Boiler Types: Standard vs. High Efficiency
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- Опубликовано: 7 июн 2024
- This video with our own Bill Bailey discusses the difference between non-condensing and condensing boilers. And then even dives down into the difference between low mass condensing and high mass condensing.
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Excellent lesson. Slow, clear speach. Every word useful
Bill, you are a great teacher. Thank you for your videos and for sharing your knowledge with us.
You have a great way of presenting things, Thank you for the great information
Bill you are great at explaining equiptment and applications of use we need more people in sales doing this instead of people that have read brochure and worried about bonusses
Thanks for the instruction. I understand boilers a little better. I now know that my application would require a hi mass. Didn't know the difference before.
This guy explained it so well!
This guy really knows what he’s talking about and he explains it well
Great job and great speak speed. I can keep up with you. Thanks much!
What model number is the HTP high mass boiler? Thanks
That was actually useful. Setting up a low mass boiler with a buffer tank (built in). I do that with geothermal on heating cycles.
Great video. Thank you.
Great explanation !
Thanks
Very clear explanation 👍
Well done thanks
Great info in this series. Any online courses available? Working in the sandbox but we'll see ho much longer it really lasts. Bought a used home in 2009 with a hydronic system plumbed with polybutylene tubing. Boiler is original from 1992 and my boiler tech is still able to keep it running but time to change shortly. Need to replace as much of the Poly with Pex Al to reduce or eliminate air into the system. I bought a scrubber but didn't get it installed. Tech says I need air valve to purge air from the radiator systems used upstairs. Not sure who installed the original system but it's basically a 2 temp system. Lower temps for basement floor and then main floor with tubes in a gypsum pour. Upper floor is high temp and I'm thinking 180 deg which is also the hot water storage tank temp in the winter.
I'd sure like to do a complete redesign with more modern valves and controls and either go to larger radiators and lower temps or maybe under floor heat transfer plates. But that means busting open the main floor lid to install them and I'm not sure if the plates are more efficient than radiators. Thinking about gypsum pour and floor tubing but the weight might kick me out. Haven't run the number in that yet. Retired USN plus 13 years in the sandbox. About time to relax a bit. Time goes so darn fast.
Go to tecmungo.com/training/ and click on Live and Recorded Webinars
What i have Researched the High Efficiency Gas Boilers are the Best. What i need to know is how to plan to use this for heating a Garage or work Area of 2000 square Ft. But I know ceiling Hight and Insulation is a Big Thing. So figuring Ceiling at 14 Feet with a flat ceiling i think would be Best plus R- 30 to R 38 Insulation would be Best and a R-13 to R-19 Wall insulation for the Side Walls. My next Question which Door should I use. I want One Door 12 wide and 12 or 13 ft tall. I think a insulated Door Would be best but Witch Door Brand?
Perfect thanks
I had two of these boilers fail in 14 years.The first one started to leak and the second one caught fire. I'm lucky my house didn't burn to the ground. Fortunately I was home and caught it before anything bad happened. I replaced the boiler with one that I feel very comfortable having in my home. I would never use HTP again. I'm glad you have had such good luck with them.
We have had excellent success with HTP. Sorry to hear you have had issues. We offer lots of brands boilers and HTP has had the least amount of warranty type issues.
thank you
If I use a primary secondary loop will this be more efficient on a low mass boiler when using zone valve. or a viessmann low loss header
The Viessmann low loss header does create a primary secondary arrangement. It is the same thing. You can use closely spaced tees, a Caleffi hydrolic separator, a low loss header, or a Boiler Buddy to separate the primary and secondary loops from each other. We would not expect any energy differences between the options. All of them should save about the same amount of energy as compared to a traditional pumping system.
Quite informative. While the hot water heat is very comfortable it has been expensive for me to operate. What I find is my 82 % unit is thirsty. I wonder how u calculate the amount of baseboard needed.
Please take a look at our "Right Sizing a Boiler" video to see how to size a boiler system.
ruclips.net/video/h00dAUaOa9o/видео.html
The amount of baseboard needed in each room is a function of the "load calculation," or sometimes called the "heat loss calculation." This is something the system designer would calculate based on dimensions of the structure, air leakage, insulation, windows, etc.
Why do you say it is expensive to operate? Expensive compared to what? Compared to a gas furnace? Compared to electric heat? Compared to a heat pump?
