Myth Busting! Tank -vs- Tankless Water Heaters
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- Опубликовано: 27 апр 2024
- Want more info on tankless? Check out @rinnaivideos
www.rinnai.us/tankless-101
Chapters:
00:00 Intro
00:28 Tankless won’t work with Hard Water and Scaling
01:32 Tankless does not do well w/ Cold Ground Water Temps
03:15 Tankless is expensive to purchase & instal
04:21 Venting for tankless is too expensive
05:37 It takes too long for the water to get hot
06:27 Stainless steel heat exchangers are better than copper
07:51 Low gas pressure makes installation of tankless unaffordable
08:34 Tankless is a new technology that has not been proven
09:24 Wrap up w/ Eric's two decades of installing tankless
Great content as always Eric!
Thank you for mentioning water quality. Tip for others, make sure the water conditioning equipment will allow and condition/treat at the required flow without to much pressure drop.
Great tip! Thank you for adding this.
What about electrical water heaters
@@billkerber4187 there are tankless that run on 220v and don't require any venting at all.
@@mechanical-hub In what areas do you provide installation cervices?
Biggest problem: using FOSSIL (un)natural gas for anything!
It is only a little less FILTHY than coal(!!) and WAY filthier than everything else (solar, hydro, nuke, wind, …)
USA must get off the fossil madness!
Using heat pump tech for heating houses and tap water is the future (actually it has been used fir decades in civilized places)!
District heating is another option, circulating heated water from garbage, minimizing dirty landfills… cleaning the exhaust is of course necessary.
Your discussion is great about gas fed tankless water heaters. You need to expand to include electrical tankless water heater vs electrical tank water heaters.
And please include comparison of electric tankless vs gas powered tankless
I was just looking for a comment like this. Exactly my request as well. I moved from one city that was abundant with gas lines though that state wants to ban natural gas (CA) to another state that where most of the homes appliances are electrical. Sure you can have gas but the city was requesting an initial charge of $10k to feed in a gas line..
Jesus is the only way to healing, restoration and salvation to all souls. Please turn to him and he will change your life, depression into delight, soul heading from hell to heaven all because of what he did on the cross
“Whoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved” Romans 10:13
This is a water heating thread. you're looking for the walk on water thread. @@HaroutBlack
Most homes would need an electrical service upgrade to run a tankless electric water heater, they need 60 - 120 amps @ 240 volts.
I had a lime coated tank that I replaced with a Renai. I love the tankless upgrade. No water softener needed. Every year or two, isolate the unit with the shutoff valves and use a small sump pump to run white vinegar through it to dissolve the lime. You will never need to replace it.
Yup. Exactly the same experience I had with a Rinnai. They make a great product.
Use a gallon of CLR in your tankless, and it will last FOREVER. My last RV trailer had a tankless and I saved on LP and had all the hot water I ever wanted. My Airstream Excella Motorcoach has a Cummins/Onan Diamond series liquid-cooled gen-set that puts coolant into my hot water system and provides 90% of the heat for my water-brilliant set-up!
Jesus is the only way to healing, restoration and salvation to all souls. Please turn to him and he will change your life, depression into delight, soul heading from hell to heaven all because of what he did on the cross
“Whoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved” Romans 10:13
@@HaroutBlack How is he about installing heaters, though? Is he licensed? How much experience does he have? How long do you have to wait for an appointment? I know a guy who had an appointment, Jesus showed briefly and gave an estimate, and we haven't seen him for years now. Getting tired of waiting for his second coming.
I would stay away from clr. It might remove the sediment but it might go too far. White vinegar is far cheaper and is a food grade cleaner@@Walkercolt1
2009 I installed a tankless. It was great. I was out of town weekdays and only in on weekends. What a great savings. Always endless hot water with extra high usage on 2 days of the week.
Thanks for the overview, and you make good points, but after owning a Noritz condensing unit for four years, I'm not a fan of tankless heaters.
We renovated our house, which had two 40 gal tank heaters in parallel. Contractor's plumber convinced me to install a tankless Noritz to replace the two tanks ("instant hot water!"). I said I wanted to keep one of the tanks as a backup - in series, bypass-able, with thermometers on the inlet/outlet/return of the tandem arrangement so we could troubleshoot the loop if needed. Plumber said I wouldn't need it but agreed to install all the bypass valves and the thermometers I asked for because it was just extra income for him.
The tank heater - 10 years old at this point, and still going strong -- has saved me from running out of hot water at least twice or three times each year when the tankless has failed (about 10 failures in total). More often the tankless doesn't fail entirely but errors-out on high exchanger temperature, requiring a bypass if you are showering, and a "wait and reboot" sequence. But with the failures, I've had to replace an air-gas mix valve, an air fan (the turbo charger you talk about), the water mix valve, a control panel, a PCB (printed circuit board), and my personal fun-in-the-hot-attic event: full heat exchanger replacement. I am so thankful that I kept to my guns with the spare tank as I would have been completely without hot water multiple times over the past few years until Noritz sent a part to me. And although Noritz has warranted parts, troubleshooting takes several hours of my time, and in the case of the exchanger replacement, expensive plumber's time.
What you didn't mention in the water quality section is that tankless need to have much cleaner systems to operate. I clean my system each year with vinegar at minimum, or the solution when I feel like it. Our system is on relatively soft city water, but I have an inlet filter for both the city supply and the hot water return line. I do this solely to ensure the tankless doesn't foul (it did foul a few months after commissioning due to teflon in the line - that's when I installed the filters. Tanks, although they do collect sediment, are much, much more forgiving.
Kirk
I’ve had a very similar experience with my rheem. Several parts sent for free. several events of zero hot water. Always parts failure. mixing valve twice, circuit board twice. thermocouple/ sensor once.
All I have to say on this subject is that I highly suggest you get to know ALL the requirements of installing tankless way ahead of time. I learned the hard way that there is way more complexity to tankless than one might think. This was far from a simple swap in my case.
Exactly, which means you need a plumber and electrician to do something anyone with basic tools can do themselves. The hardest part about installing a water heater is getting rid of the old one.
Yes, thanks for tip. Sometimes you need a blunt reminder to do your research.
@@kcobabe In some areas you have to hire a plumber to install a water heater, you can't go buy a new heater and install yourself
@William Castleberry I would like to know where this. In the US this is not the case. I come from a long line of fitters and plumbers and they stretch from coast to coast.
I got lucky as my gas and water lines were easily changed and my vent went straight out the wall through OSB and siding.
I installed a Bosch in my family’s summer cottage almost 30 years ago.
I would do it again in a heartbeat.
Had to clean the pilot one time.
Provides plenty of hot water from cold well water.
It’s great. I can only imagine how great the new ones are.
@@billyjack8081 Boy,isn't that the Truth Billy Jack! Consumers are getting ripped off by these newer inferior products! And I believe it is intentional!
@@billyjack8081 old appliances waste enormous amounts of energy. Thirty year-old fridge needs to be dumped.
does it have a conventional pilot light, or is it electronic?
@@kenovryn Wrong...
@@RAREFORMDESIGNS A 20-year-old refrigerator could use 1,700 kWh of electricity every year, compared with about 450 kWh for a similarly sized new ENERGY STAR model. At an electrical cost of 12 cents per kWh, that represents a savings of $150 per year
A comprehensive video and I learned a lot about tankless, EXCEPT for the cost.
A water heater in Canada is about 7-800 bucks, I change them every 10 years or so.
Tankless Rinnais are very expensive here, next door neighbour paid $11K to have one installed.
The units are around $6-8K to buy.
I'm certain there are plenty of comments here to confirm these numbers, with the US being lower in their $
Not sure where you got those numbers but my brother lives in Fernie, BC and just paid $3200 total to have tankless installed.
rannai i120 is $3648 in Toronto Home depot rn and thats almost top of the line model. where did you get the 6-8k buy price???
@@happytrails317 canada is a backend country. we produce everything for the US yet stuff here's so expensive
here in Chile I can say it's 99% tankless. a good one, (medium range quality) will cost about 400 USD. depending how big is your house, you may need two, mine is 1507 sqft and I need just one. they last forever, mine has 10 years, it's outside and only needed regular maintenance every couple of years, maybe less, brand: Junkers.
I put in a tankless water heater 16 years ago. My plumber put in a “big blue” filter with a phosphorus insert and I have very hard water. I have it flushed out every couple of years. It’s working great!
