This is the best video I’ve seen on the subject. You completely changed my mind on the subject. The penetration was 6 of 1 and 1/2 a dozen of the other. But, the trajectory at distance, and the speed is what swayed me over to the lighter arrow. Good job.
Pretty comprehensive test, I especially appreciate that you used the paper jig to plot the trajectory at different distances. That plays a pretty significant factor if you find yourself wanting to take a shot at 30 yards or more.
No issues with the methodology of the test or the composition of the target. Perfectly sound. The amount of energy that the bow delivers is a function of the stiffness of the limbs, the draw length (which determines how much the limbs are flexed), and the efficiency of the cam system. As none of these factors change with arrow mass, the "muzzle energy" is constant. It is that energy that determines penetration, so we expect "point blank" shots to penetrate the same distance, no matter the mass of the arrow. What slows an arrow down is air drag, and drag force depends on the square of velocity, so a faster, lighter arrow is losing velocity (and energy) faster than a slower, heavier one. But that velocity advantage means it is covering ground faster, and the short time of flight means it has less time to lose energy, so the drag penalty doesn't hurt it at short ranges. There exists a range though, beyond which the light arrow has lost enough velocity (and thus energy) such that it now has less energy than the heavier arrow, and the heavier arrow will start to show a penetration advantage, with the magnitude of that advantage based on the mass delta and the range. The open question is if that range is close-in enough to be of any practical use - especially when one considers the longer time of flight with a slow arrow at long range and the heavily arced trajectory. At practical shooting ranges, with there being no real difference in penetration, the lighter arrows shorter time of flight and flatter trajectory pay big dividends - just as you concluded. Where things get interesting is if the bow is NOT the same in each case, ie the heavy arrow is mated to a higher draw weight bow. Shooting the heavy and light arrows at the same muzzle velocity (but no longer the same muzzle energy) means that the heavy arrow gets the same flat trajectory and short time of flight, but penetrates deeper and over a longer range band - at the cost of more effort to draw the bow. Of course, moving to a heavier bow means that it can shoot the light arrow even faster - so now all we've done is offset the whole curve upwards - although the increased drag with the higher velocity might change the crossover range in a meaningful range. That would make for a fun test to see if it is the case. There is also a range beyond which the arc of the trajectory is so high that gravity starts to play a part in sustaining velocity - but now we are talking "Battle of Hastings" ranges, not "whitetail hunting" ranges. Fun stuff!
Best video on this subject I’ve ever seen! Thanks for taking the time to do this video! Like too see the difference between 400 & 450 grains. Thanks again
The math on this is actually simple. Momentum = mass x velocity. If your arrows are using the bow/string energy efficiently, then a heavier arrow will go a little slower and a lighter arrow a little faster…. Yet both will have roughly identical momentum. That being the case, speed has the overall advantage. Thirty years ago the argument might have had merit. But there have been such advances in technology in every aspect of archery that today, the energy is used very efficiently.
What a time consuming test you’ve done. Very informative results. I do quite a bit of testing myself and can certainly appreciate how much effort you guys put into this!
Thank you so much for your time and effort in this test. It seems like the speed as a lot more advantageous over all. Plus I have always been a heavy arrow shooter. So thank you for changing my mind!!
All good info! I would like to see this comparing the 450gr(i would not consider that light, that is midweight or some guys would consider it heavy!) versus a 350 grain arrow. I shot 350 grain arrows without really thinking about it for 25 years- basic 400 spine/8.4gpi arrow, stock insert, stock nock, 2" blazers, 100 grain head. Everyone I knew shot essentially the same thing. I changed to a 530 grain setup a few years ago but didnt like the 'rainbow' of the arrow past about 25 yards, I took 50 grains off my setup so shooting 480 grains now which seems to be a nice middle ground as it really flattened it out past 25 yds.
I just watched a video where a guy put a 450 clean through a scapula, perfect triangular hole through the middle of it, through a lung, through the liver, and out the other side. They’re all going to kill an elk. A heavier arrow isn’t going to kill an elk any better than a lighter arrow if you take a bad shot. The arrow weight horse is dead, everyone stop beating it.
Thank you for taking the time to do this. I shoot 434 gr. @ 65#, 30"DL, and both deer last year were complete passthroughs, with the being a quartering shot through the backbone and coming out just behind the opposite shoulder(I forgot to reset my sight in the heat of the moment, and shot the doe at 24 yds with my sight set at 42 yds from the previous days practice. She was quartering away slighty up hill). If I were shooting a 650 gr arrow, I would have shot a foot over her back. Advantage to the lighter, faster arrow, and that shot was with NAP DK 4 hybrid.
100%….the way I look at it even if the heavy arrows gives you a slight advantage in penetration (which we have not seen) it is not worth the flat shooting faster advantages you gain!
I’m glad someone finally did this. The debate about arrow weight has become rather ridiculous. The advocates for “Ashby” type weights, rarely if ever discuss trajectory or yardage estimation. Shot placement will always be the most important criteria for determining success, in my opinion. If you do nothing but hunt hogs over feeders at 20 yards, trajectory and yardage estimation are non issues, for the rest of us, these things matter. While preparing for our Cape Buffalo hunt, we played with a lot of different arrow setups. The one we settled on was much lighter than the conventional wisdom would suggest, but we went with what we thought made sense. I settled on a 578 grain, 17% FOC arrow with a single bevel broadhead, arrow speed was 266 fps. Most scoffed at the setup, including the PH’s in Africa. I wish I could post a picture, but the results were surprising. The arrow went completely through the bull, sticking 10 inches out of the opposite side, he made it 20 yards before piling up. I believe a setup that is well balanced between weight and speed will be more effective over a broader range of hunting situations. Thanks for the video, well done.
@@Rhyno430 he sure does, but you rarely hear that. So much emphasis is placed on total weight, FOC, and the bone breaking threshold of 650 grain arrows. Personally, I shoot the heaviest arrow I can that gives me 280-300 fps, which is within my acceptable trajectory for hunting
The reason people argue Bone, is because 650 grains is the bone breaking threshold according to the asbee research. This is why you see so many shoulder shots in videos where 95% of the arrow is sticking out of the deer as it runs away! But in addition, the single bevel broadhead also is a factor because they break bone better. Having killed some 25 deer since going down this rabbit hole myself, I can tell you that it does penetrate and break bone better. Also, and equally important though FEW people ever talk about it, the heavy arrow make the bow quieter, and the slower arrow makes less noise going through the air, and research has shown that deer are not jumping the string, but rather jumping the sound of the arrow going toward it as evidenced with slow motion footage of multiple deer in field but only the one being shot at doing the massive ducking.
Thank you for the comment and taking the time to watch the video….I personally believe KE pays a larger role than Momentum when it comes to penetration but question for you. Same size (length and diameter) arrow….one is 450 and shoots at 300 FPS….the other is a 650 and shoots at 150 FPS….which is higher in booth KE and Momentum? Run this equation and let’s talk some more about “weight” being a bench mark…..thanks again!
@UClbxp001BrdRv48dWBYB5Ow might want to rerun your math there Phil on the 450/650 KE on the arrows I tested…..I didn’t say KE was king. You said 650 was the threshold for bone breaking according to the ashbee report (I think you mean Ashby)……if that is the case and you would certainly agree an arrow with more KE and more momentum would penetrate better please go back and also reread my question to you on the 650 and 450 grain arrows at the different SPEEDS I noted. My point here is weight is absolutely not the threshold and lots of guys have been confused and sent down the wrong path with arrow selection.
there is a guy with a channel called WapitiWear and he has some good tests of shooting heavy bone (fresh elk shoulder )with various weights and broadheads, if anyone is curious about that. You did an awesome job with your testing.
I appreciate the work that was put in to make this video. BUT, It drives me nuts when penetration tests are done on man made targets. The truth is told when you run it through an animal. 18 years of bow hunting and I'm 1000% convinced the heavier high FOC arrow is the ticket for big game hunting. I shoot a 74#, 30" draw and In the beginning I used 385gr light, fast arrows and I rarely got a pass through on deer. 7-8 years ago I jumped up to 470gr arrows and getting a pass through became common with the arrow sticking in the dirt a couple inches. Early 2022 I beefed up to a 540gr arrow with 14.9% FOC and last fall I buried the arrow 6-7" in the dirt after a steep quartering away pass through on a mature buck. The arrow entered high, very back of the rib cage and came out the opposite armpit. The sound it made when the arrow hit that buck was a very noticeable, different, more violent sound. A pass through would have been unlikely with my previous arrows. The real world results are more than enough for me.
