The Oxford Movement
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- Опубликовано: 4 окт 2024
- In our final visit to All Saint's, Margaret Street (see the first video here • All Saints, Margaret S... ) - we take the opportunity to deep dive on the Oxford Movement - and I finally get to bring some amazing footage off the cutting room floor from a number of other sacred spaces.
I think you'll enjoy this video all the more if you also watch
St Margaret's, Lee • St Margaret's Lee
St Paul's Deptford, • Saint Paul's Deptford ...
St Mary the Virgin, Rotherhithe • St Mary the Virgin Rot...
And of course
All Saint's, St Margaret Street • All Saints, Margaret S...
Thanks to Fr Alan, Fr Mark, Fr Tim and Fr Paul - their contribution cannot be overstated - but any mistakes are mine alone.
As a future Roman-Catholic, I see the Oxford movement as a great step towards christian unity. This is again seen by the Ordinariates of Our Lady of Walsingham, Chair of St. Peter and Southern Cross, monumental step towards that communion, harmony and unity agreeable to our Lord.
As an outsider - there certainly seems much more to unite around than to fight over - but for a fascinating alternative view do watch this video ruclips.net/video/aX_AHSCAd-k/видео.html
@@hereticatious Great suggestion, I loved it!
What do you mean as a ‘future Roman Catholic’?
@@VynylFantasy That I'll become one, in the future.
@@Paul9443 Despite my comment in the post above (with things not having turned out for me as one might have hoped) I truly wish you every happiness!
I had a devout High Church Dad and went to a C. of E. boys' school, only we were raised Roman Catholic for Mum, so I grew up familiar with both). Great dignity and tasteful reserve in the Church of England, for instance the King James Bible and the Book Of Common Prayer, as well as some magnificent hymns!
For many with a Roman Catholic exposure, however, there comes a time when one finds oneself saying of Anglicanism: 'The Emperor has no clothes'. (If there be a God, please God you never see the day when you look up to see the Catholic priest has no clothes either, quite literally)... but then, such vice is not exclusively Roman, moreover:
'The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and "there is no new thing under the sun." '-Ecc. 1:9 (the KJV).
Again, I like to think things shall work out for you in a way that, in time, you shall say it was both the most important and the best decision of your life!
Later on the Oxford movement developed a social awareness, opening large parish houses next to the church, where parish members were active in various activities, especially encouraging boys to join church sponsored sports teams.
I noticed an outward facing character
It was not only the Oxford Movement but the whole C of E. See the work of Kitson Clarke and Edward Norman.
The Oxford Movement is "The Return to Rome" Movement
Truly fascinating. Thank you.
A really useful video and one that I think really helps with understanding why the church is as it is today. Thank you.
Thanks - I learned a lot making it.
Excellent video, thank you for making it and exploring this topic and these sites.
Thanks for the comment @evelynstarshine8561 - they are fun to make.
Have any of you read Peter Nockles "The Oxford Movement in Context?" He shows how truly revolutionary it was.
I had a go at getting it out of my local library - not available. I'll keep looking.
@@hereticatious Nockles' DPhil thesis from Oxford may be online.
yes. it's rather dry prose, but gives a lot of context and information commonly overlooked in cursory renderings of church history.
@@hereticatious Try ILL.
I think it's beautiful
Me too
Some might take "This is theater" - or part or mostly or all theater - as equaling "This is for show" - it's the shallow, decorative part. But I think it's important to underline the fact that when others use "theater," they're thinking of the roots of all Western theater in the plays of the Athenian dramatists.
And in them - and in best dramatists that followed, including Shakespeare - it's the drama itself that conveys the ultimate response to the greatest of life's questions, the ones that it's hard or impossible to answer any other way.
PS I'm an Atheist, so the above thoughts aren't meant as propaganda!
Anglo-catholism is NOT backward looking at all. Also it is NOT conservative with a small c. Just as the Anglican church has many branches. Some anglo-catholic churches are fully welcoming of women priests, gay people, etc. Others have a more literal interpretation of the Bible, and these churches have self-named themselves as more orthodox.
