Honda Civic 1.7L starts, runs, stalls (incorrect timing belt installation)
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- Опубликовано: 26 мар 2013
- Conventional wisdom tells us to check for spark, fuel and compression during no start diagnostics. Where do you go when you have all three? This video explores multiple ways to test for ignition and valve timing issues, and how you can be confident in your call before spending labor time on tear down/inspection.
Engine Performance Diagnostics chapter 23
Symptoms
- starts, runs, stalls
Fix
- reset the timing belt
Tests shown
- how to add fuel to the intake to check for a fuel delivery issue
- how to check for spark with an incandescent test light
- how to check for an exhaust backpressure issue by removing the upstream O2 sensor
- how to check fuel pressure with a gauge
- how to check for fuel injection pulse with an incandescent test light
- how to check cylinder compression with a gauge
- using and understanding a coil-on-plug ignition sync for scope testing
- how to check ignition timing compared to an in-cylinder waveform
- checking cam/crank correlation with a lab scope
- using cam/crank relationship to check for a timing belt problem
- how to visually verify valve timing with cam/crank timing marks on a Honda 1.7L engine
Tools used
- carburetor cleaner
- incandescent test light www.jbtoolsales.com/otc-3633-...
- fuel pressure tester www.jbtoolsales.com/s-u-r-r-f...
- PicoScope 4425 4 Channel Standard Diagnostic Kit
www.aeswave.com/cart.php?m=af...
- Pico WPS500 pressure transducer www.aeswave.com/cart.php?m=af...
Playlist
- (Chapter 23) No Start Diagnostics with good spark and fuel
• (Chapter 23) No Start ...
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• How to check for a jum...
- How to identify a broken timing chain - GM 2.2 (part 1)
• How to identify a brok...
- How to identify a broken timing chain - GM 2.2 (part 2)
• How to identify a brok...
For more information on this topic, I have written a “field manual” called Engine Performance Diagnostics which is available at www.scannerdanner.com as an eBook or paper book.
Want even more diagnostic training? Whether you are a DIY trying to fix your own car, someone looking to become an auto technician, or a current auto technician that wants to get more into diagnostics, subscribe to ScannerDanner Premium www.scannerdanner.com/join-sc... There is a 14 day free trial.
On ScannerDanner Premium I will bring you right into my classroom at Rosedale Technical College. You will find page for page lectures taken right from my book as well as exclusive classroom type case studies. What is so special about these classroom case studies? I pull live problem vehicles directly into my classroom and we troubleshoot them in real time, using and applying the theory and testing procedures we learn during the classroom lectures. There is no better on-line training of how to troubleshoot automotive electrical and electronics systems anywhere!
Disclaimer:
Due to factors beyond the control of ScannerDanner LLC, it cannot guarantee against unauthorized modifications of this information, or improper use of this information. ScannerDanner LLC assumes no liability for property damage or injury incurred as a result of any of the information contained in this video. ScannerDanner LLC recommends safe practices when working with power tools, automotive lifts, lifting tools, jack stands, electrical equipment, blunt instruments, chemicals, lubricants, or any other tools or equipment seen or implied in this video. Due to factors beyond the control of ScannerDanner LLC, no information contained in this video shall create any express or implied warranty or guarantee of any particular result. Any injury, damage or loss that may result from improper use of these tools, equipment, or the information contained in this video is the sole responsibility of the user and not ScannerDanner LLC. 
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![A Smoked ECM AND a Jumped Timing Belt? [VW Passat No Start - an SDP Case Study - Part 3 of 3]](/img/1.gif)
Right when i heard the engine start i knew it was the timing low compression sound fuel and spark not in time ! but for anyone who has this issue this is the BEST video to watch great detail & easy to understand !
thanks man
So what's the issue with the engine cause my civic 05 doing the same thing right now
As a shop foreman I have no idea how I haven't used a pressure transducer. Timing chains in a Audi 4.2 are in the rear of the engine and depending on the vehicle it's in is a 20-30 hr job. This is great assurance to give everyone piece of mind that yes the timing is off.
