How much does helical slow arrows down??
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- Опубликовано: 22 авг 2021
- Ranch Fairy compares light 350 grain vs 550 grain arrows with the same helical configuration out to 50 yards. Even he was surprised.
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I thoroughly enjoy these technical videos, I'm a mechanical engineer who loves archery as much as nerding out on adult arrows.
Good video! The only thing I would say is instead of using all the FPS losses as equal. I think you should calculate percentage of speed lost at distance. So if it starts at 300fps and looses 30fps @ 50y that would be a 10% loss of speed. I think this is an important distinction because if you shoot a heavier arrow at 150fps and only loose 15fps that is still a 10% loss so it’s the same but you could argue that it is only half the loss with your calculation. You still proved out your point but saying that the heavier arrow was affected 1/2 as much seems like manipulating the numbers. Thanks for another great video!
Appreciate all the hard work on these videos. Thanks for the spreadsheet . Much easier to follow that way. Thanks for the content!
As an avid archer and a Chemical Engineering Tech, I love these videos!!!
500-550 seems to be a really nice sweet spot for speed and ke with high foc. Easy to obtain with regular store bought stuff
true, we need lead cored copper inserts! or something. otherwise, the insert gets really long, or you have to buy heads over 200grain and that seems to jump the price a lot.
It works quite well. I've shot through deer legs with my 524gr setup. A 30" 70# draw on a Mathews Traverse puts some power behind it. leaves the bow at 260fps. Victory RIP TKO with a 75 grain insert and a 125 grain head.
I've moved from 410g to 525 the last couple of years and have been surprised by the step up in penetration. This coming season I hope to be at 600+ and fixed blades. I've been slow to give up on mechs.
That’s what my conclusion is coming to as well. I hunt in Alberta and run a 630 gr arrow but thinking I could benefit with a little bit more speed by dropping to 550 and wouldn’t feel too sad about it. Next year!
I agree I'm at 525 and it's a deadly combination!!
Another excellent video! Keep up the good work, it helps a bunch.
Good work fellas. I shoot aluminum arrows, which are naturally heavier than carbons, and I shoot fixed blade heads with a strong right helical. My old Mathews bows still shoot a relatively heavy arrow around 250fps. I almost always get complete passthroughs. I remember shooting a buck with a steelforce head (cut on contact) overall arrow weight around 520 grains. That arrow sliced through the deer so effortlessly that it stuck in the ground and buried itself into a tree root. The reaction of that deer was rather like nothing, and he actually turned around and smelled the arrow that just went through him. He walked a short 15 steps and piled up!
I would love to see yourself and TiborasaurusRex do an interview together. The sniper guru and Archery guru would definitely bridge the gap between the gun and archery world.
Great data and it confirms the data sets I've measured for Flight Archery. Another Archery Addiction.
10 days till Bonneville Salt Flats event. Hoping to gain about 100 yards over last year's attempt,,, same bow,,, 50# recurve hunting bow.
Thanks Ranch Fairy 👍👍👍👍👍👍
Bad ass video. Looking forward to all new ideas
Yep, I settled on 525 and have been happy with all around performance and trajectory.
Glad you got a little data from the Zinger! I switched to a 4 fletch Zinger this year and love them. Total weight 648 gr.
U won't when they start tearing! You'll see what I mean
@@mr.skeptical3071 I had issues with them tearing as well. I switched to Easy Vanes out of Australia and have been pleased with their much stronger durability. Both good products, just Easy Vanes are much more stout.
Got 2 packs of 2 bkade stinger 150s got a couple doe Tags might get one more. Got my knee cleaned out last Monday season opens Oct 3rd im hoping I'll be able to at least use my climber by then. Troy I can't wait to get a shot at one if I get footage I'm gonna send it to your messenger I've been spreading the word too Ashby foundation and your channel too. I'm getting my left shoulder replaced this January physical therapist has a buddy that had both done and still shoots compound!!! Im shooting 52 lbs with a 536 arrow with 22 grain half out and 150 stingers 2 blade. Gonna strop the hell outta the heads get that edge finish im very excited ill be in touch appreciate your work brother!!!
Your changing two variables, mass and velocity. In order to calculate loss of efficiency your going to have to keep one of those constant. If you're interested the effect of mass upon speed erosion you need to have a constant launch velocity. The 300 grain and the 500 grain both need to have the same velocity at launch to compare the effect of mass on speed erosion.
The way your doing it now, you have no idea if the increased mass or slower launch velocity was responsible for the reduced speed erosion.
