EPISODE 94 WPATH's Bizarre 8th Standards of Care
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- Опубликовано: 6 сен 2024
- Quick Notes:
WPATH (World Professional Association for Transgender Health) has recently released its Standards of Care, Version 8 (SOC8) to a lot of criticism and controversy. Sasha and Stella provide a preliminary examination of WPATH and their SOC8, explaining why they believe glaring issues within these guidelines have discredited the organization.
Links:
● WPATH SOC8: www.wpath.org/...
● BMJ: www.bmj.com/co...
● Wesley Yang: wesleyyang.sub...
● The Daily Wire: www.dailywire....
● Genspect: genspect.org/w...
● The Economist: www.economist....
Extended Notes
● WPATH is a fringe organization.
● Many doctors are influenced by WPATH without knowing it.
● The Standards of Care are misguided and fully represent the citations they are based on.
● Stella shares the history of WPATH and its documents.
● In 1979, Harry Benjamin released his first Standards of Care.
● In 2006, the Henry Benjamin Foundation changed its name to WPATH.
● In SOC 7, a chapter on ethics was removed from the document yet the chapter on eunuchs remained.
● SOC8 has the feel of a shopping list of surgical interventions.
● Almost all of the minimum age requirements were missing from SOC8.
● The language is “lawyer language” because it is vague enough for no one to be held responsible.
● The document is more about political will than clinical care.
● Sasha shares the nonsensical parts of SOC8, referencing the non-binary chapter.
● Many items are categorized under gender but are truly body modifications.
● Many website references cited in the document include unsavory information.
● Detransitioners are badly depicted in SOC8 and the definition of a detransitioner is abhorrent.
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Yes... Definitely go deeper in this. A mini-series take-down of SOC 8 would be really useful, as it really is the bedrock upon which the current nightmare edifice is built
Stella and Sasha - you guys have the BEST podcast in this arena. Hands down. Another brilliant and important discussion. Thank you
Couldn't agree more
Balance, rationality and compassion
Thank you so much! It's a labor of love and we SO appreciate the feedback :)
At 51:47 "Desire is synonymous with need in this whole document." That sounds to me like a pretty good summation of it.
55:56 56:03 56:08 56:50
OMG! WPATH's definition of detransitioner was grievous! 🤮 An absolute scandal as a whole!
Please talk about and dissect Soc8 as much as you want, I'll keep listen to this, almost unbelievable, horror story!
1:00:01
I transitioned in 1987 age 25. I believe it was version 3? Of the SOC. The therapy and requirements were there so I'd have a successful transition. 33 years on HRT and the doctors are still figuring it out. There is no settled science. I don't recognize anything happening these days. It's all backwards. I had a "carry letter" from my therapist to try and keep me from being arrested. Cross dressing was illegal at the time, so I technically broke the law every time I went in public. Passing was not a privilege, it was safety. We transitioned and lived our lives. This movement makes it harder for the "older generation " of TS. This "younger generation" seems to be stuck in transition and won't move on. It's so toxic. They are also rewriting our history. The numbers are all upside-down with F2M far exceeding M2F. F2M use to be very rare even compared to M2F at around 1 in 400,000(?). The cross dressers/ AGPs has made this political, not medical. Today, I'm called Truescum, transmedicalist and other slanderous names. WPATH 8 sounds like it's all political. The "T" wasn't part of the LGB back then. The guys called me straight and the straights called me gay. It's all off track and TG is now a $2 billion annual industry. It makes lifetime patients. Can we just stop?
Wow Melissa. Thanks for speaking up as someone with decades of experience here. Indeed, it's shocking to see how confused and incorrect the current generation is about much of the issues involved w gender transition. And worse yet, when professionals (who should know better) are equally swept up.
Fascinating. Would also be worth doing a deep dive into Marci Bowers, regardless of whether or not Bowers agrees to an interview with you.
A few years ago, on a gay dating site, I was contacted by a man who wanted me to come over and castrate him. I declined. Back then I had no understanding of what this is about. I just thought What a very I'll person this must be.
Wow! Imagine just asking a stranger....
Now minors have reported being asked this in gaming sites and on social media platforms.
Oh god!
Absolutely amazing and important conversation. Thank you.
One small request - PLEASE, don’t use the term “Cis” - I find it to be a very offensive slur that is a capitulation to the ideology that we are critiquing. If you must use something to differentiate, use “not trans”.
I am not Cis-gendered.