How do you get consistent data from shooting an animal as every single shot hits different…..it’s impossible. That is the big issue for us hunters, what we need and want to test on is impossible to test on so you have to do the next best thing…..if we want to talk about shooting animals and modern results with modern equipment need to look at guys that shoot lots and lots of stuff each year not 2-3 deer….guys like Dave Holt and Joel Maxfield…Dave shoots over 150 animals a year in Africa and is sponsored by no one….he shoots a 450 grain arrow…..why is that? Why would a technical bow junkie that has studied this stuff for 40 years and shoots modern equipment do this working for a culling/meat operation, only getting paid for killing results…….Because of trajectory and speed and still having plenty of penetration. Anyway glad you are having success with your setup…best of luck to you and thanks for the comment and watching the video.
This is the test I’ve been waiting for. I’ve always went for a lighter arrow and more speed because I’ve always felt I got better performance. And this just proved my point. The kinetic energy difference is 5ftlbs. SPEED KILLS!
When you’re hunting, it’s not like a deer stops and let’s you range it, turns broad side and you get a clean shot. So if your trajectory is only off @4”in between a 20 & 30yd shot, that’s a lot of forgiveness in the vitals. I’ll take a straighter flight and more forgiveness then a looping shot hoping I got the yardage right! All my opinion of course…
Speaking as an engineer, you are missing a whole aspect to your test. What is the penetration difference at 20, 30, 40, and 60 yds. I will tell you, mathematically, the heavier arrow surpasses the lighter arrow at some point. The lighter arrow will slow down faster. You could also go to the extreme and go really light vs heavy. A better test is the spine of the arrow. A more flexible arrow with a poor balance will deflect more at impact. A well tuned bow makes a huge difference. If the back of the arrow is not directly behind the front of the arrow you will experience deflection on impact. Have you ever had an arrow crooked in a target?
Great testing guys !! I have read and seen studies done on impact of lite and heavy shafts. Lite shafts slow down at a greater pace, which I guess really doesn't matter because they start out going faster to begin with. I have read that the heavier shaft retains more energy down range, making them a better choice If you encounter bone.
Great test, thank you. I have seen a few others, and these results keep happening. Everyone is quite surprised. I think speed is important, think of a pneumatic concrete nailer vs hitting the concrete nail with a hammer. The hammer can produce more force, but the shock impact of the 22 cartridge allows it to embed in the concrete.
Not to be a hater, i love these videos always chasing some elusive truth or myth. One thing im gonna mention is if you arent getting complete pass through with a 70 bow with a 2 blade fixed broadhead, your analog is way too resilient and something may be causing fiction, perhaps that is the boards and the arrows tend to punch through and really suffer a lot of friction as the shaft follows through. As another comment had mentions maybe finding something that is hard but fracters unpon impact allowing clean arrow travel through it. Anyways great work and thank you!
This was a wonderful video/test. I would have to say the best one ive ever seen done...well done and great effort put in to this..thank you. Now with all that being said, i have to admit, ive seen time and time again people shooting whitetails on hunting videos right in the sweet spot(right behind the shoulder) broadside at 20 yards and under only get half of the arrow or less than half penatrating into the deer? Really i believe what they are considering light is not the same as what you guys are considering light.
In theory the difference should be magnified considering that the heavy arrow is moving 40fps slower at that distance. Kinetic energy > momentum. My bet would be the light arrow penetrates 2-3 inches more.
@@titansfan2104 it's 40 fps slower.. I don't think it would but be cool to see. It's nice y9 see a test with everything the same or as close as possible
Dear Joe miles just finished watching your video on heavy vs. Light, love your content, would also like to say I heard you talkin about you wanting an arrow that is great for whitetail hunting, I've been hunting with archery equipment for close to thirty-five years I used Mathews bows and I currently have a vxr 28 in also have a Mathews z7 which I hunted deer for quite a few years with but my setup is always been the same I use a 402 grain arrow nap 100 grain spitfire that has been my broadhead of choice for at least the last 27 and I say that because I believe I bought them back in the early 90s and I've had so much success with those type of broadheads I will not change to any other brand there is accurate as your field points I know this because all I do is screw my broadhead on and make sure it is tuned to my fletching and I can literally hit the same spot or right next to it within a quarter inch of my field and I love that because I don't have to worry about all that fixed-blade broadhead tuning crap , I can be hunting within minutes with a broadhead after removing my field. Keep up the scientific work love the stuff.
50 yds or 150 ft: (150 ft ÷ 250 fps) − (150 ft ÷ 280 fps) = .064 sec. An arrow traveling at 250 fps vs 280 fps and the time they take to arrive at 50 yds... slightly more than HALF OF ONE TENTH of a second difference in arrival time AT FIFTY YARDS. What were the arrow setups for the weight changes? Were you using a stiffer spine for the increased weight up front and the changing dynamic spine? Did you tune the bow for each arrow setup? Or were your arrows flying poorly with some of the arrows? A few physics formulas (drag, ballistic coefficient, momentum) prove the idea that heavy arrows maintain velocity down range. Several people have tested this while tuning the bow to every arrow setup. There's actually a few youtube videos showing it.
Great video man. I think one of the biggest problems in this whole debate is what the definition of a light arrow is and what the definition of a heavy arrow is. I think 450 grains is more of a midweight arrow, and 650 grains is an extreme heavy weight Arrow. Everybody's definition is a little bit different. I think you would see way different results if you shot a 320 grain Arrow versus a 520 grain Arrow but I'm never 100% sure of anything! Again great video
Here’s something to think about. It takes 437 grains to make 1 ounce. 1 ounce!!! People think 1/2 ounce moving 50 fps slower is going to penetrate more based on weight? I don’t think so. This video lines up with what I’ve been thinking. Make sure everything is tuned well and your arow is flying perfect and you have a good broadhead
Thank you for doing this. I appreciate the time and effort you put into it. Something seems off to me. Speed deprivation is real and a lighter object decelerates faster than a heavier one which at distance can be an issue. As for the penetration, that is thought provoking for sure.
I’m no rocket scientist but I would think anything with more FOC such as shooting a deer and hitting femur bone with 100gr broadhead versus hitting deer in femur with 150gr broadhead the heavier broadhead would definitely be more devastating and more penetration in my book !
This is a fascinating debate. I can't remember the last time I shot a deer over 20 yards in Minnesota or Wisconsin. At whitetail deer ranges, how much of a factor is speed or trajectory? I hunt primarily in the timber and shoot most of my deer in the morning. They aren't nervously feeding in a food plot and my bow isn't as noisy as what I hear people shooting on the hunting shows. Some of this debate is due to self-inflicted wounds - where a person is shooting a dull or wide-cut expandable broadhead, because they can't tune their bow, and their arrow is failing on rib bones. By the way, 450 grains is not the "light" arrow that people are using - dip down around the 385 grain range and test again.
@@Killada3pt I cited 450 grains because that is the "light" arrow used by Joe Miles in his video. Most people using light arrows are below 400 grains, which is why I suggested using a 385 grain arrow as Joe's light arrow representative rather that 450 grains.
@@h-minus2212 And ALL of this heavy vs light BS is based on the Ashby reports. And they say 500 minimum for whitetails. So for the purpose of the comparison, 450 is light, particularly out of the setup he used.
thank you for this test it seems to prove that you would need to shoot the heavy and light arrows at the same speed in order to see a greater penetration with the heavier arrow. The fact that when the speed slows down with the heavy arrow it takes away some of the penetration which shows that if you shoot a heavier arrow you also need to up the poundage and draw length in order to maintain speed then for sure we would see the diffs There is so much running around with the heavy arrow stories lately but as you as many others are proving theres no real benefit except if you up the speed on the heavy arrow setup.I would say that a decent fixed blade with a reasonable f.o.c will do the job well
Thanks for taking time to do this. As you can see from some of the comments on this video, some people will keep finding some sort of excuse why your test isn’t valid but I think you did as much of a real world test as possible. Great work.
Yeah I tried to prevent as much of that as I could but man this is so debating and people are in one camp or the other and no one likes to be wrong including me and I would have bet the heavy would have done better but in all my testing it just doesn’t
I deal with testing technical rescue equipment and systems and the debates about testing methodology, while frustrating sometimes, is what drives the industry forward. The multitude of variables is what makes it difficult and by sharing testing ideas the backyard testers are getting better. I do agree with others that your test medium is not ideal but it is a step forward from steel drums. So thank you for making us all better. I am fascinated with the speed/weight debate. No one argues That a 470 nitro has more knockdown power than a 308 even if it’s slower. I wouldn’t hunt whitetail with it but I wouldn’t hunt whitetail with a 17HMR either. No matter how flat it shoots.
