DEBUNKING Tankless water heater LIES!
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 28 апр 2024
- Big thanks to Rinnai!
www.rinnai.us/tankless-101
Subscribe and follow my Podcast on Apple or Spotify!
Apple: apple.co/32AOwgU
Spotify: spoti.fi/3FXNg4X
Sign up for our twice-weekly newsletter:
buildshownetwork.com/newsletter
To sponsor a video or advertise with us visit:
www.buildproductions.com
Want to learn more about building? buildshownetwork.com/
Build Show Network on Instagram: / thebuildshow
Huge thanks to our Show sponsors Builders FirstSource, Polywall, Huber, Prosoco, Rockwool & Viewrail for helping to make these videos possible! These are all trusted companies that Matt has worked with for years and trusts their products in the homes he builds. We would highly encourage you to check out their websites for more info.
www.bldr.com/
www.Poly-Wall.com
www.Huberwood.com
www.Viewrail.com
www.Rockwool.com
Just sold a 96 YO old house with the top of the line Rinaii flawlessly operating for near 17 years. New house (3 YO) had a 80 gallon tank-type that was demoed and moved to the curb for the "recovery geniuses". Now have the same Rinaii model for the last 7 months providing likewise flawless operations. There will NEVER, EVER be a tank-type in my life again.....not ever!
How expensive was the tank?
@@bsignora6099 ....the tank alone is about $900. But, you also need the exhaust/combustion air ductwork for it to operate. My first unit had a through the roof exhaust/combustion air duct extending 3' above the roof while my newest is through the exterior wall. I prefer the latter as the ductwork length is considerably shorter by comparison. Also, the newest model is considerably quieter than the first....meaning the exhaust/combustion air fan noise.
@@bsignora6099 .....I might add that there is no such animal as a "tank". Unlike a tank-type which holds heated water and repeats it and repeats heating it again and again to the set temperature. The tankless has a copper exchanger that holds maybe 1 quart of water when not in use, but engages a blast furnace type flame to heat the water only as you need it for as long as you need it for a rapid rise in temperature. They are entirely and totally two different animals. One stores hot water and the other makes hot water only when you call for it.
You have to get away from the "mind-set" that a tankless is an INSTANT HOT WATER source. It is NOT unless the unit is mounted in your shower. I don't think you would want that. It was lightly covered in the video, but the wait time for hot water is very dependent on the lenght of water piping from the unit to your tub or shower. But, that is the same issue if you have a tank-type. You can install a recirculating system within your hot water piping system (very expensive by itself) to get the benefit of instant hot water supply. So, don't be misled by the "instant hot water" claims without a supplemental recirculation piping to each of your hot water points. Let me give you one other point to consider. You go on vacation for 3 days or 2 weeks, your tank-type will continue heating water to the set temperature regardless of use. Big loss of effectiveness and efficiency. On the other hand, if you leave the house for the same period of time, the tankless NEVER runs. If there is no demand....there is no hot water produced! Period!
The CONTINUOUS hot water system I used recently did not work on low flow, it had to be turned on to high flow rate.
I turn my storage tank off when I holiday, ezi pezi
They do work, millions of Japanese use them every day. But if gas will be restricted in the future you will not get your lifetime value.
True ? ?
It seems lots of people forget that the further your faucet is from the tank the longer it takes to heat the pipes between. When I renovated I insisted the design concentrate the plumbing as much as possible as close as possible to the heater location. My kitchen sink is the closest with hot water in 3-5 seconds, guest bath is furthest, takes 8-10 seconds.
Good information Matt but it would have been helpful to explain what condensing and non condensing units are.
Just to keep things real world honest... Power requirements. If we're talking about Natural Gas for fuel: with a tank and power outage, you still get hot water. With tankless and power outage, you'll need to power it somehow (not for heating element if gas but for the ignition).
That being said, get a battery backup dedicated for $200 with 900w output (the tankless uses about 80watts to spark) and it'll be just right as rain.
Correct. Also hard water issue cause the sensor in the tankless to fail. The tank doesn’t. Tankless all around is better till you have issue. Once you have issues you’re waiting days, unlike tank you just run to HD and get what you need right away! 🤷🏼♂️
On my tank I had a powered exhaust fan and power going to the valve. A power outage would not allow either of those to work
@@briankerley unfortunate that you needed a booster to vent and they installed a fail safe. Lots of tanks are vented on short runs and don't rely on any electricity.
I had power outages for DAYS.
Any plumbers here like clearing blocked drains? Or anyone like watching it?
When we moved into our house in Westchester, CA 25 years ago, the first thing I did was replace the 30 gal. gas water heater in the garage with a tankless NG heater. It's still operating perfectly today! it only ran the washing machine and sat idle for the majority of the time. Our gas bill dropped by 30%. I never did replace the house heater though, moving it outside (at the time direct vent didn't exist) was cost prohibitive.
When I lived in Japan in 1969, all the houses I visited had tankless water heaters, even the 200 year old house. It didn't have a front door, just a blanket as a flap, but it did have a tankless water heater.
Cool super smart people in us the type of products are not popular
South Korea, same, tankless. Not only that, the floor heat is run off a tankless water. Called (온돌), pronounced "own dole" named after their ancient tech using rocks under the nice homes (hot rock), a fireplace outside the house, running the hear under the house heating up the rocks below then leaving a chimney out the other side. This is one reason sitting and sleeping on the floor is popular in this area of the world. I was in Korea for a year, had an apartment with this radiant floor heating and it's just perfect. PERFECT, I say!
Thank you for this. I have a brother that was a plumber and has been gathering quotes for years. I have lived outside of the US for 20+ years. I installed one myself on a bathroom in the Philippines 15 years ago. When back in the US I still could not get one installed. Meanwhile, during this time I've had one that supplies a house my mom has replaced two large tanks. I currently live in HK and that is all anyone has. We have one about the size of a carry-on suitcase. I serve two full baths, a kitchen, and a washer at the same time. Repairs in 15 years, none. Your video will help my argument! Definitely going to send this on to my mom.
I installed a Bosch tankless unit when I renovated my house in 2006. What a nightmare that was! Never worked right. Would constantly go into limp mode, or not fire up at all.
Bosch sent me a new ecu, didn't help. They told me I had to upgrade my gas line($600), didn't help. Then the water line from my well($1,100), didn't help.
I had nearly $4,000 into this tankless water heater before I tore it out and threw it in the trash.
Replaced with a regular heater, no trouble since.
Never again!
Things have changed a lot in the last 16 years. In the early days they had lots of issues. I got my first in 2015 and was impressed with reliability and performance. Moved across the country and promptly had one added to the home.
That it wouldn't start or start in degraded mode suggests one thing, once you ruled out gas flow issues, air flow.
Fresh air into the burner unit, exhaust out, any restriction would give you exactly what you experienced. If it was a non-condensing unit, the exhaust should still be quite hot at the vent outlet outside. If it isn't, you have a major air flow problem that needs to be resolved.
Condensing units are a lot more efficient, so the exhaust will be cooler, as the condensing unit takes the wasted heat and recycles it back into heating water, discharging a small amount of water to be drained off or evaporated. There, you'd probably want instrumentation to measure air/exhaust flow rates.
@@spvillano I used the 4" stainless steel exhaust kit($400) from Bosch. Intake was also a 4" pipe maybe 5 feet long. No issues there. In the end, Bosch blamed it on my well pump. The pulseing of the pump. I wasn't willing to spend another $1,500 to upgrade that to find out it's not that either. I just gave up and cut my losses.
@@tlr-nut7275 that's even odder, as the pressure tank should remove any pulsations from a pump. A properly sized pressure tank both relieves cycling burden and pressure pulses.
That nobody managed to diagnose it properly, downright bizarre. Sounds like a case of "lemme guess this, lemme guess that", hoping to find a resolution without actually measuring anything whatsoever!
iv'e been a plumbing contractor 45 years, built my house installed a 50 gal elec . i have a constant pile of tankless out back of the shop all brands waiting to be scrapped
I installed my own Rinnai tankless 6 years ago. I descale it once a year and I love it. Only downside was once power went out and lost hot water fast. I bought a UPS backup unit for about $100 and will keep it powered up for 30 min if power goes out now. Love my unit
quick the power went out, i need to shower. Seems useful
@@chadschafer1723 Well... you could be taking a shower when the power goes out. lol
@@TheFlyingZulu first thing I'm worried about is finishing my shower when the powers out.
@@chadschafer1723 And why not be able to still take/finish a warm shower if you can. Life goes on through power outages.
@@lordgarth1 listen if that's what makes your day, God bless.
Going on year 4 with my Rinnai tankless, mostly thanks to you, and loving it!!
Four years? Must be some sort of longevity record.
When we built our house in 1994 we installed tankless water heaters, that worked well for about 25 years. Eventually they needed repairs and it wasn't possible to get parts for them any more. We considered new tankless heaters first, but they were not only expensive, they required extensive routine maintenance--very finicky. I think they also required an electrical outlet, as do many new tank water heaters. We went with good modern tank water heaters, and have been well pleased. They have miniscule pilot lights and good insulation. No need for an electrical outlet; all the electrical power necessary comes from the heat of the pilot light.
no idea what people in america are getting shilled, we have had so many tankless water heaters here in the UK never once have we needed them descaling, even in hard water areas
@@randomcow505 I've got a friend who loves his tankless. Same guy who was able to say something nice about a neglected, overflowing and festering portable chemical toilet on a construction site.