They are doing nothing wrong. The idea is to deliver some practicable numbers to actual hunters, not to rewrite a textbook on aerodynamics. The take home message is that if you increase the weight, your arrow might be slightly slower at launch, but it will keep its speed better, and you don't have to worry as much about speed loss due to bigger fletches.
With that said, you are correct. Depending on the regime, drag is either proportional to speed or to speed squared, so a slower arrow experiences less drag overall. What does it change, though? Higher sectional density helps, slower launch also helps. Both aspects work in the same direction, as far as speed erosion goes.
your approach would require to change the bow - the point is to gather data for one bow with a fixed draw length and fixed poundage (thus a fixed amount of spring energy stored in the bow) to evaluate the impact of various arrow weights and various fletching configurations (that is what we normal mortals can change) on KE losses.
Correct, but practically speaking it doesn't matter much. The majority of bowhunters are shooting bows that will launch an arrow of a given weight at relatively close to the same velocity, and are more likely to drastically change arrow weight than bow draw weight. Therefore, launch force for most people using this information remains the same, mass and velocity are inversely proportional and dependent on one another.
However, fundamentally both the increased mass and lower velocity are responsible for the reduced speed erosion. The additional mass increases the the inertia of the arrow, while the reduced velocity also reduces the air resistance. You could do some calculations or testing to find out which has the greater impact on the speed erosion, but it has limited practical use since mass and velocity are so closely tied in this type of system. By this I mean that the limiting factor is the human body. Since most bowhunters are 60-70 lbs. draw weight and 28-30 inch draw lengths, there is not much variation in the correlation between mass and velocity and the trend will hold true.
@@rootjr.3658 could get Josh Bowmar in to shoot his 95lb 31" draw bow that shoots a 550 grain arrow over 300fps to check the numbers lol. But like you said there are only a handful of gorillas that use bows to hi t with.
The lighter arrows are losing about 10% of their initial velocity at 50 yards. The heavier arrows are losing about 6.5% of their initial velocity over that same distance.
It's on my bucket list to hang out with you someday. Great video, always fun to watch you have a good time. You had me at, now it's a slug. I don't think any of that is relative unless you start out at the same speed going from light to heavy. So, you would have to drop the poundage on the bow to shoot the light arrow and put it in slug mode as well or bring the poundage up to 90 or 100 or so to make the heavy one fly as fast as the light one. One way or the other or both. Otherwise, it's not a realistic comparison. On top of that when we put the light one in a momentum calculator we come up with 1.8. When we put the heavy one in there we come up with 2.5, a difference of .7 at 50 yards. I get it if you make the heavy arrow go the same speed or even close to the same speed as the light one, then it will definitely hit harder in a way that will show up substantially. The other question about all of it, that baffles me.> What does it really take? I put a 370-grain twizzler through both shoulder scapulas of a Bull Elk at 30 yards with a Magnus Stinger at 242-FPS out of the front of the bow. I don't shoot that slug anymore but I shoot the same weight arrow at 275-FPS. I just put that through the shoulder of a Bull Elk and into the spine and dropped it like a rock at 40 yards. You couldn't even get the Magnus Stinger back out of the spine it was in there so deep. Couldn't even see the back of it. I have been using a 370-grain arrow for around 20 years now and have more kills than I can count with it. I have broken front leg bones, and spines, and punched through scapulas. Hell, I used a 440-grain arrow when I lived in Alaska because they required it to be at least an ounce back then, now they don't have an arrow weight restriction. I put that thing through plenty of Moose out to as far as 50 yards and as close as 12 yards at 260-FPS. Talk about Big Bones, I put that twizzeler through the front leg bone of a Moose and on into the vitals. It cracked the front leg bone from ball joint to Ball joint in a spiral. It was such a cool-looking crack I kept the bone for the longest time. I wish I still had it. I still have a front leg bone from a Deer I cut completely in half right below the ball joint the arrow went clear to the vanes, with a 370-grain arrow at 270-FPS. I know you know, but I think it has more to do with head choice than any one specific choice. A sharp Magnus Stinger will kill and penetrate plenty enough to get the job done, light or heavy. As far as your speed test, the facts are that the pin gaps will be closer on the light arrow every time if it's going faster. I also believe the chance of them beating the arrow is way better with a slow arrow. I haven't had it happen once since I quit shooting slugs. I have had them try.
I love the lightness and the simplicity of zingers. But they constantly tear!!!
excellent vid thanks!
Great info! All these facts are going to make folks mad!