That arch though at distance on a heavy arrow would be outrageously unwise if your shooting in the woods, you’d be clipping leaves and branches all day
Another good video. I can't tell you how many commenters have said that my setup is too light for any penetration especially if I hit bone and it's just not true. I easily blow through whitetails with a light arrow at 315fps and it breaks ribs and shoulders with ease. I wouldn't use this set-up if it didn't work so well. I don't understand the heavy arrow fans with high foc. The trajectory is terrible. I used to shoot heavy arrows with high foc back when we didn't have much of a choice and I would never go back to that. I use one pin 0-40 yards and at 40 I put the pin 3/4 up on the deers body. I like the simplicity of one pin. Nothing cluttering my view and no confusion during the moment of truth
If you want to argue factors like trajectory, speed degradation, etc on the topic fine. There is no argument however that heavy arrows penetrate better balanced with higher FOC, single bevel broadheads, and properly tuned, than a lighter arrow without those factors. Virtually everyone at this point is familiar with the Ashby reports by name at this point. I find few people have actuallty read through the data collected. For starters Dr. Ashby states numerous times to use the heaviest arrow that has a trajectory you find suitable. Arrow weight is but one of 12 very important factors even though that's always what the argument comes down to. The science and data backs up that an arrow that checks all 12 of those boxes will hands down out penetrate any arrow setup that doesn't but certainly a light arrow shooting a mechanical broadhead with mid-low FOC.
Kudos to you sir. I have never drank the uber heavy arrow kool-aide when it comes to a modern compound bow. The simple fact of the matter is this. A bow of a certain poundage, draw length, brace height, etc, is going to impart a consistent amount of energy to an arrow fired from it. You can vary the weight all you want but a slower 650 grain arrow is going to be imparted with basically the same amount of kinetic energy as the faster 450 grain arrow. The numbers may not line up perfectly but the difference will not be anything worth the loss of arrow speed.
Your awesome video pretty much runs true with my real-world hunting tests. I'm shooting a 31" 460-grain arrow (125-grain broadhead) with a 29" dl at 67lbs getting 468 fps at 10 yards. I've considered dropping back down to a 100-grain head. I've had very good results at around 440 grains as well with pass-throughs in the sweet spot.
Higher FOC translates into more kinetic energy loss down range due to slower arrow recovery and a larger cross wind signature. Increasing your FOC will hurt you significantly at long range.
If the arrows were moving the same speed, the heavier object would produce more kinetic energy. But a heavier arrow moves slower out of a bow that is set to a specific, unchanging setup than a lighter one. His was a 29 inch draw length with a 70lb draw weight I believe. At that setting, a 450gr arrow would produce approx. 84 lb-ft of kinetic energy. A 650gr arrow would produce approx. 72 lb-ft. Every different bow setup has a sweet spot where it's capable of producing the most kinetic energy possible by firing a arrow that weighs a certain amount. His sweet spot is right around 450gr. This would be modeled but going lighter, say a 350gr arrow. It would be screaming along, should do the best right? But with his setup it would be making around 80-81 lb-ft of kinetic energy and not penetrate as well as the 450gr arrow. Lighter arrows go faster, heavier arrows go slower, out of a bow that's doing the exact same thing every time. The trick is finding the optimal weight of arrow, to match up with the force your bow is capable of making, therefore producing the most kinetic energy possible. That equals penetration.
You answered your own question when you said "we know a mechanical wont penetrate as well as a fixed" but yet in your target it did. Your medium isnt even close to what a live animal is. Your test proved the medium you chose is good at stopping arrows period. You cant defy Newton. I do appreciate the effort. With all that said 450gn arrow is an excellent whitetail arrow and will get the job done if you do your part.
Yes, but a it has to be a very similar medium to real life scenario. I’m not sold on their medium, mainly the insulation and plywood, but I’m glad they did this. You can shoot a 300gr arrow and a 1200gr into a cinder block or 1” thick rubber mat medium and probably get the same very low penetration for both. But those results point more towards those mediums being very good at stopping an arrow than what arrow weight would actually penetrate a deer.
These comments are entertaining! I commend you for your efforts on this video, it is well done. I’m curious in one factor that affects penetration, movement. Devise a way to make a target drop at the sound of the shot and see how it affects penetration at 30yds with each of these test arrows. I’ve got a few ideas on how to make this happen. Then compare penetration to a stationary target as well. I think your medium just needs to be ballistics gel covered in hide. My theory is that at the moment of broadhead contact, the heavier arrow flight will be less affected resulting in more penetration. FWIW, I shoot a 469gr arrow. Have a good one! -Jon
I've found anything over 500 grains the penitration is marginal. I elk hunt so I'll stay around 500g, 460g is considered as light as you need to go for elk, moose etc along with a single bevel broad head. 6 bulls in the last 12 yrs proved this for me. Great test and was done as well as possible, thanks. Your 470 would be considered a great weight out west
I shoot Easton axis 5mm match grade 340 spine. 60# at 28.5 inches and I shoot a mathews v3x 29. The grain weigh is 430. And I get great speed. And they are tuff arrows.
I'm at the explanation of the penetration test media and I can tell you now what will happen before he ever shoots an arrow. The plywood will not break out like bone will. It will create so much drag on the shaft that you won't see a measurable difference in penetration. I'm sure he shoots field points too! This is yet another test that means nothing.
It would be interesting to know if it's really more important to have FOC in your build than heavy weight, and some of the assumptions about increased penetration actually come from the fact that you're more likely to gain FOC as your weight goes up? I shoot trad( morrison max 5 super curve, 57lb @ 30") and I just dropped from a 730 grain arrow down to a 550 grain arrow...and I'm seeing better penetration into the medium that I practice on as well. I know the math shouldn't bear this out...but..
I really appreciate your efforts on these tests. There are some things to note though. 650 with a high FOC is what matters 30% or something. Now this is just the study of breaking bone with single bevel 650 doesn’t care about bones. Getting that to fly good and such obviously matters which you guys did. But this science is a lot to take in. Its not about 650. Its about finding the heaviest that your bow can shoot optimally. People get stuck on the grains. 450 with a fixed head will penetrate absolutely you are going about 0.5 slugs of momentum or so and do not waste energy in opening blades. I would sincerely encourage you to do the test again with the heaviest setup that your bow can handle. Go into the 500-600 grains so do this again with 500, 525, 550, 560, 575 and 600 and also use your 450 as a guide one of these 500 series will out perform your 450 guaranteed. 450 though is a good penetrator with fixed heads. I would not recommend mechanical even though they will kill they may not always pass through. Now why 500 series instead of the 600 because not every bow handles it well and some bows end up with the diminishing returns. I can tell you from my own evidence: i have seen arrows bounce off of deer under 50 yards many times and hardly ever have i seen pass through. I have seen 350 grain crossbow bolts not go through deer at 40 yards. My own evidence 350 on a target was a few inch penetration. 415 was half shaft 565 is fletchings buried in she target there is most certainly a benefit to heavy but heavy doesn’t mean 650. Here is a good example why do you use 450 instead of 330? Because it hits harder and does better so now go one more up 650 is too much for the bow thats really all this test proved. The 30 years of study is not 650 it’s literally finding the heaviest that you are happy with that your bow can shoot and handle for your situations. No one ever said you need 650.
@@donmcbean7465 diminishing return happens when the bow reaches beyond its maximum potential. My vertical bow is 700 grains. It does not generate anymore slugs of moment than 650 but loses its speed ridiculously. My crossbow 600 is diminishing 565 is just at its max.
@@donmcbean7465 yes i use chronograph and it also determines the ke and calculators have been super accurate for me. They have been spot on and matched the chrono so i would have to trust that they are accurate with momentum too.
@@donmcbean7465 now i will say too that neither weapon is compound they are both recurves. A compound will have different results especially since the recurve is only 50lb draw vertical and 200 lb draw crossbow. So it is possible a compound with high poundage would definitely be in your speculations possibly. Some people ignore the kinetic energy machine and i do not think that is fully fair for tests on the heavy or light “debate”.
Kind of a tough one, I prefer a lighter arrow for a flatter trajectory and higher speed. Sneaking through limbs and shooting under a low canopy. But I could see the penetration benefit of a heavier arrow depending on the target. Like how a bucket of gravel can stop a bullet but won’t stop an arrow. Not going too see huge differences between the arrows because it’s not like you are changing the amount of energy released from the bow, just how efficiently it transfers to the arrow. Differences of a couple %. Lighter arrow can only take so much energy before the rest of the energy is dissipated through the bow, but the heavier arrow doesn't get as high of results with equal amount energy transferred to the arrow.
I’m disabled and I shoot a 370 crossbow with pile driver bolts/ arrows with 125 grain Thorn Rift 2.2 inch cut unexposed blade until impact mechanical broadhead and it shoots them like darts and I don’t shoot for shoulder I try to shoot the crease so to speak and i believe my basic set up is about as deadly as possible considering !
It sounds like you had your mind made up before you made the video. Shoot what you like and everyone else can shoot what they like. Hunters need to stop arguing with each other.