WOW.. My hats off to you. I'm an old man grew up with 60s/70s muscle cars. I repair on a need to know basis so Im not up on all the say 2003 up troubleshooting tools. That PICO is AMAZING.. The best and only true mechanic is a troubleshooter. Unlike most shops and private repairs done by guessing and randomly replacing items without testing said questionable unit. I have always tried to isolate and remody but also find reason for failure. I am not under cars much anymore(health) but your process via video showed me a skilled honest gentleman. Nice to see these days. Far and few between. I enjoyed and will share your video to the know it alls. Peace
Shiftin Gearz thank you so much!
I recently bought a Honda Civic ex and was so frustrated with it that I was gonna sell it. It had the same symptom, it would drive a bit then stall at stops. You gave me hope to work on it again. I'll be trying all the diagnostic mentioned in this video. God bless you! Thank you!!
I honestly had no idea what these scopes can do. Great work Paul, every video of yours teaches me stuff that I would have never learnt on my own
My friend you are a genius. I can't say enough good things about your videos. The level of detail in this case study is stellar.
+Nick Acuff thanks so much! I have hundreds just like it :-)
I enjoy watching your videos very much. You show professionalism that is sorely lacking in the auto repair industry.
I hope that the young people starting out don't think this is cake walk, because it isn't. Takes years of hands on experience built on a solid foundation of basics.
GREAT STUFF MAN! I'VE BEEN WRENCHING FOR OVER 30 YEARS AND I REALLY ENJOYED WATCHING THIS VIDEO DIAGNOSIS, GREAT TEACHING TOOL, THANKS FOR POSTING
im shocked, i had the same problem with my 98 nissan altima, one day didnt want to start anymore so i did my diagnose and, started with a bad starter, replaced it, then the vehicle, wouldn't start at all -it was cranking over, found a bad main fuse, checked everything, now the car would star but die within seconds like the car in the video i replaced the distributor and all its components plus spark plug wires and spark plugs, also the fuel filter and the car was running like a champ, until today that it didnt want to start again after i refueled, did all my test again, found corrosion on the positive battery terminal. now is running again, thank you for your video very detailed. i subed.
im a young tech currently working at the dealership, during my break i would go upstairs to the break room and watch your videos, you got yourself a new sub, thanks for taking the time to upload,edit and educate, even a person like me . thanks
This is only the second video of yours I've watched, and I've gotta say...I love this kind of stuff. It's like House, M.D. but for engines. I'm not a professional mechanic by any means, but I have an immense desire to learn as much as I can about engines, how they work, and how to work on them. Your videos are straightforward, yet incredibly thorough. You seem like a great teacher.
Thank you Tom! Keep watching, I promise you will not be disappointed.
Merry Christmas
That was amazing ! Now that's what I call proper diagnostics. Keep up the good work !
good video especially the way you went thru the whole diagnostics,not every one has 30 years under their belt,it techs will stick to the BASICS they can fix anything
I did watch this video with great pleasure. It is good that some people share their time and experience. Thank you !
I am Moroccan I am studien as a technician specialized diagnostic e I do not inderstend some technical therm in inglich but you help me evolve thank you go furder
they don't teach these things at specialized diagnostics?
Wow. Thanks ScannerDanner. Found your video after trying everything you mentioned in your video. Thanks for giving me 460,000 KM vehicle another lease on life.
Thank you so much for these videos. I had one similar last week on a rsx with a similar hump in the waveform where the intake cam had jumped several teeth. Funny thing is that one started hard and ran well up to 3000 rpm. One more thing that jumped out at me at around 30:00 min in the vacuum pocket after the intake valve open only reaches -7.5 psi or about 15 inHg where the good one is closer to -10 psi or about 19 inHg. Just one more thing thing to confirm a timing issue if you didnt have a known good to compare it to. Thanks Paul you are my automotive diagnostic role model.
thank you very much for your support!
Great video, thank you again for putting so much time into it and explaining everything so well for all to understand.
