Arcane Denial is tier S in my playgroup because it’s the only counter spell that doesn’t make people target me for the rest of the game for ruining their fun
I have never disagreed with a take quite as much as Negate's placement. The fact that it can and is a very reasonable include in any deck with blue INCLUDING five color decks is understated here. It belonged in B, whenever I make any deck with blue there is almost always room for a Negate. Sure it doesn't overperform but it consistently gets the job done with the least concern to your mana excluding free counters.
Correction: Foil just says "and another card". It doesn't necessarily have to be a blue card like most other pitch counterspells. Also, I'd have to hard disagree with the placement of Muddle. The density of hatebears / silver bullets and even X spell bombs with 2 cmc that wizards prints with other constructed format sideboards in mind at your disposal is incredible.
I think the point with muddle is that it's a constrained tutor for 3 when the gold standard (demonic tutor) is unconstrained for 2. I run it in my Urza deck and it's great but you have to have enough cards in that 2 slot to ensure you hit a big pay off. I would say at least 3 2 CMC cards which are very useful to you and that isn't always a sure thing in casual commander decks.
I use it when the 2 slot is very important to me and build my deck to have at least 1 2cmc spell for important categories like cyc rift (board wipe), reality shift (removal), pull from tomorrow (draw). In those cases the opportunity cost is very low.
Narset's Reversal is a combo card. It seldom works as a counter to stuff that your opponent is doing. Narset's Reversal is part of my Approach of the Second Sun play.
narset's reversal feels soo good to cast against someones overloaded cyclonic rift, its like a reverse uno card lol. and now they are tapped out and have to discard
I would put Arcane Denial in A. It is the first I put in decks, somewhat because I have lots because it is affordable. But it is so playable even in like 5 colors.
How many counterspells in A weren't free tho? That's why it's a B for me. If you've watched a lot of these their lists there are a lot of perfectly playable almost staples that end up in B and C. Like counterspell for example. Not the best but it's still getting out in decks of all kinds of budgets.
@@Fausto_4841 I hear you on a lot of that. I love force of will, I will play it frequently, but there are more decks that I play Arcane Denial. Force of will and a lot of the free counter spells need you to be able to commit to a lot of blue. In 4 or 5 color decks I am not running those but I am running arcane denial. It can go in any deck with even a splash of blue. That is why I rate it so fairly. Also it doesn't get any salt. The OP free counters can get salty, but with arcane denial, some people are even cool with getting the two cards instead.
I have used wash away so many times with great success. it feels good because to me it reads counter target commander and you have no idea how awesome that can be to counter a big commander for 1 blue. I include it in every blue deck I use and I have never felt bad about it.
@@chrisgroves8891 Wash away counters, so the spell card go to the graveyard. In the case of a commander, it's likely going back to the command zone instead and its commander tax increases (you delay it, but it'll cost more mana)
Narset's Reversal to me is a pretty terrible counterspell, a pretty great spell-copier, and a FANTASTIC defense against somebody countering your potential game-winning Instant/Sorcery.
Not that terrible as you essentially make them have to pay double the mana to play their spell it's basically a better version of Mana Tithe while also pulling a pseudo opposition agent so you benefit from the castor's spell basically it is just a Stax card at that point especially if you can return it to your hand so essentially you are locking that person out from ever playing that spell till they get more mana plus again you are benefitting from it. And since it does not actually say counter spells that can't be countered will be countered by it that is the biggest plus from it
Really happy to see you guys come around on negate. Maybe you were exaggerating before, but I've heard you call it "unplayable" a lot. I would argue that Negate can be better than Counterspell, but it depends heavily on your deck. In mono blue or heavy blue, counterspell is obviously better. But, if blue is a much smaller portion of your deck, then negate is a lot stronger. Being forced to hold up 2 blues when you have a limited amount of total blue can prevent you from expanding your board state, whereas holding up 1 blue and one other is much more manageable. Also, as you stated before, that 1 generic mana could be reduced causing negate to only cost 1 blue, which again is much easier to hold up than 2 mana. And lastly, the only thing negate can't counter is creatures, which is the easiest type of permanent to remove. If your deck has any amount of black in it, then you aren't really looking to counter a creature anyway. You would rather save your counters for permanents you can't easily target like enchantments. Or if you have green, go wide, or go tall, then you're probably saving your counter for boardwipes or targeted removal spells. I agree negate is a C. But I think whether or not it's worse than Counterspell depends entirely on how much blue is in your deck.
Listening and evaluating I think the weakness of the tier list is that there are two lists going simultaneously (three if you count budget) and those are how strong it is when you cast it (in the right deck) and how many decks does it go in. One reason I rate Arcane Denial so high is I think it can go in basically any deck that it is legal in.
Honestly, red elemental blast is an amazing option with how prevalent blue is. Not sure how Dovin's veto outranks negate by that much; two colors is a big ask similar to the double blue on counterspell, even for can't be countered.
Thanks so much for the amazing content as always! I really like arcane denial because yes your giving your opponent two cards but it feels so good drawing of a counterspell!👍
Distainful Stroke can be a lot more impactful in casual metas. It basically reads "counter something good" Would also love to see a list of Creature ETBs that can always counter spells like mystic snake or usually counter spells like torrential gearhulk.
Wash away also hits cards from Impulse draw, so if you have a lot of Red, or just a troublesome Prosper player in your group its definitely not poop tier. That said, I do generally agree with it not being very good, but maybe D tier instead of poop.
I think they are very low on Wash Away, casting outside of hand happens pretty frequently (especially with commanders) and even if it doesn’t happen it’s still not a dead card
The problem with [[Wash Away]] is the issue of resource management in multiple player formats. In Brawl I use it to counter my opponent’s commander all the time. It’s super narrow but I’m always countering or removing their commander. Doing so almost always puts me ahead. In 4 player formats removing or countering a commander puts me and them down in comparison to the other two players. In Commander often I just want to add to the board instead.
