400 VS 600 VS 800 GRAIN ARROW (surprising)
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- Опубликовано: 12 сен 2024
- 400 VS 600 VS 800 GRAIN ARROW (surprising).. Tim Connor compares different arrow weights alongside @podiumarcher3447 to figure out just how well 400 grain arrows vs 600 grain arrows vs 800 grain arrows. This is a fun archery video showing how different arrows compare down range as well as an impact test. If you're into archery or bowhunting this is a good video for you. #archery
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Friends! This test surprised me 😬 thoughts for future vid ideas?
You should test a 300 and 350 or 375 grain arrow now and see. No body ever test the really light stuff. Great content
I want to see you compare the Garmin Xero A1i Pro vs the ultraview slider…
How ultraview think they are worth half the price of the greatest and most versatile site ever made, blows my mind.
Cheers ✌️
Q and a podcast answering viewer questions
It suprised me because the math side of your brain knows it's wrong. So... ruclips.net/video/iUwg7YVPVks/видео.htmlsi=6zy4XnvT1TFNtflz Timing is perfect. Looks like you need to move the jugs out past 36 yrds. Your test is flawed. Otherwise I should tune down the projectile weight on my 6.5 creedmore to a flatter 120gr. Ballistics is ballistics doesn't change if it is a rifle or a bow. Just the speed and distance change.
Do the same tests but with the 400gr arrow at different draw weights, lengths, etc.
The way that acceleration works, as far as drop goes, is that it's an exponential growth model. That arrow is stopping at 9.8 meters per second, persecond. 1 second of arrow flight is 9.8meters of drop. 2 seconds is 19.6, 3 seconds is 29.4 meters. The longer the arrow takes to get somewhere the faster it drops. The same is true with velocity.
Arrow is dropping* (not stopping) 🫡
Turns out speed does matter and you should care more about that than the chasing weight of the arrow especially if you wanna be accurate down range
@@crossroads5885 Not quite. Speed does matter but you have to find a balance with speed and weight. If you go to far one way or the other your setup isn't as good as it could be. The 500-600gr seems to be where most people land and you can do that and still get a good FOC. You don't need an 800gr arrow.
It would be interesting to see a penetration test from slightly further away. Also how wind would effect a lighter arrow vs the meat missile over different distances
Rite on, hca did this over 20 yrs ago where the first to coin the phrase speed kills I belive . Nice test! Run it again at 50 w field tips and then with same broadheads close like u did here and again at 50 see what you get. Great work .
Exactly. Just like in rifle bullets.. SD retains momentum at range.. not at 2 yards.. let the arrows straighten out and retain energy down range.
This stuff has been proven to many times to ignore with confirmation bias and bad science.
Always appreciate the different testing videos, never gets old seeing arrow flights, so thank you.
I tried a test last year that I think would be great if done by you with the same concept here. Take 400g, 500g, and 600g setups and get sight tapes for each out to 80yds dialed in. Set up at 40yds and shoot your 20,30,50,60,70, & 80yd marks (if you have a big enough target to accommodate like MFJJ's). You can then measure the drop at each mark for that setup and do so with the other arrow setups, and compare.
This will give you a truer difference in drop that you could directly apply to the pin gaps. Example, if the 400g arrow drops 10" between 50 & 60yds, and the 500g arrow drops 14", you are getting 1" and 1.4" of drop per yard. So with each setup, if you were off 5 yards on an animal, the 400g arrow would miss 5" and the 500g would miss 7" (you could then assume with your same setup that a 450g arrow would be in the middle and miss 6"). This was a great test for me to help determine my current hunting setup and even though it was more extensive, it was fun to do the test on my own setup.
This is physics… the arrows are all equally efficient projectiles so that variable is eliminated. The bow is what determines the force (newtons) applied and is the same across all three arrows so penetration will be the same. Weight will cause the projectile to be thrown faster or slower… but the force applied is equal therefore the kinetic energy for each arrow is the same.
It is physics and your findings are off a bit. Don't look at them as arrows but as bullets. A light bullet in the same diameter won't penetrate as deep as a heavier bullet. Using the same powder charge the speeds will drop just like with an arrow from a bow. A varmint bullet into an elk isn't a good idea right? I wouldn't shoot a deer or an antelope with a varmint bullet and I wouldn't shoot a light fast arrow into one either.
I’d like to see you guys try the same kind of penetration test with different FOC arrows 7-8% up to around 20% see if there is a difference
I know higher foc has alot of advantages, but, As long as the arrow is tuned and hits perfectly square, I have no idea how different FOC would would change penetration?
@@lukeonderko8696that's because you don't understand how arrows penetrate. 😂
And at 30 or 40 yards instead of 2 yards.
Take a look at our penetration test with 4, 5 and 600 grain arrows with low FOC at 20, 40, 60 and 80 yards. We have another video coming up where we test the same weight but different FOC's
Just built 406 grain arrows because of what you two have been talking about on the pod cast and these videos! Super pumped to use them in the field!
Sorry about your confirmation bias. 😢 🤣
Kinetic Energy (KE) is the energy of motion. KE = 0.5 x Mass x Velocity x Velocity. For the arrows leaving Tim's bow the following is true:
Mass (grains) Velocity (fps) Kinetic Energy (leaving bow) % Different from Lowest
400 310 19,220,000 0%
600 256 19,660,800 2.3%
800 224 20,070,400 4.4%
The reason they all penetrated the water jugs the exact same is because they have very little difference in energy on a percentage basis. Leaving the bow, the 800 grain arrow has only 4.4% more energy than the 400 grain arrow. In order to know retained energy from each arrow at say 40 yards, we'd need to know the velocity at that distance (come on Tim, that is your next video!). There is no way to know retained energy downrange if we don't have precise velocity measurements. Retained energy is one variable that goes into penetration, there are many others too.
As you can see in the KE equation the velocity component is squared, meaning velocity typically has much more effect on KE than mass. However, in this test Tim did, the mass doubled between the lightest arrow and the heaviest one, so in this case mass was a significant factor in the calculation.