I love your videos man , I'm a bout to graduate from training school and you've helped me a lot, I know I won't be doing diagnostic stuff once I start working but it helps a lot with side jobs.
Christian
Get a job somewhere where they will allow you to do diagnostic jobs right away. Even if it mean a smaller garage where you make less money at first. I PROMISE you it will pay off in a year or two.
really like the video, very good audio, and video shots. and LOVE the technical aspect of it . subscribed.
thanks bro! i am glad you are pleased with everything so far.
Finally rigged up an in-cylinder pressure transducer for $50 using parts from eBay and RadioShack. Works like a charm!
Recently used it to diagnose a misfire at idle on a '94 LeSabre. At first I dismissed compression as the culprit, since relative compression humps were fairly even, and the mechanical gauge showed 140psi on the suspect cyl3 and 160psi on neighbor cyl5. However, on the cyl3 pressure waveform, the pronounced "vacuum pocket" at the tail end of the power stroke gave it away. Turns out cyl1 had a full 175psi pressure (no vacuum pocket), so #3 was indeed misfiring due to bad compression, but #5 wasn't much better!
The Buick kicked my ass, but those hard cases make the most memorable learning moments, right?
how did you make it?
Nice video mr scanner , i like to watch your videos because i learn from it thank you again and keep up the good work god bless you
majorly impressed, you explained everything and gave examples, very informative, thanks.
Superb video Paul! Very detailed all the way through and in real time. I think most people would of edited some of the ideas to make it look better. Each idea and decision you came up with was supported with information and more importantly evidence. Your enthusiasm is catching! Good job!
The elephant in the room is - replace timing belt, car doesn't run. What could it be. What was the last thing changed? Remember that bad new ignition switch. Great video!
thanks Russ! glad you like it
I just started subscribing to you not to long ago and evry time i watch one of your videos i so not regret doing it. Thank you , you are smart, precise, thorough with logical steps and great theory practice.I 100 percent agree , people hate a mechanic that guesses because they almost always charge for that mechanics guessing game. Great Work Bro keep it up. When you know what your doing there is no guessing.
What a great video Paul, thanks for going into such detail as always.
Hi im Abel i live in México i been watching your videos for months they are excellent it help me a lot thank you
Love your videos Scanner Danner, please keep making them. I'm in school and you've helped me so much. I appreciate you bro.
For sure! Thank you
As an old retired GM engine combustion analysis engineer and prior Chevy dealer mechanic in the 70's I am very impressed. Great story and great use of technology only available to research and development engineers in years prior.
Thanks Mike always good to hear from an engineer. In a different life I would love to be an electronic engineer
No you wouldn't you would have loved being an mechanical engineer using electronic test instrumentation and helping design electronics into engines ... In my humble opinion .
That sounds like fun too :)
Mike Samyn xjhcoqjjc
Mike Samyn xjhcoqjjc
Thank you again, Paul for making an awesome video. I have been watching your classroom videos and i am currently reading your book. Lots of outstanding information that is well communicated. I am pleased that it is very accesible so i can use it in the field when i need it.
I did hold that part back, but going into this job I had know idea. I truly wanted you guys to go through the exact steps I took in this process.
I was told this car died on the owner while driving it. I never suspected a belt issue from the symptoms at all.
Awesome video!! Even though I don't have a pico, and will never probably afford one, it is amazing learning how the systems tie into eachother, and the theory of operation of it all. I've learned so much from your vids. Also, you show how to diagnose in a professional manner instead of just throwing parts at something.
Thanks Paul I’m having the same issue at the moment. I been lookin everywhere for some information and I think I found it here. It’s the exact same thing that’s happening to my car when I start. I’ve done most of the basic troubleshooting that you’ve demonstrated. Great work man! You definitely know you’re stuff.
time to pull that top cover and double check those mark right? Glad this helped!
@@ScannerDanner
My timings off I just checked it, now is time to go to work. what threw my timing off was a piece of the timing cover gasket. Smh. Thanks again for the great presentation you did! I will be subscribing to your channel.
