EPISODE 73 - Shame Narcissism and the Transition Fantasy w Joe Burgo
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- Опубликовано: 8 июн 2022
- Quick Notes:
Joe Burgo is a clinical psychologist and psychoanalyst who’s been in practice for almost 40 years. He also writes books for a popular audience mostly focused on shame and narcissism. In this episode Joe explains how a sense of shame can be a root cause of gender dysphoria and how gender transition can be idealized as a “cure” for all kinds of shame - gay shame, outsider shame, survivor of sexual abuse shame, feeling weird or different shame, and so on. The impact of the medical model on society is also lifted up as Joe describes how his depth-approach to psychological pain is often dismissed in a world seeking a solution for every problem and a pill for every ill.
Links:
Joe’s blog: www.afterpsychotherapy.com/
Joe’s books:
Why Do I Do That? Psychological Defense Mechanisms and the Hidden Ways They Shape Our Lives: amzn.to/3NCn8Bb
The Narcissist You Know: Defending Yourself Against Extreme Narcissists in an All-About-Me World: amzn.to/3O2DP8O
Building Self-Esteem: How Learning from Shame Helps Us to Grow: amzn.to/3tqBU67
Extended Notes
● Joe is a member of the Gender Identity Therapy Association.
● Shame and guilt are commonly merged with gender identity.
● Joe cut his teeth on gender identity issues with a very early client of his.
● Narcissism is created from a wounded sense of self.
● Some transitioning people believe anxiety and shame will be left behind when they change identities.
● The blogger, Tulip, writes about their deep shame.
● Some homosexuals feel shame about their same-sex attraction.
● Is the idea of masculinity under assault?
● This generation has a pattern of losing themselves between the ages of 10‒20.
● Pornography is widely available to children before they have figured out their identity.
● Narcissists are abusive. They make themselves feel better by making you feel bad.
● Those who challenge the narrative that biological sex is real often face legal implications.
● When Joe’s child came out as trans they had difficulty getting support from the psychological or medical establishment.
● Gender dysphoria is a solution-focused concept creep.
● Pain is part of the human condition yet many run from it toward medication.
● Many of the detransitioners Joe works with were looking for a cure for other issues.
● Be cautious around narcissists not to do things that invite an attack.
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This podcast is sponsored by ReIME and Genspect. Visit Rethinkime.org and Genspect.org to learn more. For more about our show: Linktr.ee/WiderLensPod
A devastating interview. With so much institutional capture how can there be any hope for children or their parents dealing with this? and here in Canada you can end up in prison fir up to 5 years for even trying
Interesting. I was a gender dysphoric girl who wanted control of her life and felt women had no control.
WOW ! Finaly the connection between narcissism and trans-identity is being articulated publicly.
I am so glad I finally listened to this episode. I must have listened to nearly a hundred of them in the last year and also been deep diving in the whole narcissism question but i never made the connection. Also, just recently took a full grasp on the importance of autogynephilia in the trans phenomenon. When you put the two together you realize that these vindicative trans-activists display some of the most blatant "toxic narcissistic" behaviors. It is just so obvious to me now... Internalized shame, projection, self-victimization, gaslighting, character assassination, self-righteousness, entitledness and the list goes on. Crazy that no one seems to see them for what they are while the whole internet is going crazy about their impression of having to deal with some dangerous "narcs" in their life.
Growing up I was a tomboy. I climbed trees , played with tad poles and frogs, rode my bike all day , built forts, never liked dresses. But in all that never had any fantasy of being a boy. I was girl and I could do boy things and even do it better. I even had both sexual experiences.I am a biological women Happily married to a biological male for 25 years now. By the time I was 13 to 14 I was boy crazy. Sexuality was new exciting but also dangerous and difficult. I was born in 1974 to older parents 40 years old when they had me. I had 3 siblings 11 year after the youngest of my siblings. So they were born in the 60s and I in the 70s. This was helpful to have them around till I was 9 then they all moved out. But we were raised on good old fashion up bringing. My older siblings got spanked often I only got one spanking but lots of hard factual comments and consequences. No coddling or awards for mediocrity. I was a wild teen and young adult ,had drag gay guy friends, lived and worked in the funky bar district partied all night in dance clubs. But never once did I absorb my identity in any of it. I always was looking for enlightenment with non attachment. My son thinks hes trans and moved out shortly after telling only me. He has not come fully out and does not dress fem outside of his apartment. I can see the shame factor in his psyche. I told him its taboo and that's where the excitement comes from. This whole trans dysphoria is not positive at all. To be compliant and just affirm is sickening. Thank you for your discussion on this subject. Your words ring true.
