2024 Top 7 Heat Pump Water Heaters Compared
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- Опубликовано: 28 апр 2024
- Looking for a new heat pump water heater? Matt goes into detail about some of the newest and upcoming heat pump water heaters on the market from big name brands. Learn about the pros and cons of 7 heat pump water heaters in this episode. No sponsors, ALL NERDERY.
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Love these type of videos without sponsors. And checking out most of the manufacturers. Great job Matt.
Agree!
Matt, the way the inverter model would work is that if the compressor isn’t running at maximum the efficiency will be higher since then the coils are oversized. Turbo mode just runs it at the highest speed it can handle which isn’t nearly as efficient. It’s like how a mini split type A/C is 40% more efficient running in that let’s say, 20-60% or 80% range, then is less efficient at it’s 100% output rating. Fan speed on the evaporator side makes an efficiency difference also.
We have an A.O smith hybrid water heater (required a 221v connection 🙂) that I installed myself about 5 years ago to replace a leaky gas unit. It's a 50 gallon (46 actual) in a 2 person household and has been rock solid. It has run on econ mode for all but one week when I flipped it to hybrid when we had several houseguests. It does cool down the basement in the winter to the extent I added a door to close off the finished half (when I work from home) for comfort. The dehumidification in the summer is a great benefit.
As a careful and practiced DIYer, I am disappointed that the American made AeroTherm units are not available direct to consumers.
We have the same one and only switch the Electric/Hybrid with guests or if we are in a freeze here in Texas. We don't want it competing with our outdated heat pump for the home. The laundry room it is in is VERY cold in comparison to the rest of the house.
@travelfeet While it does draw ambient heat from your basement to warm your water, you can at least vent the resulting cold air outside in the winter time and keep the cool air in the summer time. Best of both worlds! There's even a $20 device that already can do this for you. Just look up "Deflecto Dryer Heat Diverter"
I’ve an 80 gallon Rheem in my basement in New Hampshire. During the winter, it drives the basement down to about 50°F, which is fine unless we have guests. Then, the app comes out and I switch it over to electric resistive mode which is quiet and doesn’t cool the area down. Yes, it uses literally 3× as much energy but the space becomes livable. In the summer, it keeps the basement cool and dry but is still a bit noisy.
I’m in NH as well. We currently only use our basement for storage but I need to run a dehumidifier year round (certainly less so in the winter). Does your unit replace the need for a dehumidifier?
@@danielbeadle4384
Yes the previous owner commented on how much better it smells. The heat is poor man’s geothermal as the basement has a natural ‘warmth’ if 52° can be called warmth.
I have a Rheem 50 gallon HPWH in my basement in VA that definitely cools the basement “work room” area where it’s located. I have a Mitsubishi 9K BTU air to air mini split in the finished side that keeps the rest of the basement warm and offsets the cooling from the water heater. One thing to note is that the water heater doesn’t produce much condensate (doesn’t provide much dehumidification) unless the humidity is close to 60%. I still need to run a dedicated dehumidifier.
How cold is the air coming out of it? Here in California during the super hot summer this sounds like a win win.
@@danielbeadle4384
I also live in NH and the heat pump hot water heater does cool the room down in the winter but the basement no longer needs dehumidifying in the summer....so the dehumidifier went out along with its electric bill. Heat pump AC/Heat in the rest of the house. BTW Solar is also on the house so we produce enough year round and only pay a "supply" fee to our electric provider of about $13 a month.
I have the Rheem 50G heatpump tank (240v), and so far, I've only had 1 scenario where I ran out of water. My plumber was fixing another, unrelated plumbing issue, and ran my hot water at full blast for almost 1/2hr, while we had a dishwasher, and shower running. We ran out of hot water. This is the only time its happened. For those who complain about a cold basement in the winter, install a vent kit for your exhaust side. I did this on my tank, with a flap that I can redirect the cold air inside in the summer, and outside during the winter. It only drops the temps in that room by 1-2'c during the winter. During the summer, it helps reduce my cooling load on my heat pump hvac unit.