@@mannyclemente7159 awesome! Nice find on your part!
Great video. We had one just like yours and found a post on IATN that said if you unplug the crank sensor (yes crank sensor not cam) and the car runs, that the timing is off a couple of teeth. We unplugged the sensor and ours ran. Our belt was out 2 teeth. It had been to a couple of shops that tried to sell her a PCM. Thanks Kevin.
Great video, I always look forward to your videos. Like the others have said, you covered all the bases.
thanks for sharing we just fixed an 04 with the same issue belt was off by 3 teeth put on a new belt runs fine now
The perfect video...!! amazing work!!
+israel zamudio thanks Israel (great name btw)
sometimes rewatch old good SD videos /// just for WOW ITS AWESOME & NOWADAY MAGIC
Thanks for your time to help us. The video and info are so helpful. Thanks
Thankyou so much! Last week I installed new timing belt/waterpump etc on my 2002 civic by myself and the car is having idle surge problem now. And I noticed a power loss. I was thinking maybe I installed the tensioner wrong, and timing belt skipped few teeth. But, by watching your video, I think my timing is okay. I starts right up and never stall.
I think a clue was missed at 7mins with the compression test. While the engine did show compression to be at spec, it took a good 11 compression strokes to max out. In my (admittedly limited) experience this invariably indicates bad timing. Because the compression was ultimately at spec, there is no compression leakage concern, however because it took so long to build it up, it is indicative of "inefficiency" with building compression. This would be due to either late closing of the intake thus a shorter compression stroke, or early closing thus less A/F to compress. Either way it will take far more strokes to max out the compression to spec. A healthy and timed engine will produce full compression within 6 or 7 strokes- certainly well before the 11 strokes as in this example.
Just an observation that caught my eye on the compression test. If you repeated the test after adjusting timing, the pattern of compression build would have been much different.
fbfsf f
well pointed out, i missed that :)
U are a boss!
I noticed that too Matt and thought about your video and went back and counted them twice!
Noticed that as well
Right diagnostic and proper tools, HALF JOB DONE.
very informative and helpful to understand the combination between timing and signals not in tune. great video. Greetings from Germany.
Excellent diagnostics.Paul you are no doubt the the best technician and teacher out there.Unbelievable how you can diagnose faults like this yet you make it look so easy !! even a novice like me can follow along without looking confused.Wow
p.s How anyone can give you a thumbs down is beyond me ,i think a little of the green eyed monster from them .
+martinguitarhd28 thanks so much!
Ive watched every video on ur site Paul, and i'll tell ya this is my favorite you took us through basically a NO-START procedure from start to finish. Ya im sure of it, this is deff my favorite, i would of liked to see you T-IN the fuel pressure gauge, but i know ur on a time limit with these videos. But nevertheless great video.
Great video, had a good time watching this one. Thanks!
I work on a shop they have a Pico worth 5k , but they don't know how use it like you !!! Thanks for you time and the gold info.
Thank you ScannerDanner watching your video was a well spent and most interesting 38 min.31 sec of my day your a brilliant teacher.
Thanks John! I agree with you, if you don't like it tell me why. But then again, you can't please everyone.
07 sonata same exact symptom. Followed this method : BAD GAS.
ScannerDanner is the man.
I always waiting for your nice post.Thank you for your time.
Amazing work, hats off no doubt a very great mechanic!!!
I absolutely love you videos. I watch them on problems Im not even facing at the time. I think you have of the THE best instructional/educational shows anywhere. I like EricTheCarGuy too. You two made a great team on your video. I'm chasing down a lean code with a suspected audible vacuum leak hiss to get it to pass emissions. Both you guys helped me with this. I did learn that you can't unplug the battery, clear the codes, go to the Emissions Place.in the interrum. I very well Wont Work.
great jobs paul keep it up, the best for you and your team, sincerely
As always, great stuff. Thanks, Paul
Without reading almost 500 comments, was there ever a discussion of why the engine would always stall after starting? I assume the PCM recognizes that the signals from the CKP and CMP are out of synch (or "Phase") and shifts the coil signal 180 cam degrees to fire during overlap to stall the engine. BTW, this is the best of hundreds of SD videos I have watched. Keep up the good work!
