Let me know what you'd like to see next! I will start working on the next one tomorrow, at the moment, it seems Enhancement Shaman has a lot of demand!
@@gregbrown1311 That's a great point, I hadn't thought to check the threat modifier on it! I guess you'd need to be happy with the damage intake *and* your threat buffer then, to drop it down the prio list for more direct damage. Thanks for the contribution!
@@gregbrown1311 Holy Shield isn't our best threat generator since it's never guaranteed to proc unless you manage to achieve 100% block chance with it, which isn't possible.
@@gregbrown1311 Consecration CANNOT be resisted, missed, etc. I'm not sure where you got that information. On boss fights, Alliance Paladins don't use SoR - They use SoV which doesn't rely on hit rating to cause damage once applied and thus threat. Because Holy Shield requires attacks to be blocked in order to build threat, Paladins tend to max out at about 50-55% chance it'll proc. It ALSO relies on the mob attacking you; their speed, and that you don't dodge or parry the attack initially.
@@gregbrown1311 Despite never witnessing my Consecration being resisted, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. However, that still leaves 7 ticks of damage over the course of 7 seconds. In terms of reliability, that still outweighs Holy Shield. Yes, Holy Shield has a damage modifier which increases the threat AND an extra threat modifier, but again, that only works if it actually procs. Taking into account that we're discussing Horde, the threat generated by SoR (When it does damage) is not the main threat boost in many situations in raids since 90% of them include Undead/Demon mobs so we count on Exorcism for our threat boosts. With SoR active, using a weapon of 2.0 speed or quicker, we'd land about 5 attacks during the duration of Holy Shield. Now, with Precision, you already have an increase of 3% to your hit rating. So, it's not hard to reach a sufficient amount of hit rating to ensure most attacks actually land. At the same time, every 10 seconds you can judge the mob. At the end of the day, your argument can be made invalid with the fact that SoR procs CAN be adjusted in terms of ensuring they always hit by increasing your hit rating accordingly. Holy Shield has no way of being guaranteed to proc.
@@gregbrown1311 I'm not sure why you brought mana usage into this as it doesn't fit the original conversation. Holy Shield relies on blocking, right? 1.) That means that it's 100% useless against casters that aren't out of mana and meleeing you. 2.) Without 100% block chance, there is a chance that you won't block (Be it from dodging, missing, parrying or just straight up taking the full damage) Your side of the argument is relying on blocking every attack with Holy Shield and generating the threat but you won't go through all 8 charges on a boss fight in a ten second time frame because of the typical swing timer of a boss. (Or trash mob, for that matter) Assuming our character in question only has a shield and weapon equipped, your block chance is nothing more than the baseline chance granted. (I think it's what, 5%?) For a total of 35%. Now, considering we used talents as well, we'd have +3% Melee and Spell Hit Rating. Which means, we would have a decent chance for SoR to happen and Judgement to hit AND we'd still have Consecration threat. Is Holy Shield's threat good? Yeah, absolutely. In fact, it's awesome. BUT, for the sake of reliability, it's not our best threat ability since, for the tenth time, it's not guaranteed and we don't benefit from the 8 charges on boss fights.
In the Pre-raid sense, Paladins gear up the same as Warriors do, minus the Libram and Weapon choice. And as a note, Protection Paladins are quite a one-man wrecking crew in PvP.
i have a shield and a 1h weap, with no other tanking gear just plate. at level 60 can i reliably make the switch to protection without other tanking gear?
I picked up TBCC a while ago and got me a prot pally going. The first thing i ruled out in the skill tree was "Reckoning", as there are so much better choices in the tree. I'm doing primarily PvE and as I'm the tank, I'll leave the damage dealing to the others. And as you said, I could imagine that the damage output of the talent whimsey. "Precision" and "One Handed Weapon Specialization" offer so much more. And what does an extra swing add, if it misses. 😅
For pvp, you can play a holy/prot spec like 34/27/0, go for sacred duty/reckoning, stack spell power or healing/sp and pickup a crafted 2h mace called hammer of righteous might, for when reckoning procs, you would be a healer/dispeller, and you can pump out 4-5k dmg instantly, with very strong SoR swings after that also.
Wouldn't you still want improved might just to have it because of the 8% mana from being healed by others? I agree more mana reduction is really nice but being able to boost dungeons or even 10man raids meele in those cases you may not have another pally?
Stupid question: can i forgo some prot talents for pursuit of justice and improved ret aura? I know ret aura is good on threat so wouldnt that be a good investment?? Also being able to move fast on dungeons seems important.
Not a stupid question at all, tuning will be the important part to deciding properly but it's probably fine to drop ardent defender for more threat points since its not too amazing.
“Pursuit of Justice” - This talent is GREAT, but NOT for the speed enhancements provided. The level of avoidance this provides is quite spectacular and shouldn’t be overlooked. We can enchant our boots with “Boar’s Speed” to increase our stamina by 9, and our movement speed by about 8%. The only thing this enchant doesn’t affect would be our mounted movement speed, but we get Crusader Aura at level 62 and the two don’t stack. “Improved Retribution Aura” - This talent and spell do help with threat generation, for sure. There’s a couple of questions you have to ask yourself, though, first: 1.) Am I off-tanking raids? a. If you are off-tanking most of your time in raids, you won’t be taking enough physical damage for this to be worth spending 2 points in b. You’d theoretically be better off putting points into “Divine Intellect” since your incoming damage will be too low to rely on “Spiritual Attunement” 2.) Am I main-tanking raids? a. Some tankable bosses in raids are casters and thus Retribution Aura won’t generate any threat since it requires physical attacks b. Heck, some bosses aren’t even tankable, so your aura is completely worthless on them 3.) Am I focusing on running heroics? a. Unless you completely out-gear the heroic dungeon in question, you will find yourself getting hit VERY hard and thus will benefit GREATLY from “Ardent Defender” 4.) Am I focusing on running regular dungeons? a. For the most part, your spec doesn’t matter much in regular dungeons with the exception of maybe Arcatraz, Botanica, and Mechanar
Atm Prot paladins are having some pretty big mana issues, to the point where they are dropping Avengers entirely (not even talenting it), but it should be far better at 70 mana wise. Avenger's shield is definitely only in cases of comfy mana + need to push threat/damage; not sure I made that super clear back in this vid!
Nice overview. Regarding the professions - I so hope people are fed up enough with the Meta that they will not chase drums.. I mean, we all know it will happen and people will whisper you left and right telling you to unlearn enchanting and learn letherworking because it's ThEmEtA but ..we can all dream of a better place to be
I agree, I wouldn't be upset if they nerf the hell out of drums. That said though, sometimes the compulsion to do the 'correct' thing is too stronk, at least for me haha.
I believe that casting a spell makes it so that you cannot block, parry, or dodge so trying to maintain Avenger's Shield on CD may cause you to take larger amounts of damage during encounters.
Yeah 100%, I think I mentioned it somewhere but you're right, you need to be picky with avenger's shield in-combat for both mana and damage intake reasons. Fortunately its quite a short cast, so its not too awful if you are tracking boss swing timers.
I would not avengers shield in combat. It costs so much mana. Consecrate does more threat per mana due to the better scaling, so you want to cast that first if you have extra mana. While TBC does help prot paladin with mana, it isnt anywhere near enough to be casting conc and avengers sheild on cooldown. The only time I use shield is if I lose threat on an untauntanble boss and I need burst threat, that is it. Also, if it is an undead or demon boss, you should use exorcism. Avengers shield is for pulling.
@@KnotxD I just did the math. Avengers shield costs 780 mana and does (at the top end) 600 damage. Consecrate costs 660 mana and does 512 damage. This means Avenging shield does .773 damage per mana (again, best case, .633 worst case), and consecrate does .776. Already, consecrate does better threat on single target per mana than avengers shield does in its best case (you can call average case shield about .703). The spell power coefficient is based on cast time (for 'single target' spells which avenging shield is considered, it just bounces), and under 1.5 seconds is considered 'instant cast' 43%. Concecrate was buffed to all hell and is at 90%. With 400 spell power (which is reasonable with buffs and gear in early tiers) you would be looking at .994 damage per mana (best case) for shield and 1.321 damage per mana for consecrate. Why does this matter? A paladin in tanking gear is and buffs is going to have around 6,000 mana. Lets just say you cast shield and consecrate at the same time (the CD is similar) that means you are going to be spending 1440 mana every 8 seconds, meaning after 4 rotations (32 seconds) you are going to have 240 mana which isnt even enough for holy shield. You will then get crushed by the boss and die. Now this does exclude mana regen, but it also excludes actually using any spells during that time. In short, avengers shield is great for pulling, but that is it. It costs too much mana, and mana management is critical to excel as a prot paladin. Every avengers shield you cast is a consecrate you cant, and as we have looked, consecrate simply does more damage and more threat. You only reason you even use shield on pull is because 1. It is your only ranged spell and 2. you want a threat buffer so your healers dont rip agro off you.
Yeah you can acquire more than enough stats to do well as a prot pally in 5mans cause the spec is so well suited to handling AoE threat. That said though, if you have super geared casters, it could be difficult without raid gear.