This isn’t a knock against your test. Just an observation. The only way anyone can come close to simulating an animal would be to devise a way to lubricate the arrow all the way through the test medium from the instant it penetrates the skin as you built it. I would be interested to see the results of that type of test.
Penetration differences negligible. Trajectory at distance significantly different. Speed significantly different. Seems like you need to pick your arrow weight based on the KE needed for the animal being hunted. Go as light as uou can to achieve the KE needed for the game being hunted. You don’t need a super heavy arrow to get the job done.
Great video Joe! I just wonder how much resistance your getting on the shaft with the insulation board and cardboard only because I've used insulation and cardboard to make a target for target practice. And something else at 450gn arrow is getting towards a heavier setup I would like to see a similar test with a 350gn arrow and a 450gn arrow. Thanks for taking the time to set all this up.
My question is why your results are different from mine … when I shoot heavier arrows into my targets designed to stop an arrow they punch through and the lighter arrows stop short…???
Exactly. You have to have consistent media to shoot into. Every time I hear that old "you can't shoot foam" I just shake my head. It don't matter what you are shooting as long as it's the same.
Thanks for the test guys, definitely valuable information was gained. The one important factor that I believe this test missed was the fact that once bone is breached it doesn't continue to be a major cause of friction with the arrow; however, breaching the bone does absorb a lot of energy from the arrow. The 450 grain arrow more than likely may not have the energy left to keep penetrating after transferring it's energy to the bone; whereas, the 650 grain arrow more than likely will have plenty of energy to continue penetrating through vital organs. Plywood, although a consistent medium that might replicate the thickness and strength of a deer rib or scapula, subjects the arrow to unrealistic continuous friction on the shaft of the arrow. As evidenced by the test, the medium used was enough to stop both arrows, and we know that a real animal would have sustained a full pass through in both cases. Just my thoughts on the subject, and I don't know of any reliable way to test my theory other than shoot a ton of animals with both setups in real life circumstances. P.S. currently shooting 490 grain TAW myself.
There is a study that consisted of well over 1000 animals shot. That study concluded that a heavy high FOC arrow outperformed a lighter one on a consistent basis.
It’s all about finding balance between trajectory and weight. Find an arrow that works with your bow to give you an acceptable trajectory while still maintaining adequate weight and FOC. For me that’s a 475-500 grain arrow, for others it might be more or less.
I shoot a 400gr arrow on the money and get a pass through on large Midwest bucks with a rage hypodermic even at 38&40 YRDS ON TWO 5 1/2 YR OLD 250LB BUCKS. I don’t have to worry about missing or wounding my deer if I misjudge distance by a couple yards!!! THANK YOU!!! I will stick with my 400gr arrow at 300fps!!!!
Thats fine as long as you shoot the soft stuff mid rib cage shoot the v and if you hit something your light arrow will stop dead I've shot the lightest up to 700 gr out of 60 and 70 lb bows and taken many deer with both but light arrows and big mechanical always stop on heavier bones 400 and under in my experience have no business in the hunting community 450 and up has proven to be more effective
The best test you can do is shoot your 20 yard pin at 30 yards. Pretty easy to be 10 yards off either direction occasionally. The most forgiving arrow is the one that will hit closest to its mark.
Enjoyed the video. I was just curious if you were shooting different spine arrows I know they were the same diameter and length. I can’t wrap my mind around not having to change either your tune or spine to make up the 200 grain difference
How is it a fairy tail it’s proven to work and get more pass throughs……a target block is not a deer….neither is ballistic gel…..they are both literally made to stop the object…..shoot it at an animal carcass, and THEN compare them….it’s in the films kids…..your twizzler sticks are always hanging out of the animal 90%…..you can watch heavy arrows PASS THROUGH 99% of the time……tell me which is going to make more blood quicker? Hmm…..
Are You sure the heavier setup was flying well? Just looking at the paper tears it appears to be tearing knock low and left? Looking at the velocity numbers at the yardages don't make sense with the heavier setup? This could be very miss leading in both trajectory and penetration testing if the arrow is under spined and or not flying correctly? Thanks for taking the time to do this testing!
Any possibility of repeating the penetration test but replacing the wood slats with a rack of pork ribs, and multiple shots for each weight to account for any randomness? Theory is that any really stiff target isn’t going to open up when penetrated and will put a lot of friction on the shaft of the arrow. Really interesting stuff. You also did a great job talking about the other factors that come into play besides penetration
Man we have shot through almost every possible medium including Pork Scapulas and the results are the same….math shows the heavy arrow should penetrate a little better but we haven’t seen it
Some food for thought - the extra vertical height of a slower arrow equates to extra vertical speed at impact. This makes shots much less forgiving when it comes to range estimation. Slower arrow range tolerances are smaller. I whipped up a calculator this morning. An arrow it’s a velocity of 240 ft/s aimed using the 60 yard pin on a target at 58 yards will be off by 3.6 inches. A 280 fps bow will only be off 2.7 inches. The rule of thumb is 1 in groups per 10 yards, so at 60, good archers shoot a 6 in group. Then, add 2.7 high or low depending on if your range is short or long, and you end up at 11.4 inches. Kill zone on a deer is about 12 inches… for the slower bow, at the same range, the radius is 13.2. Bottom line: you need higher range precision with a slower bow. On fixed targets, that’s no big deal. In the real world, with mobile animals, it can make all the difference.
I appreciate the work you put in for this! It’s an interesting debate. Rather than give my reasons for the heavier arrows, can you do a short video explaining why YOU think the Ashby report is wrong about penetration? Based on this video, I would think Dr. Ashby was doing his experiments on a different planet and that everything we were taught in 8th grade science was a lie.
I don’t think the Ashby report is “wrong”…..what I have seen is KE plays a bigger roll in penetration than they think (speed really matters more than they discuss) and I am not a fan of drawing penetration results from shooting a dead Buffalo over and over again as that data is 100% flawed as the arrow hits different and different body parts each time. An arrow with higher KE and Higher Momentum by our “8th grade” science should penetrate better with all other things equal….but I do not see momentum or FOC as leading factors of penetration…..that is my testing and several others guys I have talked with about this that have millions of $$ worth of equipment to do lab type testing on….not these backyard test like mine that are seen on RUclips. Anyway appreciate the comment and you checking out the video.
I would have killed my chronograph for sure!
This is the best video I’ve seen on the subject. You completely changed my mind on the subject. The penetration was 6 of 1 and 1/2 a dozen of the other. But, the trajectory at distance, and the speed is what swayed me over to the lighter arrow. Good job.
I don't even hunt but thought this was a real good test for those who do. Well done sir !!
Pretty comprehensive test, I especially appreciate that you used the paper jig to plot the trajectory at different distances. That plays a pretty significant factor if you find yourself wanting to take a shot at 30 yards or more.
No issues with the methodology of the test or the composition of the target. Perfectly sound.
The amount of energy that the bow delivers is a function of the stiffness of the limbs, the draw length (which determines how much the limbs are flexed), and the efficiency of the cam system. As none of these factors change with arrow mass, the "muzzle energy" is constant. It is that energy that determines penetration, so we expect "point blank" shots to penetrate the same distance, no matter the mass of the arrow.
What slows an arrow down is air drag, and drag force depends on the square of velocity, so a faster, lighter arrow is losing velocity (and energy) faster than a slower, heavier one. But that velocity advantage means it is covering ground faster, and the short time of flight means it has less time to lose energy, so the drag penalty doesn't hurt it at short ranges.
There exists a range though, beyond which the light arrow has lost enough velocity (and thus energy) such that it now has less energy than the heavier arrow, and the heavier arrow will start to show a penetration advantage, with the magnitude of that advantage based on the mass delta and the range.
The open question is if that range is close-in enough to be of any practical use - especially when one considers the longer time of flight with a slow arrow at long range and the heavily arced trajectory.
At practical shooting ranges, with there being no real difference in penetration, the lighter arrows shorter time of flight and flatter trajectory pay big dividends - just as you concluded.
Where things get interesting is if the bow is NOT the same in each case, ie the heavy arrow is mated to a higher draw weight bow. Shooting the heavy and light arrows at the same muzzle velocity (but no longer the same muzzle energy) means that the heavy arrow gets the same flat trajectory and short time of flight, but penetrates deeper and over a longer range band - at the cost of more effort to draw the bow.
Of course, moving to a heavier bow means that it can shoot the light arrow even faster - so now all we've done is offset the whole curve upwards - although the increased drag with the higher velocity might change the crossover range in a meaningful range. That would make for a fun test to see if it is the case.
There is also a range beyond which the arc of the trajectory is so high that gravity starts to play a part in sustaining velocity - but now we are talking "Battle of Hastings" ranges, not "whitetail hunting" ranges.
Fun stuff!
Love your testing. I applaud your courage to test the speed at long range. I would love to see the penetration test at 60 yards as well.
