2024 Heat Pump Water Heater Buyers Guide
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- Опубликовано: 8 янв 2024
- In this exciting episode, Matt talks about new ENERGY STAR certified products from high end brand names such as LG, SANCO2, American Standard Water Heaters, Bradford White, & More! Episode sponsored by ENERGY STAR.
6:27 - Residential Heat Pump Water Heater Performance in the Upper Midwest Reference Link
Choose an ENERGY STAR certified heat pump water heater for the biggest energy savings, plus find more savings with tax credits and rebates at the links below.
ENERGY STAR HPWH Federal Tax Credit Information www.energystar.gov/about/federal_tax_credits/water_heaters_non_solar
ENERGY STAR HPWH Utility Rebate Finder www.energystar.gov/rebate-finder/HPWH
ENERGY STAR HPWH Installer and Retail Finder Tool www.energystar.gov/productfinder/water-heater-installers/
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Very cool...sponsored by Energy Star instead of a manufacturer. Adds a lot of credibility for this topic!
ROFLMAO.
Credibility from USA government?
Lmfao
You mean a cool video of whoever paid the most money to the government?
F the government.
Another benefit is these water heaters are easy to run on generator power during an outage. My Rheem HPWH only draws around 300-400 Watts in heat pump only mode compared to the 4500 W of a typical resistance type. That frees up a lot of reserve capacity for other needs or allows you to get by with a smaller generator.
Yeah unless the backup elements kick in. Maybe there is a way to temporarily disable those in a power outage and run heat pump only.
@@kevin9c1 As described by Risinger, most seem to have a "heat pump only" mode switch.
Thats why I like gas
Same with “inverter” or VFD air conditioning systems. They have zero inrush current so they are very easy to start up.
Good point, hadn't thought of that
The CDC recommends setting the storage (tank) temperature to above 140F and setting the flow (tank output) temperature to above 120F by utilizing a thermostatic mixing valve (or equivalent component), while OSHA recommends exactly 140F for the storage and exactly 122F for the flow - both agencies intending to optimize for sanitation against biological contaminants like legionella. The EPA recommends 120F for both storage and flow - intending to optimize for efficiency while at least preventing legionella growth (though it won't kill it.) Most water heater manufacturers leave it up to the consumer to decide how they want to optimize, but advise against settings over 140F for long term use due to the extra wear it causes on the system components. State and local plumbing codes determine the acceptable maximum hot water tap temperatures from an anti-scald perspective. In my area, 135-140F storage mixed to 120F flow and tap is very common, with the strategy being to kill in the tank and prevent growth in the lines while still meeting the anti-scald requirements.
A thermostatic mixing valve and a circulator are two very different things. A circulator system often requires a thermostatic mixing valve, but in many if not most systems (like in many of the places I've lived) the thermostatic mixing valve is not used with a circulator pump system-it merely regulates the hot supply from the boiler or tank down to a temperature appropriate for supply to faucets, clothes washers, & showers. This kind of setup, without a circulator, is what he was talking about in the video.
@@DrewNorthup I edited my comment for clarity. Previously I meant "circulation" to reflect water at flow as opposed to "tank" and "storage" to reflect water at-rest, but I can see how the use of that word might also unintentionally imply a circulator-type system or components. Meeting the CDC/OSHA/EPA recommendations in a circulator-type system is a bit more complicated unless a tankless/on-demand water heater is used, and I usually only see tank-with-circulator setups in commercial applications like hotels (so outside the scope of this video.)
well... the main reason for this is really for commercial applications... the reason is to reduce the incidence of Legionnaire Disease caused by the water supply
@@billceve9830 The recommendations are applicable to any hot water system, commercial or residential, but commercial entities are definitely far more likely to face fines and lawsuits if legionella crops up and they weren't following the recommendations. The news media often covers the reports of Legionnaire Disease from hotels and resorts and campgrounds, but the occurrences in residential settings are actually quite a bit more frequent by comparison - probably due to people cutting corners when less financial liability exposure is involved.
I installed a GE Geotherm in my place back in 2009 for ~$600 installed after the rebate. and it's still up& running! Saved ~$40/month (fam of 4) over the outgoing old-school electric unit. Have saved $7200 in electricity costs so far.
I love my Geotherm.
Yeah. My Geospring just hit 11 years old running nonstop in heat pump only mode with zero issues.
Yeah. My Geospring just hit 11 years old running nonstop in heat pump only mode with zero issues.
Yeah. My Geospring just hit 11 years old running nonstop in heat pump only mode with zero issues.
Who paid for all the rebates?
Thank you for featuring these hybrid heaters again. They are by far the best solution for the majority of residential water heating needs. They are a much better choice than "on-demand" heaters due to the greatly improved efficiency and they blow away traditional storage heaters.