I could certainly make the argument that the cultural ethos of feminism is definitely inspiring the development of pathologies in children (generally), but most particularly in boys. Here is an award winning poem written by a then 17 year-old boy which demonstrates the psychological toll that contemporary feminism can have on boys:
Royce Mann, “White Boy Privilege”- Recently, I became a man. I didn't have a bar mitzvah. My dad didn't take me fishing or hunting. I didn't hit my first home run, grill my first hamburger or have my first wet dream. But recently I became a man. It happened the first time a woman avoided me on the sidewalk. I just had baseball practice and I was walking to meet my mom at a restaurant when the woman, 10 feet in front of me glanced back. I knew she was looking at me, but I had no idea what she was seeing. The separation between us was undeniable, but the distance wasn't enough. She changed direction, crossing the street like Moses did the red sea, trying biblically to find freedom from me. Her footsteps taught me the danger of my own hands, taught me what it truly means to be a man. I may never know what it means to fear what she knew, but in that moment, I finally understood Peter pan. I wanted to stay a boy, not become a man because a man is, I now knew a mix between a father, brother, and attacker, and mostly the latter.
This speaks directly to the underlying psychology of what has been dubbed "Peter Pan Syndrome" or "failure to launch", which has been widely documented as a persistent phenomenon among Royce Mann's generation (generation Z) of boys. The tragedy of this reality, the reality that so many boys have been taught to see themselves in the ways described by Royce Mann, should be recognized as an important issue on account of the harm done to boys regardless of any externalized consequences; that being said, it's worth pointing out the narcissism intrinsic to Royce Mann's disturbing self-image. It is the kind of narcissism that, to the identitarian progressive left, is considered a virtue; Royce Mann was applauded for this poem, his tragic self-image was presented to the world (being read on platforms like NPR, and Good Morning America) not with the concern that this kind of psychological presentation ought to be, but rather it was presented and affirmed as something aspirational, insightful, and virtuous. Royce Mann is the ideal "feminist boy", his masculinity is the only alternative to "toxic-masculinity" offered by contemporary feminism to boys; is it any wonder why someone of Royce's disposition would be so eager to un-define sex (male and female) and assert "gender", which can mean anything and therefore actually only means NOTHING, as an alternative form of identity? Who would chose to identify as a man (as feminism, and consequently Royce, sees "man") when one could rather identify as "non-binary", or better yet, as the woman in Royce's poem who taught him "what it truly means to be a man" in the first place? Relating specifically to the question of feminism influencing male sexuality, which I would say is an area necessarily (to some degree) effected by conditioning in childhood, I don't have any empirical evidence demonstrating specifically the effect of feminism in this regard. But the question, at least I think, has been best discussed by Camille Paglia in her book Sexual Personae; here are a few of her thoughts on the subject of sexuality and feminism: “...Sexuality and eroticism are the intricate intersection of nature and culture. Feminists grossly oversimplify the problem of sex when they reduce it to a matter of social convention: readjust society, eliminate sexual inequality, purify sex roles, and happiness and harmony will reign. Here feminism, like all liberal movements of the past two hundred years, is heir to Rousseau. The Social Contract (1762) begins: “Man is born free, and everywhere he is in chains.” Pitting benign Romantic nature against corrupt society, Rousseau produced the progressivist strain in nineteenth-century culture, for which social reform was the means to achieve paradise on earth. The bubble of these hopes was burst by the catastrophes of two world wars. But Rousseauism was reborn in the postwar generation of the Sixties, from which contemporary feminism developed. ...The rapist is created not by bad social influences but by a failure of social conditioning. Feminists, seeking to drive power relations out of sex, have set themselves against nature. Sex is power. Identity is power. In western culture, there are no non-exploitative relationships. Everyone has killed in order to live. Nature’s universal law of creation from destruction operates in mind as in matter. As Freud, Nietzsche’s heir, asserts, identity is conflict … Modern liberalism suffers unresolved contradictions. It exalts individualism and freedom and, on its radical wing, condemns social orders as oppressive. On the other hand, it expects government to provide materially for all, a feat manageable only by an expansion of authority and a swollen bureaucracy. In other words, liberalism defines government as tyrant father but demands it behave as nurturant mother. Feminism has inherited these contradictions. It sees every hierarchy as repressive, a social fiction; every negative about woman is a male lie designed to keep her in her place. Feminism has exceeded its proper mission of seeking political equality for women and has ended by rejecting contingency, that is, human limitation by nature or fate. Sexual freedom, sexual liberation. A modern delusion. We are hierarchical animals. Sweep one hierarchy away, and another will take its place, perhaps less palatable than the first. There are hierarchies in nature and alternate hierarchies in society. In nature, brute force is the law, a survival of the fittest. In society, there are protections for the weak. Society is our frail barrier against nature. When the prestige of state and religion is low, men are free, but they find freedom intolerable and seek new ways to enslave themselves, through drugs or depression. My theory is that whenever sexual freedom is sought or achieved, sadomasochism will not be far behind. Romanticism always turns into decadence. Nature is a hard taskmaster. It is the hammer and the anvil, crushing individuality. Perfect freedom would be to die by earth, air, water, and fire.” - Camille Paglia, Sexual Personae: Chapter. 1 “Sex and Violence, or Nature and Art”, [Pg. 1 - Pg. 3]
Shame from disgust.. Rachel Herz, Paul Rozin and Jon Haidt on disgust.