Best video on this subject I’ve ever seen!
Thanks for taking the time to do this video! Like too see the difference between 400 & 450 grains.
Thanks again
I'd love to see 400 to 450 as well.
The ashby report says 430-450 for whitetail deer just an FYI, loved the video
This was a great test, thanks for pulling it together. Makes me feel very comfortable with my 65-70 lb setup with 448g arrows.
Sounds like anything 25yards or less it dont mean squat to have a heavier arruh..I'd rather be shooting flatter..gimme the 450 and call it a day
The math on this is actually simple. Momentum = mass x velocity. If your arrows are using the bow/string energy efficiently, then a heavier arrow will go a little slower and a lighter arrow a little faster…. Yet both will have roughly identical momentum. That being the case, speed has the overall advantage. Thirty years ago the argument might have had merit. But there have been such advances in technology in every aspect of archery that today, the energy is used very efficiently.
What a time consuming test you’ve done. Very informative results. I do quite a bit of testing myself and can certainly appreciate how much effort you guys put into this!
No foc
@@cray-z7404 Are you saying no FOC in this test or no FOC is needed?
@@justaguy7997 period
fantastic test and video fellas. Thanks for bearing the heat to put this out!!!
Thanks Chad!
Thank you so much for your time and effort in this test. It seems like the speed as a lot more advantageous over all. Plus I have always been a heavy arrow shooter. So thank you for changing my mind!!
All good info! I would like to see this comparing the 450gr(i would not consider that light, that is midweight or some guys would consider it heavy!) versus a 350 grain arrow. I shot 350 grain arrows without really thinking about it for 25 years- basic 400 spine/8.4gpi arrow, stock insert, stock nock, 2" blazers, 100 grain head. Everyone I knew shot essentially the same thing. I changed to a 530 grain setup a few years ago but didnt like the 'rainbow' of the arrow past about 25 yards, I took 50 grains off my setup so shooting 480 grains now which seems to be a nice middle ground as it really flattened it out past 25 yds.
Yep I’m going to test 450 Vs light 350
I've noticed the same with my arrows. Easton Axis 5mm. My 393 grain setup consistently buried deeper than my 446 grain setup.
One of the best video on this topic. For a beginner archer this Was very informative. Thanks for sharing your experience and knowledge. ❤
I just watched a video where a guy put a 450 clean through a scapula, perfect triangular hole through the middle of it, through a lung, through the liver, and out the other side. They’re all going to kill an elk. A heavier arrow isn’t going to kill an elk any better than a lighter arrow if you take a bad shot. The arrow weight horse is dead, everyone stop beating it.
Been in the 450 group for several years…good video.👍🏼
Thank you for taking the time to do this. I shoot 434 gr. @ 65#, 30"DL, and both deer last year were complete passthroughs, with the being a quartering shot through the backbone and coming out just behind the opposite shoulder(I forgot to reset my sight in the heat of the moment, and shot the doe at 24 yds with my sight set at 42 yds from the previous days practice. She was quartering away slighty up hill). If I were shooting a 650 gr arrow, I would have shot a foot over her back. Advantage to the lighter, faster arrow, and that shot was with NAP DK 4 hybrid.
100%….the way I look at it even if the heavy arrows gives you a slight advantage in penetration (which we have not seen) it is not worth the flat shooting faster advantages you gain!
Very, very well done. Huge help. Many thanks. Subscribed!
I’m glad someone finally did this. The debate about arrow weight has become rather ridiculous. The advocates for “Ashby” type weights, rarely if ever discuss trajectory or yardage estimation. Shot placement will always be the most important criteria for determining success, in my opinion. If you do nothing but hunt hogs over feeders at 20 yards, trajectory and yardage estimation are non issues, for the rest of us, these things matter. While preparing for our Cape Buffalo hunt, we played with a lot of different arrow setups. The one we settled on was much lighter than the conventional wisdom would suggest, but we went with what we thought made sense. I settled on a 578 grain, 17% FOC arrow with a single bevel broadhead, arrow speed was 266 fps. Most scoffed at the setup, including the PH’s in Africa. I wish I could post a picture, but the results were surprising. The arrow went completely through the bull, sticking 10 inches out of the opposite side, he made it 20 yards before piling up. I believe a setup that is well balanced between weight and speed will be more effective over a broader range of hunting situations. Thanks for the video, well done.
Ashby literally says to shoot the heaviest arrow with the trajectory you are happy with.
@@Rhyno430 he sure does, but you rarely hear that. So much emphasis is placed on total weight, FOC, and the bone breaking threshold of 650 grain arrows. Personally, I shoot the heaviest arrow I can that gives me 280-300 fps, which is within my acceptable trajectory for hunting
The reason people argue Bone, is because 650 grains is the bone breaking threshold according to the asbee research. This is why you see so many shoulder shots in videos where 95% of the arrow is sticking out of the deer as it runs away! But in addition, the single bevel broadhead also is a factor because they break bone better. Having killed some 25 deer since going down this rabbit hole myself, I can tell you that it does penetrate and break bone better. Also, and equally important though FEW people ever talk about it, the heavy arrow make the bow quieter, and the slower arrow makes less noise going through the air, and research has shown that deer are not jumping the string, but rather jumping the sound of the arrow going toward it as evidenced with slow motion footage of multiple deer in field but only the one being shot at doing the massive ducking.
Thank you for the comment and taking the time to watch the video….I personally believe KE pays a larger role than Momentum when it comes to penetration but question for you. Same size (length and diameter) arrow….one is 450 and shoots at 300 FPS….the other is a 650 and shoots at 150 FPS….which is higher in booth KE and Momentum? Run this equation and let’s talk some more about “weight” being a bench mark…..thanks again!
@UClbxp001BrdRv48dWBYB5Ow might want to rerun your math there Phil on the 450/650 KE on the arrows I tested…..I didn’t say KE was king. You said 650 was the threshold for bone breaking according to the ashbee report (I think you mean Ashby)……if that is the case and you would certainly agree an arrow with more KE and more momentum would penetrate better please go back and also reread my question to you on the 650 and 450 grain arrows at the different SPEEDS I noted. My point here is weight is absolutely not the threshold and lots of guys have been confused and sent down the wrong path with arrow selection.
KE plays a role in the jumping of the string, trajectory etc. Momentum is what determines penetration - simple physics.@@JoeMilesMWT
The target defines the test.
It’s that simple.
there is a guy with a channel called WapitiWear and he has some good tests of shooting heavy bone (fresh elk shoulder )with various weights and broadheads, if anyone is curious about that. You did an awesome job with your testing.
What did u gather from wapitiwears video ?
I appreciate the work that was put in to make this video. BUT, It drives me nuts when penetration tests are done on man made targets. The truth is told when you run it through an animal. 18 years of bow hunting and I'm 1000% convinced the heavier high FOC arrow is the ticket for big game hunting. I shoot a 74#, 30" draw and In the beginning I used 385gr light, fast arrows and I rarely got a pass through on deer. 7-8 years ago I jumped up to 470gr arrows and getting a pass through became common with the arrow sticking in the dirt a couple inches. Early 2022 I beefed up to a 540gr arrow with 14.9% FOC and last fall I buried the arrow 6-7" in the dirt after a steep quartering away pass through on a mature buck. The arrow entered high, very back of the rib cage and came out the opposite armpit. The sound it made when the arrow hit that buck was a very noticeable, different, more violent sound. A pass through would have been unlikely with my previous arrows. The real world results are more than enough for me.
How do you get consistent data from shooting an animal as every single shot hits different…..it’s impossible. That is the big issue for us hunters, what we need and want to test on is impossible to test on so you have to do the next best thing…..if we want to talk about shooting animals and modern results with modern equipment need to look at guys that shoot lots and lots of stuff each year not 2-3 deer….guys like Dave Holt and Joel Maxfield…Dave shoots over 150 animals a year in Africa and is sponsored by no one….he shoots a 450 grain arrow…..why is that? Why would a technical bow junkie that has studied this stuff for 40 years and shoots modern equipment do this working for a culling/meat operation, only getting paid for killing results…….Because of trajectory and speed and still having plenty of penetration. Anyway glad you are having success with your setup…best of luck to you and thanks for the comment and watching the video.
Awesome job guys! I did a tone of testing this summer myself and same results, ,
Thanks! Yep very eye opening.
Good stuff Joe, I’m shooting 500gr 70lb 30” and am very pleased
This is the test I’ve been waiting for. I’ve always went for a lighter arrow and more speed because I’ve always felt I got better performance. And this just proved my point. The kinetic energy difference is 5ftlbs. SPEED KILLS!
YUP,. A very GOOD,. Test !
I'll STAY with my Lighter,.. FAST, Arrows !