If you get a water softener, your water will heat faster and you probably won’t ever need to flush it. There are several other benefits of soft water also. Check it out with a reputable water treatment provider.
Too much upfront cost. Only 4 more years and you will recoup your money. Then you can buy a new one.
I never buy into much of that crap. People don't live that long to make a difference. My last HW heater lasted 20 years. I win.
@@lostintime8651 guess you dont have teenge kids LOL
What does it cost to have it serviced?
Have been in our house on well 35 years…on our 3rd water heater which my husband (not a plumber) installed…think we’re ahead. Replacing a standard water heater is probably a lot easier. We had a 60 gal water heater when the kids were home and the last one for the two of us is now 40 gal…have never run out of hot water. Our replacement water heaters have been $150-$350 and our electric bills are not excessive. No one answer for everyone…there are a lot of variables like perhaps all copper insulated plumbing which holds the heat in the pipes when everyone is showering in the morning or the day I do laundry. As well…we have a water softener with a by-pass for the cold drinking water so it’s not salted.
I’ve had a Jacuzzi made by Rinnai tankless water heater since 2015 replacing an old tank heater and we just love it. Everything you say Eric in your video is factual. And I do recommend a tankless water to anyone that asks. The installation was a little expensive, but the maintenance I do myself is simple and easy and we are very satisfied. Thank you for making this video. PS because they last twice as long and so efficient well worth the investment.
I've only had one tankless heater installed, but I assume replacing it will be cheaper than the initial installation, since the wall mount and piping is in place, right?
The plumber also said there's a potential to replace parts of it instead of the entire unit.
So far it's been about 5 years and I haven't done any maintenance and haven't noticed any degradation.
I have been using a tankless for the last 5 years.I love this thing. It is really neat the way you dial in the temp, and it stays at that temperature.
Thanks a bunch Eric. We have a hotwater tank in our home for 15 years and now looking to get into a tankless unit soon.
Costs are only comparable to replace a tank water heater with a tankless heater in a few circumstances.
The tank water heater needs to be by a wall, if it sits out in the room next to the furnace then you will have to move the water heater location to a wall or have a wall built. Tankless water heaters cannot float in midair. If you are moving the water heater to an existing wall now you will need to rerun the water pipes, gas line, and flue to the new location. (All at additional cost compared to replacing a tank water heater with a tank water heater).
All residential water heaters require a 1/2" gas line. Almost all (but like you said in the video a few don't) require a 3/4" gas line. So most tankless conversions require upgrading the gas line to the heater. (At an additional cost compared to a tank-to-tank replacement).
All tank water heaters are vented with either the metal flue pipe along with the furnace (or with a power vent heater PVC). Less than 20% of tank water heaters currently installed in homes are power vent models. So, a tankless water heater requires a whole new vent system to be installed. (At an additional cost compared to a tank-to-tank replacement). I am not even mentioning the size of the job if the basement is finished and now you are cutting open drywall ceilings to run the vent pipes.
Having the recirc feature set up on a tankless water heater diminishes the efficiency of the heater. Now the heater fires up (on the model you show in the video) a 200,000 BTU burner (that's bigger than most residential furnace burners) to heat and circulate the water to the sink. If you have a gravity feed recirc line to the tank water heater this is done continuously at no additional cost.
I noticed that you don't tell people that with a tankless water heater you have no hot water during a power outage, but with a tank heater you still have all the hot water you normally do when power is on. You might have to shower by flashlight but it's hot water.
It sounds like your tankless water heater costs you money in utility bills. Your daughters wouldn't be able to take super long showers if they didn't have unlimited hot water. Think of how much water you would save with 10-minute showers.
You state that you charge pretty much the same to replace a tank water heater with another tank one or a tankless. In Nebraska the average flat rate for replacing a 50 gal. water heater with a like one is $2,000. A typical tankless water heater conversion runs about $6,000. A 50 gal. water heater is $700 and your model tankless runs $2,700. If you install tankless water heaters for $2,000, put me in your next open slot and come install a tankless at my house. If you charge $6,000 for a tank water heater installation, how do you sleep at night?
The question I ask homeowners that are considering switching to a tankless water heater is, "do you run out of hot water on a regular basis?" (Like you, several daughters showering or a big soaker tub that is used regularly)? The main benefit of a tankless water heater is the ability to have unlimited hot water. But if you don't constantly run out of hot water this isn't a feature that is really needed.
Even with the higher efficiency of a tankless compared to a tank type you will not see that significant of a decrease in the utility bill. The majority of the gas consumed a month is by the furnace not the water heater. Most likely you won't even recoup the additional cost of switching heaters after 20 years of a slightly lower utility bill.
You got that right. If they need more hot water and they have a tank you can turn water heater up and put in temperature control mixing valve. In St louis a tank water heater can last 30 years +. No tankless will last that long. Tankless have their place like for the family with eight kids (8). Commercial kitchen Where they never have hot water at end of night to clean. A tankless cost three times as much $500 tank labor $450- $1000 or $2000 for a tankless A good one. labor $1500- $4000 Add softener or filter and If you have to move it close the door.
They make electric powered tankless heaters too.
Yes, I agree. One thing I noticed is that there is no mention of maintenance. I understand with a tankless there is a scheduled maintenance program required. If that's true, it might be very expensive, especially for someone who has to have it done by a contractor because for whatever reason the homeowner cannot do it his/her self.
We had one for 17 years and it never failed. The only issue I wish you would cover is the unit not firing when you open a faucet slightly. When we would barely open a sink faucet to wash hands, wash something gentle, the water demand wasn’t enough to tell the unit to fire. Not a huge problem, but a problem nonetheless. Great video sir!
Newer units have a lower threshold (due to increased technology allowing a wider range flame size), also try bumping the temperature setting down a notch so you are using ‘more’ hot water
That is the same problem I had with tankless. I wouldn’t do tankless ever again.
Usually if its older its is because either the flow meter is lethargic or the heat exchanger is having issues from either scale or age and not allowing to fire on low flow. Second older units have a higher flow rate to get the unit to fire. Also be sure your unit is maintained.
Navien is the only brand I would consider.
The activation of a tankless water heater is triggered by water pressure drop. If the faucet is not open sufficiently, the pressure drop will not be sufficient to activate the water heater. Today’s faucets may be a problem as well because they are a water saver design which does not allow sufficient flow rate to activate the water heater. You can overcome this problem by modifying the water
restriction device. Open up the hole in the restrictor until you achieve a flow rate that will allow your water heater to activate.
This was an exact replacement for the old one that lasted about 10 years. ruclips.net/user/postUgkx7yWIKcrbA9KMHkGSfcgxW2lsjHT6B8Sh The top of my mitigation tube by my roofline was just a 90 elbow which allowed too much debris to fall down into the fan, eventually ruining it. Without this issue, I bet it would have kept running another 10 years. When I replaced this fan, I added an extra elbow joint so the top tube now it does a 180, which should solve that problem. The radon guys around here wanted to charge me a $300 diagnostic fee, then parts/labor (probably close to $600 total). I installed this all by myself in about an hour for the cost of the fan; it would probably be even easier/faster with two people. FYI the manufacturer's warranty greatly differs depending on whether you install it yourself (1 yr warranty) or have a licensed installer do it (10 yrs).
Love mine got a rheem from Home Depot put it in myself 10 years ago. Just had to get used to the COLD WATER SANDWICH, that small delay that runs a little cold water through the hot pipe behind the already hot water that has been sitting there since the last person used the hot water.
Thanks for the video
I love the tankless upgrade. I’ve had tankless now in two homes, one in the warm climate of the BC and another in the bitter cold climate of the north Alberta, great in both. We’ve never had an issue with a shortage of hot water as noted in the video. I love the tankless upgrade.
I had a large Rannai tankless heater installed over 20 years ago. It has never failed - not once. It's still running like new and I've done very little maintenance on it.
Same experience
Time to change it out.
@@sniper.308 your reasoning?
@@peted5217 learn physics 36,000btu per hour or use 40gallon water heater. 200,000 btu per hour use tankless on demand. Gee wiz Peter hmmm
Great content, great discussion. I'm a super fan of tankless and have installed it some pretty novel applications. Our current home will likely receive an upgrade to tankless when the current water heater moves on.