Yes, please do a playlist of deconstructing this document. 👍🏻
Did you hear about WPATH'S latest conference? Apparently there was a whole session on transitioning a patient with multiple personality disorder (DID) and what to do if their personalities didn't all agree about things like getting hormones and surgeries. They were told the clinician should speak to each personality individually, but that if they couldn't there was an app to facilitate communication between each of a person's personalities, to reach a group decision. Eliza Mondegreen attended the conference and spoke about what she saw on Benjamin Boyce's show (just short of an hour into the interview).
I listened to that! Really an excellent episode. ❤
I'd live to know if this is in the new guidelines
Absolute insanity!!
This is what happens with cult members. They lose touch with common sense. The clearest symptom is a loss of humour. This is why I like BB and James Lindsey. They can see how absolutely bonkers this whole thing is.
As if a person with that condition doesn't have enough to worry about....let's put them on powerful, harmful, lifeshortening, sterilising drugs for life.
Long time listener, this might be one of the top five most important shows you have done. I feel in my gut this kind of information is what could bring the house of cards down. Please persevere and thank you so much!!❤
Sasha and Stella, you ask if we'd be interested in more information and discussion on the WPATH's Standard of Care revelations. IMO that would be absolutely essential listening. Many thanks for this riveting podcast. Frank Jackson.
The Eunuch Archive thing is mind-blowing. Really, really scary stuff in terms of what this is all doing to undermine peer review and the scientific method. Where is public trust in these institutions going to be after this?
There’s no such thing as a trutrans person. My childhood and teen years give Buck Angel a run for his money. You can barely tell our childhoods apart except I’m slightly younger.
I was a bit like Stella except I had persistent gender dysphoria even into adulthood and still resent women clothes. It’s a mental illness and responds to treatment.
People with fetishes should be screened out full stop because those are the ones draining public money and risking their own health for no reason (you don’t need to medically transition if it’s a fetish). That means only the most self hating same sex attracted people who are fed up with homophobia should be allowed to transition and only after trying to live as same sex attracted for several years. Everyone should get therapy first.
People attracted to the opposite sex are either in denial about same sex attraction (I was) or have trauma or a fetish and feel inadequate as their sex (or all of those).
Therapists also need to watch for people who give the right answers too quickly, or who are too stubborn. If “every road conveniently leads to Rome” the patient is cheating and hiding something. Likely they’re shifting their answers even if it’s subconscious. The patient might fully believe they’re telling the truth at the time. Learn to spot self deception!
Btw my childhood and teen trans narrative of the 80s and 90s is one of the ones used as the Tavistock base line to diagnose and treat FtMs. I was diagnosed as GID in 89 and through complicated pathway my story made its way into the academic discourse because of my involvement with gender theory in the late 90s. Seriously, if I’m not trans none of the people diagnosed after me are either.
I only fully desisted in middle age. I used to believe these views were ignorant and transphobic. Now I’ve desisted I feel like I can finally see.
Thank you for your comment. We agree that the “true trans” narrative really blinds many people to the reality of how complex this is and the ramifications of medical transition.
Loved the episode would love you to cover this in further detail.
WOW! I can't believe our health services are geared towards perversions! This was another huge eyeopener! YES, please do more about this new SOC 8, I feel the more the public understand what they (WPATH) are saying/doing, the sooner children with body dysmorphia and other mental health/neurodivergent problems can get the proper mental health resources they need x
Not in countries which have a public healthcare system which are using these reccomendations as a guide for creating legislation and care.
It's what the Q in LGB-TQ+ stands for.
Queering, or perverting people's sexuality. In polite society they claim it stands for questioning, but if you have read queer theory you know what it is.
Ever wondered what is meant by + ?
Oh ladies, please do not stop talking about this! ❤❤❤
Thank you for speaking the truth so powerfully and so forcefully. You two are my heroes!
Yes PLEASE make another one of these videos! I wanted to read the 8th standards of care on my own but it was too difficult I appreciate you guys walking us all through it
Thank you!
Yes, yes, yes, more about this dangerous document, please.
The name is misleading, isn't it? Parents could be misled by the "World Professional Association for Transgender Health".
WPATH is a bit like a front group, such as the Global Climate Coalition (made up of fossil fuel industry executives), the Save Our Species Alliance (used by the logging industry to weaken protections), or the Non-Smoker Protection Committee (funded by Big Tobacco to fight anti-smoking laws). Most people take names at face value.
Well since you didn't spend much time on that forum with the fictional sadistic stories, I think more attention needs to be given to this. Because that detail is really important! It suggests the motivations of those people.