Tim/MFJJ! Make a video showing the velocities downrange (you pick the range)! Who has the ball sack to shoot through that chronograph at 40, 50, or 60 yards! Ahah!
Ranch dairy did this!!! With a rocket scientist and radar.
Why did you not finish the equation? you used imperial weight and velocity so to calculate KE using imperial, the equation is KE=.5 x mass X velocuty^2/225218 this gives you ft-lbs the equation you gave is in metric so the answer would have been in juoles.
Units are all relative (as long as used consistently) and have no significance on the goal of my calculations to find out the difference in KE between arrows on a percentage basis. The KE equation has no units as an equation, the equation I used is not metric. The units used were grains for mass and feet per second for velocity - none of them being metric. Thanks. @@ericnewman971
Now do the math for the momentum values...
That will be far more telling than KE
@@Bartimusblue27 Right! P=MV. Yeah, I would do them but I don't think Tim Connor or MFJJ care, they never engaged with this approach.
Even though the heavy arrow dropped drastically more the momentum maintains better down range. A lighter arrow is greater affected by drag thus slowing down the momentum greater than the 800 grain arrow. At the end of the day, shoot what you're comfortable with. I personally shoot around 600 grains with 300 grains being in the front with 21% foc and I'm happy with that.
Nice test! Can you do one with broadheads? I would use: shorter angle single bevel like ironwill, a steep angle single bevel like the grizzlystik ashby 350 is samurai, add a two blade option, mechanical options, three blade options, throw in some versions that are purchased the most at Josh shop. That would be a cool test to see. Thanks!
The increased drop on the 800 vs. the 600 is that gravity has a constant acceleration, not velocity. 32 ft/sec^2. More time to target at the same distance creates an exponential impact from gravity making it fall faster at the end of the flight.
If you dont shoot over 20-30 yards it doesn't matter. It only matters the farther the shot. The key is to find balance speed, kinetic energy, foc. And the most important is practice.
This is a fallacy. I put this together not long ago as an example of my setup if I were to go to a 650 grain arrow. Some online characters minimize it - but this is actual data calibrated from Archers Advantage and my chrono. If I were to shoot a 650 grain arrow at 30 yds and it actually is 35 yds I would hit 1.5" low. Over an entire big cut broadhead low/high!!
If whitetail vitals are say 10" (which less on smaller bodied & shrinks quartering shots) you have given up 15% precision to your intended shot location just in range error alone. Compound that with any other errors in your shot and it's easily much more than that. Let's say you're average broadhead group size in the backyard at 30 yds is 3". Pretty decent and probably above average based on what I see. Now what is your broadhead group size in hunting conditions? Let's be generous and say it opens up only .5" to a 3.5" group at 30yd from a tree stand. That means that off the top you actually have a window of 6.5" you've got to get that arrow in (10"-3.5" = 6.5"). So you're actual precision you've reduced your odds of hitting vitals in elevation a whopping 23% from the 294 fps setup. This doesn't even touch the subject of giving the animal more time to react.
The question people need to be asking themselves is: Am I concerned about penetration so much that I'm willing to give up as much as 23% of vertical precision?
Be honest with yourself.. How well can you range? If you're hunting fixed ranges at feeders this effect is minimal. If you're a whitetail hunter who is pre-ranging when you get in a tree because those deer pop out quick and don't give the opportunity, then this is applicable to you. If you're doing the same when that bull is coming in and you have to draw before he pops into that opening you pre-ranged then this matters to you. Make your decisions wisely & consider picking your broadhead based on your penetration needs but not your arrow weight.
@@chrismuhlbeier6948 blaaaa blaaaa blaaaaa... That's why I said the most important thing is practice. 🤯
@@chrismuhlbeier6948preach
Would definitely like to see a 600gr and 800gr arrow tested that have higher FOC vs total arrow weight. Might see some changes in arrow efficiency and penetration.
Bet not much
Wrong - no difference at all. High FOC is a crock of shit...
@@eclipsearchery9387 I'm beginning to think that as well...
You are shooting through water at a relatively close distance, of course penetration will be the same. Water just isn't a good scientific benchmark for judging penetration and your ke for the three arrows are basically the same. If you want to test a hunting arrow's penetration for the idea of hunting, you should be shooting through a carcass with your broadhead of choice and do it at a couple of different distances. Shooting at concrete blocks, water jugs, ballistic gelatin, or plywood only shows you what an arrow does to those mediums at the distance you are shooting at. Making the assumption that the same results will correlate to penetration on an animal out at yardage is incorrect.
Next step, penetration test at 40 yds and 60 yds to show how that lack of velocity translates to far less penetration at distance.
Might be other way around. Both start out with the energy of the bow, but a faster lighter arrow will loose more energy over distance due to aerodynamic drag being a function of the square of the velocity (and given same geometry a heavier arrow would loose less energy per distance even at the same speed). I really want to see this penetration test at 50 yards, but it might be a minimal effect anyhow?
Take a look at our penetration test video. We did 20, 40, 60 and 80 yards. You might be interested in the results that we found!
Great test guys. I’m guessing the biggest contributor to the various arrow weights having a similar penetration will be that the resistance/friction between the plastic bottles and the arrow shaft remains the same for all arrows.
Some interesting variations on the water bottle test would be;
1/ Taking a chrono speed after the various arrows have passed through 1-2 bottles of water, although I think the speed ratios will be very close to the original chrono test due to the same amount of resistance being exerted on the same diameter shafts.
2/ Same weight arrows but with a variation in shaft diameter. This would vary the surface area and therefore the amount of shaft resistance/friction against the water bottles.
3/ I think a big contributor to a variation in penetration in a test like yours will be from different surface textures of the arrow shaft materials, silky smooth aluminum or carbon, through to something like an old school/cheap woven fiberglass shaft
4/ Another variable to keep in mind with the water bottle test/penetration, is if the fletchings are actually passing through the cuts made by the broadhead, or are the fletchings having to make their own way through the plastic bottles.