I live in Wisconsin and installed my rinnai tankless 2 years ago. It's awesome. Most issues are due to incorrect sizing, incorrect gas supply or maintenance. The larger units due require upgraded gas supply, and a plumber should be able to identify this. Although it's simple, look at your meter. You need a minimum 5psi supply for a high volume tankless. This also means you'll likely need a 3/4" supply to your water heater from a 1" main supply. This line should come before your furnace, which is probably on a 1/2" supply and probably requires less gas than your water heater.
Got quoted $5000 for gas tankless heater or 1600 for tank heater
Thanks for the great information
Yes under “certain parameters”, cold ground water does indeed effect the tankless water heater. You’ll need a bigger btu unit than what you would normally need for your home.
true that, check the temp rise on the unit, ive seen 77degree temp rise. you might have to slow down the flow or increase the BTU to keep a nice hot shower going. I went to spain and there are alot of tankless there. I got my hot shower, but had to slow the flow down quite a bit.
And a regular water heater needs time to heat cold water. So as the hot water tank draws down the output temperature drops … so your “hot shower” is time limited with a tank after which the next person needs to wait for recovery time.
Tankless no wait time for recovery so you can have 5 or more people shower one after another and you will not run out of hot water.
@@Davidjune1970 Actually there are ways around this. Any standard tank WH is only going to give you about 80%- 85% of its 'reserve' as the cold water comes in to replace the hot that was made....as was said, a lot depends on the temp of the cold water coming in. But say you have a standard tank 40 gal, gas WH. If you have the space, you can add a 50 gal electric to the system as your draw/reservoir tank. The electric tank is always being fed at least warm water from your gas WH and the amount of HW reservoir to draw on from the electric HW is upward of 90%. I've installed this setup in families with three teenagers/two adults and they all get to shower with plenty of hot water.
You're not spending the typical $$ that an electric WH would use because the gas WH is doing most of the work..... it heats the cold water coming in and feeds the electric WH that has become your HW reservoir. It's therefore an easy job for the electric WH to bring your temps to whatever you set it at. And where this system really goes for cheap is when someone is getting rid of a newer electric WH to put in a tankless. I've gotten them for free!
@@TheReal1953 So, double down on the old, less efficient tech, rather than move to the proven, better solution. That makes no sense whatsoever.
My unit had a switch that I turned up in the winter and down for the summer.
Mr Eric, thank you so much for sharing your profession, as well as the info on "tankless" water heaters. My wife & I have been kicking this idea around to convert from tank to tankless; with this info, you have given me a more clear picture of how it operates, things involved to consider and the price point. When you said putting in a tankless is about the same as a tank, from price to labor, it really helped us to made a knowledgeable decision. We will be putting in a tankless system. Thank you for knowledge & for sharing. God Bless from Pennsylvania.
I believe he was talking about new construction and not replacing an old one, kind of misleading information.
Don't do it. They aren't that great man. You did hear him say this was a sponsered video right?
Make sure to check the electrical requirements with respect to your electrical service/circuit breaker panel. Not trying to talk you in or out of your decision, but just wanted to help with planning. Hope all goes well.
@@paulmendez7679 Thanks for the info Paul, with the age of our home (it was built in 1870), we are upgrading ALL the electric & plumbing before upgrading any equipment in the home.
I'm always blown away with 40 degree water...! Here in Sarasota, Florida, our water hits the faucet at 85 degrees...!!! Thanks, keep up your awesomeness and don't forget to compliment someone today...
Great review.
I have personally installed 8 so far in various rental properties we own. Best was mid pandemic AO Smith 240 160k BTU ($1500 complete) to replace the 80gall HW tank in a 7 unit apartment building. It has run flawlessly & I no longer receive calls from frustrated tenants about no hot water.
I installed a Stieble 24 plus in our Scottsdale winter home ($875 complete) & the gas consumption (kitchen cooktop & HW tank were the only appliance on NG) went from $165 to $13/month. & that was for the month of June when outside temps were 100deg & the temp in the garage was 115-120deg where the old HW tank sat cooking itself on a medium heat setting.
I installed 2 Steible 20plus units in a duplex to replace the old rusted electric HW tanks in a damp flooding prone basement crawl space. Both units were installed in the bathrooms of each unit ($800 each complete) & have run flawlessly for 2 years. NG was not at the street. Electric consumption reportedly dropped significancy.
8 years ago I also installed a Steible 24plus ($699 complete) at our all electric Lakehouse. Highest electric bill with a/c etc running was $71. In the same period, our Lakehouse neighbor went through 2 propane HW tanks at $2300 each time, he also had to drain them to winterize. He just broke down & went with a Steible 29plus.
On our larger homes I do install recirc pumps & the annual vinegar flushing is the only PM. When/where necessary I simply winterize with RV Antifreeze.
My BIL just had one installed for $7200, but at least he did eliminate 2 75gall HW tanks.
Operating costs for the tankless are much lower for me. I live alone, and am frequently gone for several days at a time. Not paying to heat 40 or 60 gals of water that isn’t even being used is key. Still having unlimited hot water available when the whole family arrives for special occasions is perfect. I highly recommend the Renai. My first tankless lasted 10 years, but my tech said it wasn’t a quality one and replaced it with the Renai. Going on 8 years on this unit and no problems. Even the one that only lasted 10 years more than paid for itself in energy savings.
Thanks Eric,
I think you oversimplified purchasing cost. It is NOT a myth that Tankless water heaters are more expensive than tank water heaters (initially). From what I saw the cost lies more in the plumbing. I got two similar quotes last year to install a tankless water heater (including parts, labor, plumbing) and they were nearly $10,000, whereas a tank water heater was about $4,000. The tankless heater did cost more, but there was a huge additional cost due to the ""complicated plumbing"" of these types of water heaters.
With that being said, the tankless water heater I looked at had a life expectancy of about 20 years, whereas tank water heaters have a life expectancy of about 10 years. After calculating how much I would save in gas because of the efficiency of the tankless heater, and having to replace my tank water heater after 10 years, I determined that I would start saving money after 12 years if I went with a tankless heater.
I didn't chose a tankless because I don't plan to stay in my house for more than five years and it doesn't contribute enough to my property value to offset the cost.
But, if someone is financially able to tie-up $10,000 and plans to stay their house for more than 12 years then it makes sense to get a tankless water heater. (At least from my own calculations and experience.)
Note: The tank water heater was 40 gallon and the tankless was "its equivalent". Both were base models.
Hope this helps those looking at this video.
12 year ROI is terrible. Just for comparison, with an electric tank, I calculated a 2.7 year ROI for a heat pump electric. I don't remember the exact number, but it was something like 8 years for a ventless dryer over traditional, and similar to swap AC ceiling fans for DC. Most houses will have many other options with a shorter ROI.
Still, your prices are for new construction. (Or you're getting ripped off.) There's just no argument for swapping from a tank to tankless. Myth NOT busted.
The problem with your anaology is that you're not applying it to water heaters - where a 10-year life expectancy is minimum. So the first 10 years would be equal, whether you pay $4k or $10k therefore you're not gonna gain any ROI.
No one should be paying 4K for a 40 gallon typical water heater.
You could always just learn to sweat pipes, & plumb it yourself. That'll save you a couple grand.
@@mariatorres9789 Oh yeah - cause education and an apprenticeship is oh so cheaper 😂😂
I really appreciate your videos. They helped me build my shed about 6 years.ago. Thanks so much! Steve
We have two tankless systems in our house. One gas in our main house and one electric in our in law suite. Both are Rinnai. Absolute best decision ever to go tankless and Rinnai has been incredible.
I worked for Rinnai and they did not make a total electric tankless waterheater
@GaBullDawg1334 "We don't make an electric model, because there are several potential drawbacks to electric tankless water heater units. First, the power requirements of electric units large enough to provide hot water for a typical household can be prohibitive." @gobdeep is full of shit
Upgraded from a cast iron boiler to a Rinnai combi boiler which is a boiler/ tankless water heater in 1. Saved tons of room. Works great and costs less.
@@neandertull6777 It's the i120CN. Live in a 1600 square foot town house. Works great for us.
I lived in Amsterdam as a child, from 1950 and on, we had a gas tankless hot water heater (called a Geiser) situated above the kitchen sink, it also served our shower etc. . Most apartments in Amsterdam simply didn't have space for a big hot water tank. The first time I ever saw a HW tank, was when we moved to Canada..
