650 vs 450 grain TEST #2 - 40 Yard Trajectory
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- Опубликовано: 3 окт 2024
- New shooters join me to test 650 vs 450 grains, zeroed at 40 BUT shoot 45 as if you misjudged the yardage by 5 yards.
Test #1 434 grains vs 650 grains at 40 yards: click here: • 650 vs 434 grain 40 Ya...
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Nothing but appreciation for the work you are putting in here. Thank you so much for being a rational logical human.
You cant please everbody. All the negative comments i see on Troy's videos either miss the point all together or dont really watch the any of his videos. He is putting content out to try and help us regular bowhunters kill more stuff and do it more efficiently. And yet everybody criticizes everything he does.
Oh it's not that bad. There are piles of people who do pay attention! Some people don't like their apple cart upset with the testing.
Troy, thanks for taking the time, energy and patience to do these experiments. They are important to the bow hunting community.
The affect of point weight and FOC on arrow trajectory by Grizzly Stik is a good video on this same topic. Thanks for your testing!
Lots of fun. Thanks again. Was great to witness the results for myself.
By the way. Make a many comments about my form as you want. 99% of the comments will be wrong. The other 1% I'll learn something from... (hopefully) haha. Thanks again, Troy.
🏹🎯👍
Bow hunting to me is getting as close to an animal as possible and making a lethal shot. Being close allows for the heavy arrow to do its job. Good to know it is still lethal at longer distances. I'll be elk hunting with a 675-grain arrow this fall and have total confidence in its ability. Keep spreading the fairy dust!
That's because you are an actual bow hunter. I live "out west" in Washington state. I'm so sick of hating people say...
"I can't shoot them heavy arrows, cuz I need 80 yards for hunting out west."
No you don't. If that's how you hunt, you should definitely work on your skill set as a hunter. Or pick up a rifle.
@@PersonalBestOutdoorsI’d love to see you come on down to Arizona and show me how you can get closer than 80 yards on some coues deer.
@progradepainting3755 Pay my way, and I would be happy to show you. Tutoring ain't cheap these days, my friend.
If Doc Ashby can kill rhinos from 17 yards AND 7 FEET!!! You can put in the hour and a half or longer stalk, moving painstakingly slow to creep up on a deer. Give it a go. You've got nothing to lose, amigo. Other than another stalk on an elusive animal. But the pursuit is the fun part anyway. At least in my mind.
I haven't always used heavy arrows. Nor have I always recovered game I've shot.
But what I have learned... taking the extra hour it takes to get close, and shoot an efficient arrow made for killing... I've recovered everything I've shot since porting in the effort. Plus, a one hour stalk with a solid hit gets me home sooner than an 80 yard bad hit that turned into a 4 hour recovery. But what do I know. I'm just an uneducated tree climber.
Good luck this season.
@@PersonalBestOutdoors I’m not paying you for jack squat. I’m born and raised here, and watched every personality with varying degrees of bowhunting skill, try every method in the book to get as close as possible to our deer. It’s not a matter of a painstakingly slow stalk, that’s a given with any deer, it’s a matter of the terrain completely blocking you from getting any closer. When the buck you’re after is cliffed out on a ridge across a vertical canyon on all sides, where you stand, is where have to shoot from, or you’re going home empty handed, it’s that simple. Other times they’re completely out in the open, and there is no sneaking, because you can see them, and they can see you, the whole time, so you better be able to take the furthest shot you can when the opportunity finally arises. Other times they’re imbedded in cats claw and cholla cactus so thick, you can’t take one step without getting thousands of stickers in you. I’d love to see you painstakingly crawl through that shit to get your skilled 40 yard shot. Lastly, comparing Ashby hunting rhinos out of a damn half buried concrete blind over water, is a far cry from a spot and stalk bow hunt for the most wary whitetail species on earth, in the desert hills of Arizona. So yeah, I call bullshit on your claims.
@progradepainting3755 wow. So aggressive in your response. Is there no way to have an intellectual conversation amongst two individuals with differing opinions in your world?
Cliffs are a different story. I would argue unless it's a "once in a lifetime deer" that I would probably pursue a different animal.
In the open is easy. If you've never given yourself the opportunity to give it a go, I wouldn't expect you to understand. Yes. They see you. But they don't see you move in. It's a game of inches. Call all the BS you want. Doesn't change anything in my eyes. Your opinion isn't going to cause me to lose sleep, either. I've had all kinds of "hotshot, worlds best bow hunters" hold 6" groups on paper at 100 yards, but can't hit an 8 inch vital zone on a deer from 70 yards. Those are typically the people that get their feathers ruffled and start saying they don't believe me when I show them pictures of the 2 or 3 tags I filled the previous year from no more than 30 yards.
And you should really read a book. Ashby didn't hunt from a concrete bunker. He doesn't consider that to be hunting. The information is out there if you want to learn more and heaven forbid... learn something that might help you be more successful.
It's so odd to me that ask the people who've shot a compound for less than 5 years act like nobody with a recurve or any traditional archery equipment ever killed anything. If that were the case, humanity would've died eons ago. You think indigenous people from 2000 years ago shot a 350gn carbon arrow at 350fps from 80 yards to kill a deer?
Like I said. Read a book. I'll leave you to wallow in your comments now. I have no interest in interacting with someone who is incapable of respect or general decency. Par for the course, I'm afraid. Thank you social media.
Man, Troy. They really busted your rut sack about it didn't they? They'd really bust mine for being a crossbow hunter 😂. I don't shoot a vertical bow but I am subscribed to your channel because the knowledge about arrow flight and characteristics that you share is really important and interesting to me. Especially when I build my own 20-22" arrows. Thanks for everything Fairy ❤.
Super fun time doing the test. Thanks Troy, and im glad to see most people seem to get and understand what we were testing.
One of the biggest reasons i hear on why people shoot light fast arrows is because they are worried about the drop on a miss judge yardage. Well if you are hitting dots on a paper and the difference of 3/64 means a win and money or go home with nothing, then ok. But for the average hunter, the difference of about 1 inch is likely better then our 5 shot group.
