There have been some comments of an uncharitable nature who have argued: Anglican=National Catholic=Global Therefore Anglican Catholic is inconsistent. The trouble is that Anglican is not a noun, it is an adjective roughly synonymous with English. This, just as there are parts of the Catholic Church which have a particular ethnicity and culture such as the Russian, Greek, Armenian and Roman (i.e. Latin Rite) expressions of Catholicism, so there is an Anglican Catholicism which expressions its adherence to the One Catholic Faith through the Anglican milieu.
Of course, some might say, the Russian, Greek and Armenian Churches are Orthodox, not Catholic. I'll let these people tell those Churches that and see how they fare!
@@Warwickensis I myself was born into the Roman Church before Vatican II. Needless to say, the collapse of faith and morals amongst the hierarchy drove me into Orthodoxy. However, after thirty-some years, I find myself alienated from all sides, culturally, not theologically. I want a home in my own ethnic church, but I know not where that might be. Perhaps part of my problem is the fact I'm American where all European ethnicities have amalgamated, myself being the offspring of a Green Irish mother and an Orange Irish father. Yes, we held fights in the living room after supper.
@@memlagu that's hard for you not knowing where you are to belong. Ultimately, we strive for the home in Heaven which surpasses even the best experience of Church here on Earth. Nonetheless, I pray that you find somewhere that you can call your spiritual home.
I can't answer that but I have stated, and will state again, that I have no hatred to the Roman Catholic Church. Indeed, if people can accept its authority then I urge them to be part of that church. Like the other Anglican Catholics, I just don't accept its claim that the whole church subsists in the Holy See. God bless the Pope!
I don't agree....depends which countries you regard at Western Europe, I'm talking France, Spain, Portugal, Ireland just to mention a few. These countries may not be observant catholic but they are all culturally catholic.
I was hoping someone would clarify this. As someone coming from an American Puritan "tradition," it was hard to distinguish which was which at first. Thankfully, God is merciful and helped me get sorted out. Haha.
As a Roman Catholic, what would be your stance if an Anglican Catholic had no Anglican Catholic Churches nearby? Would they stay home, go to a different Apostolic church or go to a Protestant church
That's quite a common scenario for us. What I usually suggest is for Anglican Catholics to worship at a Roman Catholic or Orthodox Church and make a spiritual communion in respect of our unfortunate situation of walking apart. While it was available, many of our "homeless" Anglican Catholics enjoyed the Extraordinary Form.
One other observation. As an RC, I find it interesting that you insist upon reading the BCP through the beliefs of the first 7 ecumenical councils and tradition. In a sense this is very similar to Benedict's insistence that the NO and the Council were to be understood by the hermeneutics of continuity and not that of rupture so fashionable in the present (very dubious) papacy.
Benedict's view was rooted in the realities of historical development. He was not a hyper papalist in the distorted way Francis is. Francis' abuse of his office is beyond the pale. If by Anglican Catholic one means an adherence to the historic teachings of the Church found in the Councils and the insistence on ones duty to defend them as for RCs found in Pastor Aeternus, the document that defines and LIMITS the reach of papal infallibility then I suppose the answer is an ironic yes, at least in my humble opinion.
The odd thing is that as an RC I sympathize with the position of the Caroline divines in the sense that as one who opposes the NO madness in the church, (The No is valid, and has a few good point in spite of it being a period committee creation) like these divines, Catholics of my stripe have to tread very carefully because the official establishment Roman church regards us as with as much love and the same suspicion Elizabeth had of her Catholic subjects. Because we live in a more civilized age (in some respects not all) we are not being drawn and quartered for treason but we are denounced as rigid, narrow minded, bigoted and psychologically unstable. I admire those divines for their quiet courage and the dilemma they faced trying to remain Catholic in an establishment gone wild.
