Cliff and Troy, really enjoyed this video. So much to unwrap. Watched the one where both of you were on with ED. I grew up watching Fred Bear, Ben Pearson, and Howard Hill. I've been involved with archery for 56 years. Now at 70, finally retired from healthcare. Troy, appreciate your review of anatomy and relationship to animals and hunting. So spot on. Bilateral hemo-pneumothorax is lethal, if you can't breath and the chest cavity fills with blood and air leaking out, the compression on the heart leads to cardiac tamponade, also very lethal without intervention. I've shot all types of bows and like my trad bows as well as my new modern compound. Started with a PSE, then to a Jennings, then to a Quadra-flex (all with little let off), to now my modern (last 5 years compound with lots of let off). Cliff, I also shot a WB and will stick with it. Have a Fred Asbell, Colorado Bighorn, custom bow that he made for me when I had my own custom arrow business. I started with wood shafts and have progressed now to carbon. Love shooting that bow at 53# @28". Cliff, as a guide, you have a unique opportunity to help the archery industry by compiling your own research. As a guide you could collect data from your bowhunters on the types of equipment used. Types of bows, poundage, shooting method (release or fingers), types of broad heads, distance, recovered or not, distance traveled for those that are recovered, organs impacted, and type of animal. Troy, appreciate your contribution and approach to hunting and improving outcomes of success with lethality. My job was to save lives. The one thing I stress with my sons and grandsons is become a better hunter and get close to your animals. Have respect for them and always practice one shot kills, whether that is with a bow or a firearm. I don't like distance shooters. That's not hunting in my opinion. My archery kills have all been under 25 yards. I hunt Colorado and it's become harder to draw tags. Watched the big game rule changes since '68 to now. Now that I'm retired, I'll look for other opportunities to hunt out-of-state. Thanks for what you both do for the sport of hunting.
Good interview. It took me a while to get my head around Troy's concept and to understand how FOC works and what components are necessary to achieve better FOC for better arrow flight and penetration. Now FOC is one thing but to Troy's point, momentum and broadhead edge durability/retention dictate penetration. The rest is up to the hunter/shooter to get the rest of the equation correct, bow tune and form. I've been bowhunting and shooting competitive archery 40 years. I consider myself an average shooter and know my personal limitations. That being said, since I increased total arrow weight an additional 125gr and up to 175 gr with 18.7/21.2FOC, looking at my pin gap distance, they are tighter at 40-60 yards. Hence, the arrow is carrying more KE due to correct FOC, mass weight along with perfect arrow flight, is not dropping as much at those ranges. I'm happier now than I was 39 years before. Just find the best set up and adapt. Cheers. Good content.
@@TradTech I love troys and Ashby’s first quote they ever said. “Go as heavy as you can with a trajectory you still find suitable for you.” This quote says it all. You follow most to all of the 12 factors you will increase your lethality 20 fold. I have tried the 650 and higher myself but I just didn’t like them I didn’t like the way they felt or flew, 600ish grains on the crossbow is perfect. 650 ish on the recurve is not ideal but I have no desire to change because when the arrows bend I turn them into 20” bolts lol. I mostly use crossbow now. But 550 would be perfect maybe even 525 for the old 50 lb survival bow would be good.
Getting my first bow this month and hoping next year can be my first real hunt. Your videos have been a great help. Thank you. And thanks for your insights here
People can laugh and say what they want about Troy aka the ranch fairy but one thing for certain he has done is make people think about the broadhead they use and how sharp it is.
Keep in mind, a lot of archers shoot 60-120 yards for practice. Whether it is to make the 40 yard shot seem easier due to increasing your confidence. Or if you shooting TAC where there are targets past 100+ yards. Shot placement is king and the most important item on the list. IMO We should not be poo-pooing each other's way of hunting. If it not your cup of coffee, don't drink it! I am a short-draw archer, 26.5" @73lbs, so I don't have the "power stroke" of an archer with 29-30" draw lengths. lol My arrows are 420 grains with a COC solid fixed blade broadhead. There is next to no way that I would be effective in shooting a 600-700 grain arrow. We need to be cognizant to not throw out weight numbers without taking into consideration the archer/bow factors as part of the equation. For the record, I don't shoot deer, turkey, or elk past 50 yards. (Waay too many variables in a situation for me to take that 50yd shot) Not every draw length and draw weight in a compound bow setup can shoot an affective and tuned 600-700 grain arrow for hunting. Another analogy, that my local archery shop told me to take into consideration years ago is. If you are 20 yards from one of your "friends". You had the choice of them throwing a baseball or a 5lb medicine ball at you, as hard as they could throw. Which would you choose? It's not the only way to consider arrow weights, but something for you to consider for you hunting setup, style, and fit for use. For me, I try to find the balance of maintaining momentum at the point of impact, with shooting flat as possible, from a tuned bow and arrow. In short, when we review good and informative resources such as this, we need to take into account all of the variables, as the SMEs don't have the time to cover all of them.
How are you able to shoot a 420 grain arrow It must be paper thin Is all I'm saying like I want something that I can hit still with and it not blow up That's it Um and I've experienced that Eastern access arrows I blew every one of them up when I first started because of Mrs or you know shooting through a Target or something like that I switched to Victory vap Elite arrows which are a little bit heavier but there are 250 spine and They're thick And they hit really really hard and I'm shooting 250 grains up front And it will break stuff I know a lot of guys are really good But 420 grains is a hard thing to achieve With an arrow that's going to have structural Integrity How many of your arrows break when you shoot elk or when you miss
@@Gibsonlife573 … I shoot the Victory Velocity Extreme in a 300 spine cut down to 25.5 inches which makes it stiffer. I use a 75 gr half out that covers the front. I shoot Tac fletchings with a 100 grn point. Total arrow weight is a little over 400 grns with 19% FOC . My draw length is 27”, and for me they fly and penetrate great.
These are my exact arrow builds: Method ZMR 350 w/3 Fletch Super Sabre GPI: 8.9 gr Method OPC Insert/Outsert: 54 gr Arrow Length (Carbon to Carbon): 25.5" Arrow Length (Throat to Outsert): 26.5" Broadhead is G5 Montec 100grn Arrow Weight with tip (Std Nock): 415 grns Speed: 259 fps @ 64.8lbs FOC: 14.3% Arrow Weight with tip (Halo Lighted Nock): 422 grns FOC (Halo Lighted Nock): 12.1% Valkyrie Reign 350 w/4 Valkyrie Promax Vanes GPI: 7.8 gr Method OPC Insert/Outsert: 22 gr Arrow Length (Throat to Outsert): 25.75" Broadhead is a Jagger 180grn Arrow Weight with tip (Std Nock): 428 grns Speed: 253 fps @ 64.8lbs FOC: 18.1% Arrow Weight with tip (Halo Lighted Nock): 435 grns Speed (Halo Lighted Nock): 247 fps @ 64.8lbs FOC (Halo Lighted Nock): 17.1% With a Method arrow 2 weeks ago, I shot a 2.5-year-old buck at 37 yards. The arrow went through the deer and stuck in a tree. lol
Don't forget to mention this if it is a right spun right served string it is going to clock the arrow automatically left so you need to shoot a left bevel left helicopter Arrow Chipotle the natural rotation of that Arrow otherwise they have showed it on high speed camera if you put a right helical on a string that is spun up clockwise and a served clockwise the arrow literally takes off left stops mid-flight and the fletchings corrected and start to spin it to the right lot of the reason why people don't want to shoot a left bevel Broadhead is because it comes unscrewed you can put some plumbers tape on it wax anything like that you know
I agree with most of what the Ranch Fairy says about weight and FOC. ASSUMING, every arrow comes out straight (which is rule #1), a higher weight and FOC will fly better in wind. Shaft diameter also affects that. But higher FOC absolutely drives the arrow, even when wind is pulling the tail sidways. The only thing an educated western archer needs to decide is, what is the acceptable trajectory. Or as Troy says, what is the acceptable momentum when it reaches the target. Cause that's all the energy you have to kill the bull. I've found that a 500gr arrow flying at 270fps is a good arrow until 75yrds. Then the momentum falls off, and I'm more likely to miss low. I'd rather have more energy on target and limit my trajectory. Early in my yrs, i argued flat trajectory vs heavier bullet, and i find it interesting that i get full pass throughs on mature bulls after i started shooting heavier arrows with better broadheads. I cant get on the 600+gr arrow, but i have found 500gr is a sweet spot for me. Also, consider .166 arrows for less wind drift. It is substantial in heavy winds. I tested 6/5/4mm arrows in 30mph winds at 45yrds. The lighter 6mm arrow drifted 18" and missed the target in that wind. I enjoy testing these theories. Always be tinkering...