Good vid guys
Could you possible get the 500+ closer to 300 FPS I’m curious if it would follow the same pattern or if it would have the speed drop off like the faster arrows
Once the helical gets an arrow spinning (rotational velocity) the drag is going to be reduced, because relatively the airflow is flowing close to parallel to the vane and you are mostly just left with the resistant force of the frontal cross-section perpendicular to the vane's path. As the RPMs go up however, you could go with less vane (AKA less tillering resistance) because you will have the addition of gyroscopic inertia to help with stability. Bullets fired from a rifle rely solely on gyroscopic inertia for stability.
Theoretically you could do the same thing with and bare shaft (no vane drag) if you could find a way to impart a lot of spin to the arrow prior to the arrow leaving the bow. However, then the cross-sectional balance of mass could be problematic. An example would be sharpening one side of a broadhead more than the other, you have more mass on one side than the other. This would give similar results when a load of laundry gets stuck to the side of the drier and starts to bounce or your car's tire gets out of balance.
There is limits in spining. If arrow spin too much that start to slow down arrow.
And there is a complex movement of arrow in the air: waiving/oscillating from shoot impulse + spining from fins.
Depending from oscillating ratio - spining reach maximum possible rate and never go higher.
(depends from stiffness/spine of arrow)
In that case, if fins have more helical degree than that maximum possible - appears additional drag force.
And also when arrow already in that "stable" spining with as you described parallel vane going through the air - there is some small losses of spin through the air drag friction. So helical vanes/fins again add more drag in this moments to become into this "parallel" mode again.
So they are not really "parallel", they all the time do a job for small corrections through the air.
Same as straight vanes all the time do a friction job because of arrow all the time starts to spin right after shoot. (because of string twist)
I find it a lot easier to use the app on my phone to arm and disarm the LabRadar so I don’t have to worry about the aim point changing. Thanks again for all the information.
Gonna do that!!!
Totally geek to me. Cool info!
Have you ever tried a 2 fletch arrow with a 2 blade single bevel broadhead? Just curious if the fletch to head offset would allow it to fly straight, and or if it would work at all....
Awesome info awesome stuff
My wraps were 10-12 grains removed them quick... Thanks for the vids ole boy!
Why did you remove the wraps?
@@OutdoorBoys.308 changed my FOC
this is really fascinating video. I'd be really interested in seeing if the results would be comparable if you were shooting a slower bow, sub 200 fps. I shoot a flatbow 45lb wooden arrows comes out around 172 to 176 feet per second with a 460 grain arrow, 4.5 inch batwing feather (3 fletch) . Thank you
Be cool to see an arch test with this
And…your high helical rig had larger vanes. I’ll be my high helical blazer 2 inchers aren’t costing me any speed vs. straight blazers. Really appreciate this video and your approach to data science. Thanks!
ruclips.net/video/J0CV4OmfUG4/видео.html
This video will answer your question. It's a great data point set.
Don’t be stupid
What kind of sight are you shooting?
I would love to see you test ethics archery spinning inserts with the same vane combos. If the arrow doesn't need to spin the mass of the broadhead do you get the same losses
if you have to maintain a heavier mass spinning it won't need more energy to overcome the air friction (air friction depends only on surface and speed) plus as the spins for an arrow are actually very moderate numbers (perhaps 1 full turn every 3 to 4 meters) the energy lost for spinning is only a fraction from the overall friction losses caused by the vanes anyway (also straight vanes have a significant drag thus eating KE).
Great video. Can you a test at 100 and 120. 4 arrows, 2 small vanes , 2 bigger vanes ( same material) each with one helical and the other off set? I like your 50 yard data since that is a great hunting distance…( for a good shooter)…. But curious about longer distances ( field points only)
What bow was you shooting?
Troy I love the shirt… I need one.💪🏻
What are your thoughts on the Zingers?
I’d be curious in the difference between an overall heavy arrow and one the same weight but high foc if that makes sense
I'd be more interested in the point of impact of that same test scenario at different yardages.
I was wondering if left helical would make a difference?
Maybe someone else asked this already.. but what was the degree of the zinger fletch.. and was the zinger a 3 or 4 fletch and... lol.. was thr zinger one of the new ones or one of the old style? I am a fan of zingers and vanes and feathers.. shoot them all lol. I love to fletch and play around with fetching. I just started to shoot the new easton bully vanes. They paired up with bohning to make a great vane. It's the profile of a blazer vane with the stiffness of like a hear vane. Great video Troy love these
I think the speed sustained with the 4vanes at 297 was a significant point. It was the less speed decrease of all the arrows. Helpful to the Bsrebow crowd. Does 4 vanes help at that range?