You're very correct. Everything about Man has become noisy with the ease of communication. I think this decade especially, even the souls of men and women are being subjected to a barrage of spiritual noise where once there was a calm exposition of the Faith by the Church. I think keeping one's head down with what one knows best is the course to take. It's how we operate in the Anglican Catholic Church and how the Roman Catholic Church used to operate. I agree with Pope John XXIII in that sometimes we need to open the window to blow the cobwebs away. The trouble is that he chose to open the window during a force 9 gale!
It's rather difficult for me living in a country where the National Church is so dominant to have a coherent thoughts about what is a rather minority group. I am not a Lutheran doctrinally and I have explained in other videos where Anglican Catholicism stands with respect to the Solas. Saying that, I once spent some time in Göttingen and, not being a strong speaker of German, I attended Mass at the Lutheran Church there. It was a very rewarding experience for me. I could follow the Mass and even knew the hymns which were played with the wonderful organ preambles one might expect from Bach. My hope is that we find commonality and purpose in the Gospel together.
It reminds me of the of the debate in my world on whether we should be Anglican evangelicals or evangelical Anglicans. A former Archbishop of Sydney believed the latter while other "heavies" in the diocese believed the former. But even that Archbishop once got himself mixed up in public and wasn't sure which expression to use!
I think the Enlightenment rejection of Aristotelian philosophy may explain a little of the confusion. It depends on what one regards as one's essence and what qualifies it. If one doesn't have a good appreciation for the distinction, then one is bound to confuse the two.
As a member of the Eastern Orthodox Church, what are thoughts, as an Anglican priest, on the Orthodox church? I noticed you have icons which really surprised me.
Well, this is the thing. I'm not an Anglican priest, but an Anglican Catholic priest. One difference you have already picked up on: the Anglican Church only subscribes officially to four Oecumenical Councils; the Anglican Catholic Church subscribes to all seven, including Nicaea II. This means we recognise the importance of ikons. I have many which I find essential to my appreciation of the reality of Heaven.
As for my thoughts on the Orthodox Church, they are the same thoughts of appreciation, affection and esteem that I have for the Roman Catholic Church. My prayer is that, one day, we find a common approach whereby we are united into one visible communion as a witness to the World of the reality of Our Lord Jesus Christ in His Church, His word and His sacraments.
Thank you for these videos Father, they have been extremely helpful as i learn about the Anglican Catholic Church. Can catholics in communion with Rome recieve communion at anglican catholic churches? Also, if one desired to join the church, would one have to "convert" from Roman Catholicism?
Hello! Thank you for the kind words. A Roman Catholic can indeed receive the Eucharist in an Anglican Catholic Church provided they are confirmed and believe in the Real Presence (not something to be taken for granted these days). My only concern is that in receiving at an Anglican Catholic church, Roman Catholic would be going against the edicts of their church so they would need to square that with their conscience first. We don't require conversion, but anyone who wants to join us from another church may be received formally by the bishop or his representative.
@@Warwickensis Thank you so much for the information Father! I'm technically eastern Catholic and believe all of the truths of the faith of the undivided church. I'm currently struggling with certain "developments" such as the papal claims as well as the belief that other apostolic Christians are severed from the body of Christ; hence why I've been researching Anglican Catholicism.
Thank you for the very enlightening account. Why don't we all come together around the successor of Peter? "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven: whatever you bid on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." Matt 16:19
I have watched your videos and have had a wonderful conversation with you on the Anglican Catholic Church's view on the Anglican Ordinariate. I guess what I am still not understanding is what the Anglican Catholic Church's understanding of the word "Catholic" is. As a Roman Catholic, I understand it as meaning belonging to or in communion with the Catholic Church under the Pope. This includes "normal" Roman Catholics as well as those in the Anglican Ordinariate as well as Eastern Catholics. ... Now, I understand some groups, such as certain Protestants, will use "catholic" typically with a lowercase "c" to describe any and all Christians, possibly out of a desire to fit into the "holy, catholic, and apostolic Church" described in the Apostle's Creed. Certain people in the Anglican Church also use it to describe themselves as high-church-oriented rather than low-church-oriented. I think this is the group of people you describe as "Anglo-Catholics" in the video, and it was what my grandfather considered himself as a priest in the Episcopal Church before he became a Roman Catholic priest in the early 1980s. ... So how does the Anglican Catholic Church understand the term "Catholic" and how do Anglican Catholics mean it when describing their church? Does it mean simply that they are Christian? Does it mean that they have high-church practices? You stressed in the video that the Anglican Catholic Church is not Rome-bound, so I assume it doesn't mean that it has a goal of joining or being adjacent to the Catholic Church.
