FROM Dr Ed PLEASE READ “The database has approximately 5,000 test shot records (not including 'focal study' shots looking at a specific arrow/broadhead feature), which comprise shots on animals from Impala, whitetail, and pig size up to Cape and Asian buffalo. There is also a database of actual bow kills on similar-sized animals, which now approaches 700 shot records. We use the 'actual kills' database as a cross-reference to be sure that the testing outcomes accurately reflect the outcomes of actual hunting shots. We also have reports of hunting results sent in by multiple individuals, which number into the thousands. Antidotal information from other hunters is scoured for any useful trends that have been reported (such as the interesting fact that hunters shooting compound bows with draw weight of 70# and below report a significantly higher number of complete passthrough shots on Cape and Asian buffalo than do hunters shooting compound bows of higher draw weight). As should be evident, there are many types of 'heavy bone' hits for which we have very detailed information. My original Study database tracked 118 data points on every shot, and the new testing database (2021 and forward) tracks 250 data points per shot. The databases are searchable, so we can compare the heavy bone penetration rate on impala and whitetail-sized animals to the heavy-bone penetration rate on buffalo rib shots, which are equal when the shot angle and bone impact angle are the same."
@@romanmax8561 not necessarily. Modern archery has increased efficiency. You have to have an understanding of both kinetic energy and momentum, and their relationship. They are both products of mass and velocity; however, they are calculated different. A modern compound bow can take its stored energy and transfer it more efficiently to the arrow than can a traditional bow. KE is much higher with the compound arrow. The database mentioned above is based on traditional bow data. Increasing mass and shooting it from a traditional bow is the only reasonable means of increasing lethality. If you decrease the mass, the gain in velocity is not proportional because the energy transfer from the traditional bow to the arrow does not have the mechanical advantage that a modern compound bow does. And in just the last 5-10 years, mechanical efficiency has increased tremendously. The idea of increasing arrow mass is important, but in the right place - with traditional archery gear. Science proves this to us. -Which one will penetrate further, a 650gr arrow at 200fps or a 475gr arrow at 260fps? Science says it's the same. the 650gr arrow has KE of 57.72 and MO of 0.57 slugs. The 475gr arrow has KE of 71.29 and MO of 0.55 slugs. Two-hundredths of a slug is insignificant. A difference of 13.57 in kinetic energy is significant. Energy is transferred. -For the 650gr arrow the time of flight to 30 yards is 0.45 seconds and it has 22.5" of drop from point of launch. For the 475gr arrow the time of flight is 0.35 seconds and it has 6.3" of drop from point of launch. -A tenth of second is a lot of time for an animal that's reacting to an arrow in flight. That's a clean miss if you're aiming center mass on a deer at 30 yards, and not accounting for reaction time and drop distance of the animal. The difference in drop distance between the 475gr and 650gr arrows out to 30 yards is 16". For the 650gr arrow, the difference in drop between 20 yards and 30 yards is 16.4". That's a tremendous difference in margin of error, and has very meaningful effect on successful shot placement. -Science says the 475gr arrow is the better choice. MO is the same, but KE is significantly higher, and time in flight difference is a tenth of second faster with the 475gr arrow. We know MO is what it takes to stop something in motion, and KE is amount of energy an object in motion has. The object with more energy will affect the momentum. Momentum has a direction. Once the arrow is deflected off of bone and is moving laterally, the MO is less important than the KE.
ED Ashby has forgotten more about archery than most people learn in a lifetime. Highly intelligent…Love to listen to him share his knowledge, and kudos to Ranch Fairy for taking his time to pick his brain and include us in on the conversations….. Thanks to both of you men…
Hey sir, first I want to say thank you for being hated by so many, but still speaking the truth. This is the first time I've seen Mr Ed Ashby in the wild, soaking up this video. I appreciate all the hard work you men are doing.
Ed is an American treasure for all bowhunters. Thank you Ed and Troy for taking the time to explain the difference between arrow mass on bone breaking and FOC penetration on meat, hide etc..
This was an awesome interview. I hunt with longbow and a recurve, I went to heavy hunting arrows with high FOC a few years ago, I build my own arrows and I will NEVER go back to light weight arrows. Thanks for all you do for archery. God bless
Dr. Ed Ashby is definately on a different level. Science doesn't lie. The problem is that a lot of people fail to listen or simply can not comprehend. The information that he is supplying. Always great content.
“The animal gets a vote.” That might be the best quote ever when it comes to a discussion on shot placement with someone who never misses or makes a bad shot. Just the other day a big name RUclipsr posted a video missing an animal at 64 yards because the animal simply stepped out of the way after the shot. In the same video, he made a shot at over 100 yards and claimed that it was an ethical shot because he knew the capabilities of himself and his gear. The arguments in the comments were pretty wild about whether the long shot was ethical or not for various reasons, but no one mentioned the miss earlier in the video, or how animals have a say in determining where the arrow lands.
One of the few crossbow RUclipsrs learned a valuable lesson he made a shot on a deer with a high efficiency crossbow that was going well over 400 fps with over 0.7 slugs of momentum and the deer ducked the string enough for him to make a bad shot at 75 yards. If they can duck a crossbow they can duck a compound bow. We will never be faster than their reaction time ever. Archery is about how close not how far. We need a setup that works in both plan A situations as well as plan B situations. Spot on buddy!!!
That's just what we SEE too. The creators have total control over that. But yeah, it seems there's an unfortunate shift in archery-hunting media from "How close can we get?" to "How far can we hit?"
I saw that video. He made a horrible shot at 100 at well. Shot it in the neck. He pulled that shot hard. I couldn't believe he took that second shot or never should have been out on TV ever!
Thank you for always telling us the truth and showing us the results. You do a lot for the bow hunting community. Good luck on your hunting season this year
I want to see John Dudley still argue these guys are saying form and tune don't matter as long as you have a 100 grain arrow. Oh wait, they never said that. How about where the they said weight is the only factor and speed doesn't matter. Oh wait, they didn't. This video helps highlight an often underrated aspect (as Ed calls it "high mechanical advantage") : A single bevel broadhead is simple the best tool for continuing through varying and unpredictable mediums. Period. This man is an absolute legend. Stop arguing people and listen. This man has probably first hand witnessed more wound channels than anyone one on the planet and he chooses to volunteer his wisdom. Thanks you Ed for sharing and thank you Troy for helping spread the wisdom!