Absolutely NOT 100% true. What you said as written is true as long as the water heater is functioning properly. These pieces of junk may last 10 years or 10 days. When they break, NOBODY will work on them and the only solution is to remove the water heater and return it for yet another piece of junk hybrid water heater that WILL eventually break. I went through this with a GE Geotherm water heater that stopped functioning properly and would only heat with the back up electric heat coils. GE refused to work on it and gave me several "authorized" GE repair businesses that ALSO REFUSED to work on it. GE later told me that they had so many problems with this water heater that they sold it to Bradford White along with all of the spare parts and repair responsibilities. Bradford White REFUSED to send anyone out to work on my GE Geotherm Hybrid water heater and would only send me a big box full of parts that to this day, I still have and STILL cannot get ANY repair business to come work on it. If you DIY the install of the water heater, the cost may not be so bad if you can do that, put it in your truck and take it back to where you purchased it. If you have to pay a plumber to do this, it is very expensive. DO NOT BUY these heat pump water heaters PERIOD! Bradford White or GE will NOT stand behind the warranty like you think so CAREFULLY read the warranty as I'm sure that the warranty will NOT cover the cost of installation and removal.
@@wrfarms9741I'm sure you had a problem with a GE/Bradford White model getting serviced, but the fact these things have been in circulation for almost 20 years tells me you're making way more of your problem than is warranted.
I installed a Rheem in 2020 in my basement which is 55 degrees in the winter. It didn’t work so well at 55 so I connected an 8 inch insulated flex duct to a vent under my refrigerator (which is located on the floor above) and the intake on the Rheem. My air temperature at the Rheem intake went from 55 to 73. Our hot water is great all year now. I used 400 kWh a month with my old electric hot water heater. The Rheem uses 125 kWh a month! It’s set on heat pump only and we have plenty of hot water. Also, my house is power by solar so I use the electric savings to power our EV.
I have the same situation and was wondering if this would work. Thanks a bunch
This is the best HPWH evaluation i have seen on youtube to date. Plumber for 49 yrs retired. I have a HPWH in myhome for 12 years now. Best in an unconditioned area and will make some noise but as mentioned they are getting quieter. Nice job Matt.
What brand?
What are unconditioned areas
Friend had a heat pump water heater installed in unfinished game room basement. Turned it into a meat locker. You can feel the cold thru the vinyl floor above, not so much in the carpet areas. Floor is insulated, but not a gyp ceiling in the basement. In fall winter & spring forget about trying to use the basement game room and bar. You should learn how to butcher and hang meat down there.
@@-whackdNo heating or cooling vents. Typical in northern basements. Especially in newer home builds, track homes & housing developments. To keep costs down basements are unfinished/ unconditioned.
Awesome to have Energy Star as the sponsor, love videos like this. I do wish the dB ratings some manufacturers could be trusted, as i’ve had 2 recent Rheem heat pump units where the newest model was much louder (and dB suddenly unlisted). I finally went with 45dB State. I do work near the unit in my open basement, and it’s right under our bedroom. so noise levels are very important to us. I realize most folks won’t care.
Did a Rheem HPWH with DWHR unit on shower drain a year ago. Very pleased with it.
In laundry room in basement. Ontario Canada.
Yes, about 12000 BTU/h cooling when running. Runs about 6 hours in our pretty water heavy using household. Did the 240V version so if heat pump needs service still would have hot water, but never used resistance yet.
Dehumidifier never runs any more.
Replaced a B vent gas water heater, and closing B vent cut high eff gas furnace run time even though it now fights a bit in winter with the HPWH.
Hang up the laundry on racks in same room as it is and laundry dries on them in about 6 hours winter or summer.
Only run the clothes dryer in the winter when we wash bed sheets or a lot of towels. that cuts gas furnace run time as well.
Nearly ready to install our heat pump water heater in the next month or so. Excited to see how well it works. Also have been running a condensing dryer as well based on your recent installation. It’s nice keeping all the air inside the building! Thanks for your recommendations!
Definitely the most work I've ever seen Matt do on the show. Great job 👍
Matt, I put a heat pump water heater in my house eight years ago because of your recommendation all those years ago, and Ive loved it ever since. Thanks for the suggestion.
Planning to buy a HPWH here in a few months, so this is perfect timing.
I wanted to install one of these in Southern California to replace a broken tankless electric heater. The heat pump was $2k, but the plumbers all wanted $6k-$8k for the install! I was going to do it myself, since the location was perfect, 240V @60A was already there, just needed a condensate line through the outside wall. But ended up just replacing the tankless heater myself for $120. Would’ve taken a VERY long time to recover that difference! Especially since I have solar.
In the EU, we usually take outside air in the winter time to heat the water and exhaust to the outside as well. Inside air is unchanged.
My personal setup has a 3 way valve for the air inlet and outlet (costs $40 total). I flip those in the summer months, now it takes inside air and dehumidifies and cools that and exhausts into the laundry room.
Can you post a link or name of the air switching valve device? I have the same concerns about air cooling and drying effect during winter time. Thanks.
This sounds like the way to go, and would best be designed in new construction. I too would like to have the name of your 3-way valve.
Found this channel, I am so freaking addicted to your content. Great work!
I think they're easy to install, even if you're not a builder, which I'm not. The hardest part for me was getting it down the stairs into the basement, because they are HEAVY!
Installed the Rheem 80 gallon 3 years ago. I have been very pleased with it.