When you’re hunting, it’s not like a deer stops and let’s you range it, turns broad side and you get a clean shot. So if your trajectory is only off @4”in between a 20 & 30yd shot, that’s a lot of forgiveness in the vitals. I’ll take a straighter flight and more forgiveness then a looping shot hoping I got the yardage right! All my opinion of course…
Great info. !!
The penetration test changed my mind- I'll stick to my 454gr. ...
Speaking as an engineer, you are missing a whole aspect to your test. What is the penetration difference at 20, 30, 40, and 60 yds. I will tell you, mathematically, the heavier arrow surpasses the lighter arrow at some point. The lighter arrow will slow down faster. You could also go to the extreme and go really light vs heavy. A better test is the spine of the arrow. A more flexible arrow with a poor balance will deflect more at impact. A well tuned bow makes a huge difference. If the back of the arrow is not directly behind the front of the arrow you will experience deflection on impact. Have you ever had an arrow crooked in a target?
Great testing guys !!
I have read and seen studies done on impact of lite and heavy shafts.
Lite shafts slow down at a greater pace, which I guess really doesn't matter because they start out
going faster to begin with.
I have read that the heavier shaft retains more energy down range, making them a better choice
If you encounter bone.
Would like to see the penetration test at 60 yards
Great test, thank you. I have seen a few others, and these results keep happening. Everyone is quite surprised. I think speed is important, think of a pneumatic concrete nailer vs hitting the concrete nail with a hammer. The hammer can produce more force, but the shock impact of the 22 cartridge allows it to embed in the concrete.
Not to be a hater, i love these videos always chasing some elusive truth or myth. One thing im gonna mention is if you arent getting complete pass through with a 70 bow with a 2 blade fixed broadhead, your analog is way too resilient and something may be causing fiction, perhaps that is the boards and the arrows tend to punch through and really suffer a lot of friction as the shaft follows through. As another comment had mentions maybe finding something that is hard but fracters unpon impact allowing clean arrow travel through it. Anyways great work and thank you!
This was a wonderful video/test. I would have to say the best one ive ever seen done...well done and great effort put in to this..thank you. Now with all that being said, i have to admit, ive seen time and time again people shooting whitetails on hunting videos right in the sweet spot(right behind the shoulder) broadside at 20 yards and under only get half of the arrow or less than half penatrating into the deer? Really i believe what they are considering light is not the same as what you guys are considering light.
Good test , nice to see the lighter wait bow speeds and penatration test .helps to deside on what arrow to get for lighter weight
A 450 grain arrow is a nice medium weight arrow and gives a good balance of all aspects.
the one thing I would be interested in seeing is what is the penetration difference at the 60 yards
That would probably be in favor of the heavier arrow. As the heavier arrow will retain more of what it has compared to the lighter arrow.
I think the same but if your going to do short penetration test should do a long to see how they compare
In theory the difference should be magnified considering that the heavy arrow is moving 40fps slower at that distance. Kinetic energy > momentum. My bet would be the light arrow penetrates 2-3 inches more.
@@titansfan2104 it's 40 fps slower.. I don't think it would but be cool to see. It's nice y9 see a test with everything the same or as close as possible
Dear Joe miles just finished watching your video on heavy vs. Light, love your content, would also like to say I heard you talkin about you wanting an arrow that is great for whitetail hunting, I've been hunting with archery equipment for close to thirty-five years I used Mathews bows and I currently have a vxr 28 in also have a Mathews z7 which I hunted deer for quite a few years with but my setup is always been the same I use a 402 grain arrow nap 100 grain spitfire that has been my broadhead of choice for at least the last 27 and I say that because I believe I bought them back in the early 90s and I've had so much success with those type of broadheads I will not change to any other brand there is accurate as your field points I know this because all I do is screw my broadhead on and make sure it is tuned to my fletching and I can literally hit the same spot or right next to it within a quarter inch of my field and I love that because I don't have to worry about all that fixed-blade broadhead tuning crap , I can be hunting within minutes with a broadhead after removing my field. Keep up the scientific work love the stuff.
50 yds or 150 ft: (150 ft ÷ 250 fps) − (150 ft ÷ 280 fps) = .064 sec. An arrow traveling at 250 fps vs 280 fps and the time they take to arrive at 50 yds... slightly more than HALF OF ONE TENTH of a second difference in arrival time AT FIFTY YARDS.
What were the arrow setups for the weight changes? Were you using a stiffer spine for the increased weight up front and the changing dynamic spine? Did you tune the bow for each arrow setup? Or were your arrows flying poorly with some of the arrows? A few physics formulas (drag, ballistic coefficient, momentum) prove the idea that heavy arrows maintain velocity down range. Several people have tested this while tuning the bow to every arrow setup. There's actually a few youtube videos showing it.
Sure looked like bullet holes in the paper to me
Great video man. I think one of the biggest problems in this whole debate is what the definition of a light arrow is and what the definition of a heavy arrow is. I think 450 grains is more of a midweight arrow, and 650 grains is an extreme heavy weight Arrow. Everybody's definition is a little bit different. I think you would see way different results if you shot a 320 grain Arrow versus a 520 grain Arrow but I'm never 100% sure of anything! Again great video
Here’s something to think about. It takes 437 grains to make 1 ounce. 1 ounce!!! People think 1/2 ounce moving 50 fps slower is going to penetrate more based on weight? I don’t think so. This video lines up with what I’ve been thinking. Make sure everything is tuned well and your arow is flying perfect and you have a good broadhead
Thank you for doing this. I appreciate the time and effort you put into it. Something seems off to me. Speed deprivation is real and a lighter object decelerates faster than a heavier one which at distance can be an issue. As for the penetration, that is thought provoking for sure.
I’m no rocket scientist but I would think anything with more FOC such as shooting a deer and hitting femur bone with 100gr broadhead versus hitting deer in femur with 150gr broadhead the heavier broadhead would definitely be more devastating and more penetration in my book !
Don’t shoot the femur…solves that problem.
Great video and great job testing
This is a fascinating debate. I can't remember the last time I shot a deer over 20 yards in Minnesota or Wisconsin. At whitetail deer ranges, how much of a factor is speed or trajectory? I hunt primarily in the timber and shoot most of my deer in the morning. They aren't nervously feeding in a food plot and my bow isn't as noisy as what I hear people shooting on the hunting shows. Some of this debate is due to self-inflicted wounds - where a person is shooting a dull or wide-cut expandable broadhead, because they can't tune their bow, and their arrow is failing on rib bones. By the way, 450 grains is not the "light" arrow that people are using - dip down around the 385 grain range and test again.
450 grains is 50 grains lighter than what the Ashby report recommends for whitetails.
@@Killada3pt I cited 450 grains because that is the "light" arrow used by Joe Miles in his video. Most people using light arrows are below 400 grains, which is why I suggested using a 385 grain arrow as Joe's light arrow representative rather that 450 grains.
@@h-minus2212 And ALL of this heavy vs light BS is based on the Ashby reports. And they say 500 minimum for whitetails. So for the purpose of the comparison, 450 is light, particularly out of the setup he used.
thank you for this test it seems to prove that you would need to shoot the heavy and light arrows at the same speed in order to see a greater penetration with the heavier arrow. The fact that when the speed slows down with the heavy arrow it takes away some of the penetration which shows that if you shoot a heavier arrow you also need to up the poundage and draw length in order to maintain speed then for sure we would see the diffs There is so much running around with the heavy arrow stories lately but as you as many others are proving theres no real benefit except if you up the speed on the heavy arrow setup.I would say that a decent fixed blade with a reasonable f.o.c will do the job well
Thanks for taking time to do this. As you can see from some of the comments on this video, some people will keep finding some sort of excuse why your test isn’t valid but I think you did as much of a real world test as possible. Great work.
Yeah I tried to prevent as much of that as I could but man this is so debating and people are in one camp or the other and no one likes to be wrong including me and I would have bet the heavy would have done better but in all my testing it just doesn’t
Isnt absolutely perfect
I deal with testing technical rescue equipment and systems and the debates about testing methodology, while frustrating sometimes, is what drives the industry forward. The multitude of variables is what makes it difficult and by sharing testing ideas the backyard testers are getting better. I do agree with others that your test medium is not ideal but it is a step forward from steel drums. So thank you for making us all better. I am fascinated with the speed/weight debate. No one argues
That a 470 nitro has more knockdown power than a 308 even if it’s slower. I wouldn’t hunt whitetail with it but I wouldn’t hunt whitetail with a 17HMR either. No matter how flat it shoots.