I'm new to magic(just started playing last month). Your channel has been super educational. I've been binge watching your channel non stop! Keep up the good work.
Am I the only one that doesn't look at narset's reversal as a counterspell? It's a protection piece that contributes greatly to storm/magecraft. I get giving a D as a counterspell but the card can do a lot.
This list rates it as a counterspell first, as in dealing with the immediate threat completely and against a broad number of targets. I personally only have it in my Krark//Sakashima deck because I really care about the copy portion
I have tried Wash Away and about 20 percent of the time I get the 1 mana cost and about half of that time I didn't have the three. So like 1 in 10 you get better than a cancel.
I have a Rhoda Geist Avenger + Timin deck. It’s a Voltron style deck with a tapping down creatures theme. I love Cryptic Command in the deck because the tap all creatures clause is actually useful to me. So if I hold up mana for cryptic command and don’t have anything to counter, I just fire it off before my turn and kill a player Obviously it’s not a great card in most decks, just sharing a situation where it is
Will you guys do updated videos on these topics ? With power creep thriving in magic and a new set every two weeks , I feel like there’s a ton of newer cards
Love the list. Makes me reconsider a couple I play, like disallow. I don't really think of narset's reversal as a counterspell, though, except in a counterspell battle to copy my own counterspell or the spell I'm trying to resolve. I think of it more like a protection spell
I think disallow is higher than they put it. Yes it's for 3, so it isn't S tier, but this can counter huge abilities that you normally wouldn't be able to interact with. (This is from a commander perspective).
Y'all could compare all these 3 mana 'with upside' counter spells to murder cuz that kinda hits hard. ALSO. Maybe cut up poop tier into poop and shiny poop. The shiny poop is like, flusterstorm, because an archetype or at least many decks polish it up to A-S.
Wash away also counters spells cast from exile. If you really think about it, there are a lot of instances where a spell is cast from somewhwere other than hand.
Opponent casts Commander Cast Wash away for 1 Me: Your commander is DIRTAY, very poopy baby and needs a bath back to the command zone for you! Wash away, almost like it was made for commander since your commander is rarely in your hand... :P
I think I'd want reasons to cast it other than the commander, otherwise would justify Tales' End to target abilities and legendary spells. Of course, I have to look at my own decks as targets, 3 of my 18 decks are where it's good (Krark/Sakashima, First Sliver, Kethis the Hidden Hand) - not a good ratio there
Imagine this janky magical christmas land scenario: you cast Approach of the Second Sun, then Narset’s Reversal targeting Approach. Also you guys missed Saw It Coming
I run jhiora cheerios, because of that FOW is not particularly useful because I have too many critical blue spells I don't want to pitch. Best case scenario, I pitch a fabricate, worst case, time spiral. Arcane denial and pact are the only two counters I run because they are less taxing on my mana on my turn when i'd likely need to defend.
One of my favorites is Whirlwind Denial for stopping my opponents from getting a million triggers. Way better than Dissallow. Great against death triggers, landfall, burn, +1/+1 counters, and so much more.
Love the list. I wonder, why is "render silent" not on it? My personal favorite counter spell, for a single white more they cant cast anything during that turn. Which is really good if they have allot of mana and cards (which happens during commander) basically skipping their turn. Not good enough, since normal counterspell and Dovin's is a B and C?
Disallow being in Poop tier is crazy. What other spell can counter Grave Titan OR stop it from making TWO 2/2 zombies if you draw it after Grave Titan has already hit the field? (Seriously, though, stopping abilities is a HUGE upside over Cancel. I've found that abilities tend to be part of instant win combos even more often than spells, and they keep printing more and more uncounterable abilities like Channel. It can be a meta call, and probably shouldn't be above D tier, but as long as you're playing a deck that plans to keep mana open every turn anyway, I'd usually cut stifle or Tale's End before I cut Disallow.)
@@V2ULTRAKill lol, well, to be fair, that "usually" is doing a lot of work, here. If you're just running "oops, all counterspells" then yeah, stifle and/or tales end are better, but if you're running less than 10 but more than 2, disallow is a better option. Like I said, I wouldn't put it above D tier, it's just not poop tier. There are situations where you want it.
Counterspell should be a C. It is the spell you compare all other "Counter" spells to. It does what it does well. It is the grand daddy of all counter magic. Lol Edit: I think I meant B but I'm tired. At least I didn't forget everyone's birthday
Rewind is amazing. It gives you counter magic on the turn immediately after you which can throw off opponents because now you can untap and bluff more counter spells or even have the mana for additional plays. Let’s say someone tries to stop you during your turn while you have high tide up, now you have 8 mana worth of mana thanks to untapping your lands.
I’m making a raff capashen deck with the restriction of every card being historic or instant (or a card with flash or text that says you can cast it at instant speed you get the point) and because of that rewind is gonna be like THE best card in the deck because the mana I get back I can always spend even when it isn’t my turn. Also this tier list is very helpful because although my deck will be very on the board (probably artifact creatures since I love tapping my prices of cardboard) i will still have tons of interaction because I have the flexibility to hold up interaction just in case and if not needed just advance my board state right before my turn. I WILL INSTALL THE FEAR OF GOD INTO MY LGS!!!
I run Azorius. Nobody EVER sees Mana Tithe coming. I've had opponents look at my hand, see a mana tithe in it, and then just forget about it and tap out playing a big spell anyway.
I actually cast wash away without cleave to win a draft game once... my opponent was like "I've never seen that card used that way before". good vid nerds, thanks for all the good content, i love these tier vids.
