this breakdown of the movie with Van much better than when he has to walk on egg shells with Steve and Jomi who refuse to talk about the movie without letting their politics get in the way, like I get you're a liberal (so am I) but everything doesn't need to be discussed outside of the realm of art itself.
Great chemistry here with Sean and Van good stuff
Hot take: Megalopolis was a more fun movie than Joker: Folie à Deux and Saturday Night. (And Megalopolis wasn't good.)
Can we talk about the elephant in the room? Van Latham is loser. He reminds me of Steve Urkel cosplaying as Wyatt Earp. Whatever you’re going for simply isn’t working out Van.
"watch you when you can jet sky after! jajaja gran definicion para ese tipo de peliculas que te dejan K.O Synecdoche, New York (juju!)
Hey guys did you that Zack is Amanda's husband.
Great show
Well they explained why Bill is afraid to watch The Big Lebowski
other than because is meaningless trash?
I dug it. 🤷♂️
This sounds quite lame. However can I pick at something you said about the original being an “incel nightmare?” This was the media’s buzz about it in 2019 and even then it didn’t fit. Is Arthur consumed by his lack of success with women and channels that into a twisted resentment of women and society at large? He’s definitely twisted but not for that reason. He’s so hatefully misogynistic that he imagines going on a pleasant and very tame date with Zazie beetz… (sarcasm)
Fair to suggest there’s a link between men who can’t live out their basic hopes & dreams (eg. A pleasant date) and incels
Great movie
7/10 It's far better than most comic book movies.
i was today years old when i found out Van produced one of my favorite short films ever, Two Distant Strangers. been a huge Joey Bada$$ fan for over 10 years, so to be binging Ringer pods and not even realizing the connection is just 🤣
This along with marvel. I’m officially burnt out with the genre,couldn’t even get myself to watch the Deadpool movie.
how is Joker even remotely related to the comic book action genre?
@@edgardoMurnia thought of it as some cool alternate origin story for joker, first movie was a 7/10, enjoyed some things. This movie just feels like joker 1.5 but a musical and purposely hard to get through.
@@Sled27don Loved the first one. Won't watch a musical.
how is Joker even remotely related to the comic book action genre?
@@edgardoMurnia honestly it’s not, the character itself is almost nothing like the comic book version. Joker did not need a sequel
@@Sled27don Exactly. that's why I don't understand how this movie or the first relate in any way about your "burnt out".
That's all. Not defending this joke of a movie (I despise musicals, which are for theaters not movies) nor the first one, which I love, but it's a King of Comedy meets Taxi Driver with Joker skin.
my whole twitter feed is full cbm watchers that only watch cbms, so they're just on a never ending hate train for it.
but after the past few years of watching this podcast, watching a bunch of movies and making music of my own, the way yall described Joker 2 makes me want to watch it now.
a big contention seems to be that it's so nihlist and so, must be pointless. but why would nihilism be inherently be pointless? why does it not have a place in the range of emotion that a movie can express? why can optimism exist on its own, while nihilism can't?
Some other comment is saying that Todd Phillips can't critique the idolization of the joker, because he made Arthur seem like a hero, when in reality, they simply could not separate stories from their actual values, completely blinded by the fact that a narrative made them sympathize with a murderer.
Now tell me, why, when a certain actor spins a narrative that he was actually innocent, despite being convicted 12 of the 14 incidents of physical violence against their wife a year prior, suddenly that actor is perceived to be innocent by the general public anyways... even though the only case he won was a defamation case against her opinion piece article, instead of the actual assault case... and if anything, he is even more idolized afterward. I just feel like that gives the critique and platform that the movie has validity.
anyways, I guess I haven't watched the movie yet, but all the criticism I'm hearing of it online has nothing to do with the actual filmmaking, but just the fact that Joker dies at the end, so I feel like I can comment on the shallowness of those critiques with a shallow critique of my own.
I’m here for Van. That is all.