Yes in Europe they have been used for decades the old ones were very simple and trouble free
Best water heater I ever used was a ancient (50+yrs easy) oil fired hot water heater.. house had oil heat and oil hot water, when you'd turn on the hot water you'd hear the boiler kick on and within 15sec you'd have water that was literally just shy of boiling coming outta the tap, now granted not so good if you have small kids but it sure was nice to always have more heat than you needed. It was a tankless style too, you had unlimited hot hot water and it wasn't too bad on oil usage too.. I moved to a new home though and that became an often recalled thing of the past, but it was so nice to have water at 210° instead of 150 or so
I agree with you, I have had a tankless water heater for approximately 20 years, no problems. I love not running out of hot water.
you are damn lucky, buy a lotto ticket now
I’ve had tankless gas for 8 years now. Totally love it. I do the annual maintenance myself, and it’s quite simple. I also have a filtration system to ensure a clean supply of water. It works fantastic. I’ll never go back to a tank.
A carbon filter will eliminate chlorine as well as filter out debris. Soft water will eliminate scale build up and a good water regulator will provide a consistent flow rate for accurate water flow adjustments. Water temperature is determined by the amount of time the water takes to pass through the water heater. If it takes to long, the water will overheat and the safety switch will prevent the gas from heating the water. Too fast, and the water won’t heat up to the desired temperature. My unit is designed for a flow rate of 2.5 gpm. I’m 78 years old and a former industrial piping designer. I installed my tankless water heater in the early eighties and have never flushed it yet and it is still going strong. That’s about 40 years ago. Still have the original bill of sale and instructions. My local plumber didn’t believe me till I showed him. He’s since changed his mind about tankless water heaters.
Just went with a tankless water heater but I want to clarify one thing. This is later 2023 and the price of a good tank electric water heater was round $2,000 to $3,000 installed in my area. The gas tankless water heater we put in was a little over $6,000. So for us any type of ROI is basically shot, but we are hoping for a $15 year ROI, however time will tell. Our last water heater lasted 17+ years, and it is fronted by a water softener, so the hope is that this tankless will last at least 15 years. So the myth that tanks are less expensive is actually true, at least here in the Midwest. Again we went with a tankless for other reasons, but if cost is your number 1 concern, then you can save a ton of money initially by going with a tank.
Steve, like you I live in the Midwest. My 40 gal tank hot water heater is 30 years old. The wife and I grew concerned about the age. Our plumber, who in our opinion, is very honest said wait till it fails before replacing. Plus they'll install a new 40 gal tank heater for $1500.00 including the price of the tank and the labor. My decision of going tank or tankless is an easy one.
Even more so. A tank isn't 2 grand. It's more like 500 bucks. And they are stupid simple to install or replace. I am not fooled by that sales guy for a split second. Practically all his claims are wrong.
@@Antiorganizer I am only comparing the price that was quoted by multiple vendors. I have had people tell me a tankless is "stupid easy" to install as well. Having said that getting a near 20 year old tank full of sediment cut out and out from our basement is not "stupid easy" for someone like me. So again this is the cost difference that I was quoted and I wanted to let people know. Now are we happy with our tankless so far. Yes. But not because it saves it will have a ROI in a year or two or even five.
@@SteveMichael When our old tank went, I drained it, slid it out, put in new one in, and Bob's your Uncle. Used a dolly and help to get it up the stairs.
Tank was like 500 bucks.
Tankless is like 3 grand thereabouts.
Electric tank might cost like 100 bucks more per year to run.
It would a very very long time before the tankless start saving money.
Another problem is that once people invested in it and have it sitting in their house, they don't want to feel bad about their decision, so they make up argument to make it seem that hey came out ahead, when they didn't.
I bought a Tank water system for around $750 last year and installed it myself cant justify 2 or 3 grand for a new hot water heater
Anyone who is as old as I am most likely always listened to Paul Harvey and his news reports, I remember him talking about these tankless hot water heaters back then. I am glad this fellow mentioned the water quality. Too many times people get the wrong idea about "spring" water and its quality and clarity. All water no matter the source needs to be treated. Even then it can still be bad quality. For instance, where I live the county does treat the water but it is still pretty hard and scaley and it destroys coffee makers, especially the Keurig's.
You covered a lot of good points for going tankless. There is one install cost that can be very expensive, and that is for the electric models. There are older homes in areas that don't have easy access to the power requirements these things call for. My parents had a handyman talk them into a having him install a tankless. When inquired to why the water was just luke warm, he said it was working just fine when he installed it. This is when I decided to start learning about tankless. The most important thing about the electric version is that they need a lot of amps to work properly. The unit that was installed was a smaller unit, but still required a lot more than a #12 wire on a 40 foot run. That's right, the handyman used the original cloth wrapped #12 to power this tankless that calls for #8 in a fraction of the distance. The framework design and flat roof of this house does not allow easy replacement of any wires to this breaker box. The cheaper option ($4,300) was to run power from the meter main to the heater with #6 along the outside of the house with a new disconnect. After that, the hot water was working great, no more fire hazard and I was able to sell the house.
Nice
Amazing that it takes an electricle engineering degree and an over taught person to install a wire. In the Philippines, everyone installs there own 240v electrical wiring and panels. Yes, the climb the poles and tap in wearing sandals. No gloves. I asked them, is this grounded, does it have a neutral. Answer, it works. Who cares. 4 years no problems. Two wires coming in to a panel. Your government has you overprotected so they can make you pay.
SCREWED BLUE by the not so handyman. Put the tank one back in on the 12g wires for $500 or less.
The biggest cost for gas tankless water heaters is not the unit. It is the special vent pipe that is required. Unless you are fortunate enough to be able to mount on an exterior wall and vent directly through the wall to the outside, the pipe cost (including elbows, collars, and flashing) will run more than the gas unit itself. I speak from experience.
I installed my own in 2015. Rheem was the only company at the time that would not void the warranty if it was installed by a non certified person. I have had zero issues. Make sure you use the right PVC to vent, mine had to be solid core, not foam core like big box stores usually carry.
I had a new gas tank type water heater installed about 10 years ago and it was $1200 for everything. They wanted over $4,000 for a tankless. I don't know of the costs now but I would say back then there was a very big difference in price
I think it depends a lot on how much vent work you need done or if they need to increase the size of the gas lines (or the electrical work you'd need to run electric which can take up to 150 amps).
I think it depends on who is in charge of ripping you off. The number for both of those seems high. You must be in blue state.
I too am an HVAC technician.
I have a tank water heater.
Can you imagine why...
If you have a tank heater and want to go tankless. you have to repipe the water, gas, install a flue to outside, have to watch for windows, and run power for it. Costs add up quickly and for what? Power goes out, no hot water. Want to take a shower and someone turns on the laundry or dishwasher, tempered water. Been a plumber for 40 years. You dont need high tech and a computer board to make hot water. Havent seen a tankless yet that lasts as long as a tank water heater.
I've built quit a few custom homes and never found the tankless heater was able to justify the added cost. Even over the life of both tanked and tankless heaters the savings from the tankless heater never made up for the difference in cost. The only reason for the difference in cost, in my opinion, is greed on the part of the tankless companies.
My Polaris high-efficiency hot water heater has a tank, along with a similar exchanger like the ones in these tankless units and the hot water is endless no matter how many showers I run. I just hate the condensation that spews out of the combustion stack. Great video!
By far the most instructional video I’ve seen explaining Tankless W/ Heater. I learned new things coming from family of plumbers. Keep on making this videos please .
I had a tankless in my last house and I loved it. I plan on swapping out my current tank heater to tankless. almost instant temp adjustment, endless hot water, takes up much less space. I've seen no downside.
Agreed. I installed a combi boiler and it was one of the best decisions we’ve made as homeowners.
My current apartment actually uses a big boiler. I've never had such hot hot water or an endless supply of it.
It's absolutely wonderful when I'm hurting a lot. If I ever rented another house I'd actually try to talk the owner into putting one in & even offer to cover part of the cost. Just because of how much it helps me. It's one reason I don't want to move even though I'm in a crappy neighborhood. The other is the convenient bus route nearby.
We installed a Rinnai tankless hot water heater in 2003. Still have the same unit and no issues 20 years later. Raised 3 daughters and a son and we have never ran out of hot water. One of the best investments we purchased for our house when it was built.
I bought a Westinghouse gas tankless hot water heater that is perfect! Been the best water heater I have ever owned and will never go away from them.