Great work guys. Always interesting to watch.
Cheers Peter👍👍
Part 2; same arrows shot at 20 and 40 yards. See if the momentum and KE actually make a difference over time/distance.
This right here... the 400gr. arrow will win. Already seen thus test performed twice. 400 grain arrow won each time in ballistic gel.
Which arrow is going faster at 40 yards? The lighter arrow. Despite it perhaps losing energy more quickly, it is still traveling faster at the point of impact. That means the results would be the same. It would just be like shooting the same arrows out of a lighter poundage bow at the same distance.
@@sd91499you are confused 🤣
The lighter arrows doesn't win. And of course its velocity will be higher...
Heavier arrow will lose less of it's initial velocity. Retaining more momentum.
You lads should consider doing a test on different FOC arrows ie 8 % vs 10 % vs 14 etc
Would love yo see this as well, but keep the arrow weight the same just change foc
A better comparative test for trajectory is to sight in all 3 arrow weights, then put your sight at your average or relevant distance, say 40yrds, then step back to +/-5yrds away from that distance (35 and 45yrds) and shoot those different arrows. And then compare how much, in relative terms of shot placement with respect to the target center, you are penalized by a particular arrow weight, per equal yardage missjudgment. Because you will pay on the target for the lightest arrow as well, so to asess a heavier one, compare how much you pay more, per equal yardage misjudgment.
Ok so here’s the way I see it so different weights at that close range isn’t going to change much between the arrows your bow puts the same energy into the arrows your kinetic output will be basically the same as it leaves the bow. I haven’t done the math yet but basically if you put a higher weight arrow In yes the velocity will slow down but the k.e will stay the same at the point of release . A better test would be at distance when the different weights on the arrows would bleed off speed and change the energy output of the arrow I bet you will find on that different weights would penetrate better or worse at certain distances. example a lighter arrow will penetrate better at way longer distance that say a heavier arrow would not even reach. each different weight would have a sweet spot the test is to find it and use the best at the distance you tend to hunt in.
a certain fisherman in texas will say that you tested this all wrong that he and his friend the aerospace engineer are the only ones that can make this kind of test correctly. While I am not convinced shooting field points into milk jugs is the definitive test it raises some questions about the difference in kinetic energy and momentum, for instance 792.7 grain at 224 fps, is 78.7 slugs and 88.2 joules while the 599.7 grain at 256 fps is 68.1 slugs and 87.1 joules and the 400.6 gain at 310 fps is 55.0 slugs and 85.3 joules. This test would indicate that the difference in 78.7 slugs and 55.0 slugs is less of a difference than the difference in 88.2 joules and 85.3 joules. while I am not one of those guys who thinks that shooting the heaviest arrow that you can build is the way to go, I did thing that shooting an arrow with a weight that gives the best performance while still considering the amount of kinetic energy and momentum I can manage while still maintain the desired performance. Good food for thought.
I always shoot 450 gr for everything. Change my mind!
Step back to a hunting distance and try the penetration test again
It all depends on what you shoot for broadheads and where you hit on the animal. Water isnt exactly the best way to judge penetration.
What’s a better controlled test?
Comparable penetration over a constant medium no matter what it is wouldn’t matter. The test was comparable.
@@TimConnor13mfjj has long legs, you could easily fit half a dozen in one leg 🤣🤣🤪🤪
the only real test that matters is what do these arrows do when used on hide, meat, and bone. Therefore, the best way to accurately test the arrows is to get some scapula, deer/elk hides, and some meat(boneless cuts of cheap meat). Then test these arrows with a fixed blade broadhead at a distance somewhere around 20-30yds since the drop is so bad on the 800gr arrow. In order to put an arrow through the vitals of an animal means that you have to get through the hide, meat, and most likely bone(i.e. ribs and/or a scapula). Killing animals is the only reason this topic matters, so why not use animal parts as a true test medium.
Theory on heavier arrows is that at a distance, their momentum number would be higher than a lighter arrow at launch. Testing with any material like water, gel at point blank will not show the difference. Test at 30-40y, I believe at that point you will see a penetration difference
I wonder what the Ranch Fairy would have to say about this?
The guy is a snake oil salesman. He'd completely ignore any benefits of trajectory, talk crap about the findings, use his annoying laugh to distract people & use some limited science that agrees with his conclusion while ignoring any other science that contradicts him.
@chrismuhlbeier6948 what a perfect summary
@@chrismuhlbeier6948 yet he doesn't have to worry about hitting a deer scapula and the arrow getting two inches of penetration 🤔
He would say it’s an inaccurate test that was worked in reverse. They had their result before they ever started so their test was designed to prove their result rather than be an actual legitimate test. Anyone that’s ever hunted knows that penetration test was a joke. A quick RUclips search will show various amounts of penetration on game animals and this test supposedly tells you everything penetrates the same.
@@chrismuhlbeier6948 please elaborate on exactly where he’s wrong? You may decide going with a heavier arrow isn’t for you but he’s factually and scientifically correct and there is no arguing that. The debate comes in about what trade offs one should take in their setup because every setup has some.
Aha awesome stuff guys, shot my elk yesterday with a 420 grain arrow, 40 yard shot full pass through not sure why u would need heavier lol
Yeah I get a lot of these reports! Nice job dude
@@TimConnor13yes at distance with a bricklayer wall of water jugs to account for the arc. Not enough speed loss right out of the bow maybe to make a difference. Fun shooting.
What broadhead Vance? I shoot 420 grain and live in North Carolina and hunt Ohio! I’m a mechanical guy and trying to figure out broadhead for elk hunt in sept.
Do it again at distance to test retained energy.
It’s impractical at distance because the heavy arrow would be dropping so aggressively it would arc into the table
@@TimConnor13 You might be able to put the table on a slant by putting the front legs up on blocks.