Even lets say we had the 450 arrow and guess the elk was 40 but was really 45 vs the 600 plus. If you aim at top of heart both would be near or at bottom of heart. But with the heavy arrow it gives you the ability to hug the shoulder real tight and even blow through it if you must. And avoid the chance of hitting guts because you are worried about hitting shoulder and not getting a killing hit.
I’m not a heavy arrow dude but I really like the tests. Keep it going
Yup...easy enough to understand for me. This was not comparing a heavy arrow to a light one. It was comparing each arrow to its own trajectory with a 5 yard misjudgement. Fascinating results! I would love to see this done (or not be lazy and do it myself) at 20 30 40 50...the heavier arrow will clearly maintain momentum (and velocity) at range. How will the results vary at distances where the light arrow is still significantly faster, having not shed velocity yet? How about extended range where the light arrow has lost massive amounts of momentum? I believe the results would astonish (and even infuriate) most bowhunters and target archers who believe ultralight arrows and speed is king. Great video guys! Sorry you're getting some negativity....but at least the fan boys of one clan or another don't disappoint. 😂 in the end, which is honestly better...one setup that lands in the bullseye, or a different setup that lands in the bullseye?....maybe it's just accuracy and confidence that's most lethal 😮
Preach on troy!! I hunt with a bunch of guys who shoot ultra light setups, bucks getting away. I am trad in totally with Ashby . Nothing has gotten away fro me. Gonna forward this to all of them. Keep up the good work
It always amazes me at how many self made scientists there are in the world of archery! Amazing.
High quality content. It makes a lot of sense.
I got a new bow the middle of April, this will be the first bow that fits me. I am 6'-7" tall. I am shooting at a 60 lbs. draw weight, 31 1/2" draw length, a 32" and 300 spine arrow, with a 175 grain Sirius field point (500 grain total arrow weight). I am shooting darts at 60 yards with no problems. I am shooting a 5-pin sight and I do not have enough space at the bottom of my sight for a longer yardage pin. SO I am saying, yes you can shoot grownup arrows at 60 yards without a problem. I really like the effect heavier tips have had on this bow! Love the channel and am a believer.
I was literally going to comment on another one of these comparisons (different channel) that the real test should be each arrow zeroed at 60yds then mis judge by 5-10yds. This test is both excellent and compelling. I would have preferred to see this test at 60yds for say i.e. western elk and yardage errors become more evident. I suspect many trajectory calculators would do that for us assuming we put in the different FPS.
Thanks for the science. I love learning even at 60+. How about a test of 3 fletch vs 4 fletcher same weight then 3 blade and two blade broadheads to see the trajectory difference
Great follow up test RF, this will help hunters see how different bow/archer setups impact miss judged shots in the field. Weight is only one factor of many in this test.
Thank you for the testing troy. All test are good test imo. I shoot a 420 grain Easton axis 5mm. And its 68# 28.5 mods in my V3X and i get pass throughs on everything. Hoggs elk deer etc.
My question is how he's gonna mount that pole as a trophy? LOL awesome video
Awesome work TF and gang! Much appreciated!
Good job guys.makes sense if you think about it thanks.
Thank You RF for using Slugs and not that metric BS for mass! 👊
Great opening….. 🤝
Great video, I know of a few trad guys that have changed from heavy arrows to lighter with great results 👍 ignore the haters and couch potatoes mate 👍
Always enjoy the videos , unless I’m shooting a tac course I’m sticking with the super novas and 300 grains up front , I’ve killed two brutes last three years and switched from Easton 5mm axis to the sirrus super nova , and after new string on bow tuned it knocked tuned arrows insert tuned and bare shaft paper tuned just shooting darts!!!! When your getting bullet holes at 6 yards tells me arrows are coming off clean and flat !!!
Gteat test! I like a little heavier than lighter. Why risk penetration and pass through, for trajectory at past hunting distance? The light arrow gang will just not admit that heavy has a better rate of pass through. The bottom line is you gotta practice with what you plan to hunt with
Yup. My usual hunting distance is 10-20 yards after angle compensation (I go up a tree). Heavy fixed broadheads for me.
RF, thank you for the share on knowledge. Please keep sharing. 👊
.... with a poundage over 70?....do this with a 50 # bow and you will see a much bigger difference.... or raise the distance....
Math is math y'all, every action has an equal and opposite reaction. The drop difference isn't what everyone thinks because the heavy arrow actually has less drag, and doesn't slow down because of this law. Zero your bow for your arrows preferably ones that get the job done. Be confident and shoot within your capabilities.
Thanks for a great video. Great information for any archer.👍🇺🇸
Thank you for another brilliant video.Keep them coming. You are always going to get haters.👍🇺🇲🇺🇲🇺🇲🇺🇲👍🇬🇧🏴
I tried this with my Matthews V3 at 60 lbs and 28" draw with a 590 grain and a 520 grain arrow. I zeroed at 20 yards then shot at 25. Twenty shots each arrow. The 590 impacted 2.7 inches low on average. The 520 impacted 2.4 inches low on average.
Looks like a beautiful property
I suggest trying to use two chronographs one one either side of a pig and see if that will work for your k,E study
Awesome video! Thanks for making it!!!!
Interesting experiment. I think most people would think there would be a much greater difference in the light arrow and heavy arrow impacts at the misjudged distance of 45 yards, when shooting for 40 yards. The arrow system INTEGRITY, the arrow system WEIGHT, and the arrow system TRAJECTORY are all part of the ARCHER LETHALITY EQUATION. The fourth aspect of the ARCHER LETHALITY EQUATION to consider is UNPREDICTABILITY. The archer can control the arrow integrity, the arrow weight, and know the arrow drop at given ranges. What cannot be controlled or predicted, is HOW MUCH or IF the target animal is going to move before the arrow arrives. The way to reduce UNPREDICTABILITY, is to not take shots at ranges PAST the 1/4 of a second rule, pertaining to 1/4 of the arrow's speed. Examples: Recurve 160 fps yields 13.3 yards. Compound 260 fps yields 21.6 yards. Crossbow 360 fps yields 30 yards. This is not based on the lethality of the arrow at any distance. It only pertains to an animal's reaction time to the sound of the bow, the sound of the approaching arrow, and gravity affecting how fast the animal can drop. Have archers killed animals with arrows beyond the 1/4 of a second rule? Of course they have. The 1/4 RULE is suggested to REDUCE the chance of arrow impact striking outside of the kill zone on a deer/hog sized animal.