Paul this is another GREAT video Please don't be discouraged by the few that disliked this video. I think if someone dislikes a video they should give a reason
This very good video help me to save a lot of headaches and money!!!!!.
Man I had this same issue and had good battery readings and my relays are fine. I got my timing belt done about a few months ago then my transmission took a poop and after getting back the next day this was happening to me. I did everything in my power to find the issue, car started up fine with a jumpstart( I was so confused at this moment) so I changed the alternator and my car been good since but seeing this video made my troubleshooting way easier. Thank you💯
A bad diode in the alternator can do some crazy things! Like this one ruclips.net/video/MGaHaIXZioA/видео.html
wow, thank you very much. and may God bless you too
Great video. Thank you for all your videos.
This is great to see! Thanks for the video.
Wow, only one tooth off, I've had cars that were 3 tooth off and still started and ran, of course not as it should, but who would've thought only one tooth off. Great video, always looking forward to see in my subscriptions page your next new video, I always learn something new, you are my inspiration to keep going in this field, I aspire to be as smart and focused as you, thanks Paul.
Thank you for taking the time to make these videos
Very well done. This just gives me one more reason to buy the in cylinder pressure transducer for my scope.
Great video that complimented my morning coffee.
Awesome diag! This is one of those that tears lots of hairs from mechanics, everything looks good and sounds good, but doesn't work, at the first crank my though was on engine feed too (either fuel or spark), but then, a mis-mounted timing belt. This is one of the reasons why I lock my engines when changing belts.
Wow dude you must have been the top student in Auto Shop. Great video man.
This is one of my favorites!
Really useful information. Just bought the book and its the best investment in my carrier as a technician. Thank you and keep up the good work :)
+dmKrease Thank you!
I couldnt agree more with this comment! I'm so happy to have found ScannerDanner's videos. thanks!
Paul Danner is the BOSS.
I wish we had professionals who does this kind of work here in Jamaica.
I have a 2001 D17A that runs fine throughout the RPM band but idles rough. I've changed oil, spark-plugs, timing belt and air-filter, but still can't solve the problem.
Thanks for doing this ...You must are a nice guy...and a good mechanic
this guy must be great teacher like eric thank you for the great video
hey Paul great video , is always good to start building a data base of all the good known waveforms , that way we can compare when we have a feeling something does not look right !! always reccomended I started building my data base about 10 years ago and has help me alot....
Great advanced level for troubleshooting
Very interesting and great example of benefits of correct diagnostic tools. That demo o mehanical timing and coil and TDC ramping was impressive. Im curious why crank angle sensor didn't write to eco for timing being off as I've had cars off 1 tooth that trigger all be it on VW/Audis. Good stuff sire.
What a great video I just bought your book ,God Bless you Sr.
Its all about timing in every aspect of life. Timing is such an important element of our day to day life.
great video Paul, and very unusual case study of a jumped timing bell.
they are probably mechanics that feel that these videos educate people . this is an awesome video and i learned alot and i do not even own a honda.
wow man. you are a doctor md? on engines. all those tools are amazing.
Very cool stuff man. I thought of a couple times where I thought the timing was off and spent hours for nothing taking the covers off
ditto to all the replies, you have saved me from a lot of embarrassment, mainly i feel after watching your video's and a few others that i can fix anything that's fixable no matter who has worked on it before. Instead of just 6 to 8 months ago "before i got a scope and a few other goodies" saying i don't have a clue. Thank you, thank you, thank you. I'm not to much into reading, i like and i think get a lot more out of your videos. Instead of buying your ebook i would just like to donate to you.
this video is so good from the cars physician the scanner danner it so informative thank u for ur efforts
+Mohamed Badr yamani thank you my friend
I think I'm slowly learning!