Dudley is bought and paid for it seems. He's not stupid or inept so all he could be is indoctrinated or a shill. Given the money involved in his game I'd say it's clear.
A few years ago went to single bevel left 125 grain with left helical vanes total weight 520 grains. vap elite arrow along with the standard 50 grain half out. 14% foc. Very happy with the results
This is honestly one of the best and most informative videos I’ve seen in a very long time. The basic study information was pretty clear and definitive, despite some fringe topics needing more study. Thanks!!!!
Dr. Ashby is right. He has taken over 1,000 big game animals. That’s more than any bow shop salesman, or any manufacturer. Thanks immensely Dr. Ashby for your research, and thanks Ranch Fairy for your efforts to get the word out.
Been hunting with Ashby inspired arrows since 2007 out of multiple recurves and longbows. Penetration has not been an issue, even with 45#@26" homemade selfbows. Thanks Ed for the many years of intensive studies on arrow lethality.
I am one of the 500 emails (a couple times) thanks for responding. There is sooo much info out there on tuning it is a bit daunting and confusing for a first timer. My arrows now punch bulletholes bare shaft and fletcher. I appreciate what you do.
The tissue resistance factor can be seen well with the child’s toy gooblab. The cornstarch and water. The faster you push into it the harder it becomes and more resistant. Thank you for your work Troy and Dr. Ed. You’ve greatly increased my archery skills
Dr. Ed Ashby is a true gem and an impressive resource. I've learned something from him every time we've spoken. I appreciate this video. As you said, "from the horse's mouth" Thanks for the time and effort to put this together, Troy.
Love this guy Ed, can listen to him all day and flick his ashes off his shirt lol, amazing knowledge and insight on what is possible with different approaches of weapons of Choice
Thank you both. You do realize there will still be people to argue this. I understand completely. So much great information for all to up their chances when that moment comes.
18:00 Ed addresses modern compounds, which is what i was going to ask about. Its odd to me that we haven't been able to pin a momentum number to the bone breaking threshold of 650gr, that works above and below 650gr based on bow lbs and arrow speed etc. I would have to believe smaller boned animals like whitetail, should be easier to penetrate bone than a big game animal. Is there a way to quantify different animal bone density? How would we recreate a elk or deers bone density in a synthetic material for testing?
He DOES address this. He used multiple arrow speeds and it didn’t matter. Under 650 grains COULD still break bone but it was 50%. It was 100% above 650. “Even a few grains above 650.” Dr. Ashby’s study has plenty of different game animals (impala to cape buffalo. Healthy bone density will be the same between an elk or whitetail. They’re all hollow. Once the broadhead hits the bone, the split/crack is made. Higher FOC then determines the penetration. There is no medium that can re-create living bone density. Shooting scapulas against a target, does not give the same results. Living tissue, blood, muscle, tendons and ligaments offer additional cohesive material that the arrow has to fly through.
@@ArchersAnonymous-nb4ym the momentum number is 0.7-0.8 slugs get that going as fast as it can and that’s your new setup. Yes there is different bone density between animals if all your going to do is hunt 1 animal in your entire life and never go after another than a 450 TAW single bevel head is all you’ll ever need for that deer. When you want to venture to other animals it only makes sense to have a hunting arrow this is in the 500 grain range to 600 grain range test your arrows get the numbers and collect your own data and hit it perfectly flying as fast as it can utilizing most to all of your bows potential. This will increase your arrow lethality.
One large solar flare and WAY more folks will be appreciateing this info. Thanks Ranch Fairy and Dr. Ashby! Just signed up for $5 per month to the foundation. Well earned!
@@jesseherbert2585 truth we are on a verge of SHTF any moment now solar flares is just one possibility. It’s why I always have fixed heads too. Mechs are great while we can still get them replaced and such but when this society falls solid fixed will be what we need.
It's great seeing a man who has seen and done things we could never touch sitting.... Smoking a clean cigar.... While trying to teach us how to improve our gear. It's way lacking today
I find it interesting that the target archers who turn to hunting have to tell us 'how it is' instead of understanding arrow flight, more fps seems to be their way of dealing with everything, they don't understand not everyone pulls an 80 lb bow. Thanks to Dr Ed & RF for their time.
For the 80lb+ guys having tuning issues. I had to jump to the 170 spine Grizzly Stiks. My bows have been APA King Cobra’s at 80-83lbs. I have 30” draw and run 30” 750/850 grain arrows with 200/300gr heads. One thing I see a lot of people not consider is brace height and cam design. Shorter brace height and more aggressive cams that you typically see on “speed bows” will impart more stress on the arrow shaft, especially if you have high and extreme FOC. The first time I tried tuning heavy arrows I was using 240spine and went to multiple shops within a 200m radius with no success. Just for the hell of it tried a 170 and found the sweet spot.
It’s amazing how many try to still discredit science and facts or try to shame those that just want the average Joe archer to be better in the woods. Thank you Troy for all that you do, thank you Ed for helping teach the knuckle head too lol. It’s sad that people forget the success of archery in the past and today they want to make these amazing efficient machines suck. It blows my mind.
I'm a PH.D. materials scientist who got into hunting in my thirties. There's a decent chance we're going to have issues with our power grid in the near future, thanks to our weakening magnetic shield, and activity on the sun. I would not be surprised if in my remaining time here i see people appreciating this research far more than they thought they might... Just signed up for the five dollar a month donation. Well earned! "Honor all spilled blood".
2nd comment.. whoo! Hey man. Love the vids. The information is always coming from the right place.. coming from a medium light weight arrow guy with good FOC.