I’ve had tankless now in two homes, one in the warm climate of the Deep South and another in the bitter cold climate of the north. We’ve never had an issue with a shortage of hot water as noted in the video. I would add only one suggestion, in my case I use an re-circulating pump external to the tankless water heater. It is a Taco brand and it has a feature where it learns your pattern of hot water use, so instead of always re-circulating it will learn for example when you normally shower in the morning and kick in before that time to have hot water available instantly. Thanks for the video.
I was thinking about a re-circulating pump but I was thinking to connect it to my bathroom light which is controlled with a sensor switch.
I have a tankless in my newer home. I keep my circulation pump off because the tankless would keep turning off and on continuously .
@@mattbowers3541 Replace it with a Smart Circ Pump or put the circ pump on a timer. Depending on your local climate, even just circulating a few minutes every hour can help.
Eww you take shower in the morning? Take shower before bedtime to get rid of the germs you accumulated throughout the day. Your bed will thank you for smelling good lol
The bad thing about my home,like Thousands of homes in Florida built in the 60s and 70s is the copper water lines are buried directly in the sandy soil under the slab. So I just checked my kitchen sink, it took one gallon of water before I got hot water. All the videos talk about the cir pump getting the water hot then shut it off, well that water under my sink might be hot for 6 or 8 minutes but if I wait just 2 minutes and use the hot water it’s already cold, the sandy soil just sucks the heat out.
Used on demand for both potable and heating a 2300sf house in the very cold nny. Worked great, but yearly maintenance was necessary.
Thanks for the wonderful information. We are considering a tankless and this is a great help.
We have a gas-fed tankless water heater and have noticed a couple issues with the technology. First, you must maintain a minimum hot water flow in order to keep the heater heating. If you’re using just a trickle, soon any hot water in the supply line gets replaced with cold, and then you have to go all out hot to flush the cold water out, and water gets wasted. Circulating pumps would help but then the water heater runs a lot more, decreasing its efficiency. Second issue is that if your electricity goes out the gas water heater won’t run, (unlike a tank water heater which doesn’t need electricity) unless you plug the tankless into a battery backup UPS…
How old is your unit and do you do the required maintenance (vinegar flush)? I bought a house with a tankless water heater...that hadn't been maintained for years. I replaced it with another tankless and have had NO problems with flow or temperature.
I had a tankless in Germany. It was a two-stage that clicked over from warm to hot depending on water flow(?) Showers alternated between cold or scalding. Real fun.
Genau. I had experience with a four stage unit there. I could feel every shift in the shower.
That’s the mixing valves problem, not the heater
@@barrywiegert9743 No, it was a showering problem. I'm not a plumber.
@@Greg042869 Yes! You have no idea what a mixing valve is do you? There is a valve behind your shower wall that is thermostatic controlled. It mixes hot with cold so you can’t get scalded. Educate yourself before commenting
@@barrywiegert9743 I did away with that and instead implied common sense. Its as rare as gold now days.
I live in the Nashville, TN area...I've had a tankless for about 10 yrs now...will never go back to a tank water heater...can take a shower, run the laundry, and do dishes and never bother anyone in the shower...best investment i've ever made...
This is a very good and accurate video.I installed my first gas tankless in 1976.All the local experts called me crazy with the usual facts .Or more acurate opinions.Fast foreward to 2020.I moved into a new home ,had to do extensive repairs.I removed the 40 gal conventional tank and had a Electric tankless installed..Not surprising all the usual comments even from the plumber.Well the same result.
Would really enjoy the difference between a gas and electric comparison.
Same here. Where I'm at, gas isn't an option. We have three people in an apartment with a compact tank (looks to be about 30 or so gal). In the winter, when the incoming water supply is extremely cold, we have to time it so that there's a half hour or more in between each of us taking a shower, which means that we're having to get up way more early than we really should so that everyone can get ready. Plus, we each only get at most10 minutes of hot water, because as the incoming cold water replaces the outgoing hot water in the tank, it's mixing with it and lowering the temperature of the hot water still in the tank, so the "hot" water isn't really even lasting for the time that would be expected of 30 gallons at 2 gallons per minute. If we could replace it with a tankless, and everyone be able to take back-to-back showers (or even better, all at the same time, since we have multiple bathrooms), we'd all be able to get another hour or more of sleep.
Same here.
Electric tankless water heaters in my opinion are not a good choice. To get enough hot water out of an electric tankless water heater you would almost need 120 to 150 Amps of electricity.
Agreed. I want to know the cost difference, especially since there is no gas available in my area. So I’m trying to figure out if tankless is even worth it in my situation.
@@DetectiveMartin it will not be worth it. I think temperature rise in the winter is only 60 to 70 degrees. So water out of electric tankless would only be around 100 degrees with about 35 to 40 degree well water coming into the house.
As I’ve already got a gas supply to my existing water tank & when it was installed, they installed a vent line as it was a high efficiency device, you’ve convinced me that a tankless is a viable alternative. Thanks for the info!
Natural gas sizing is very important...you could be going from a usage of 40,000 BTU to 200,000 BTU quite easily..find a professional to size this load before you make a decision on what tank you will use...you may not have much to change or very easily have to redo your whole gasline or maybe even your meterset,
I lived in Spain in the 80s and tankless water heaters were everywhere. Our family of four would go threw about 5 gallons of butane every two weeks. We also had snow. Our water was always more than hot enough and we never had an issue.
I just got a tankless, up from a 24 year old tank (god only knows how it lasted that long). The old one was not making hot water very quickly and it was not dispensing very quickly either. It was in my attic and I was *terrified* of a catastrophic failure.
Having had the tankless for a couple of weeks now, I can tell you I love it. I genuinely am looking forward to the gas bill, because I'm pretty sure the CCF I was using right before the replacement is going to be 2-4 times what I'm using now.
Lesson to be learned............ NEVER believe a person recommending a product when THAT person is the one selling and installing them! We had one for years and while it worked fine, maintenance was ridiculously expensive and not just any plumber knew enough about them to even consider repairing one!
Well, that was a great sales pitch. When I recently choose to stay with my conventional tank style water heater, the deciding factor for me, which he didn't talk about, was the recommended preventive maintenance for tankless units. My old unit went 23 years using supply water with a high TDS reading requiring virtually no preventive maintenance. It probably would have lasted longer had I flushed it annually and replaced the anode but even 15 years like the one he cut into would have been enough for me avoid the labor-intensive tankless units.
Not on the new ones
Absolutely correct. If you do not supply conditioned water to the tankless water heater you will have nothing but problems with it. And with plumbers charging between 150.00-200.00 for a service call, any savings by converting to a tankless system will soon be lost.
tankless are good for nothing...........Put one in bosses house, had maybe 40 ft run, water never got hottttt,,,luke warm
@@ttfahd did he turn the temp up on it? They are just like the traditional water heaters that come with a thermostat.
I switched to tankless from electric after going through 2 electrics in 6yrs. The first had been in the house for 15yrs before I bought it and it died my second yr. The second one rotted out in 4yrs. My tankless has been in place 8yrs with no issues. I flush it every 2 yrs. It takes about 30min to do. Fortunately I work for a propane company so I can borrow the flush kit without having to pay a service call. You can buy the flush kit for about $150-200 or you can make one for cheaper money. All you need is a couple gallons of white vinegar to flush through the system. Not a lot of maintenance in my opinion! I have high iron content in my water, by the way, with no filtration!
One thing to keep in mind with tankless water heaters is to get one with a digital controller. The turn knobs are not good at fine tuning to get consistent temps between showers and sinks.
I had no problem adjusting the knob. I turned it once and noted how far it was turned and the temp difference which was 24 degrees. I wanted a 16 degree difference so I dialed back one third of the increase. So it took a total of two adjustments. Nothing hard about that.
I was using propane powered tankless heaters in Spain in 1964. They were cheap and worked very well. They have been used all over Europe for a very long time. I recently converted to natural gas her and heard the same myths when I enquired about tankless, especially the “our water is too cold here one”. They did install a larger meter because I expressed an interest.
I installed one 18 years ago and after a year I replaced it with a tank heater because if you reduced the hot water in the shower it would often turn off the unit which left you with cold water unless you increased the hot water flow again. The incoming water in the summer time here is pretty warm so you need very little hot water.
hopefully current models have a adjustment so you can control the pressure at which the unit turns off and on....
Not a problem on current tankless heaters.
Then you didn't have the correct unit for your application and low flow isn't an issue with current units
Why not just turn the cold water up ?