@@KnotxD While it is possible to tank heroics/raids using Arena gear, it is important to note that there is a minimum amount of resilience needed to be defence capped. Without it, you're going to die... a LOT. However, purely stacking resilience from your PvP gear is not ideal, either, since you'll be missing out on precious mitigation stats and will often not be able to maintain crush immunity in that gear.
@@buttonmashers7133 For sure, maybe I misunderstood, I thought he was asking about just all non-raid loot, but you're right, exclusively arena gear would be a little awkward. I was thinking more like pre-raid BiS with an arena weapon and shield perhaps!
@@KnotxD You are absolutely 100% without a doubt correct for the weapon choice since Gladiator's Gavel from Season 1 Arena is legitimately BiS past Karazhan and will do well until much later.
Thunderfury is trash tier for Prot Pala in TBC to be honest. Least it will be cool in Shattrath. If we get the TF nerf on TBC release it will also be very meh even for warriors.
Kind of, but not really. Paladins had a talent called, “Touched by the Light,” which increased their spell power by 60% (when 3/3) of their total strength. So, in theory, one could argue that strength increased your spell power as long as you had that talent - you don’t organically get spell power from strength in any expansion.
I tried 2 Manning stratholme on my fresh 60 pal and 60 mage (playing both toons). The pal really had a hard time holding agro with my mage doing blizzard. Mage had salvation on as well so I guess my pals 70sp just wasn’t cutting it. I could have held off on blizzard for a bit but my paladin wasn’t going to be able to self heals for very long. I was able to clear the trash but it wasn’t clean at all, the mage ended up having to just solo the trash at 50%
Yeah the level 60 itemisation stinks compared to what kind of gear is available at 70. I wouldnt worry but it is a good example of what early 70 might be like because there is a bit of a juggling act between defensive stats and spell power to maintain threat. Over time you'll have both though and honestly it's great.
Technically, the "best" race for a Paladin tank would be Human, not Dwarf. Stoneform doesn't equate to a Human's weapon specialization since Expertise DOES help tanks of any class. Stoneform's 10% armor increase is also not enough of a factor since it's only equal to about 1,200 armor on a pre-raid geared tank. The fights that have bleeds that a Paladin encounters are A.) Few and far between and B.) We can Bubble and immediately remove the bubble to maintain our threat level while removing the bleed effect. Expertise isn't necessarily about the threat generation as much as it is about the mitigation; Parry Haste in regards to bosses.
@@Deya1337 Paladins benefit just the same as any other tank given how fast our weapon speed is, coupled with any haste buffs we may have at the time. Paladins may in fact benefit more than Warriors in this case since they don't have the same level of mitigation Warriors do.
In what circumstance would you ever use seal of blood on a prot paladin? It is based on weapon damage and prot paladins want spellbades as concecrate scales super well in TBC. For tanking you will always use seal of righeous, unless you think the fight will last more than a few minutes. At that point you can, if you want, seal twist vengence with righteousness, using righeousness for autos and then swaping to vengence to refresh the stacks and judge. Blood is just bad on prot.
“Crystalforged Sword” is an amazingly underrated weapon that doesn’t get nearly enough press or praise. Unfortunately, it appears it will be available in Phase 3 rather than Phase 1.
So I normally play paladin in retail, never played in vanilla, boosted one for tbc, and have no idea how to even play paladin tank with all the 47 abilities I have 😩
reckoning is prity usefull if you have "on hit" effects or trinkets...i would not ignore it just to deal 1more dmg on my consecration every tick... every time you parry you lose 1 durability (or use to be) unless they changed it..and seens prot has spell caster weapons mostly in the start it might be worth avoding it until you get a solid mace with high durability
@@PukkaEditz Reckoning is NOT a good idea, whatsoever, until you are Hit/Expertise Capped since the boss can dodge or parry your attacks, along with the chance for your attacks to miss.
Most bosses have a swing timer of 3 seconds even when you include additional melee casts, sometimes more, sometimes less, you can easily put the 1second AShield cast inside the windows if you're comfortable with the encounters - the only thing you have to be careful of is if you get parried which makes the swing timer shorter ofc; but mana dries up pretty quick so its unlikely to be able to be used literally on CD even if you're keeping track of swings.
So reckoning is actually really good in combination with seal of wisdom. This doesnt really matter in heroics, but on hyjal trash it can be a lifesaver.
"Reckoning" is NOT good unless you have reached cap for Expertise, since if you have a weapon with a speed of less than 2.0, it will provide 8 chances for a boss to parry, rather than the average 4 attacks. Also, when you get better gear, your chance of it procing decreases.
It's really bad. As has been pointed out, Reckoning increases your risk for being parry-gibbed, which is very bad. And using it for seal of wisdom - or any seal for that matter - really just doesn't provide enough benefit. Most of your mana recovery is going to come from spiritual attunement, which in a situation where you are AoE tanking you're going to be getting plenty of heals to trigger that, surpassing any benefit from seal of wisdom.
For sure, but the points are pretty tight. Perhaps if tuning is even lower than expected, you would take points from things like Spell Warding - but at 2% proc chance per point its quite a steep cost. A variation does move the BoK point into Reckoning and if you're unavoidably over 102.4% mitigation, you might consider moving points from anticipation. However, if you can move those stats around to just get more spell damage, that's going to be preferable for the big threat from Judging.
@@KnotxD Before anyone takes Reckoning, they need to realize that it depends exclusively on their weapon and its speed. Anything over 2.0 weapon speed makes Reckoning 100% useless since you won't benefit from the entire effect. The other concern with Reckoning is that it would rely on you actually hitting the mob or boss, which would see to it that you'd be focusing on hitting 9% hit while Paladins should be focusing on other stats to gem for or gear for. THE other thing is that weapons below that 2.0 weapon speed wouldn't see enough of a threat boost from Seal of Righteousness "proccing" due to Reckoning since the damage from SoR is reduced on faster weapons. You should NEVER remove points from Anticipation since some for some fights, tanks will opt to use certain pieces of gear. (Higher block rating, dodge, hit, etc.) And removing 20 defence skill GREATLY limits your options in terms of switching out gear pieces. I do find it interesting that you mention that you shouldn't give up Spell Warding, yet you didn't choose to spec into Pursuit of Justice - the one talent that helps your mitigation against spell casters IMMENSLY. (Remove Improved Judgement and 1 point from Ardent Defender and max out Pursuit of Justice for a 3% reduction in your chance to be hit by spells)
Really great addition to this discussion man, thank you so much! Regarding Spell Warding versus/and also taking Pursuit, I guess its an interesting tension. I'm not much of a gambling man, I think I'd take the 6% guaranteed mitigation on spell damage, but I appreciate the point you're making - there's definitely a choice to consider!
@@KnotxD I apologize, I didn't see this comment until now. It would all depend on how you look at it. Reducing the chance you'll be hit by spells by 3% would reduce the amount of damage you take, thus prolonging the Ardent Defender proc.
I used to pvp as a prot pally in tbc. I did....ALRIGHT. I mainly just served as a healer/hp sponge/distraction for my cousin's hunter. We did OK. Idr what PVP rating I ended w/ in TBC, because I went from OT to MT in late TBC and all of WOTLK
You do not really take spell warding and argent defender talents. Yes 4% less damage taken from spells is good. But you have issues in surviving the physical attacks until you are t6 geared. Argent defender you do not take, unless you are very geared. Because when you drop below 35% hp the next hit usually kills you either way. The -30% damage isn't really good if your dead. Unlike druids and warriors you actually struggle to maintain high hp pool until you are insanely geared. You would be forced to use engineering 45 stamina trinkets for a while. Just to maintain some relevant hp value. You would be better off with Reckoning coz you do struggle with single target threat. And 2nd of all you can always use it with Seal of Wisdom. And pump your mana back. With mana pots / dark runes / healing. You will still run out of mana as a paladin. (ofc depends on the tuning and fight duration)
This isn’t a knock on this video maker directly, just a general opinion of mine of video makers as a whole. Why do video makers have to blah blah for 60-90 seconds at the beginning of 99.9% of every video they make before actually starting the point of the video? Also, why do you they have to spend 20 seconds talking about the title of the video and what the video is about when...guess what...we already read the title of the video and know what it is going to be about? Again, not directing this at this video maker specifically, just a generalization I’ve noticed and I’m finally mentioning it here. That being said, this video is great once it actually started into the info itself. 👍
I try to avoid discussing much other than the point of the video. My intro exists so people can click off before they go ahead basically, in my mind it's a courtesy but I can see why its frustrating. One thing you won't find is me discussing ad nauseam the subscribe, like etc stuff. As naive as it may be, I hope the video encourages that by itself. Glad to hear you still enjoyed the video though!
no points in Improved Seal of Righteousness? in classic, it doesn't improve the spellpower scaling, but even 15% of the base damage should be great for threat, and they might have improved it in tbc) additionnal information on SoR : in classic, the scaling of Seal of Righteousness is static, making fast weapons really good once you have spellpower (that's why some spellpower ret are using manual crowd pummeler in classic), if it's the same in tbc, fast caster weapons will become bis for prot pallies not a lot of your kit is affected by spellhit. I would probably rank regular hit higher in single target. Consecration isn't affected by any hit, as it's a dot on the ground (hence why it takes a debuff slot in classic, and isn't affected by the aoe-target-number nerf that everyone else got in tbc. I would suggest try to get melee hitcap and focus primarly on raw sp for threat Seal of blood scale with weapon dmg, and not with sp, it makes it pretty poor to use as tank.