“Liars can figure, but figures don’t lie!”
Can you do this same thing w/ a fixed 2 blade broadhead on the heavy arrows? Would be interesting to see if the head cutting the air is a drastic difference than piercing the air w/ a field point. Thoughts?
I agree
That's a good/ interesting thought. I'd like to see it.
I sorta did a test like this when I was measuring the fps my bow was putting out with the arrows I just built that are somewhat adult arrows (553g with a 125 broad head). I checked it and I was shooting 247fps with a field point and then tried with a kudu broadhead It shot 251 fps then preceeded to try others I had such as magnus black hornet(244fps) QAD exodus(245fps) and the annihilator xl (243fps) . I don't know what it was at 50 yards, I used a chronograph.
So if you’re running a heavier arrow it somewhat diminishes the “parachute effect”?
I am loving this series. I am interested if you did crossbow arrows or bolts would you get the same result? I switched to a crossbow and my 425 grain bolts have a much higher foc then bolts that are 500+ and still shot straight. Would like to know your thoughts?
Mass is mass - yes
I would be very interested in the difference in the sound of the arrow at the target.
Ashby says a straight fletching/feather over helical because of sound at target.
Cool test, I imagine if the arrows were tuned rather than just adding weight, the results would be even more stark. Perhaps a test with perfectly tuned light arrow and perfectly tuned heavy arrow?
Great stuff, trad bow shooter my self but I find a heavier arrow works for me, I find 10-11 gpp a lovely
The 250’s were tuned to the heaviest point mass bare shaft (my hunting arrow) - so this is a fair question. But 90% of the YT community just slams huge points in a noodle arrow (their hunting arrow).
Good observation.
Is it optimal to have the fletching rotate in the same direction as the single bevel broadhead or should they oppose each other’s rotation?
Same direction
Don’t know if the variable would be that valuable, but I shoot offset 4 fletch vanes..I ‘think’ I gain the stability with less drag..??
If Rocketman is doing math, you should show the proportional change in KE and Momentum since KE greatly favors speed over mass and really doesn't mean much at archery velocities. Your bow is a fixed KE input for the most part. While heavier arrows make the machine slightly more efficient in translating the KE to the arrow with less loss, it's marginal. You saw that in your last test. Change in momentum is what drives loss of penetration on the target.
Honest question, why do heavy bullets travel slower and hit harder than light bullets of the same caliber?
@keithqueen352 with increased mass they have higher sectional density and as a result a generally higher BC. KE=1/2 m v^2 Since the initial KE is ~fixed in a bullet or a bow and the lighter bullet starts faster at lower mass, but decelerates quicker it's giving up energy at a much higher rate than the heavy bullet. This is grossly oversimplified, but that's the primary reason. My LabRadar gives me speed and KE over distance. You can use insert weights to send a light and heavy arrow from the bow at the same initial KE and see the light one's KE drops faster over distance. I've done it many times just playing around.
Somebody tell me whats going on with his sight??
So then with a 700+ grain arrow bare the same results? Or a 1000 grain monster? I’d like to have 50 1000 grain arrows ready to go with some bishop steel… buuuut that’s really expensive to do…
Started shooting Adult Arrows last year, still trying to get my buddies to change. Some say if it ain't broke don't fix it but "figures don't lie"
Success does not always dictate beat practices.
I'd love to see the same test with big broadheads on the front. How much velocity do you lose with the drag from the broadhead?
This too shall be tested.
Lots of the long range guys don’t know this is a fact - heavy, helical, light, etc. drag is a drag
i wonder what a FOB would have done in this experiment...asking for a friend...great info
How do u like Zinger in terms of stability and loudness?
More we explore this aerodynamically. It appears we would prefer a larger fletch over smaller to keep broadheads flying
Field points are liars
I like the concept.
I KNOW the noise thing is a paper tiger
Because we NEVER see consistent movement of the animals
Your study on you tube begins now!
And k shoot feathers - they are the loudest - but things still die and the reactions are completely unpredictable
Choose perfect arrow flight and sharp DURABLE broadheads FIRST
What happens if you shoot the VAP SS? they are a smaller diameter. they are 9.9 rains per inch I think. I have 6 300 splines at 29 1/2 inches and 6 250 splines at 29 1/2 inches I put 120-grain inserts in them. Still going through "the process".
The same thing
Hi Troy and Rocket man,
Love the tech your using, have you compared speed erosion between a light an heavy arrow with the same initial velocity? therefore removing the exponential factor of air resistance.