Thanks for your comment. We imagine coming back to WPATH again in the future
Of course we want another episode discussing WPATH's SOC8! It would seem that trans, eunuch, and nonbinary are defined in SOC8 is as biomedical identities: a person desires to have a particular physical appearance, particular body parts, particular body functions, and this is framed as the person's struggle to have their body align with an "identity" that is essential to their mental and emotional well-being, and medical practitioners provide what the person needs to do this. The identity is, therefore, biomedically constructed and supplied to the consumer, the person who desires to embody it. But to have national health care systems and insurances cover the procedures, this transaction between a consumer and a supplier in the "market of identities" is still defined as medical. It is not medical or medically necessary just because it necessitates a medical practitioner to carry it out.
Desire is increasingly redefined as need. This is also evident in "safe spaces" in universities: a student "desires" to not be upset or made uncomfortable, to not be taught this or that... and that desire is a need, and that need is fulfilled by the university as if it was a supplier of commodities...
Please, do revisit this document. As long as it represents “ standards of care,” it should be picked apart to reveal all of its meaning. (Or lack there of)
At the end you asked if your listeners would be interested in hearing more analysis about SOC 8. I think the answer is yes. Certainly for me. You all do great work!
Be sure to tune in Monday for a special episode about this!
@@widerlenspod thank you for this!
Thank you ladies, I can’t believe your work isn’t more closely followed. There is a clear agenda ,the more I listen to you guys, thanks for helping me peak, best episode so far .
“It shouldn’t be called the affirmative care model. It should be called the consumer driven model.” Absolutely! This is the reason the US is doing more quick transitions than anywhere else. Profit is king.
Thank you! This will be a great resource to point people towards! Let’s uncover and reveal this scam operation!
Thanks for listening
Fantastic episode. Thanks so much for this one. Please do revisit it. SOC7 slipped through in the shadows--the more sunlight on SOC8 the better.
That detransitioner definition is full-on fruit loopy! 😮
By the way, I noticed what seem to be a few typos in the extended notes (in the video description). I've bolded them below:
Bullet 3
- "The Standards of Care are misguided and *fully represent* the citations they are based on."
Should this be 'do not fully represent'? Or 'fully misrepresent'?
Bullet 7
- "In *SOC 7*, a chapter on ethics was removed from the document yet the chapter on eunuchs remained."
Should this be 'SOC8'?
Sierra Tango Charlie. Stop you grinnin and drop your linen. I found ya!
Thank you for all the work you do, and for helping so many people!!!
I did appreciate the history of WPATH been told as it did help me understand this more.
They really are vile, hope Justice comes to them soon.
Thank you both so much for doing what ya'll do, and more thanks for this episode because this was something that needed attention. I work in mental health and it has astounded me how millenia of collective human understanding, including modern social, psychological, and biological science is being dismissed in favor of quite radical activists ideology. I also know it takes very brave people in this field to speak out! Thank you both!!
Thank you for this, and please do more dissecting of this document! Where are all these mountains people that WPATH claims are surgically self castrating themselves now and throughout history??
This makes me crazy. Here in the US, my husband could get his balls cut off far more easily than he can obtain opiates for pain relief. Same goes for euthanasia (the state’ll kill him, but won’t allow him to relieve his pain). Ridiculous.
In answer to the final question… yes! Deep dive into the WPATH SOC doc!
Thank you and more please.
This needs rigorous challenging.
Yes! If they are what everybody thinks of as the experts but they aren't, then they are at the heart of the problems globally. It would be good if real experts got some protest going. The good people have left them because they didn't stand behind the new standards of care, but outsiders do not know this if these people just stop working there, they still think it's an official organization of experts that they look to for some kind of standard.
Sounds like this needs all the attention it can get!
Thank you for leaving such useful links in there.
100% agree that the definition of detransitioner was disgraceful; to the point of dehumanizing.
I've just read/listened the part on eunuchs and it is one of the most surreal things I've ever come across. Utterly bizarre. Not sure I can even process it.
Have come back to this episode after listening to Michael Biggs in episode 101. Evidence and standards are closely linked.
I'm just talking to someone who is DEFENDING the eunuch section... There's really no talking to these people. It's like they're so deep in this ideology they're willing to extend and extend their sphere of what is reasonable and sane until they're way out in the far flung reaches of the galaxy. And it means waving through some really REALLY dangerous people and ideas (q weer theory)
Please revisit the topic again! I want to hear all your thoughts!!!
Yes, I'd definitely be interested in more on the SOC 8 topic. I reviewed it last year and naively thought they'd come correct on their insanity when they released the real version. Boy was I wrong.
Why does this document link to "The Eunuch Archive"- I clicked on it- it's a repository of fiction about castrating people, including boys- it's password protected- but I've seen a list of the titles on the wayback machine- why on god's green earth would this be in a Standards of Care document?