Perfect timing Matt. Thank you for this great video!
we installed one in our house because of your videos! It took over a month just to get it because of shipping damage and finding someone to install it because few plumbers wanted to. Its been great with keeping the bathrooms humidity low and cool
Great to see this channel growing, been here for years
Matt, you are just a one man unboxing machine!!! Those poor boxes never stood a chance with Matt the box man on site.
I attacked a microwave box the other day😂🎉it was really gratifying
Finally found the SanCO2, it is amazing. Didn’t go over what sets it apart from the other units, like a stainless steel tank or using CO2 as the refrigerant making it more efficient, but it’s a start.
Stay tuned for a follow up to this video posting in the near future
Or the fact the Sanden can have much larger tanks, or even multiple tanks driven off of the same outdoor unit.
@@buildshowI'd love to hear insights on whether it could be used for both domestic hot water and hydronic heating. That would be amazing.
@@BobPritchard Sanden themselves say no, because it's only 15k BTU. They only recommend it for a small space or in a Net Zero home. But there is a company that uses the Sanden compressor with a smart controller and large tanks as a thermal battery.
You have to be careful finding installers, I recently got a quote for $17k to install one.
Matt - great content. Part 2 - I would like to see how these hybrid heat pump water heaters work alongside a recirculation pump.
If Matt does this suggested Part #2, I'm certain that EnergyStar won't be sponsoring it. :-)
Matt has a heatpump water heater and recirculation system in his own house. I assume they work fine.
Yes this would be so useful! I think many installers could benefit from this. (See my other comment about my experience with an installer who claimed to know but clearly did not know how to use one with a recirculation pump)
This is covered in ENERGY STAR sponsored training but would have been a good idea to include in this segment as well. Manufacturers state that recirc pump is fine as long as its a "smart" recirc pump set to a timer for when showers, bathroom use is most common, or have bathroom sensor to indicate pending use. You don't want the pump running 24h/7 w/ a HPWH.
I have two Rheem hybrid water heaters and a recirc pump, and it works "fine" only by a very limited metric.
Even with two heaters working together, they can't keep up with the demands of my five-person household unless they are in "high demand" mode. Forget "heat pump only" mode. And in a recent discussion with Rheem technical support, after the water heater's emergency cutoff (ECO) tripped, I was told that I shouldn't be using "high demand" mode (if not, why did they bother putting that mode in the unit?), and that in any case, the water heater shouldn't be used with a recirc pump.
The tech's position was that it's just too much load on the water heater, and that can lead to glitches like the overtemp tripping (he didn't explain why that would be...seems to me if anything an excessive load on the water heater will keep the internals cooler, but...whatever...that' what he said).
My water heaters are about 5 years old. Maybe the newer models are better. But my own experience has not been favorable and I was told specifically (after the fact, of course) that I shouldn't be trying to use the heat pump water heater with a recirc pump.
(And yes, the recirc pump is on a timer.)
Very cool that your sponsor is Energy Star. I have a Rheem 3.55 and it does something I never expected. It delivers way more hot water in heat pump only mode than our 5,500W water heater at our previous house. In hybrid mode once, I’ve felt it run out because we ran too much at once accidentally and it recovered the hot water while I was showering. It is powerful! That and it helps cool our garage that we air condition/dehumidify in Florida. Lots of benefits!
fuck the government.
Very cool! Thanks for commenting
Of course the obvious answer in Florida, California in a garage. But for colder climates placed indoors there are real cons-
@@johnwhite2576agree, also in retrofit for older homes like mine in Provo Utah (basements are only 6ft tall).
@@xokissmekatexo The sanco would still be a decent option. They claim it functions past -25f outdoor temps which should really cover your worst winter days. They have a really well thought out system and all the functionality is there to set it up as a thermal battery with a solar system or time of use power.
Still need to see a Mitsubishi City-Multi compatible heat-pump water heater and a refridgerator + freezer... then a ventless drier. One converged system to handle all heat "movement" within a building.
This way you aren't "rejecting cold" into the conditioned envelope from a water heater (and messing with the humidity) - and you have the ability to recover the heat lost by the device's insulation to the conditioned envelope.
We're getting closer here... there's enough here to start having a good HVAC tech hack something together. Either removing the heatpump's ambient coil and putting in a plate heat exchanger for a CityMulti unit - our just going with a hydronic waterheater tank like what Sanco did and just use a water-to-water heatpump.
I thought of something like that when Matt talked about the system in a refrigerator moving heat out of the fridge and into the room. Why not move it into the water heater?
As much as I like the OP idea and the first comment here too, I think that a problem with doing this would be the safety risks and costs resulting from the amount of refrigerant needed, the related refrigerant plumbing throughout the house, and the refrigerant connections to each appliance, where these aren't a factor today because all of the units carry fully self-contained refrigerants from the factory, and can all be different as appliances are changed over time.
If the refrigerant was something like CO2 or a secondary fluid like water, maybe some of these problems would go away but other issues could arise from lack of refrigerant efficiency or not enough Delta Temperature to get the desired heat movement around the house.
As an example, in a place like Florida where heat has to be removed from a house year round, it would make sense to dump the heat from inside a house into DHW and any swimming pools, but somehow even this low hanging fruit isn't a standard thing to do.