Awful movie
I don't want to be that guy but you take Amanda out of one episode and the quality of conversation just reaches a new height. Probably one of the best one hour that I have listened to this year. Especially the last 20 mins perfectly explained what I have been feeling about movie discourse for quite some time now. More Van on the The Big Picture please!
Really good pod and conversation. This shows that this pod is better without Amnada. Having someone who has real ideas instead of "I'm happy for you" or "this didn't work for me and that's ok" is refreshing
Listen, let's cut the shit, the main problem with this film and the original is that it has NOTHING to do with The Joker from the comics. Watching the first one I felt, man they wrote a movie and said "How can I make this profitable? I know, I'll tie it to comic book IP." Arthur Flex at NO POINT in the first one becomes The Joker. Even when he kills RD's character he's nervous and whiny. That isn't The Joker. You can change a lot about the world of a character, and you can change a lot about the image of a character in order to make an alternate take on a character, but you can't change THE CHARACTER TRAITS. I also think that most people don't understand the ACTUAL subtext of the first film, it was Todd Phillips crying victim because he got attacked for making homophobic/trans jokes in The Hangover series. He's Arthur Fleck in his own mind and he kills the critics at the end. He fucked up because he made the character an incel and didn't make that connection to the real life violence. What we're watching now is him sloppily trying to deflect from that.
The clowns that hated the good one hate the bad one? What a surprise.
Would they hate it if Joker was a black trans man? Who knows? I will bet my life on "no" but who knows!
(And yes, Joker 2 is just bad, which it was obvious the moment the clown girl was announced and therefore a musical confirmed)
No interest in seeing this movie. Sounds like a drag.
It's actually pretty decent but hating it is trendy for whatever reason.
The singing was so pointless
Joker 2 is a perfectly acceptable film. No, it's not great, no it's not "good", but I think Phillips still did a pretty good job overall.
Hating Joker 2 has become the trend and it's getting ridiculous. Like you said, I don't think it's great but far more interesting compared to most comic book movies.
I’m never supporting any material that has that person STILL trying to crowbar the cowboy hat
Exactly how I saw it too! It’s a mean spirited Gremlins 2 lol
Stop comparing this to movies like Requiem for a Dream or Se7en. While those are hard to watch a second time, they were utterly captivating the first time you watched it. This movie, on the other, is a bonafide, joyless piece of shit movie that aims to actively torture the audience.
I didn't know louisiana had the best seafood in the world. I wonder if Van even has a passport
One of the worst movies I’ve ever seen
You must not watch many movies.
@@nickbarcheck1019 waaaa nice response
Actual cowboys don’t wear the hat inside
They do if they're hiding a bad hairline.
@@SpideySensei72uuf.
This movie sound fucking terrible😂
Skip to the End he dies at the end !!
I do think Sean occasionally has insane takes on films, but "Trap is a good movie" isn't one of them. Trap *is* a good movie.
Wrong. Trap is a great movie. One of the very few that came out this year
@@David-tl6ix I definitely enjoyed it and thought it was very well done. The concert aspect of it, especially, was masterfully shot to be really immersive with tons of great POV camerawork. I wouldn't necessarily say it's great film. It does have some flaws. But it was a highly enjoyable afternoon at the theater for me.
@@David-tl6ixI've seen a lot of good movies in 2024, some great movies even, Trap was certainly not one of those imo 😂 I thought it was pretty bad even by Shyamalan's standards.
@@David-tl6ixWhat did you like about the movie, Trap? I thought it kinda sucked lol
Not having to hear Amanda talk about herself = priceless. Big pic will be amazing for the next year
Agreed. Just give her all of 2025 off to recover.
van makes every video unwatchable
Trash movie, as was the first.
and Taxi Driver and King of Comedy
Sean is such a tool and Van needs to stop with the cowboy hat, but then again he also sucks.
Your review channel is trash and that's why nobody watches it.
Why?
8646 Jenkins Ports