I’ve gone full Fairy and back. I’ve found middle ground in 450-475 with a good mechanical. I reflected on a book I read years ago. Life at Full Draw by Chuck Adams. It would be pure gold to get his take on today’s trends compared to what he used. To me his opinion would be iron clad.
Cliff, if you haven't watched any RUclips with Paul Medel, aka the ElkNut, you are missing out. He and his son and buddies have killed over a hundred elk, mostly here in Idaho, with OTC tags. These guys are extremely lethal. If anybody can throw some decades long perspective on this, he certainly can. Both from a very compelling arrow set-up, calling and hunting strategy point of view. He is very animated and has nothing to sell but a very effective elk sounds and tactics app for I think $4.99! Interviewing him would produce a great segment.
As a whitetail hunter a test im interested in seeing, and maybe troy has done this, is pin gap from 20 to 30 and 40 yards with different arrow weights. My concern is thinking a deer is at 22 but hes really at 26 or 27 or visa versa and missing an inch or 2 high or an inch too low
This is a really important point. This the number 1 reason to shoot a normal weight arrow. Range error is a massive issue. I rarely ever get the opportunity to range in advance the specific animal. It's usually an opening in advance and I'm realistically within 5 yds at shot. Between my pin selection and estimated range. This is could be the difference between a lethal shot and not. My first bull if I was any heavier I would have not been successful.
@@CEMuhlbeier the difference between the two was a average of about 1 1/2” so if you miss judge with a lighter set up your still going to miss about 2”
@@CEMuhlbeier I think the actual issue troy is trying to get across on his whole channel is, are you more likely to hit bone, or miss judge your yardage? And if you do one of those things how does each arrow react and what are your odds success, a plus or minus 1 1/2” difference on elevation on impact or the fact that one arrow has the capability to constantly breach heavy bone and the other does not
I've definitely increased my arrow weight, but 650 is too heavy for western hunting. Pin gaps too far. I think I"m at 550 with Single Bevel 2 Blade broadheads. I've still never seen an elk hit well that didn't die. Cliff is correct. Two Lungs kills them every time. Still haven't heard a full frontal go bad either. Full frontal better than 1/4 to and I think most elk are 1/4 to instead of completely broadside when people lose them.
Awesome interview man. Not everyone may agree with Troy but it’s still great information. Killed an elk or not the guy is doing the work to experiment and help out the average guy, not just the super hunters.
The problem is, the average guy needs to practice year round, and actually get some professional archery training before he decides to go in the woods and shoot an animal. There’s no magical arrow weight and broadhead that’s going to fix poor archery skill on a hunt, and you definitely aren’t going to get that from Troy.
@@progradepainting3755I would completely agree with year round practice and Troy doesn’t say anything about not practicing. He’s advocating arrow lethality in case something doesn’t go perfectly. Which if you have ever hunted you know it doesn’t always go perfect. I see idiots all over the place with rifles losing animals too because they suck at shooting. Nobody is arguing against practice.
Cliff thank you for sharing your elk hunting knowledge and Troy thank you for sharing your knowledge on arrow flight and broadhead performance on animals. While Troy may not have killed elk personally his information on live animals is spot on and matches my own experience on elk. I have found that decreasing my shooting distance and increasing my arrow lethality (Troy setup) does directly increase my harvest rate. Love the short tracking jobs as well.
Great interview Cliff ! Always great to see the perspective of experience combined with data. I can tell you first hand that you absolutely can shoot longer ranges (100yds) accurately with heavier arrows. (600gn) ish. I also agree with Cliff that 30ys and in should be the goal. Give yourself the best chance to harvest a bull - hunt smart, be fit, know your equipment and its limitations, work within those and then its up to mother nature ! Again, great conversation and I hope to see Troy, Ed and yourself on another Podcast !
People won’t buy the 3:1 single bevel cause of the blood trail. No one’s mentioned this in troys videos but that’s a big factor for the single bevel. Not big blood trails and everyone gets off on a lot of blood for some reason. But to that point, I’ve seen it first hand. Shot a buck, one lung liver with a 200gr single bevel cutthroat and we didn’t get blood for a good while. So it’s kind of up in the air for me. I carry one 150gr single bevel in my quiver for thick spots or spots where the shot might be quick. I carry one sevr for rainy days and tooth of the arrows for normal days. So 🤷🏼♂️
At 47 mins, troy discusses bullet rotation and how scientists believe ieven if the bullet stopped it would rotate. This is correct. Im not encourageing it, but i seen a 40 S&W shot into an iced over pond, and we could see the bullet spinning only 1/2 inch into the ice.
I hate it when people talk about the animals jumping the “string”. There’s been plenty of data showing they’re reacting to the sound of the fletching, not the string.
I think you’re missing the point because they don’t jump either they drop… fact of the matter is they move. And they are reacting to the sound of the shot regardless what aspect it is. Until someone does a study shooting animals with bareshafts where is the proof that it is the fletching noise?
I'm not ever talking about nobody in a bad way but if you watch Brian calls last elk hunt I think it was his last one where he finally dropped that big tag as he hits the help with the arrow you watch the Arrow bin and then went back and go in just a little bit more and they didn't know they didn't know things going to get that animal he made a semi poor shot on the second Arrow they did recover it but it blew my mind when I washed the arrow it and literally stopped Bend and then straighten up and go in just a tad bit more pretty sure he was not shooting no 550 Green Arrow and I'm pretty sure he was shooting a mechanical
Deer don't jump string. Deer duck and dive because they hear the arrow coming. Make a quiet arrow, small strait vanes and broad heads that are solid and align vanes with blades. Sample, 450 gr 4mm arrow, [3] 1/2 x 2 inch stiff vanes megameat head vanes aligned with blades 70lb bow. These arrows are quiet, fly like darts, penetrate fantastic and cut a HUGE hole. Helical vanes and vented broad heads make more noise than a train whistle.