No comment just question. What's the misjudgment difference for stand 5 yards to close misjudgment? More typical than some might think. Just wandering if that 1.25 ish difference holds both ways. Great video Troy keep them coming!!!
I just went through all this testing myself the other day. A 650 grain arrow drops more / has more of a rainbow trajectory, than a lighter arrow setup the same way. However, if you have decided to make the switch to a heavier arrow / high foc setup, you are likely deciding to limit your shot distance, in which case, the heavier arrow will suit you great. I myself, went a heavier route than normal this year. Used a 450 grain setup, 300 spine, last season. This year i went up to 558 grains. Drops more. Oh well
Troy, looks like you done knocked the bark off of those knuckles
Wrenches and cars - I need to learn to not bleed
Lol, I feel your pain brother
A bullet with a high bc eventually is flatter than one with a small bc. Troy got 1.33 at 45 yards. I wonder if there would be a bigger difference with a 5 yard misjudge at 20 yards. Either way people are off more than 1.33 inches at that distance anyway. It would be interesting to go 5 yards the other direction where you will hit high.
Excellent content and I enjoy all your videos. Won't spine weight of the arrow need to change to make a large increase in point weight?
We did that
Love the work RF. What a great experience yall had getting to hang out with Dr Ed and The RF, Talk and throw some arrows. Excellent! Hashtag something. "for the young ones". Love the channel.
Do this same thing but test the max height of the arrow arch difference. Maybe shoot sighted in at 40 but have the target at 10, 20 and 30, this would give you a good picture of the arch
@@JaredOakes-dw6vu
Yeah - we’ve considered that. I a currently at a place where it’s a moot point.
I’ve had some negative comments in this regard - apparently every thing an arrow will ever hit is above the shot line !!!!!
I’ve not encountered that - in fact at a TAC event this year they had a bunch or targets with stuff in between the target and the shooter
100% on the ground - to go over!
@@RanchFairy my thought is it will be really useful for guys that hunt public and can't trim limbs in thick eastern woods to know that kind of thing, I thought it would help the hunting public guys
@@JaredOakes-dw6vu
They are doing great!
I’d argue that 1.25 inches is inside the margin of error for the average hunter.
A great place to prove your theory would have been with MFJJ at TAC
He wont ever do it.
@@ZachC-130 he backed out this year. Idk why people can’t accept that there is no perfect answer. It’s about application
So let’s be damn clear here. This is the second test. IT IS NOT THEORY when you test it.
It WAS a theory. It replicated itself.
So this is why no one as cool as your heroes will attempt this test.
THEY WILL intentionally do two things
1. Set heavy arrows on their light arrow shot line for launch conditions. This will ensure what they want to happen, will happen.
2. They will NOT TUNE The bow for each arrow. DESPITE their self absorbed worship of “bow tuning” as the end all.
On to theory!
Physics and math, aerodynamic drag, momentum aren’t theories. Apply them and poof - no theory.
I remember many years ago in TBM an article where out of a recurve they shot arrows matched for spine, but not weight, mached for weight, but not spine, and arrows matched for both. Of course the author was not advocating.
shooting unmatched arrows, but wanted to show the effect of each.
Well, at a recurve range of 25 yards, (I think) the group from the unspined arrows What's predictably terrible. But the other two groups were exactly the same. At least as far as high low spread couldn't tell the difference.
In other words like Troy keeps saying, you need perfect arrow flight, and you might as well shoot heavy arrows as light.
In traditional archery, you often hear the term "shoot the difference".
Why not shoot the lighter arrow then, without "adjusting your sight tape", shoot 5 yards back. Then do the same with the heavy arrow. Adjusting your sight tape between the different shots can be inconsistent.
So this is an inexact "Science" and we are trying. This is actually test number 2. I did one on my own as well. Every time we do this (or any other test) we go "Oh wow we should have done X". Which allows us to improve, so hang on!! I just got a crossbow.....that one might be interesting to try the same test because I can put it on a bench.
BUT - you have to put each projectile on its trajectory curve to make the test reflect how the projectiles get to the target.
Would love to see similar testing with recurves
If you already have I missed it
Aerodynamic drag and flight trajectory curves are the same. The interesting thing mathematically, slower arrows (both in a recurve) have less drag. The results might be the same!!! Or better yet
But I’m not that good with a recurve
Interesting stuff, thanks for sharing.
All the keyboard warriors need to get off the couch, try themselves, and prove him wrong. I’ve messed around with heavier points on the same arrows, and gotten similar results. The difference in drop from misjudging distance is well within the human error for group size. If you wanna stay on the couch, you can just figure this out with any number of ballistic calculators online.
I am waiting on someone out there to do just that.
As noted in the video. We ALL, no matter the arrow mass, will float the pin a bit if the animal moves.
I actually have a video on doing that intentionally and practicing it.
@@RanchFairy IIRC, for me, the difference in drop for a 150gr difference was less than a 1y ranging error. It looks like your results match mine in that regard.
@@Snorkl7879
I was actually surprised when I did this.
I thought it would be much more
Everybody these days seems to want their own path of logic or product Hill to stand on. Me, I'm always trying for the best of Both worlds, also true Ranch Fairy is that I've never hunted Hogs. I'm looking for a nice middle ground between speed and down range terminal performance.
All arrows drop at the same speed, light, heavy, bullets, airlines, whatever they all drop the same amount.
That's the weird things, guys will say heavy arrows drop to much, I need light arrows. They drop the same.
Same people making the argument that the miss will be to big If an animals moves will think they need to shoot 100y and not realize that the same exact thing will happen.
😂😅
@michaelvoorhies7191 what's so funny?