!Lightbulb Moment! It's like slapping water with your hand. The harder you slap it, the more surface tension of the water resists your hand. Same with a projectile on animal tissue. Watching this video made it click for me! Thank you. @ranchfairy
Back when I was still hunting before my life went to crap and shoulder injuries kicked my butt, I was shooting a PSE Polaris round cam bow, finger release, instinctive. I played with tuning the bow and my arrows a long time before achieving perfect arrow flight. All said and done I had to bush my bow up to 80 pounds draw weight and was able to successfully bare shaft tune my arrows and achieved perfect arrow flight with both bare shaft and fletched arrows . I have no idea what my arrow weight was or my foc as I didn't understand all that back then. All I know is I was getting the performance I was looking for. My bow and arrow flight was extremely slow in the eyes of compound shooters. My shots on deer were hard hitting and passed through bone with ease. My shots would pass through deer so effortlessly that I would see my arrow stick in the ground by the time the deer reacted to being hit.
This was been an excellent video with excellent information. I still stand by my original thoughts. Bow hunters used to shoot 700 ish grain wooden arrows using old recurve bows in the 50's and 60's and many of them got full pass throughs on moose, deer, black bear, elk etc. Dr Ashby's concept of FOC and 650 grains minimum is exactly right. It would have helped bow hunters back then. However, in today's world we still need to focus on perfect arrow flight, arrow construction and enough speed to get the job done. Super flat shooting arrows only counts when competing for paper shots to win tournaments.
Thanks again Troy and DR Ed very informative and helpful.I don't know if you guys know what is about to happen here in south Australia, Australia come 1st of December 2024 south Australian government is putting in place a total ban on bow hunting even on your own private property we have put forward all of Dr Ed's studies in to the human and ethical way of dispatching animals they the South Australian government won't recognise his work !! It's a damn shame what next ban fishing and camping STOP the ban sorry for the rant Troy keep up the good work mate you've helped me in so many ways bloke and I appreciate it
The heavy weight up front is storing kinetic energy given to it from the bow. The arrow and fletching is the tail stabilizing flight. When you add constant thrust it exaggerates the importance of a proper foc. If you have a rear of center on a model rocket it will tumble.
My 700+ grain 250 spine victory rip tko arrows shot out of a 70# mathews bow are ultra deadly.They shoot like darts.They are not the best thing for 40+ yard shots but I don't take those anyways.Also the tune up really well.
Good content given Doc Ed's presence. It does seem like you, Troy, are trying to cover your tracks on getting folks on the FOC train several years back; you did admit with Dudley that your bow "experience" was limited. Didn't care for the way Dudley spoke degradely "at" you but Dudley is an experienced bow subject matter expert. I'll stay watching ya Troy but with a bit of reluctance. This should have been one of your FIRST videos years ago before hyping up the FOC.
Thank you to each of you who chose to subscribe to ABF's free newsletter and/or donate to the Ashby Bowhunting Foundation. I had made individual thank you comments, but I see many of those are missing today, along with numerous of the other comments/answers I had posted. Neither Troy nor I know why that is happening.
Ive been shooting 605 grain arrows for a few years, and have yet to have one fail to penetrate bone. This includes a frontal shot on a mule deer that broke the femur on its way out. I dont understand the supposed lack of a momentum threshold. I cant throw a 650 gn arrow through a deer. Clearly velocity plays some roll. What am I missing?
only once ive seen someone mention to tune cams to be into same direction on entire draw, dosnt really matter how much out or in, but if they dont stay in same line, its impossible to tune on my cheapo bow it became significally harder to tune at about 56-57lb, this could be cable wear too tho, got too many shots on em
As always when you and Ed have these talks, and I've listened to other content providers interview Ed, the depth/level of information is astounding. These interviews with impromptu questions allowing for more detailed explanations makes it possible to really understand what the message is. Awesome interview!
I have long argued the increase of FOC as helpful. Many have disagreed but I think it depends on what one wants to do. I have built Lonewolf Custom Bows for more than 40 years. As a Traditional Bow manufacturer serving mostly hunters and not Olympic style target archers the more FOC helps when tuning arrows for finger shooting and broadhead shooting. Testing will bear this out. Our style is more dynamic than an Olympic shooter shooting at a distant target with sights and a special release and style. It's different! It is fact that a the FOC that has been taught for years will fly more balanced further for say " Olympic style' Than how we shoot. These people have many adjustments where Traditional bows don't. I have trained Shooters for decades to bare shaft. Do that correctly and the finger shooting Traditional Bow shooter will certainly see advantages.
So if I understand correctly if we r anything below 650 then it really don’t matter? Like if I had a 525 or 575 grain arrow it’s going to perform about the same as my 480 grain arrow? None will break bone and all have roughly 50% chance of getting through bone if I’m using a good 3/1 sharp head with perfect flight? Am I understanding this correctly?
Both arrows under 650gr total mass have a 50% chance of breaking the bone but a higher FOC arrow under 650gr has a higher probability of being in the successful 50% rather than the failed 50%. Ed speaks about this at 10 mins 30 sec.
Yes that’s why I ask the question cause if u was to have a ligther arrow say 500 grain and a 18-20% FOC and a heavier 550-575 with a 18-20% FOC and both arrows had the same or similar FOC both arrows are under 650 so both have a 50% chance at breaking bone so wouldn’t it be better to run the slightly lighter arrow with the same FOC as the heavier arrow so you got more speed and better trajectory? Thats why I ask the question and RF said he will ask DR Ed so I’m looking forward to that. Again I’m trying to learn and trying to figure this out
50% of breaking what bone ? What exact bone ? Sounds like irrelevant data , so may variables in “breaking bone “ bone varies in thickness and density per animal, looks like other than the frontal shot Chris too witch idk what he was thinking, the couple decent shots he did make had plenty penetration . And proved lethal Just like my 480g Arrows do in elk
@joevandivner9704 no because the heavier arrow you use under the 650 threshold the more probability you have in being in the successful 50% of breaking a heavy bone rather than the failed 50%.
@@joevandivner9704you can shoot either arrow. Or the lightest arrow for your desired trajectory. Pass throughs happen ALL the time with light arrows. It clearly works at killing animals until you hit a bone (animals are full of them).