Okay here’s a thought. Put a 2 inch expandable on that 400 grain arrow and put a good single bevel on the 600 grain and run it back
I am shooting a 440 grain arrow. 78 pounds and 27.5 inch draw length. it clocked in at about 295 fps. Broadhead flight was perfect. My pins are so tight at 40 yards if I am off by 7 yards I am still in the kill zone. forgiveness is accurate
That's a GREAT way to say it! FORGIVENESS IS ACCURATE!!!
I’m they same draw, what bow gets you that speed?
@@Angel.Custodio mathews vertix
I am in the same camp. V3X @70# shooting 460 grain arrow 298 fps. Why people make it harder than it needs to be is beyond me. Tight pins flat flying arrows eliminate minor distance errors.
Mathews halon6 31.5" draw 70lbs shooting 460gr at 302fps out of a 8 year old bow
god, I love having long draw length.
Very interesting. My arrows are at 444. I think the faster lighter arrow makes more sense in a hunting application. Smaller gap between pins means if your off by a couple yards the shot will be closer to the intended point of impact. If your arrow is dropping like a rock it could mean missing the animal all together or a wounded animal rather than meat in the freezer.
Yeah flatter trajectory is forgiveness
It depends on what you’re hunting
I went middle ground just over 500gr but high foc. The KE carries further with a heavier arrow and with higher FOC it is more stable and blows through bone better. I am totally done with mechanical heads after several that turned into field tips hitting ribs or the scapula.
Cool test. Would be interesting to see extreme high foc vs low in penetration test. Thanks for sharing!
Loved everything but the penetration test. The kinetic energy that close is very much the same. Do 20-30 yard test also"hunting distances" not point blank and make sure Josh is around for that one
Great job showing this guys!! That is exactly what should happen as all the different weight arrows are shot from the same bow and have very close to the same Ke. The bows efficiency isn’t increasing much due to the initial efficiency of the bow with even the 400gr. Good work! Thank you!
Just like with rifle bullets, the gains are seen down range. Not at the muzzle.. or point blank. Light arrows shed energy and momentum, heavy arrows carry it further.. just like high SD bullets..
You can also compare low SD bullets to high SD bullets at short range, and the low SD bullets will perform very similarly...
But get out to "rifle range" and the gains are seen in the high SD bullets. Because it carries momentum and sheds velocity much less. 👍
Shooting the arrows at 2 yards was the mistake. This stuff has been proven in giant carcasses in Africa too many times to deny. Heavy arrows penetrate animals deeper. It's simply fact.
And the bow efficiency is a different animal.
Heavy arrows are able to absorb more energy transfer, regardless of bow efficiency.. this is why heavier arrows are quieter..
This stuff isn't magic. And exactly why views will never gain much more IBOfps.. they are about maxed out in mechanical efficiency.
I like my arrows to be around mid 400s. Both arrow setup i have around 437-477. Axis are 477 and rip tkos are 437.
Seems to be a sweet spot
Impact at 60 yards is where the experts say the rubber meets the road.
Seems reasonable, but in everything there is balance.
Me? I say shoot a small efficient broadhead on large game with a reasonable arrow weight. I agree with the 475-500 grain thoughts mentioned.
Super heavy just makes hitting harder especially if you do have to follow up on wounded game at some silly distance.
Thinking back, somewhere I heard a arrow design engineer make a statement that there is no advantage in shooting any arrow that is heavier than 8.4 grains times the weight of the bow you are shooting. 8.4 grains X 60lbs = 504 grain arrow. That is the heaviest he recommended, interesting comment by an arrow engineer. Couldn't understand the math he put up to show this? He didn't mess with FOC, fletching etc. Just arrow flight. Just a thought.
The only way the 800 would be more effective is if it had the same velocity as the 400, which the 75fps drop out of the bow, and the huge drop in distance and lack of penetration is the killer of the heavy arrow myth. This is the best test I've seen that is actually correct to real world.
Great stuff. There's no doubt the heavy arrow is a bigger arc. RF did a test when you are zeroed for 40 for each different arrow. Then shoot at 45 with the 40 yard zero simulating a ranging error or moving animal. The difference between light and heavy was about 1.5". That would an actual scenario. You would have your sight set for your setup. See if you get the same. Thanks for the content.
Love seeing the 400 gr. Arrow get the recognition it deserves. Shot a cow elk quartering toward me at 80 yards with a 425 axis and grim reaper razortip... arrow came out her off side back ham. Hoyt vtm 31, 30" draw 68 pounds.
There’s a lot wrong with this statement.
First, if the animal was quartering (a 45* angle towards you) a shot ending in the back jam without deflection would be an entry behind the front shoulder. That’s liver/gut only. If the animal was hard quartering or frontal, that’s one/two ribs on facing side only max and just a lot of tissue.
Either way, a quartering to or hard quartering to/frontal on an elk at 80 yards is not a very ethical shot. Clearly it worked out but odds are much greater it wouldn’t than it actually working out.
While I’m a heavy arrow/high FOC guy and I even shoot 90#’s, I’m not even arguing about the setup in your anecdotal example. I wouldn’t recommend that long of a shot with such a high risk with any setup unless the animal was previously wounded
@officerfoxtrot3633 lol... it went through the front shoulder blade... then continued its DIAGONAL trajectory into her back ham. She didn't go 40 yards. It's not an ethical shot .. only if your an internet troll that isn't good enough to make a shot like that. Clearly you can't. Just another day's work for us real hunters that tagged out.
Why? Don't ever do that again
He’s gonna do the same shot next year and be up for nights wondering why it didn’t kill the animal
@@theamericansavage I’m confused. Quartering to shot is a 45 degree angle facing you. If the exit is in the back ham, the entry cannot be in the front shoulder at that angle. It would be further back. If the entry was in fact in the front shoulder, and the exit was in the back ham, the angle would be greater than 45 degrees and nearly a fully frontal shot. That would mean the “quartering to” description was not accurate. If the description was accurate, your entry/exit cannot be accurate. It’s a simple angle calculation. A diagonal at 45 degrees ending in the back ham would have to be further back on the animal than the front shoulder. To hit the front shoulder and back ham the angle would be greater than 45 degrees.