I was thinking of wrapping the condenser of my mini fridge with copper tubing and looping it around the copper cold water inlet approaching my hot water tank. Should net me a few degrees of efficiency.
100%
I'm absolutely itching for one of these, but *also* able to do some small radiant heating, like a bathroom tile floor. No more resistance heat!
@@moi01887 Yeah, if one looks at a residential home, the biggest thermal design cosiderations are the envolpe + environment, the laundry, domestic water heating, cooking, bathrooms, occupancy, and all other electronic devices/appliances (heat generation sources).
Every watt/hr consumed generates about 3.41btu/hr of rejected heat into the surrounding environment.
Every person (at rest or low activity) rejects about 100watts/hr or 341btu/hr.
Cooking environments generate heat but also modify the ambeint humidity (cooking frequently emits steam), bathrooms do the same (baths+showers) - and both generate odors/gasses that must be ventilated for building health requiring the replacement of conditioned air with outside air that must be conditioned.
Laundry is a wierd special case where one adds water to a small volume which is absorbed by the contents (and flushed several times) and then typically heat is added to a separate volume to increase the evaporation of water fromt he contents to an air volume which is expelled from the building - requiring make-up air from the conditioned envelope around the appliance (which must be replaced by outside air that again must be conditioned).
I watched a talk a while back on solar thermal heating of a house in Alaska talking about the thermal-loss chain they want the thermal storage tank in the center of the home so that it can lose heat to the interior volume - rather than being in a basement or attic, or a utility closet with an exterior wall. This framing of thought really made me consider how the contents of a volume participate with the conditioning effort of the volume. At the time I had been dabbling in liquid-cooling gamning PCs and at work had been involved with chillers cooling GPUs for bench testing - where we had to think about how the heat rejection of the stand-alone chiller affectd the lab's whole-room HVAC system.
For me that's when the light went on. We need to capture heat as close to the source and direct it to a place where it can do additional useful work. This is like when a sewage treatment plant removes and digests solid waste creating CH4 (methane - the second most impactful greenhouse gas after saturated water vapor in air, even ahead of CO2), which the plant then burns in a co-generation plant to create a large portion of the power needed to run the plant (converting the worse CH4 into less harmful CO2).
The laundry thing for me is the next big challenge after water heating - here we have a system that consumes water and electricity and rejects waste water (both to the sewage/septic system and to the atmosphere) and heat. If you had a washer that recycled water, and a drier that reclaimed water (both liquid and evaporated) it would reduce the total water consumption of a house. A few manufacturers have started to make recycled water washing machines and ventless driers have been around for a while and are improving - but there is still an oportunity to integrate the washer drier water reclaimation and where the initial heat comes from and returns to. That's where tying it into a whole house HVAC&R system would show some benefit - and why I'm a fan of fully hydronic systems with heat pumps moving heat to and from zones, pushcing against (ideally) a ground source closed-loop thermal mass.
Those passive energy/heat-recovery ventillators get lot of the air change energy recovery for "free", but there is still a need to pull any remaining difference so that the exhaust air matches the outdoor ambient temp, and the intake air to match the average interior set-point. Any time there is a condensate drain, I'd want to again delay that effluent and have it do some useful work before it is drained away - this would be for example flushing a toilet.
Great video. Important content. Well structured and delivered. Videos like this move the needle!
Installed a Rheem heatpump water heater because of a previous video of yours. It cost about 600 more than the electric, according to my math I made that money back in under 18 months. But it's actually better than that because I'm using the AC in my garage way less now that the water heater is cooling/dehumidifying the space making it much more pleasant to work in during a good part of the year.
One thing I want to point out though is that a lot of ppl say things like "This wouldn't make sense because during the winter I'm paying to reheat the space" However, the units have resistance heat as well just like any old electric heater and most of the time a hybrid mode where the system decides what is most efficient. Thereby debunking the claim entirely.
Anyways, I just wanted to say thank you for that video because it's been 3 years now and as far as I'm concerned I'm making money every month with the savings not to mention a more pleasant garage!
Can your heat pump water heater be programmed to choose electric heating at a specific time of day? For example, here in Ontario we have time of use electricity pricing and at night can access electricity at CAD $2.8 cents/kwh. That would be a great time to switch to regular resistance heating.
@@Spp235. Yes, I just checked. The app that controls it has a schedule feature where you can set the mode and temp by time of day and day of week if you want
Disclaimer: I am a DIY guy with a background in engineering......
We are a family of 4 in Minnesota. I put in a 80 gallon Rheem Proterra with a 120 degree mixing valve. The heater is set at 140 degrees. It is installed in a mechanical room that is less than the 700 cubic foot limit. It is vented (not per Rheem requirements) into a furnace supply duct that goes up one floor to a register in front of a sliding glass door. Before the T into the supply venting, there is a spring loaded back draft damper to prevent back flow of air from the furnace to the heater. Just under the damper is a T that allows the water heater exhaust to dump into the furnace room when the furnace is on. The furnace supply and return ducts in the furnace room do have 4" adjustable dampers to exhange the water heater exhaust air.