Not sure if this has been suggested yet.
Hi Ben, No we haven't done that. Getting two bows to shoot two arrow masses at exactly the same launch velocity would be difficult. I believe that is a test better done via simulation. Likely there is an arrow flight simulator out on the internet that can answer that question easily enough. If you do that simulation, do post your results here!
@@DigtoDef will do,
I have an 80lb shooting 550ish grains @ 300FPS and a 70lb with 425 grains and a very similar speed,
Interestingly the sight tapes for the single pins are almost identical but I don't have the tech to check down range velocity.
@@bencoy3673 the pin gaps will widen for further distances for the lighter arrow - 70# pound setup as the launch KE for the heavier setup is just significant higher, thus there is much more left to feed the drag losses....the lighter arrow will drop the speed faster ....see all the other testing from Darrel and Troy about this topic.
Eta: ...just noticed that the above is only legit IF the vane configuration is the same thus causing the same drag. In case the lighter setup is using a "lighter" fletching (which would have some merits) the drag would also be reduced thus the gaps could be indeed similar. I guess that is why those apps for calculating the gaps (e.g. UNO) or the sight tapes provided by the sight manufacturers that just depend on your launch speed work - they just assume that you adapt your fletching to the TAW.
Thanks for the great video. I have some follow on questions that outflow the totality of this video that I think the adult arrow averse and adult arrow apprehensives my have.
1. Can you guys comment on, measure and/or postulate whether or not helical fletchings provide more stability for the arrow in flight than straight? (I'd imagine yes, but don't know for sure)
2. In terms of weight and speed, I think the biggest concern is the Trajectory of Arrow in Flight. Could you guys do some general trajectory and arrow drop out to what you consider would be the maximum effective range for adult arrows in their own class? (By class, 550-650, 650-750, 750-900, and 900+ or something like that that) (and by concern I mean winning over more folks over to adult arrows)
And by maximum range, qualify that for the average ability of most archers. Like myself 30 yards is near the edge of what I'm most comfortable with on game but with near perfect conditions I'd take a shot at game up to 40 yards. As an archer with 4-5 years of experience.
wrt 1: spinning arrows are more capable of correcting flight in regards to an unbalance (e.g. due to unequal weight distribution, or planing, or bow tuning) as the unbalance would effect all directions and not only one. Trade off is a higher loss in KE due to the higher drag. IMO helical or just a simple off set doesn't have an advantage over the other - I prefer just an off set (1.5 - 2 deg) as it is easier for me to fletch.
wrt 2: I don't believe that trajectory is the biggest concern (at least it isn't for me), I'm more concerned about speed pending on the type of archery: for target shooting and marked distances speed doesn't matter, a heavier arrow will be more consistent. For unmarked 3D and hunting a higher speed (that manifests in the trajectory) will minimize the error margin when misjudging the distance. For hunting the higher speed has also the advantage that it will leave less response time for the deer to duck, thus again increasing accuracy.
wrt "comfortable range" have a look here: ruclips.net/video/IWXWUBWSszk/видео.html&ab_channel=GrowingDeer.tv
I think it would be interesting see the difference in decibels also.
The funny thing about that is, even if an arrow sounds like a boat prop flying by you, it won't make any more noise than any other arrow coming to you. We did this one day. My buddy arrows were fletched with that same fletching jig with the radical helical and AAE Stealth vanes. They sounded like a boat prop cavitating in water flying by us. I said you guys stand over here and listen to mine with the Flex Fletch and see what they sound like. We were standing behind the corner of my house shooting the arrows past us. They said you could barely hear a hiss from mine. We put his high-end camera on a tripod right over my 3-D Deer target's head and shot both arrows into the 10 ring on the Deer target from 40 yards with the Deer target broadside. There was almost no sound at all from both of the arrows. They both made a really light hiss. Neither one loader than the other. I thought sure his would be like a train coming down the track.
I have noticed long vane (2.5"+) and a full hecial on a faster arrow (280+) balloons like crazy. Using a 2"-2.3" with a true hecial achive better results for righter groups at speeds up to 290fps from what I have seen.
I have just switched to some 550gr arrows with high helical large veins. They fly good just hope I get good penetration.
What broadhead?
Nice one ranch fairy, I was wondering about that helical slowing my arrows down, I fletcher all my gold tips with an Arizona easy max mini and there throwing some serious helical but that's fine and I couldn't tell the difference now I know why. My arrows weigh around 500 total after jacking them up a tiny bit more last week, so now their actin more like the energizer bunny. They just keep going. And after putting on my grizzly stick samarui 125s that spin is something else, almost makes me dizzy watching it , no it is pretty cool though. Talk later, take care.