What’s your opinion on arcmages charm? 3U instant choose one -counter target spell -target player draws two -gain control of target nonland permanent with mana value one or less
I have to take a hot take here, and more because of the reasoning being that this is directed towards casual commander. Counterspell should be a solid B at least, arguably an A, because it counters ANY spell without any downside. For example swan song costs 1 blue mana and can only counter enchantments, instant or sorceries and gives the opponent a bird. In a casual format where average Joe may play a dragon tribal, or artifact matters deck this counterspell might be a dead card in hand and tho it's rated above counterspell only because it costs 1 mana less? I'm not arguing that it is at par at the best counterspell ever printed(FoW *cough*), but taking in consideration that the downside of a free cast comes with exiling a card from your hand in a precon level / slightly upgraded decks pod, might as well be a harsher cost that one more blue mana
What you guys think about Desertion? I mean. Its high cost, but its a good counter and you can stop and steal combos, steal commanders, big creatures and artifacts.
Love the work guys! I could see the reasoning for placement on most of these, but I was a little confused about your Cryptic v. Mystic Confluence placement. It seemed like you valued the fact that Confluence affected the board when you didn't need a mana leak, but that didn't seem to come up too much with Cryptic? Just curious, and wish you guys the best!
I should also add that Narset's Reversal is good if you are using it in response to someone's tutor so a less feels bad opposition agent but otherwise it depends on the type of spell they are playing as obviously you are going to play it if they are playing a rampant growth waste their two mana and get a free land like it is so versatile it is worth having it in your deck as you can target your own cards to basically have a bit more expensive copy for redundancy
Nice just picked up a handful of these. I think Mystic Confluence and Sublime Epiphany work best in spell copy decks like Kalamax so you get the max out of them
I would put flusterstorm at least at d, people forget it can target multiple spells with its copies and there have definitely been moments where my opponents stack there instants on top of someone's sorcery like Teferis protection in response to a board wipe and being able to say no to both the board wipe and his protection just feels great.
@@NitpickingNerds Well not just in that case, obviously, that's just an example. Not to mention it's also only one mana and people almost always tap out early game to play instants and sorceries like ramp style cards or tutors. I'd probably agree more for poop tier if it was a 2 mana card, but 1 mana feels like a decent argument for D at the least imo.
wash away is amazing tbh. stops cascade, stops so many things that just "happen". making high cost commanders cost more when someone trys to dark ritual a commander out. even low cost commanders like animar just being stopped on first arrival to stopping gravetide type decks just feels good. its been a pretty solid card for me. the cleave is a big bonus but playing mana willy nilly just to end with a random blue open makes opponents feel like you don't have an answer to their play.
I just put rewind in my Kadena morph deck. It does contain stuff like Leyline of anticipation, vedalken orrery, vivien champion of the wilds, and a bunch of face down creatures that are ready to turn face up. It's a great way to be a threat, while also maintaining my pwn game plan.
What would you rate desertion? The ability to take your opponents commander is devastating!! Also most of the cards on this list go from ok to absolutely amazing in a baral deck 😈
Great list, totally agree with most of it. When i fist started playing i 100% thought arcane denial was poop, you guys have totally changed my mind about that. I've never played Dovin's veto so maybe im underrating that as well, but when you put it a whole tier above counterspell i said... 🤨
I'm not sure if you guys covered this but where would you put render silent? It's one white one blue and says counter target spell, then the spells controller can't cast spells this turn.
Wash Away is 1 mana counter target commander, it does not function as a Cancel 90% of the time like you said, because you're supposed to hold it up until they cast their commander. And no, that's not a fringe case because, and you mentioned in this very same video, the entire premise of the format is to cast the commander. Now, is that worth the opportunity cost of a catd slot? That's another matter, but this is a good card for what it does.
I’ve never once had to play wash away for 3. There is so much graveyard play, exile casts, and commanders hitting the board in my area that it’s always insane value
@@jorjor500 graveyard and exile become less prominent the higher you go, eventually reaching a point where the only use of the card is commanders or cascade, meaning its either a cancel or a brick if you dont get it before the threat commander is already in play
@@V2ULTRAKill there are tons of decks in high power/Cedh that play around their graveyard. That’s not counting other cards such as underworld breach or Ragavan triggers. Even then, countering a powerful commander for 1 is always good, and it’s an ok CS for other card types depending on the situation and deck. Leaving three mana open for certain archetypes is the norm .
I decided to try You Find the Villains Lair in my Yennett deck as a counterspell that does something if I hit it off of her trigger and aside from that the ability to hold up counter magic or card selection both has been pretty nice, the 3 mana held up never goes to waste.
2:20 - didn't spot Amber until you pointed her out I assume Mana Leak would be like mid-D? It can hit everything but abilities but they can pay mana to counter it
Pact of Negation is my favourite. Simply because if I have it casting my combo pieces for Breya, Etherium Shaper it's perfect against procrastinators 😈
Soft disagree on wash away. In competitive games (just under cEDH) I have seen this card perform well. In 8-9 power games that rely on commanders and end on turn 6-7, delaying someone’s commander for one turn can be pretty rough for them. Also useful against decks that cast frequently from graveyard/exile. Obviously meta dependent card though. In mine its probably C tier.
Wash Away is basically counter target commander. That's really good for one mana. Especially against bigger cmc commanders. That takes away an opponent's turn most times and taxes them the following turn. For just one mana. Bad take. It's not hard to hold up one blue mana as the turn goes around the table.
Great list! Would be helpful though if you guys kept the image of the card you're talking about on screen the whole time you're talking about it! It's hard to remember all the ones I don't know by heart once they've left
Narset's Reversal is in Kalamax. You can play it over and over with Kalamax' first ability. 1. Opponent casts a spell 2. Cast Narset's Reversal 3. Get a 1. copy of Narset's Reversal, targeting Narset's Reversal 4. The Copy resolves: Narset's Reversal is in your Hand and you get a 2. copy of Narset's Reversal, targeting the opponent's spell 5. The 2. copy of Narset's Reversal resolves: Opponent's spell gets back to his hand and you get the copy of the opponent's spell
What about deflecting swat. I know it’s not a counterspell but, I think most people do use it as a counter spell. Have any of you guys been saved by a deflecting swat?