@@randomcow505 Ah yes, of course scale doesn't exist in the UK.
@@randomcow505I would really like to know the difference in your tankless water heaters and the ones in the USA. I tend to very much believe you. There is so much b.s. sales here telling people they need or have to have various services that are total b.s. and rip offs for easy money.
15 year old tank water heater started to leak so it had to go. I installed a rinnai v65i about a year ago myself. The thing works amazing. I love it. The only things that surprised me was on the install. I needed a new vent because the tank system was tied in with the furnace. The plumber said it was against code to use the same vent since the water heater has an exhaust blower and there was a risk of back feed into the furnace. I went with the ubbink rolux vent system which worked great, but the cost for 10 feet of vent and termination kit was $500, just about as much as the water heater itself($680). If i would have realized in the beginning that i would have needed a special vent i would have selected a different unit that only needs pvc. Also as far as i was aware the gas line needed to be 3/4 so that had to be upgraded as well, not a big expense but still something worth noting.
I’ve been working on tankless for 20 years. And I make a good living coming in behind installers.
1. You’re wrong on the longevity. Getting 20 plus years on a tankless is only possible if spare parts are still being made and stocked. And if the unit is properly maintained. A tank can get 20 plus years as well if pressure, anode rod and water quality is checked.
2. Installing a tankless takes far more labor intensive than a tank unless of course you skip some serious issues, such as 110 outlet and gas line up sizing. Core drilling through a concrete wall is something not for the average guy.
3. Stainless steel is causing issues with copper pipes on the down range side. Also another point of concern is reverse osmosis and tankless. “What say you?”
4. Your comment on gas line is incorrect. The newer units will not shut down on low pressure. It will simply give you want it can. BTUs are BTUs and the gas meter will only allow what it’s designed for.
5. Your comment on running 3 showers at the same time is misleading at best. Delta T or temp rise dictates the GPM of a unit.
By all means keep these videos coming as I make a living coming in after guys who follow your advice.
lol thanks for the input.. here in thailand we use one small tankless in the shower (75 to 150 dollars) ive seen many old ones still working fine... the rest of the house sa bai sa bai no have! lol
oh and there electric
@@marcinasia1731 precisely. the one component I forgot to mention that affects the life of tankless and the need for descale is temperature. My Asian family and friends in the Pacific don’t use hot hot water on a regular basis. If the temperature is kept below 110 on a consistent basis the tankless will last a long time, without descale. Anything 120 and above will require water treatment and or regular maintenance.
@@marcinasia1731 that tells me by itself that you don’t waste water. Electric types (here in the states) don’t have the same recovery as a gas tankless. Americans want 120 plus temperature while using multiple shower heads. A waste of water and energy.
Yes, this guy is very misleading
Matt, as a plumber in the northeast, our company exclusively installs Navien tankless water heaters, would love for you to review one of these. They have a 1 liter “buffer tank” therefore, don’t have to wait as long for hot water.
When the video sponsored by one brand I doubt he will do another brand.
How does that work and where did you locate it.
@@Dwb913 it’s part of the unit, it’s built inside, when going through the start up wizard, it asks if you want to use internal recirculation, external, or no recirc. When using internal recirc, it will automatically come on about every 30 minutes for a few seconds to keep the water in the “buffer” tank hot, therefore not having to wait as long for hot water or have a minimal usage to trigger the unit to come on.
I'm looking into the Navien NPE-A2 & Noritz EZ-SV. Any insight between the two you can share?
@@eaglerider94 no experience with Noritz, it is a popular brand though. We had a few issues with the A2 as far as replacing the internal check valve on 3 so far.
Hi Matt. I've had my Rinnai tankless heater for about 15 years and I love it. While I agree that many of the arguments against tankless are either over-generalized or exaggerated, I find some of your responses to those arguments suffer from the same problems. Combatting gross generalizations with gross generalizations isn't very helpful. I get that Rinnai is a sponsor, but content like this is going to undermine your credibility.
He's been shilling sponsored products for years dude...
I don't watch that many of his videos, and I'm guessing a lot of homeowners interested in tankless may watch this video and not know his other content. I just wanted to warn those viewers to take this video with a grain of salt. There are no outright lies in it, but many of the things he says as if they are general facts about tankless do not apply to all installations. If I'm being generous, much of this video is true if you're looking at typical construction for the Southern US and a house with gas or propane service. I'm guessing that's most of the homes Matt works on regularly, If you look at a typical electric-only home in the rural NorthEast, where I live, this video is far less applicable.
Love our Rinnai tankless unit, family of 5 with more that stay over all the time it has became invaluable.
I add a WestingHouse tankless water heating 5 years ago. The installation was labor intensive because of the layout of my home but only spend about $200 in parts to do so. The water heater was $1200 which was still twice the cost of replacing the existing water heater but it did include a recalculation pump. Other than some occasional unexplained error codes that where not documented which was not surprising consider the poor owners manual, it worked very well and was very cost efficient. After less than 2 years it developed a leak which after having a plumber repair it, it turned out to be a simple fix that takes about 10 minutes once you know where to look. Replacing a washer of which the manufacturer provided 10 of, solved the yearly problem of the leakage. However, about 2 years ago it developed a new problem where it would not ignite the gas. After some work I found a wire had come lose so I had it back in service again. Three days later it started leaking again but this time it was not the washer, it was the tank itself. The leak was very small which did not shut down the unit and I could not find the exact location. The problem was solved with 24 hours when the leak progressed to numerous location at the top of the tank.
While this tankless water heater was great while it worked the short life time I experienced was not uncommon as I found out while searching for a better replacement model. Unfortunately even Renie's water heater have people mentioning the same problem of short lifetime due to leaks. And though some tankless water heaters can be found for a reasonable price most with any kind of re circulation capability get expensive fast. Meanwhile the 10 year old water heater which seemed to be leaking was just a simple matter of tightening the drain valve is now back in use. My gas bill has gone up a noticeable amount but not enough that 5 years of the higher bill would justify the cost of a tankless.
I love tankless water heaters when they work but the industry really needs to do better on reliability and cost. And good luck getting anyone to fix the tank at a reasonable cost. Additionally even if the re-circulation pump is not included, the water heater should have the logic build in to drive an external pump. Most external pumps don't have an intelligence built in so they have to be manually setup. The one I had learned the best times to run the re-circulation pump so you seldom had to deal with the cold water problem.
Spot on. And tankless may be popular in Japan, but that's also due to limited space requirements. Yes, I too prefer the efficiency of tankless, but reliability is also a prime consideration, and just a peek inside the average tankless water heater reveals *_much_* more complexity, with more opportunities for leaks... which are often disastrous no matter when they occur.
$1400 labor under warrenty to fix mine..parts free.. Feelin raped..
@@peter-pg5yc Geesh, your labor cost would be enough to have bought 2-3 traditional water heaters and installed by yourself.
I've been looking into this for a while now, so many opinions and experience , I'm just one person living in the house, reliability and costs are the most important to me , what makes me worried is, if thankless fails, it can be really costly, i can buy and install tank myself, but i can't do same with tank-less... and labour cost is very expensive...
I’ve had a Rinnai tankless installed 13 years ago and It has worked flawlessly. The only thing to get used to is that you do need to let the hot run for a few seconds before the hot water comes out. You are essentially purging the cold water that is in the line. With a tank, convection keeps the water in the pipes warm all the time, which means you are wasting money heating your wall cavities with your plumbing. A minor difference that I’m happy to live with.
Convection from a tank does not keep the water in your pipes warm all the time. Matt even explained this in the video, unless you have a recirculating pump, everyone has to wait for the cold water to be flushed from the line before the hot water arrives, regardless of tank or tankless.
The disadvantage of tankless is, as @J says, the little bit of additional time it takes to heat the water pipes inside the tankless heater. Because of that, even if you had a tankless unit directly behind your shower, there will still be a short delay before you get hot water.
An "instant hot" water dispenser works by putting a small tank next to the faucet. The water in that small tank is always hot and can be delivered (almost) instantly.
Install a heat trap to prevent convection losses from your tank heater.
You have to pay for the convenience of convection losses.
@@hempelcx Go feel the Temperature about five feet from your tank water heater hot outlet, or the last metal part if it switches to non-metallic before then. If you have tankless, at 6in from the heater it is room temperature about 30 seconds after you stop using hot water.
Great you bring up Japan. I'm in the Army and the military installation housing me and the family lived in all had tankless water heaters. We always had hot water and the control panel was in the kitchen for easy adjustment.
I'm an American, now living in France. I just remodeled my old house (1903) which involved creating 2 entirely new bathrooms. I gave each its own tankless water heater, placed right in the bathroom. It keeps the piping runs very short, which reduces the delay when you turn on the tap.
I'm super happy with the results.