The reality is that neither arrow is perfect for everyone. Arrow Trajectory and time to target on a 650 grn arrow will matter a lot more on western hunting or any hunting in thick trees where threading the needle can get tough in a shooting window with branches because the 650 will be higher at its highest point or with an animal that might take a step mid flight and it moves 3 yards instead of 1. I would be really curious what yardage cuts look like for each on steep uphill or downhill shots. These guys are western hunters looking for elk. They may not get a flat shot and that 1.25" difference on a 5 yard missed call might be a lot different on a steep uphill or downhill
@@wesgarges I will counter with 60 yard momentum -
Momentum makes things keep moving after impact.
ruclips.net/video/KaN369RRiOE/видео.htmlsi=Eh2Fu9akCNgkUcg4
Elk are big! Big bones - 20” of penetration to hit off side skin!
Also - not barking at you, but I get this one a lot from “expert” archers who NEVER miss. Aren’t they good enough to shoot anything? Or do they need forgiveness?
If the latter - forgive to hit them?
Or a more robust penetrator to keep moving.
Good comment
@@RanchFairy I get that Momentum and KE are major factors. Realistically, out of a current 70lb. bow with a 475 grain arrow, the momentum and ke numbers are going to be "dangerous game" worthy even with loss in velocity at 60 yards. With a well built arrow that has enough FOC, good steering and a good broadhead like an iron will, you are still going through almost anything on an elk. I guess my point is that if you need an extra 12" of clearance at 30 yards on a 60 yard shot, that is easier to get in West Texas than in mountainous terrain. On a 40 yard up/downhill shot with a 35 degree slope I think the cut is 7 yards. If you are off 5 yards on something that has a 7 yard cut, that is a problem that will be exacerbated by a heavier arrow. Maybe not by much, but more. There are just different types of forgiveness in archery. You are focused on on if you miss in the worst possible situation (knuckle of the shoulder or something similar), what gives you the best chance at going through. Some of us want something with enough energy to go through the other 98% of the animal and to have the forgiveness of speed (flatter flight) and tighter pin gaps because of the environment. The "right" answer seems to be whatever falls between an arrow that is obviously too light or obviously too heavy and shoots well out of your bow for how you hunt. The build of the actual arrow and the broadhead will make a massive difference. A 475 grain arrow with no FOC and a shit mechanical broadhead isn't going to go through what a 20% FOC arrow with the sharpest fixed blade head will. There is a lot of Elk taken with sub 500 grain arrows and full pass throughs at the end of the day. I can see a lot of scenarios where a 600 grain arrow would make sense, but it doesn't seem necessary in the elk woods. I definitely don't want something that slow on a long shot at a pronghorn or a mule dear. I do like the content though. I don't have enough time to test really heavy arrows so the results are interesting.
@@wesgarges
Keep your train of thought and go cape buff hunting. Better have a 500 nitro with 600 grain (funny huh!) hard nosed bullets - that way you can lie and take pictures with your bow after the PH kills it for you.
@@RanchFairy cape buffalo is a totally different animal hunted in a totally different environment. You are probably in wide open terrain hunting over a water hole and inside of 40 yards with an animal that isn't jumpy. Like I said, I can see a lot of cases where 600+ grains makes sense. That would certainly be one.
“Idc what your test says. I may have missed by 5” with my lighter arrow with the flappers on the fronts but it don’t matter because my arrow is so fast it got there before the deer got there. My arrow got there before I got out of bed this morning. And my flapper’s gonna leave a blood trail that I can track from the stand. Works 100% of the time, except those times my arrow bounced off a rib but no arrow can get through a deer rib. It’s my fault, I blinked 2 seconds after pulling the trigger and botched the follow through. Im gonna go watch John Dudley now to improve my shot placement”
@@jango_bmx11
He’s pro!! Of course 🤣
Thanks for all your work!! This is awesome!! It’s funny all the haters out there that can’t judge distance so they want a light arrow so they don’t have to be very good at distance.
450 grains is a light arrow still guy
Did you ever state FPS?
Bow poundage 70?
Draw length?
They talked about their specs in the video if I recall one was 70# and the other was 74#
FPS! Hahahaa - wrong channel for that strawman.
Why go to 600+ when I’m blowing through white tails with a mega meat at 40 yards??
Plan B will occur.
@@RanchFairy what if you it back tho would a mega meat be a plan b for a gut shot? just asking your opinion thanks
What was the launch velocity of each arrow? This makes a big difference.
No quarter
@@RanchFairy@RanchFairy, you talk about the test being scientific; this means it must be repeatable. I can't repeat if you do not provide all the data.
@ericnewman971 guess they didn't like my comment, it got deleted because I mentioned you & Joel LOL and how Joel did this test RIGHT TWO YEARS AGO!!
@@tylerchubb3876@tylerchubb3876 haha, yes, never mention Joel or my name. Troy goes ballistic.
@@tylerchubb3876 yep
Have you had Goodluck with your rinehart 18n1 target. I got a new one and I have shot only a few field points into it and it immediately had giant Crack slash hole in it.
yes
Have you left it in the sun for a long time before shooting it? Mine has been super durable and the only "damage" I've had is the side I shoot broadheads into
Im a dumb guy. Id love an explination of why this test was done this way with maybe some images 😅 fun little doodles
What about a ten yard mis judgment?
Send me your results! Who misses by that much with a range finder?
Wow - you mean you will actually take more momentum over 1/4 to 1 inch less drop with a 5 yard misjudge at 40m?? The way the light arrow guys bang on about trajectory I would have thought there would be at least a 6 inch difference - less difference than my margin of error at that range. Hence my 550 grain arrow choice. They just cannot argue against physics and maths - it makes them look real dumb.
@@african7498
So I was surprised when I did this. I actually thought it would be 3-5”. BUT the flight path when you adjust for how it gets there - poof
YEAH BUT, yeah but the light one gets there faster! Yeah, that's the ticket, the deer will be on the neighbor's property before the heavy one gets there...
Thanks for this. From Australia where we use adult arrows.