Mr Ashby gives me a tiny bit more confidence in my FMJ I have left with this podcast. Just gotta put 250 up front. I’ve done ok with FMJ’s, on Whitetail bucks not pigs.
With AirBows, the bolt is shot by pushing air pressure from the tip of the bolt...Is FOC still valid for this as they say the bolt does NOT bend?...Have you tested the 600FPS Benjamin M600 AirBow?...
I understand that 650g is the threshold to reliably break bone. Does arrow speed ever factor into the equation? I shoot 25.5" draw and 53 pounds draw weight... I mainly hunt hogs. A 650g arrow with my specs would probably be sub 200 fps. Suggestions on what total weight arrow I should be using?
At a given arrow weight and assuming perfect arrow flight for all arrows, the faster the arrow, the more force and momentum it will have. However, you do not need to worry that your arrow velocity drops below 200 fps. Most all my approximately 1000 big game animals were taken with arrows having a velocity of 150 to 160ps. It is important to remember that at a given arrow weight and assuming perfect arrow flight for all arrows, the faster the arrow, the more force and momentum it will have. However, increasing arrow velocity increases the tissue's resistance force to penetration. A doubling of arrow speed (with a given arrow) quadruples the tissue's resistance to the arrow's penetration. On the other hand, increasing arrow mass (for a given profile arrow at a given arrow velocity) increases the arrow's momentum without increasing the tissue's resistance force. As far as arrow penetration is concerned, not all momentum makes an equal contribution. While increased arrow velocity does increase arrow momentum, it has two downsides when it comes to "useful arrow momentum": (1) it increases the tissue's resistance to penetration, and (2) velocity is rapidly degraded as the arrow penetrates the tissue(s); thus velocity's potential contribution to the "useful arrow momentum" rapidly decreases as the arrow penetrates. Arrow mass remains constant during penetration, and its contribution to the "useful arrow momentum" remains constant.
Just started to dabble into the heavy arrows... 27in draw... 472 total grains.. 242 fps at 65lb... i really have no idea what im doing.. but the arrow shoots lights out.. is this set up good... bad? ( mathews Z7 extreme)
@@Coyotehunter243 Add good broadhead like a Magnus black hornet Make sure broadheads fly accurately Take responsible shot angles and you’re good to go. If the broadheads don’t fly. Troy@ranchfairy.com - I’ll help ya
All that being said about the bullets and how twist rate made that much difference I wonder if there's a difference in arrows between strait or nearly straight fletch and heavy helical
I do not have hard data to back it up, but with feather fletching, which has a natural curve that induces some arrow rotation, with extreme and ultra-extreme FOC arrows, I use a straight fletch. With plastic vanes it is necessary to add some offset and/or helical to the fletching to induce arrow rotation. Using a single-bevel broadhead, in and of itself, induces some slow arrow rotation through the air, and I attempt to get as close as possible to the same degree of arrow rotation from the fletching. However, it is sometimes necessary to have fletching offset and/or helical to achieve perfect arrow flight, and achieving absolute perfect arrow flight should, first and foremost, be your guiding factor. When a single-bevel broadhead impacts tissues, which exert a more potent rotational force on the broadhead's bevels than air, the arrow rotation rate increases, and whatever fletching one uses does not affect arrow rotation.
I have a brand new compound that I a have at 75 lbs and it's shoots a 300 best. 250 was super wobbly. I have a 200 grain head. On the arrow and 26.5 inch arrow.
FROM Dr Ed PLEASE READ
“The database has approximately 5,000 test shot records (not including 'focal study' shots looking at a specific arrow/broadhead feature), which comprise shots on animals from Impala, whitetail, and pig size up to Cape and Asian buffalo. There is also a database of actual bow kills on similar-sized animals, which now approaches 700 shot records.
We use the 'actual kills' database as a cross-reference to be sure that the testing outcomes accurately reflect the outcomes of actual hunting shots. We also have reports of hunting results sent in by multiple individuals, which number into the thousands. Antidotal information from other hunters is scoured for any useful trends that have been reported (such as the interesting fact that hunters shooting compound bows with draw weight of 70# and below report a significantly higher number of complete passthrough shots on Cape and Asian buffalo than do hunters shooting compound bows of higher draw weight).
As should be evident, there are many types of 'heavy bone' hits for which we have very detailed information. My original Study database tracked 118 data points on every shot, and the new testing database (2021 and forward) tracks 250 data points per shot. The databases are searchable, so we can compare the heavy bone penetration rate on impala and whitetail-sized animals to the heavy-bone penetration rate on buffalo rib shots, which are equal when the shot angle and bone impact angle are the same."
Off topic question, are you guys related?
The native Americans figured this stuff out 1000 years ago
@@romanmax8561 not necessarily. Modern archery has increased efficiency. You have to have an understanding of both kinetic energy and momentum, and their relationship. They are both products of mass and velocity; however, they are calculated different. A modern compound bow can take its stored energy and transfer it more efficiently to the arrow than can a traditional bow. KE is much higher with the compound arrow. The database mentioned above is based on traditional bow data. Increasing mass and shooting it from a traditional bow is the only reasonable means of increasing lethality. If you decrease the mass, the gain in velocity is not proportional because the energy transfer from the traditional bow to the arrow does not have the mechanical advantage that a modern compound bow does. And in just the last 5-10 years, mechanical efficiency has increased tremendously.
The idea of increasing arrow mass is important, but in the right place - with traditional archery gear. Science proves this to us.
-Which one will penetrate further, a 650gr arrow at 200fps or a 475gr arrow at 260fps? Science says it's the same. the 650gr arrow has KE of 57.72 and MO of 0.57 slugs. The 475gr arrow has KE of 71.29 and MO of 0.55 slugs. Two-hundredths of a slug is insignificant. A difference of 13.57 in kinetic energy is significant. Energy is transferred.
-For the 650gr arrow the time of flight to 30 yards is 0.45 seconds and it has 22.5" of drop from point of launch. For the 475gr arrow the time of flight is 0.35 seconds and it has 6.3" of drop from point of launch.