I have a Beacon Morris kick panel heater that supposedly puts out up to 12500 BTU’s on high would I add the 12500 BTU on top of my Fin tube calculation. Any advice as always is much appreciated. Thanks for the great vids.
Not sure what you are asking
Oh, I see. You meant to add that question to a different video on boiler re-sizing, so we answered it there.
ruclips.net/video/h00dAUaOa9o/видео.html
Quick question sort of: Do you have any knowledge about issues regarding unusually shorter on/off boiler cycling due to the longer time that it takes for in-floor heating concrete floors to heat up? I've read complaints about some thermostats being used for concrete in-floor heating applications and it seems that they only read air temperature and not the actual temperature of the concrete (no imbedded temperature probe). This can lead to a situation where the boiler is constantly trying to “keep up” with the thermostat’s much shorter interval calls for heat thus overworking the boiler. Does this really happen and is there a solution? Thanks.
The floor sensors are a nice way to control, but you can do it with an airside thermostat. Once the slab is warm for the year, you shouldn't have any issues with short cycling at all. In fact it is often the opposite. If you are short cycling, check to make sure a) the boiler is not oversized, b) the boiler is a modulating condensing boiler with at least 3-to-1 turndown (and hopefully better), c) that you are not trying to put the system into a setback mode. We are huge fans of programmable thermostats... for everything except radiant slab heating, and d) that your smallest zone's BTUh requirement is not lower than the lowest firing rate of the boiler (if it is, you need a buffer tank).
@@TECTubefilms I must tell you that I'm still learning about my home heating system. I have a Viessmann Vitoden 200. The specs say 6.5:1 modulation ratio. Not sure what you mean by "not putting the system into setback mode". My thermostats are Honeywell TL8100 programmable and I read about the short cycling issue with these on the Amazon reviews. So I should ditch these and go with non- prog for my slab heating? Thank you so much for your help.
@@almason253 You can keep the programmable, but just do not program it to "setback the temperature." A radiant slab takes too long to heat up and cool down for an airside programmable stat to be effective.
@@TECTubefilms Ah! I see now. (I can be a little dense sometimes 😉) Thanks again for your assistance.
Chris it depend on your system and how its piped. Do you have a high mass boiler or a high efficiency low mass one? If your radiant loop is piped off a mixing valve it will require the boiler run any time there is a call for heat on that zone. If your radiant is supplied from an indirect tank or buffer tank your system can satisfy heat demand from energy stored in the tank without running the boiler. Its cheaper to use a mixer vale so many installs are done this way. It’s not the best way especially if you have many small zones or an oversized boiler that doesn’t modulate low enough. It sounds like you have either a design flaw or an installation problem. Hydronic systems aren’t rocket science but so many are installed incorrectly.
When is the next video coming out??
There is a video pretty much every week. Go to ruclips.net/user/tectubefilms and click subscribe and click the notification bell icon.
I wonder if the High Mass Boiler can also accommodate usage for hot water for faucets and showers?
Yes, we do that frequently. We pair the high mass boiler with an indirect storage tank. An indirect looks like water heater, but there is no burner and no flue. Instead it has a hydronic coil in it. The boiler feeds hot water to that coil and that coil then heats the domestic water in the tank. We don't want... and most codes do not allow... the water in the building's hydronic loop to be the same water that comes out of the faucets, hence the need for this water-to-water heat exchanger (indirect tank). The high mass boiler shown in this video is a HTP Pioneer. It has a built-in control sequence, called domestic hot water priority, for this exact setup. You need to add the tank, a thermal sensor for tank temperature, and DHW circulator to the system.
Alternatively, we sometimes use either low or high mass boilers to directly heat domestic water. In these cases, there is no space heating involved. We just heat the domestic. We operate the controls sequence a little differently, but it can be done.
remember, if the furnace goes out, no hot shower for you.
Are these only gas boilers?. I had a peerless wbv series tankless hot water oil burner installed . Is it low mass or high mass? I have 3 zones it's shortcycling and not heating my house when it's really cold. Contractor can't figure out why. I'm trying to figure out if the issue is that t's oversized or that low mass. Help
We do not use oil boilers in our market, so that is not our expertise. Most oil boilers that we have seen are high mass and single stage. You are correct that short cycling is often caused by oversizing, but other issues can be in play. If it is a low mass boiler with a poor turndown ratio and that is coupled to relatively small zones, that can cause the boiler to ramp down and then shut off quickly.