Your brother must be the guy on eecc Travels channel. Is not you should get a royalty
People act like tradional bow hunters don't kill anything
Right, but we look cool as hell trying
Why shoot so far, become a hunter, all my elk kills have been inside of 25 yards.
It never stops !
You did so much work here. BUT why in the world do all youtube tests, from Cars, to rifles, to bows do tests with equipment that isnt the same. .204 vs .166. 3 fletch vs 4 fletch. it just adds way too many variables. if you are going to spend all this time doing tests. you have to compare apples to apples
Interesting vid
Excellent test…as I read through the comments I can tell a lot of ppl haven’t been hunting long enough and have been sold on the sales pitch…40yds and beyond on a whitetail is stupid-reach the Chuck Adams article-shocking science of string jumping…60yds and beyond on an elk is stupid without a properly built hunting arrow and even then it’s stupid if u ask me…animals react-they hear the arrow wizzing…the after the arrow the more they will typically react to the noise-bc it’s louder with a lightweight speed arrow…95% that shoot past 40yds are shooting a mechanical broadhead-takes 3X to 5X as much force to open and deploy-u can watch on RUclips-bone collector…shoots a WT at 30yds with a 2” mech and the arrow bounced off…got about 1” of penetration…so many animals being shot/wounded then die a month later from infection…even a fixed blade past 40yds-wind catches the broadhead and causes your shot to be off….improve your skill and learn how to close the distance…perfectly tuned/balanced heavy arrows are for the worst case scenario…lightweight speed arrows are for 3D long range…mechanical broadhead’s are for bow hunters that don’t know what they are doing
I just wanted to pick a distance “far enough” for the test to show some validity.
You know what’s funny? Closer to the bow than 4 the drop reduces for both projeticles at about the same rate meaning there is literally no reason to avoid shooting a heavier arrow other than what you want to do
A re-test must be performed within the same parameters as the original test. Otherwise, it is invalid & pointless. I’m not sure what you’re trying to prove. 🤔 Nonetheless, I’m sure you love the challenge of trying to figure it out! 👍 Best of luck to ya!
What made this test invalid and pointless?
Did you miss that bit? Read carefully. How much more will a heavy 650 gr arrow drop compared to a lighter 450 gr arrow if you misjudged the distance and shoot 45m instead of at a judged 40m. In other words, if you are 5 yards out with your distance at 40m - how much more will the heavy arrow drop compared to the light arrow. Both videos clearly show that the heavy arrow hardly drops more than the light arrow - with a 5 yard misjudgement.
Could you give those guys a smaller target. Poor guys
they were aiming at the dots!! smaller!!
Ya idk already not fans of them kinda rood how they talk over and interrupt ed
I think this test is solid. Isolates one of the arguments from the lighter arrow guys. Im still not sold on heavy arrows, still deciding. I need to see more evidence of a heavy arrow having more KE at 60 yards than a 450 at launch...that sounds crazy. Not sure what the chart axis were showings us, either. But good test! Fun watching!
I actually have these Test on my channel. Long range arrow performance playlist.
Wait a couple weeks. MOMENTUM for these exact arrows at 60.
OH MY, math is crazy!!
KE(ft. Lbs.) = (1/2 mass X velocity2) / 225218
Momentum (the factor EVERY BOW HUNTER should put at the top of their list) is quantified by the following formula...
Momentum (slug ft./sec) = (mass X velocity) / 225218
For both these formulas, mass should be in grains, and velocity in feet per second.
@@PersonalBestOutdoors cannot believe you have people arguing against maths and physics. Pretty dumb. The equations are not that hard to understand.
Love RF test ! Go heavy or stay home ! Working for me , I went light didn’t like the results,
Came to the comment section looking for the keyboard warriors 😢 I guess RF scared them all away! 😂
It’s the second time!
Hooter shooter then use same arrows obviously different spine then tune the bow properly for each arrow then run the test then step it out from 40-50-60-70 yards watch the variance. Or you could just watch joel Maxfield tests. As with all this information your not wrong within very specific parameters. People have done all this testing with far more scientific methods than this along with in the field testing there there is a reason people disagree on the super heavy stuff its not a secret that has just been discovered.
@@jsienesi
So you sound kind of logical and ok.
Maxfield is a liar
And you don’t reference Ed Ashbys study.
Mr Liar Maxfield - if he wasn’t a liar
Would repeat Ed’s test - on animals - in exactly the same format
With a compound.
But NOPE - liars (who probably know how much better Ed’s arrow will perform when hunting) don’t do science.
100% conjecture and speculation.
You want to see a narrow test? LOOK AT JOELS test. It’s on foam……..hmmmmm
@@RanchFairy if you can prove that a 650g arrow is going to be the best projectile out of a 65 pound bow for putting down everything from all deer to goats n pigs out to 80 yards in different hunting conditions I'll drink the Ashby coolade. Though I already know I can't get a sight tape out to 80 with a 650g arrow it's all relative. I mean you think Joel knows there is a better option but decided to get his grand slam using inferior set up? There is a reason everyone who doesn't just sit in a blind or a tree settles in the middle for arrow weight. But if your shooting pigs at 30 yards max and can only hit a pie plate from there I 💯 agree with a 650g projectile. But if you're saying your dumbing this down for people that can't tune a bow and only shoot 20 yards they probably want a 2 inch mechanical least they'll get close to what there aiming at and they'll have more chance recovering that gut shot deer 😂
@@jsienesi
All the cliches you read on the message boards in one pile. You got the archerycovid vaccine and boosters!!
Here’s the test - tell me anyone who is willing to do it.
650 grains - Ed arrows and test it for a couple years while hunting. Thats really the only way to validate what you want. Literally - you can talk trash but put that Camaro and 350 big block on the track and race against someone. It’s just like that
I’ll wait for the results - or let everyone just sit back and speculate in their basement
@@jsienesi lots of moving parts here and your requirements are interesting. Joel didn’t think there was another option, nor did he try. He’s come up with his liar tests on foam and some math a 9 year old can complete.