As a residential designer still doing work in the USA I recommend the same approach to my clients. One of the advantages is that you only have to run a single cold water line to each bathroom. Split the line at the bathroom to create hot & cold. Then branch within the bathroom. This means fewer long pipelines running through the house and less piping overall.
Side note - although I personally prefer gas units, the electric ones available here in Europe work great and don't require venting.
This was one of the problems adapting tankless to this country. They had to be upsized to accommodate a central system.
@@anthonyspadafora1384 true, but with central, every tap, from powder room to bathroom all have hot water from a single unit.
In a new build, there might be some applications where running a circulator system would work, not so much in retrofit builds though, save if such a system was already in place.
@@spvillano What I meant was they have been using tankless in Europe for many years but the units were smaller and usually close to the bathroom they served. When they brought them to this country they werent large enough to serve 3 bathrooms or fill a whirlpool but they have overcome these problems over the last twenty years. I sell quite a few and always try to upsell my customers if I can. Many older homes still have chimneys and when it comes down to dollars a chimney vented gas water heater is still the outright cheapest in the moment. Many of the homes built after 2000 had no chimney and also a fair amount of 2 man tubs were sold. The tankless is the only thing that can economically fill these tubs as the standby loss from 80 or 120 gallon water heaters is crazy.
A few observations from someone who has installed many of these...
Condensing units cost more, but the cost savings on the venting oftentimes makes up for it. If you have a long run, it ends up being cheaper. Plus, I find drilling a couple of 2-inch holes is easier and more practical than drilling a single 5-inch hole. Also, drawing intake air from inside of the structure is not recommended. For one, in a tightly sealed house it poses a safety issue, as these draw a lot of air, and the air cannot be replenished fast enough. For another, you are drawing heated/air-conditioned air from inside of the structure and blowing it outside, which wastes a lot of energy.
Tankless electric units do not require venting at all, and are smaller than the gas units. I highly recommend Steibel Eltron if you go that route.
Tankless electric point of use units are great for locations such as kitchens, where hot water gets used often, especially if it's far away from the main unit. I have a whole house unit but also have a p.o.u. unit under the kitchen sink which provides hot water at the tap in about 3 seconds.
If you have well water, there is no tank for the water to sit in and grow bacteria which is oftentimes what gives your hot water that rotten egg smell. (It can also be caused from having a magnesium anode in your tank). If you haven't shocked your well lately, you might still get a little odor, but it won't be that overwhelming, plug your nose, kind of smell.
I set the unit at my preferred shower temp. then just turn the faucet all the way to hot. Most good units have remote controls available (some even have wifi now) which makes it easy.
I honestly can't see a situation where I would ever install a tank in a house again.
Yeah I pefer tankless, you also save more water
Is your point of use water heater in the kitchen a stand alone unit or does hot water from your tankless flow through it?
Ya, but didn't you do a video a while back comparing the cost to buy and run different water heaters, and said best bang for buck was a heat-pump tank? We have Rinnai's in many of our rental properties in central Canada for a couple years now, and even with seasonal flushing and maintenance are starting to be problematic.The internal parts are needing to be changed often, so much lately, we have been switching back to standard tank water heaters.
sounds like it might really depend on local water quality. either way, tankless seem like more potential headaches compared to other options
Other than periodically descaling, what maintenance have you had to do? I would have expected tankless seem to have fewer maintenance issues. I descale every few years (water softener) and have had few problems, while with the tank I had issues regularly
The answer to that question starts at 7:14
For rentals, I'm going to agree before watching the video. My experience is to revert back if possible. Renters don't care or need endless hot water. They won't pay more rent and if landlord is responsible for utilities...ouch. Any plumber and many handyman can repair/replace the tanks at a moments notice. New units and parts are available 24/7. Renters aren't willing to wait for days/weeks with no hot water for warranty work or ordered parts. As a eco/solar(battery) ethusiest, heat pump is the only way to go. As contractor that dreams, both, tankless and heat pump. Heheh
Most tankless units have dozens or more error codes, many sensors and electronic parts which are hard to get replacements for in emergencies, not to mention costly after most 2 year warranties expire. We've had internal condisate problems, leaking exchangers in the combos, venting problems on really cold days, power exhaust vent issues or failures. Saying these things will last 2 decades, makes me laugh. I don't see the benifit in dumping money non-stop into maintaining equipment for the sake of endless hot water. As for efficiency, nobody looks at the btu's, the amount of gas required to heat a volume of water. The cost savings may be pennies over years. We required gas line upgrades to almost all properties where these units were installed which was very costly. They don't make sense to me or our development company, we stick with the basics now. (K.I.S.S)
I've had my Renee tankless waterheater for almost 20 years. Every point made on this video is spot on. It's small size allowed us to install it in a laundry room near both bathrooms and kitchen so it takes far less time to get the hot water than when it was in the basement.
I'm glad to hear your explanation of the first 'lie' about the inlet temperature. I was looking at a tank-less some years back when my water heater (WH) needed to be replaced. Looking at the specs on a tank-less at that time the temperature rise wasn't that great in the models I was looking at. I live in the St. Louis Metro area and our water comes from the Missouri river. I have measured the temperature of the water and it has gotten as low as 42 degrees (measured at tap) in the winter and as high as 80 in the summer. You almost don't need any hot water to take a shower in the summer :-) I was also considering two smaller units at that time. I have a ranch house and the kitchen and laundry room are at one end and the bathroom at the other. When replacing my WH back then I went with a Bradford-White direct vent (PVC). My furnace also uses a PVC exhaust so I was able to gain the space taken up by the flue.
Matt you should address electric tankless units as well, not everyone has natural gas line, the electric units require a ton of startup electricity and significant electrical upgrades are needed
Correct. That's the reason I recommend getting a heat pump water heater to replace your electric tank.
@@shawnd567 That is interesting where I am in TX we only have Elec. I lived in Australia and built my first house back in 1986 and we had tankless then and love it. My issue with Elec as was stated above the cost is not practical. So you are suggesting a heat pump water heater I have heard of them on This Old House and Matt has suggested them before as well. Thanks
Reason why we ran gas to the home, got a tankless and retired the electric water heater.
Rinnai makes propane versions of its heaters as well. That's what we have.
@@richardgarrow9260 not all of TX has electric only, although that is spotty and equally true in rural areas nationwide.
Still, propane is an option. Of course, masturbating with a cheese grater's an option as well. It all comes down to what you want to pay equipping the home with and a cost/benefit analysis. For most, running gas lines wouldn't be worth the expense, save with new construction.
I've had a Rinnai condensing tankless for nearly three years. Yes flush it annually with vinegar. There are two issues:
1) Time to hot water can be a full minute or more for a distant tap. The partial workaround I've done is to install a one-gallon electric tank right under my kitchen sink, with input to it from the tankless hot. (I don't mind the minute wait for the shower hot.)
2) Minimal flow rate required: if you turn the hot on just a trickle, the tankless might never fire up.
I've wondered about that type of thing myself. Why not use a lower wattage main unit and a smaller unit down the line, closer to the point of use. How does it work out for you?
There is a switch inside the unit that will fix your “trickle” issue. I had a similar issue and Rinnai tech support was fantastic. If you add a recirc pump to your unit it will fix all of the waiting and it’s very cheap to run. That’s not specific to your heater, it has to do with the length of run between the unit and fixture which needs to be cleared (and pipes warmed) in the process.
I mean is waiting a minute for hot water that big of an inconvenience? It takes about a minute or so for my tank hot water to reach the faucet.
@@DanielCaspi Adding a recirculation pump wastes a bit of energy because you are then using gas/electricity to keep the water in the pipes warm all the time. How much energy will be wasted depends on how long the pipes are, how well they are insulated, their size and length, etc. But then again, running the water until it gets hot wastes a little water too.
@@averyalexander2303 At that point, aren't you just remaking a tanked water heater, just with a really tiny tank?
Great video! I need to change out the water heater on my house and my rental. These videos have helped me figure out what I want to go with.
Thanks for posting this. I can’t agree with you more. I have a Rinnai combi unit in my home (domestic hot water and hydronic heat) and love it. Removed an old cast iron boiler and a 40 gallon heater tank.
I also installed a Rinnai tankless water heater in my wife’s vegan food joint and got a huge benefit from space savings because the shop is small. An unexpected benefit is how whisper quiet it is. The old 50 gallon commercial tank with exhaust blower was very loud.
I had a tankless one time. Didn’t like it. Noisy and difficult to control temperature. Servicing it was expensive and didn’t help much with temperature control after service. Maybe they are better now, but I will stick with what I know works well.
Trust me their not, I repair them daily and parts are still very expensive, and if a person isnt trained proper, they may take a few visit to fix. Two weeks on the average for special parts under normal circumstances
One time? LMAO
I live in a newish subdivision in Central Texas. There were 62 homes with tankless water heaters...61 mounted on the exterior of the house and 1 mounting inside the garage. During the once-in-a thousand-years cold snap in February, 2021, all 61 tankless water heaters mounted on the outside of the houses were destroyed (burst inside). So, think twice about external mounting!
That's because the electric went out and there was no power for the freeze prevent operation.