I could shoot a coke bottle lid at 10 yards in my back yard but gut shot a hind at 30 uphill on a freestone steam but blood disappeared on opposite side of river uphill 10 years ago. I couldn’t recover her with my thongs and long bow in summmer. I recovered fletching so broadhead penetrated but guck me she ran more than 150m or more. I ran into parks gma and vicpol a month ago and find myself drawing my ling bow again
1:22:30 Of course somebody like Troy doesn’t think more practice is needed for people to avoid losing animals. I’ve seen him shoot. He’d better just stick to his 17 yards under a feeder pigs, he isn’t hitting anything beyond that no matter what arrow he’s using.
I'm shooting at vpa they're cheaper one but I'm going up to their S7 tool steel they call it carbon steel but I've talked to him and it is S7 tool steel and that is the most shock resistant steel there is if I mistaken
I shoot a whisker biscuit and have been laughed at. Reality is it only slows my arrow by 3-5 fps. Field &Stream did accuracy tests - drop away fans actually shot WB slightly more accurate! So no diffs in accuracy. So I just smile and say next season. Target shooting where 1/2 a mm makes a difference is different.
Also look at Josh bowmar he's pulling 90 lbs shooting probably at 7 800 grain arrow with his new mechanical up front he did just kill a couple Kate Buffalo but they were perfect shots he hit them exactly where he needed to
I’ve been archery hunting for 20 years, and the problem with recovery of animals, has a lot more to do with archery skill and experience, then it does with arrow weight and what broadhead you use. There’s no magic fix. The problem with Troy, is he puts zero emphasis on what actually matters, which is proper form, tuning, ranging animals, and in general the art of archery. This is where it just gets totally off into the weeds. I’ve seen really good archers, with a wall full of elk using a 380-ish grain arrow and an old school muzzy. And then I’ve seen dudes with super heavy arrows, and 150 grain single bevel, who can’t hit a wheel barrel at 40 yards.
@@stevebooher7419 no, he’s said multiple times, he views a bow as just a delivery device, and even though our modern bows are able to be tuned the specific arrow we use, Troy wants everyone to go backwards and tune the arrow to the bow. All he’s done is just increase the arrow weight until the ridiculous foc compensates for lack of bow tuning.
Kendall gray done a video the other day where he overlapped his shot and then a shot and a deer that he had taken and time to both of them right over top of each other and it was like 3 or something something crazy.3 seconds of a second or something
I mean no disrespect to Mr Fairy he knows his arrows for sure just wondering if he has taken some feed back from the bow side of things? He really does seem like a hell of a guy I think people can get uptight a bit when it comes to set ups and dudes with opinions let’s not go down that rabbit hole. Thanks for the response!
@CliffGray I really didn't come out of that interview that Dudley was condescending. I picture it like this - imagine I make a RUclips channel about guiding. I'm really just started out but I make my channel as controversial as possible. Talking about as much crap about the guiding industry as possible. Saying you've all got it so wrong and if you listen to my alternative ways you'll be so successful. Even though I don't even hunt how you do, I know what's best. Because, well, because I'm obviously right. Then you have to get on a podcast with me and take me incredibly serious when you've been doing it your whole life. I'm not much of a Dudley fan but it took Dudley a lot to not lose his head completely. Troy's channel isn't about being objective and science. He is deliberately controversial and is no perfectly innocent character. I'm not a super light mechanical guy. Nor am I a heavy 2b guy. I strike a balance in builds.
I would like to see Troy shoot a western TAC and then comment on how his philosophy is/is not applicable to the types of shots seen in western hunting.
Yeah, he's way out of his element. If you hunting at a feeder at 17 yds his advice is great. Outside of that, listen to the wide community who's done it.
Troy's experiments don't qualify as "control" experiments... nor did Ashby's. Ed admitted it was his observations and that actual penetration on a living animal was impossible to create a control on, because of the many uncontrollable variables.
Dr.Ed literally opened a continent to bow hunting with his study.Then there are these comments kinda laughable and sad at the same time.Indians killed bison with heavy chipped stone that surgeon's still use as it is the sharpest edge on the planet for the application at times.Just let that sink in a bit.Most importantly is gonna be shot placement for sure but we all know that doesn't always happen.You hunt enough you will have some mistakes its gonna happen!Reminds me alot of the .45 to the 9mil argument both kill but i lean .45 slower and more proven in stopping with one shot.
You'll have to watch that film it's like 2 hours long but he kills the bull at the end of Brian called gritty bowmen and watch what his Arrow does and I'm telling you I'm pretty sure he was shooting a mechanical Broadhead and it was not no heavy arrow and you literally watched the arrow hit the pool damn near fletchings come around and slap people go back to straight and damn near come to a complete stop it went in a little bit more 15 in of arrow sticking out
I say it all the time you'll see a lot of younger dude starting out or stitches even seek one man like punching the trigger are shooting a fixed blade instead of a mechanical if you screw a fix plate on there and shoot that exact same shot where the hell is your arrow going to hit you watch these guys shoot these animals in the arrow goes in seven or eight inches 10 inches whatever and they're worried to death because they think they shoulder shot the deer matter of fact we just had to sneak up on a big buck to put it down because he did hit it in the shoulder and he admitted it right but if you would have had a fixed blade single bevel even if it's only a 125 okay and let's say you got an additional 75 grains up front and you know how to tune your bow that is the biggest thing about it all you are shooting a compound bow learn what you're shooting most guys don't even know how to check timing 18,000 and they got 24 string count or they got a 14,000 Center serving with a 28 string count don't understand if they're bottom cam is hitting first that you need to put a twist into that cable
It is obvious that Dudley is good at what he does. However, it's equally as obvious that he is arrogant and for sale. He is selling his ideas, I reference Dudley as the most for sale archer on the market! Everything needs a strong dose of salt...
I like Dudley’s archery marksmanship videos. They have been a huge help to me. Having said that, his interview with Troy was piss poor…. Just from a decency perspective. I hope that John was just having a bad day or there was some other explanation.
@@bigz5262nobody can argue physics. Light arrows shed momentum rapidly. At long distance you are reducing lethality - no matter who you are or how accurate you shoot.
475 gr arrow going 278. Loses 32 fps at 100 yards. Goes from 82# KE to 60# .585 momentum to .518 Similar numbers have been stated in comments on multiple videos. So you arent worried about 50 fps? Arent worried about 8-10 more inches of trajectory variance to contend with over flight path?(Hunting ranges) But your worried about .518 to your magic .60 momentum number? And thats at 100 yards. .082 lb ft/sec. So 8 hundreths, or 8/100😂 Stop following the frauds and use your brain people. The dude blatantly lied, stated false truths, or exaggertaed at least 20 times in this video alone. And this shit has been going on for five years, shout out to dudley who sniffed it out 5 minute in, tried to keep his cool and eventually put him in his place. Some of yall still sniffing. Pew!
@chadyoak1633 I don't know it all, and their is some good info there, but man so much bullshit. In the testing he bypassed completely the sweet spot most people are shooting. Intentionally who knows. He used different arrows completely, not just combinations, anyone that has done any testing knows that changing a type of vane alone can alter flight via the ballistic profile. Used 65#, 28.5 draw which of course will favor slightly heavier setups numbers wise. I learned years ago that my arrows hit higher at longer ranges as well. It was my form, and me compensating for the peep angle. Same thing as when people don't get low at the hips shooting from a treestand. Not sure because I didn't watch but it's definetly a phenomenon. Then you add the salesman side of Troy to things and I just don't trust his testing. I didn't trust Levi morgan and crews testing of the LRP either. Very biased. Archers advantage software is cheap people. Go punch in some numbers and look at some things. Then go in the backyard and test it.