Here are somethings I have noticed. Since the unit ducting does constriction from open down to a 6" duct, there is some additional energy usage but not enough to rip it out. Average run time of the heat pump is around 1.5 hours. No condensation is noted on the ducting except when trying to heat a full tank. The heat pump does not have enough CFM to hold the damper constantly open so we do hear it open and close when the pressure drops enough for it to fall closed.
Would I recommend this set up to other? Yes. The only change I would do is getting the back draft damper installed horizontally instead of vertically.
Living in MN also. Did you happen to install yourself or use a plumber? Trying to decide on that myself.
I'm ducting the intake of mine from above the shower in the basement so it removes the moisture and recovers the heat from the warm hot air rising from the shower. Plus it's guranteed to run when showering so the kids won't 'forget' to turn it on.
Was just looking into this, so glad I found out about the outdoor exchanger units!
Installed mine (Rheem) about 3yrs ago. Loving it. Puts out wuite a bit of cold air into my garage, pretty chilly in the winter. Also, during the winter, we always have to switch ours to high demand mode to get it to keep up. Air temp wherever you put it makes quite a bit of difference. Couldn’t really imagine this anywhere else but a garage.
Woah Sponsored by Energy Star! Gotta watch as I will need one soon.
I changed out my old electric hot water heater about a year ago for a new Rheem heat pump 55 gal tank. I keep in on heat pump only and it is in the basement and it helps cool my house when it is running which helps my A/C unit...been very efficient !! There is only 2 of us in the house but even when I get company, I still haven't ever run out of hot water ..cut my hot water bill by over 65%!!
I’m in the process of having to move and will find a place that needs to be remodeled. I you have convinced me to go with this system. As my goal is to be nearly off grid capable
That’s for a very informative video
Really enjoy. Tons of useful information. Great presentation skills. Answers all the questions a semi knowledgeable person would ask.
220, 221 whatever it takes.
lmfao, friggin crying, man what a great pull from the way back machine.
TY Mattt for the content and wasn’t expecting the belly laugh… good stuff.
Love that line! There’s a second occurrence where his wife says “.38, .39, whatever it took”. 😂
Matt, thanks for the video! Natural gas prices spiked over a year ago here in southeastern MI so it makes even more sense/cents (see what I did there😁) to switch over to a heat pump HW heater.
Like the little bit of comedy at the beginning.
Also, as usual, a very informative video.
Thank you.
Sponsored by energy star! Nice one!
I like Matt's unboxing technique.
About 2 months ago I removed a forced air gas hot water tank and had a AO Smith heat pump installed. My electric bill has not substantially changed. The blower fan on the forced air gas was about the same amount of electricity as the entire heat pump unit. It's amazing.
Edit needed
Have electric panels , so when I needed to replace the water heater I went with a 50 gal heat pump water heater in my garage ! I was blown away by the efficiency , about 4 to 5 times better than regular water heater and I got to cool my garage ! win-win all the way !!
That's great in the summer but would kind of suck in the winter here in Ohio. Welcome to my garage deep freeze!
awesome review Matt ! thank you. I'm keeping my mountain cabin all electric. Planning to replace a 60 gallon resistive water heater with heat pump. Keeping the laundry room location. We are adding 2 bedrooms to the house so I need to upsize the water heater capacity... Sounds like I might need to consider 220 version to keep the tank size reasonable...
I bought my Rheem 5 years ago and its going strong. I keep it in energy saving mode and run a schedule for morning, afternoon, and evening. It kicks on after someone uses water. I like the feature where I can turn it off while I'm away from home.
The kind of thorough, specific information I like as I shop for a new hot water heater. Or two. It's been a week...
I got an AO smith a few years ago and for the most part its amazing. I keep in a non conditioned laundry room here in North texas and during the summer it does cool the room off just a bit. And only uses like 400w of power for the short time that it runs. Only wish it heated the water slower to cool the room off more. But in any cold blast like we have right now i have to make sure to turn it to resistive only otherwise the room can easily get way colder than the other rooms and freeze the condensate drain line (like it currently is)
We installed an A O Smith 65 gallon heat pump water heater seven years ago, located in our garage. We are in South Florida and in the summer it takes the peak garage temperature down by 5 degrees, into the 80s range. It also dehumidifies to some degree. Our experience has been great. We have it in Hybrid Mode and it operates in the more efficient heat pump mode all the time. It is relatively quiet, and our water heating cost is one third of what it was with an electric resistance water heater. Certainly in a southern climate everyone should have one of these.
Would love to see an updated buyers guide to these in 2024 and a comparison breakdown!
Great video So much good info. I’m sending to my GC. And loved Mr Mom reference I quote that movie all the time
Awesome! Thank you!
I installed a richland (aka rheem) 50 gallon a few years ago. I added a removable duct to a new vent in the master bedroom to essentially cool our bedroom all summer long. It has definitely reduced our cooling and dehumidification needs, and with credits it paid for itself in two years. When it gets too cold, I remove the duct and let it cycle in the basement. Works great. However, the rheem econet app to control it is absolute garbage and I wish I had paid for a better unit because of that.
This 100%. Did the same basic thing and the app sucks a$$.