@@don2deliver Yes - exactly
Our natural gass tankless water heater is about 22 years old. It replaced a 5 year old natural gas A O Smith traditional water heater. Older folks may remember A O Smith had lost a class action suit for defective water heaters. I didn't know until after the deadline of the replacment water heaters because of defective dip tubes. We live in a city and have city water, but we still have a water softener. Two design flaws, no drain to flush out scale, and it does have a pilot light. But it has worked for 22 years. In 2016 we bought a vacation property and the traditional water heater was only 7 years old and needed to be replaced. Well water, so we added a water softener and additional filters to help supply better quality drinking water. I'll take a tankless water heater any day over a tank.
When we were in Ireland more than a few years back, all we saw were tankless water heaters wherever we stayed and it was so nice to only wait a few seconds before getting that hot water. Great video!
The whole “Instant Hot Water” is one that really annoys me. Like you said, you can get those with built in recirculation pumps, but I see way too many people who think that just by putting in a tankless that they’re going to be able to get the instant hot water benefit of a recirc loop. And I see way too many people selling a tankless as being able to do that. They’ll say, “switch to a tankless water heater if you want hot water immediately after turning on a faucet.” That is NOT a tankless water heater feature, it’s a recirculation loop feature, available for both tank and tankless water heaters. Now I will say, having a built in recirc pump is awesome if your plumbing is set up for that!
If you install a recirculation pump on your tankless. Wouldn't that mean your tankless would continually run to keep the water hot in your uninsulated pipes?
@@Powerfade54 It depends on the heat loss in the recirc loop. Typically, once it is up to temp, the heater will cut out. If you have a massive recirc loop that looses all its heat before getting back to the tankless, then it will continue to run.
You can use both, a tank with the feed-in being an instant heat one, only need a small tank, and electric works, lots of hot quickly, and the feed into the tank is mostly hot so you avoid both the slow start of tankless, and the running out of water of the tank.
It doesn't have to be one or the other.
You can also add rooftop heating or a heatpump into the system that feeds into the tank, and can have a pretty energy efficient setup that way. And have that water feed into the tankless heater, which then feeds into the tank.
By using the ground or roof to prewarm the water before the instant heater, the amount of energy needed to raise to the desired temp goes way down. But you still have hot water when its winter, just bypass the roof coils.
And if you need instant heat, as others have mentioned. You need a circulation system.
I still have just a tank but occurred to me this should be a possibility. Small tank that serves as cache of hot water that is fed by Tankless.
Once the kids were grown, I went to a smaller 19 gallon 120 volt 1500 watt tank water heater with the 240 volt timer I had installed on the previous water heater. Except for a nice long hot shower, it's perfect. I am now looking at your idea of both not one or the other and supplementing my hot water. I'm happy to read I'm not alone with the idea of using both.
Love our tankless.
The only issue I had was @ year 6 the delivery pipe on the inside of the unit cracked. It was still under warranty but it was pouring water. Thankfully it was mounted outside the house.
Still love it!
I was literally refreshing on your past tankless vids these last few nights and going to be making my decision this week for my new build… you’re the man Matt!
If you got the amps, go electric.
ruclips.net/p/PLsqwS9Vo-z3VKl5rL1-ymHeQlUeXzec5m
I hated my tankless. Every time someone turned the tap, (Hot or Cold), the temp changed, had to run the water for a couple of min. to get hot water.
could not run the dishwasher and the washing machine at the same time.
Changed back to tank and no more problems. And I had two different brands of tankless and both were not worth a you know what.
you must gotten a shitty tankless or improper install. I got my tankless installed and never going back.
@@hoodhunter3262 or a thankless that was way to small
I bought a Rheam tankless water heater first. I timed my furthest shower it was 15 seconds to get hot water. I priced out a Rinnai, went for the $700 cheaper Rheam. While the Rheam did hold up for for the first 18 month. Once I started having issues “Exhausting” errors. Nothing is worse than mid shower bam ice cold shower. The repair was easy, but did take a few weeks to figure out. My next house I’m currently designing will have a tankless water heater again. The maintenance does take longer on a tankless than a conventional water heater. I did pay the extra money for the easy flush valves. I also have a hvac license so I can buy contractor grade descaling liquid relatively cheap.
Love that Rinnai is USA made. Agree tankless are the way to go. :)
He was promoting Rheem 4 years ago!
He will shill for whoever signs the checks 💲
We got our first tankless in Wisconsin in 1996. It was electric. The cost was much higher than a replacement tank water heater. We loved it so much that, when we expanded our place into a cabin style B&B, we put tankless in each cabin as well. We did, occasionally have problems with the first one in cold weather. But we found ways to solve the problems. The tankless allowed us to provide more space in the cabins for guests due to the water heaters taking up so little room.
Matt, I’m a remodeler of 29 years and I just found out about these on Amazon. Also your buddy Jordan just put one in his house. This is tankless and NO VENTING!!! Here’s the unit:
Stiebel Eltron Tankless Water Heater - Tempra 24 Plus - Electric, On Demand Hot Water, Eco, White, 20.2
Yes! Agreed. My tankless guy told me Stiebel Eltron is the best one out there for all electric homes. He will not install one without a pre-filter for calcium. The only reason my last tankless, which was over 20 years old with zero maintenance, failed was because the scale buildup caused an internal pipe to leak. The unit itself still worked. Replaced it with the pre-filter and the Steibel Eltron Tempra 20 Plus and zero problems since. I expect it to last longer than 20 years. I would never go back to a tank.
I have a tankless heater, I had it for 8 years, in the winter, it takes 5 minutes before the hot water reaches my faucet or shower. It doesn't last 10 years maintenance free. When it raining 🌧 and lighting. I have to cut it off. If you live in an area that has hard water. Your nightmare has just begun. The tank water 💧 heater at my free home, it's 25 years ago and he maintained it by flushing it out, every 5 years and replacing the regulator, ignitor and...ect. It is still working and he's still going to replace it with a newer version. It just my opinion, you buy what is best for you.
But but, that's not what Matt's sponsor wanted hm to say!
Ya, he really jumped on the Rinnai band-wagon! 😆
I'm a plumber who clears blocked drains for a living although I'll still install the occasional hot water system.
I ALWAYS GO RINNAI ❤️❤️❤️
I'm less loyal to a brand name than I am to quality. Currently, they're still maintaining high quality, but should that ever change, I'd not slavishly stick with a failing brand, but be loyal to those who showed loyalty to their investors and customers by keeping the quality up.
I'm going through that now with, of all simpleton things, a damned coffee pot. Warranty expired, the heater opened and replacements are not available. Think I'll stick with that brand or the previous brand that also failed after a year? Nope, I'll go back to my percolator first. And yes, they're entirely different companies, I check the brand corporate ownership.
Although, "American spaceship, Russian spaceship, all the same. All made with parts from ____!"
Having experienced many showers where the water turns cold only to wait for a minute or so for it to turn hot again destroys the ads promoting that you never run out of hot water. I'm still sold on tankless heaters because they take up less space. After many attempts to resolve the hot/cold issue I replaced my Rinnai heater with a new Rinnai RSC199ip condensing unit with a circulating pump. Running one month so far and everything is working fine.
Thanks so much for doing this. I love the videos you make with the exception of an old video you did pointing out all the flaws of tankless water heaters. I'm thrilled to see you make a new one pointing out all the positive aspects of tankless. Well done!
Something you should point out - Not all tankless water heaters are created equal. Some have a very hard time keeping the temperature constant as demand changes. Some are just super unreliable. Look into how bad the Bosch ones are. They are so bad, they had to stop selling them in New Zealand. I've installed several Paloma (Home depot's Rheem rebrand) and quite a few Rinnais.
"Look into how bad the Bosch ones are. They are so bad, they had to stop selling them in New Zealand. " Are you talking about the Bosch mechanical tankless heaters that are still made (e.g., Bosch 16P), or the electronic ones that are more similar to Rinnai (e.g., Bosch 17E)? Thanks!
First tankless I put in was Rinnai, venting was less than 4' and Rinnai venting is pricey. This house I put in a Navien because the venting was 24' and rated for schedule 40 PVC piping. Turns out Navien didn't get schedule 40 approval in Canada, I had to change to schedule 80 on the exhaust at $18/ft so Rinnai would have still been an option. The Navien has been in now 9 years, I flush/service it every year (very simple) and it has paid for itself. For 2 people, it uses as much gas per month that a pilot flame would use in a tank system. Set the temp to a hot bath no point mixing in cold. Never going back to a tank if I have a choice...
Did it lower your gas bill?
I regret switching to tankless. My experience is different from yours. First, it was expensive. A little over three times replacing the tank. The unit I installed was rated to supply more than two shows at a time. It does not. It does take longer to get hot water than the tank version. The first drop of water out of the tankless is at the same temperature as the intake water whereas the first drop out of a tank is at the tank temperature. Big difference. If I shave and then immediately take a shower I will get a blast of cold water. While shaving the unit cools off meaning the hot water in the pipe will have a slug of cold water coming before the unit starts putting out hot water again. So I waste water while waiting for that blast of cold water to pass.