-A tenth of second is a lot of time for an animal that's reacting to an arrow in flight. That's a clean miss if you're aiming center mass on a deer at 30 yards, and not accounting for reaction time and drop distance of the animal. The difference in drop distance between the 475gr and 650gr arrows out to 30 yards is 16". For the 650gr arrow, the difference in drop between 20 yards and 30 yards is 16.4". That's a tremendous difference in margin of error, and has very meaningful effect on successful shot placement.
-Science says the 475gr arrow is the better choice. MO is the same, but KE is significantly higher, and time in flight difference is a tenth of second faster with the 475gr arrow. We know MO is what it takes to stop something in motion, and KE is amount of energy an object in motion has. The object with more energy will affect the momentum. Momentum has a direction. Once the arrow is deflected off of bone and is moving laterally, the MO is less important than the KE.
ED Ashby has forgotten more about archery than most people learn in a lifetime. Highly intelligent…Love to listen to him share his knowledge, and kudos to Ranch Fairy for taking his time to pick his brain and include us in on the conversations….. Thanks to both of you men…
Hey sir, first I want to say thank you for being hated by so many, but still speaking the truth. This is the first time I've seen Mr Ed Ashby in the wild, soaking up this video. I appreciate all the hard work you men are doing.
Ed is an American treasure for all bowhunters. Thank you Ed and Troy for taking the time to explain the difference between arrow mass on bone breaking and FOC penetration on meat, hide etc..
Thanks Ranch Fairy and Thank You Dr. Ashby for all both of you have and are doing for bow hunters! Science over opinions all day, every day.
This was an awesome interview. I hunt with longbow and a recurve, I went to heavy hunting arrows with high FOC a few years ago, I build my own arrows and I will NEVER go back to light weight arrows. Thanks for all you do for archery. God bless
Dr. Ed Ashby is definately on a different level. Science doesn't lie. The problem is that a lot of people fail to listen or simply can not comprehend. The information that he is supplying. Always great content.
“The animal gets a vote.”
That might be the best quote ever when it comes to a discussion on shot placement with someone who never misses or makes a bad shot.
Just the other day a big name RUclipsr posted a video missing an animal at 64 yards because the animal simply stepped out of the way after the shot. In the same video, he made a shot at over 100 yards and claimed that it was an ethical shot because he knew the capabilities of himself and his gear. The arguments in the comments were pretty wild about whether the long shot was ethical or not for various reasons, but no one mentioned the miss earlier in the video, or how animals have a say in determining where the arrow lands.
One of the few crossbow RUclipsrs learned a valuable lesson he made a shot on a deer with a high efficiency crossbow that was going well over 400 fps with over 0.7 slugs of momentum and the deer ducked the string enough for him to make a bad shot at 75 yards. If they can duck a crossbow they can duck a compound bow.
We will never be faster than their reaction time ever.
Archery is about how close not how far.
We need a setup that works in both plan A situations as well as plan B situations.
Spot on buddy!!!
That's just what we SEE too. The creators have total control over that. But yeah, it seems there's an unfortunate shift in archery-hunting media from "How close can we get?" to "How far can we hit?"
@@Mooskellunge truth as well.
I saw that video. He made a horrible shot at 100 at well. Shot it in the neck. He pulled that shot hard. I couldn't believe he took that second shot or never should have been out on TV ever!
I really appreciate how you are trying to think and choose your words. Really shows your respect for Doc's Wisdom!!!
100% spot on. He NAILS mechanical engineering as it applies to external and terminal ballistics. You’re doing the lord’s work, ranch fairy.
Thank you for always telling us the truth and showing us the results. You do a lot for the bow hunting community. Good luck on your hunting season this year
I could listen to Dr Ed drop knowledge all day!!!
I want to see John Dudley still argue these guys are saying form and tune don't matter as long as you have a 100 grain arrow. Oh wait, they never said that. How about where the they said weight is the only factor and speed doesn't matter. Oh wait, they didn't. This video helps highlight an often underrated aspect (as Ed calls it "high mechanical advantage") : A single bevel broadhead is simple the best tool for continuing through varying and unpredictable mediums. Period. This man is an absolute legend. Stop arguing people and listen. This man has probably first hand witnessed more wound channels than anyone one on the planet and he chooses to volunteer his wisdom. Thanks you Ed for sharing and thank you Troy for helping spread the wisdom!
Dudley is bought and paid for it seems. He's not stupid or inept so all he could be is indoctrinated or a shill. Given the money involved in his game I'd say it's clear.
A few years ago went to single bevel left 125 grain with left helical vanes total weight 520 grains. vap elite arrow along with the standard 50 grain half out. 14% foc. Very happy with the results
still have to hit your target, lots to take away here but i still want a flatter trajectory than a 650 gr arrow
Man! What a wealth of knowledge! Thanks so much for taking the time to sit down and film Dr Ed Mr Troy! God bless yall!
Absolutely love the videos with Ed. He gives great info and also a great story teller. Good story telling keeps you focused on the info.
This is honestly one of the best and most informative videos I’ve seen in a very long time. The basic study information was pretty clear and definitive, despite some fringe topics needing more study. Thanks!!!!
Dr Ed is looking good. We need to exploit this treasure of information for as long as we have him around.
Dr. Ashby is right. He has taken over 1,000 big game animals. That’s more than any bow shop salesman, or any manufacturer.
Thanks immensely Dr. Ashby for your research, and thanks Ranch Fairy for your efforts to get the word out.
Been hunting with Ashby inspired arrows since 2007 out of multiple recurves and longbows. Penetration has not been an issue, even with 45#@26" homemade selfbows. Thanks Ed for the many years of intensive studies on arrow lethality.
I never get tired of listening to some of the older hunters and Mr. Ashby is no excption thank you!
I am one of the 500 emails (a couple times) thanks for responding. There is sooo much info out there on tuning it is a bit daunting and confusing for a first timer. My arrows now punch bulletholes bare shaft and fletcher. I appreciate what you do.
That was just good stuff! Ed has a plethora of knowledge. Thank you Troy for studying under him and researching yourself. Great video!!!!
I would love to sit around a campfire and listen to Dr.Ed’s tell stories of his adventures.