If your technician is unable to determine the issue, they should bring in an expert form their company that can. Or bring in the local boiler manufacturer's rep to help diagnose.
Isn’t an oil fired boiler more efficient than propane? In regards to BTU per gallon.
I don’t have access to city gas so oil or propane are my two choice’s.
More efficient? No. Less expensive? It depends on your price of oil and your price of propane. And unlikely natural gas and electricity prices, oil and propane prices are more volatile.
Oil gives more btu's then gas. So yes in a way.
By coupling a low mass boiler with an indirect water tank, will that achieve the same result as a high mass?
What do you mean? An indirect water heater is a more efficient way to heat domestic water than a typical water heater. And a low mass boiler is generally more efficient than a high mass. Finally, it you have different load temps, such as radiant, and the boiler needs to change output temp to heat domestic water, then a low mass will respond better. We don't see any scenario in which a high mass boiler would be preferred over a low mass to heat an indirect tank.
Tec Tube As you pointed out, the difference between the high efficiency low mass and the high efficiency high mass is the tank on top of the high mass. Hence my question above about pairing a low mass with an indirect fired water tank to achieve the same effect as the high mass.
@@QuangNguyen-lr4cm Ok, we understand now. The term "indirect tank" is specifically reserved for domestic water heater so we thought that is what you were asking about. Yes, you can couple a low mass with a tank to increase the mass. We had done that for many years before the HTP Pioneer was available. In that application the tank is very different than an indirect tank. An indirect tank has a coil inside it to keep the boiler water and domestic water separate. However, the tank you are talking about, which is called a buffer tank, has no coil. The one we use a lot is called Boiler Buddy.
Does a buffer tank make sense in a high efficiency combi unit? I Only have two zones. Upstairs and downstairs.
Also, does a "pre boiler" buffer tank make sense in a HE combi unit to get incoming cold ground water up to room temp before being heated?
The time you would use a buffer tank would be when the smallest zone (in BTU/h) is smaller than the lowest firing rate of the modulating boiler.
We don't know what a pre-boiler buffer tank is nor do we know why you would have incoming water. For a hydronic boiler heating system, you would be circulating the same water over and over and would not have new water. It sounds like you are talking more about a domestic water heater than a space heating boiler.
If it is a condensing appliance... space heating boiler or domestic water heater... it will most efficient with colder incoming water. This will allow more condensation and latent heat recovery.
@@TECTubefilms I am looking at a combination boiler that does both the closed loop baseboard heat and also does the on demand hot water. I agree the incoming water should only be for the on demand hot water and would not be applicable for the baseboard heating loop.
@@TECTubefilms Thank you for the information. That is surprising to hear! I was thinking that heating 60 degree water from a tank up to 120 would be less effort for the heater than heating up the cold winter ground temp water up to 120.
Is PVC required for high efficiency boiler? Would I be able to use chimney for exhaust on high efficiency boilers?
Because of the condensate, the exhaust piping material needs to be made out of PVC, CPVC, PolyPro, stainless steel, or other non-ferrous metal. You cannot vent it into the chimney. If the chimney is no longer used as a chimney for other appliances, then you could re-purpose it as a pipe chase for the PVC pipes.
@@TECTubefilms thank you for the explanation
If you asking that, better don't mess with those.
@@786otto We agree. Gas fired equipment is not something for an untrained and/or unlicensed individual to attempt to install.
Anyone happens to know what is the efficiency of an early 90s cast iron boiler? not the earlier heavier cast iron floor standing boilers? thanks
Generally 78 to 80% AFUE for residential cast iron boilers. Look at the tag and just divide the output BTU/h by the input BTU/h.
many thanks for taking the time, much appreciated, just pressurized the system to see if its water tight, it ok thank God just 2 weeks ago also the pilot flame heat actually stays in the boiler unlike with an open vent flow pipe warmish n seems to heat just a touch faster If no pressure loss after couple of months i'll feel confident to have it pressure clean n fit a new Vaillant combi not sure u have the Vaillant in the USA but they are the most reliable combis on the market hope i be saving about 50 to £80 from the standing pilot about 15 to 20%% from the better efficiency n Lots on the instant hot water on top water on demand, take care n once again thank you, PS even with all modern safety features i still believe an open vent is the safest way Gravity never lets no one down LOL cheers
@@polygamous1 You must have a huge pilot light if you can notice its affect on heating the water. But even though that pilot heat is not wasted in the winter, it is in the summer. No reason to burn gas when you want zero heat. That is why pilot lights were outlawed in the US in 2012 for residential boilers.