In regards to your comment about my ability I have this to say. Lol.
I have not shot an animal past 56 yards. Because I believe it’s not ethical past 60. I can and have shoot foam and paper consistently out to 120. While I may not be a tourney archer, I’m definitely more invested money and time wise than the average archer, and my skills represent that.
So when you say you’re a “real hunter who tagged out” it really tells me what I need to know. Cause only an internet troll who couldn’t make an 80 yard frontal on an elk with a light arrow getting extreme penetration would believe that an arrow commonly seen on hundreds of hunting channels failing to penetrate more than 15 inches into a whitetail is either a miracle or not true.
Next time you’re scratching your head wondering why your cheap 100 grain replaceable head and 400 grain light gpi arrow didn’t get the pass thru you expected, maybe considering not being so close minded and take another’s perspective into account. 👍🏻
@TimConnor13 - Shoot the different arrow weights at distance not so close something like 60 yards and see the penetration changes. Besides that great video as always.
I'd like to see how much an arrow slows down due to drag. I've never seen anyone shoot an arrow through a chrono other than at 1-2 yards
The Hunting Public has a video I believe where they use a radar chronograph to show the speed loss of different arrows at range
This same type of test was being done back when bows were reaching 250 fps, then an unheard of 275, and the unthinkable 300fps. Over and over the lighter arrow had better accuracy, smaller height variance, and as good or better penetration. So yeah, a test repeated that shows the same results is valid.
The question is: how much of the variation in penetration can you explain by variation of one of other parameters. Here I see a little variation in KE (about 3%: from light to heavy: 116 J, 118 J, 120 J) and about 30% in variation of momentum (2.5, 3, 3.5)... So we have little variation in KE (that is logic, 3% shows that he is shooting a high quality bow) and a huge variation in momentum. We have a little variation in penetration and the observations suggest that the heavier arrows would go a very little bit further. So for this setup (and only for this setup: plastic bottle and water) the penetration seems to be a function of KE and not of momentum. We cannot extrapolate this experiment to hunting and shooting on a live animal. A bow is basically a constant kinetic energy output machine (give or take a few percent). There was a field point here and this tears the plastic, it doesn't cut it. So suggestion for next experiments: use a fixed cut on contact broadhead, remove the fletching (in essence: only change one variable at a time), use the same spine arrow (some energy is lost in more bending), do repeated measure for weight and speed (at least 3) and repeated tests.
Drop will not be a linear relationship to arrow speed as the drop of the arrow is *accelerating* in time. Your speed as you fall increases over time because you're accelerating so that's why it's not linear. That's why when you jump out of a plane, you accelerate towards the earth, until you hit your terminal velocity where drag equals gravitational force
Two things. first the drop distance on the first test. Reason is this Speed, Distance and Weight. Gravity. 2. Similar to first. with the jugs. Speed distanace and weight. What is the Kinetic energy of this same test at differnet distances. Love your testing methods. Just would try the disanced changes to answer the penetration test or Kinetic energy. Keep of the good work with the testing processes . Love the content
Try shooting each arrow weight out of different bows with the same speed. Example 800 grain at 224 ft./s out of one bow. 600 grains out of another bow at 224 ft./s. And then the 400 grain out of another bow at 224 ft./s. And do a penetration test again. I would like to see the difference in penetration of the different weight arrows at the same speed.
I don't know how anyone can make an argument for an 800g arrow in North America with how limiting that is to range, and 600g is just overkill. I'm digging this content testing stuff
I shot an bull elk with a 412 grain arrow, 1.5” cut dead meat broadhead, 58lb’s 28.5 draw, went in and poked out the other side!! Fast arrow always beats the slow, and remember your always putting your bow weight into the arrow no matter the weight of the arrow, same force in equals same force out
Yeah, this is good I like it. I think if you were going to add to it, I would try to shoot through a chronograph at 40 yards or 60 and see what the speed loss looks like at that distance. It would give you a good representation of what the light hero is able to retain from a kinetic energy standpoint at that distance in comparison to 600 and 800 grain arrows.
Just need a radar. This test is out there online - it's not that significant.
That’s irrelevant. The drop on an 800 grain arrow is so significant that no sane person should ever think that shooting an 800 grain arrow is a good idea
It's called conservation of energy. Thay all reach the same penetration because the slow heavier weight arrow has the same kinetic energy as the faster lighter arrow.
I figured up the kinetic energy of all the arrows so the 400 grain arrow at 310fps has 115.70 pounds of kinetic energy, the 600 grain arrow at 256fps has 118.35 pounds of kinetic energy, and the 800 grain arrow at 224fps has 120.82 pounds of kinetic energy. It's not even worth an extra 5lbs of kinetic energy unless you are making a 70 yard shot on a big animal then it might make a difference but other then that there is no need for all that extra weight when faster arrow makes just as much kinetic energy
Much better test........... Shoot thru the chrono at point blank, 25 yards & 50 yards and you can calculate everything.
Your arrow begins to fall at the acceleration of gravity once it leave the bow. In 1 second it will fall 32 ft (right we all know that). If your arrow is traveling 300fps (doesn't lose any velocity) how long will it take to hit a target at 100 yards? It will fall 32 ft over that 100 yards. (1/2*g*t^2 is the formula)
Then go to the field and test the calculations.
Interesting video guys. So maybe broadhead selection has more effect on penetration than arrow weight?
you should make 3 huge blocks of ballistics gel and set it out to 40 yards and dump those arrows into it and see if the energy output is the same. I have no dog in the fight, but would love to see how that energy is distributed at range since we can see clearly that it's distributed evenly this close up.