With a tank I set the temperature to 130 degrees. The tankless has a maximum temperature of 120 degrees. I would prefer hotter water. The saving in the gas bill is about $9 per month, however, the plumber who installs it charges $240 for the recommended bi-annual descaling. Bottom line the operation is more expensive than the tank, takes longer to get hot water, only allows one shower at a time, and wastes a lot of water heating up. If this unit goes bad I will go back to a tank.
This video is sponsored by some tankless company, what did you expect, its fuill of bullsh*t
When a client calls me to install a tankless I give three scenarios. 1. Space; do you absolutely have to have the space. 2. How often are you changing out your tank? If it’s less than 8 years then you’re a candidate for an assessment.
3. Home; are you always gone? Some of my clients are gone 3-9 months out of the year. Then my final question is do have to be reminded to change the oil in your car??? I personally won’t install a tankless unless I know that you sincerely need one. I don’t want an unhappy client.
@@Runescape. precisely 👍😀
Most tankless water heaters do that for safety reasons, BUT If you know where to look there should be a DIP switch inside the unit that you can change in order to allow higher temps.
This is the exact reason why when our tankless goes bad, and I hope it is sooner rather than later, there is a tank unit replacing it. Who the hell takes showers so long that they go through a tank of hot water. These things are nothing but a gimmick sold to non-engineers who don't understand simple thermodynamics.
VERY helpful and answered all my lingering questions. Thanks from Canada.
Thanks Matt! My current tank unit was installed in 2001 and I have been waffling back and forth between another tank and going tankless. Unless the quoted price is outrageously different, you just made up my mind. Cheers from North Texas.
I'm on the same boat...
The cold issues we have in Canada aren't with incoming water temps but flu vent problems, in severe cold the condensate in vent pipes ices up quickly and becomes blocked enough the unit shuts down with error code. There's always huge icecicles hanging off the terminations outside in January and February. Also with many units in basements in Canada when you get a lot of snow the vents get burried, and people forget to clear em.
I'm in Canada too. Buy a condensing tankless unit: there's almost no moisture in the exhaust air to freeze. More money, yes, but higher efficiency means less gas burned.
@@paulmaxwell8851 Ya! We have some IBC's and there doing great so far...🤞
then those vents should be higher or whatever needed so they don't get blocked. User should not have to go out in snow to clear vents. Geez it amazes me how much money is spent on construction design yet it so often does not accommodate real life conditions or actual human behavior.
Let play the "How many times can Matt say Rinnai in less than 10 minutes?" game.
It was part of the sponsor deal. Plus lying about the common lies.
At least he's not promoting Navien, where some models have a 90% chance of failure and/or CO leaks after a year/two.
@@MrTexasDan the biggest lie he is not talking about that thankless water heater can not be run by electricity. Wait, does Rinnai make those? No? Well if it puts down competitor s products it is not a lie but smart selling technique
@@andreycham4797 Without Elec. than the tank heater wont work either once the existing hot water is used considering what heats the tank uses electronics too. So...yea.
And if you want the tankless to work during a power loss, either get a UPS connected to it which will last for a few hours...or if its a long outage, people have their generators usually running, which you can power the unit off of.
@@andreycham4797 Electric tankless have a host of problems especially in cold climates. I'm planning a house build now and not a single unit allows for the consistent heat gain necessary. Gas tankless can do it buy I'm not planning on running gas to the house so I'll be using a hybrid heat pump kind of like what Matt actually uses in his house.
Okay it is later 2023. Our water heater was about to die and we had a few options. One was to replace with an electric water heater like we had before that lasted 17 years for $2,200. This one had a 10 year warranty and includes removing and installing the new tank. The tankless water heater quoted was gas and its cost installed was $6,200. We ended up going with the tankless not because it will end up saving us money, nor that we will have tons of hot water, as we never ran out before, but because we use so little hot water. I put this here because the "myth" of tankless water heaters being a lot more expensive is actually true. Even at todays prices I could buy near 3 tank water heaters for the price of one tankless.
TLDR version
Tank cost $2,200 installed
Tankless gas unit cost $6,200 installed.
I realize that it is ancient history but when I lived in Germany during the early 80's, I had a tankless water heater. It took a certain volume of flow to trigger it on. In my house on top of a mountain, that flow was at full on with the hot tap only. What you got was steam which would peel your skin off. I ended up taking cold showers for over 3 years.
Probably a change in technology, but I've never hit a minimum flow with the one I have currently and you can set the output temp to whatever you want it to be. The only issue I have had in 2+ years of use is when we had the dishwasher and clothes washer running at the same time I wanted to take a shower, I couldn't get it quite as hot as I wanted to. It was maxing out at just a bit cooler than I wanted. Every other day that I've had it, when I get in the shower I set the temp, and it stays at that exact temp for as long as I want to stand there.
never install one off city water
Just replaced a 34 year old electric water heater in a house I moved into last year as PREVENTATIVE maintenance. It was still going strong, but I figured it would be a good idea to replace at this point vs. eventually getting stuck when it finally broke down. Especially with prices on everything going up, and supply chain issues. It took over a month to get the new one as is with low inventory.
Who knows how long the old tank could have gone though, as the sacrificial rod was in great shape and it didn't look like it had ever been replaced. Who actually replaces them anyway? Not many.
My new one has thicker insulation and has a slightly lower annual operating cost than the old one. I never run out of hot water as it's sized right for the house. I installed it myself for under $800 total cost. A tankless would have been significantly more expensive. How many years would it have taken to make that back? Dunno, maybe not long with the way costs of everything, incl. electricity, is rising.
Oh, it's installed in a basement too, so space isn't an issue.
Point is, on demand makes sense for some people, but not for others.
Which brand/Model did you replace it with? And which Brand did you replace?
I used a Navian commercial grade tankless heater for my restaurant and it's been working amazingly. I do need to do some maintenance on it though. It's been 2 years since we put it in and haven't serviced it. I've seen some service videos and it's a quick DIY friendly process. Planning to install the combo unit for my house for both heating and hot water so I can discard the old boiler and hot wated heater to add a ton of extra closet space where the old units were
I'm leaning towards the Navien NPE-A2 for my home
I am from Europe, Tankless (low eff, fully analog, Junkers, now Bosch) lasts me&family 20-40 years as long as it is serviced every 1-2 years. Never descaled.
In winter i just turn gas valve one notch up.
I use the output temperature ~108F so as not to mix with the cold, but you can easily heat much more, my gas valve is set to 30%
Changed ~3 years ago was around ~450-500$ including labor.
I'd love to see a similar video addressing electric tankless water heaters.
Was just thinking this
Or how long it takes before the water is warm!
@@godzilla2k26 I traveled through Asia quite a bit and a lot of homes have tankless water. I've also been in a home in north America that had a tankless system for an upstairs bathroom. They're just as fast to get hot water if not faster than a regular tank heater. Like he mentions in the video, the time it takes to get hot water mostly depends on how long it takes to clear cold water that's sitting in the pipes between your faucet/shower and the heater, just like a regular water heater.
My experience in Asia is that a lot of these are installed at the site of service (I think they're electric in that case) and the hot water basically comes out within a few seconds because the heater is already right there at the shower head or at least in the bathroom.
Look at power requirements for electric tankless heaters before you get excited.
@@katherinelandreth2191 The one at our church is really slow to get up to temperature. But it replaced the old water heater and isn't close to the point of service, so that could be a significant factor. So in Asia are there multiple heaters per house or is it the point of service is just built closer to where you access the water?
I lived in the midwest, Chi-town, and had a 35-gal tank that lasted over 30 yrs with 3 people. Simple maintenance, and keeping the tank at a low but suitable temp. Tankless water heaters are basically for big families. the savings vary.
Big families? Where did you come up with that? I live alone in the NE USA, ground water average temp is 47°, yes I had a tank that lasted way more than 30 years until it rusted through. Put a new tank in but got tired of coming home after 3 days and hearing heater(natural gas) running to keep water hot when I hadn’t even used it for days. Tank was only 3 years old when I replaced it with a tankless. Tankless dropped my gas bill enough that it paid for itself in less than 1 year! I didn’t buy a “name brand” one. Even if I had it would pay for itself in a handful of years! I’ll never put in a tank heater again!
Tankless saved me $25-30 month living alone with a sub $200 gas and electric bill.
Put in a Rinnai about 15 years ago in NH inlet temps of 50 in the winter. No problem getting hot water. I did install a recirc pump in the Master bath to cut down on the time to get hot water and stop wasting all that water down the drain. Just press a button on the side of the vanity & it takes about 25 sec to get the hot water to shower ( have another one in the adjoining Hall bath and the unit also came with remotes we can use in the Kitchen and downstairs bath) Have a whole house sediment filter & when I clean the sediment screen on the Rinnai it is always barely dirty. It's easy to flush the unit myself - don't' need a plumber to do that. There are plenty of videos available to figure out how to DIY. I was lucky to be able to install it in my basement on an exterior wall so venting was very easy and not expensive in my case. Have had ZERO issues with it. Can't speak to other brands but When I was researching before my install Rinnai had a great reputation.