@@mariacompton1416 I think you missed something here, reread my post
Most don't enjoy the cold water plugs between hot water usage. Search Cold Water Sandwiching on youtube
I changed my cold water heater from tanked to tankless 15 years ago. It was made by Bosch. The reason I chose Bosch was due to the fact that most of my power tools are Bosch and I appreciate the quality and longevity that they provide. Seems silly that I chose a tankless water heater based on how long my hammer drill has lasted but I go by company quality devices rather than media hype. Like the video says endless hot water!!
did you often run out before? So your result is still hot water? I'm not going to shower longer because I know it will still be hot. That's for a sauna. Besides I have places to go. If you require less than endless. Why should I pay extra for something
I don't use. It's not bad of corse. Just not towering over with greatness... For me. And Bosh along with an obscure brand that's hefty if you can find any old tools around from Ingersoll Rand.
I bought a bosh thankless and in a yr it quit, they wouldn't fix it and gave me my 1k back. I'm back to tank and very happy
I had a Bosch NG tankless forvabout 8 years that had a turbine to ignite it and required no electric. It was mounted in an exterior wall and dueing an extreme cold spell it froze and burst. We couldn't get a replacement locally and in a timely manner so we went back with a tank.
Now after having a high wind event and having been without power for 3+ days, I can't envision requiring electric to run my gas water heater. I'm not sure if there are still any tankless that don't require electricity?
Had a Bosch dishwasher in my last home. Loved it. No room for one now, but I would buy another Bosch if I had the room.
Great video. Thanks for sharing. I replaced my electric tank water heater a couple of years ago when the tank finally rusted through developing a leak with an "Ecosmart" tankless. Everything you stated about their advantages has been my experience.
It did cost more for me to install than just replacing the tank heater with another tank heater. The unit I purchased is a 3 stage 40amps per stage electric tankless. I had to buy the wire, the breakers, and a small panel for the breakers because my 200 amp breaker panel was full. My old tank electric water heater was a single 30amp circuit (#10 wire), so I had to upgrade to #8 cables. I did all the work including the electrical upgrade myself. I installed a valve kit that allows me to backflush the water heater. I have yet to do that but need to at some point. I've got a small pump and will circulate vinegar through the heating elements from a bucket.
Ditto that. My house was built in 96. I am the third owner. As typical with cookie-cutter houses in my area, the breakers for the big stuff are all outside, and there is a small sub panel in the garage (which mine has the grounding and neutral tied together, tisk, risk, the inspector didn't catch that) which handles all the outlets and lights in the house. If course, the sub panel in the garage was only 60 amps and was full, less one half-inch opening. Basically, the builder NEVER thought anyone would want to upgrade beans!
So since the had planned on adding a tankless someday (and an electric one is really the only option here), I knew I'd have to upgrade the sub. So using my electrical training (I had an electrical license at one time), I upgraded the garage panel to 200 amps, and used a new service entrance panel (to have the disconnect right there) and then I had room for the electric tankless, the circulation pump, a couple new circuits in the kitchen, and a second washer and dryer on the second floor (so the people who would occupy the four bedrooms upstairs would not have to take their clothes all the way downstairs to wash them, leaving the downstairs washer and dryer free for power towels, kitchen towels, and the maid's quarters... Perfect.
@@mattalbrecht7471 👍👍
Great presentation! So many folks are so-o-o uninformed! I am using my 2nd Takagi (Japanese) unit since 2003. My first one was a, T-K2, 185k, BTU, with natural gas (largest capacity I could get then). My 2nd one is again, Takagi,TK-3010U-I, I installed back in Oct, '22. I can't believe the old one only lasted 22 years. Guess they don't make'm like they used to :). I am not HVAC, but a reitired RN and jack of all trades, ha ha. I first learned of tankless hot water systems while living New Zealand back in the '80s. Very popular. We had a Rinnia unit, not sure which model, and we also had another one gallon, (or 4 liter) capacity, electric wall mounted tank for "cuppa's of tea," both natural gas, in the kitchen (most businesses there had one of them in their breakrooms.) My plumber buddy helped me install the 1st one, back here in Kansas. It was all new to us and we probalby broke some code rules. We vented it out with triple walled, stainless steel, ducting into a three story brick chimney. But it lasted for 22 years safely. Like you, we never ran out of hot water, for showers, dishes, launday, and bathrooms, since. We raised 8 children and have all of the appliances that takes also. We do have a 50 gallon holding tank, that feeds the hotwater unit, from our 2009 geothermal heating/ac unit. Our Kansas public water is 58 degrees into the house. The the tankless unit call for water is delivered just under 70 degrees from the holding tank. That makes a great difference in temprature change especially in the winter when the geothermal is in its heating mode. MYTH MYTH MYTH. People just do not know.
It is so neat you are out there to let them be aware. GOOD on you! I subscribed and I LIKE!
Randy,
Hay seed in Kansas and money in the bank from my savings in water power bills.
Thanks for the very interesting video. Built our house 17 years ago. Put in a good quality non-condensing propane water heater. Maintained it and finally replaced it last year (house of 8 people, very happy with it. Never let us down). Replaced with a condensing unit. Interested in your opinion condensing vs non-condensing. Sorry if I missed that video from you. Thanks!
Our biggest complaint about tankless has been the "luke warm" water you will get at a sink when turning the hot water on and off at a kitchen sink while handwashing dishes. The delay for the burners to kick on after it senses flow allows bands of cold water to exit the unit before the water is up to desired temp. This results in a luke warm output at the sink. Outside of that we love it and wouldn't consider going back. I have considered a loop to the heater from the kitchen sink that will run for a set time after flow is detected, just haven't done it yet.
I have the same issue when shaving in my bathroom sink. See my comment above (or below.. where ever it shows up)
Sounds like they need a AI module ? 👍🤷
I love my Rinnai tankless. I do live in an area with hard water, but I installed a water softener to take care of that. I've now had it running for the last 5yrs without a single issue. I do flush the tankless once a year myself (very easy to do) with the flushing kit - takes about an hour. The main think I love about it is that I never ever run out of hot water! My biggest peeve with tank water heaters was the timing of showers. Most families shower approximately around the same time back to back .. and sure enough .. after 2 showers .. the 3rd person would be out of luck with luke warm water at best. Does not happen with tankless. I also live in a warm area and we are able to do 2 showers and the dishwasher (on hot) running at the same time - no loss in temperature (mostly in pressure - but that's not the tankless fault). Anyway, I highly recommend them.
350 to have unit flushed in Silicon Valley
@@Peter-td3yk I flush mine myself .. Amazon sells a cheap flush kit .. run some flushing liquid through it .. or you can also use cooking vinegar (lots of RUclips video's showing how). The one thing I will pay for is to have someone come and clean out the fan and heater assembly .. recommended to do a general cleaning of those every 5 - 7 yrs depending on how dusty your area gets.
@@Peter-td3yk way too much to pay somebody unless you are just unable to do it yourself
Great video and great replies. I’ve always wanted to go tankless with my background living in singapore and Seoul SKorea… all unites we lived in had tankless. Well presented!
Well, I am moving into a Montana home that uses a tankless and I was unsure about it until watching this, so thanks much!
Regarding price, the cheapest Gas tank water heaters are about $400, tankless about $900 for the cheapest ones, $500 is quite a bit cheaper
One thing I will be doing to maybe improve heat retention on the long runs of plumbing is to cover the pipes in foil and then the closed cell foam insulation . This should (hopefully)reflect the heat back to the plumbing delivering hotter water while using less energy to do so .
Don’t waste your money on foil it will do nothing just wrap in foam if anything
That's dumb. Just use normal insulation like everyone else does. The heat you lose isn't radiant heat. Aluminum foil is a heat conductor.
20 years in the trade as a wholesale supplier here, only problem I see personally with this video is Rinnai. Boy those things are a treat to work on compared to say, Navien, or any other brand for that matter. It’s like taking apart a German sports car.
3 things, 1. Clarify using propane/natural or electric type units (mine is an electric with THREE(3) 60 Amp 220v breakers. 2. All thankless hot water heaters should be "backflushed" yearly to remove trapped hard water waste (Install flush kit when installing unit on incoming/outgoing lines). 3. My FIRST experience with thankless hot water (and I was blown away by this) was in 1983 (yes, 1983!!), while stationed in Germany.. I was never so happy to have "instant" hot water that never ended (providing "fuel" was present).