I think I basically agree with you. What I was trying to imply was they looked back to the scripture and practices of the early church - that's a conservative with a small c sort of thing to do. I think what YOU say does underline my (not particularly explicit) theses - that this backward look was selective - and they (the Oxford Movement) helped themselves to the bits they already liked. There is lots to like about those choices. I'm genuinely perplexed that there are still those who feel women priest and gay marriage pose a problem - I imagine they just need to read differently.
But it's basically bloody rude for me to opine too strongly on this - as I start from an utterly different place on all these subjects and am being merely pragmatic on where my (essentially woolly liberal) values overlap.
Newman came to believe that the C of E was "half-way to Atheism".
I'm all the way to atheism - and it seemed pretty "faithy" to me :-)
@@hereticatiousIt’s not a question of “reading differently”. Its simply, what is the point of following something that is supposed to be Objective and authoritative for morals and values, that has consistently and clearly declared for 2000 years the same message on marriage and clergy, if within a period of Barack Obamas presidency, it can change its teaching and give you the opposite conclusion. Why should I follow that as having any bearing whatsoever on me? It’s contradictory and irrelevant. How much do you need to read to come to that conclusion.
@crossvilleengineering1238 If you accept any change can happen at all (and there's been lots of change over the period) there's got to be a moment before the the change is formalised and after when it is. I'm not sure your argument about the change happening over a presidential term can hold any weight (and for scale we had three prime ministers during that time - is that long enough? - how long would be long enough for you?).
And of course there were many years (hundreds?) before when the obvious inconsistency with central values of kindness and fairness were argued (both openly and covertly) before one selective reading finally replaced another selective reading.
At about 23:30 Goldsmiths' College, London University. A mention of orthodoxy quite late on in the video, but no mention of Anglo-Orthodoxy or St. Alexis Khomiakov(1802-1860)'s correspondence (in English) with Palmer. This has led to the Society of St. Alban and St. Sergius, which supports the Anglo-Orthodox Tradition. Walsingham goes back to pre-conquest times, as does Barking Abbey and is very much part of this, recognising that it and England was Orthodox prior to the Norman conquest.
I love how one subject leads to another - thanks for the insight and its added to the list.
The Anglo-Orthodox Society existed in the 1980s but dissolved in 1993 with its members becoming Catholic, Orthodox or Continuing Anglican, it published a journal "Anglo-Orthodoxy.
Sarcasm coming in hot: oh…that’s how the comma moved… 😏
When Dr Pusey (as we have heard, one of the founders of the Oxford Movement) came to Leeds, West Yorkshire, he said to the famous Vicar of Leeds, Dr Hook, ‘I want to build my church in the poorest area of Leeds’, and St Saviours, Richmond Hill, was built and funded by Pusey and was the first Anglo Catholic church in the north of England. It was Consecrated, amidst great controversy, in 1875. Dr Hook was also faced controversy over the design of, the then, new Leeds Parish Church, now Leeds Minster, build in 1841 but he was thinking along the lines of the overlapping Tractarians. Perhaps giving rise to the saying, ‘there is high church, low church and Leeds Parish Church!’
St Saviour's does look lovely.
I have encountered writers who regarded Hook and his church as Laudian.
The Oxford Movement is "The Return to Rome" Movement
Good church history here. A pity the audio is not of a consistent quality.
There an actual error towards the end (when I'm walking around and summarizing) - unfortunately RUclips doesn't offer a facility to patch in a fix. But are there other bits where the audio isn't working for you? I sweat blood over the audio - but I am definitely a beginner - so by all means direct me to a bad bit.
OxXxtraordinary 👍😁👌xXx
At 26:50 'What I found is I love everything about the church, I just don't quite get the God thing'... I think Coldplay said it best in Viva la Vida: 'For some reason I can't explain I know St Peter won't call my name'. (Never set out to feel this way, only reality came along).
Sounds like whats-his-name, that Atheist who describes himself as a "cultural Christian"? Like someone who likes apples but wants to cut down all orcgards.
First Coldplay reference in the comments. Gold star.
St Peter don't you call me,I can't go
Cos I owe my soul to the company store...