So I play Envelop in decks where blue is limited and I have a heavy board presence in a taped out control decks. I run it along Swansong for how little mana I can keep open. Boardwipes are the only thing I am worried about in my ninja deck where my mana is being used on my turn.. If I need to recast creatures and sneaking in ninjas on my turn I can't hold up much mana for counter spells.
Where are all of the blue+x counterspells or non-blue ones? Plasm Capture, Mystic Snake, or Lapse of Certainty and Mana Tithe (best feeling as a white deck)!!
I use narsetts reversal in spell slinger decks because I can rely on copying my own storm spells to cast them again after and only once have I ever been able to use it as a counterspell and that was on an expropriate
I want Beezy to build a 3 to 5 color deck, built around Hivemind. The idea of the deck would be to get Hivemind on the field as fast as possible, and then casting a Pact spell to put a "loses the game" trigger on the stack during the opponents upkeep. If they don't have the colors of mana to pay the cost then they just lose the game. You might recognize the idea from Saffron Olive playing this deck in Modern. But if it could be pulled off in commander then it would be one of the most epic ways to win in all of Magic lol
Summary Dismissal, Tale's End, Voidslime is dual colored but the same as disallow. Baral tribal counterspell probably adjusts the tiers but it's a niche deck and honestly that is a shark typhoon win, or the enchantment that gives you constructs for instants and sorceries, name escapes me atm.
This is a weird video for me. Maybe I'm not understanding your tier rating, but some of these spells you have in C/D tier are really powerful (Counterspell, Cryptic Command, even Rewind) and it makes no sense to me why these wouldn't be high picks in decks that are built around draw/go control game plans. If I am playing for the long game, I am happy as can be when my opponents do nothing threatening for a turn. If I hold up counterspell or rewind and I don't need to use either early in the game, I'm really really happy. I'm not the one getting time walked here. I'm time walking the board. I got a free land drop, moved the clock farther down the road, and didn't need to use any resources. I'm sure a lot of this comes down to meta. In slower, non-combo focused commander games, the slower the game progresses the better of my control decks will do. Playing something for 4 mana on my turn and needing Force of Will to defend it is rarely going to be what wins me the game versus holding up counters/draw spells, building a million mana and then unloading threats on subsequent turns with those counters still in my hand to protect them.
I use nurses reversal to undo a counterspell on my wincon by countering my own spell and getting my torment of hailfire as a copy. Could also just reversal a win con feels hella good
I absolutely LOVE Wash Away. Countering commanders is definitely its best use, if an opponent has a low cmc commander or plans to rush it out, Wash Away absolutely destroys their momentum for one mana held up. Imagine a spell that is just “counter commander” for 1, which I would argue is a very playable card; Wash Away is much better than that. Definitely not fringe, loads of spells get cast not from hand over the course of a game. And even if that never happens (which is impossible in a commander game because of casting from command zone) it’s still not a dead card!
arcane denial can also be used late game if you have a 1 drop that is not really helpful and you counter it yourself and draw 3 cards.
Clever move!
arcane denial + krark is sick
@@sophieharris4448 Holy crap, I never thought of it this way.
Arcane Denial is tier S in my playgroup because it’s the only counter spell that doesn’t make people target me for the rest of the game for ruining their fun
I have never disagreed with a take quite as much as Negate's placement. The fact that it can and is a very reasonable include in any deck with blue INCLUDING five color decks is understated here. It belonged in B, whenever I make any deck with blue there is almost always room for a Negate. Sure it doesn't overperform but it consistently gets the job done with the least concern to your mana excluding free counters.
I wholeheartedly agree with you
Negate is excellent
Negate is quite possibly the best, so versatile and cheap!
Hard agree with you friend
Simp for negate
Correction: Foil just says "and another card". It doesn't necessarily have to be a blue card like most other pitch counterspells.
Also, I'd have to hard disagree with the placement of Muddle. The density of hatebears / silver bullets and even X spell bombs with 2 cmc that wizards prints with other constructed format sideboards in mind at your disposal is incredible.
I think the point with muddle is that it's a constrained tutor for 3 when the gold standard (demonic tutor) is unconstrained for 2. I run it in my Urza deck and it's great but you have to have enough cards in that 2 slot to ensure you hit a big pay off. I would say at least 3 2 CMC cards which are very useful to you and that isn't always a sure thing in casual commander decks.
I use it when the 2 slot is very important to me and build my deck to have at least 1 2cmc spell for important categories like cyc rift (board wipe), reality shift (removal), pull from tomorrow (draw). In those cases the opportunity cost is very low.
@@JoeSmith-oy3hk Another example of a clearly very powerful card at the highest levels of play, but which is “too slow” for casual lol.
bruh, u can get BOTH ends of a thassa's oracle combo, both ends of a dramatic scepter, etc. attached to a reasonable counterspell
Hey great vids. I'm getting back in after about a year off of commander. Your vids are really helpful to the point I joined patron. Keep it up.
Thank you so much the support we appreciate it
Narset's Reversal is a combo card. It seldom works as a counter to stuff that your opponent is doing. Narset's Reversal is part of my Approach of the Second Sun play.
Thats smart lol
Its pretty useful to steal an extra turn from a cheeky player too
I’m more than happy to use Narset’s Reversal on a cultivate just for pure tempo and ramp
narset's reversal feels soo good to cast against someones overloaded cyclonic rift, its like a reverse uno card lol. and now they are tapped out and have to discard
I would put Arcane Denial in A. It is the first I put in decks, somewhat because I have lots because it is affordable. But it is so playable even in like 5 colors.
How many counterspells in A weren't free tho? That's why it's a B for me. If you've watched a lot of these their lists there are a lot of perfectly playable almost staples that end up in B and C. Like counterspell for example. Not the best but it's still getting out in decks of all kinds of budgets.
@@Fausto_4841 I hear you on a lot of that. I love force of will, I will play it frequently, but there are more decks that I play Arcane Denial. Force of will and a lot of the free counter spells need you to be able to commit to a lot of blue.