Thank you!!
Wow Troy!!!
Love listening to the Dr..
The tissue resistance factor can be seen well with the child’s toy gooblab. The cornstarch and water. The faster you push into it the harder it becomes and more resistant. Thank you for your work Troy and Dr. Ed. You’ve greatly increased my archery skills
Awesome stuff! Thank you for recording this to preserve this knowledge for future use. You just can’t replace the testing he’s done over his lifetime.
I love that Dr Ashby is smoking a cigar and relaxing but he's ready to throw down at a moments notice.
You bet I am. BTW, that's a good El Presidente cigar.
Dr. Ed Ashby is a true gem and an impressive resource. I've learned something from him every time we've spoken. I appreciate this video. As you said, "from the horse's mouth"
Thanks for the time and effort to put this together, Troy.
The old saying, you never get too old to learn something thank you for sharing!!
Appreciate all the knowledge both of you gentlemen share with folks willing to listen.
Thank both of you so much!!🏹🦌👍🏻 Wish everyone would get on board for the sake af the animals we pursue 🤷♂️ IT MAKES SENSE PEOPLE !!!
Love this guy Ed, can listen to him all day and flick his ashes off his shirt lol, amazing knowledge and insight on what is possible with different approaches of weapons of
Choice
Thank you both. You do realize there will still be people to argue this. I understand completely. So much great information for all to up their chances when that moment comes.
Yip - people that shoot multiple light arrows in Asian buffalo only to not realise they lack penetration
Wonderful information. I truly hope this helps people understand better what y'all have been saying all along.
Man this was a damn good pod, I’d like to see more with Ed!!
Came here to get a little food for thought and ended up getting a KNOWLEDGE BOMB! Excellent work and delivery gentlemen.
18:00 Ed addresses modern compounds, which is what i was going to ask about. Its odd to me that we haven't been able to pin a momentum number to the bone breaking threshold of 650gr, that works above and below 650gr based on bow lbs and arrow speed etc. I would have to believe smaller boned animals like whitetail, should be easier to penetrate bone than a big game animal. Is there a way to quantify different animal bone density? How would we recreate a elk or deers bone density in a synthetic material for testing?
This….
He DOES address this. He used multiple arrow speeds and it didn’t matter. Under 650 grains COULD still break bone but it was 50%. It was 100% above 650. “Even a few grains above 650.”
Dr. Ashby’s study has plenty of different game animals (impala to cape buffalo. Healthy bone density will be the same between an elk or whitetail. They’re all hollow. Once the broadhead hits the bone, the split/crack is made. Higher FOC then determines the penetration.
There is no medium that can re-create living bone density. Shooting scapulas against a target, does not give the same results. Living tissue, blood, muscle, tendons and ligaments offer additional cohesive material that the arrow has to fly through.
@@ArchersAnonymous-nb4ym the momentum number is 0.7-0.8 slugs get that going as fast as it can and that’s your new setup.
Yes there is different bone density between animals if all your going to do is hunt 1 animal in your entire life and never go after another than a 450 TAW single bevel head is all you’ll ever need for that deer.
When you want to venture to other animals it only makes sense to have a hunting arrow this is in the 500 grain range to 600 grain range test your arrows get the numbers and collect your own data and hit it perfectly flying as fast as it can utilizing most to all of your bows potential. This will increase your arrow lethality.
One large solar flare and WAY more folks will be appreciateing this info. Thanks Ranch Fairy and Dr. Ashby! Just signed up for $5 per month to the foundation. Well earned!
@@jesseherbert2585 truth we are on a verge of SHTF any moment now solar flares is just one possibility. It’s why I always have fixed heads too. Mechs are great while we can still get them replaced and such but when this society falls solid fixed will be what we need.
Solid gold right here.
FOC makes it harder to redirect the arrow... 🤯. That's a great statement.
Another awesome and informative video thank you Troy and Doctor ed
It's great seeing a man who has seen and done things we could never touch sitting.... Smoking a clean cigar.... While trying to teach us how to improve our gear. It's way lacking today
The elders have have the wisdom for sure.
WOW! Most excellent video. Gonna watch it a few more times!
I find it interesting that the target archers who turn to hunting have to tell us 'how it is' instead of understanding arrow flight, more fps seems to be their way of dealing with everything, they don't understand not everyone pulls an 80 lb bow. Thanks to Dr Ed & RF for their time.
Great video! An absolute wealth of knowledge contained here!
Dr. Ed Ashby seems like one of the coolest men alive.
I don't bow hunt, reloader and rifle hunter I understand this
Physics is physics, and ballistics is physics.
For the 80lb+ guys having tuning issues. I had to jump to the 170 spine Grizzly Stiks. My bows have been APA King Cobra’s at 80-83lbs. I have 30” draw and run 30” 750/850 grain arrows with 200/300gr heads. One thing I see a lot of people not consider is brace height and cam design. Shorter brace height and more aggressive cams that you typically see on “speed bows” will impart more stress on the arrow shaft, especially if you have high and extreme FOC. The first time I tried tuning heavy arrows I was using 240spine and went to multiple shops within a 200m radius with no success. Just for the hell of it tried a 170 and found the sweet spot.
Yes. The rate at which the bowstring accelerates the arrow affects the arrow spine required for it to tune.
Look at Day Six arrows. They are thicker and stiffer than others. The quality and consistency is great. That is, if you want to try something else.
It’s amazing how many try to still discredit science and facts or try to shame those that just want the average Joe archer to be better in the woods.
Thank you Troy for all that you do, thank you Ed for helping teach the knuckle head too lol.
It’s sad that people forget the success of archery in the past and today they want to make these amazing efficient machines suck. It blows my mind.
What a Great Interview of information…..Thank you Ed
I'm a PH.D. materials scientist who got into hunting in my thirties. There's a decent chance we're going to have issues with our power grid in the near future, thanks to our weakening magnetic shield, and activity on the sun. I would not be surprised if in my remaining time here i see people appreciating this research far more than they thought they might... Just signed up for the five dollar a month donation. Well earned! "Honor all spilled blood".
Thank you, Sir.