A bow a certain draw weight and draw length can only create a certain amount of energy, the only way to make a heavier arrow penetrate further is to increase the the amount of energy applied to said arrow. I.E. increase draw weight/length.
Dude that was very interesting, as soon as Josh said you will be surprised I knew I was going to be surprised!! Keep the cool videos rolling!
Love the tests, I would like to see the water test without vanes as most of the drag comes from them vs the containers.
I agree, no vanes next time.
MfJJ titanium 50 grain, with a 15 grain weight.
Victory Vap SS arrows 300 spine
Lighted nocks
461 grains 29/70
Perfect arrow.
Great videos! Keep them coming.
Here's an idea for part two: shoot at waterbottles at 60 yds to see if the heavier arrows retain more momentum.
Not surprised at all. If you think you need more momentum, add draw weight. Broadhead design is MUCH more critical to penetration than arrow weight.
Here are observations from someone with some engineering knowledge: All three arrows had similar kinetic energy 400 got 85 ft-lb, 600 got 87 ft-lb, and 800 got 88.5 ft-lb. The bow delivers it's draw energy into a heavier arrow with slightly greater efficiency, but it's not enough to change the penetration that much. Penetration is a function of kinetic energy and the arrow shape. I think smaller diameter shafts do penetrate deeper with field points, and different hunting points penetrate differently. With recurve bows, much more of the draw energy goes into limb motion and is lost when the arrow is lighter, you might try this test again with a recurve.
I hunt in heavy brush for whitetail so I need something with a flat trajectory. I was using 450gr arrows and switched to a 372gr arrow, and what I noticed was the 450gr arrow went halfway through my target at 50 yards, and the 372gr went all the way through. My guess is the smaller arrow has a higher bc and is retaining more energy at range and has less friction through the target.
The heavy arrows accelerate down, with g. Because the arrow is flying slower it has more time to accelerate down. It’s not a linear drop speed till it starts falling at terminal velocity. Momentum plays a roll in resisting movement from wind and glancing blows, bumps into branches etc. For penetration it’s all kinetic energy in terms of an arrow. You’re using energy to push material out of the way of the tip of the arrow. It doesn’t matter if it’s a more massive arrow flying slower it has the same kinetic energy as a lighter arrow flying faster. It’s not the same for bullets cause you get into cavitation the body of the bullet breaking up and strange things with drag with arrows hitting a surface normal to the direction it’s more straightforward.
Where you will see a difference in penetration is at longer distances... Like past 50 yards with the heavier arrow , which is pointless to me because where I hunt it's usually 40 yards and less... The arrows that I shoot are 450 - 480 grain and I have no problem whatsoever with penetration .. it's all about shot placement..✌️
I don't even hunt but still found this interesting. As a target shooter only reason for me to use a larger arrow it to cut lines, but I still want the lightest arrow I can get. Seems to me there is no advantage or logical reason to use a heavier arrow to hunt. At the very least I would think the speed would give you an advantage when it comes to trajectory. Cool tests...fun to watch.
Penetration test further down range 🙏🏽
Hey Tim, would love a video on how to make your own large targets and even like target backstops for people who can only shoot in their driveway into their garage. (Like folks who live in the city like me 😂).
I like the argument the heavy arrow community uses when they say "the target defines the test" If you shot all three arrows into a brick wall they would all barely penetrate. We don't really see that on animals. You wouldn't shoot a Cape buffalo with a 400 grain arrow. If you think about it from a penetration standpoint those results would indicate you could. Just food for thought. I'm totally game for whatever anyone wants to shoot as long as their broached is sharp as hell.
Informative testing. I wonder what happens if you go lighter than the 400 grain. Faster speeds would tighten the sight pin spread which is a good thing but is there a point where the benefits of faster lighter arrows gives out to lower penetration and/or poor stability in windy conditions?
I have blown through deer with 27.5 inch draw length at 57 pounds with 342 grain arrow with grim reaper mechanical broadheads. I can't understand why anybody would want to handicap themselves with a heavy arrow. A bow is built for maximum efficiency around a 350 arrow at 70 pounds. 7 grains per pound of draw weight is the highest I would ever go on an arrow build. God bless and happy hunting
Thank God you guys are putting out content like this. Im constantly having guys come into my bow shop wanting 600 plus grain arrows for midwest whitetails and they dont listen when i tell them its not worth it.
Thank ranch fairy for that😂. I mean it would be cool to hunt big game in Africa with a stick bow ….. but a whitetail ??…. Cmon guys
Yeah to each their own hey.. but it’s like the more ya know
@@TimConnor13 Exactly. I dont ever harrass anybody over their set up or refuse to sell them something, but I do try to inform them of what they are getting themselves into.
@@tonyviers-de9qi dont even get me started on ranch fairy 😒
Like you, I’m not an advocate either way. I’m shooting 435gr right now and really liking the yardage forgiveness.
Love watching the comparisons. Great job!
People need to relax and you do you and don’t worry about what I do.
What we need to be focused on more than this is range error. Do this same test but sight all 3 in at 30. Step to 35 and shoot the 30 pin. How much range forgiveness do you have?
I put this together not long ago as an example of my setup if I were to go to a 650 grain arrow. Some online characters minimize it - but this is actual data calibrated from Archers Advantage and my chrono. If I were to shoot a 650 grain arrow at 30 yds and it actually is 35 yds I would hit 1.5" low. Over an entire broadhead low/high.
If whitetail vitals are say 10" (which less on smaller bodied & shrinks quartering shots) you have given up 15% precision to your intended shot location just in range error alone. Compound that with any other errors in your shot and it's easily much more than that. Let's say you're average broadhead group size in the backyard at 30 yds is 3". Pretty decent and probably above average based on what I see. Now what is your broadhead group size in hunting conditions? Let's be generous and say it opens up only .5" to a 3.5" group at 30yd from a tree stand. That means that off the top you actually have a window of 6.5" you've got to get that arrow in (10"-3.5" = 6.5"). So you're actual precision you've reduced your odds of hitting vitals in elevation a whopping 23% from the 294 fps setup. This doesn't even touch the subject of giving the animal more time to react.