All of this is easily resolved. Build a bare shaft, nock tuned 650 grain arrow with 11 of ashbys factors (we’ll let the tapered shaft be removed). Hunt with it for 10 animals. That is exactly how you do a test of the efficiency and comparative analysis. So, when will this happen? So easy to do. If it fails, post it. HUNTING with the adult arrow system - it failed, you’d be an overnight sensation. I mean, let’s go my man. Starting a channel is free but completing the mission takes more effort and time and money and “hmmm, wonder what would happen if we did???” than slamming people who are trying to figure this stuff out. Thanks for the comment. I am Subsciber one when you start it up. Holler at me troy@ranchfairy.com or on instagram. Let me know when you start up and I’ll sub in.
Learn to shoot the trajectory - momentum arrows come up tops everytime🏹🏹🏹
I shoot the heaviest arrow as fast as I can to maximize the down range energy. My question for all the commenters here is what is a fast arrow to you and is there a target FPS you are trying to achieve?
I look at it this way. 40 years ago when I first started bowhunting bows, bows were shooting arrows in the 180-220 range, and now they act like you can't kill a deer unless you are shooting at least 280. And contrary to what most people believe ,bows are not that much faster than they were then. The difference is we were shooting 550-650 grains aluminum arrows. And now everybody is wanting you to shoot 400-450 grain carbon. They need to take there 300 fps carbon shooting bow and shoot the aluminum arrows we shoot 30-40 years ago and check the speed.
As a side note, I shoot a 517 grain 17.2% FOC using the 250 insert in my EZV. Was shooting a 427 grain with 7% FOC using the 280 insert, but was not happy with the results on deer.
@@ngnmech I fire the same arrows. 475 to 500 and have a few 590+. Let's just start testing around 500 and stop the massive weight craze.
3 Blade 200 Grain older Rothaar Snuffer, got it flying perfectly but it took 4 pretty big feathers and 300 spine. Guys are telling me my bow isn’t tuned and blah blah blah and I should be able to shoot it with 2” Blazers. I’m like guys it would take 15-20 Blazers and you maybe will get a Snuffer to fly correctly. It’d be like trying to steer a Magnus 3-3/4” Bullhead with 2” Blazers. Why spend 2 weeks tuning my bow with bow tuning equipment I don’t own, when I can toss on 4 big feathers and there it’s tuned. Plus I don’t shoot over 20-25 yards anyway.
Put on a 200 grain field point and paper tune your set up. All you really need is an Allen wrench to move your rest in very small increments. Learning to tune your setup is WAY more critical than the weight of your arrows. Please don't use fletching as a "tune", it is not.
@@tonyezolt4560 Allen wrench? What am I going to adjust with Allen wrench on a 1985 Black Widow MA11 62pd recurve? I’ve killed huge bucks with this old recurve. Snuffers don’t even spin true. I just try to get super close to bucks. Plus I shoot off a shelf so nothing to adjust with Allen wrench? I can easily get a 200 grain field point to fly correctly. Heck I could probably get 200 grain field point to fly correctly with 2” blazers. But 200 grain field point is a FAR cry from a 200 grain 1980 Rothaar Snuffer.
@@T-Mak-s7x Sorry, you didn't specify recurve. In your case, maybe try playing with a slightly softer (or stiffer) spine. That's what we did with our stick bows (recurve and self bows). I also would never shoot a head that doesn't spin true.
@@T-Mak-s7x Terry, John Phillips explains it pretty good.
ruclips.net/video/wGg-oocfpp0/видео.html
@@tonyezolt4560 Ya got a bunch of seconds from Rothaar cheap back in the 80’s. Got my spine correct. It’s just trying to fly huge broadheads is tough. Toss on a Magnus 3-3/4” Turkey head chopper off’r see where you end up? When I toss on G5 Megameat or 100-125 GR Fixed blade out of my neighbor’s VXR it’s so easy to get arrows to fly correctly even with bunch of brass & 15-24% FOC, but trying to fly old huge Snuffers or 3-3/4” Turkey head chopper offr’s those broadheads change everything. Like I said I could probably get 3-3/4” head Chopper off’r to fly right with about 15 2” blazers attached (maybe?), or 4 huge Shield cut feathers and full length 300 or 260 spine. I’d cut arrows as short as possible with those 3-3/4” head chopper offr’s but I can’t, gotta run full length or they hit sight on his VXR when drawing. I’m actually going to try cutting one as short as possible out of my recurve see what happens? No sight to hit on recurve. I shoot that VXR a lot, what an amazing weapon. I want a Lift badly and might buy one.
It’s a fair point and I get what he’s saying. Few issues though. Not gonna bash shooting too much although there was a mention of an arrow in a tree. A good shooter is gonna average 4” groups at 40. You can’t take one arrow and talk about a 0.25 inch difference. I stopped watching so maybe there was more but we need 10+ arrows at each distance. 2nd issue is 40 yards. Step back to 60 or 70. Yes Troy only shoots animals at under 40 in front of a feeder. But a lot of these counter arguments are from guys shooting out west on truly wild game at longer ranges. If he really wants to silence the crowd, let’s see that test.
I shoot a 650 grain arrow and I have shot multiple animals out to 60 yards and misjudging the distance by 5 yards has NEVER made me not killing the animal.
I have killed an animal at 72 yards with that setup as well, but I didn't misjudge the distance then.
And I always have full pass throughs and that is something the speed chasers with light arrows never experience at those distances.
And I have helped multiple of the them to recover animals with one lung penetration shots that still lived hours after the first shot.
I have hunted with bows since 1986 and I have killed more than 400 big game animals since then and I have shot almost all of them by stalking/still hunting.
With and without calling.
And I have tested almost everything that is possible to test.
Of course the difference will be large if you hunt with a 50lbs bow and a short draw, but if you hunt with that, you need to keep your shots short anyway.
I have a 32" draw length and shoot a 70lbs bow and my bow speed with those 650 grain arrows is 260 fps.
And you mentioned a VERY good point and that was that a good shooter average 4" groups at 40 yards and the reality is that the difference between the light and heavy arrow will always be less than that if you adjust the distance for the weight of the arrow unless you have a rather light draw weight and/or short draw length.