The SanCO2 is the quietest HPWH at 37 decibels. We installed a SanCO2 83 gal system in the garage with the heat pump hanging on the wall next to the tank to keep pipe runs short, cools the garage and the coils stay clean. It replaced a gas water heater and we have hotter water and more of it. It's a great system.
Good idea. I need to look into that. My problem with the SANCO2 is that I don't have anywhere "hidden" to put the actual heat pump, but the garage could work.
That sounds awesome! Would not have thought you could wall mount that "outside" unit, but if it is only 37 decibels then keeping it in the garage makes way more sense. How much does it weigh and what kind of ceiling height do you think would be required to mount it over an 83 gallon tank?
@@default7950 The HP weighs 108 lbs so it takes 2 to lift. HP and tank must be at least two feet horizontally apart, and due to pipe runs the HP can't be directly over the tank. The 83 gal tank is 69" tall. Although quiet, when mounted on drywall w/o insulation, the HP transmits a slight vibration to the interior when running (like a air handler in the attic but without the sound). Check out my article with a picture of my set up - search kent-wimmer-bringing-the-heat-as-part-of-the-clean-energy-generation.
It’s twice as much $ as Rheem
@@hickorydragon8114 Yes it is, but I am willing to take the gamble that it will last twice as long and require less maintenance and service over its life. Ultimately my decision balanced on I could not find any plumber or HVAC company in my city. You have to use a Rheem technician to service a Rheem HPWH requiring a service call from a couple of hours away. Plus I will get the full $2000 tax credit whereas if I had installed a Rheem my tax credit would have been half of reducing the effective cost difference.
Would love to see this same video for mini split heat pump air conditioners
I installed one in a friends place in his basement. He operates a pretty hefty home network, as well as a variety of smart devices from a small room which would get pretty hot. We ran a supply and return duct from that networking closet to the utility room where the new water heater was at. The network room now is in the low 60s which extends the life of the hardware, makes them more efficient, and the water heater also runs more efficiently.
Perfect pairing!
Which one or brand & model? I'm interested in replacing the one in my Florida garage to cool off garage...
I have a Rheem 50 gallon 3.55 efficiency. I’d buy it all over again. Everyone house I’ve lived in I’ve ran out of hot water many times! The design of this water is excellent in that we never run out of hot water. I run it at 125 degrees in heat pump mode and we can do 2 long showers at the same time no problem. I only had it happen once, but one time I accidentally had the washer, dishwasher, and shower going at the same time. I ran out of hot, but it kicked on the elements and recovered the hot while I was showering. I found that incredible.
So do you never run out of hot water or has it happened? 🙄
Standard water heater or hybrid ??
The CO2 in the sanco will not degrade like other refrigerants at the high heat and pressures sustained at the outlet of the compressor. So therefore they can increase the compression ratio without much risk to get hotter temps.
Man I love this stuff. Thanks for the comparisons!
In ultra low energy houses (like passive houses), the Sanden can also be used as a heat plant. This is a manufacturer supporter setup, and requires a Taco X-Block (which adds a few bucks). The Gen3 Sanden units make water up to 175F, but maybe the gen4 units only go to 150F.
In-laws have a standard combined unit, and over Christmas with lots of guests the shroud over the compressor (top of tank) had so much condensation that it would run down the tank and trigger the automatic leak shut-off valve. Had to reset it multiple times.
This is correct in some cases. The current generation Sanco2 produces hot water at 145-150F, and Eco2 Systems only supports use of a Taco X-Block in limited situations, where the minimum winter design temperature is 25F. Under these conditions, a heating load of between 8,000-10,000 btu/hr is supported if used in combination with DHW.
I just had the AO HPTS-50 installed, and I can confirm that it is whisper quiet. I had heard that "heat pump water heaters are noisy" and saw a db test of the AO at 60db. So I paid extra to move my water heater out of the house into the garage--and it was absolutely not necessary. Standing right next to it, I could hardly hear it and my hearing is excellent. I can recommend this brand and model.
Watching you since you were in the low 30K subscribers. I would love if you would time stamp your videos. It would making rewatching things that pertain to people much easier to find it. Keep up the great work!