Around 21:00 I was scratching my head,and looking at the Cam/Crank pulses..thinking "I bet that double cam pulse is supposed to be aligned with the narrower (TDC?) of the crank pulses. I'll bet the timing belt slipped! Also explains the exhaust stroke pressure rise."
Lovin the videos man,learning A LOT.
I'm an electronics geek at heart,but I love to tinker with cars too. Meshing the two together gets exciting!
I like old your videos. Very professional
WOW!!!!!!!!!!!! AWESOME VIDEO AS ALWAYS!!!!!!
Hi. First, I want to say thanks for the amazing video. Attention to detail and thorough explanations are some of the best I've seen.
I came across this video because I've had the same issues with a 1995 Honda Odyssey. The only difference is my symptoms were inconsistent at first. At first, it would start on some days and run fine, and on others, it would start-run-stall. Also, sometimes it would start and run just fine in the mornings and evenings (to and from work) but would start-run-stall when I tried to go somewhere for lunch. It's finally gotten to the point that it only start-run-stalls.
I've changed the fuel filter, I've checked and listened to make sure the fuel pump primes the system and then comes back on once the car runs for the seconds that it does, I've checked for spark, I've checked the exhaust for clogs, I've tried carb cleaner in the intake...... I've done everything you have that doesn't require thousands of dollars in sensors (that I'd truly love to have). Would the earlier inconsistent symptoms make you think that something else could be causing this? I was planning on cracking her open this weekend and would hate to get in there and see that everything is timed correctly.
+swbernstel If it runs fine some days and other not, it is most likely not the timing belt. My money is on either the main relay or ignition switch. Both very common issues.
Here is a few videos on the main relay ruclips.net/video/6CMZ4g8n0FQ/видео.html
ruclips.net/video/X5Qp-ToR8KA/видео.html
If it doesn't make a difference when you add a fuel source you may be losing spark.
To check the ignition switch, with the engine running, smack on the bottom of the steering column, just below the key. Hit it hard. If the engine stalls, you need an ignition switch.
I've also had success just messing around with the switch. Start it, shut it off, multiple times, over and over.
If you can make it run good after messing around with the switch or if you can make it stall, you need a switch
Currently, it doesn't run at all, ever. Only start-run-stall.
When the issue first reared it's head, I thought it was the ignition switch, so I changed that out. It made no difference.
A buddy thought it might be the main relay and we switched it out with a known good one (he had an accord with the same relay). That made no difference. If I can hear the pump prime the system and then hear it kick back on when the car runs for a second before it stalls, wouldn't that rule out the main relay?
What is your opinion on the possibility of a bad coolant temperature sensor? I've read elsewhere that it can render similar symptoms.
+swbernstel the main relay controls more than just the fuel pump.
Can you keep it running by spraying carb clean into the intake? (Be Careful!)
A bad ECT can cause a no start but in general it would be from reading too cold and it will flood the engine out. You should have a code for the ECT circuit in that case. And your spark plugs would be soaked with fuel
It will not run on carb cleaner.
If it runs then stalls, would there still be any fuel left on the spark plugs?
Also, something else I've noticed is that it only start-run-stalls the first time I try to start it. If I immediately try to start it again, it will not run. I have to turn the key completely back off and then try to start it again to get the start-run-stall symptom.
+swbernstel you need to check for spark while it is not starting
I love those T Lines. Makes life so much easier.
You are smart because you didn't skip any steps .good video thanks
Thank you. My civic died and I had to buy a new car. I'm going tommorow to reset the timing on it.
Thanks I think you have solved my problem Icheked spark injectors and fuel wasn't sure about can and Crank but because of the possibility of the timing belt which I just did I thought to recheck found belt bad so I'm going to replace and retime
TDC or not: great stuff ScannerDanner !
Once more a friendly thank you for your educational work. I really enjoy your videos and love the logical approach you choose and follow til it resolves the issue (and this time you had to go quite a while down the road, hadn't you?). BR
keep up the good work Paul