Which of these boilers are used for steam?
None of the boilers shown in this video were steam boilers. The maximum for a residential steam boiler is about 82-84% efficient. To get more efficient than that, you need condensing technology and lower water temps... hence not possible with steam.
Does it make sense to put a buffer tank with an old 1950's boiler? It seems like everyone says old boilers are oversized but is there a solution to that issue. Natural gas is will never be an option where I live. In the future I would to go to a pellet boiler or ATW heat pump.
The age of the boiler is less important to the discussion that the volume of water the boiler holds. We are going to assume that your old 1950s boiler is a cast iron and is a "high mass" boiler, hence holds a lot of volume. Therefore adding a buffer tanks is less critical as compared to a stainless steel boiler "low mass" boiler. All the tank does is add water mass/volume.
Yes, the vast majority of boilers... old or new... are grossly oversized. The best solution... especially for older boilers... is to replace them with a correctly sized boiler. Check out our video on sizing - ruclips.net/video/h00dAUaOa9o/видео.html
How efficient is that 1950s boiler? Probably 60% when it was new and even lower now. You are due for a boiler replacement. Even the lowest efficiency boiler you can buy today is 82%.
What is your fuel source now? And is it less expensive to heat with that fuel source than the electricity consumption of an air-to-water heat pump. Where we are in the Chicago area, heating with electricity (including heat pumps) is fairly expensive compared to NG or LP.
My fuel source will never be natural gas. Not available because of railroad tracks nearby. The boiler is 55 percent efficient. Love to goto a pellet boiler
Where is a good place to get supplies?
Your local wholesaler.
are they 80-85% units allowed in new installs? i thought most codes require he units
Energy codes are specific to geography. For all of the states that we deal with in the Midwest, 80 or 82% is the minimum efficiency for gas-fired hot water boilers depending on boiler size and residential or commercial application. The IECC 2015 and 2018 versions match that also. In addition to building codes, for small boilers under 300k, they are regulated by DOE to a minimum of 82% for hot water.
By "HE," we assume you mean high efficiency condensing boilers. Where do you see code requiring boilers be above 90% AFUE or TE?
Washington state codes are pretty tight.
Wow, Washington requires all boilers be 90%+. That is huge. Even in strict energy codes states, we do not see this type of requirement as a code minimum due to venting challenges. Do they require 90%+ in both residential and commercial buildings?
I just looked up Washington energy code. They are following the IECC 2015 which only requires the boiler be 80-82%. However, it looks like they have an additional state amendment that forces you to do something extra to earn credits. Installing a 92% boiler or 94% furnace is one of the optional ways to earn 1 of those credits. Certainly an interesting way to regular code... sort of a choose your own adventure type thing.
Thanks for info, trying to get my heating system up and heating again, my old boiler is done, a traditional cast iron type, and thats what I want to replace it with, seems like the heating Co.s in this area got one thing on their minds vitodens 100, they don't want to install any thing else,viessmann must be giving pretty good kick backs cause these units have about 2:1 against on the Internet for reliability.,my old boiler was 23 when it gave up a high efficiency boiler would not likely last 15, 10 is about all your likely to get, no thanks.
We have been installing high efficiency condensing boilers since the late 1990s. They last 20 years or more with ease. However, unlike cast iron boilers, proper installation and regular maintenance is more critical to their longevity. They are less forgiving.
If you want the longevity of cast iron, the high mass effect, or other benefits of more traditional boilers, but you still want high efficiency, we might suggest HTP's Pioneer. www.htproducts.com/pioneer.html
BTW - Only 23 years for a cast iron boiler is a problem. The ASHRAE life expectancy is 35 years for that technology. There may be something odd about your application, piping, or other install related items if it died so soon. When you say "it gave up," we assume that means a cracked heat exchanger?
Viessmann makes a good boiler. Bill, the presenter in this video, used to distribute their products a couple decades ago before we acquired his rep firm. They are popular in Europe. Where do you live that you have multiple contractors recommending it? It is pretty niche.