Yea that app sucks!!!
Not sure how relevant this is to anyone here, but I have noticed a few projects on RUclips that use boards to tie in to give stats (and I think maybe even control) to help avoid using the Rheem trash app.
Hear, hear! The Rheem app is a scam. In my early months with it, it worked most of the time for monitoring power and usage statistics (good numbers there), with frequent connection issues. But after a couple of software updates it was completely non-functional, and I happily went back to manual operation via keypad. How much tweaking, remote or otherwise, really makes sense with such an appliance anyway? I'm a fan of set-and-forget.
Which company would you go with, taking the app into account? Bonus points if it works with Home Assistant!
Great overview of these products!
Thanks for all the information
This is one of the favorite energy improvements. I consolidated two electric tanks (including one that was 40 years old). My hot water cost went to $10 per month from about $75-85/mo. Note that 3-4 degrees colder in my basement garage feels a lot colder than previous ambient. Next I plan to ditch my crawlspace dehumidifier and duct the HPHW through the adjacent wall.
Great information Matt! I installed a Rheem 50 gal in my garage and ran a short section of ducting into the HOT attic above the garage. During most of the year the attic is considerably warmer than the outside air and certainly warmer than the ambient air in the garage. Why not capture that hot air and turn it into hot water!? It's working and working very well indeed.
As to making the room cooler, I think it only actually happens when cold water is drawn into the tank and being heated from the room since that's the situation when the pump is net moving heat to the water. During the majority of times that water isn't being demanded the pump is just moving heat back to the water while it slowly leaks back out into the room. Plus the pump is consuming some energy in the process of moving refrigerant around - so a little wattage there.
I award infinity points for the Mr Mom reference! I still use that all the time.
I just bought one for my whole house renovation. New Jersey offers a $1,000 rebate on them, and I bought it on sale, so my final price was $450. The same as a crappy cheap resistance unit. I was going to go tankless, but this makes so much more economic sense!
If you put the tank in a network storage room in a house or office the cooling effect will benefit / offset the heat from the electronics - with our houses having more tech this might be a win win.
Bam! My thoughts exactly!!
Nice, a symbiotic relationship!
You have. A network storage room in your residence😳😂😁
@@johnwhite2576 Yes. We have an IT closet.
@johnwhite2576 who wants a dull home? Ill add a toaster 😊
Great video and education I needed.
Perfect timing!
After dealing with yet another basement prosumer dehumidifier dying I recently elected to replace my gas fired tank water heater with another inefficient gas fired tank. Having hot water in power outages is a nice creature comfort.
Glad to see manufacturers are making advancements on HPWH. Many of the existing reviews online talk about noise and premature failure. It’s hard to beat the simplicity and reliability of tank and flame, but admittedly there will be a time to change.
Our Rheem average 2.8kwh a day. My wife and daughter both enjoy long showers and it rarely runs out. It’s installed in an unconditioned basement
Great video. Very informative.
Great info, thanks Matt.
Like many in the Northeast I had an oil fired indirect water heater. All summer long I was heating up a couple hundred pounds of boiler then letting it cool off 2-3 times daily. Put in an 80 Gal Rheem two years ago, the savings are huge in my application and the performance is great.
I did the same about 12 yrs ago with similar savings.
did you install it yourself? Was it easy? seems easy.
@@AidanSkoyles I did. It’s essentially the same as installing any electric water heater, with the addition of a condensate drain. You do have to consider the air volume in the space you install it, the instructions have good discussion on that. They do also make some noise (think dishwasher level) so you need to think about placement relative to bedrooms as well. In my case it went into a large base,ent so neither of those was a concern.
@@kgdietz thanks for the thoughtful response.
I like that SANCO2. I have a crawl space and replacing my old one with this would fit great down there and will leave me extra room in the cottage bathroom!
In Michigan. Have Rheem ProTerra in basement mechanical room. Drains into sump. 3 years no problem. Love it. We are off gas with exception of the dryer. Heat pump dryer is our next upgrade.
Omitted from this video is a third type (mine holds 79 gallons)- Solar Assisted Heat Pump Water Heaters (SAHP). These use exterior panels that absorbs heat from the air vs "Solar Assisted" referring to photovoltaics. SAHPs do not cool the space they occupy and they don't produce condensate.
Love it Matt thanks! Still waiting for your review of the SanCO2 at your place (did they go back to that name?).
I worked on a 1978 Airtemp heat pump water heater for a co-worker. Then bought one, and it had been sitting around at a appliance sales place for a few years. I put it in my sister's home in Phoenix AZ, where it was installed in the living room, and helped to cool the home while making hot water.
So they are not new! Airtemp stopped making them when Chrysler CO went into bankruptcy back in 1979. It is about 13,000 Btu compressor in it, so puts out a lot of heat. The modern ones, such as the AO Smith, they only have about 5,000 Btu compressor, so a fairly slow heating mode unless in a really warm garage in the summer.
The Sanco2 has a 15,400 Btu/hr capacity and will happily extract heat from air at an ambient temperature of -26F. Yes, -26F. Thanks to the super effective CO2 refrigerant.