I've written about this topic in my book "The Meaning of Anglican Catholicism". There are two facets of what Catholic means. The first mention recorded of the word is by St Ignatius who understood it as the congregation joining with the bishop for the Holy Eucharist, and the bishops in communion with each other. St Cyril of Jerusalem and St Vincent of Lérins see Catholic as more of an adherence to the traditional orthodoxy of the Church. These are the definitions (one practical, one doctrinal) marry together in the Nicene Creed. Thus for the Orthodox Church, St Cyril's understanding means that Catholicism means Orthodoxy and vice versa. I've recorded a video about the Canon of St Vincent, do check it out if you haven't already.
I’ve also wondered what the differences are as well because even though I personally identify myself as an Anglican catholic I attend an evangelical Anglican Church as there isn’t an Anglican Catholic Church in my area. I also wondered what the differences are between the Roman Catholic mass and the Anglican catholic mass?
The consecration, or canon of the Mass, is the most profound difference. The BCP and the missals generally conform to the old Western use while the Roman consecration is a modified Jewish table grace these days. That does not mean it is invalid however.
The Anglican Catholic Church, does, as far as I know, not celebrate the Novus Ordo Mass (which is in my opinion good). However, they keep the tradition and Celebrate Mass according to the English Missal, the Book of Common Prayer 1549 or even Sarum Mass. All those liturgies are very profound and celebrated with great reverence. The Novus Ordo? Well for me it's "like smoking without inhaling" or to put it in other words: they have lost a lot and that's also a big part of the crisis in the church...
Fr. Jonathan: Birettas and beautiful vestments are rather Anglo or Anglican Catholic these days: I sometimes wonder when we will see RC priests wearing pjyamas😂 oh, this was wicked I know 🤣🤣🤣🤣
A distinction is a difference otherwise it wouldn't be a distinction. If you think it's anglo-catholicism with extra steps then those steps make the difference. If you don't understand what the steps are then either rewatch the video or go and do something more valuable with your time.
(As a Catholic)Still very much confucius! 🙄🤔 I think I'd need to get out, into it, more! There is some Catholic Church of sorts it seems in Germany but, that doesn't stop priest from being married.
There are married Roman Catholic priests! He might be a convert from the Eastern Orthodox or even a member of the Anglican Ordinariate (I e. a convert to Roman Catholicism through Anglicanorum Coetibus). On the other hand, he might be an Old Catholic.
Priest are permitted to marry in Germany, unless they do it secretly. They may be Greek Othodox or Coptic, but Roman Catholic priests are not married. The Anglican Church cam about through Henry VIII with his six wives. I will not say anymore about that.
There have been some comments of an uncharitable nature who have argued:
Anglican=National
Catholic=Global
Therefore Anglican Catholic is inconsistent.
The trouble is that Anglican is not a noun, it is an adjective roughly synonymous with English.
This, just as there are parts of the Catholic Church which have a particular ethnicity and culture such as the Russian, Greek, Armenian and Roman (i.e. Latin Rite) expressions of Catholicism, so there is an Anglican Catholicism which expressions its adherence to the One Catholic Faith through the Anglican milieu.
Of course, some might say, the Russian, Greek and Armenian Churches are Orthodox, not Catholic. I'll let these people tell those Churches that and see how they fare!
@@Warwickensis I myself was born into the Roman Church before Vatican II. Needless to say, the collapse of faith and morals amongst the hierarchy drove me into Orthodoxy. However, after thirty-some years, I find myself alienated from all sides, culturally, not theologically. I want a home in my own ethnic church, but I know not where that might be. Perhaps part of my problem is the fact I'm American where all European ethnicities have amalgamated, myself being the offspring of a Green Irish mother and an Orange Irish father. Yes, we held fights in the living room after supper.