We will need a big bottle of Albee Ford the momentum video….
Cool stuff guys! Next time invite me over I'm just across the border in Arkansas. ; ) p.s. I wonder if the high helical acts like a propeller??
I got excited when I heard you say you'd be shooting crossbows. Then no crossbows
Working on it - ha - full time job and fishing a ton.
I want to get the test kits on order, and I emailed you last year. Got my stuff actually measured. 69lbs 28in draw bowtech carbon Knight. Is it still 250/300 test kits?
Yes
28” carbon to carbon
High FOC field points
@@RanchFairy thanks, Troy!
Final arrow set up, 625gr, thp arrows with 125 magnus , out of an 80lb bow, I think it will do well
Question about the effect of helical slowdown. These are some random thoughts that popped into my head as I imagined the effects shown in your video. Not sure how to word this in an understandable way, but I'll try my best.
Helical fletching seems to have more drag because it has a greater profile exposed from a forward view. However! If an arrow spins, the air doesn't flow straight along the shaft. Instead it travels along the arrow at a ratio with a certain length down a shaft and a certain amount along the circumference due to the spinning action of the arrow. I can imagine an arrow spinning at a rate where the helical fletching is actually straight on in the air flow at that time.
The initial spin of the arrow is created by the fletching, so I suspect the rate of deceleration of the arrow is super high in the first few feet of flight as the arrow spins up and then the rate of deceleration drops as the fletching's offset starts to match up with the airflow. At that point I suspect the helical fletched arrow's deceleration is similar to that of a straight fletched arrow.
A spinning arrow may fly more stable sooner and lose less speed (due to reduced time flying "sideways" as a straight fletched arrow stabilizes). This may compensate for the added loss of speed early on compared to straight fletched arrows.
Now, if there is something there it all applies to field points because they don't take much effort to spin up. If you add an (adult) broadhead things change. Due to the increased mass and the added resistance of spinning a blade, rather than a field point, it takes far more energy to spin up the arrow, resulting in a different ratio between deceleration due to spinning up (helical) and deceleration due to more flight time flying "sideways" (straight fletched).
In short: Do helical fletched arrows slow down relatively more with broadheads than they do with field points compared. (Even though in absolute numbers it may still slow down less due to the heavier arrow.) And how does that compare to straight fletched arrows?
Can you compare deceleration between 0-25 yards and 25-50 yards (preferably on the same shot) to find out if there's something there? That'd be interesting!
Wow, reading back I very much doubt any of that made sense, but I can't do much better. If I come up with a better way to put this I will. Feel free to make fun in the meantime...
I get what your saying. A circle(field point) spins easily because there's no sideways drag. A flat board(adult broadhead) would have force against it, as it spins sideways through the air. How much energy does it take to spin the broadhead? Am I understanding you correctly?
If you pause the video the radar has the speed readouts every 10yds so you can see what you are asking for as far a initial, middle , and end of flight. I'm sure that changes with a broad head.
ruclips.net/video/J0CV4OmfUG4/видео.html this is a great video for vane speed erosion.
Does tuning matter? Wouldn’t adding/subtracting 200gr from the front change the arrows tuning?
Good question I would also like to know the answer..
of course it does as it changes the dynamic spine dramatically - but accuracy wasn't the purpose of the testing here.
@@WM-jy9dz is tuning just about accuracy? I was under the impression it also increases the efficiency of flight.
New to your Chanel. Wouldn’t this test be more accurate if you used the same fletching. One straight and the other in helical. Then it would be apples to apples. Love the videos and yes I have bumped up my weight on the front end.
I'll add it to the list. But be forewarned. An arrow with straight fletch tends to be less stable.
And we did shoot a bare shaft.
I'm going to ask a dumb question but wasn't the arrows going faster when hit the target at 50 yrs with the 100gr head than the 300gr head at point plank from first shot I mean a considerable speed difference
Yes - of course - launch speed was much lower
POINT of VIDEO is how much erosion occurred - from launch to impact.
See my Kinteic energy and momentum at 60 videos - those I study the down range “on meat” impact energy.
I was amazed
Could we see this with drop away vs whisker biscuit?
I think maybe the launch speed would be different. Once the arrow leaves, the rest no longer matters.
WB only has about a 1-3fps difference. Plenty of other videos on this.
Would like to hear your thoughts on FOB's.