@@TECTubefilms I live in 100 Mile House British Columbia, the installed price here on a re and re is $9000 to $12,500.
My experience has been the added complexity cost more: More complaints, more maintenance, more aggravation, more expense. The older, stupid/dumb cast iron units are bullet proof and when maintenance is required (every 4 or 5 years) almost any tech can service it with parts readily available from Home depot or your local hardware store. This reduces the overall cost of ownership drastically. This is true whether it's for my single family rental or my multifamily apartment building. The older I get, the more I appreciate the value of simple and cheap. As much as I dislike dealing with diesel, and cast iron, it just works and is very forgiving of sub-optimal operating conditions.
We use 82% cast iron boilers in addition to 98% high efficiency boilers. There is not one solution for every application or every customer.
@@TECTubefilms Exactly right. An expensive lesson I have learned is that true cost of ownership is actually quite difficult to figure. So, for example, that 98% efficient Crown boiler I installed cost way more than anticipated when those yearly $1k maintenance bills came. That's a lot of additional run-time for the inefficient 80% unit with its $150 yearly maintenance expense.
@@blackmanops3749 Wow! $1,000 per year in schedule maintenance. That is more than our trucks. LOL
You should use; induction technology; as heat sourch!!
Induction Heat Boilers are a thing. We just have not seen any available in the US, though. Additionally, heat pump boilers are more efficient than induction boilers and both are all-electric, so we doubt induction makes its way into the US market faster than heat pumps.
Induction might be a good choice for domestic water heating, though. Because in that case, heating water fast is a benefit. And induction can be fast. But for space heating, speed is not a benefit.
You should also mention you will need a electrical power spike prevention device for the digital computer of the furnace.
Or else your expensive modern controller will get fried during a nasty storm or hurricane.
If I had a dollar for every time he said basically I'd be able to buy two boilers.
He he says basically 1 more time I will die.
Basically; I believe you.
It's the "Basically" guy
I basically lost count, LOL.
Flame rectification probe and a thermocouple are two different things. It's either one or the other.
True, you can have either or. But both have the same job... which is to prove you have combustion. As Bill stated, modern boilers are more likely to have a flame rec probe, but in the "old days," you would have had a thermocouple instead. Hope that helps.
Nice explanation of the low mass vs high mass boilers. Just so others know since I see it often if you have a low mass boiler and it is short cycling you can add a buffer tank to help prevent that and improve the efficiency of the system.
True. ... and Bill may even be talking a little bit about buffer tanks in the hydronic series of videos forthcoming :)
ruclips.net/video/Y-8EWK1Moh0/видео.html
Look me in my eyes when your talking to me
We aren't on a date Walter. LOL
That was on of Bill's first videos so he was probably looking at the other people in the room instead of the camera.
@@TECTubefilms just for laughs
What a snotty answer!
I know exactly what Walter is talking about.
Look people in the eye if you want their respect and trust.
Y2k
Just plain spendy for the fuel. I didn't figure out the design correctly. Probably not enough fins n undersized unit. Pretty tough with heat loss until u see how well the construction n settling goes. I went with outdoor wood boiler. Paid for itself in 3 years n I'm on my ninth year. Can't find returns like this on much anymore.
Don't like that 3" flue air pipe, that needs some work.
You don't like that the size is 3 inches? Or you do not like the way the 3" pipe is installed? In our defense, that this probably above the 3rd boiler installed in that specific workstation so we are frequently adapting. LOL
@@TECTubefilms Hi , the size is to big, most boilers now up to 200K BTU using 2" pipe, 2" pipe is lot essay and installer friendly when you have to penetrate building envelope.
@@786otto Understood. It is a function of inducer motor static ability. In the case of our lab, that pipe was installed in 2006 for a different boiler and then re-used later for this boiler. It is okay to be a little oversized on vent pipe, water pipe, and duct work. But we don't like oversized boilers, furnaces, and A/C. :)
@@TECTubefilms Thank you for reply.
Don't ever have an HTP product in your home. Nothing but trouble.
We have used hundreds of HTP boilers for 15+ years with great success and little issues. And Bill Bailey (the guy in the video) has been using them even longer. Is your statement based on a specific issue that you have had in your own home or based on you working with these boilers on multiple occasions?