@@memlagu that's hard for you not knowing where you are to belong. Ultimately, we strive for the home in Heaven which surpasses even the best experience of Church here on Earth. Nonetheless, I pray that you find somewhere that you can call your spiritual home.
for those interested read fr Jonathan's book 'Anglican Catholicism: Unchanging Faith In a Changing World'
I didn't know there were Anglican Catholic Church parishes in the UK. I've been to two here in the US and they had a lovely liturgy and lovely people.
We're very small and concentrated mainly in the South East of the UK but we're growing slowly.
Thanks for this. Well done, Father.
Thank you for this, it was extremely helpful.
You're very welcome!
Why does everyone in Western Europe hate Roman Catholicism so much. Is everyone named Calvin there or what.
I can't answer that but I have stated, and will state again, that I have no hatred to the Roman Catholic Church. Indeed, if people can accept its authority then I urge them to be part of that church.
Like the other Anglican Catholics, I just don't accept its claim that the whole church subsists in the Holy See.
God bless the Pope!
I don't agree....depends which countries you regard at Western Europe, I'm talking France, Spain, Portugal, Ireland just to mention a few. These countries may not be observant catholic but they are all culturally catholic.
I was hoping someone would clarify this. As someone coming from an American Puritan "tradition," it was hard to distinguish which was which at first.
Thankfully, God is merciful and helped me get sorted out. Haha.
I hope it does clarify things for you and for everyone.
As a Roman Catholic, what would be your stance if an Anglican Catholic had no Anglican Catholic Churches nearby? Would they stay home, go to a different Apostolic church or go to a Protestant church
That's quite a common scenario for us. What I usually suggest is for Anglican Catholics to worship at a Roman Catholic or Orthodox Church and make a spiritual communion in respect of our unfortunate situation of walking apart. While it was available, many of our "homeless" Anglican Catholics enjoyed the Extraordinary Form.
One other observation. As an RC, I find it interesting that you insist upon reading the BCP through the beliefs of the first 7 ecumenical councils and tradition. In a sense this is very similar to Benedict's insistence that the NO and the Council were to be understood by the hermeneutics of continuity and not that of rupture so fashionable in the present (very dubious) papacy.
Perhaps Pope Benedict was a closet Anglican Catholic? 😉😁
Benedict's view was rooted in the realities of historical development. He was not a hyper papalist in the distorted way Francis is. Francis' abuse of his office is beyond the pale. If by Anglican Catholic one means an adherence to the historic teachings of the Church found in the Councils and the insistence on ones duty to defend them as for RCs found in Pastor Aeternus, the document that defines and LIMITS the reach of papal infallibility then I suppose the answer is an ironic yes, at least in my humble opinion.
@JohnFDonovan-by1nt he was a great man and a very underappreciated mind. Santo subito!
The odd thing is that as an RC I sympathize with the position of the Caroline divines in the sense that as one who opposes the NO madness in the church, (The No is valid, and has a few good point in spite of it being a period committee creation) like these divines, Catholics of my stripe have to tread very carefully because the official establishment Roman church regards us as with as much love and the same suspicion Elizabeth had of her Catholic subjects. Because we live in a more civilized age (in some respects not all) we are not being drawn and quartered for treason but we are denounced as rigid, narrow minded, bigoted and psychologically unstable. I admire those divines for their quiet courage and the dilemma they faced trying to remain Catholic in an establishment gone wild.
You're very correct. Everything about Man has become noisy with the ease of communication. I think this decade especially, even the souls of men and women are being subjected to a barrage of spiritual noise where once there was a calm exposition of the Faith by the Church.
I think keeping one's head down with what one knows best is the course to take. It's how we operate in the Anglican Catholic Church and how the Roman Catholic Church used to operate. I agree with Pope John XXIII in that sometimes we need to open the window to blow the cobwebs away. The trouble is that he chose to open the window during a force 9 gale!