@ I agree with ya completely. I usually get a good middle ground. Rx8 ultra, 65 pounds, 31.5” draw, 478 grain arrow, 2” expandable, 280fps. Shot placement is very important but 99% of the time I can put it where I want it. Never had problems harvesting mature whitetails. I’ve shot local indoor and outdoor competition most of my life but that was a means to being a better bow hunter. Troy is no doubt right that a heavier arrow, fixed 1” cut will penetrate better. But there’s such a trade off with it. Many years ago I used 3 blade muzzy’s or thunderheads, no weights in my arrows, clear down to 40 pounds of draw weight and still successfully harvested deer.
@chadyoak1633 I passed through my first bow whitetail at 30yds when I was a kid with a Darton from a garage sale, an arrow from Walmart based on a spine chart(My dad didn't bowhunt then) But wasn't much trouble for me to figure out, and some broadhead. Don't remember, didn't matter then, doesn't matter now haha
Did Cameron Hanes is a good example he practices out to 140 160 yds you know but you'll see him I mean he don't shoot bulls that are super far he's not shooting at a pool I have never personally seen him shoot at a pool that's 80 or 100
@progradepainting3755 to me it was clear that the total is the sum of all aspects of the action, from the archer to set up of equipment. Foul one input and the results won't add up.
All the twizzler stick Dudley wanna be's in the comments need to remember one important thing... some men can, some men can't. I can shoot a 32" 589 gr arrow set up at 80lb draw. Don't let your napoleon syndrome show because you can't.
Troy is a great dude and all, but he cant even tune his own bow. He knows very little about working on bows and and arrows. I rather listen to the pros who shoot,hunt,kill all kinds of animals. A 650grain arrow just inst the best choice when you need to shoot any distance. Give me a weight that puts the broadhead around 280 where the flight is the best. 270-280 is where BH fly best plain and simple.
You maybe a great shot but how much momentum does your arrow have at 80 to 100m? Given it starts with less KE than a .22!! Only a nutter would shoot elk size animals with a .22 at 100m. No wonder you say more than 50% are not recovered.
Unfortunately, I won't be listening to this podcast. I've been down this road. Massive waste of time and money. Troy is marketing his ideas and products. He completely avoids any of the negatives which is part of his marketing ploy. As a lowly engineer - he's taking advantage of guys who aren't as capable math/science wise and present only what aggree with him.
So there is only one right answer? My family has been gluing steel dowls into the front of shafts on elk arrows with ample success for decades. I always say, to each their own, because it truly is 6 one way and a half dozen another. I've lost an elk with light weight builds and I've missed elk with my heavy builds. Any setup has it's draw backs.
Let's interview a guy that has never shot a single elk, or anything bigger than a whitetail or hog at 20 yards under a feeder about his opinions on ELK arrows 🤣 any archery "advice" you put out is always laughable, but this takes the cake.
Find me someone who has a bunch of reps shooting hundreds of elk, studying the hits, documenting the results… I’d love to talk to them. The problem is ten guys that work/hunt for Mathews or 15 guys from Hoyt…. Hunting elk in different styles, different distances, different post shot analysis levels doesn’t really help. You aren’t wrong… you have to take it all with a grain of salt. However I do think there is value in looking at what Troy has done… maybe it’s applicable to how you hunt elk, maybe it’s not.
@CliffGray you can trash Dudley all you want, but he's killed more elk in one year than Troy has ever seen in his lifetime. Along with hundreds of other of bowhunters that actually hunt and kill elk each year, or even non-baited deer at distances other than 15-20 yards.
@patrickfuller6018 and what Troy is speaking of is the work of Ed Ashby who has shot more animals with a bow then John Dudley will ever see in his life….. what’s your point?
I like the style of his content that analyzes shots both on video and by opening up the animal. Interesting stuff and unfortunately mostly not available on elk. I also had dozens of folks ask me to have him on, so there is interest in his opinions.
I am finally blessed to see a comment section with other people that can see right through this 🤡 Now hes done a lot of western hunting? 😂 This dude is so full of shit he could probably blend in with the pigs that he doesnt really hunt. Shame on cliff for this.
shame on me for interviewing a guy that 100+ people have directly asked me to interview? bwhahaha. what in the world man. having a discussion with someone doesn't mean you endorse 100% of what they say.
@CliffGray I never saw you as a guy to chase clicks. Stay a real one brother, that guy is definetly not one. Or maybe he is and he is playing the antagonist on youtube. He is half right like he says he wants us to think. I don't want to give him that because of how big of a douche he is, im not talking about his corks either. But he is right more than half the time and speaks some truth, sometimes he's 100% right. It's all the B.S. in between. I listen to some of his videos, more recently because I love archery content and used to admire Ed, and a lot of it is good stuff but just when hes about to be legit, there we go back on the bullshit. He reminds me of the guy in school who liked getting hit. Sorry for blowing up your comments😆 I spend most of my time driving around checking on oil leases so I spend a lot, too much, time consuming material and youtube is my favorite. Keep it up man, it gets a lot of us through the days off from the field.
Cliff and Troy, really enjoyed this video. So much to unwrap. Watched the one where both of you were on with ED. I grew up watching Fred Bear, Ben Pearson, and Howard Hill. I've been involved with archery for 56 years. Now at 70, finally retired from healthcare. Troy, appreciate your review of anatomy and relationship to animals and hunting. So spot on. Bilateral hemo-pneumothorax is lethal, if you can't breath and the chest cavity fills with blood and air leaking out, the compression on the heart leads to cardiac tamponade, also very lethal without intervention. I've shot all types of bows and like my trad bows as well as my new modern compound. Started with a PSE, then to a Jennings, then to a Quadra-flex (all with little let off), to now my modern (last 5 years compound with lots of let off). Cliff, I also shot a WB and will stick with it. Have a Fred Asbell, Colorado Bighorn, custom bow that he made for me when I had my own custom arrow business. I started with wood shafts and have progressed now to carbon. Love shooting that bow at 53# @28".
Cliff, as a guide, you have a unique opportunity to help the archery industry by compiling your own research. As a guide you could collect data from your bowhunters on the types of equipment used. Types of bows, poundage, shooting method (release or fingers), types of broad heads, distance, recovered or not, distance traveled for those that are recovered, organs impacted, and type of animal.
Troy, appreciate your contribution and approach to hunting and improving outcomes of success with lethality. My job was to save lives.
The one thing I stress with my sons and grandsons is become a better hunter and get close to your animals. Have respect for them and always practice one shot kills, whether that is with a bow or a firearm. I don't like distance shooters. That's not hunting in my opinion. My archery kills have all been under 25 yards. I hunt Colorado and it's become harder to draw tags. Watched the big game rule changes since '68 to now. Now that I'm retired, I'll look for other opportunities to hunt out-of-state.
Thanks for what you both do for the sport of hunting.
Good interview. It took me a while to get my head around Troy's concept and to understand how FOC works and what components are necessary to achieve better FOC for better arrow flight and penetration. Now FOC is one thing but to Troy's point, momentum and broadhead edge durability/retention dictate penetration. The rest is up to the hunter/shooter to get the rest of the equation correct, bow tune and form. I've been bowhunting and shooting competitive archery 40 years. I consider myself an average shooter and know my personal limitations. That being said, since I increased total arrow weight an additional 125gr and up to 175 gr with 18.7/21.2FOC, looking at my pin gap distance, they are tighter at 40-60 yards. Hence, the arrow is carrying more KE due to correct FOC, mass weight along with perfect arrow flight, is not dropping as much at those ranges. I'm happier now than I was 39 years before. Just find the best set up and adapt. Cheers. Good content.