In 4 or 5 color decks I am not running those but I am running arcane denial. It can go in any deck with even a splash of blue.
That is why I rate it so fairly.
Also it doesn't get any salt. The OP free counters can get salty, but with arcane denial, some people are even cool with getting the two cards instead.
for me it's c, I have a deck with 9 counterspells and arcane denial is not one of them
I have used wash away so many times with great success. it feels good because to me it reads counter target commander and you have no idea how awesome that can be to counter a big commander for 1 blue. I include it in every blue deck I use and I have never felt bad about it.
Exactly my thoughts, would they say “Counter target commander for 1 blue” is a bad card?? And wash away is just better than that
Hay brand new to magic does a card like wash away stop the targets effects forever or just until the end of the turn? How exactly long does it last?
@@chrisgroves8891 Wash away counters, so the spell card go to the graveyard. In the case of a commander, it's likely going back to the command zone instead and its commander tax increases (you delay it, but it'll cost more mana)
Negate is great,
Misses only creatures,
I never feel bad on the receiving end of it, and fun to see on top of an opponents counterspell.
Narset's Reversal to me is a pretty terrible counterspell, a pretty great spell-copier, and a FANTASTIC defense against somebody countering your potential game-winning Instant/Sorcery.
It also helps produce infinite treasures if you have Thousand Year Storm on the battlefield and almost any instant or sorcery that creates treasure.
Not that terrible as you essentially make them have to pay double the mana to play their spell it's basically a better version of Mana Tithe while also pulling a pseudo opposition agent so you benefit from the castor's spell basically it is just a Stax card at that point especially if you can return it to your hand so essentially you are locking that person out from ever playing that spell till they get more mana plus again you are benefitting from it. And since it does not actually say counter spells that can't be countered will be countered by it that is the biggest plus from it
Really happy to see you guys come around on negate. Maybe you were exaggerating before, but I've heard you call it "unplayable" a lot.
I would argue that Negate can be better than Counterspell, but it depends heavily on your deck. In mono blue or heavy blue, counterspell is obviously better. But, if blue is a much smaller portion of your deck, then negate is a lot stronger. Being forced to hold up 2 blues when you have a limited amount of total blue can prevent you from expanding your board state, whereas holding up 1 blue and one other is much more manageable.
Also, as you stated before, that 1 generic mana could be reduced causing negate to only cost 1 blue, which again is much easier to hold up than 2 mana.
And lastly, the only thing negate can't counter is creatures, which is the easiest type of permanent to remove. If your deck has any amount of black in it, then you aren't really looking to counter a creature anyway. You would rather save your counters for permanents you can't easily target like enchantments. Or if you have green, go wide, or go tall, then you're probably saving your counter for boardwipes or targeted removal spells.
I agree negate is a C. But I think whether or not it's worse than Counterspell depends entirely on how much blue is in your deck.
Tldr you agree tho so its all good
Listening and evaluating I think the weakness of the tier list is that there are two lists going simultaneously (three if you count budget) and those are how strong it is when you cast it (in the right deck) and how many decks does it go in.
One reason I rate Arcane Denial so high is I think it can go in basically any deck that it is legal in.
Honestly, red elemental blast is an amazing option with how prevalent blue is.
Not sure how Dovin's veto outranks negate by that much; two colors is a big ask similar to the double blue on counterspell, even for can't be countered.
Thanks so much for the amazing content as always! I really like arcane denial because yes your giving your opponent two cards but it feels so good drawing of a counterspell!👍
Distainful Stroke can be a lot more impactful in casual metas. It basically reads "counter something good"
Would also love to see a list of Creature ETBs that can always counter spells like mystic snake or usually counter spells like torrential gearhulk.
Wash away also hits cards from Impulse draw, so if you have a lot of Red, or just a troublesome Prosper player in your group its definitely not poop tier. That said, I do generally agree with it not being very good, but maybe D tier instead of poop.
Definitely the most underrated one on this list. They said countering commanders is fringe. Like those don't appear in every game.
@@blaze556922 yeah, I think countering commanders can be really strong and you're guaranteed to have chances to do it.
I think they are very low on Wash Away, casting outside of hand happens pretty frequently (especially with commanders) and even if it doesn’t happen it’s still not a dead card
mindbreak trap is such a cool counterspell that doesn't even counter. Such a powerful effect if you afford to hold the mana.
The problem with [[Wash Away]] is the issue of resource management in multiple player formats. In Brawl I use it to counter my opponent’s commander all the time. It’s super narrow but I’m always countering or removing their commander. Doing so almost always puts me ahead. In 4 player formats removing or countering a commander puts me and them down in comparison to the other two players. In Commander often I just want to add to the board instead.
This.
I'm new to magic(just started playing last month). Your channel has been super educational. I've been binge watching your channel non stop! Keep up the good work.
Am I the only one that doesn't look at narset's reversal as a counterspell? It's a protection piece that contributes greatly to storm/magecraft. I get giving a D as a counterspell but the card can do a lot.
100% I made the same comment. Never even considered it as a counter
I like to use it to commandeer ramp, I get ahead first and politically, opponent still gets their card. Just a little later
This list rates it as a counterspell first, as in dealing with the immediate threat completely and against a broad number of targets. I personally only have it in my Krark//Sakashima deck because I really care about the copy portion
I have tried Wash Away and about 20 percent of the time I get the 1 mana cost and about half of that time I didn't have the three. So like 1 in 10 you get better than a cancel.
Lots of cards get cast from exile.
Same, I'd only recommend this card if you want a commander counter
How did you go from 20 percent to 1 in 10?
I have a Rhoda Geist Avenger + Timin deck. It’s a Voltron style deck with a tapping down creatures theme. I love Cryptic Command in the deck because the tap all creatures clause is actually useful to me. So if I hold up mana for cryptic command and don’t have anything to counter, I just fire it off before my turn and kill a player
Obviously it’s not a great card in most decks, just sharing a situation where it is
Will you guys do updated videos on these topics ? With power creep thriving in magic and a new set every two weeks , I feel like there’s a ton of newer cards
They don’t make good enough videos for that. Most of their takes are really bad.