Never shot one
A lot of us use the shrink wraps . Me I use the quick naps 3 veins with a GT 300 spine bare .any chance you could do a test with the 3 fletch or 4 fletch . Gotta remember not all of us use the same thing as we are trying to get to 600
I Don’t have a Bunsen burner yet I’ve tried with the cheap stuff and I’m not happy with it so I use the shrink wrap quick fletch ,everything else seems to be great putting bullet holes through the paper just haven’t seen any data with it yet
Just got my EZV sighted in with the 290 insert with my 3D arrows 430 grains my hunting arrows are 647 grains any guess what insert I should start with
I would consider a EZV sight for 3D pretty challenging, especially for smaller targets?
@@WM-jy9dz it actually works very well the smaller target aren’t out more that 20 yards
@@BB-xq6rj yes, but their target zones are also much much smaller 😁
@@WM-jy9dz I was a “sun in my eyes” shot at a turkey target away from a perfect score and I sited it in the night before so The more I shot it the better I’ll get
My setup isn't exactly what I want it to be yet but budget is an issue till next year. I'm currently shooting a 29" victory RIP TKO 350 spine with the 50 grain insert and a 100 grain Kudu point contour plus hand sharpened and stropped. My bow is at 28.5 inch draw at 65 pounds mathews v3 31. Any estimates to weight and speed?
Look on an arrow weight tool on internet
@@RanchFairy approximately 440 with 150 in broadhead/insert weight up front
@@nathanmanley4203
I’d have you in the same arrow
250 spine
75 or 95 grain outsert
@@RanchFairy thanks. I've noticed these rip tko arrows to be extremely durable so far as I've shot through my practice target already in gravel
Shocked we got to see Ranch fairy shoot on camera. He avoided shooting on camera for so long I assumed it would be horrendous. Surprisingly normal.
It’s boring
What kind of sight is he using
EZV
how do you like the EZv sight is ee your using one in the video
4 years
4 bows
So I guess yu like it a lot
@@heathatkinson9491
Yep
So your shooting at a pig what’s more beneficial less weight on back of arrow or the 5 ish f/s
More interesting is the DATA is at 50 yards. For all the long range advocates to contemplate.
But alas - no one likes facts
That’s a fact
That's a fantastic question. Are there pay phones anywhere anymore? LOL!! 😁👍
Great video Troy. Any thoughts on effects on penetration with zingers?
Fletch doesn’t kill animals
@@RanchFairy I hear they can pop off and even take lighted knocks with them on impact. I'm wondering if they reduce penetration with the resistance. I can't see any other downside.
I guess whitetails aren't that thick and the damage is done before it gets to the zinger. 😀
@@underdogp229
Alas a man of logic - can I get an amen
We will need a big bottle of Aleve before the momentum video….
What sight are you using here?
EZV
@@RanchFairy thanks brother.
I’m shooting 481 grain arrow with over 20% foc 250 spine I wonder what my erosion would be
you need to measure your launch speed - from there you can estimate the losses pending on the distance and your fletching setup with the drag deceleration, e.g. a moderate 3 vane fletch will cause a deceleration in order of approx. 2000 millig (boy do I hate this imperial units living in a metric world - fyi 1 meter/square second is equal to 101.97162129779 millig-unit); for feathers it will be in order of 3000 millig. For a more precise approach you would shoot the arrow through a chrono at point blank, and then through the chrono at 50 yards (or whatever distance you are comfortable with).
For the feathers could the fact that they are not as rigid be why they slowed down the most? Maybe the fold over a tad and cause issues?
God designed them with drag so birds can catch air and lift off
He’s a super genius
There might be something to that drag, for perfect arrow flight
More to come
RF, are you using the Archery Mic on the Labradar? We're having a helluva time picking up the arrow with the "Doppler" setting.
Nope - not using the archery mic attached to the bow or the standard mic attached to the Labradar. With the archery mic I'm always fearful that we will inadvertently walk away and topple the Labradar unit over on the tripod. Instead- we are using the Doppler setting, 6" offset, archery setting, and note that we are launching the arrows right next to the unit within that 6" window. The Labradar will pick up the arrow flight about 20 feet out - the launch velocity is then extrapolated back to the bow automatically by the Labradar. Be sure your Labradar is aimed at or slightly above the target, and cycle the rearming button between shots. Mimic what Troy is doing and you should get consistent results. Good luck!
@@DigtoDef Rocket man,
You just explain some thing that may be our issue… We’re shooting under 20 feet in a garage. I’m going to move farther back and try it.
thanks guys!