@@TradTech I love troys and Ashby’s first quote they ever said.
“Go as heavy as you can with a trajectory you still find suitable for you.”
This quote says it all. You follow most to all of the 12 factors you will increase your lethality 20 fold.
I have tried the 650 and higher myself but I just didn’t like them I didn’t like the way they felt or flew, 600ish grains on the crossbow is perfect.
650 ish on the recurve is not ideal but I have no desire to change because when the arrows bend I turn them into 20” bolts lol. I mostly use crossbow now. But 550 would be perfect maybe even 525 for the old 50 lb survival bow would be good.
Getting my first bow this month and hoping next year can be my first real hunt. Your videos have been a great help. Thank you. And thanks for your insights here
Awesome! Good luck on the journey!
Do yourself a favor and don't listen to RF... unless you've got a lot of time and money to waste. Go to a reputable local shop, they'll set you up.
People can laugh and say what they want about Troy aka the ranch fairy but one thing for certain he has done is make people think about the broadhead they use and how sharp it is.
Keep in mind, a lot of archers shoot 60-120 yards for practice.
Whether it is to make the 40 yard shot seem easier due to increasing your confidence.
Or if you shooting TAC where there are targets past 100+ yards.
Shot placement is king and the most important item on the list. IMO
We should not be poo-pooing each other's way of hunting. If it not your cup of coffee, don't drink it!
I am a short-draw archer, 26.5" @73lbs, so I don't have the "power stroke" of an archer with 29-30" draw lengths. lol
My arrows are 420 grains with a COC solid fixed blade broadhead. There is next to no way that I would be effective in shooting a 600-700 grain arrow. We need to be cognizant to not throw out weight numbers without taking into consideration the archer/bow factors as part of the equation.
For the record, I don't shoot deer, turkey, or elk past 50 yards. (Waay too many variables in a situation for me to take that 50yd shot)
Not every draw length and draw weight in a compound bow setup can shoot an affective and tuned 600-700 grain arrow for hunting.
Another analogy, that my local archery shop told me to take into consideration years ago is. If you are 20 yards from one of your "friends". You had the choice of them throwing a baseball or a 5lb medicine ball at you, as hard as they could throw. Which would you choose? It's not the only way to consider arrow weights, but something for you to consider for you hunting setup, style, and fit for use.
For me, I try to find the balance of maintaining momentum at the point of impact, with shooting flat as possible, from a tuned bow and arrow.
In short, when we review good and informative resources such as this, we need to take into account all of the variables, as the SMEs don't have the time to cover all of them.
I’m in the exact same boat. I go lighter with more FOC. Seems to help a lot.
How are you able to shoot a 420 grain arrow It must be paper thin Is all I'm saying like I want something that I can hit still with and it not blow up That's it Um and I've experienced that Eastern access arrows I blew every one of them up when I first started because of Mrs or you know shooting through a Target or something like that I switched to Victory vap Elite arrows which are a little bit heavier but there are 250 spine and They're thick And they hit really really hard and I'm shooting 250 grains up front And it will break stuff I know a lot of guys are really good But 420 grains is a hard thing to achieve With an arrow that's going to have structural Integrity How many of your arrows break when you shoot elk or when you miss
@@Gibsonlife573 … I shoot the Victory Velocity Extreme in a 300 spine cut down to 25.5 inches which makes it stiffer. I use a 75 gr half out that covers the front. I shoot Tac fletchings with a 100 grn point. Total arrow weight is a little over 400 grns with 19% FOC . My draw length is 27”, and for me they fly and penetrate great.
I’m actually waiting for the new Easton 5.0’s to arrive.
These are my exact arrow builds:
Method ZMR 350 w/3 Fletch Super Sabre
GPI: 8.9 gr
Method OPC Insert/Outsert: 54 gr
Arrow Length (Carbon to Carbon): 25.5"
Arrow Length (Throat to Outsert): 26.5"
Broadhead is G5 Montec 100grn
Arrow Weight with tip (Std Nock): 415 grns
Speed: 259 fps @ 64.8lbs
FOC: 14.3%
Arrow Weight with tip (Halo Lighted Nock): 422 grns
FOC (Halo Lighted Nock): 12.1%
Valkyrie Reign 350 w/4 Valkyrie Promax Vanes
GPI: 7.8 gr
Method OPC Insert/Outsert: 22 gr
Arrow Length (Throat to Outsert): 25.75"
Broadhead is a Jagger 180grn
Arrow Weight with tip (Std Nock): 428 grns
Speed: 253 fps @ 64.8lbs
FOC: 18.1%
Arrow Weight with tip (Halo Lighted Nock): 435 grns
Speed (Halo Lighted Nock): 247 fps @ 64.8lbs
FOC (Halo Lighted Nock): 17.1%
With a Method arrow 2 weeks ago, I shot a 2.5-year-old buck at 37 yards.
The arrow went through the deer and stuck in a tree. lol
Don't forget to mention this if it is a right spun right served string it is going to clock the arrow automatically left so you need to shoot a left bevel left helicopter Arrow Chipotle the natural rotation of that Arrow otherwise they have showed it on high speed camera if you put a right helical on a string that is spun up clockwise and a served clockwise the arrow literally takes off left stops mid-flight and the fletchings corrected and start to spin it to the right lot of the reason why people don't want to shoot a left bevel Broadhead is because it comes unscrewed you can put some plumbers tape on it wax anything like that you know
I see so many right helicals and wonder if people paid attention lol I have left helical, left bevel. The heads never come unscrewed
I agree with most of what the Ranch Fairy says about weight and FOC. ASSUMING, every arrow comes out straight (which is rule #1), a higher weight and FOC will fly better in wind. Shaft diameter also affects that. But higher FOC absolutely drives the arrow, even when wind is pulling the tail sidways.
The only thing an educated western archer needs to decide is, what is the acceptable trajectory. Or as Troy says, what is the acceptable momentum when it reaches the target. Cause that's all the energy you have to kill the bull.
I've found that a 500gr arrow flying at 270fps is a good arrow until 75yrds. Then the momentum falls off, and I'm more likely to miss low. I'd rather have more energy on target and limit my trajectory. Early in my yrs, i argued flat trajectory vs heavier bullet, and i find it interesting that i get full pass throughs on mature bulls after i started shooting heavier arrows with better broadheads. I cant get on the 600+gr arrow, but i have found 500gr is a sweet spot for me. Also, consider .166 arrows for less wind drift. It is substantial in heavy winds. I tested 6/5/4mm arrows in 30mph winds at 45yrds. The lighter 6mm arrow drifted 18" and missed the target in that wind. I enjoy testing these theories. Always be tinkering...
I’ve gone full Fairy and back. I’ve found middle ground in 450-475 with a good mechanical.
I reflected on a book I read years ago.
Life at Full Draw by Chuck Adams.
It would be pure gold to get his take on today’s trends compared to what he used. To me his opinion would be iron clad.
I’ll check it out. Thanks man
@ your in for a treat.
100% strike a middle ground!
Go back to fairy.
For whitetail you are spot on.