@@nickbarber2080 Good one! 😄
The Oxford Movement and Anglo Catholicism held/hold the Church of England to be THE Catholic Church in England, so both yourself and your interviewee made the mistake of equating papalism and the Catholic Church. Both papalist and non-papalist Anglo Catholics acknowledged the Roman Catholic Church and Eastern Orthodoxy along with Anglicanism to be branches of the one Catholic Church. To refer to Rome as THE Catholic Church is to deny the Anglican identity. You ought to read the Oxford Movement and Anglo Catholic theologians to see that they refer to their Church as Catholic.
I think your different emphasis is illuminating. In England we've tended to get more stuck on the beef between Henry and the Pope. I must admit - until about thirty seconds ago - I thought the Orthodox and Roman Catholic churches were in full communion - so have tended to treat them as different flavours of the same thing. Thanks for making me look into this. Still learning.
I did read Keble's "Kicking off the Oxford Movement" sermon. I found it had much in common with most sermons - too long and unnecessarily elliptical. It didn't say what I wanted it to say either i.e. "let's make churches prettier and more fun". Please don't make me read any more😢
@@hereticatious Amazing that you did not know about the schism between the Orthodox and Roman Catholic.
Even very early on there were Anglican Papalists who equated the Church with Rome. Hurrell Froude and WG Ward are good examples.
@@frederickjones532 None who remained Anglican would deny that the Anglican Church is the Catholic Church.
@@anselman3156 Many Anglican Papalists maintained that the C o E was 2 Provinces or the Roman Catholic Church forcibly separated by State action. I can remember such people in the 1950s.
I just see Oliver Cromwell in the movie getting Angry at the trinkets,
Played by Oliver Reed
@@hereticatiousPlayed by Richard Harris, surely?
The Oxford Movement is "The Return to Rome" Movement
As a non Anglican I found this very helpful and interesting. The one priest said he welcomes all and everyone (read gays) I am curious how well attended are these churches are…half full? Or half empty? on a typical Sunday. Are they continuing because of grassroot support or ecclesiastical?
They do alright there I think - numbers wise. But it's such an odd point to make - is this a numbers game to you?
Are you saying - if liberalism is successful - and rescues the church - you'll get on board?
I think you should like liberalism because it's nicer.
They are mainly empty, fashions have changed, and although drawing some by their ritual and colour, their downplaying of the word of God, the saving work of Jesus Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit do not meet the deep needs of our spiritual hunger for reality!
Do they downplay the word of god? Its all I can do too get them off the subject.
Anglo-catholism is NOT backward looking at all. correct!!!!!!!!!!!
Back-ward looking may be right - to put the clock backward may be correct if it is telling the wrong time.
The King reaffirmed in his coronation that the C of E was Protestant so why do Anglo Catholics not just go and join Rome?
Well.....,
The Oxford Movement is "The Return to Rome" Movement
The Biretta Belt.....
Also remember that High Church Anglicanism is different from Anglo Catholic Anglicanism
How so - details and wikipedia links please?
@@hereticatious Nockles explains the different in detail. The authorities who condemned Newman were Anglican High Churchmen.
So, the Christian Lifestyle is anything the Society demands! I can be completely obedient to Society without a Church so what is the purpose of a Church totally obedient to the ruling Oligarchs?
I think you perhaps go a little too far. Think of the church as an evolving character - there are things that are in character and things that are out of character - and when it learns - you find out that the thing it learned was in character all along. That's not the same as anything goes.
You're right though - we don't *need* the church - but - darn it they built such nice buildings - we owe it to history to to find a way to look after them - and the stories are so compelling we owe it to humanity to keep them in the zeitgeist.
@@hereticatious We have a different understanding of Church! My early Christian Teachers always emphasized fidelity to the will of God, and always held the early Christian Martyrs as an example of not giving in to the World. God is the Center verses Human Reason or Society as the Center is the main difference between our points of view. Actually, I respect the gods and goddesses of all peoples enough not to ask their worshipers to change the Religion that their gods gave them while continuing to claim that they are true Worshipers. When I do missionary work my aim is to convince the Worshipers of foreign gods that they would be better off Worshping the Lord my God and forsake their ancestral gods. My aim is not a demonstration that their gods aren't real or that they should modify their Religion to make it more in line with Western Cultural norms, because for me that is ultimately not even important. Encouraging people to Blasphem their ancestral gods would only bring the wrath of their gods an them and me something that is of no benefit to anyone involved.