Thank you all involved, Another fantastic interview. I know your pain Joe, my daughter has also been captured in this way and has instead hitched her wagon to a biological male and they both ID as gay males and will have currently cut us off. I have no doubt she will come back around, in 10-15 yrs, but she definitely have a lot to get over and if possible find some humility along the way.
Another excellent episode, thank you all!
Excellent conversation again.
Yes yes yes. Growing up I hated being a girl. I knew I was different but I didn't know why. Thankfully trans was not a thing back then. Last year, at age 57, I was diagnosed with autism. I am writing a book about my life. It will be called living with Autism, undiagnosed. I feel so caught up with this gender stuff because I know, this could have been me.
We're glad you were able to grow up without the imposition of gender theory!
52:20 Well, that was certainly a "twist" I wasn't expecting... Interesting indeed. Thanks for sharing. 🐿
Super interesting interview! LOVED it!! Always interesting to learn more about mental health diagnoses and issues I don't have myself, and don't have that much direct experience with.
Also, I was just thinking... Could be that you've done this, already. But if you haven't, yet? It would be SUPER interesting if you talked to someone who's a specialist on autism, and the whole story behind the HUGE transition rates amongst autistic kids! Speaking as someone who's mildly on the spectrum, myself. Who would go through identity phases where I was absolutely, single-mindedly OBSESSED with being this one thing, and then this other thing! And.. thankfully, "gender identity" was not really a huge deal when I was growing up in the 90s. Plus I'm a female who's always quite liked feminine things. But I just bet, had I been more gender non-conforming as a teen? And then fallen in with the "cool" trans / queer kids, and been presented with this whole gender ideology narrative? Gender VERY easily could have become an INTENSE obsession of mine! And I could very easily see myself finding some kind of fancy new "identity", that became my EVERYTHING, and then making medical changes to my body to get closer to said identity. Not due to dysphoria. But due to OBSESSION!!! And a strong urge to belong with my peers. Which, I'm sure this is the story of certain autistic people who have been swept up by the narrative, and sent to professionals in for instance Canada, who can basically no longer question their clients' trans identification, for fear of losing their jobs...
Anyway, the way it works for me..? Is, I'll typically have very intense obsessions that last maybe a few years! Something like 5 years is pretty typical. And then..? I'll just gradually lose interest in whatever said thing was! And move on to something ELSE, that's more interesting, and becomes my NEW obsession. So.. I can also see myself eventually losing interest in gender ideology, or beginning to question it, listen to other perspectives, etc. And then eventually getting to the point of: "this was all just an obsessive craze! WTF did I do to my body??"
..Didn't happen, thank God. But I know myself well enough to see how it so easily could have happened, had I grown up in today's society, with slightly different circumstances! And I really feel for young, confused autism spectrum kids growing up today, and having to sort through all this bullshit... I think we also tend to mature much later than neurotypical people! And me at 16-17 years of age..? Absolutely did not have a CLUE!!! About any part of life, or who I was! But at the same time..? I was also EXTREMELY rebellious and stubborn, and already knew how to confidently speak for myself and what I thought I wanted! (I have also always been good with words. And intelligent, although socially clueless and awkward, as a teen.)
Just some thoughts and ideas!! Thank you so much for your hard work, and the amazing show. I always look forward to it a LOT!! And yeah... I guess gender DID become rather an intense special interest of mine. But.. now from the perspective of NOT buying the gender cult stuff, and trying to figure out just WTF is going on!! Which is all the better, I think. :-P
PS: I think many autistic kids and teens also tend to be confused about their sexualities! Which can further impact things. I'm mostly asexual, but still able to romantically fall in love with people, myself. And that was confusing as HELL, too!!! I even know of someone on RUclips, (SaltyAlty), who transitioned mainly because she was asexual, and felt confusion and shame because of that. And she thought it would somehow "fix" her, if she just "became a man". Anyway... She seems to not identify as asexual anymore. Which is all good. People are allowed to change. But it's still interesting that, at the time, as she was having that experience..? It really made her feel a lot of shame and confusion, to the point that she easily fell victim to the gender cult. And just.. I can see how. Being expected to perform normal heterosexuality as a female, if that's just not who you are (yet)..? Can be absolutely fucking terrifying.
I've been in intimate relationships with abusive Narcissists. It's devastating. But the drive for Inclusiveness makes it harder to make boundaries. People who say we should accept everyone for who they are, including their mental health issues, have a problem admitting that Narcs are incurable abusers who ahould simply be avoided.
I think it's horrible that the LGBT board asked Joe to step down, that's so disrespectful to his work and such a disservice to the population they're supposed to be serving.
Interesting
So...do you want children to suffer? Of course not. But a certain amount of adversity and challenges in life can lead to great things. Not always, and not to the point of despair. But if you look historically, individuals who have overcome challenges have contributed in making the world a better place. Abraham Lincoln is just one.
indeed, thanks for your comment
Why the need to pathologise autistics? That's not what we are like at all
That's certainly not our intent. We've done an interview with Tony Atwood. What did you think of that one?
@@widerlenspod I had a lot of problems with it. I hope you will read my book when it comes out. No autistic should be denied the right to know who they are.
I felt infantalized by that talk.