I have 1 tank in my home, if I redo my hot water situation.. I would change to a unit at each location (ie.. bathroom/kitchen etc).
Other than power requirements, if you go electric, I love these (I do not have the brand you mention).
Thanks for the cool video
I've been meaning to make the switch from tank to tankless for years but kept believing it was way more expensive. I'm already on my third water heater due to the tank leaking. Think I need to switch to tankless now. Great information thanks!
You'll have leaks in the valves in the tanless too.
@@OldToolyya not the same. You have stock in the overprice tank water heater world? The price is a joke for tanked water heaters. Another industry that lies as it changes.
Get your water tested. It may need to be treated. It may be hard, and corrosive.
@@johngordon3882 I think it's more because I never flush the tanks and check/replace the anode rod. Now just last week my Rheem 12 year warranty water heater leaked after barely over 9 years. I did flush this one but only once last year when it started making popping sounds. I think most water heaters just aren't made to last like they used to be.
A friend and I replaced a tank with a tankless system about a month ago in a 100 year old small house we own. It's fed from sulpher smelling well water and can already tell a huge difference in that it doesn't stink. The hardest part was running the gas line as the tank was running on electric, but propane was only a few feet away. While I haven't been back yet since it was installed, I look forward to the next time I'm there and getting some quality showers in.
Very informative! I just replaced a conventional 50 gallon tank water heater, which I installed 20 years ago, with another one just like it. My plumber friend called tankless water heater junk. It will take awhile to change the minds of people and plumbers for sure.
The smell your talking about most likely came form the anode rod in the tanked unit . Remove the rod and replace with a aluminum one and the smell would have disappeared
Very comprehensive presentation. Thank you.
I bought a house that had sat empty for a couple years as the owner was in a nursing home. Shortly after moving in the water heater threw an error code and i could not get anyone to service it. I bought a 5 gallon bucket, a pump, and washing machine hoses and pumped vinegar through it. It was very dirty. Codes cleared. No problems since.
Great video. I do have one more concern that you didn't cover. I have had an NSI tankless system for 5 years that runs both my baseboard heat and domestic hot water.
I've always wondered if turning the hot water off and on repeatedly in a relatively short time frame will harm the heater.
For instance, when I wash dishes, I don't run the hot water constantly for rinsing. I turn it on to rinse and off until I need to rinse again to conserve water and energy.
But every time I turn it on and then off, doesn't it have to go through its start up sequence all over again? Is this harmful to the unit? I do notice a cooldown section of water when I do this.
What are your thoughts?
When I did a tankless unit 12-15 years ago, the venting was VERY expensive as stainless steel was the only option. It looks like things have changed, but I understand where the concern came from.
Yes it has, so has the efficiency. I have a Rheem high efficiency unit that is good for roughly 6 gallons a minute and it’s vented via pvc pipe. You can hold your hand in front of the exhaust and it’s barely warm.
We had a navien for 10yrs. Combo boiler/water heater. Worked great and saved us 3/4 on our gas bill. However 6 weeks after the 10yr warranty was up things started going. Motherboard, valves, other stuff. Our HVAC guy , a licenced navien repairman, was so frustrated along with us that after 8 weeks of trying various repairs we gave up. We replaced it with an american made lochinvar. Seems fine so far. We'll see after it's 15yr warranty is up.
My 75 gal. Lochinvar, from early 80s lasted 30+ years, working even while having a small leak for the last 5 years. Not sure the new ones will last that long now.
@@chrisxiromeritis8654 Man don't crush my dreams I haven't even paid the 7k bill for my new Lochinvar tankless. 👊😎👍
I've built a few off grid homes and used tankless water heaters. With a gravity fed water system there was never enough pressure to allow the heater to even ignite and heat the water. A pressure pump is necessary to increase the pressure in order for the heater to work requiring more drain on the batteries.
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All UK water systems used gravity feed whe we lived there and tankless water heaters were the only thing available. Off-grid in North America should be possible with European design.
We had the horror of installing tankless by a brand called Eternal. It was an Eternal problem. The service company replaced the entire unit twice in the first year and then once every year until Eternal went out of business. The company was a subcontractor for Home Depot. Home Depot gave us a new Rheem 50 gallon tank for $120. We were afraid to go tankless again.
I've heard of them. They had lots of issues with parts becoming "obsolete" as well if memory serves. Something would break on the unit, the repair guy would come out and he'd say "Yea, it's this thing, they don't make it anymore, can't fix it", and the homeowner was out $1K (or more) for a new unit. Even when some of these were under warranty the run-around was horrid. It's one of the horror stories that have kept us away from tankless, but I'm really leaning towards it, especially when natural gas costs are SKYROCKETING every winter (2022/2023 winter our natural gas costs more than tripled for 4 solid months). They are still near 1.5x what they were in 2021. Thankfully we have a High Efficiency water heater, but heating 50gal of water takes a bit of time for sure!
If I go tankless, i want it to last a minimum of 15 years (that's what every tanked water heater I've owned has lasted, and I know people that are getting 20 out of them). Since I have power and gas to my existing unit, installation of a tankless should just require a mounting substrate put in, which honestly? That's 15 to 20 minutes extra work since all the venting already exists from my existing HE unit.
Jesus is the only way to healing, restoration and salvation to all souls. Please turn to him and he will change your life, depression into delight, soul heading from hell to heaven all because of what he did on the cross
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You are on the wrong channel. @@HaroutBlack
@kellymurphy-stevens9230 I think because everytime their tankless broke they were screaming Jesus.
@@HaroutBlackWTF does this have to do with water heating??!!
re: Water quality: I have a hard water problem, and due to original construction constraints, I haven't been able to treat the water properly (still working on a solution). As a result, I've been flushing the water heater (Rinnai tankless, recirculating, condensing) with vinegar about every two to three months to mitigate the impact. The sentiment problem will impact any water heater, but since tankless heaters have no water tanks to trap sentiment, it's immediately flushed into the plumbing system, fouling fixtures, check valves, and anything else in the system. The solution I came up with is a spin down strainer at the EXIT of the water heater, which traps most sentiment, and can be flushed with the flip of a valve.. I believe installing these should be standard for tankless water heaters, i.e. it just makes sense, regardless of the water quality.
Cool article - Thx !
-- Nice to see the mths put aside.
Got rid of my high efficiency, gas, power vent , 40 gal water heater a year ago and replaced it with a 13 kw tankless and did it ALL myself. It is electric so I never worry about will it light off or not. I am able to run two showers simultaneously or a shower and sink. I am in the process of installing a descaling apparatus(which I should have done when I installed it) to keep it running at top efficiency. And the cost to purchase: $290 for the unit, $260 for wiring and hardware, $140 for descaling hookup. A new gas power vent 40 gal water heater: $1350 ! This was a no brainer. At a cost of only $290, if it ever acts up, I will just replace it and save it for parts. And, I love it! All the myths cited herein I have found to be just that...myths.
Great video! A few things- older on demand heaters had metal vents that were crazy expensive- that is where that myth comes from. Technology has improved since then. Circulation pumps may save some water, but are not cheap or energy efficient at all. If it comes with the pump then that is great. But for it to work you need water lines to go from the tank to the tap and back to the tank to create a loop. And the lines need to be insulated. And the pump runs constantly even when no one is at home. That all costs money. I work for a builder and we have installed these systems in million dollar houses and usually they turn them off because of the crazy power bill.
No to everything that you said. Circulation pumps are a couple of hundred bucks and you need no extra lines. Technology has improved and the need for return lines is a thing of the past. My house is a little tech heavy and we use Amazon's Alexa Dots to do all kinds of things. You'll need the least expensive Dot that they make ($20) and a Tapo wireless switch. Get a 120 volt recirculation pump, install it, plug the Tapo into the closest receptical, and plug the pump into the switch. About 20 minutes before you want to use whatever hot water that is too far from the water heater, you tell Alexa to run the pump for 20 minutes. The pump runs for 20 minutes and then shuts off. You jump in the shower and the hot water is right there waiting for you. There will be some setup of all of your new devices but once it's done, you don't need to touch them again. I use the Dot/Tapo combination to turn lights on and off (and dim them if you have dimmable bulbs), turn on a small electric heater in my garage, run the pump, turn my garage exhaust fan on and off) and the Dot by itself to control our TVs.