@@DigtoDef we were too close. Backed up to 35’. Worked every shot.
Thanks again.
impressive testing there. I was surprised that the arrow with the feathers had the greatest drop in speed. Do you think that was because the feathers are not solid and can move about?
I would assume the feathers move and there's more surface area to grab air. Since they're not smooth. The air is rippling along the face of the feather. Which is good for the arrows ability to stabilize the rear-end. Vanes being smooth. I'm thinking the air just slides smoothly across the face of the vane.
That is what I was thinking also. I just edited my comment above because I saw I wrote "...feathers are solid..." and meant to write "...feathers are NOT solid...".
Nice show. I got to experience my first bow shop owner speed demon cry about heavy arrows. Good shop, but turned me off from them instantly
not everyone may be aware of this: feathers cause actually a much higher drag (in order of 30% with these speeds) than plastic vanes (birds need the thrust caused by the drag otherwise they couldn't fly 🦅 ) hence the findings are not a surprise - even a straight feather fletching (no off-set, no helical) will cause a significant drag. That might explain the fact that there was not much difference in the speed erosion of the 3 feather fletching variations.....maybe that is also the reason why they don't put feathers on missiles 😂😂😂....the rocket man will know .....I shoot these VAPs for 3D (350 spine) in a 3-blade / 2" low profile setup with only 1.5 deg off-set configuration, for the hunting arrows I want to try (300 spine) a 3-blade / 2.25" tac vanes with 1.5 deg off-set. They don't need more fletching as the "steering" drag (=losses) at those relative high speeds is just significant higher compared to slower bow-arrow combinations.
What's the square root of 357.34??
Something less than that
Guessing there is a point of diminishing return for arrow spin, extreme helical, verses straight fletch, concerning accuracy (for broadheads). Bullets of various velocities, weights, calibers, and lengths are definitely spin picky. Also, ever try to throw a foot ball without spin? I like somewhat large feathers (4 inch) with some offset, (my EZ fletch is 4 degree) not only for arrow stabilization and improved accuracy, but the offset, larger fletch has a thicker profile from the rear of the arrow and gives a better visual of the arrow in flight. Lighted nocks are awesome, but they sometimes fail and and don't always show up that well in bright environments. Two fluorescent chartreuse feathers and a dark cock feather can give somewhat of a variable contrast regardless of the target background or light conditions.
Fear Of Change F.O.C. 😂❤
I couldn't see your entire sheet, but I will use a couple numbers that I could see. 300 fps - 269 fps = 31 fps. Now take that a step further to be fair here. 31 fps/300 fps x 100% = 10. 3% loss in arrow speed for that comparison.
Another one I could see was 239 fps - 224 fps = 15 fps. Take that a step further. 15 fps/239 fps x 100% = 6.3% loss in arrow speed for that particular arrow.
I think the point you wanted to make is still intact, but .....
Using a simple example here -
A car going 100 mph slows down to 60 mph. That car lost 40% of its speed (40 mph/100 mph x 100%). A second car going 50 mph slows down to 30 mph. That car also lost 40% of its speed (20 mph/50 mph x 100%).
Just make sure you have the right EZ V insert installed in your sight for your set up, & you are good to go!
Was I the only one that noticed how Troy just totally snubs that lil guy sitting across from him 15:18...? Love it how Troy ignores him.
I didn't see it that way. I kind of think that Troy wasn't going to debate the phone number aspect any longer. The guy you are talking about owns the place that they were using.
Light arrows are like smacking a balloon and a heavy arrow is like throwing a golf ball
This is assuming the flight of the arrow is the same when you switch from light to heavy. since your bow is tuned for the heavier set ups I have to imagine those light arrows are not flying true. If that thing is doing loops in the air or takes longer to stabilize Would that not also account for speed loss at longer distances?
I would love to see this test done with a bow tuned for each set up and then compare speed erosion of the different arrow weights.
Really cool content and watching intently.
Fair.
It is totally possible to tune multiple setups by reducing point mass for each spine.
Arrows tune !! More to come
@@RanchFairy ohh I’m following. Very interesting stuff.
Eh shout out to Rocket man thank you Sir for helping Troy explain. This shit im stupid so this helps tremendously
This hits home, I'm shooting 563 gr with high helical 3 fletch
You’re golden!!!
Ok so which is more accurate? thanks.
...that would be the one shot by the best archer 😁
In the drag equation the velocity term is squared, so faster fletches have exponentially more drag. Be curious to see a light weight bareshaft and see how much of the increased speed erosion is due to drag vs momentum.