I've talked to SANCO2 and they approved putting the heat-pump in my outdoor shed and the tank in the tank closet where I have my gas HW heater now! I'm in a manufactured home in New England, no basement. They said the unheated shed (12x14) would have plenty of air flow. The shed is only 8' from the home and the lines can be buried.
Thanks for the info. I just ordered a Rheem brand new but out of box 50 gal with tri mode capability for $950 plus tax and $250 shipping. I think it’s a 240 v . Gonna try to install myself, should be able to
I have the American Standard Heat Pump Water Heater and the savings and efficiency is impressive!!!
I have the AO Smith one. Hefty entree price 😬 but the savings cant be ignored!
As far as temp concerns go, I ducted as much of the exhaust to my server cubby so now that space stays dry and cold :) its a win-win
We have a rheem 50gal heat pump in our laundry room and it is awesome.
I will say. It gets freaking cold in there.
Been waiting for these 120v models to come out for years. Now I have a house with a 65g, 240v Rheem so it's a bit late.
It works great for me. Gotta get one of those plug in anode rods one of these days.
I have a crazy story about an installer who completely messed up the install on mine. In the end I'm saving $40-$60/mo though.
I got a heat pump water heater in the California Bay Area, and followed a recommended installer for heat pump water heaters. They completely messed up the instillation to the point that it was plumed such that it physically could never deliver hot water when the recirculating pump was running. It took them >4 trips and me doing all of the plumbing diagrams and sizing for the system myself. They completely messed up basically every part of it, yet they claim to install plenty of heat pump water heaters. I spent some time with one of the technicians and found that he says they end up removing basically all of them and replacing with gigantic gas which can handle incompetence in terms of install and waste of hot water.
They installed the mixing valve improperly such that hot water could never flow through it when the recirculation pump was running at all, grossly undersized expansion tank, and also completely messed up the sizing of the recirculation pump. I'm guessing that this was the cause of many of the no heat or cold water calls they would get and then "revert" the "broken" water heater back to gas when it really was their instillation messing it up.
Now that I have my heat pump water heater set up, it is saving me between $40 and $60/month depending on the usage. I took the redesign of the system to add in a water meter at the input to the hot water heater, and several temperature sensors so I can measure the performance of the system. The heat pump appears to deliver on the claim of a COP of 4, however the recirculation pump uses significant heat to keep the pipes in the house warm. So far I have used 8037 gallons of hot water. That took 1.02MWh of electricity into the heat pump to put 4.03MWh of heat into the water inside the water heater. During usage, 2.84MWh was lost out of the insulation on the pipes in the house from the recirculating pump keeping hot water circulated. Finally, 1.19MWh of useful heat made its way of the hot water faucet. (All heat added is referenced to the cold water temperature entering the tank.)
I am decently happy with the Rheem unit we purchased except for their software. I have it following a schedule to avoid running during the expensive electricity hours of the day, and it will sometimes freeze and forget to update to the next schedule entry. It also once decided to just not heat the water and let the tank get cold until I reset it. It was perfectly aware that the tank was full of cold water and it needed to heat it, but somehow never decided to actually try to turn on any sort of heating element.
So I take it you run your recirc pump all the time?? Also sounds like the recirc issue was unrelated to the type of water heater.
@@johnwhite2576 For the recirc issue, yes it is unrelated to the type of water heater, but somehow these plumbers thought it was and completely tripped themselves up on it. IDK how they got it as wrong as they did.
For the time I have the recirculation pump on, I actually have run it with two algorithms. Originally I ran it with just a normal schedule which turned on at 6 am and off at about 10 pm, but that was extremely horrible effective COP (far below 1) and kept the heat pump part of the water heater on nearly 24/7. I quickly adjusted it to a much smarter algorithm which only runs the pump when it detects water flow on the water meter I installed. This is the algorithm used in the data I collected. I use a laser to read the smallest portion of the smallest dial on the water meter, and notice when over 20 ml / 0.6 fl oz of water is used. When it notices that over that amount of water is used, it turns on the recirculation pump until the return line temperature reads 32C/90f, and then it will shut off. This means the first time you turn on a faucet, it may be cold water, but the next time you turn it on, it will always be hot. This still ensures the pipes are warm-ish for a lot of the day as it seems like the average day causes about 20 activations, each for between 3 and 5 minutes, but is significantly less than running the pump on a normal schedule.
I installed several of these a few years in Atlanta one spring/summer a few years ago, all in garages. The customers loved them. Once winter hit, I had a ton of callbacks. They pull heat from the surrounding area, but once it gets around 40 or below there isn't much heat in the area for them to pull and they struggle and the cold air it gives off is dehumidified which turned the garages into meat locker cold. The cars had thick frost on the windshield. I had way too many complaints to recommend these again.
they're basically mini-air conditioners (as you drain the hot water out anyway), so best to install in the living space if you're in a generally hot climate.
I installed mine in my basement in a 600sq ft room and it lowers the temp in that room by about 10 degrees when it's being used a lot so that degree figure probably was in a massive basement
Our ~1,000sqft basement is noticeably colder this winter since we installed the HPHW.