60 years later the gale is still blowing!
What are you thoughts on Lutheranism? Specifically orthodox Lutheranism which holds to its confessions and has Bishops.
It's rather difficult for me living in a country where the National Church is so dominant to have a coherent thoughts about what is a rather minority group.
I am not a Lutheran doctrinally and I have explained in other videos where Anglican Catholicism stands with respect to the Solas.
Saying that, I once spent some time in Göttingen and, not being a strong speaker of German, I attended Mass at the Lutheran Church there. It was a very rewarding experience for me. I could follow the Mass and even knew the hymns which were played with the wonderful organ preambles one might expect from Bach.
My hope is that we find commonality and purpose in the Gospel together.
It reminds me of the of the debate in my world on whether we should be Anglican evangelicals or evangelical Anglicans. A former Archbishop of Sydney believed the latter while other "heavies" in the diocese believed the former. But even that Archbishop once got himself mixed up in public and wasn't sure which expression to use!
I think the Enlightenment rejection of Aristotelian philosophy may explain a little of the confusion. It depends on what one regards as one's essence and what qualifies it. If one doesn't have a good appreciation for the distinction, then one is bound to confuse the two.
As a member of the Eastern Orthodox Church, what are thoughts, as an Anglican priest, on the Orthodox church? I noticed you have icons which really surprised me.
Well, this is the thing. I'm not an Anglican priest, but an Anglican Catholic priest. One difference you have already picked up on: the Anglican Church only subscribes officially to four Oecumenical Councils; the Anglican Catholic Church subscribes to all seven, including Nicaea II. This means we recognise the importance of ikons. I have many which I find essential to my appreciation of the reality of Heaven.
As for my thoughts on the Orthodox Church, they are the same thoughts of appreciation, affection and esteem that I have for the Roman Catholic Church. My prayer is that, one day, we find a common approach whereby we are united into one visible communion as a witness to the World of the reality of Our Lord Jesus Christ in His Church, His word and His sacraments.
@@Warwickensis God bless you, Father. I am an Eastern (Roman) Catholic, and I have much to learn from you. I share your hope for unity.
Thank you. God bless you, too.
Thank you for these videos Father, they have been extremely helpful as i learn about the Anglican Catholic Church. Can catholics in communion with Rome recieve communion at anglican catholic churches? Also, if one desired to join the church, would one have to "convert" from Roman Catholicism?
Hello! Thank you for the kind words.
A Roman Catholic can indeed receive the Eucharist in an Anglican Catholic Church provided they are confirmed and believe in the Real Presence (not something to be taken for granted these days). My only concern is that in receiving at an Anglican Catholic church, Roman Catholic would be going against the edicts of their church so they would need to square that with their conscience first.
We don't require conversion, but anyone who wants to join us from another church may be received formally by the bishop or his representative.
@@Warwickensis Thank you so much for the information Father! I'm technically eastern Catholic and believe all of the truths of the faith of the undivided church. I'm currently struggling with certain "developments" such as the papal claims as well as the belief that other apostolic Christians are severed from the body of Christ; hence why I've been researching Anglican Catholicism.
Thank you for the very enlightening account. Why don't we all come together around the successor of Peter?
"I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven: whatever you bid on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." Matt 16:19
Well, remember we have different interpretations of that verse, so until we agree on what that verse means, we have to keep the dialogue going.
I have watched your videos and have had a wonderful conversation with you on the Anglican Catholic Church's view on the Anglican Ordinariate. I guess what I am still not understanding is what the Anglican Catholic Church's understanding of the word "Catholic" is. As a Roman Catholic, I understand it as meaning belonging to or in communion with the Catholic Church under the Pope. This includes "normal" Roman Catholics as well as those in the Anglican Ordinariate as well as Eastern Catholics.
...