So, you might even hit higher with the heavy arrow than you would with the light arrow if you misjudge the distance by 5 yards.
Because your shooting errors are larger than the difference between the arrows.
And the reality is also that many that do shoot at animals at long distances out in the west, are far from being able to group inside 4" at 40 yards or 6" at 60 yards.
Some of them even struggle to put 3 arrows inside 6" at 20 yards, but still they fling their light arrows at mule deer at 60-70 yards.
Way to many hunters follow advice from the "pros" that tell them to use light arrows and large cutting mechs, because that is what the "pros" are paid by the industry to push.
Speed is sexy and sexy sells.
I agree I would love to see this test at 70 or 80. I shoot ~550 grains and I will say, the pin gap is definitely greater on my heavier arrow than when I shot lighter, but my heavier arrows seem to be flying more consistent at those long ranges. I think its because they maintain their speed better being heavier
I live "out west" in Washington state. It's also, the only state I hunt in. More specifically, along the coastal regions notorious for under growth, and infringing tree limbs.
I am here to tell you that ANYONE needing 60+ yards to "hunt out west" needs to improve their skills as an actual hunter. I've never shot at game beyond 49 yards. But I actually put in the work to get close. Those that hunt 80 yards "out west" should probably pick up a rifle.
Additionally, that arrow in the post was a lighter arrow than either of us had pins for. So, the sight in process to shoot an arrow 200gr lighter than you had a pin for, yes. Misses happen. Ryan actually skipped it off the target. We assumed it gone. A simple 2 yard adjustment was made to his sight, and another arrow was put to work.
You shouldn't make baseless assumptions or accusations without being fully informed. Ryan DID hold substantially better than a 4 inch group with his regular arrow setup.
Just thought you might want to know.
I mean, you just gotta look at the facts to see how narrow minded this conversation is. Archeries supposed to be fun. Get out and shoot what you want. But don’t come on here claiming “science” and then no show at Tac because you won’t shoot long shots cause you’re a man and can do what you want. And then claim shooting a lighter arrow would sacrifice arrow flight so can’t do that either cause well, your a man. There’s more to archery than 18 yard pigs under a feeder. Think the pros shooting 100 yards at Redding with 350 grain arrows are sacrificing arrow flight? Think guys out west shooting pronghorns at 100 yards are shooting 650 grains? Oh right, those guys aren’t bow hunters. There’s an arrow for every situation. Up close and personal, heavier the better. Stretching it out at Tac? Ain’t nobody shooting a 650 grain arrow. Does that mean you heavy arrow yahoos shouldn’t get out and shoot? Enjoy life. Broaden your horizons. Have fun. But don’t bash others for doing something that clearly works for archers far more skilled than those on this channel.
I donno where my replies keep going but none the less. There’s more to archery than 18 yard pigs under a feeder. I’ve yet so see an antelope at 100 yards shot with a 650 grain arrow. And I challenge the fairy to question the arrow flight of a pro shooting 350 grains at Redding. Any “archer” that chooses bass fishin over tac shouldn’t be running around preaching science in archery.
How do you block a channel?
Go into settings and hit block!
Ir's not the arrow, it's the indian !!!
If any comment about this test being done wrong or another test proving this test wrong the RanchFairy is deleting them
No he isn't. But I know people who comment and then pull them down later, then blame me (or other RUclips personalities). There's a couple of "pros" out there.
I do have 2 folks on the "no quarter" list. Yes, they get their comments deleted.
By me.
My response to the people who haven't tried it, is......
Just repeat the test.
I did this twice.
One video was me - I was quite shocked at the results.
Then I shot it with two other folks in this video.
Because I wasn't convinced. I am more than likely convinced now. But not 100%. There are very few absolutes in this world.
Might try it with a cross bow on a tripod!
@RanchFairy well I'm kinda on that "no quarter" team lol..... in my test I used a 414gr 13.6% foc vs 620gr 20.3% foc there is exactly 50fps difference. Tuned n tested one arrow took pics an notes then went an retuned to the next arrow and repeated the testing...
the 414gr impacted 2" low VS the 620gr impacted 5.25" low for a difference of 3.25" in drop
@@tylerchubb3876
Yeah - that’s no someone on the no quarter list! Thats not a bad result.
I have tested a couple other BOW platforms and it seems there is some bow launching / energy stuff going on I can’t quite figure out.
I’ll add your results to my others.
One test was like yours
Three others were half that. Never test anything. It leads to more questions than answers!!! “Pro tip” just believe whatever you read on the message boards!
😆
One fact here. Your heavier arrow has abut 15% more momentum at the target (which I assume was 40 yards) than the light arrow momentum AT THE BOW! That’s crazy! But just math.
You’re not testing true trajectory….again. You’re looking at drop. That’s good to know, for sure.
Someone is way too technical. All they doing is shooting to see the difference in impact between different weight arrows. Doesn’t matter if arrow, nock, fletching etc are different. A deer won’t care.
Just pick a arrow and go hunting lol. Who really cares what someone else's arrow weight is haha.. it's fun to get out and shoot with friends.. but this test is point less. Between the trigger punching and human error. Archery is fun. But everyone shoots something different. If you want to know your bows drop go shoot it & find out. You should know what you're bow will do. Get out and shoot your bow. Always enjoy a ranch fairy video.
Go heavy and take all the advantages of the momentum and penetration from a minimal loss of speed. Speed don’t kill at distance with a light arrow.