The question people need to be asking themselves is: Am I concerned about penetration so much that I'm willing to give up as much as 23% of vertical precision?
Be honest with yourself.. How well can you range? If you're hunting fixed ranges at feeders this effect is minimal. If you're a whitetail hunter who is pre-ranging when you get in a tree because those deer pop out quick and don't give the opportunity, then this is applicable to you. If you're doing the same when that bull is coming in and you have to draw before he pops into that opening you pre-ranged then this matters to you. Make your decisions wisely & consider picking your broadhead based on your penetration needs but not your arrow weight.
I know this was forever ago, but I forgot about it so I watched it again. Why didn't you guys show the numbers here, or did you show them somewhere else?
Back in the day, I remember seeing the old timers make "Buffalo Arrows" by taking a 2116 Alloy and hammering it down the centre of a 2319 Alloy before throwing 300gr broadheads on the front
I swear, the arrows must've weighed 1300gr and they looked like they fell out of the bow
The water jug results surprised me, but after thinking about it and realizing how close you were to the jugs I think that if you measured your KE at that range it would be fairly even between the 3 arrows. Still a good test. The advantage of the heavier arrow is breaking bone and holding momentum over distance. I also believe that uniform mediums like water and gel also favor lighter arrows.
Your bow has a set amount of stored or potential energy, putting that same amount of energy into each arrow. Meaning at launch all three arrows will have about the same amount of energy. The lighter arrows will slow down faster though
@@bigz5262 If the lite arrows are slowing down faster why do they drop less?
@@miltonreeths522 that’s a fair question, I’m not a scientist so if I get the terminology wrong I apologize. Arrows aren’t dropping because they’re slowing down, they’re dropping due to gravity. Flight time has a lot to do with it, the heavier arrow takes longer to get there so gravity has more of an affect. Imagine you just dropped both arrows, they would probably hit the ground at the same time, depending on how high you were. The same thing happens but the arrow is moving forward too. If you launched them both perfectly level then they’d hit the ground in about the same time but the faster arrow would have traveled farther just because of its speed
The faster something is moving the more drag it has on it, think of taking your foot off the gas in your at 30 mph and then at like 60. Which speed do you notice the drag more?
The hunting public has a really interesting video on how much velocity is lost on 6 different arrows out to 60 yards. It’s pretty interesting. Search THP lab radar and you’ll probably find it
@@bigz5262 I was just messing with you. Objects of the same size and shape but different weight, the heavier object will hit the ground faster combined with the slower arrow speed gives it the double wamby for drop. I gave the RF a challenge to shoot a 3d unknown yardage course with 600 grain arrows ,then shoot the same course with 450 grain arrows and see what scores better. Yea I watched the video which didn't prove much. Arrow drop and the time it takes to get to the target is more important. I don't watch much of the THP since they started sniffing the RF dust. They want to break bone, I want to cut a BIG hole in the soft stuff.
@@miltonreeths522 it didn’t prove much except that the heavier arrow has more momentum at 60 yards than the light arrow at launch. They don’t plan on hitting bone but the way they hunt, having to take a lot of quarter-to shots, it’s going to happen. None of their shots are past 30 yards and the trajectory difference between a 425 grain arrow and 550 (which is what they recommend) at that range is minimal. Personally I think people bicker way too much about arrow mass instead of worrying about tuning their bows or sharpening their broadheads or working on their shot
My testament to light arrow gang is my 30 yd shot on a cow elk with a 380g arrow. Went vane deep square into the scapula into vitals. (Slight quartering to) Sharp fixed blade G5 Montec like MFJJ recommended. Energy transfer is 🔑
The only drop measurement needed is what is the difference of shooting 45 yards and using your 40 yard pin to simulate you misjudging your animal. Shooting 500gr now going to try 450 and 475 next.
your friend is so fair he knew his opinion before you even started....
I would think that the KE at this close distance and right out of the bow would be very similar. I thought the purpose of heavier arrows was that it maintained the KE at further distances while the lighter arrow lost KE but kept a flatter curve. Right....?............Right?!..........
Are heavy arrow guys shooting them long range?
@@TimConnor13 At least to 30-45yrds. Not necessarily "long range" but certainly further than what was tested. I'd love to see the penetration at 20-30-40yrds and see if there's a difference. It may not be substantial but I think this is the point of the heavier arrow. My arrows are 538grain. Not ridiculous but I'll practice out to 80.
@@Jase-Ethat's actually not that heavy of an arrow at 80# if you think about it.
@JamesBond-oc4gm right. Personally, I wanted something in-between. But, that's how I understood heavy arrows to work and their intention.
I don’t see why this is such a big issue. Shoot the heaviest arrow you can shoot that gives you an acceptable trajectory. I’m sick of hearing guys say that out west you gotta shoot 80 yards cause every video I see those guys are shooting elk at 15-30 yards maybe some that get to 45 yards. The top arrow is idiotic as with the bottom one as well. Neither extreme is good. A good 500-550 arrow is money.
I shot my mule deer at 50 yards.. 440 grain arrow broadside had nice pass through
The big issue is this; Team heavy arrow thinks you need a 500g+ hammer to hunt with. The issue you saw was that the distance at 60 yards the drop was almost 2 ft or 4 ft for the extreme. Why give up 50+fps AND distance forgiveness AND arrow path clearance AND sight clearance PLUS increase possibility of animals “jumping the string”, with all of those adding up to LESS accuracy, for THE SAME PENETRATION? You’re not optimizing the performance you could get out of your bow or arrow by just “shooting the heaviest for acceptable trajectory”. Heavy arrows are a fad- thank you Tim and Josh. 🙏
Well you keep hunting with your twizzler and I’ll keep my 550. Just ran into a guy the other night on public who lost a huge 10 pt and why? Because he was shooting a 398 grain arrow with all that speed and got about 6-8” of penetration before arrow snapped off. And you are really misinformed if you believe you get same penetration with a light arrow as you do with a heavy arrow. As far as drop I don’t ever think I have shot an animal past 50 yards and I would love to see some of these animals that are part of the matrix that can move out of the way from an arrow! I’m sorry but all animals jump the string it is an instinctive reaction. But that’s why I like hunting I can use what I want and you can use what you want.