That arch though at distance on a heavy arrow would be outrageously unwise if your shooting in the woods, you’d be clipping leaves and branches all day
Another good video. I can't tell you how many commenters have said that my setup is too light for any penetration especially if I hit bone and it's just not true. I easily blow through whitetails with a light arrow at 315fps and it breaks ribs and shoulders with ease. I wouldn't use this set-up if it didn't work so well. I don't understand the heavy arrow fans with high foc. The trajectory is terrible. I used to shoot heavy arrows with high foc back when we didn't have much of a choice and I would never go back to that. I use one pin 0-40 yards and at 40 I put the pin 3/4 up on the deers body. I like the simplicity of one pin. Nothing cluttering my view and no confusion during the moment of truth
Yes sir!
I shoot 497gr, use 1 pin at 30 meters.
We hunt mainly hogs.
If i use 600 or 700 gr arrow its just be better.
If you want to argue factors like trajectory, speed degradation, etc on the topic fine. There is no argument however that heavy arrows penetrate better balanced with higher FOC, single bevel broadheads, and properly tuned, than a lighter arrow without those factors. Virtually everyone at this point is familiar with the Ashby reports by name at this point. I find few people have actuallty read through the data collected. For starters Dr. Ashby states numerous times to use the heaviest arrow that has a trajectory you find suitable. Arrow weight is but one of 12 very important factors even though that's always what the argument comes down to. The science and data backs up that an arrow that checks all 12 of those boxes will hands down out penetrate any arrow setup that doesn't but certainly a light arrow shooting a mechanical broadhead with mid-low FOC.
Kudos to you sir. I have never drank the uber heavy arrow kool-aide when it comes to a modern compound bow. The simple fact of the matter is this. A bow of a certain poundage, draw length, brace height, etc, is going to impart a consistent amount of energy to an arrow fired from it. You can vary the weight all you want but a slower 650 grain arrow is going to be imparted with basically the same amount of kinetic energy as the faster 450 grain arrow. The numbers may not line up perfectly but the difference will not be anything worth the loss of arrow speed.
Your awesome video pretty much runs true with my real-world hunting tests. I'm shooting a 31" 460-grain arrow (125-grain broadhead) with a 29" dl at 67lbs getting 468 fps at 10 yards. I've considered dropping back down to a 100-grain head. I've had very good results at around 440 grains as well with pass-throughs in the sweet spot.
What are u shooting that's sending arrows 468 fps ?
I would like to know what bow as well. It will be my next one.
Its not about the arrow being heaver. Its about the weight being in the front/broadhead so it drags the arrow through .
Yes yes I made it very clear in the video FOC would be mentioned by someone…the heavier arrow had more FOC so why didn’t it do better?
Higher FOC translates into more kinetic energy loss down range due to slower arrow recovery and a larger cross wind signature. Increasing your FOC will hurt you significantly at long range.
@@JoeMilesMWT 14% FOC ain’t nothing. Bump it on up over 20%
If the arrows were moving the same speed, the heavier object would produce more kinetic energy. But a heavier arrow moves slower out of a bow that is set to a specific, unchanging setup than a lighter one. His was a 29 inch draw length with a 70lb draw weight I believe. At that setting, a 450gr arrow would produce approx. 84 lb-ft of kinetic energy. A 650gr arrow would produce approx. 72 lb-ft. Every different bow setup has a sweet spot where it's capable of producing the most kinetic energy possible by firing a arrow that weighs a certain amount. His sweet spot is right around 450gr. This would be modeled but going lighter, say a 350gr arrow. It would be screaming along, should do the best right? But with his setup it would be making around 80-81 lb-ft of kinetic energy and not penetrate as well as the 450gr arrow. Lighter arrows go faster, heavier arrows go slower, out of a bow that's doing the exact same thing every time. The trick is finding the optimal weight of arrow, to match up with the force your bow is capable of making, therefore producing the most kinetic energy possible. That equals penetration.
You answered your own question when you said "we know a mechanical wont penetrate as well as a fixed" but yet in your target it did. Your medium isnt even close to what a live animal is. Your test proved the medium you chose is good at stopping arrows period. You cant defy Newton. I do appreciate the effort. With all that said 450gn arrow is an excellent whitetail arrow and will get the job done if you do your part.
You do realize shooting into a consistent medium is the only way to actually test arrows in this situation.
Yes, but a it has to be a very similar medium to real life scenario. I’m not sold on their medium, mainly the insulation and plywood, but I’m glad they did this. You can shoot a 300gr arrow and a 1200gr into a cinder block or 1” thick rubber mat medium and probably get the same very low penetration for both. But those results point more towards those mediums being very good at stopping an arrow than what arrow weight would actually penetrate a deer.
100% man, the test is bollocks to be honest.
Wheeewwwww. What a relief. I guess I can keep killing elk with my 390gr arrows 🏹🏹🏹🏹
Great test. Great information
Honestly I’ve always used lighter arrows for my he speed and have always wondered the difference and now I know that speed is better
These comments are entertaining! I commend you for your efforts on this video, it is well done. I’m curious in one factor that affects penetration, movement. Devise a way to make a target drop at the sound of the shot and see how it affects penetration at 30yds with each of these test arrows. I’ve got a few ideas on how to make this happen. Then compare penetration to a stationary target as well. I think your medium just needs to be ballistics gel covered in hide. My theory is that at the moment of broadhead contact, the heavier arrow flight will be less affected resulting in more penetration. FWIW, I shoot a 469gr arrow.
Have a good one!
-Jon
Please do this with a 360gr arrow
Can you try the penetration test at 60 yards and see
I've found anything over 500 grains the penitration is marginal. I elk hunt so I'll stay around 500g, 460g is considered as light as you need to go for elk, moose etc along with a single bevel broad head. 6 bulls in the last 12 yrs proved this for me. Great test and was done as well as possible, thanks. Your 470 would be considered a great weight out west
Thanks for a informative video
I shoot Easton axis 5mm match grade 340 spine. 60# at 28.5 inches and I shoot a mathews v3x 29. The grain weigh is 430. And I get great speed. And they are tuff arrows.
23:10: yeah you might have gained some more… and stop calling us Shirley
great video
I'm at the explanation of the penetration test media and I can tell you now what will happen before he ever shoots an arrow. The plywood will not break out like bone will. It will create so much drag on the shaft that you won't see a measurable difference in penetration. I'm sure he shoots field points too! This is yet another test that means nothing.
It would be interesting to know if it's really more important to have FOC in your build than heavy weight, and some of the assumptions about increased penetration actually come from the fact that you're more likely to gain FOC as your weight goes up? I shoot trad( morrison max 5 super curve, 57lb @ 30") and I just dropped from a 730 grain arrow down to a 550 grain arrow...and I'm seeing better penetration into the medium that I practice on as well. I know the math shouldn't bear this out...but..
I really appreciate your efforts on these tests.
There are some things to note though.
650 with a high FOC is what matters 30% or something. Now this is just the study of breaking bone with single bevel 650 doesn’t care about bones.
Getting that to fly good and such obviously matters which you guys did.
But this science is a lot to take in.
Its not about 650. Its about finding the heaviest that your bow can shoot optimally. People get stuck on the grains. 450 with a fixed head will penetrate absolutely you are going about 0.5 slugs of momentum or so and do not waste energy in opening blades. I would sincerely encourage you to do the test again with the heaviest setup that your bow can handle. Go into the 500-600 grains so do this again with 500, 525, 550, 560, 575 and 600 and also use your 450 as a guide one of these 500 series will out perform your 450 guaranteed.
450 though is a good penetrator with fixed heads. I would not recommend mechanical even though they will kill they may not always pass through.
Now why 500 series instead of the 600 because not every bow handles it well and some bows end up with the diminishing returns.
I can tell you from my own evidence: i have seen arrows bounce off of deer under 50 yards many times and hardly ever have i seen pass through.
I have seen 350 grain crossbow bolts not go through deer at 40 yards.
My own evidence 350 on a target was a few inch penetration. 415 was half shaft 565 is fletchings buried in she target there is most certainly a benefit to heavy but heavy doesn’t mean 650. Here is a good example why do you use 450 instead of 330?
Because it hits harder and does better so now go one more up 650 is too much for the bow thats really all this test proved. The 30 years of study is not 650 it’s literally finding the heaviest that you are happy with that your bow can shoot and handle for your situations. No one ever said you need 650.
@@donmcbean7465 diminishing return happens when the bow reaches beyond its maximum potential. My vertical bow is 700 grains. It does not generate anymore slugs of moment than 650 but loses its speed ridiculously.
My crossbow 600 is diminishing 565 is just at its max.
@@donmcbean7465 yes i use chronograph and it also determines the ke and calculators have been super accurate for me. They have been spot on and matched the chrono so i would have to trust that they are accurate with momentum too.
@@donmcbean7465 now i will say too that neither weapon is compound they are both recurves. A compound will have different results especially since the recurve is only 50lb draw vertical and 200 lb draw crossbow. So it is possible a compound with high poundage would definitely be in your speculations possibly.