Skrew the trolls
Bro. All your shit I’ve seen has been quality. I used to shoot outdoor unmarked ranges back in the 90s when I was young. All the local pros used 80# bow and a 2312 with a over draw. I shot 60# with a 2113 with a insert and a 150 grain point. I noticed my 40 thru 60 yard pin gap was tighter than theirs. They set the ranges mostly 35-60 yards. I smoked their asses😂😂😂. I was poor. My range set up was same as my hunting set up. Just add a 150 grain thunder head. Nothing ever survived it’s wrath. Pop some new blades in do it again😂😂😂 21:35
❤❤
It's the same thing with bullets only better,BC
I like all of these jokers that say if you shoot a heavy arrow and make a 3 or up to 5 yard misjudge that heavy arrow will drop and you will miss and the lighter arrow will hit and every time I'm thinking well what you are saying the deer jump up and the lighter arrow hits because they jump up 😮😮 advantage goes to heavy arrow again because we all know that deer go down and sometimes swing away so both are going to miss 😂
Stop it bro. Being all logical
I knew the other guys were doing the test wrong. Does for the light arrow doesn’t show true drop on the heavy side. Next would be awesome to see speed on impact at 40-50 yards!! 🤣👍🏾👍🏾🤙🏾
Momentum at 60 coming up in the next couple weeks
Speed at impact doesn’t matter
Speed x Mass - matters
@@RanchFairy I think they both matter, depending on the bumpiness of the game pursued
@RanchFairy @hawaiianhunter Just ask any duck hunter why lead shot killed better than steel shot....
Why is time to target never discussed? It’s a real factor in hunting applications where the animal can move. Heavier isn’t *always* better.
RF has done a video or two on this subject, as have many others. The difference in velocity between a fast light arrow and a slow heavy one does not significantly compensate for the speed that the animal moves at.
@@colinmitchell3213there is a great article online with all the data. The difference is fractions of a second.
So the issue is I can’t resolve the amount of movement. Colin noted above that YES I HAVE done time to target.
With video
Mine and others of animals only.
NO one has done that.
The movement of the animals is NOT ( READ THAT WORD)
Again it is NOT!!!!!
A static measurement like gravity. If it were static in say “feet per second” we have a discussion that has a possible result.
Here’s what you need to noodle. The animals VOTE. They move of their own volition. Sometimes they move
Sometimes they don’t. (Did I mention I had examples of this on my video?)
I digress
Sometimes they roll
Sometimes they roll and duck
And then some - take one step forward at the release……especially as range increases.
So it is 100% random. You nor I will ever know what the animal will do - until the shot breaks - they vote - you have no control.
@@RanchFairy thank you for the response. I do agree we don’t have control over their actions. I did watch that video. If I was concerned about an animal moving, I’d probably choose a faster projectile over a slower one. So speed does matter, it’s up to you how MUCH it matters, and should be a decision making factor in arrow builds and based on the game you pursue and your intended purpose.
@@sethlucas7592
That seems very logical. Here’s what I’m noodling. I think we agree if they do move (which is not a fixed amount of movement like dropping a ball from a building)
The fact is the arrow will hit somewhere other than the intended POI.
Theory states the faster arrow will be closer to intended POI.
Ok - gotcha.
What is now in the shot line that was not intended to be hit. Meaning the animal moved and introduced a different part of the bone structure into the shot line.
From an elevated position, 90% of deer hunting. 90% of Bowhunting is deer. That angle downward has a very high probability of introducing the scapula into both arrows paths.
Because physiologically, when 4 legged animals move the scapula lowers. It is at its highest point when they are just walking around normally.
Animal lowers - how much? That is animal to animal specific.
Shoulder blade lowers into shot line. Animal specific on amount of movement.
I can’t resolve the inconsistency of intended POI and actual POI from the video I’ve done. Literally 100 or more on animal “live” shots. Not one of them does anything predictable.
So how do we increase lethality? That’s my goal.
"Form" as long as your level is level and your peep is right what more form do you need?😅😅 "form" isn't universal...JUST LIKE ANIMALS HABE A VOTE...EVERY HUMAMS ANATOMY IS DIFFERENT..."FORM" 😅😅
💪🏽🇺🇸🏹
All arrows drop *at the same rate* . It's just a matter of time. The slow arrows have a bit more time to drop. That's it!
Do not believe me. Check your physics handbook. I challenge you to do so!
The point of this experiment is the comments that the heavier projeticle “falls out of the sky”
Your comment is quite sophisticated compared to just showing it.
Now the physics of the arrow impact energy between these two arrows at 60 yards!!! Oh that one is gonna be great
Stay tuned - physics is unyielding
@@RanchFairy Oh, I see. It looked like I disagreed with you.
I'm not. I directed my post at those who expected "fall off the sky" behavior.
Physics does not support it. That was my point.
@@bakters gotcha.
Haha there are no silver bullets. Add weight or drop weight, there are advantages and disadvantages. Heavy arrows do penetrate marginally better, lighter arrows have better trajectory. No matter how you try to spin it. Make sure your shits sharp and you practice. People are gonna lose elk with light and heavy arrows. Shoot what works best for you and shoot a lot. Thatll make the biggest difference. Dumb comment made LOL
Not a bad comment - pretty fair
Until the down range momentum is analyzed. Thats next. “What do you give up for “better trajectory” at 60 yards?
Answer coming up
@@RanchFairy for sure more momentum with the heavier arrow. How much, i guess we will see. With modern compounds i think we dealing in accesses of energy needed to penetrate an animal. But i dont advocate taking exetremly long shot either. More of a middle ground guy. 400gr or 600gr both should work at reasonable range. 400gr is going to start out faster but also shed velocity faster. But 400gr still going to give better trajectory because 600gr arrow would need to be shot side by side really far, out of hunting range to see its ballistic superiority. Ha maybe im wrong. Glad your doing tests. Gods speed.
@@CJay2987 Momentum is coming up. Next couple weeks I'll post it. It is pretty amazing how much you give up in Momentum as the arrow travels downrange.
I was a bit shocked.
@@RanchFairy, why would it be amazing? In a 50-yard test between a 461gr and a 669gr. The 461gr lost 7% the 669 lost 4,7%. (initial-final)/initial The difference in momentum between the two arrows at 50 yards was 21.85%. (a-b)/((a+b)/2) This will be what you will show. The variables will be launch velocity and drag. But for sure, the heavy from the same bow will always have a greater amount of momentum.
Moral of the story. Shoot your bow.
Actually - moral of the story is physics doesn’t lie and yes - you need to shoot your bow. Wait till my momentum study of these two arrows comes out in a few days.