@@joevandivner9704 everyone’s got a story for why they run their set up. The video proves if you want to get as much out of your bow as possible you’d use a lighter arrow. Doesn’t have to be in the 300’s. Just lighter. Take care.
@@BcG3425not the same penetration. 🤣 This stuff has been proven endlessly in huge carcasses in Africa... Penetration in water jugs at 2 yards is irrelevant. Heavy arrows penetrate deeper than lighter arrows from the same input energy. This is factual.
Guys please. Penetration to velocity ratios could've been mathematically proven at 15 yards. Same with 40 yards, that's where you'll notice a definitive difference.
This shouldn't surprise anyone. Joel Maxfield has been doing this for years.
Put a solid broadhead on you will see the different
By actual calculations a 450 grain arrow has the ft lb force required to kill medium to large size game and has minimal drop between yardages but you still have people shooting 600+ grain arrows
Awesome..... "i don't think so Tim!!"
I would love to see the other end of the spectrum where shooting under 400 grains. Like 350 or 325 and if possible lower than that. What about no fletchings?
Just changed my setup from 430 grain to 340 grains... by going from 64lb to 68lb draw with nearly 100 gr lighter, i kept my kinetic energy and cut my pin gap by 45%. 30-50 yd pins are on top and bottom of my deer target. So very forgiving now versus my old arrows.
Yea good suggestion. Would be good to see. With Tim's setup they can't shoot any lighter than 350 gr. But would be good to see at 350
There's a time and place for every arrow lighter with long distance works better for things like antelope where you have longer shots but best believe I want that extra weight if I'm shooting a moose or a bear which will typically be sub 50 yards deer seems like the in-between you could end up with a sub 20 shot and also a plus 50 I keep mine around 600 with fixed blades and have noticed significant difference from the mid 3 to 400 weighted arrows I used for years
It’s a good thing I’m not zeroing for one arrow setup and then attempting to shoot a much heavier setup for the same pin settings.
What people don't understand is a compound bow is a KE machine. It dumps 85ftlbs of KE into every single arrow equally. There is a very very small margin number change for cam efficiency with different arrow weights but it's like 2-4ftlbs. Every compound bow super light arrow or super heavy arrow implants the same amount of KE into the arrow every time.
Right. So then the question becomes how much energy is lost while the arrow is traveling to the target. Which means a well-tuned bow and arrow combination is very important as is reducing air resistance. All to minimize energy loss during arrow travel.
@@emrobi1962 if your setup is shooting over 40KE you don't need to worry about it. Most archery shots are 40 yards and in. The difference between evergy at 30y and energy loss at 50y really doesn't matter. You lose what, 8ft of KE? You're still left with 68KE? Dude. My fiance kills deer from every shot angle with a 38lb bow at 26" draw. She has not had a single animal without a passthrough out to 40yards. Guys over here pulling 70+ pounds worrying about KE at a distance they will never shoot if it has enough energy. It makes no sense. Don't pick that hill to die on.
@@emrobi1962 MFJJ just killed a pronghorn at 90+ yards with a RIP XV and a expandable broadhead. I can promise you his arrow didn't weigh more than 400gr. 90 yards downrange that super light arrow with a big broadhead still opened both sides of that goat up. At 90+ yards. Do you think MFJJ cared about his energy loss at that distance? No. Neither should your average deer hunter shooting out to 40 yards with a bow drawing 50lbs or more. Pick a good arrow. Pick a strong insert system and a good quality broadhead. That's it. And practice like a mad man. That's more important than calculating your 7-9ftke loss at a certain distance.
Also, the added trajectory for he 800 grain arrow over 50 yards would make it unusable in a dense forest situation.
I would like to see the same thing but with broadheads. All the same brand and model just different weights. I have to say I am with Josh if the broadhead doesn't give you anything more in penetration. Additionally, I think the penetration test with layered cardboard would be interesting. Shoot all 3 weights and see how many layers it goes through with broadheads. I really feel like since we all hunt with broadheads, that is the real test. Good stuff Tim thanks for the content.
Thanks dude
I keep hearing this saying like, "would you rather get hit by a ping pong ball or a bowling ball??" People do know that 400 grn difference is literally an OUNCE different in weight. So it's more like, would you rather get hit by a ping pong ball going fast, or slow?? People make their minds up on a subject and then just completely ignore any results that don't align with their prerogative.
Trajectory > Arrow Weight ; Don’t care what you say, the performance “gain” going heavier isn’t proportional to the trajectory loss.
Kinetic energy, gentlemen
Yes, yes, YES! Loved this one. Accuracy and consistency over everything in my opinion.
my dude!
When you are talking a 400 grain arrow or a 425 grain arrow etc.... Are you including the broadhead in that weight??
yes, total arrow weight
There is on ly 3 foot pounds difference in kinetic energy or about 2% therefore they should finish about 1/4" apart. KE= 85.5 for 400 grains; 87.5 for 600 grains; 88.2 for 800 grains!
Yeah! Sticking with 450 gr arrow. Learned my lesson going really heavy 40 yrs ago lol
Remember you are measuring FPS right out of the bow. That heavier arrow will have more drag and be more affected by gravity. If you ran them through the chrono at 20 yds, the variance would be greater between the arrows
I've always shot the lightest shortest fastest arrows I can make. My hunting buddies have always went heavy and I've had less deer and hogs jump the strings than they have. I live in SC and a 375 grain arrow doing 310 will kill anything we have.
Super interesting…thanks for sharing 👏🏻