1.) “Improved Seal of Righteous” is the same in TBC as it was in Classic/Vanilla - in other words, it wasn’t improved 2.) For someone to obtain the 15% increase, they would have to sacrifice 10 talent points which are better spent on mitigation and survivability talents - which talents would you give up? 3.) Similar to Classic/Vanilla, Protection Paladins rely on spell damage weapons of any speed (most of which are faster since they’re not immediately intended for melee damage) - This isn’t exclusive to Burning Crusade 4.) Hit Rating is a catch-22; we want as much as possible while maintaining our defensive stats mainly for our Righteous Defence ability which relies on melee and not spell hit rating, but the less we miss the more chance of us being parried-hasted 5.) As a Protection Paladin, neither hit ratings should be any bit of concern for you. Focusing on either provides the Paladin a lack of defensive stats which we are in dire need of from the get-go to maintain crush and crit immunity
Where are you going to get the points for improved seal of righteous? Prot paladins have 58 absolutely essential talents, and 3 talents to spend on what they want. Unfortuently, improfed SoR is tier 2 holy so you wont even get past the intelect talent with those 3 points. So where to cut points? You could cut the 2 improved judgement points from ret. This still doesnt give you enough to get SoR but, lets do that. That now gives us enough talents to get SoR if we can find five more talent points for it. You arnt taking points out of deflection, that just isnt happening. You need 41 points in protection (to get avengers shield) but that means that you need to skip combat expertise which is 10% BONUS STAMINA!!!!!!!!! It would be nice to have improved SoR, but it isnt going to happen.
@@blackfalcon1324 While I do agree that “Improved Seal of Righteousness” shouldn’t be on a Protection Paladin’s radar, your argument loses validity when you don’t actually explain the 58 “absolutely essential” talents. I imagine that you are including “Improved Judgement” since it’s mentioned in your comment, and that is far from being “absolutely essential.” I also imagine you are including “Ardent Defender” which does greatly benefit a Paladin, but it depends on your role and the content that you are doing and when you are doing it, so it wouldn’t be classified as “absolutely essential,” either. I’m not sure why you would jump to skipping “Combat Expertise” instead of thinking that people may skip “Ardent Defender.” Would I recommend sacrificing damage mitigation for a bit of extra damage on a seal that we won’t likely be using that extensively? No. But I AM saying it is more than possible to do so without sacrificing the +10% stamina boost from “Combat Expertise.”
@@swiftjuice168 My argument doesnt lose any validity. There are several guides out there that say 'these are the 58 essential talents for prot paladins and these are the places you can put the remaining 3.' I can link you some of those guides but no, I am not going to go into an in-depth analysis on every protection paladin talent in a youtube comment section. There are 15 minute videos and long guides online that do that. I figured that simply saying 'there are 58 talents that are deemed essential by about everyone who knows what they are talking about' is enough, but if you want me to link you some guides let me know.
"Dreaenei racial is not gonna be useful, if you have other draenei palas, warriors or hunters in your grp" xD I was literally rolling on the floor laughing at the suggestion ppl are gonna play any of these classes on Draenei xD Draeneis will be shamans, because... you HAVE TO. That's it xD I am seriously considering playing my prot pala as Draenei, because I'm reasonably certain there wont be any other in my raid providing that aura...
You could, but that aura is going to be useless. It is party based and you will (should) be in the caster group for the spellpower totem and the shadow priest. You could put a prot paly in the melee group but you would be hard gimping yourself and as a tank you need to worry about yourself before everyone else. If you go oom or cant hold threat then it just doesnt matter.
@@blackfalcon1324 to be fair though, I never ran into mana problems in raids, as i usually require a lot of heal. Also as a pala you’re usually not tanking the focus target, which means you have time to build Aggro. Caster grp is surely beneficial, but I fail to see the need for it.
@@kingdingeling7992 I guess that depends on whether or not you are wanting to main tank or just be stuck being a trash tank for the whole expansion. Also if you are not maintain king the boss and taking damage, then you’re not going to get the effect of your spiritual attunement so you would have mana problems if you don’t have the bonus matter from the shadow priest. Ultimately, every read comp that I’ve seen from people who made protection paladin, puts it in the cast a group
dam, that 'melee" charity, you forgettin about hunters lol. To be fair you still don't really need imp might since it should probably be your holy pal in your 25 comp thats runnin imp might.
I was doing some testing on this recently after someone complained in a group. To the best of my understanding that isn't the case. Holy Sheild procs still, the damage from a spike on a shield still does damage, in terms of size of hits and amount of dodge/blocks I saw no difference. Maybe in high level raids it makes a difference compared to regular same level mobs, but I don't think this works like you described here in classic TBC.
Is shield specialization worth it? It increases the amount blocked by 30% but does anyone care about the amount blocked? I only care about the avoidance of redoubt. Sheild specialization seems like a waste to me.
3 points out of Shield Specialization looks really good in Pursuit of Justice. In my opinion. "Button Masher" mentioned Pursuit of Justice over spell warding in another comment. Why not both?
@@zacharyfreiberg8849 Shield Specialization sees to it that you block more damage. A 30% increase is quite significant, especially when Paladins are already behind Warriors in terms of mitigation from the onset. Pursuit of Justice should be used in conjunction with Spell Warding as they go hand-in-hand. I'm not sure what message you're referring to where I say to choose one over the other. Realistically speaking, a fine talent build would be: Legacy-WoW.com/tbc-talents/paladin-talents/?tal=0000000000000000000005305133500021025214510500500030000000000000
@@zacharyfreiberg8849 And just as a reference, Redoubt increases your chance to block, but without block value (added to by Shield Specialization) Redoubt won't benefit you as much as it can.
"Threat control is top notch" Have to disagree with this one. A *huge* amount of paladin threat in TBC is reactive, coming from effects that trigger when you successfully block. Holy Shield, shield spikes, retribution aura (which is significant since, like the others, it's buffed by righteous fury), blessing of sanctuary, not to mention many of the best trinkets available all contribute to your reactive threat, and far outpace the threat gains from consecration/judgement on a single target (obviously consecration is a fantastic tool for AoE, and obviously things like Avenger's Shield are very high threat but not something you'll actively cast in combat). In practice this meant two things: First, it was harder for other tanks to actively pull threat from a paladin tank on fights like Gurtogg Bloodboil, where you only had a divine shield window to pull ahead on threat from a paladin who could command an impressive threat lead if they began the fight with aggro. Second, it made it hard for a paladin to pull threat from another tank for the same reason, as so much of their threat only happens when they are being hit or actively blocking. I would list threat control as one of the cons for TBC prot paladin. Which isn't to say that you shouldn't play a prot pally, as they're still monsters in the right scenario.
I think that's a fair stance to have, there's definitely far less threat available without holy shield as you mention. Though to try elaborate on why I'm still of this opinion - In those awkward fights that require threat shifts without taunts, you would typically gear for threat as any tank would. Gurtogg, dependent on tuning, is the one encounter where this could be a sticking point and he isn't UD/Demon for the phat exorcisms. But you have avenging wrath, free use of avengers shield as you're not active tank whilst still chasing, and of course can double down with on use trinkets if really necessary. Feral druids and prot warriors especially don't really have the same kind of luxuries in that area. I guess my position is - maybe I made it sound too easy but I still think paladins have the best time chasing other tanks than the other way around (which you also alluded too with holy shield) - which has merits for those kinds of encounters. That said, unless your DPS are absolutely zero chill, worst case scenario you can remove Righteous Fury to allow the off tank to take over on these types of encounter. But I respect your opinion, if the tuning is done well, those encounters could be challenging in respect to threat management and its still not super simple for any tank including prot paladin.
@@KnotxD For sure. Don't get me wrong, it's still doable. I was a prot pally main in TBC and I did Gurtogg once or twice, but the amount of difficulty in arranging it so that I either could drop threat enough for the switch of if I had aggro, or build threat enough for the swap if I didn't, made it so that for the most part I did not tank on Gurtogg. It's just not an ideal fight for paladins, but that's the great thing about TBC, there are encounters for each tank to shine (even warlocks! lol)
@@celotharobar So, I thought I would weigh in on this conversation as it sounds interesting. 1.) Retribution Aura doesn't require any Paladin to block in order to be used - it just requires damage to befall the Paladin. 2.) Any Holy damage you deal has increased threat by Righteous Fury - not exclusively Retribution Aura. 3.) I, personally, found two examples of trinkets that add to your reactive threat: a.) Figurine of the Colussus - This DOES require blocks to work b.) Darkmoon Card: Vengeance - This does NOT require blocks to work and only needs damage taken 4.) As you pointed out, Consecration is an outstanding threat ability for AoE pulls, however, there's a few things to keep in mind: a.) Consecration is a DoT - this allows us to generate TPS, while being able to use other spells/abilities simultaneously, effectively boosting our TPS even more. b.) Paladins are the easiest tanks to increase threat generation since it improves with every point of spell damage we have. Pair the average Paladin tank with 200 extra SD with a Flask of Supreme Power and you have 350 right off the bat. That's Pre- raid. If we use higher-rank tier sets, we'd have even MORE.