Great presentation!! Well done Troy
I shoot a single bevel with a whisker biscuit rest. Does that make me a super dork? lol Great stuff as always Cliff.
Yes it does, but I’m joining you
Cliff, if you haven't watched any RUclips with Paul Medel, aka the ElkNut, you are missing out.
He and his son and buddies have killed over a hundred elk, mostly here in Idaho, with OTC tags.
These guys are extremely lethal.
If anybody can throw some decades long perspective on this, he certainly can.
Both from a very compelling arrow set-up, calling and hunting strategy point of view.
He is very animated and has nothing to sell but a very effective elk sounds and tactics app for I think $4.99! Interviewing him would produce a great segment.
I have seen a bunch of Paul's stuff over the years. I'll reach out to him. thanks
As a whitetail hunter a test im interested in seeing, and maybe troy has done this, is pin gap from 20 to 30 and 40 yards with different arrow weights. My concern is thinking a deer is at 22 but hes really at 26 or 27 or visa versa and missing an inch or 2 high or an inch too low
He has a video on his channel about miss judging range with light and heavy setups
@Zarrem7490 he does. He did a good test but he completely avoided the actual issue.
This is a really important point. This the number 1 reason to shoot a normal weight arrow. Range error is a massive issue. I rarely ever get the opportunity to range in advance the specific animal. It's usually an opening in advance and I'm realistically within 5 yds at shot. Between my pin selection and estimated range.
This is could be the difference between a lethal shot and not. My first bull if I was any heavier I would have not been successful.
@@CEMuhlbeier the difference between the two was a average of about 1 1/2” so if you miss judge with a lighter set up your still going to miss about 2”
@@CEMuhlbeier I think the actual issue troy is trying to get across on his whole channel is, are you more likely to hit bone, or miss judge your yardage? And if you do one of those things how does each arrow react and what are your odds success, a plus or minus 1 1/2” difference on elevation on impact or the fact that one arrow has the capability to constantly breach heavy bone and the other does not
I've definitely increased my arrow weight, but 650 is too heavy for western hunting. Pin gaps too far. I think I"m at 550 with Single Bevel 2 Blade broadheads. I've still never seen an elk hit well that didn't die. Cliff is correct. Two Lungs kills them every time. Still haven't heard a full frontal go bad either. Full frontal better than 1/4 to and I think most elk are 1/4 to instead of completely broadside when people lose them.
Absolutely
Troy doesn’t recommend 650
@@bigz5262 never said he did. I said I had a 650 setup and I felt it was too heavy due to pingaps. Thanks for commenting worthless stuff.
@@bigz5262says who?
Awesome interview man. Not everyone may agree with Troy but it’s still great information. Killed an elk or not the guy is doing the work to experiment and help out the average guy, not just the super hunters.
👍 agreed!
The problem is, the average guy needs to practice year round, and actually get some professional archery training before he decides to go in the woods and shoot an animal. There’s no magical arrow weight and broadhead that’s going to fix poor archery skill on a hunt, and you definitely aren’t going to get that from Troy.
@@progradepainting3755I would completely agree with year round practice and Troy doesn’t say anything about not practicing. He’s advocating arrow lethality in case something doesn’t go perfectly. Which if you have ever hunted you know it doesn’t always go perfect. I see idiots all over the place with rifles losing animals too because they suck at shooting. Nobody is arguing against practice.
I think both of you guys @CliffGray would appreciate precision cut archerys weight optimiziation function
Clayton Coyle video of a slight quartering to shot placement. A lot of people would still shoot for the ribs. Shoot for the exit.
Apparently on whitetails there's this new study that if you stop them and they pick their head up to look they cannot drop and roll away as fast
Humility is a good lesson.
Clayton Coyle video of a slight quartering to shot placement. A lot of people would still shoot for the ribs.
Cliff thank you for sharing your elk hunting knowledge and Troy thank you for sharing your knowledge on arrow flight and broadhead performance on animals. While Troy may not have killed elk personally his information on live animals is spot on and matches my own experience on elk. I have found that decreasing my shooting distance and increasing my arrow lethality (Troy setup) does directly increase my harvest rate. Love the short tracking jobs as well.
Love the ranch fairy
Your awesome too
1:22:27 I just can’t believe Troy has gone this far without saying “plan b”
Great interview Cliff ! Always great to see the perspective of experience combined with data. I can tell you first hand that you absolutely can shoot longer ranges (100yds) accurately with heavier arrows. (600gn) ish. I also agree with Cliff that 30ys and in should be the goal. Give yourself the best chance to harvest a bull - hunt smart, be fit, know your equipment and its limitations, work within those and then its up to mother nature ! Again, great conversation and I hope to see Troy, Ed and yourself on another Podcast !
Thanks man!
People won’t buy the 3:1 single bevel cause of the blood trail. No one’s mentioned this in troys videos but that’s a big factor for the single bevel. Not big blood trails and everyone gets off on a lot of blood for some reason. But to that point, I’ve seen it first hand. Shot a buck, one lung liver with a 200gr single bevel cutthroat and we didn’t get blood for a good while. So it’s kind of up in the air for me. I carry one 150gr single bevel in my quiver for thick spots or spots where the shot might be quick. I carry one sevr for rainy days and tooth of the arrows for normal days. So 🤷🏼♂️
At 47 mins, troy discusses bullet rotation and how scientists believe ieven if the bullet stopped it would rotate. This is correct. Im not encourageing it, but i seen a 40 S&W shot into an iced over pond, and we could see the bullet spinning only 1/2 inch into the ice.
Quite a few videos of people shooting on frozen lakes and capturing 10 or so seconds of the bullet spinning like a top on the ice
I hate it when people talk about the animals jumping the “string”. There’s been plenty of data showing they’re reacting to the sound of the fletching, not the string.
I think you’re missing the point because they don’t jump either they drop… fact of the matter is they move. And they are reacting to the sound of the shot regardless what aspect it is. Until someone does a study shooting animals with bareshafts where is the proof that it is the fletching noise?
@@sfroutdoors4014point is they move and where you hit is not where you aimed. And that maybe a plan B shot - arrow better be able to do the job.
I'm not ever talking about nobody in a bad way but if you watch Brian calls last elk hunt I think it was his last one where he finally dropped that big tag as he hits the help with the arrow you watch the Arrow bin and then went back and go in just a little bit more and they didn't know they didn't know things going to get that animal he made a semi poor shot on the second Arrow they did recover it but it blew my mind when I washed the arrow it and literally stopped Bend and then straighten up and go in just a tad bit more pretty sure he was not shooting no 550 Green Arrow and I'm pretty sure he was shooting a mechanical
Deer don't jump string. Deer duck and dive because they hear the arrow coming. Make a quiet arrow, small strait vanes and broad heads that are solid and align vanes with blades. Sample, 450 gr 4mm arrow, [3] 1/2 x 2 inch stiff vanes megameat head vanes aligned with blades 70lb bow. These arrows are quiet, fly like darts, penetrate fantastic and cut a HUGE hole. Helical vanes and vented broad heads make more noise than a train whistle.
Love the real talk! Soaking it up like a sponge 😅
I could shoot a coke bottle lid at 10 yards in my back yard but gut shot a hind at 30 uphill on a freestone steam but blood disappeared on opposite side of river uphill 10 years ago. I couldn’t recover her with my thongs and long bow in summmer. I recovered fletching so broadhead penetrated but guck me she ran more than 150m or more. I ran into parks gma and vicpol a month ago and find myself drawing my ling bow again
If you keep you speargun bands in a plastic bag in the vegetable drawer of the fridge they will last 5 times longer
If you use your spear gun as often as you should, you’ll replace bands before they can dry out.