I had a tankless one 2 houses ago, it was fantastic! used it for 2years before i moved. only had one issue, fixed it myself. I also had vary hard water. wired up the remote in the bathroom. 103 deg for showers, only using hot water. it was very nice bieng able to do laundry all afternoon then go right to the shower. Oh and the kid or wife wants to take a bath right before you shower?? its got your back! I plan on replacing the tanked one in my current house this fall.
We've got this on our house and it's great but... we're killing off gas in a few years and will probably look at the heat-pump or PV-element options. It's seems a great option to dump your excess generation into water heating, that's if the grid/EV has no desire for it...
Great use of spare power. How much is electricity per KWh and gas per kWh or therm where you are? And where are you in the world?
I have a regular tank water heater for 20 years and it's still working great. However, although I thought about tankless, I don't like having to call a plumber every 6 months to maintain it. They require a LOT of flushes especially in hard water areas. Tankless will *NOT* stay hot during a power outage. It requires electricity to run the computer so it requires a plug or outlet. My tank water heater is easy, and I get hot water during power outages no matter how long. I flush it yearly and I can do it myself.
For those of us that don't have city water and live off a well, your claimed power outage comment is moot at best since the well pump will not be running. As for those on city water, a small UPS should be more than enough to keep power to a tankless if you must have hot water during a power outage, they are not a heavy load appliance.
As for servicing a tankless, your every 6 months comment is overexaggerating. Annual maintenance is all that is really needed (or suggested), and you should be doing that to a tank water heater as well, especially if you live in an area with hard water and you want to keep your warranty (most manufacturers require regular maintenance to keep warranty valid). Replacing a pre-filter and flushing the pipes can be done by the homeowner if they choose. For pipe flushing, you just need 1 or 2 5-gallon buckets, a small pump, and a hose. At least that is how mine is setup, connectors right below the unit.
Something to also keep in mind, the hotter you set your water to, the quicker scaling and build up can occur. With a tank water heater you tend to need to set your temp higher than you would a tankless for multiple reasons (bacteria growth prevention is one). This higher temp can be to a point where you can risk scalding. With a tankless, you can set your temp to a lower temperature that won't scald and has less scaling buildup. You still get the hot water you want, you just need to mix less cold water with it. And if you need the few moments where you need scalding hot water, it's quick and easy to dial it up for that occasion and then dial it back down right afterward.
I switched from a 50 gallon tank to tankless a few years ago. Biggest advantage and reason I switched was for the added space. My 50 gallon was in such a tight spot, sharing the same room as my air handler, well pressure tank, washer, and dryer. Performing any kind of maintenance on it was nearly impossible. Endless hot water has been great! I would say efficiency and energy savings was another reason, but I had too many factors occur around the time of install to say if it did save anything. I went from an electric tank to a propane tankless (no natural gas in my area), plus I had a major kitchen and dining room remodel, new appliances, shortly after the pandemic hit and the whole family was at home all the time, and cost of electricity was on the rise. Considering all of those factors, my electric bill managed to not increase, but I do have a propane bill now to go with it. Earlier this year I got solar and now my electric bill is $0. I did look at hybrid tanks but they won't fit where the old water heater was at (and nowhere else for it to go). I also considered an electric tankless but my electrician that was working on my kitchen remodel suggested against it, stating one sized for my house would require a huge power draw, which may lead to other issues.
Only thing I might do differently (and still might do), is get a small electric tankless to go under the kitchen sink. It is one of the farthest runs in the house and, aside from the shower, it is the most frequently used source for hot water. Doing this will get me hot water quicker and not trip the larger propane tankless for times that I only need a few seconds of hot water (or when the dishwasher runs).
so do new tanked units.. I hate tankless.. expensive.. hot water takes forever.. take a tub...30 minutes later ice cold water.. gotta drain tub to get warm again.. there is not heat transfer in pipes like tanked..so all that now cold water has to heat cold copper and release cold water.. Yes it lower gas bill...Mine failed 1400 2 repairs labor under warrenty..wanna see failed parts i keep them I did forensic exam.. heat chamber very complicated.. Neighbor replaced tanked start of service call to completed install in 3 hours or less.... mine took weeks..custom parts mailed to customer then reset to have tech come out to fix.. NO set appointment until parts at home.. more lost time.. Thank god i used wifes office showers.. Neighbors failed 3500 to replace unit on weekend after less then 10 years of service.. thats a reinstall all the parts are there.. i can show receipt..
@@peter-pg5yc Unless water is constantly flowing through those pipes, those pipes are going to cool down, tank or tankless. Heat retention in the home's pipes overall coming from a tank water heater is going to be minimal. A short distance from the tank, sure. But with no water flow to keep all that sitting water in the pipes heated, that energy is going to taper off very quickly. So either way, tank or tankless, if you ran hot water, stopped for a while, then ran hot water again, both will have to push the water that was sitting in the pipes through before the hot water arrives.
What you don't get with a tank that happens with a tankless is what is known as a the cold water sandwich. That happens when fresh, colder water reenters the tankless to be heated and there is a brief moment where the water is colder than the final output temp. Depending on the length of the pipe run, how much heat retention remained in the pipes between runs will determine the severity of the cold water sandwich as the heated pipes will transfer heat to the cold water, vice versa. Insulating your hot water pipes (if possible) can help slow heat dissipation for when hot water is used frequently, for both tank and tankless. All my plumbing runs under the house in the crawlspace, so most of it is easily accessible. But if you have gone for long periods of time between using hot water, majority of the pipe run will have reached a cooler, ambient temp, insulated or not.
As far as the tub comment, I don't get how heat transfer in the pipes helps keep your tub warm. Water in the tub for both tank and tankless should cool off at a similar rate given the water temp was the same for both, the tub isn't being heated by the pipes. Now, if you are talking about wanting to add hot water to a tub that has cooled off, then you may be referencing the cold water sandwich I mentioned earlier. While it may be a brief shock, the length of experiencing that should be minimal and hot water will follow pretty quickly afterwards. In my home, my tankless is in the center of my house. Both tubs are within 8 feet of the tankless (and my washer is in the same room, so an even shorter of a run), just on the other side of the walls. Both tubs receive hot water within seconds. Keep in mind, though, that one of the more common water heater tank sizes is 50 gallons and the average bathtub takes 42 gallons to fill up to the overflow drain. If your water got cold and you need to refill it again, chances are pretty good that the tankless is going to be able to supply more hot water for both tub fills than the tank water heater. With the tank, you would have depleted most of it from the first tank fill and it would be working hard to try and heat up another 42 gallons in time for the second fill (especially if that tank is electric, like my old unit was), even more so if you are trying to fill two separate tubs in short order or at the same time. Meanwhile, aside from the brief cold water sandwich, the tankless will be able to keep up (providing it was properly sized).
Now for those that frequently turn on and off the hot water for a few seconds at a time in back to back succession (HE washer, dishwasher, children, for example), I do find that a tank has an advantage there. Luckily, my washer is only a few feet away from the tankless, so its impact is minimal there. As for my dishwasher, along with my kitchen sink, it is the furthest run from the water heater in my home. Even with my old tank, it took a while to get hot water, so no major difference there. The only noticeable difference is when it does call for water (dishwashers don't run the water all the time, they only take enough for each cycle). As such, the dishwasher's internal water heater probably does put in more work to heat the water, but it's designed to provide supplemental heating when needed, especially when using the sanitation cycle, but you could attach it to a cold water line if you wanted. As mentioned in my previous comment, what I am thinking of doing is installing a POU water heater under the kitchen sink. This will provide me with near instant hot water (something neither a tank nor tankless could provide) and will be much more tolerant to frequent on/off uses, which does happen between the dishwasher and washing dishes by hand. But this would be to solve a problem I was experiencing long before I went to tankless.
I do agree that a "traditional" tank water heater can be swapped out from a failure quicker than a tankless IF parts are not readily available. But that is assuming you are not picky about what you want to replace the old tank with. If you have a newer style tank, like a hybrid tank (heat pump), you may be just as likely to be waiting for a repair or replacement as you would be for the tankless. As for cost, a basic traditional tank water heater can be quite a bit cheaper. But the more energy efficient models and those with longer warranties, the price difference between tank and tankless can be quite comparable. I can't state what difference in labor cost is between the two when it comes to swapping out for an identical unit, but I would think that it would be cheaper in labor to swap out for a same type unit than it would be to convert from tank to tankless or vice versa. Now, initial investment converting from tank to tankless can be pretty pricey, I can attest to that. But for my needs and use case, the tankless was the better choice for my home in the long run than sticking to a traditional tank setup.
But as the old saying goes, your mileage may vary. One type of setup may work better for one home than another, same goes for their use case.
You omitted the fact that you have a chimney. Most homes in the last 20 years dont. They use power vent tank type water heaters. Chimneys are very expensive to build.
@@anthonyspadafora1384 Not sure if this was directed at me, but I don't have a chimney. Original water heater was electric, converted to a propane tankless. I have a one story rambler. They ran a PVC concentric termination ventilation system straight through the ceiling and roof, compliant with local building codes and passed inspection. All included in my original cost of conversion. While I don't have an itemized breakdown of costs in front of me, that one portion of the project didn't appear to be much of the overall price to install that.