@@celotharobar 5.) Tanking wasn't, isn't, and never will be about surpassing each other's threat and fighting over aggro. If the boss is constantly bouncing between tanks, that will lead to either or both of them dying since the healers' attention is constantly changing. Warriors/Druids have a minimum of two taunt abilities that they can utilize to taunt off the Paladin. Paladins were capable of taunting and maintaining threat even on bosses that aren't Undead or Demon. (Which equals about 60% of raid bosses) 6.) If a tank of any class has problems maintaining threat, it's as simple as taunting to match the tank's threat, and then having them taunt back (Rinse and repeat if necessary) to ensure the tanks have the top threat spots.
@@celotharobar Also, also... If we look at Paladin's spells/abilities, we'll notice that only one of these requires the Paladin to block an attack to produce threat. Which is equal to approximately 17% of our abilities - far less than a "huge amount." 1.) Consecration 2.) Judgement 3.) Seal of Vengeance 4.) Retribution Aura 5.) Exorcism 6.) Holy Shield
You don't cast exorcism and avenger shield on CD. These are only used during the pull. Casting makes you unable to block or parry and you don't want that for obvious reasons.
This 'danger' is referenced. When you're not under duress, this is the highest single target TPS as far as I am aware. Also, Exorcism is instant (tbc-twinhead.twinstar.cz/?spell=10314 ). It is only avenger's shield you need to be picky with in regards to damage intake.
@@KnotxD I imagine Renaud wasn't looking at the correct tooltip for Exorcism as it did have a cast-time in Lich King (Patch 3.2.0) as it was allowed to be used on any type of mob starting in Patch 3.1.0
@@VorpalSliver Yeah I've heard from multiple sources taht eventually you'll want to drop the point in avenger's shield and put into sanc aura since most of the time you wont have a ret pally in your group. Plus spamming avenger's shield might be alot of threat but the mana costs in doing so just straight up doesn't seem worth it. You might be getting more threat per second but you'll end up running out of mana super quick and have less threat gained in total throughout the fight.
You forgot GBoK spam that will ensure that paladins have the highest single target threat in every tier, allowing them to build completely defensive tanking set and completely negate the huge downside of cluncky early game gearing.
Greater Blessing of Kings - the mana cost has increased to about 12% of your base mana (Average tank's mana going into Karazhan would be around 5,000; GBoK would cost 600 mana per cast) GBoK would also be less effective than in Classic since we won't have 39 other players in the raid which drastically reduces the amount of players per class to buff. Theoretically speaking, since the threat was based around 60 x 1.90 (60 Base Threat and Righteous Defence) multiplied by the number of players buffed - if we assume we have 6 of the same class, that'd be 684 threat for 600 mana while Consecration alone costs 660 mana and far surpasses that threat.
@@swiftjuice168 You're right it's not as good, but base mana is just under 4k for paladins so the best spell will be Wisdom which is 310 mana for 65 threat per target (since it's lvl 65 spell) so 65x1.9x5=617 threat for 310 mana which is not great but not terrible either, I doubt we will see any class stacked above 5. Good to use in your rotation when you have excess mana, but not spamworthy unless on something like Brutallus
@@grubi450 1.) Protection Paladins often have a minimum of 5,000 mana - often times exceeding this amount unbuffed. I welcome you to view some videos of Paladins tanking Karazhan here on RUclips. 2.) The threat generation from Greater Blessings was a bug that Blizzard never fixed in original Vanilla so there is always a chance they may rectify this with the release of Burning Crusade this time around. 3.) Can this provide decent threat? It definitely has the potential. Should Paladins rely on this method? Absolutely not. a.) This means that the Protection Paladin would be the one giving a certain class Wisdom with no added benefit from the Holy tree - "Improved Blessing of Wisdom" so they'd be missing out on about 9 MP5. b.) Going with this, the question would be whether or not the MP5 bonus would be reset every time you'd cast it on them. (It shouldn't, but then again, Blessings were never intended to provide additional threat with Righteous Fury, either.) I can see the desire for this but as of right now, we don't know whether Blizzard will in fact change this to what they originally intended or not.
@@swiftjuice168 classic.wowhead.com/news=295877/oct-28th-update-to-not-a-bug-list-thrash-mechanic-righteous-fury-sharpening-ston It was never a bug and mana cost is based on your base mana, not current mana, it always costs the same. I used wisdom as an example since it's the cheapest caster blessing that's gonna be used on your shamans, If you stack hunters you could go for improved Might which is cheaper at 295 mana. One thing is for sure, paladins are going to overtake warriors once we get geared and start farming content (Improved Wisdom won't matter when bosses die under 2 minutes), and especially in speedrunning where you'll stack classes.
@@grubi450 Righteous Fury affecting Holy SPELLS was in fact a bug in Vanilla as the initial intention was to affect Holy ATTACKS only. us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/righteous-fury-mechanics-op-paladin-threat-1k-tps/318279 You linked an article based on Classic WoW, not Vanilla.
@@KnotxD the proper threat spec is 0/41/20 you want to put only 2/5 in toughness 0/2 spell warding and 2/5 reckoning 0/5 ardent defender and put the extra points into improved seal of the crusader 3/3 pursuit of justice 15% movement speed at all times as a tank is mandatory and then you can put 2/2 improved retribution aura and 2/2 improved judgements or you can use those 4 points in ardent defender if your in blues or have bad heallers
i wouldnt suggest the heavy threat build unless your in a hardcore guild where threat is a major issue you know people who had duel wield tanks all through classic
@@swiftjuice168 you probably never played in a hardcore guild where DPS is threat capped and heallers are parsing so hard some defensive talents are being wasted
imagine not taking reckoning as a prot pally. What a boring life! Also seal of vengeance and seal of righteousness are spell damage and more attacks means more threat! But really its just fun. . .
@@KnotxD + michah larimer Seal of Vengeance is a DoT that is not affected by your melee attacks outside of refreshing its duration. So, the threat stays the same regardless of how many times you hit the target with SoV. Reckoning is a dangerous talent if you're not Expertise capped - the Hard Cap, not soft - which is nearly impossible to achieve. If you have a fast enough weapon to benefit from all 4 strikes, that would equal 8 melee attacks - literally an increase of 100% more attacks the boss has a chance to parry. In other words, you can be digging your own grave with this talent.
@@buttonmashers7133 Damn, thats a really good point, I hadn't thought of that or seen it in discussion. Parry haste could indeed be monstrous with so many swings not capped. Makes me understand more why the variant I found that sneaks a single point in, only goes for the single point.
@@buttonmashers7133 I was about to say more reckoning procs means more seal procs which means more threat but you make a great point. You cant proc if you're getting dodged and parried every swing. on top of SoV only being needed to be refreshed this makes alot of sense. I could see it being useful if you use righteousness instead of vengeance but at the same time might just be more worth to spec into other talents
I main'd a prot paladin on a few tbc private servers with great succes pretty much perfecting it imo.. you got a few things wrong mate... like the spec you choose to showcase is horrible (i know most paladins play something similar) but they are also horrible... anyways if u want some tips hit me up otherwise just act llike you never saw this lol
Let me know what you'd like to see next! I will start working on the next one tomorrow, at the moment, it seems Enhancement Shaman has a lot of demand!
@@gregbrown1311 That's a great point, I hadn't thought to check the threat modifier on it! I guess you'd need to be happy with the damage intake *and* your threat buffer then, to drop it down the prio list for more direct damage.
Thanks for the contribution!
@@gregbrown1311
Holy Shield isn't our best threat generator since it's never guaranteed to proc unless you manage to achieve 100% block chance with it, which isn't possible.
@@gregbrown1311
Consecration CANNOT be resisted, missed, etc. I'm not sure where you got that information.
On boss fights, Alliance Paladins don't use SoR - They use SoV which doesn't rely on hit rating to cause damage once applied and thus threat.
Because Holy Shield requires attacks to be blocked in order to build threat, Paladins tend to max out at about 50-55% chance it'll proc. It ALSO relies on the mob attacking you; their speed, and that you don't dodge or parry the attack initially.
@@gregbrown1311
Despite never witnessing my Consecration being resisted, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.
However, that still leaves 7 ticks of damage over the course of 7 seconds. In terms of reliability, that still outweighs Holy Shield. Yes, Holy Shield has a damage modifier which increases the threat AND an extra threat modifier, but again, that only works if it actually procs.
Taking into account that we're discussing Horde, the threat generated by SoR (When it does damage) is not the main threat boost in many situations in raids since 90% of them include Undead/Demon mobs so we count on Exorcism for our threat boosts.
With SoR active, using a weapon of 2.0 speed or quicker, we'd land about 5 attacks during the duration of Holy Shield. Now, with Precision, you already have an increase of 3% to your hit rating. So, it's not hard to reach a sufficient amount of hit rating to ensure most attacks actually land. At the same time, every 10 seconds you can judge the mob.
At the end of the day, your argument can be made invalid with the fact that SoR procs CAN be adjusted in terms of ensuring they always hit by increasing your hit rating accordingly. Holy Shield has no way of being guaranteed to proc.
@@gregbrown1311
I'm not sure why you brought mana usage into this as it doesn't fit the original conversation.
Holy Shield relies on blocking, right?
1.) That means that it's 100% useless against casters that aren't out of mana and meleeing you.