I keep mine damn near permanently soaked in salt water this time of year 😜
1:22:30 Of course somebody like Troy doesn’t think more practice is needed for people to avoid losing animals. I’ve seen him shoot. He’d better just stick to his 17 yards under a feeder pigs, he isn’t hitting anything beyond that no matter what arrow he’s using.
@ 42:46
Ch- konk
Bwhaha
I'm shooting at vpa they're cheaper one but I'm going up to their S7 tool steel they call it carbon steel but I've talked to him and it is S7 tool steel and that is the most shock resistant steel there is if I mistaken
Cut thru this and go to Dr Ed Ashby, the best arrow scientist
I shoot a whisker biscuit and have been laughed at. Reality is it only slows my arrow by 3-5 fps. Field &Stream did accuracy tests - drop away fans actually shot WB slightly more accurate! So no diffs in accuracy. So I just smile and say next season. Target shooting where 1/2 a mm makes a difference is different.
Also look at Josh bowmar he's pulling 90 lbs shooting probably at 7 800 grain arrow with his new mechanical up front he did just kill a couple Kate Buffalo but they were perfect shots he hit them exactly where he needed to
I believe his arrow is around 6 something, which makes sense for the setup. I could be wrong, he mentions it on one of the Africa hunts.
Bowmar is the last person I’m taking any advice from. He’ll also never get a penny from me no matter how good his product might be.
@@shanedennis1487 🤡
I’ve been archery hunting for 20 years, and the problem with recovery of animals, has a lot more to do with archery skill and experience, then it does with arrow weight and what broadhead you use. There’s no magic fix. The problem with Troy, is he puts zero emphasis on what actually matters, which is proper form, tuning, ranging animals, and in general the art of archery. This is where it just gets totally off into the weeds. I’ve seen really good archers, with a wall full of elk using a 380-ish grain arrow and an old school muzzy. And then I’ve seen dudes with super heavy arrows, and 150 grain single bevel, who can’t hit a wheel barrel at 40 yards.
I don’t disagree with this. This is part of the reason I don’t do a lot of archery gear related content.
um, sounds like he's pretty anal about tuning his bow and arrows.
@@stevebooher7419 no, he’s said multiple times, he views a bow as just a delivery device, and even though our modern bows are able to be tuned the specific arrow we use, Troy wants everyone to go backwards and tune the arrow to the bow. All he’s done is just increase the arrow weight until the ridiculous foc compensates for lack of bow tuning.
Kendall gray done a video the other day where he overlapped his shot and then a shot and a deer that he had taken and time to both of them right over top of each other and it was like 3 or something something crazy.3 seconds of a second or something
Has he taken Mfjj on his invite to show him how to work on his bow yet?
No idea
I mean no disrespect to Mr Fairy he knows his arrows for sure just wondering if he has taken some feed back from the bow side of things? He really does seem like a hell of a guy I think people can get uptight a bit when it comes to set ups and dudes with opinions let’s not go down that rabbit hole. Thanks for the response!
Yeah I hear ya. I had it on my list to ask if Troy had had the opportunity to shoot with Dudley yet… didn’t get there.
@CliffGray I really didn't come out of that interview that Dudley was condescending. I picture it like this - imagine I make a RUclips channel about guiding. I'm really just started out but I make my channel as controversial as possible. Talking about as much crap about the guiding industry as possible. Saying you've all got it so wrong and if you listen to my alternative ways you'll be so successful. Even though I don't even hunt how you do, I know what's best. Because, well, because I'm obviously right.
Then you have to get on a podcast with me and take me incredibly serious when you've been doing it your whole life. I'm not much of a Dudley fan but it took Dudley a lot to not lose his head completely.
Troy's channel isn't about being objective and science. He is deliberately controversial and is no perfectly innocent character.
I'm not a super light mechanical guy. Nor am I a heavy 2b guy. I strike a balance in builds.
He did a podcast with him recently.
I would like to see Troy shoot a western TAC and then comment on how his philosophy is/is not applicable to the types of shots seen in western hunting.
Yeah, he's way out of his element. If you hunting at a feeder at 17 yds his advice is great. Outside of that, listen to the wide community who's done it.
Troy's experiments don't qualify as "control" experiments... nor did Ashby's. Ed admitted it was his observations and that actual penetration on a living animal was impossible to create a control on, because of the many uncontrollable variables.
Dr.Ed literally opened a continent to bow hunting with his study.Then there are these comments kinda laughable and sad at the same time.Indians killed bison with heavy chipped stone that surgeon's still use as it is the sharpest edge on the planet for the application at times.Just let that sink in a bit.Most importantly is gonna be shot placement for sure but we all know that doesn't always happen.You hunt enough you will have some mistakes its gonna happen!Reminds me alot of the .45 to the 9mil argument both kill but i lean .45 slower and more proven in stopping with one shot.
You'll have to watch that film it's like 2 hours long but he kills the bull at the end of Brian called gritty bowmen and watch what his Arrow does and I'm telling you I'm pretty sure he was shooting a mechanical Broadhead and it was not no heavy arrow and you literally watched the arrow hit the pool damn near fletchings come around and slap people go back to straight and damn near come to a complete stop it went in a little bit more 15 in of arrow sticking out
I say it all the time you'll see a lot of younger dude starting out or stitches even seek one man like punching the trigger are shooting a fixed blade instead of a mechanical if you screw a fix plate on there and shoot that exact same shot where the hell is your arrow going to hit you watch these guys shoot these animals in the arrow goes in seven or eight inches 10 inches whatever and they're worried to death because they think they shoulder shot the deer matter of fact we just had to sneak up on a big buck to put it down because he did hit it in the shoulder and he admitted it right but if you would have had a fixed blade single bevel even if it's only a 125 okay and let's say you got an additional 75 grains up front and you know how to tune your bow that is the biggest thing about it all you are shooting a compound bow learn what you're shooting most guys don't even know how to check timing 18,000 and they got 24 string count or they got a 14,000 Center serving with a 28 string count don't understand if they're bottom cam is hitting first that you need to put a twist into that cable
It is obvious that Dudley is good at what he does. However, it's equally as obvious that he is arrogant and for sale. He is selling his ideas, I reference Dudley as the most for sale archer on the market! Everything needs a strong dose of salt...
I like Dudley’s archery marksmanship videos. They have been a huge help to me. Having said that, his interview with Troy was piss poor…. Just from a decency perspective. I hope that John was just having a bad day or there was some other explanation.
@@CliffGray Agreed!
Dudley’s archery videos are great. His arrow setup sucks though
@@bigz5262 💯and you could also through Chris Bee, Elkshape, MFJJ in there too
@@bigz5262nobody can argue physics. Light arrows shed momentum rapidly. At long distance you are reducing lethality - no matter who you are or how accurate you shoot.
475 gr arrow going 278.
Loses 32 fps at 100 yards.
Goes from 82# KE to 60#
.585 momentum to .518
Similar numbers have been stated in comments on multiple videos.
So you arent worried about 50 fps? Arent worried about 8-10 more inches of trajectory variance to contend with over flight path?(Hunting ranges)
But your worried about .518 to your magic .60 momentum number? And thats at 100 yards.