Love the list. Makes me reconsider a couple I play, like disallow. I don't really think of narset's reversal as a counterspell, though, except in a counterspell battle to copy my own counterspell or the spell I'm trying to resolve. I think of it more like a protection spell
I think disallow is higher than they put it. Yes it's for 3, so it isn't S tier, but this can counter huge abilities that you normally wouldn't be able to interact with. (This is from a commander perspective).
Y'all could compare all these 3 mana 'with upside' counter spells to murder cuz that kinda hits hard.
ALSO. Maybe cut up poop tier into poop and shiny poop. The shiny poop is like, flusterstorm, because an archetype or at least many decks polish it up to A-S.
What about tibalts trickery? Also love your guys vids. As someone still in highschool watching you guys really helps sometimes
How does that work in commander? They just exile their whole deck and then put the whole deck on the bottom of the library?
@@starmanda88 no you just hit the first spell.
I'm 38. I remember being like 14 and joking about how "One day Pearl Jam is going to be oldies, man." And of course now it's basically happened.
Where would you rate An Offer You Can't Refuse? I feel like it's around low A/high B tier.
Wash away also counters spells cast from exile. If you really think about it, there are a lot of instances where a spell is cast from somewhwere other than hand.
Opponent casts Commander
Cast Wash away for 1
Me: Your commander is DIRTAY, very poopy baby and needs a bath back to the command zone for you!
Wash away, almost like it was made for commander since your commander is rarely in your hand... :P
I've tried it a few times and it hasn't performed as I really want
I think I'd want reasons to cast it other than the commander, otherwise would justify Tales' End to target abilities and legendary spells.
Of course, I have to look at my own decks as targets, 3 of my 18 decks are where it's good (Krark/Sakashima, First Sliver, Kethis the Hidden Hand) - not a good ratio there
"I'm sure that spell was gonna be great, but here's a STUPID BIRD instead."
Imagine this janky magical christmas land scenario: you cast Approach of the Second Sun, then Narset’s Reversal targeting Approach.
Also you guys missed Saw It Coming
I run jhiora cheerios, because of that FOW is not particularly useful because I have too many critical blue spells I don't want to pitch. Best case scenario, I pitch a fabricate, worst case, time spiral. Arcane denial and pact are the only two counters I run because they are less taxing on my mana on my turn when i'd likely need to defend.
Joe, I love that you almost always wear a wrestling shirt. It makes me happy. I want to have you over to play Commander and watch a PPV now.
One of my favorites is Whirlwind Denial for stopping my opponents from getting a million triggers. Way better than Dissallow. Great against death triggers, landfall, burn, +1/+1 counters, and so much more.
Yeah that’s a fun one, would’ve liked to hear their thoughts on it
Love the list.
I wonder, why is "render silent" not on it?
My personal favorite counter spell, for a single white more they cant cast anything during that turn.
Which is really good if they have allot of mana and cards (which happens during commander) basically skipping their turn.
Not good enough, since normal counterspell and Dovin's is a B and C?
Disallow being in Poop tier is crazy. What other spell can counter Grave Titan OR stop it from making TWO 2/2 zombies if you draw it after Grave Titan has already hit the field?
(Seriously, though, stopping abilities is a HUGE upside over Cancel. I've found that abilities tend to be part of instant win combos even more often than spells, and they keep printing more and more uncounterable abilities like Channel. It can be a meta call, and probably shouldn't be above D tier, but as long as you're playing a deck that plans to keep mana open every turn anyway, I'd usually cut stifle or Tale's End before I cut Disallow.)
God no
I'd just run enough interaction to have stifle/tails end AND every better counterspell
Not to mention the good blue tutors
@@V2ULTRAKill lol, well, to be fair, that "usually" is doing a lot of work, here. If you're just running "oops, all counterspells" then yeah, stifle and/or tales end are better, but if you're running less than 10 but more than 2, disallow is a better option.
Like I said, I wouldn't put it above D tier, it's just not poop tier. There are situations where you want it.
@@brianlinden3042 fair
All my high level decks are 2 color at most so im running the full suite of counterspells
Foil is an absolute house with Rielle, the Everwise (my favorite commander of all time!)
Counterspell should be a C. It is the spell you compare all other "Counter" spells to. It does what it does well. It is the grand daddy of all counter magic.
Lol Edit:
I think I meant B but I'm tired.
At least I didn't forget everyone's birthday
No so mean :(
35:10 it’s funny because you are right and whenever there is a good spell wash away can hit I just think “omg, yes”
Rewind is amazing. It gives you counter magic on the turn immediately after you which can throw off opponents because now you can untap and bluff more counter spells or even have the mana for additional plays. Let’s say someone tries to stop you during your turn while you have high tide up, now you have 8 mana worth of mana thanks to untapping your lands.
You missed tibalts trickery. Where would you rank that?
I’m making a raff capashen deck with the restriction of every card being historic or instant (or a card with flash or text that says you can cast it at instant speed you get the point) and because of that rewind is gonna be like THE best card in the deck because the mana I get back I can always spend even when it isn’t my turn. Also this tier list is very helpful because although my deck will be very on the board (probably artifact creatures since I love tapping my prices of cardboard) i will still have tons of interaction because I have the flexibility to hold up interaction just in case and if not needed just advance my board state right before my turn. I WILL INSTALL THE FEAR OF GOD INTO MY LGS!!!
I'd love your take on the non blue counterspells. They'd all be unplayable in blue but can be game winning coming out of non blue decks.
I run Azorius. Nobody EVER sees Mana Tithe coming. I've had opponents look at my hand, see a mana tithe in it, and then just forget about it and tap out playing a big spell anyway.
I actually cast wash away without cleave to win a draft game once... my opponent was like "I've never seen that card used that way before". good vid nerds, thanks for all the good content, i love these tier vids.