2.) Without 100% block chance, there is a chance that you won't block (Be it from dodging, missing, parrying or just straight up taking the full damage)
Your side of the argument is relying on blocking every attack with Holy Shield and generating the threat but you won't go through all 8 charges on a boss fight in a ten second time frame because of the typical swing timer of a boss. (Or trash mob, for that matter)
Assuming our character in question only has a shield and weapon equipped, your block chance is nothing more than the baseline chance granted. (I think it's what, 5%?) For a total of 35%. Now, considering we used talents as well, we'd have +3% Melee and Spell Hit Rating. Which means, we would have a decent chance for SoR to happen and Judgement to hit AND we'd still have Consecration threat.
Is Holy Shield's threat good? Yeah, absolutely. In fact, it's awesome. BUT, for the sake of reliability, it's not our best threat ability since, for the tenth time, it's not guaranteed and we don't benefit from the 8 charges on boss fights.
only decent prot pally guide i could find - and damn was your video really well hidden, glad i found it
I like this, being funny with a side of information is 👌.
I love the smell of consecration in the morning -a paladin raider in hyjal
Cant play the game anymore but its nice listening to you talk about it.
Thanks for the video, planning on 'resurrecting' my old TBC Paladin for Classic TBC :)
My new favorite channel , gj dude
This is really well made
Would be nice to see warrior and dru tank tips from u mate. Thanks for your videos !
In the Pre-raid sense, Paladins gear up the same as Warriors do, minus the Libram and Weapon choice.
And as a note, Protection Paladins are quite a one-man wrecking crew in PvP.
I played a prot pally in pvp and i tore thru rogues. Once i killed 3 rogues at the same time. I was like a pincushion.
Give as a holy paladin guide!
Great video. I hope you go over gear more and leveling BOEs or prep we can do now.
i have a shield and a 1h weap, with no other tanking gear just plate. at level 60 can i reliably make the switch to protection without other tanking gear?
I picked up TBCC a while ago and got me a prot pally going. The first thing i ruled out in the skill tree was "Reckoning", as there are so much better choices in the tree. I'm doing primarily PvE and as I'm the tank, I'll leave the damage dealing to the others. And as you said, I could imagine that the damage output of the talent whimsey. "Precision" and "One Handed Weapon Specialization" offer so much more. And what does an extra swing add, if it misses. 😅
Hey mate. Good playtrough. Is there any situations you should go Blessing of Sanc vs. Blessing of Kings?
For pvp, you can play a holy/prot spec like 34/27/0, go for sacred duty/reckoning, stack spell power or healing/sp and pickup a crafted 2h mace called hammer of righteous might, for when reckoning procs, you would be a healer/dispeller, and you can pump out 4-5k dmg instantly, with very strong SoR swings after that also.
What are the best proffesions combination for a prot paladin that only AoE farm/grind?
JC for the trinket I guess and enchanting for more SP via the ring enchants. That's probably best.
Good vid thnk you
Wouldn't you still want improved might just to have it because of the 8% mana from being healed by others? I agree more mana reduction is really nice but being able to boost dungeons or even 10man raids meele in those cases you may not have another pally?
Stupid question: can i forgo some prot talents for pursuit of justice and improved ret aura? I know ret aura is good on threat so wouldnt that be a good investment?? Also being able to move fast on dungeons seems important.
Not a stupid question at all, tuning will be the important part to deciding properly but it's probably fine to drop ardent defender for more threat points since its not too amazing.
“Pursuit of Justice” - This talent is GREAT, but NOT for the speed enhancements provided. The level of avoidance this provides is quite spectacular and shouldn’t be overlooked. We can enchant our boots with “Boar’s Speed” to increase our stamina by 9, and our movement speed by about 8%. The only thing this enchant doesn’t affect would be our mounted movement speed, but we get Crusader Aura at level 62 and the two don’t stack.
“Improved Retribution Aura” - This talent and spell do help with threat generation, for sure. There’s a couple of questions you have to ask yourself, though, first:
1.) Am I off-tanking raids?
a. If you are off-tanking most of your time in raids, you won’t be taking enough physical damage for this to be worth spending 2 points in
b. You’d theoretically be better off putting points into “Divine Intellect” since your incoming damage will be too low to rely on “Spiritual Attunement”
2.) Am I main-tanking raids?
a. Some tankable bosses in raids are casters and thus Retribution Aura won’t generate any threat since it requires physical attacks
b. Heck, some bosses aren’t even tankable, so your aura is completely worthless on them
3.) Am I focusing on running heroics?
a. Unless you completely out-gear the heroic dungeon in question, you will find yourself getting hit VERY hard and thus will benefit GREATLY from “Ardent Defender”
4.) Am I focusing on running regular dungeons?
a. For the most part, your spec doesn’t matter much in regular dungeons with the exception of maybe Arcatraz, Botanica, and Mechanar
Do you use max tank spells? Do you have mana issues?
How do you stay mana efficient in fights my Pala went oom 3 times just by reading the pve basics oO
Atm Prot paladins are having some pretty big mana issues, to the point where they are dropping Avengers entirely (not even talenting it), but it should be far better at 70 mana wise. Avenger's shield is definitely only in cases of comfy mana + need to push threat/damage; not sure I made that super clear back in this vid!
Nice overview. Regarding the professions - I so hope people are fed up enough with the Meta that they will not chase drums.. I mean, we all know it will happen and people will whisper you left and right telling you to unlearn enchanting and learn letherworking because it's ThEmEtA but ..we can all dream of a better place to be
I agree, I wouldn't be upset if they nerf the hell out of drums. That said though, sometimes the compulsion to do the 'correct' thing is too stronk, at least for me haha.
@@KnotxD now that drums are nerfed, what would be the prot pally bis professions??
I believe that casting a spell makes it so that you cannot block, parry, or dodge so trying to maintain Avenger's Shield on CD may cause you to take larger amounts of damage during encounters.
Yeah 100%, I think I mentioned it somewhere but you're right, you need to be picky with avenger's shield in-combat for both mana and damage intake reasons. Fortunately its quite a short cast, so its not too awful if you are tracking boss swing timers.
I would not avengers shield in combat. It costs so much mana. Consecrate does more threat per mana due to the better scaling, so you want to cast that first if you have extra mana. While TBC does help prot paladin with mana, it isnt anywhere near enough to be casting conc and avengers sheild on cooldown. The only time I use shield is if I lose threat on an untauntanble boss and I need burst threat, that is it. Also, if it is an undead or demon boss, you should use exorcism.
Avengers shield is for pulling.
@@KnotxD I just did the math. Avengers shield costs 780 mana and does (at the top end) 600 damage. Consecrate costs 660 mana and does 512 damage. This means Avenging shield does .773 damage per mana (again, best case, .633 worst case), and consecrate does .776. Already, consecrate does better threat on single target per mana than avengers shield does in its best case (you can call average case shield about .703). The spell power coefficient is based on cast time (for 'single target' spells which avenging shield is considered, it just bounces), and under 1.5 seconds is considered 'instant cast' 43%. Concecrate was buffed to all hell and is at 90%. With 400 spell power (which is reasonable with buffs and gear in early tiers) you would be looking at .994 damage per mana (best case) for shield and 1.321 damage per mana for consecrate.
Why does this matter? A paladin in tanking gear is and buffs is going to have around 6,000 mana. Lets just say you cast shield and consecrate at the same time (the CD is similar) that means you are going to be spending 1440 mana every 8 seconds, meaning after 4 rotations (32 seconds) you are going to have 240 mana which isnt even enough for holy shield. You will then get crushed by the boss and die. Now this does exclude mana regen, but it also excludes actually using any spells during that time.
In short, avengers shield is great for pulling, but that is it. It costs too much mana, and mana management is critical to excel as a prot paladin. Every avengers shield you cast is a consecrate you cant, and as we have looked, consecrate simply does more damage and more threat. You only reason you even use shield on pull is because 1. It is your only ranged spell and 2. you want a threat buffer so your healers dont rip agro off you.
how do i know my chance to miss?
What about Neltharions Tear?
Do non 25 man gear.
Heroics can arena gear be used for tanking heroics as prot pally?
Yeah you can acquire more than enough stats to do well as a prot pally in 5mans cause the spec is so well suited to handling AoE threat. That said though, if you have super geared casters, it could be difficult without raid gear.
@@KnotxD
While it is possible to tank heroics/raids using Arena gear, it is important to note that there is a minimum amount of resilience needed to be defence capped. Without it, you're going to die... a LOT. However, purely stacking resilience from your PvP gear is not ideal, either, since you'll be missing out on precious mitigation stats and will often not be able to maintain crush immunity in that gear.
@@buttonmashers7133 For sure, maybe I misunderstood, I thought he was asking about just all non-raid loot, but you're right, exclusively arena gear would be a little awkward. I was thinking more like pre-raid BiS with an arena weapon and shield perhaps!
@@KnotxD
You are absolutely 100% without a doubt correct for the weapon choice since Gladiator's Gavel from Season 1 Arena is legitimately BiS past Karazhan and will do well until much later.
What u think about TF as Pala in Tbc?
Thunderfury is trash tier for Prot Pala in TBC to be honest. Least it will be cool in Shattrath. If we get the TF nerf on TBC release it will also be very meh even for warriors.
Should i not take engineering LW as prot?? or LW JC?