We have a Rheem hybrid Heat pump water heater up in NY. We actually have a better experience with that over our previous gas. It absolutely takes longer to recover heat in heat pump only mode, and it does cool the basement but we keep our upstairs at 67F and I recorded the coolest it got in the basement at 61f after three showers on a 20f day outside. I found using the "energy saver" mode, which just uses both heating elements and heat pump, do use a bit more energy but I saw much smaller drops in temp in the basement.
Thank you for spreading the word about the benefits of heat pump water heaters, especially in cold climates. It sounds like the study you reference at 6:27 is from some of our research, but the reference link is missing from the description. Let us know if we can connect and help provide any other information for your audience.
Let’s see mini splits next!
Matt, any thoughts on air-to-water combi heat pumps? Currently have a gas tankless combi boiler (for both hydronic heat and DHW) and looking into the options for replacement. Seems like there are only a few options right now, and unsure as to whether it may be best to go with two separate systems instead.
We bought a 1st Gen Geospring in 2010 and the unit paid for itself in 4 years in electric bill savings, it dropped $30/month instantly. We live in TN and I left it in Heat Pump only for 9-10 months of the year and Hybrid in the cold months. It's located in the garage and the temp never drops below 45 in the winter, so it could technically run HP only year round, but it took longer to reheat in the morning.
The heat pump died in 2019 and it still functions as a purely resistive unit today. We'll replace it with an improved model Hybrid soon.
I just got the AO smith 900 series for 2k because it was on a sale at lowes. Going to take another 30% off from tax returns so the hybrid 80 gal will only cost me 1,400, that’s a fantastic deal. Also do not forget to install a thermal expansion tank, you need a 5gallon one for the 80 gall units.
Hi Matt, thanks for putting this together. I noticed you didn't include the Intellihot E1 (the only tankless HPWH I've heard of). Any experience with that?
Then there's those of us crossing our fingers hoping the water heater from 1998 keeps working.😂
As you continue to pay $40/mo to heat your water.
One caveat I'd add is warranty. Had a buddy of mine buy one ±5 years ago & it failed within the warranty period but the manufacturer would only pay for the part, not the labor to replace it, which unfortunately was rather expensive. I'll definitely be asking him which brand he had when I'm looking to buy one & be sure to avoid it.
The Sanco2 has A 10 year warranty on the heat pump and a 15 year warranty on the 43 and 83 gallon tank options.
@@bspanger1 _"Sanco2 has A 10 year warranty "_ -- yeah, but they are probably like the other manufacturers, warrantying only the parts after a year. So that wouldn't address the concern in the post you're replying to.
My own experience has been that not only is labor expensive, it's also a lot more difficult to even _find_ someone willing and able to work on the heat pump models.
Mine is currently in a leaky rubble foundation in Maine where it barely has required clearances, and I just recently switched it to hybrid mode for the winter... I do have a small heat pump zone down there off the multi zone that does the majority of my heating, that I run on a low temp to keep the floor from being cold and the water heater from working too hard. Power bill is pretty good considering, fully electric home, high power rates, and 135 year old home that is poorly air sealed.
Building a new home in New Mexico.. The mechanical room is separate from the living quarters. In winter, it'll "steal" heat that's dissipated by the radiant manifolds etc in the mechanical room. In summer, it'll take great advantage of added outdoor heat while also slightly cooling the mechanical room.
i was going to go with a tankless LP unit to replace my gas tank (0.60) but with the cost of operation is so much lower. might have to go this way.
Also have both in Landry room and works good
10dB is actually a 90% reduction in sound power (each 3dB represents a 50% drop).
I have a heat pump water heater in tropical Australia and have it in the laundry on the bottom floor and it makes it much nicer in there ( esp summer where it is 90f outside ) our winter day time temp is 70f I am glad i did it 3 years ago as replacment foe electric element
Wow, 90 C outside. Talk about boiling heat! 🤣
@@kgsails7102 lol too used to living in a metric country then attempting to convert
Great vid. i just wish there was a little more focus on the specific updates for 2024. the only thing i really gathered was they’re a bit quieter and a little more efficient.
“Killer New Tech” was the headline, that’s all.
i put mine in my solar and network room. Keeps it cool and pulls all the heat from the equipment.
Yeah it's basically an air conditioner.
Excellent!
I'm a new viewer having to prepare myself to possibly build something near San Antonio in a few years. You've been super helpful in helping figure out how we'll want to build different down there.
Some years back I was introduced to solar water heating tubes (or evacuated tube solar collectors) while touring the Solar Decathlon houses in Washington, DC. Do you have any experience with these? They were having to partially disassemble theirs because they were getting too much hot water in October in DC. I'd imagine July in Austin you'd only need 1-2 tubes to heat your water and a full rack for a polar vortex like the one that hit last month.
I would gently caution against rinsing the filters. On some manufactures models (rheem in particular) there are leak sensors that will trip if they get wet. I have had some clients rinse a filter and shake off and reinstall and it trips the sensor. So I tell my clients to rinse and then allow to dry completely. Bone dry
Aside from some sequence changes by Rheem and AO smith, we have had amazing luck with them and I would switch to one in a heart beat.