What’s your opinion on arcmages charm?
3U instant choose one
-counter target spell
-target player draws two
-gain control of target nonland permanent with mana value one or less
I have to take a hot take here, and more because of the reasoning being that this is directed towards casual commander. Counterspell should be a solid B at least, arguably an A, because it counters ANY spell without any downside. For example swan song costs 1 blue mana and can only counter enchantments, instant or sorceries and gives the opponent a bird. In a casual format where average Joe may play a dragon tribal, or artifact matters deck this counterspell might be a dead card in hand and tho it's rated above counterspell only because it costs 1 mana less?
I'm not arguing that it is at par at the best counterspell ever printed(FoW *cough*), but taking in consideration that the downside of a free cast comes with exiling a card from your hand in a precon level / slightly upgraded decks pod, might as well be a harsher cost that one more blue mana
The tempo advantage of each mana you remove from a counterspell is hard to explain but i feel like it makes such a huge difference
What do you guys think of Reinterpret from Strixhaven?
What you guys think about Desertion? I mean. Its high cost, but its a good counter and you can stop and steal combos, steal commanders, big creatures and artifacts.
No Jwari disruption rating from my favourite MDFC proponents? For shame
Love the work guys! I could see the reasoning for placement on most of these, but I was a little confused about your Cryptic v. Mystic Confluence placement. It seemed like you valued the fact that Confluence affected the board when you didn't need a mana leak, but that didn't seem to come up too much with Cryptic? Just curious, and wish you guys the best!
They mentioned that the third blue mana for Cryptic can be pretty tough unless you are mono or very heavy blue in a two-color.
What would y’all rate Tibalt’s trickery?
B because ow buddy countering a mana died only to big sad turn it into an Eldrazi.
Love it Nerds!
I should also add that Narset's Reversal is good if you are using it in response to someone's tutor so a less feels bad opposition agent but otherwise it depends on the type of spell they are playing as obviously you are going to play it if they are playing a rampant growth waste their two mana and get a free land like it is so versatile it is worth having it in your deck as you can target your own cards to basically have a bit more expensive copy for redundancy
Nice just picked up a handful of these. I think Mystic Confluence and Sublime Epiphany work best in spell copy decks like Kalamax so you get the max out of them
I do love both of them
I would put flusterstorm at least at d, people forget it can target multiple spells with its copies and there have definitely been moments where my opponents stack there instants on top of someone's sorcery like Teferis protection in response to a board wipe and being able to say no to both the board wipe and his protection just feels great.
That feel so corner case IMO
@@NitpickingNerds Well not just in that case, obviously, that's just an example. Not to mention it's also only one mana and people almost always tap out early game to play instants and sorceries like ramp style cards or tutors. I'd probably agree more for poop tier if it was a 2 mana card, but 1 mana feels like a decent argument for D at the least imo.
wash away is amazing tbh. stops cascade, stops so many things that just "happen". making high cost commanders cost more when someone trys to dark ritual a commander out. even low cost commanders like animar just being stopped on first arrival to stopping gravetide type decks just feels good. its been a pretty solid card for me. the cleave is a big bonus but playing mana willy nilly just to end with a random blue open makes opponents feel like you don't have an answer to their play.
I just put rewind in my Kadena morph deck.
It does contain stuff like Leyline of anticipation, vedalken orrery, vivien champion of the wilds, and a bunch of face down creatures that are ready to turn face up.
It's a great way to be a threat, while also maintaining my pwn game plan.
What would you rate desertion? The ability to take your opponents commander is devastating!! Also most of the cards on this list go from ok to absolutely amazing in a baral deck 😈
Great video tbh, i had a question btw will you do some videos on duel commander ?
"What happened to my life?!" is so relatable, I was born in 87.
Mana Tithe best Counter
cuz no one ever sees it coming
Great list, totally agree with most of it. When i fist started playing i 100% thought arcane denial was poop, you guys have totally changed my mind about that. I've never played Dovin's veto so maybe im underrating that as well, but when you put it a whole tier above counterspell i said... 🤨
I’d like to see the red counter spells added to this tier list 😁😁
Red elemental blast/pyroblast and tibalt's trickery
I'm not sure if you guys covered this but where would you put render silent? It's one white one blue and says counter target spell, then the spells controller can't cast spells this turn.
Wash Away is 1 mana counter target commander, it does not function as a Cancel 90% of the time like you said, because you're supposed to hold it up until they cast their commander. And no, that's not a fringe case because, and you mentioned in this very same video, the entire premise of the format is to cast the commander. Now, is that worth the opportunity cost of a catd slot? That's another matter, but this is a good card for what it does.
i agree a 1 mana commander stopper is insane imo. it disrupts alot of plans
I’ve never once had to play wash away for 3. There is so much graveyard play, exile casts, and commanders hitting the board in my area that it’s always insane value
@@jorjor500 graveyard and exile become less prominent the higher you go, eventually reaching a point where the only use of the card is commanders or cascade, meaning its either a cancel or a brick if you dont get it before the threat commander is already in play
@@V2ULTRAKill there are tons of decks in high power/Cedh that play around their graveyard. That’s not counting other cards such as underworld breach or Ragavan triggers. Even then, countering a powerful commander for 1 is always good, and it’s an ok CS for other card types depending on the situation and deck. Leaving three mana open for certain archetypes is the norm .
Narsets Reversal + overloaded Psych Rift in reaction to your turn has always been fun
I wonder if Prosper’s popularity as a mid-power commander explains Wash Away somewhat, or if it is *just* Tale’s End overhype again.
Sublime Epiphany in Hinata is just disgusting. I love it.
I decided to try You Find the Villains Lair in my Yennett deck as a counterspell that does something if I hit it off of her trigger and aside from that the ability to hold up counter magic or card selection both has been pretty nice, the 3 mana held up never goes to waste.