Great podcast. Eye opening. Also very concerning. Wondering if you could let us know which of the references seem to be misrepresenting the information in the actual papers? I'd like to look into this myself. Thank you!
The turn transgenderism has taken towards an individuals perceived want and commercialisation is horrifying especially given children are being targetted through school curriculums and MH services.
I'd be interested in further discussion of WPATH's SOC.
Add eunuchs and drop ethics ... thats the whole problem in one sentence.
Yes, thanks for watching
Please interview Kiyah, ideally with video. Her interview with Buck Angel was so compelling and brilliant, but for the widest acceptance I don't want to share Buck with others.
Eunuch feels very matriarchal. It was common practice when there was a matriarchy. I wonder who is behind all of this. I do see currently so many female physicians performing these “surgeries”. Seeing these women at the forefront of the mutations has shocked and sickened me to my core. Where did it all go wrong when we lost the nurturers? The protectors of children.
Feminists were the ones who wanted men to be "more like them". Guess what happened.
Has Sasha and Stella already had an episode about wpath's depraved/perverted origins? If so, which episode # can I find it? Thanks
We cover the history a bit here: ruclips.net/video/feJ3GRb8viE/видео.html
Good job Ladies!
Please consider asking Lauren Bone and Candice Jackson to come on "GAWL" to add their view from a legal stance.
The fact that I’ve now heard in 2 places that WPATH has a connection to that eunuch archive site or whatever is absolutely terrifying. Genevieve Gluck did a whole segment on this as well.
She's great, thanks for listening
Yea to more please
Oh my God, this document is bananas.
Ute Heggen (
They need to be shut down, investigations need to be done, & people need to go to prison.
Yes to more
WPATH files have leaked!!!!
Medical ethics has ceased to exist. Trans people do exist. We see you loud and clear. For sexual inclusiveness for kids in schools, you see, every alphabet of LGBTQIA is about sexualities. Every color in the pride flag is about different sexualities. Same sexualities, Gay sexualities, Lesbians sexualities, Bi- Sexualities, Trans -Sexualities, Inter- Sexualities, Queer sexualities, ++++. Sex should not be in classrooms. it is impossible to discuss types sexualities without having a discussion about sex with children. This is called grooming.
You NEVER want children to feel comfortable talking about sex with adults. Period! The reason is that the child safe guards to sexual abuse break down. Children become comfortable talking about sex and open up to become prey to pedophiles. No parents want this. LGBTQIA couples can't procreate, yet these people are making decisions for heterosexual couples who do procreate. SAD! The wonderful Gov. Desantis banned LGBTQIA books because the books contained porn and sexually explicit pictures and grphic material. You must bec18 year old to read porn abd sex explicit books, not K-12. The books include Flamer, This book is Gay, Red, White, and Royal Blue. Not all boys are blue. And many more. No parent should accept grooming of their child by teachers with agendas and by LGBTQ IA groomers.
Martin Mary Martin Kevin Robinson John
Brown Donna Gonzalez Larry Martinez Linda
“ privileging gender affirmation over body affirmation“
Gender schmenda, get over it girl and hand over the money.
The consumer-driven, desire-driven model seems to me to be an important element of the argument that transgenderism is part of neoliberalism.
Transhumanism
WPATH seems like a rather unwieldy acronym to me. Could I suggest a new description for them?
Making Each Nice Gender Eagle Love Everyone. This is quite easy to pronounce.
clever!
First, please ask yourself the question why there are people who want to detransition!
It means something went wrong at psychiatrist and psychologist. Why they could not make a difference between a real TG person and Social TG person? Because they say same things, they feel same things. The only difference is in brain. Real TG person has different lower brain sturcture, while Social TG person feels the same thing, TG issue is limited only to neocortex which is highly palstic structure. And when real impulses are starting to getting through from lower brain parts, people find out their real gender. It is similar to placebo effect. So, psychiatrist must work together with brain scientist, not just guess and do politics.
What's the research you are basing that on?
I thought the whole different brain/wrong body thing had been debunked long ago. Are you sure it isn't more likely that it's more common in people with certain biological conditions not that it is innate? Are you saying then that only two genders exist and we can rule out all non-binary ppl for example?
If your supposition is true what percentage of people are trans in an average society?
@@robertmarshall2502 based on brain scientists Lucy Biven and Jaak Panksepp works. It's not dna that entirely determines brain developement. Like sexuality, (hetero, homo, bi etc.) gender is also hardwired in your brain that is impossible to change. Still, neocortex is quite powerful in some people that is able to mask underlieing desires, emotions in brain. Or vice versa create physical problems.