Some people ignore the kinetic energy machine and i do not think that is fully fair for tests on the heavy or light “debate”.
Thank you. Just thank you.
Kind of a tough one, I prefer a lighter arrow for a flatter trajectory and higher speed. Sneaking through limbs and shooting under a low canopy. But I could see the penetration benefit of a heavier arrow depending on the target. Like how a bucket of gravel can stop a bullet but won’t stop an arrow. Not going too see huge differences between the arrows because it’s not like you are changing the amount of energy released from the bow, just how efficiently it transfers to the arrow. Differences of a couple %. Lighter arrow can only take so much energy before the rest of the energy is dissipated through the bow, but the heavier arrow doesn't get as high of results with equal amount energy transferred to the arrow.
I’m disabled and I shoot a 370 crossbow with pile driver bolts/ arrows with 125 grain Thorn Rift 2.2 inch cut unexposed blade until impact mechanical broadhead and it shoots them like darts and I don’t shoot for shoulder I try to shoot the crease so to speak and i believe my basic set up is about as deadly as possible considering !
It sounds like you had your mind made up before you made the video. Shoot what you like and everyone else can shoot what they like. Hunters need to stop arguing with each other.
This isn’t a knock against your test. Just an observation. The only way anyone can come close to simulating an animal would be to devise a way to lubricate the arrow all the way through the test medium from the instant it penetrates the skin as you built it. I would be interested to see the results of that type of test.
Penetration differences negligible. Trajectory at distance significantly different. Speed significantly different. Seems like you need to pick your arrow weight based on the KE needed for the animal being hunted. Go as light as uou can to achieve the KE needed for the game being hunted. You don’t need a super heavy arrow to get the job done.
Do this same test but test the penetration at 60 yards. This is beyond most hunting appications i know.
Great video Joe! I just wonder how much resistance your getting on the shaft with the insulation board and cardboard only because I've used insulation and cardboard to make a target for target practice. And something else at 450gn arrow is getting towards a heavier setup I would like to see a similar test with a 350gn arrow and a 450gn arrow. Thanks for taking the time to set all this up.
or a 550 grain arrow at correct spine. As Dr Ed said - in black and white - shoot the heaviest arrow with a trajectory you happy with.
My question is why your results are different from mine … when I shoot heavier arrows into my targets designed to stop an arrow they punch through and the lighter arrows stop short…???
Exactly. You have to have consistent media to shoot into. Every time I hear that old "you can't shoot foam" I just shake my head. It don't matter what you are shooting as long as it's the same.
Where did the “heavy” arrow come from? The folks hunting places like Africa?
Thanks for the test guys, definitely valuable information was gained. The one important factor that I believe this test missed was the fact that once bone is breached it doesn't continue to be a major cause of friction with the arrow; however, breaching the bone does absorb a lot of energy from the arrow. The 450 grain arrow more than likely may not have the energy left to keep penetrating after transferring it's energy to the bone; whereas, the 650 grain arrow more than likely will have plenty of energy to continue penetrating through vital organs. Plywood, although a consistent medium that might replicate the thickness and strength of a deer rib or scapula, subjects the arrow to unrealistic continuous friction on the shaft of the arrow. As evidenced by the test, the medium used was enough to stop both arrows, and we know that a real animal would have sustained a full pass through in both cases. Just my thoughts on the subject, and I don't know of any reliable way to test my theory other than shoot a ton of animals with both setups in real life circumstances.
P.S. currently shooting 490 grain TAW myself.
There is a study that consisted of well over 1000 animals shot. That study concluded that a heavy high FOC arrow outperformed a lighter one on a consistent basis.
It’s all about finding balance between trajectory and weight. Find an arrow that works with your bow to give you an acceptable trajectory while still maintaining adequate weight and FOC. For me that’s a 475-500 grain arrow, for others it might be more or less.
Excellent work
Dr Asby’s very extensive research trumps any of this.
if you shoot a recurve yes
If you can get the arrows to travel the same speed right before impacting the penetration should have a little different results
I shoot a 400gr arrow on the money and get a pass through on large Midwest bucks with a rage hypodermic even at 38&40 YRDS ON TWO 5 1/2 YR OLD 250LB BUCKS. I don’t have to worry about missing or wounding my deer if I misjudge distance by a couple yards!!! THANK YOU!!! I will stick with my 400gr arrow at 300fps!!!!
Thats fine as long as you shoot the soft stuff mid rib cage shoot the v and if you hit something your light arrow will stop dead I've shot the lightest up to 700 gr out of 60 and 70 lb bows and taken many deer with both but light arrows and big mechanical always stop on heavier bones 400 and under in my experience have no business in the hunting community 450 and up has proven to be more effective
The best test you can do is shoot your 20 yard pin at 30 yards. Pretty easy to be 10 yards off either direction occasionally. The most forgiving arrow is the one that will hit closest to its mark.
Well we know which one that would be! Thanks!
Enjoyed the video. I was just curious if you were shooting different spine arrows I know they were the same diameter and length. I can’t wrap my mind around not having to change either your tune or spine to make up the 200 grain difference
For sure different spine arrows
@@JoeMilesMWT have you tested penetration at 40-60 yards? it seems the heavier arrow would have far more energy/penetration down range
Sounds like heavy arrows is more of a "fairy tail" than anything
Lol always has been. Good one though
I see what you did there…
I believe most people that are serious about arrow weight are not talking about 450 and up they are talking 400 and down the speed arrows
You mean a ranch fairy tale?
How is it a fairy tail it’s proven to work and get more pass throughs……a target block is not a deer….neither is ballistic gel…..they are both literally made to stop the object…..shoot it at an animal carcass, and THEN compare them….it’s in the films kids…..your twizzler sticks are always hanging out of the animal 90%…..you can watch heavy arrows PASS THROUGH 99% of the time……tell me which is going to make more blood quicker? Hmm…..
What is the spine on both?
Durability is King! How many times could you shoot the light arrow before it needs to be repaired?
Accuracy is King…period the end
Are You sure the heavier setup was flying well? Just looking at the paper tears it appears to be tearing knock low and left? Looking at the velocity numbers at the yardages don't make sense with the heavier setup? This could be very miss leading in both trajectory and penetration testing if the arrow is under spined and or not flying correctly? Thanks for taking the time to do this testing!
Would be good to see a 400 gn or less just to maybe discount it all together
Agree….I’m going to do that next off season
@@JoeMilesMWT I'd love to see that and a penetration test down range 40+
I just weighed my arrows, all about 380 grains. I should do fine.
Penetration on live animals can not replicate any test you have done …!!!
Any possibility of repeating the penetration test but replacing the wood slats with a rack of pork ribs, and multiple shots for each weight to account for any randomness? Theory is that any really stiff target isn’t going to open up when penetrated and will put a lot of friction on the shaft of the arrow. Really interesting stuff. You also did a great job talking about the other factors that come into play besides penetration
Man we have shot through almost every possible medium including Pork Scapulas and the results are the same….math shows the heavy arrow should penetrate a little better but we haven’t seen it
Wrestling jello 😂, nicely done imho
Some food for thought - the extra vertical height of a slower arrow equates to extra vertical speed at impact. This makes shots much less forgiving when it comes to range estimation. Slower arrow range tolerances are smaller. I whipped up a calculator this morning. An arrow it’s a velocity of 240 ft/s aimed using the 60 yard pin on a target at 58 yards will be off by 3.6 inches. A 280 fps bow will only be off 2.7 inches. The rule of thumb is 1 in groups per 10 yards, so at 60, good archers shoot a 6 in group. Then, add 2.7 high or low depending on if your range is short or long, and you end up at 11.4 inches. Kill zone on a deer is about 12 inches… for the slower bow, at the same range, the radius is 13.2.
Bottom line: you need higher range precision with a slower bow. On fixed targets, that’s no big deal. In the real world, with mobile animals, it can make all the difference.
I appreciate the work you put in for this!
It’s an interesting debate.
Rather than give my reasons for the heavier arrows, can you do a short video explaining why YOU think the Ashby report is wrong about penetration?
Based on this video, I would think Dr. Ashby was doing his experiments on a different planet and that everything we were taught in 8th grade science was a lie.
I don’t think the Ashby report is “wrong”…..what I have seen is KE plays a bigger roll in penetration than they think (speed really matters more than they discuss) and I am not a fan of drawing penetration results from shooting a dead Buffalo over and over again as that data is 100% flawed as the arrow hits different and different body parts each time. An arrow with higher KE and Higher Momentum by our “8th grade” science should penetrate better with all other things equal….but I do not see momentum or FOC as leading factors of penetration…..that is my testing and several others guys I have talked with about this that have millions of $$ worth of equipment to do lab type testing on….not these backyard test like mine that are seen on RUclips. Anyway appreciate the comment and you checking out the video.