What about the non blue counter spells? Notable Veil of Summer and Red Elemental Blast/Pyroblast?
2:20 - didn't spot Amber until you pointed her out
I assume Mana Leak would be like mid-D? It can hit everything but abilities but they can pay mana to counter it
Pact of Negation is my favourite. Simply because if I have it casting my combo pieces for Breya, Etherium Shaper it's perfect against procrastinators 😈
Wow. I really needed this one. Thank you guys.
I’m going on record as stating that my birthday is Nov. 2nd, I will be waiting.. and watching…
Soft disagree on wash away. In competitive games (just under cEDH) I have seen this card perform well. In 8-9 power games that rely on commanders and end on turn 6-7, delaying someone’s commander for one turn can be pretty rough for them. Also useful against decks that cast frequently from graveyard/exile. Obviously meta dependent card though. In mine its probably C tier.
What about Access Denied ? always good if you counter something and get a bunch of mini drones
Wash Away is basically counter target commander. That's really good for one mana. Especially against bigger cmc commanders. That takes away an opponent's turn most times and taxes them the following turn. For just one mana. Bad take. It's not hard to hold up one blue mana as the turn goes around the table.
Yup, and its modal too. Late game its cancel.
Great list! Would be helpful though if you guys kept the image of the card you're talking about on screen the whole time you're talking about it! It's hard to remember all the ones I don't know by heart once they've left
Where is "Tale's End" in your List?
Building Kalamax at the moment, and this vid really helps me round out my counter spells! Thank you!
Narset's Reversal is in Kalamax. You can play it over and over with Kalamax' first ability.
1. Opponent casts a spell
2. Cast Narset's Reversal
3. Get a 1. copy of Narset's Reversal, targeting Narset's Reversal
4. The Copy resolves: Narset's Reversal is in your Hand and you get a 2. copy of Narset's Reversal, targeting the opponent's spell
5. The 2. copy of Narset's Reversal resolves: Opponent's spell gets back to his hand and you get the copy of the opponent's spell
My normal go to is to muddle the mixture to find Demonic Tutor, which normally finds my Rhystic Study so I can get more counterspells... 😅😅😅
What about deflecting swat. I know it’s not a counterspell but, I think most people do use it as a counter spell. Have any of you guys been saved by a deflecting swat?
So I play Envelop in decks where blue is limited and I have a heavy board presence in a taped out control decks. I run it along Swansong for how little mana I can keep open. Boardwipes are the only thing I am worried about in my ninja deck where my mana is being used on my turn.. If I need to recast creatures and sneaking in ninjas on my turn I can't hold up much mana for counter spells.
Where are all of the blue+x counterspells or non-blue ones?
Plasm Capture, Mystic Snake, or Lapse of Certainty and Mana Tithe (best feeling as a white deck)!!
I use narsetts reversal in spell slinger decks because I can rely on copying my own storm spells to cast them again after and only once have I ever been able to use it as a counterspell and that was on an expropriate
What about counters in other colors like snuff out or creature counters like perplexing chimera?
I want Beezy to build a 3 to 5 color deck, built around Hivemind. The idea of the deck would be to get Hivemind on the field as fast as possible, and then casting a Pact spell to put a "loses the game" trigger on the stack during the opponents upkeep. If they don't have the colors of mana to pay the cost then they just lose the game. You might recognize the idea from Saffron Olive playing this deck in Modern. But if it could be pulled off in commander then it would be one of the most epic ways to win in all of Magic lol
Summary Dismissal, Tale's End, Voidslime is dual colored but the same as disallow. Baral tribal counterspell probably adjusts the tiers but it's a niche deck and honestly that is a shark typhoon win, or the enchantment that gives you constructs for instants and sorceries, name escapes me atm.
I don't even view narsets reversal as a counterspell. I tend to play it as a weird copy spell that can also protect my haymaker instant and sorceries
What are your thoughts on Saw it Coming?
Love the content! Curious to know how you guys would compare the off-color counterspells like Mana Tithe, Warping Wail, Withering Boon etc as well!
I had a birthday in the last four days :D Heck yeah. Got the cute cards on Sunday and another shout out today? Pshhh
This is a weird video for me. Maybe I'm not understanding your tier rating, but some of these spells you have in C/D tier are really powerful (Counterspell, Cryptic Command, even Rewind) and it makes no sense to me why these wouldn't be high picks in decks that are built around draw/go control game plans. If I am playing for the long game, I am happy as can be when my opponents do nothing threatening for a turn. If I hold up counterspell or rewind and I don't need to use either early in the game, I'm really really happy. I'm not the one getting time walked here. I'm time walking the board. I got a free land drop, moved the clock farther down the road, and didn't need to use any resources.
I'm sure a lot of this comes down to meta. In slower, non-combo focused commander games, the slower the game progresses the better of my control decks will do. Playing something for 4 mana on my turn and needing Force of Will to defend it is rarely going to be what wins me the game versus holding up counters/draw spells, building a million mana and then unloading threats on subsequent turns with those counters still in my hand to protect them.
It's all good guys :) I appreciate you! Amazing video!
Perfect timing! Just started brewing my deekah deck
What's your opinion on Forceful Denial? 5 mana counterspell but has cascade
NEW NITPICKING NERDS VIDEO!
Narset's Reversal is a Commandeer for 2 you know that right? A tier in my opinion.
I use nurses reversal to undo a counterspell on my wincon by countering my own spell and getting my torment of hailfire as a copy. Could also just reversal a win con feels hella good
I absolutely LOVE Wash Away. Countering commanders is definitely its best use, if an opponent has a low cmc commander or plans to rush it out, Wash Away absolutely destroys their momentum for one mana held up. Imagine a spell that is just “counter commander” for 1, which I would argue is a very playable card; Wash Away is much better than that. Definitely not fringe, loads of spells get cast not from hand over the course of a game. And even if that never happens (which is impossible in a commander game because of casting from command zone) it’s still not a dead card!
Yeah but cancel is so bad