This was awesome.. and wanted to say o have 3 hunting bows all 80-82 pounds and have zero issues bare shaft tuning..
2nd comment.. whoo! Hey man. Love the vids. The information is always coming from the right place.. coming from a medium light weight arrow guy with good FOC.
Thanks Ed! Thanks Troy!
The doctor is packing HEAT
Always more to think about and work on. Thank you.
Makes perfect sense . Great video thanks Troy and Dr Ashby .
!Lightbulb Moment! It's like slapping water with your hand. The harder you slap it, the more surface tension of the water resists your hand. Same with a projectile on animal tissue. Watching this video made it click for me! Thank you. @ranchfairy
Back when I was still hunting before my life went to crap and shoulder injuries kicked my butt, I was shooting a PSE Polaris round cam bow, finger release, instinctive.
I played with tuning the bow and my arrows a long time before achieving perfect arrow flight.
All said and done I had to bush my bow up to 80 pounds draw weight and was able to successfully bare shaft tune my arrows and achieved perfect arrow flight with both bare shaft and fletched arrows .
I have no idea what my arrow weight was or my foc as I didn't understand all that back then.
All I know is I was getting the performance I was looking for.
My bow and arrow flight was extremely slow in the eyes of compound shooters.
My shots on deer were hard hitting and passed through bone with ease.
My shots would pass through deer so effortlessly that I would see my arrow stick in the ground by the time the deer reacted to being hit.
Thank you Both So Much!!
This was been an excellent video with excellent information. I still stand by my original thoughts. Bow hunters used to shoot 700 ish grain wooden arrows using old recurve bows in the 50's and 60's and many of them got full pass throughs on moose, deer, black bear, elk etc. Dr Ashby's concept of FOC and 650 grains minimum is exactly right. It would have helped bow hunters back then. However, in today's world we still need to focus on perfect arrow flight, arrow construction and enough speed to get the job done. Super flat shooting arrows only counts when competing for paper shots to win tournaments.
Bows in the 60s were launching them arrows at 150 fps and shots were limited to 20 yards. Modern bows produce so much more kenetic energy.
Great interview!
Great discussion. How varied were the weights and types of bows that shot the arrows? any idea on the variety of speed of the arrows?
Now you got me interested in the bullet side of things with the twist lol
@@hunteranglin3750
I’ve got the gun he gave me. Gonna be doing some testing!
@RanchFairy Yes! Very interested in the gun/bullet testing!
Awesome stuff for sure! Didn't realize that the increase in velocity that I gain from heavy draw weight doesn't actually benefit me that much.
Trajectory
Guns, bows, and cigars....i'm in.
Enjoyed this one. Ill go sign up and donate.
Thanks again Troy and DR Ed very informative and helpful.I don't know if you guys know what is about to happen here in south Australia, Australia come 1st of December 2024 south Australian government is putting in place a total ban on bow hunting even on your own private property we have put forward all of Dr Ed's studies in to the human and ethical way of dispatching animals they the South Australian government won't recognise his work !! It's a damn shame what next ban fishing and camping STOP the ban sorry for the rant Troy keep up the good work mate you've helped me in so many ways bloke and I appreciate it
The heavy weight up front is storing kinetic energy given to it from the bow. The arrow and fletching is the tail stabilizing flight. When you add constant thrust it exaggerates the importance of a proper foc. If you have a rear of center on a model rocket it will tumble.
Spot on.
My 700+ grain 250 spine victory rip tko arrows shot out of a 70# mathews bow are ultra deadly.They shoot like darts.They are not the best thing for 40+ yard shots but I don't take those anyways.Also the tune up really well.
Great video Troy, thanks.
Good content given Doc Ed's presence. It does seem like you, Troy, are trying to cover your tracks on getting folks on the FOC train several years back; you did admit with Dudley that your bow "experience" was limited. Didn't care for the way Dudley spoke degradely "at" you but Dudley is an experienced bow subject matter expert. I'll stay watching ya Troy but with a bit of reluctance.
This should have been one of your FIRST videos years ago before hyping up the FOC.
Ashby looks like he could be Ranch Fairy’s Dad.
Thank you to each of you who chose to subscribe to ABF's free newsletter and/or donate to the Ashby Bowhunting Foundation. I had made individual thank you comments, but I see many of those are missing today, along with numerous of the other comments/answers I had posted. Neither Troy nor I know why that is happening.
Thank you for another fantastic video.
Ive been shooting 605 grain arrows for a few years, and have yet to have one fail to penetrate bone. This includes a frontal shot on a mule deer that broke the femur on its way out. I dont understand the supposed lack of a momentum threshold. I cant throw a 650 gn arrow through a deer. Clearly velocity plays some roll. What am I missing?
What was the weight and foc of that blunt that killed the moose?
only once ive seen someone mention to tune cams to be into same direction on entire draw, dosnt really matter how much out or in, but if they dont stay in same line, its impossible to tune
on my cheapo bow it became significally harder to tune at about 56-57lb, this could be cable wear too tho, got too many shots on em
I have that same holster... De Santis. Fits all my sidearms even it if not made for that model.
As always when you and Ed have these talks, and I've listened to other content providers interview Ed, the depth/level of information is astounding. These interviews with impromptu questions allowing for more detailed explanations makes it possible to really understand what the message is. Awesome interview!
For these tests with arrows above and below the 650 mark, specifically what bone was it tested on?
I have long argued the increase of FOC as helpful. Many have disagreed but I think it depends on what one wants to do. I have built Lonewolf Custom Bows for more than 40 years. As a Traditional Bow manufacturer serving mostly hunters and not Olympic style target archers the more FOC helps when tuning arrows for finger shooting and broadhead shooting. Testing will bear this out. Our style is more dynamic than an Olympic shooter shooting at a distant target with sights and a special release and style. It's different!
It is fact that a the FOC that has been taught for years will fly more balanced further for say " Olympic style'
Than how we shoot. These people have many adjustments where Traditional bows don't. I have trained Shooters for decades to bare shaft. Do that correctly and the finger shooting Traditional Bow shooter will certainly see advantages.