We installed the tankless in all our homes since 2001. Over 1500 installed. Great invention!
Love my Rinnai Tankless unit! Highly recommended. Great video!
If you live in Canada or somewhere up north with hard water. These machines are not very good. Have been through 2 tankless water heaters with flushing an maintenance every 6 months. Stick with the normal water tank! We'll be switching back once this one goes.
I've had on demand water heaters for about 40 years, but originally only at my ranch. I switched my residence water heater from a tank to a tankless about 25 years ago. I agree that they are better than tanks for MOST things. But, there ARE some things I don't like about them. 1. Noisier : so much nicer to have it outside. 2. they waste more water. ESPECIALLY if they are inside and the have to vent, so the fan is on venting and cooling off the combustion chamber every time you turn it off. Fan goes for a minute or two. But also, since there has to be water flowing thru the unit to get it warm, then it takes longer to get hot water to the place it is being used. So I highly recommend placing the heater outside, BUT make it close to the place that hot water is used intermittently but often, IE the kitchen. It definitely uses a bit more water.
Can they be place outside in places that have freezing temps in winter?
I install Rinnais and also love clearing blocked drains
I have tankless for 11 months now. Love it. And I just did the annual flush/descaling. Piece of cake. Like anything else, watch plenty of youtube videos to get familiar with all the steps including cleaning the filter before you start.
My only beef is the time it takes for the hot water to reach the faucet. So in the morning while brushing my teeth, I fill up the sink. When the water is warm, I use it for multiple things before pulling the plug.
Ok had my first tankless water heater in 1983. Again in 1999. Works great. Love it !
Matt, didn’t you install a heat pump tank style water heater in your home remodel? If so, curious why not a tankless?
It is whoever he is being sponsored by.
Heat Pump water heaters like the Sanden CO2 is by far the most efficient and long lasting. There are reasons tankless might make sense, but for efficiency and every day use, tankless doesn't make sense especially if you have hot water recirculation loops.
because he is a shill who goes with what the sponsors pay for
I don’t consider the statements he’s making to be “ lies” …..they are all very valid points made in the field and each application has its own challenges. I’m sure there are many many cases where each lie can be confirmed as very true.
But that's not how Rinnai wrote the script don't you know. Early in the video is comparing 60% efficient tanked to tankless but then sure isn't using that same tanked model's price when talking about how tankless are the same price.
@@jhoff12358 couldn’t agree more…. Gotta stick to the script 👍 . One example…Currently where I work ( Maine,USA) if a water heater ( tank) goes bad it can be replaced in almost no time with a subsidized heat pump HW heater for 1/10th the cost to the homeowner compared to switching to a tankless and cost go go much higher if no gas in the building.
Another example about how long it takes HW to get to a fixture…. That’s just crazy to call it a “lie” because that applies equally to ALL types of hot water sources.
@@dominicm2175 that "subsidized" heat pump may be attractive to purchase, but for those of us in California paying $0.39/KWH, it will cost a fortune to run. The politicians want us to get on board, but they haven't really come to grips with the fact much of our power is generated through burning affordable natural gas. Solar is plentiful, but storage is not. California's environmentalists hate zero-carbon nuclear power, and are set to decommission our last plant in the next couple of years (responsible currently for 10% of our power source). I'm glad we have gas service to our home, and will continue to leverage the lower operational cost of gas utility over electric. I'm excited to put our new Rinnai tankless into service later this year.
@@jhoff12358 I kinda question the efficiency figures. In a tankless water is constantly moving through the system so there is little time to apply heat. in a tank, every calorie of heat MUST pass to the water before it dissipates. The very fact these tankless heaters need huge amounts of power to do the same job a tanked one can also casts doubt on those efficient numbers.
@@steveloux4709 Embedded solar PV in your roof tiles along with the right battery storage system in California is the best option. Then you can ditch the electric company and the gas company. All electric appliances and cars (or trucks) are the way forward. Get on board.
Thank you. My last apt had a turquoise water heater with a plate that said 1965! When my landlord finally replaced it because it was not to code, it took four really strong guys to carry it 12 ft to their truck, it was almost solid inside. It was a miracle I got any hot water from it at all.
He gets me every time with that ending “oooooon the build show”. You can see it in his face that he loves saying it as well, nice video Matt
Thanks Rick. That ending is cemented in my brain and I smile as I start saying it!
It would be great if you and the sponsor could work through real world applications and how to prevent the hot, cold, hot (pancake) effect. Also tanks give out a more consistent temp and it changes slowly. With our newer and modern tankless if someone runs hot water which changes the temp slightly the shower gets cold and when the water is shut off (like in the case of a dishwasher) the shower gets super hot. I’m sure there are ways to mitigate this this but it’d be nice to see a video addressing common issues in real world applications that your typical installer may not know or may assume isn’t a problem. Thx!
Shhhhhh
The real issue you describe isn't a water heater issue. It is a supply issue. If the incoming water pressure is low there will be more effect on temperature change in the shower mixing cold and hot water. The larger the water supply and smaller the branches will lessen this hot to cold to hot fluctuation. Typically the main lines would be 3/4" tho 1" pipe would be even better except more water would have to be delivered to raise the line temperature. Branches are typically 1/2" pipe wit 3/8" supply lines coming from the supply valves.
@@aNuthaRedneck pancake effect is pretty well known with tankless. In this situation I’ve experienced it with a 40/60 lb well w/a 12gph pump and properly pressurized well tank and the shower is a flow restricted shower head - while a restricted water supply may also cause this, in our case I don’t think it’s a water supply issue.
Wow, Matt makes tankless sound really good and foolproof in this sponsored video. I have to disagree with his assessment though.
I live in Michigan with colder water temps but that was only one of the many factors that informed my decision to stay with a tank water heater.
It's a laborious pain in the ass but I'd encourage anyone thinking of switching to a tankless to do your own research.
I'm remodeling my whole house, tore out a natural vent tanked water heater and the entire chimney it vented through. I researched tankless off and on for a couple months. Reading manufacturer manuals, reading reviews, watching "experts" on RUclips, speaking to my gas company about how many btu's are actually supplied through my existing pipe etc. You name it.
In my opinion tankless makes a lot of sense for alot of homes, especially those in the south. But, my judgement was too many unknown variables for my home.
For starters, replacing an electric dryer and stove to gas and then a 40,000 btu tank heater to 200,000 = new gas meter because according to the gas tech the meter would've been my problem not my line from the road to it or my line coming in.
My old meter would supply about 250,000 and a new one would supply about 400,000.
Then add in circulation pumps and activation flow rates, yearly cleaning costs and yes, hard water.
I was going to install myself but directly from the manufacturers, not having a certified plumber install it= voided warranty. Not installing another appliance (a water softener)= voided warranty.
So, I decided to go with a power vent tank water heater.
Unfortunately even if you watch videos and do homework you’ll still fall short. I make a living servicing tankless units and I own a 40 gallon short. For 101 basics, tankless units are used way differently in Japan and Germany. They conserve both water and gas/electricity. Case in point shower head volume here vs ones used overseas. Water temperature here Vs overseas. The units overseas most likely see less burn hours than the units used here.
Were you going to have to pay for a new meter?
@@anthonyspadafora1384 Possibly. The tech said they may try charging me for it but in her opinion I shouldn't have to pay. So, to be determined.
@@cdyoung976 Not here. If you need a larger meter they are there in a couple days. If you are changing from oil to gas there is no charge to run the line from the street.
Your timing couldn’t be any better regarding a tankless water heater thank you
I recommend getting the filter to stop hard water buildup on heading coils
My Tankless failed in 14 months, it was very problematic shutting down, drawing codes every month or 2. My new one has been running for 5 months with no issues. Probably would never switch to tankless again, but it was very easy to change out when it failed completely.
What brand? Mine has been running for 5years straight in a 6 person house with no issues.
@@geoffmooregm what brand you got?
@@devinsheaven It is a Navien.
Installed the same unit on the right and was upset that I had to pay an extra $120 for the vent kit. You can't install the unit without a vent so why didn't it come included?
I think you just answered your own question
@@tubulartuber greed, true that.
Generally venting is sold separately, because houses are different and its not possible to have an omnipotent venting kit that is suitable for every or even most of the installations.
@@PunaJussi Understandable but they shouldn't advertise it showing the vent then. .
I put in a gas tankless hot water heater in 2010, was a few difficulties in getting it installed, but once installed has been great.
I've been using tankless in my holes and my friends homes for well over 15 years. I've even got an old Paloma (bought at Home Depot about 12 yrs ago) on my RV that absolutely rocks!
Matt, didn't you learn your lesson 2 winters ago about putting a water heater OUTSIDE the conditioned envelope of the house?
This is a paid advertising not a no bs overlook.
He never mentioned outside units in the video
@@Steve-bm2zm Right at the very beginning. "You can even put them outside"
Agree that I would generally put these inside the home. We froze a bunch of tankless units when my past clients lost power for a week a few winters ago.