As Prot Pala, I'd go JC personally, given the nerf to Drums, I think its fair to go for several routes for the other profession.
yea i thought at the end of tbc they change prot pally mechanics to get sp from STR
Kind of, but not really. Paladins had a talent called, “Touched by the Light,” which increased their spell power by 60% (when 3/3) of their total strength. So, in theory, one could argue that strength increased your spell power as long as you had that talent - you don’t organically get spell power from strength in any expansion.
I tried 2 Manning stratholme on my fresh 60 pal and 60 mage (playing both toons). The pal really had a hard time holding agro with my mage doing blizzard. Mage had salvation on as well so I guess my pals 70sp just wasn’t cutting it. I could have held off on blizzard for a bit but my paladin wasn’t going to be able to self heals for very long. I was able to clear the trash but it wasn’t clean at all, the mage ended up having to just solo the trash at 50%
Yeah the level 60 itemisation stinks compared to what kind of gear is available at 70. I wouldnt worry but it is a good example of what early 70 might be like because there is a bit of a juggling act between defensive stats and spell power to maintain threat.
Over time you'll have both though and honestly it's great.
Technically, the "best" race for a Paladin tank would be Human, not Dwarf. Stoneform doesn't equate to a Human's weapon specialization since Expertise DOES help tanks of any class. Stoneform's 10% armor increase is also not enough of a factor since it's only equal to about 1,200 armor on a pre-raid geared tank. The fights that have bleeds that a Paladin encounters are A.) Few and far between and B.) We can Bubble and immediately remove the bubble to maintain our threat level while removing the bleed effect. Expertise isn't necessarily about the threat generation as much as it is about the mitigation; Parry Haste in regards to bosses.
Again, super appreciate the additional information! I hadn't considered parry haste in regards to the Expertise!
Expertise isn't as good for paladins as it is for other tanks, simply because paladins don't have any special attacks.
@@Deya1337
I'm not sure what you mean by that since Expertise is generally sought after for the Parry-Haste component.
@@buttonmashers7133 Simply saying they dont attack as much as other tanks, therefore they dont benefit as much
@@Deya1337
Paladins benefit just the same as any other tank given how fast our weapon speed is, coupled with any haste buffs we may have at the time. Paladins may in fact benefit more than Warriors in this case since they don't have the same level of mitigation Warriors do.
In what circumstance would you ever use seal of blood on a prot paladin? It is based on weapon damage and prot paladins want spellbades as concecrate scales super well in TBC. For tanking you will always use seal of righeous, unless you think the fight will last more than a few minutes. At that point you can, if you want, seal twist vengence with righteousness, using righeousness for autos and then swaping to vengence to refresh the stacks and judge. Blood is just bad on prot.
Early on in the patches, seal of blood was flat optimal for threat. That's why I included it even though it was very unlikely.
@@KnotxD fair enough. I guess most private servers start on 2.43 so I never noticed
I still remember that I used the "Crystalforge Sword" with shield block and spell damage as a good starter sword :)
“Crystalforged Sword” is an amazingly underrated weapon that doesn’t get nearly enough press or praise. Unfortunately, it appears it will be available in Phase 3 rather than Phase 1.
So I normally play paladin in retail, never played in vanilla, boosted one for tbc, and have no idea how to even play paladin tank with all the 47 abilities I have 😩
Lol any luck yet
@@nick213423 haha a little, it’s mostly just drinking mana and keep seals up lol
reckoning is prity usefull if you have "on hit" effects or trinkets...i would not ignore it just to deal 1more dmg on my consecration every tick...
every time you parry you lose 1 durability (or use to be) unless they changed it..and seens prot has spell caster weapons mostly in the start it might be worth avoding it until you get a solid mace with high durability
@@PukkaEditz
Reckoning is NOT a good idea, whatsoever, until you are Hit/Expertise Capped since the boss can dodge or parry your attacks, along with the chance for your attacks to miss.
i wouldn´t recommend Avengers Shield on CD, not because of the Mana Issues, but because of the fact you cant block or parry while casting.
Most bosses have a swing timer of 3 seconds even when you include additional melee casts, sometimes more, sometimes less, you can easily put the 1second AShield cast inside the windows if you're comfortable with the encounters - the only thing you have to be careful of is if you get parried which makes the swing timer shorter ofc; but mana dries up pretty quick so its unlikely to be able to be used literally on CD even if you're keeping track of swings.
So reckoning is actually really good in combination with seal of wisdom. This doesnt really matter in heroics, but on hyjal trash it can be a lifesaver.
"Reckoning" is NOT good unless you have reached cap for Expertise, since if you have a weapon with a speed of less than 2.0, it will provide 8 chances for a boss to parry, rather than the average 4 attacks. Also, when you get better gear, your chance of it procing decreases.
It's really bad. As has been pointed out, Reckoning increases your risk for being parry-gibbed, which is very bad. And using it for seal of wisdom - or any seal for that matter - really just doesn't provide enough benefit. Most of your mana recovery is going to come from spiritual attunement, which in a situation where you are AoE tanking you're going to be getting plenty of heals to trigger that, surpassing any benefit from seal of wisdom.
You guys realize you can parry the boss too right? More swings from the boss means more swings from the paladin :)
@@jerrylacroix7682 Yeah but, again, your swings hit like a wet noodle even considering your Seal. It's a bad time.
@@buttonmashers7133 it is a leveling and grinding talent, not a tank talent.
Reckoning = more seal of righteousness procs = more threat?
For sure, but the points are pretty tight. Perhaps if tuning is even lower than expected, you would take points from things like Spell Warding - but at 2% proc chance per point its quite a steep cost. A variation does move the BoK point into Reckoning and if you're unavoidably over 102.4% mitigation, you might consider moving points from anticipation.
However, if you can move those stats around to just get more spell damage, that's going to be preferable for the big threat from Judging.
@@KnotxD
Before anyone takes Reckoning, they need to realize that it depends exclusively on their weapon and its speed. Anything over 2.0 weapon speed makes Reckoning 100% useless since you won't benefit from the entire effect. The other concern with Reckoning is that it would rely on you actually hitting the mob or boss, which would see to it that you'd be focusing on hitting 9% hit while Paladins should be focusing on other stats to gem for or gear for. THE other thing is that weapons below that 2.0 weapon speed wouldn't see enough of a threat boost from Seal of Righteousness "proccing" due to Reckoning since the damage from SoR is reduced on faster weapons.
You should NEVER remove points from Anticipation since some for some fights, tanks will opt to use certain pieces of gear. (Higher block rating, dodge, hit, etc.) And removing 20 defence skill GREATLY limits your options in terms of switching out gear pieces.
I do find it interesting that you mention that you shouldn't give up Spell Warding, yet you didn't choose to spec into Pursuit of Justice - the one talent that helps your mitigation against spell casters IMMENSLY. (Remove Improved Judgement and 1 point from Ardent Defender and max out Pursuit of Justice for a 3% reduction in your chance to be hit by spells)
Really great addition to this discussion man, thank you so much!
Regarding Spell Warding versus/and also taking Pursuit, I guess its an interesting tension. I'm not much of a gambling man, I think I'd take the 6% guaranteed mitigation on spell damage, but I appreciate the point you're making - there's definitely a choice to consider!
@@gregbrown1311
This is also correct.
@@KnotxD
I apologize, I didn't see this comment until now.
It would all depend on how you look at it. Reducing the chance you'll be hit by spells by 3% would reduce the amount of damage you take, thus prolonging the Ardent Defender proc.
What does “global” mean
Global cooldown = a cooldown that affects ALL abilities
I used to pvp as a prot pally in tbc. I did....ALRIGHT. I mainly just served as a healer/hp sponge/distraction for my cousin's hunter. We did OK. Idr what PVP rating I ended w/ in TBC, because I went from OT to MT in late TBC and all of WOTLK
Your avoidance calculation misses the chance to avoid critical hits (the last value in the tooltip when hovering over the defense value)
You do not really take spell warding and argent defender talents.
Yes 4% less damage taken from spells is good. But you have issues in surviving the physical attacks until you are t6 geared.
Argent defender you do not take, unless you are very geared. Because when you drop below 35% hp the next hit usually kills you either way.
The -30% damage isn't really good if your dead. Unlike druids and warriors you actually struggle to maintain high hp pool until you are insanely geared.
You would be forced to use engineering 45 stamina trinkets for a while. Just to maintain some relevant hp value.
You would be better off with Reckoning coz you do struggle with single target threat.
And 2nd of all you can always use it with Seal of Wisdom. And pump your mana back.
With mana pots / dark runes / healing. You will still run out of mana as a paladin. (ofc depends on the tuning and fight duration)
This isn’t a knock on this video maker directly, just a general opinion of mine of video makers as a whole.
Why do video makers have to blah blah for 60-90 seconds at the beginning of 99.9% of every video they make before actually starting the point of the video?
Also, why do you they have to spend 20 seconds talking about the title of the video and what the video is about when...guess what...we already read the title of the video and know what it is going to be about?
Again, not directing this at this video maker specifically, just a generalization I’ve noticed and I’m finally mentioning it here.