Now, I understand some groups, such as certain Protestants, will use "catholic" typically with a lowercase "c" to describe any and all Christians, possibly out of a desire to fit into the "holy, catholic, and apostolic Church" described in the Apostle's Creed. Certain people in the Anglican Church also use it to describe themselves as high-church-oriented rather than low-church-oriented. I think this is the group of people you describe as "Anglo-Catholics" in the video, and it was what my grandfather considered himself as a priest in the Episcopal Church before he became a Roman Catholic priest in the early 1980s.
...
So how does the Anglican Catholic Church understand the term "Catholic" and how do Anglican Catholics mean it when describing their church? Does it mean simply that they are Christian? Does it mean that they have high-church practices? You stressed in the video that the Anglican Catholic Church is not Rome-bound, so I assume it doesn't mean that it has a goal of joining or being adjacent to the Catholic Church.
I've written about this topic in my book "The Meaning of Anglican Catholicism".
There are two facets of what Catholic means. The first mention recorded of the word is by St Ignatius who understood it as the congregation joining with the bishop for the Holy Eucharist, and the bishops in communion with each other.
St Cyril of Jerusalem and St Vincent of Lérins see Catholic as more of an adherence to the traditional orthodoxy of the Church.
These are the definitions (one practical, one doctrinal) marry together in the Nicene Creed. Thus for the Orthodox Church, St Cyril's understanding means that Catholicism means Orthodoxy and vice versa.
I've recorded a video about the Canon of St Vincent, do check it out if you haven't already.
I’ve also wondered what the differences are as well because even though I personally identify myself as an Anglican catholic I attend an evangelical Anglican Church as there isn’t an Anglican Catholic Church in my area. I also wondered what the differences are between the Roman Catholic mass and the Anglican catholic mass?
I hope this answers some of your questions! 🙂
The consecration, or canon of the Mass, is the most profound difference. The BCP and the missals generally conform to the old Western use while the Roman consecration is a modified Jewish table grace these days. That does not mean it is invalid however.
The Anglican Catholic Church, does, as far as I know, not celebrate the Novus Ordo Mass (which is in my opinion good). However, they keep the tradition and Celebrate Mass according to the English Missal, the Book of Common Prayer 1549 or even Sarum Mass. All those liturgies are very profound and celebrated with great reverence. The Novus Ordo? Well for me it's "like smoking without inhaling" or to put it in other words: they have lost a lot and that's also a big part of the crisis in the church...
Fr. Jonathan: Birettas and beautiful vestments are rather Anglo or Anglican Catholic these days: I sometimes wonder when we will see RC priests wearing pjyamas😂 oh, this was wicked I know 🤣🤣🤣🤣
I don't know. I saw a photo of a deacon serving Mass in a stole and what looked like a dressing gown . I don't know which jurisdiction he belonged to.
Just sounds like Anglo-Catholic with extra steps.
"Steps" matter.
I don't understand the objection. Theological processes are incredibly important. If you don't believe so, count yourself amongst the secularists.
@@MisterDevel To me it just seems like a distinction without a difference
A distinction is a difference otherwise it wouldn't be a distinction.
If you think it's anglo-catholicism with extra steps then those steps make the difference. If you don't understand what the steps are then either rewatch the video or go and do something more valuable with your time.
(As a Catholic)Still very much confucius! 🙄🤔 I think I'd need to get out, into it, more! There is some Catholic Church of sorts it seems in Germany but, that doesn't stop priest from being married.
There are married Roman Catholic priests! He might be a convert from the Eastern Orthodox or even a member of the Anglican Ordinariate (I e. a convert to Roman Catholicism through Anglicanorum Coetibus). On the other hand, he might be an Old Catholic.
Priest are permitted to marry in Germany, unless they do it secretly. They may be Greek Othodox or Coptic, but Roman Catholic priests are not married. The Anglican Church cam about through Henry VIII with his six wives. I will not say anymore about that.
The Anglican Church came about through Jesus Christ. Its separation from the Roman Church came about through Henry VIII and Pope Clement VII.
Grace to you, father. Love from Australia.