@@RMartin631 How do you do it without a return line? Dump the water down the drain? Planning ahead for 20 minute wouldn't work for me.
@@kevinjackson4464, they use a special manifold that passes the water from the hot pipe to the cold pipe. The water just goes in a loop through the house pipes. I'm not sure what your need for hot water is that you can't wait 20 minutes but if that's the case, you could install a smaller electric tankless heater at the point of need. Our issue is the tank is at one end of our house and one of our bathrooms is at the other end of the house. The kitchen is in between. Since installing the recirulation pump we haven't noticed any increase in electric usage but our water usage has gone down. We use a Watts Premier Instant Hot Water Recirculating Pump System with Built-In Timer, but we don't use the timer.
@@RMartin631 Makes sense, thank you. I wonder why nobody thought of that long ago. Does it warm up the cold water?
@@kevinjackson4464, not enough to where we notice it. We're in the middle of winter and the cold water coming out of the taps is 55°. We're going to install a propane powered tankless when and if our current electric powered CWH goes bad. We're going to buy the tankless now and just set it aside until we need it. We have a garage apartment and that has a 40 gallon electric powered CWH and we already have a electric powered tankless ready to go for that one. We were doing some drywall work in the kitchen and ran the correct size wires for that tankless then.
I went tankless and wondered why I waited so long and why traditional tanks are still even made anymore. Flushing once a year is not difficult. Now if you are not mechanically incline or lazy then it is coming to cost you money. My brother bought a new construction home 15 years ago and tankless was the only option. His tankless is still going strong with just flushing it with vinegar every year. His neighbor didn’t maintain her’s and it died in 3 years. The key to owning tankless is yearly flush and routine maintenance.
Great job. I'd like to hear about maintaining and recommend cleaning cleaning
Under normal conditions it sounds great. Should you lose power for a day or more (storm, accident, etc.), a standard tank water heater has the advantage of holding hot water for several days before it cools off, using city water pressure to maintain the flow as needed. Unless you have a generator or UPS tied into your tankless system, this could be a problem albeit a somewhat remote one.
I've got the condensing style. I would never go back to a tank. But you must understand, there are trade offs. I did indeed have to upgrade my supply. I had an entire crew spend an entire day tearing up my yard, pulling in a new line, replacing my main regulator, and placing independent regulators on each of my appliances. The dual wall venting was expensive to me. Operationally, it works on a pressure differential. if the differential between the hot water request is not substantially greeter than the cold water request, No hot water will be produced. sometimes, I can be mid shower when demand for cold water is requested elsewhere in the house causing the differential to drop below demand requirements shutting down the heat exchanger and leaving me in a cold shower. Having to turn off the water and then turn the hot on full while i stand there naked and shivering waiting on the hot water to make it back through the pipes. Its a learning curve. I do like it better. But its NOT all unicorns and rainbows.It cost me a whole lot of money to get it all set up right after i hung it on my wall. And it is quite 'clunky' compared to the ol' reliable. But it is efficient and it never runs out. Oh yeah, it doesn't work if the power is out. so also be sure to install a UPS. That's another hondo. This is NOT one of Jack's "magic beans."
Yes, there are trade offs, sounds like you have some general plumbing issues that are making it harder on you (which I realize may not be worth tackling until you have to, but also aren’t the tankless’s fault). A small generator will easily cover the electrical demand of a tankless, which you probably want anyway for the many other things in your home there require electricity. But yes it’s a factor.
I’ve been in business doing HVAC, electrical and plumbing for 30 years. I have installed hundreds of tankless water heaters. I still would rather have a 50 gallon gas water heater in my home. They are more dependable, work when the power is off, cheaper to buy and install and we never run out of hot water.
All that expense to set up. Will you even be saving money?
I appreciate the honest review. I feel the review on this channel is a bit bias / kind of a conflict of interest considering it's sponsored by the product featured in the video.
The biggest problem with tankless water heaters is that you require an entirely new breaker in most cases in order to handle the amperage needed for a large enough unit to heat a large enough volume of water to really get the most out of it.
For many applications that means the tankless water heater just is impractical at least for the electrical variant. So the only other option is gas and if you live in a place where gas is expensive that makes the tankless water heater not practical at all.
And by that I mean in order to get a new breaker in many cases you have to get an entire new breaker panel which means rewiring your main breaker panel with a whole new panel and all-new Breakers and that can be very expensive.
Excellently presented! Thanks for sharing and the best of luck!
My first experience with tankless was back in 1989 in Spain. It ran off butane tanks and worked amazingly.
We've been using a tankless now for 5 years or so and this is my observation since switching.
1) we have a gas tankless. And I suspect a similar issue is involved with electric ones. But we had to get our gas meter replaced with a higher pressure/volume unit. And we had to have new gas regulators installed on all the existing gas appliances (stove and furnace) to compensate. Because we're dealing with a monopoly, it took weeks for them to come out and swap out our gas meter. It didn't cost us anything, but it was a pain anyway. For electric, I suspect we would have had to have a new circuit installed in our fuse panel and power lines run to the unit.
2) Cold water sandwiches. No, not the kind you eat. We have a condensing unit and periodically while taking a shower, the water will suddenly get "colder" for about 15 seconds, then it returns to the original temperature. Granted, it's not *COLD*, but it's cold enough to notice and you need to be aware of this so you don't compensate by making the water hotter, because when the hot water returns, it will be too hot!
3) It does take longer for the water at the faucet to feel hot. Not a lot, but it is noticeable. I've toyed around with a recirculating pump, but cost wise, it isn't worth it so we put up with it.
4) maintenance. Our tank heater we never bothered with maintaining it. And when it was taken out of the basement, it showed! gunk came pouring out and into the back yard! Yuck. So, one of the things I heard with tankless is that if you don't descale it yearly, it will become junk in less than 5 years. So I purchased a sump-pump some hoses and a bottle of chemicals and a bucket. And every year, I run the chemicals through the heat exchanger to keep the scale at bay. This $150 investment I hope will pay off in the long run. And it's just 20 minutes to do. Then when it's done, I write on the side of the tankless heater, the date of the descaling to keep track!
The problem is with clients wanting to switch over to electric tankless from electric tank water heaters. But in all cases so far, all the fuse panels would have had to be replaced. They just didn't have the space for the 2 or 3 extra 40 amp fuses, or they didn't have enough overall amperage and had to move up to a 200 or 300 amp box. Plus, lines have to be run, which gets expensive quick. I noticed he didn't mention that.
Thank you for the video. It clarifies a few points very nicely, especially regarding water quality.
One thing I'd like to see is information on the latest generation of electric tankless water heaters. From the little I've read, they've evolved immensely in recent years, especially those made by Stiebel Eltron. With an emphasis on reducing my carbon footprint and evade the rapidly rising cost of gas, I'd prefer an electric tankless water heater.
Electric tankless requires expensive wiring and space in your electric panel. Gas one most probably work as it is (assuming you have gas)
*What is the source of the electricity coming into your house? Most likely, you will NOT like the answer if you are a loyal follower of the climate change grift.*
I had a Rinnai water heater mounted on the outside of my house. It was rated at 8 gallons per minute. I never ran out of hot water. After 17-18 years, I had to replace it with a similar Rinnai model and again, it just keeps pumping out hot water. No regrets here.
Great video! We live in a brand new neighborhood and about half the houses came with tankless. I've been super happy with it, never ran out of hot water. The only issue I've had is during power outages. Which I just run the unit off my vehicle with a power inverter.
As I watched the rest of the houses being complete I noticed squatty water heater tanks being installed with an EXTERNAL heat exchanger (like a heat pump...?). I was told by the contractors that the "code here in WA state changed...". How is this more efficient????
I would love to see you elaborate/be-specific on what kind of water treatment. Are we talking water softening, or micro filtration?
I had my plumber install one about 12 years ago and it was the biggest electric savings I’ve ever been able to achieve. It never ran out of hot water.
What electricity did your tank water heater use? The power vent fan? Your tankless water heater uses electricity too.
Tankless heaters are far more efficient that's why it costs less .
They work good on gas. We also had electric ones in Germany where I was working as electrician. The needed 3 phase, 380 V and used 18 KW. Still, it was slow to fill your tub.
I've had the Rinnai in my house for more than 15 yrs. Our community has hard(ish) water (treated lake water), I've had the unit flushed twice, the solution was almost as clean as when I started. Never an issue with not enough hot water, able to fill my 4 person hot tube with hot water.