That being said, this video is great once it actually started into the info itself. 👍
I try to avoid discussing much other than the point of the video. My intro exists so people can click off before they go ahead basically, in my mind it's a courtesy but I can see why its frustrating. One thing you won't find is me discussing ad nauseam the subscribe, like etc stuff. As naive as it may be, I hope the video encourages that by itself.
Glad to hear you still enjoyed the video though!
13:51 read it closly styleen,s impEding scarab not impending scarab
no points in Improved Seal of Righteousness? in classic, it doesn't improve the spellpower scaling, but even 15% of the base damage should be great for threat, and they might have improved it in tbc)
additionnal information on SoR : in classic, the scaling of Seal of Righteousness is static, making fast weapons really good once you have spellpower (that's why some spellpower ret are using manual crowd pummeler in classic), if it's the same in tbc, fast caster weapons will become bis for prot pallies
not a lot of your kit is affected by spellhit. I would probably rank regular hit higher in single target. Consecration isn't affected by any hit, as it's a dot on the ground (hence why it takes a debuff slot in classic, and isn't affected by the aoe-target-number nerf that everyone else got in tbc. I would suggest try to get melee hitcap and focus primarly on raw sp for threat
Seal of blood scale with weapon dmg, and not with sp, it makes it pretty poor to use as tank.
1.) “Improved Seal of Righteous” is the same in TBC as it was in Classic/Vanilla - in other words, it wasn’t improved
2.) For someone to obtain the 15% increase, they would have to sacrifice 10 talent points which are better spent on mitigation and survivability talents - which talents would you give up?
3.) Similar to Classic/Vanilla, Protection Paladins rely on spell damage weapons of any speed (most of which are faster since they’re not immediately intended for melee damage) - This isn’t exclusive to Burning Crusade
4.) Hit Rating is a catch-22; we want as much as possible while maintaining our defensive stats mainly for our Righteous Defence ability which relies on melee and not spell hit rating, but the less we miss the more chance of us being parried-hasted
5.) As a Protection Paladin, neither hit ratings should be any bit of concern for you. Focusing on either provides the Paladin a lack of defensive stats which we are in dire need of from the get-go to maintain crush and crit immunity
Where are you going to get the points for improved seal of righteous? Prot paladins have 58 absolutely essential talents, and 3 talents to spend on what they want. Unfortuently, improfed SoR is tier 2 holy so you wont even get past the intelect talent with those 3 points. So where to cut points?
You could cut the 2 improved judgement points from ret. This still doesnt give you enough to get SoR but, lets do that. That now gives us enough talents to get SoR if we can find five more talent points for it. You arnt taking points out of deflection, that just isnt happening. You need 41 points in protection (to get avengers shield) but that means that you need to skip combat expertise which is 10% BONUS STAMINA!!!!!!!!!
It would be nice to have improved SoR, but it isnt going to happen.
@@blackfalcon1324
While I do agree that “Improved Seal of Righteousness” shouldn’t be on a Protection Paladin’s radar, your argument loses validity when you don’t actually explain the 58 “absolutely essential” talents. I imagine that you are including “Improved Judgement” since it’s mentioned in your comment, and that is far from being “absolutely essential.” I also imagine you are including “Ardent Defender” which does greatly benefit a Paladin, but it depends on your role and the content that you are doing and when you are doing it, so it wouldn’t be classified as “absolutely essential,” either.
I’m not sure why you would jump to skipping “Combat Expertise” instead of thinking that people may skip “Ardent Defender.” Would I recommend sacrificing damage mitigation for a bit of extra damage on a seal that we won’t likely be using that extensively? No. But I AM saying it is more than possible to do so without sacrificing the +10% stamina boost from “Combat Expertise.”
@@swiftjuice168 My argument doesnt lose any validity. There are several guides out there that say 'these are the 58 essential talents for prot paladins and these are the places you can put the remaining 3.' I can link you some of those guides but no, I am not going to go into an in-depth analysis on every protection paladin talent in a youtube comment section. There are 15 minute videos and long guides online that do that. I figured that simply saying 'there are 58 talents that are deemed essential by about everyone who knows what they are talking about' is enough, but if you want me to link you some guides let me know.
@@swiftjuice168 also id say that if you do find the points to cut (which you will in tier 6) just go sanctity aura
Human paladin as an alt means less rep farming as well
"Dreaenei racial is not gonna be useful, if you have other draenei palas, warriors or hunters in your grp" xD I was literally rolling on the floor laughing at the suggestion ppl are gonna play any of these classes on Draenei xD Draeneis will be shamans, because... you HAVE TO. That's it xD I am seriously considering playing my prot pala as Draenei, because I'm reasonably certain there wont be any other in my raid providing that aura...
You could, but that aura is going to be useless. It is party based and you will (should) be in the caster group for the spellpower totem and the shadow priest. You could put a prot paly in the melee group but you would be hard gimping yourself and as a tank you need to worry about yourself before everyone else. If you go oom or cant hold threat then it just doesnt matter.
@@blackfalcon1324 very fair point. Didn’t think about that.
@@blackfalcon1324 to be fair though, I never ran into mana problems in raids, as i usually require a lot of heal. Also as a pala you’re usually not tanking the focus target, which means you have time to build Aggro. Caster grp is surely beneficial, but I fail to see the need for it.
@@kingdingeling7992 I guess that depends on whether or not you are wanting to main tank or just be stuck being a trash tank for the whole expansion. Also if you are not maintain king the boss and taking damage, then you’re not going to get the effect of your spiritual attunement so you would have mana problems if you don’t have the bonus matter from the shadow priest. Ultimately, every read comp that I’ve seen from people who made protection paladin, puts it in the cast a group
dam, that 'melee" charity, you forgettin about hunters lol. To be fair you still don't really need imp might since it should probably be your holy pal in your 25 comp thats runnin imp might.
Haha true! In the context of try hard 5mans, it's probably 2 locks and a mage - at least that was the point I was attempting to make lol.
DONT cast avenging shield during the fight. you lose all avoidence while casting. you never whant to see the castbar while a mob hit you
I was doing some testing on this recently after someone complained in a group. To the best of my understanding that isn't the case. Holy Sheild procs still, the damage from a spike on a shield still does damage, in terms of size of hits and amount of dodge/blocks I saw no difference. Maybe in high level raids it makes a difference compared to regular same level mobs, but I don't think this works like you described here in classic TBC.
Is shield specialization worth it? It increases the amount blocked by 30% but does anyone care about the amount blocked? I only care about the avoidance of redoubt. Sheild specialization seems like a waste to me.
3 points out of Shield Specialization looks really good in Pursuit of Justice. In my opinion. "Button Masher" mentioned Pursuit of Justice over spell warding in another comment. Why not both?
@@zacharyfreiberg8849
Shield Specialization sees to it that you block more damage. A 30% increase is quite significant, especially when Paladins are already behind Warriors in terms of mitigation from the onset.
Pursuit of Justice should be used in conjunction with Spell Warding as they go hand-in-hand. I'm not sure what message you're referring to where I say to choose one over the other.
Realistically speaking, a fine talent build would be: Legacy-WoW.com/tbc-talents/paladin-talents/?tal=0000000000000000000005305133500021025214510500500030000000000000
@@buttonmashers7133 I must have misread. Thanks for sharing your build.
@@zacharyfreiberg8849
You're welcome.
@@zacharyfreiberg8849
And just as a reference, Redoubt increases your chance to block, but without block value (added to by Shield Specialization) Redoubt won't benefit you as much as it can.
"Threat control is top notch"
Have to disagree with this one. A *huge* amount of paladin threat in TBC is reactive, coming from effects that trigger when you successfully block. Holy Shield, shield spikes, retribution aura (which is significant since, like the others, it's buffed by righteous fury), blessing of sanctuary, not to mention many of the best trinkets available all contribute to your reactive threat, and far outpace the threat gains from consecration/judgement on a single target (obviously consecration is a fantastic tool for AoE, and obviously things like Avenger's Shield are very high threat but not something you'll actively cast in combat).
In practice this meant two things: First, it was harder for other tanks to actively pull threat from a paladin tank on fights like Gurtogg Bloodboil, where you only had a divine shield window to pull ahead on threat from a paladin who could command an impressive threat lead if they began the fight with aggro. Second, it made it hard for a paladin to pull threat from another tank for the same reason, as so much of their threat only happens when they are being hit or actively blocking.
I would list threat control as one of the cons for TBC prot paladin. Which isn't to say that you shouldn't play a prot pally, as they're still monsters in the right scenario.
I think that's a fair stance to have, there's definitely far less threat available without holy shield as you mention.
Though to try elaborate on why I'm still of this opinion -
In those awkward fights that require threat shifts without taunts, you would typically gear for threat as any tank would. Gurtogg, dependent on tuning, is the one encounter where this could be a sticking point and he isn't UD/Demon for the phat exorcisms.
But you have avenging wrath, free use of avengers shield as you're not active tank whilst still chasing, and of course can double down with on use trinkets if really necessary. Feral druids and prot warriors especially don't really have the same kind of luxuries in that area.
I guess my position is - maybe I made it sound too easy but I still think paladins have the best time chasing other tanks than the other way around (which you also alluded too with holy shield) - which has merits for those kinds of encounters.
That said, unless your DPS are absolutely zero chill, worst case scenario you can remove Righteous Fury to allow the off tank to take over on these types of encounter.