.082 lb ft/sec. So 8 hundreths, or 8/100😂
Stop following the frauds and use your brain people.
The dude blatantly lied, stated false truths, or exaggertaed at least 20 times in this video alone. And this shit has been going on for five years, shout out to dudley who sniffed it out 5 minute in, tried to keep his cool and eventually put him in his place. Some of yall still sniffing. Pew!
Amen brother! Finally somebody knows what they’re talking about!
@chadyoak1633 I don't know it all, and their is some good info there, but man so much bullshit. In the testing he bypassed completely the sweet spot most people are shooting. Intentionally who knows. He used different arrows completely, not just combinations, anyone that has done any testing knows that changing a type of vane alone can alter flight via the ballistic profile. Used 65#, 28.5 draw which of course will favor slightly heavier setups numbers wise.
I learned years ago that my arrows hit higher at longer ranges as well. It was my form, and me compensating for the peep angle. Same thing as when people don't get low at the hips shooting from a treestand. Not sure because I didn't watch but it's definetly a phenomenon. Then you add the salesman side of Troy to things and I just don't trust his testing. I didn't trust Levi morgan and crews testing of the LRP either. Very biased.
Archers advantage software is cheap people. Go punch in some numbers and look at some things. Then go in the backyard and test it.
@ I agree with ya completely. I usually get a good middle ground. Rx8 ultra, 65 pounds, 31.5” draw, 478 grain arrow, 2” expandable, 280fps. Shot placement is very important but 99% of the time I can put it where I want it. Never had problems harvesting mature whitetails. I’ve shot local indoor and outdoor competition most of my life but that was a means to being a better bow hunter. Troy is no doubt right that a heavier arrow, fixed 1” cut will penetrate better. But there’s such a trade off with it. Many years ago I used 3 blade muzzy’s or thunderheads, no weights in my arrows, clear down to 40 pounds of draw weight and still successfully harvested deer.
@ Troy talking about pin gap. He leaves out that the longer your draw length the bigger your pin gap will be naturally.
@chadyoak1633 I passed through my first bow whitetail at 30yds when I was a kid with a Darton from a garage sale, an arrow from Walmart based on a spine chart(My dad didn't bowhunt then) But wasn't much trouble for me to figure out, and some broadhead. Don't remember, didn't matter then, doesn't matter now haha
Reps and consistency. AIM for the soft spot with middle of the road weight to speed. Practice with your hunting setup.
The rest is just noise…
Pin gap pin gap pin gap!!! Get closer.
Did Cameron Hanes is a good example he practices out to 140 160 yds you know but you'll see him I mean he don't shoot bulls that are super far he's not shooting at a pool I have never personally seen him shoot at a pool that's 80 or 100
Indians killed bulls with heavy ass rocks !! 🤷
Great real world discussion of applied physics here.
And not a single mention of the archery skill that is the most crucial aspect of killing an animal.
@progradepainting3755 to me it was clear that the total is the sum of all aspects of the action, from the archer to set up of equipment. Foul one input and the results won't add up.
All the twizzler stick Dudley wanna be's in the comments need to remember one important thing... some men can, some men can't. I can shoot a 32" 589 gr arrow set up at 80lb draw. Don't let your napoleon syndrome show because you can't.
Troy is a great dude and all, but he cant even tune his own bow. He knows very little about working on bows and and arrows. I rather listen to the pros who shoot,hunt,kill all kinds of animals. A 650grain arrow just inst the best choice when you need to shoot any distance. Give me a weight that puts the broadhead around 280 where the flight is the best. 270-280 is where BH fly best plain and simple.
You obviously dont get it
I’m not criticizing his research…he has a stupid name had an annoying personality…that’s why he’s criticized…🙄
You maybe a great shot but how much momentum does your arrow have at 80 to 100m? Given it starts with less KE than a .22!! Only a nutter would shoot elk size animals with a .22 at 100m. No wonder you say more than 50% are not recovered.
Unfortunately, I won't be listening to this podcast. I've been down this road. Massive waste of time and money. Troy is marketing his ideas and products. He completely avoids any of the negatives which is part of his marketing ploy. As a lowly engineer - he's taking advantage of guys who aren't as capable math/science wise and present only what aggree with him.
So there is only one right answer?
My family has been gluing steel dowls into the front of shafts on elk arrows with ample success for decades. I always say, to each their own, because it truly is 6 one way and a half dozen another. I've lost an elk with light weight builds and I've missed elk with my heavy builds. Any setup has it's draw backs.
Hey Patrick. Your full of crap
Test
123
Let's interview a guy that has never shot a single elk, or anything bigger than a whitetail or hog at 20 yards under a feeder about his opinions on ELK arrows 🤣 any archery "advice" you put out is always laughable, but this takes the cake.
Find me someone who has a bunch of reps shooting hundreds of elk, studying the hits, documenting the results… I’d love to talk to them. The problem is ten guys that work/hunt for Mathews or 15 guys from Hoyt…. Hunting elk in different styles, different distances, different post shot analysis levels doesn’t really help.
You aren’t wrong… you have to take it all with a grain of salt. However I do think there is value in looking at what Troy has done… maybe it’s applicable to how you hunt elk, maybe it’s not.
@CliffGray what about aron snyder? Not hundreds but more than the average person by far
@CliffGray you can trash Dudley all you want, but he's killed more elk in one year than Troy has ever seen in his lifetime. Along with hundreds of other of bowhunters that actually hunt and kill elk each year, or even non-baited deer at distances other than 15-20 yards.
@patrickfuller6018 and what Troy is speaking of is the work of Ed Ashby who has shot more animals with a bow then John Dudley will ever see in his life….. what’s your point?
I’ll get Aron on sometime.
Im a huge fan of yours Cliff but why would you have this guy on when he has never shot an elk? All he does is shoot pigs at 10 yards over a feeder.
I like the style of his content that analyzes shots both on video and by opening up the animal. Interesting stuff and unfortunately mostly not available on elk.
I also had dozens of folks ask me to have him on, so there is interest in his opinions.
@@CliffGrayThe dude is a blatant fraud man. And a divisive disease to the archery community. I hope this backfires on you.
I am finally blessed to see a comment section with other people that can see right through this 🤡
Now hes done a lot of western hunting? 😂 This dude is so full of shit he could probably blend in with the pigs that he doesnt really hunt.
Shame on cliff for this.
shame on me for interviewing a guy that 100+ people have directly asked me to interview? bwhahaha. what in the world man. having a discussion with someone doesn't mean you endorse 100% of what they say.
@CliffGray I never saw you as a guy to chase clicks. Stay a real one brother, that guy is definetly not one. Or maybe he is and he is playing the antagonist on youtube. He is half right like he says he wants us to think. I don't want to give him that because of how big of a douche he is, im not talking about his corks either. But he is right more than half the time and speaks some truth, sometimes he's 100% right. It's all the B.S. in between. I listen to some of his videos, more recently because I love archery content and used to admire Ed, and a lot of it is good stuff but just when hes about to be legit, there we go back on the bullshit. He reminds me of the guy in school who liked getting hit. Sorry for blowing up your comments😆
I spend most of my time driving around checking on oil leases so I spend a lot, too much, time consuming material and youtube is my favorite. Keep it up man, it gets a lot of us through the days off from the field.
@@NODAK-x9x i gotcha. drive safe out there man.