He's still showing plumbers installing plumbing in exterior walls in every other video... including in his own house (though at least he has some exterior insulation). So, nope. Texas builders learned not a single thing from getting a taste of winter. They're still plumbing exterior walls and still running supply lines above ground and still not installing isolation valves and drains behind their hose bibs and still willing to put a water heater outside.
My #1 reason was to eliminate the possibility of the tanks flooding the basement. For some reason the previous owner had 2 tanks. Got rid of both 12 years ago with a Rinnai.
I reside in Northern Virginia. Four years ago I purchased and professionally installed a top-of-the-line WW Granger German ELECTRIC all house tankless. During the winter of 21/22 the tank’s internal circuit breakers kept popping because the external water temperature was too cold. Two tankless professionals from two different plumbing companies confirmed that it was the ‘extreme’ difference between the external water temperature and the setting on the tankless. I reduced the temperature setting on the tankless from 115 to 100 degrees. No joy. I reluctantly went back to the tank. The tankless just would not work in this cold temperature latitude. I was lucky to get 3 1/2 years. It turned out to be a very expensive experiment.
GREAT info- I passed it to my son-in-law! I have a tankless system at my NJ house and LOVE IT! In PA I found that where installers don't know HOW to install them, they NIX them!! NOw I'll try to find someon in Florida to replace my tank hot water heater that just broke!
Matt - sounds like you’re “in the tank” for tankless WHs. 😆
No he's just in the tank for Rennai. Lol
Yes and he has no idea what he's talking about - not the first time by a long shot for this channel.
What about those heat pump water heaters you've done videos on?
I put one in our first house in Houston, water was great, the particulates that fell out was insane! I had to empty the particulate filter weekly. We were running Houston water and when the hot water hit the cool pipes the particulate fell out, probably close to a quart a week.
I’ll never put them on the outside of my house again. We live in San Antonio and had both our water heaters get destroyed during the freeze (and power outage). Lessons learned to avoid that in the future, but for me, I’d at least put them in the garage to shelter the exposed piping from the wind chill. Even with the freeze protection built into the unit, we still have issues with the inlet pipes freezing on us. Minus that issue, we LOVE the tankless Rinnai’s.
Wind chill only has an effect on skin, as it blows the heated air layer away from your skin. Inanimate objects don't care if there's a 50 mph wind, the air temperature is all that matters to freeze pipes.
@@brockwagner939 wind chills was the wrong word. Below freezing + windy conditions are going to speed up the heat loss/transfer of the water in the pipes vs freezing temps + no wind. We’ve had issues with the exposed parts of our water heaters every winter for the past five years since our home build. In South Texas. And more so, the one installed above the A/C unit that’s constantly blasting it with air.
I much prefer the tankless water heaters, but I have had not had the experience in longevity that you claim. I have 4 tankless water heaters in the home (including guest house) that we live in. I replaced one after 5 years, the second one after 7 years, the third one after 8 years, but the 4th one is still going strong. I doubt if it will last 2 decades as claimed.
How often the you have them serviced? Once a year is recommended.
I'm a fan of the channel and really love watching some of the cool projects and products you share with us, but this one feels a bit too shill-ly for my tastes. I know you have a lot of sponsored content on your show, and I think you usually handle the sponsor better and more evenhandedly than you did here. I would have preferred to have seen how this compares and contrasts with other legitimate recommendations you've made for heat-pump tanks or other solutions on the market. You can do better than this.
Ok Jason. Appreciate the feedback. Thanks for your support. Matt
@@buildshow I disagree, tankless is a great product. Perhaps more comparison and a discussion of when tank style makes sense would improve this type of video but I think this was informative enough already.
Myth's a much better implication than lie.
Yes, a really disappointing video. Replacing myths about thankless with questionable statements about tanked. At best thankless can get close to 100% efficient, but a heat pump HWS can be 400% efficient. Plus that can be 100% renewable energy. Many cities are banning new gas connections to deal with the climate crisis...and then we have this video.
@@buildshow took it on the chin, good man. I’d like to jump on the bandwagon here and say that you could definitely dive deeper into this topic. One question I’ve been pondering is regarding the decision to use a big tankless heater or a few smaller localized heaters. As cool as those big manifold systems look, I’m just not convinced they are necessary.
I love this channel! It gives me an opportunity to learn about new technologies. Much of which I will probably never use or get a chance to work with? However, I like having the advantage to be well informed.
Now tank less water heaters are something I have much experience with. I've been using one for almost two decades.
I would like to point out one detail Matt didn't address? He said something to the effect of "never run out of hot water again?" This isn't exactly true... I've run out of hot water several times!
Remember the heater is dependent on two important things? 1st is obviously water. 2nd would be gas or electricity to heat that water?
In my case, I simply ran out of propane.
Had several types of hot water heater over many years in Australia. The original was a couple of tank less mains pressure from the 30's (415 volts). They worked ok but used a lot of power and were not that safe. They were replaced with a tank style to take advantage of off peak power, it was ok but after 7 years and one month (warranty was 7 years} it started to leak. Replaced it and added a solar hot water heater, made a 60% difference to power consumption and with servicing lasted another 20 years. Replaced with the same but modern and that improved again by another 15% (6% overall). 10 years later we fitted solar to the roof for electrical assistance it worked ok so fitted more and removed the roof mounted hot water solar system. The tank style unit was also replaced with a tank style that used hot air to aid the heating process . We have plenty of solar electricity and usually put way more into the grid than we use but occasionally use more during the day. I had some battery's fitted when the last hot water service died and went back to a house wide demand system. Probably due to not storing hot water for days Overall it's the best it has ever worked.
One interest thing that I found (accidentally due to aeshetic choices) is that separate hot/cold controls work much better for temperature adjustments with tankless. And it's best to turn the hot on first then adjust by adding in cold, especially for the more distant faucets. My experience anyway.
Wait! What happened to the comparison to heat pump water heaters? Thought they were even more efficient.
they are, but its a sponsorded video soooo...
Agree. This video came off like a paid ad.
Pay attention, this was about tankless
For me the attraction of heat pump is electric rather than natural gas or propane. It seems to be easier to run on off grid solar than an electric resistance heater because the power draw is low and constant rather than high and instantaneous. I'll probably go heat pump but mostly since I want to try 100% electric to avoid a propane tank and add solar to net-zero it.
@@daveklein2826 and he had a previous comparison showing how much better heat pump water heaters were. pay attention to the question.
We had tankless water heating in Latin America in the 60s. The shower head had a resistance coil and just plugged in to a nearby wall socket. You controlled the temperature with the water flow - more water, colder, less water, warmer. Very effective!
When we had our gas Rinnai Tankless installed, they had to put a manifold in the garage attic and the gas co. had to install a bigger meter. The unit has worked flawlessly since installation. We never ran out of hot water before, but look forward to a long, stress-free lifetime from the unit.
As a European I'm kind of surprised of a life span of only a decade for a tank water heater.
It's usually 25+ years around here.
If you get some of the really cheap junk that is sold in some home improvement stures, the life expectancy of a tank water heater can be as low as 6 years
@@shannabolser9428 So where people should get their tank from?
@@MarcFun you can go to a plumbing supply house where that is all they do or a trusted local hardware store can sell some good ones sometimes. AO Smith is a good brand.
apparently a main "advantage" of a tankless, i.e. not running out of hot water, would more simply be cured by having a larger tank. in other words, it is not an advantage of tankless over tank, only of tankless over inadequate tank. I started out believing in tankless but after seeing all the issues with error codes, parts replacements, parts not available, plus more demanding venting, wiring, piping... and no hot water with electric outage?!... I'm just gonna get a larger tank. For larger homes, more than one tank seems to work fine especially where there's distance between plumbing stacks.
That is an advantage but not the main advantage. The main advantage is there is NO STANDBY LOSS. 1 POUND OF WATER 1 DEGREE 1BTU! This is obviously a very difficult concept for you to understand! Go make a pot of coffee, turn off the machine and come back in a couple of hours and get yourself a cup of coffee...what happened? The coffee is cold! why? Because the heat has escaped to the atmosphere! Insulation slows the process but when you are talking about an uninsulated flue tied into a chimney that continuously pulls cool basement air up through the water heater it loses it's heat almost as fast as that coffee pot. A larger tank will just hold more pounds of water and will cost you even more.
@@anthonyspadafora1384 well duh, guess what, i DO understand standby loss, and it is one reason i started out thinking tankless was the way to go. Clearly you have more interest in calling me stupid, than in acknowledging that the MANY issues i listed are relevant for at least some users.
Here in the midwest we have natural gas water heater. Electric units last maybe 8-10 years here. Just changed a thermocouple on a gas heater that was manufactured in 94'. Thats 30 years. Cant beat that.
Don't have a Rinnai but I've used an electric EcoSmart tankless water heater for about five years and love it. Had to hire an electrician to add three double pole breakers to my electric box but other than that the heater took me about ten minutes to install...les time than to remove the old tank heater. It has copper pipes and being electric doesn't need venting or anything else, just one inlet and one outlet and a lot of juice. However, since it only runs when I need it I actually save on my power bill. I'll never live in a house without an electric tankless again. Oh and the unit itself was only $350