I love that quote..the animal gets a vote!
Awesome video thanks for sharing that
Outstanding Video.
Thank You, Men!
Christ Bless!
I wonder how much a longer draw length affects or changes the bone breaking threshold. I would assume it has to change it some.
So if I understand correctly if we r anything below 650 then it really don’t matter? Like if I had a 525 or 575 grain arrow it’s going to perform about the same as my 480 grain arrow? None will break bone and all have roughly 50% chance of getting through bone if I’m using a good 3/1 sharp head with perfect flight? Am I understanding this correctly?
Both arrows under 650gr total mass have a 50% chance of breaking the bone but a higher FOC arrow under 650gr has a higher probability of being in the successful 50% rather than the failed 50%.
Ed speaks about this at 10 mins 30 sec.
Yes that’s why I ask the question cause if u was to have a ligther arrow say 500 grain and a 18-20% FOC and a heavier 550-575 with a 18-20% FOC and both arrows had the same or similar FOC both arrows are under 650 so both have a 50% chance at breaking bone so wouldn’t it be better to run the slightly lighter arrow with the same FOC as the heavier arrow so you got more speed and better trajectory? Thats why I ask the question and RF said he will ask DR Ed so I’m looking forward to that. Again I’m trying to learn and trying to figure this out
50% of breaking what bone ? What exact bone ? Sounds like irrelevant data , so may variables in “breaking bone “ bone varies in thickness and density per animal, looks like other than the frontal shot Chris too witch idk what he was thinking, the couple decent shots he did make had plenty penetration . And proved lethal Just like my 480g Arrows do in elk
@joevandivner9704 no because the heavier arrow you use under the 650 threshold the more probability you have in being in the successful 50% of breaking a heavy bone rather than the failed 50%.
@@joevandivner9704you can shoot either arrow. Or the lightest arrow for your desired trajectory. Pass throughs happen ALL the time with light arrows. It clearly works at killing animals until you hit a bone (animals are full of them).
Mr Ashby gives me a tiny bit more confidence in my FMJ I have left with this podcast. Just gotta put 250 up front. I’ve done ok with FMJ’s, on Whitetail bucks not pigs.
I am running 625 grains on my crossbow arrows, which seems to be ideal for my bow. The insert and broadhead make up 300 grains of that weight.
With AirBows, the bolt is shot by pushing air pressure from the tip of the bolt...Is FOC still valid for this as they say the bolt does NOT bend?...Have you tested the 600FPS Benjamin M600 AirBow?...
It is once it's flying, which is an aerodynamic principle. "An arrow is always flying". "FOC makes it harder to redirect"
- Ed
FOC is important in any flying object, from the Space X rocket, F 22 Raptor, and rifle bullets to arrows, boomerangs, and the darts at your local bar.
I understand that 650g is the threshold to reliably break bone. Does arrow speed ever factor into the equation? I shoot 25.5" draw and 53 pounds draw weight... I mainly hunt hogs. A 650g arrow with my specs would probably be sub 200 fps. Suggestions on what total weight arrow I should be using?
At a given arrow weight and assuming perfect arrow flight for all arrows, the faster the arrow, the more force and momentum it will have. However, you do not need to worry that your arrow velocity drops below 200 fps. Most all my approximately 1000 big game animals were taken with arrows having a velocity of 150 to 160ps.
It is important to remember that at a given arrow weight and assuming perfect arrow flight for all arrows, the faster the arrow, the more force and momentum it will have. However, increasing arrow velocity increases the tissue's resistance force to penetration. A doubling of arrow speed (with a given arrow) quadruples the tissue's resistance to the arrow's penetration. On the other hand, increasing arrow mass (for a given profile arrow at a given arrow velocity) increases the arrow's momentum without increasing the tissue's resistance force.
As far as arrow penetration is concerned, not all momentum makes an equal contribution. While increased arrow velocity does increase arrow momentum, it has two downsides when it comes to "useful arrow momentum": (1) it increases the tissue's resistance to penetration, and (2) velocity is rapidly degraded as the arrow penetrates the tissue(s); thus velocity's potential contribution to the "useful arrow momentum" rapidly decreases as the arrow penetrates. Arrow mass remains constant during penetration, and its contribution to the "useful arrow momentum" remains constant.
At what yardage is the study being done. Is at 20 out to 50 or more.
@@aaronthompson2906
To add control the data set - 20 yards for all shots.
Just started to dabble into the heavy arrows... 27in draw... 472 total grains.. 242 fps at 65lb... i really have no idea what im doing.. but the arrow shoots lights out.. is this set up good... bad? ( mathews Z7 extreme)
@@Coyotehunter243
Add good broadhead like a Magnus black hornet
Make sure broadheads fly accurately
Take responsible shot angles and you’re good to go.
If the broadheads don’t fly. Troy@ranchfairy.com - I’ll help ya
Dr Ed… always strapped! 😂
All that being said about the bullets and how twist rate made that much difference I wonder if there's a difference in arrows between strait or nearly straight fletch and heavy helical
I do not have hard data to back it up, but with feather fletching, which has a natural curve that induces some arrow rotation, with extreme and ultra-extreme FOC arrows, I use a straight fletch. With plastic vanes it is necessary to add some offset and/or helical to the fletching to induce arrow rotation. Using a single-bevel broadhead, in and of itself, induces some slow arrow rotation through the air, and I attempt to get as close as possible to the same degree of arrow rotation from the fletching. However, it is sometimes necessary to have fletching offset and/or helical to achieve perfect arrow flight, and achieving absolute perfect arrow flight should, first and foremost, be your guiding factor.
When a single-bevel broadhead impacts tissues, which exert a more potent rotational force on the broadhead's bevels than air, the arrow rotation rate increases, and whatever fletching one uses does not affect arrow rotation.
This has been interesting
Thanks
I have a brand new compound that I a have at 75 lbs and it's shoots a 300 best. 250 was super wobbly. I have a 200 grain head. On the arrow and 26.5 inch arrow.
Great video thank you Troy and Ed
Great video. 👍
The shotgun cigar holder is the best!!!!
Stay strapped!