But I respect your opinion, if the tuning is done well, those encounters could be challenging in respect to threat management and its still not super simple for any tank including prot paladin.
@@KnotxD For sure. Don't get me wrong, it's still doable. I was a prot pally main in TBC and I did Gurtogg once or twice, but the amount of difficulty in arranging it so that I either could drop threat enough for the switch of if I had aggro, or build threat enough for the swap if I didn't, made it so that for the most part I did not tank on Gurtogg. It's just not an ideal fight for paladins, but that's the great thing about TBC, there are encounters for each tank to shine (even warlocks! lol)
@@celotharobar
So, I thought I would weigh in on this conversation as it sounds interesting.
1.) Retribution Aura doesn't require any Paladin to block in order to be used - it just requires damage to befall the Paladin.
2.) Any Holy damage you deal has increased threat by Righteous Fury - not exclusively Retribution Aura.
3.) I, personally, found two examples of trinkets that add to your reactive threat:
a.) Figurine of the Colussus - This DOES require blocks to work
b.) Darkmoon Card: Vengeance - This does NOT require blocks to work and only needs damage taken
4.) As you pointed out, Consecration is an outstanding threat ability for AoE pulls, however, there's a few things to keep in mind:
a.) Consecration is a DoT - this allows us to generate TPS, while being able to use other spells/abilities simultaneously, effectively boosting our TPS even more.
b.) Paladins are the easiest tanks to increase threat generation since it improves with every point of spell damage we have. Pair the average Paladin tank with 200 extra SD with a Flask of Supreme Power and you have 350 right off the bat. That's Pre- raid. If we use higher-rank tier sets, we'd have even MORE.
@@celotharobar
5.) Tanking wasn't, isn't, and never will be about surpassing each other's threat and fighting over aggro. If the boss is constantly bouncing between tanks, that will lead to either or both of them dying since the healers' attention is constantly changing. Warriors/Druids have a minimum of two taunt abilities that they can utilize to taunt off the Paladin. Paladins were capable of taunting and maintaining threat even on bosses that aren't Undead or Demon. (Which equals about 60% of raid bosses)
6.) If a tank of any class has problems maintaining threat, it's as simple as taunting to match the tank's threat, and then having them taunt back (Rinse and repeat if necessary) to ensure the tanks have the top threat spots.
@@celotharobar
Also, also...
If we look at Paladin's spells/abilities, we'll notice that only one of these requires the Paladin to block an attack to produce threat. Which is equal to approximately 17% of our abilities - far less than a "huge amount."
1.) Consecration
2.) Judgement
3.) Seal of Vengeance
4.) Retribution Aura
5.) Exorcism
6.) Holy Shield
You don't cast exorcism and avenger shield on CD. These are only used during the pull. Casting makes you unable to block or parry and you don't want that for obvious reasons.
This 'danger' is referenced. When you're not under duress, this is the highest single target TPS as far as I am aware. Also, Exorcism is instant (tbc-twinhead.twinstar.cz/?spell=10314 ). It is only avenger's shield you need to be picky with in regards to damage intake.
@@KnotxD
I imagine Renaud wasn't looking at the correct tooltip for Exorcism as it did have a cast-time in Lich King (Patch 3.2.0) as it was allowed to be used on any type of mob starting in Patch 3.1.0
@@VorpalSliver Yeah I've heard from multiple sources taht eventually you'll want to drop the point in avenger's shield and put into sanc aura since most of the time you wont have a ret pally in your group. Plus spamming avenger's shield might be alot of threat but the mana costs in doing so just straight up doesn't seem worth it. You might be getting more threat per second but you'll end up running out of mana super quick and have less threat gained in total throughout the fight.
What's wrong with prot pvp...
Low success rate for the player, and pure tediousness for the opponent haha!
You forgot GBoK spam that will ensure that paladins have the highest single target threat in every tier, allowing them to build completely defensive tanking set and completely negate the huge downside of cluncky early game gearing.
Greater Blessing of Kings - the mana cost has increased to about 12% of your base mana (Average tank's mana going into Karazhan would be around 5,000; GBoK would cost 600 mana per cast)
GBoK would also be less effective than in Classic since we won't have 39 other players in the raid which drastically reduces the amount of players per class to buff.
Theoretically speaking, since the threat was based around 60 x 1.90 (60 Base Threat and Righteous Defence) multiplied by the number of players buffed - if we assume we have 6 of the same class, that'd be 684 threat for 600 mana while Consecration alone costs 660 mana and far surpasses that threat.
@@swiftjuice168 You're right it's not as good, but base mana is just under 4k for paladins so the best spell will be Wisdom which is 310 mana for 65 threat per target (since it's lvl 65 spell) so 65x1.9x5=617 threat for 310 mana which is not great but not terrible either, I doubt we will see any class stacked above 5. Good to use in your rotation when you have excess mana, but not spamworthy unless on something like Brutallus
@@grubi450
1.) Protection Paladins often have a minimum of 5,000 mana - often times exceeding this amount unbuffed. I welcome you to view some videos of Paladins tanking Karazhan here on RUclips.
2.) The threat generation from Greater Blessings was a bug that Blizzard never fixed in original Vanilla so there is always a chance they may rectify this with the release of Burning Crusade this time around.
3.) Can this provide decent threat? It definitely has the potential. Should Paladins rely on this method? Absolutely not.
a.) This means that the Protection Paladin would be the one giving a certain class Wisdom with no added benefit from the Holy tree - "Improved Blessing of Wisdom" so they'd be missing out on about 9 MP5.
b.) Going with this, the question would be whether or not the MP5 bonus would be reset every time you'd cast it on them. (It shouldn't, but then again, Blessings were never intended to provide additional threat with Righteous Fury, either.)
I can see the desire for this but as of right now, we don't know whether Blizzard will in fact change this to what they originally intended or not.
@@swiftjuice168 classic.wowhead.com/news=295877/oct-28th-update-to-not-a-bug-list-thrash-mechanic-righteous-fury-sharpening-ston
It was never a bug and mana cost is based on your base mana, not current mana, it always costs the same. I used wisdom as an example since it's the cheapest caster blessing that's gonna be used on your shamans, If you stack hunters you could go for improved Might which is cheaper at 295 mana. One thing is for sure, paladins are going to overtake warriors once we get geared and start farming content (Improved Wisdom won't matter when bosses die under 2 minutes), and especially in speedrunning where you'll stack classes.
@@grubi450
Righteous Fury affecting Holy SPELLS was in fact a bug in Vanilla as the initial intention was to affect Holy ATTACKS only. us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/righteous-fury-mechanics-op-paladin-threat-1k-tps/318279
You linked an article based on Classic WoW, not Vanilla.
2:10 YoUr ThReAt CoMeS FrOm SpElLs meanwhile most of your threat comes from yours seals off of your auto attacks durrrrrrr
Thanks for the reminder, but I'm sure you'll know also that the comment still holds. It's more impactful to buff the seal damage.
@@KnotxD the proper threat spec is 0/41/20 you want to put only 2/5 in toughness 0/2 spell warding and 2/5 reckoning 0/5 ardent defender and put the extra points into improved seal of the crusader 3/3 pursuit of justice 15% movement speed at all times as a tank is mandatory and then you can put 2/2 improved retribution aura and 2/2 improved judgements or you can use those 4 points in ardent defender if your in blues or have bad heallers
i wouldnt suggest the heavy threat build unless your in a hardcore guild where threat is a major issue you know people who had duel wield tanks all through classic
@@beanodonnell
Your spec choice is completely stupid.
@@swiftjuice168 you probably never played in a hardcore guild where DPS is threat capped and heallers are parsing so hard some defensive talents are being wasted
imagine not taking reckoning as a prot pally. What a boring life! Also seal of vengeance and seal of righteousness are spell damage and more attacks means more threat! But really its just fun. . .
Haha I hear you, I don't theres anything wrong with going reckoning but seems most people spec without it!
@@KnotxD + michah larimer
Seal of Vengeance is a DoT that is not affected by your melee attacks outside of refreshing its duration. So, the threat stays the same regardless of how many times you hit the target with SoV.
Reckoning is a dangerous talent if you're not Expertise capped - the Hard Cap, not soft - which is nearly impossible to achieve. If you have a fast enough weapon to benefit from all 4 strikes, that would equal 8 melee attacks - literally an increase of 100% more attacks the boss has a chance to parry. In other words, you can be digging your own grave with this talent.
@@buttonmashers7133 Damn, thats a really good point, I hadn't thought of that or seen it in discussion. Parry haste could indeed be monstrous with so many swings not capped. Makes me understand more why the variant I found that sneaks a single point in, only goes for the single point.
@@buttonmashers7133 I was about to say more reckoning procs means more seal procs which means more threat but you make a great point. You cant proc if you're getting dodged and parried every swing. on top of SoV only being needed to be refreshed this makes alot of sense. I could see it being useful if you use righteousness instead of vengeance but at the same time might just be more worth to spec into other talents
I main'd a prot paladin on a few tbc private servers with great succes pretty much perfecting it imo.. you got a few things wrong mate... like the spec you choose to showcase is horrible (i know most paladins play something similar) but they are also horrible... anyways if u want some tips hit me up otherwise just act llike you never saw this lol
Hit us with the information then, im interested
I agree, can you share the information? Spread the wealth sir.