As far as the Church as a Museum this was never attractive to me. I have always found it a joy when traveling to Eastern Countries and find a beautiful Church with zero tourists yet plenty of people saying their own private prayers during times when no Liturgical Service was taking place.
My parents and grandparents were Anti- Capitalist and despised the Ruling Oligarchs of the West and so a Religion Modified or newly Created for the benefit of Capitalism or the Western Oligarchs was never a thing for me. The State Church of England in our time is obviously a Modified Religion for the Benifit of the Oligarchs, this is not a judgment on Anglicanism as it is very possible to be an Anglican and fully intend to follow Historical Christianity, yet for this Communion with the Archbishop of Canterbury must be broken. [In a short time this will not be a big deal in time because the Office of the Archbishop of Canterbury, as well as the Pope of Rome, and Patriarch of Constantinople among others will be permanently vacant.]
All this probably has a lot to do with our parents and early teachers and their understanding of Authority such View Points are often past on in families for 100s of years... Interesting as a teenager I criticized my parents a lot, yet today so many years later, I have adapted their understanding of Authority and mindset with very few changes almost as if the Political, Social, Economic and Religious aims of my parents and grandparents have become personally mine, you can easily see my ancestors when listening to me talk.
Cannot relate.
I wouldn't have either a nine months ago. You have a choice - watch all my videos in order (I'm very much in favour of this option) OR tell me what you'd like to see?
@@hereticatiousNo, thank you. A little learning is a dangerous thing. Live and let live.
@@Jack-il3qv Your curtesy and restraint leaves me no choice - I (reluctantly) release you back in to the environment 🙂
@@hereticatious 'Blessed are you when people exclude you..' From the Beatitudes. I am indeed blessed. I am never without a choice. I shall go where strangers are welcome.
@b-a-boonMatthew 5:22 'And anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.'
It was a terrible vandalistic movement. In Wales adherents of the Oxford movement ruined beautiful medieval churches with their ‘restoration’ fervour.
In same cases they even tore down medieval rood screens and rood lofts (that had somehow withstood the reformation, the republic, and Methodism) because they wanted to plonk in their own horrid pitch pine imitation. Cheap mass-produced lecterns, altars, that uniquitoys murky green stained glass. Ugh.
@EireAbu Care to elaborate?
Big gay problem among Anglo Catholic priests!!
Is it impossible to find people on all these takes political or religious that can string a sentence together. Most talking on these pods makes it hard to listen to and boreing to listen to.
Are you absolutely sure - perhaps you should listen again just to be completely certain?
Clutching at straws, the whole faith is diminishing in importance as people find their own paths.
Okay - but what a straw!
@hereticatious from somebody who had that straw but found it wanting I can assure you there are a million straws out there , I found my straw and its not hollow
@billybobwombat2231 but if your straw isn't hollow - how can you drink your milkshake :-)
@@hereticatious I chew it
Aesthetically speaking Anglo-Catholicism seems rootless, camp and theatrical. The symbolism is vague, part William Morris, part fairground barrel organ, a bit posh in a Mrs Slocombe how-very-dare-you way. It's like a lost tribe keeping up appearances, while fighting a war that has long since been resolved.
You're saying all that as if it's a bad thing? That's all cuddly as anything to me.
@@hereticatious I get the Calvinist end of Anglian Protestantism, while disagreeing with it theologically. Life is rot and canker, so let's whitewash the church back to nothing the better to contemplate our depravity. However, Anglo-Catholic churches seem like a place you could marry your dog, and there'd be vestments for that express purpose. It may have originated in a genuine attempt to re-think Anglicanism in the face of Catholic emancipation, but as an outsider in the C21st it looks like a gay church. For atheists this doesn't matter, it's yet another riff on a widespread delusion. For Christians, conservatives and the aesthetically OCD, it's a skip fire.
@@hereticatious My reply has been removed for some reason, so we'll never know!
@EireAbu I hesitate to respond because my reply was removed. By "resolved" I meant there's Catholicism and Protestantism in the west, and Anglo-Catholicism is a historical anachronism that exists to serve a particular demographic.
@EireAbu When did she advocate baby-killing?