Hey Matt, I use the Rheem 240v Proterra 50Gal in Ottawa, Canada. I use it to heat my small house thru in-floor hydronic and provide hot water and no issues with supply from the elements in the winter and in the summer I switch to Heat pump mode to get free AC. Electricity rates here are pretty good and it should cost me approximately 600$/year for heat and hot water.
Thanks for a full follow-up video without a sponsorship, not that the other one was bad it's just nice to know there's no money
Wouldn't mind seeing a deep dive into geothermal heat pumps for both heating and domestic hot water.
Its identical, with the only difference being in stead of AIR being blown across its heat exchangers, it is pumped water from the ground.
@@w8stral other than it being a completely different piece of equipment with it's own set of considerations that are not exactly easy for an uninitiated home owner to research, yeah, identical...
Just working in reverse, identical machines otherwise @@chaseweeks2708
Indeed, either geothermal and regular air based heatpumps. If you have a new construction, I'd think combining hot water + water based underfloor heating via a single heat pump assembly is the way to go. And this is the way how things are done in high energy efficiency places like Germany these days. Would love to hear the considerations by Matt and what systems he would recommend that are available in the US.
The tricky part of geothermal is planning for the recharge rate - once you pull the heat out of the ground coil, how long does that heat take to replace? Varies with different soil conditions (clay vs sand/loam etc. and groundwater content)
Watching this as i refill my old water tank after cleaning it out and changing the elements 😋
I'm staying away from LG. They've had issues with their compressors on fridges and are still facing lawsuits about it even after a settlement in 2018, so I'm worried they are cutting corners or that this isn't tech that they're good at producing.
Pretty sure it was just the “linear “ ones that had issues
You’re right about the refrigerator issues, but LG makes good mini splits and heat pumps, I hope this is more related to their AC products but why take the chance I guess?
I have their washtower combo washer and dryer and have no complaints, works flawlessly.
I've had a Rheem 240v for 3+ years. Outstanding tech support - which is needed as most repair companies know nothing about these units. I recommend a 120V unit if you're in an area subject to power outages because it's easy to find a generator to power a 120v. One advantage I suspect most units have (including Rheem) is the ability to schedule heating times to correspond to lower power rates. However, the Rheems EcoNet app needs a makeover. The app is laggy, sometimes will not connect to the heater, and occasionally simply forgets to return to the scheduled program after any change (meaning no hot water).
They just came out with a new app a few days ago. It’s seems a lot better now
@@jepito29 App store seems to say Rheem EcoNet 6.1.1, 3 weeks ago. What app are you using?
Thanks for the info Matt! 😃👍🏼👊🏼
In Austin Texas you should have gone with a unit that puts the refrigerated air indoors. In Minnesota that sanCo2 would be great.
Here in Europe some of the really good monoblock Air to Water Heat pumps can not only heat water for your radiators but also directly heat DHW without a tank/buffer etc. Just heat on demand. Good stuff.
I'm sure you have talked about it before but the location of the install is very important. If it's in your hall closet making noise, or fighting against your furnace/heat source you have to take that into account. The split unit makes a lot of sense both for noise and for separation from your interior temp.
Did not see the links you mentioned? Would also love to see a sheet with the Sunday specs you were displaying on screen ....
I like the 120V versions for saving electric panel Amps and breaker spaces to save panel space for more electrification projects like heat pumps and EVs. The other new panel savers are the new fast labor saving heat pump versions of "one and done" combo washer /dryer machines that just plug in there the washer was. This frees up the dryer space for better uses.
I installed a RHEEM heat pump water heater back about 5-6 years ago. Thing just works and never has given me any issue. It's in my basement in Maine and it drops the basement about 5-8 degrees vs. not running. By no means the end of the world.
I also lead a large portion of the pumped thermal energy storage technology which is a partnership between Westinghouse and Echogen Power Systems. We use supercritical CO2 to pump heat from freezing to around 350C (662F) with a COP around 2. It's an amazing technology.
The more CO2, the better. Plants need it, don't let anyone demonize Carbon!
Increasing CO2 is greening the planet@@abel4776
@@abel4776 Forget CO2, I'm worried there's a CO leak in your house.
@@dosadoodle Well yes, we don't want that either, just as how we don't want to breathe water.
I real like 👍 the split unit I’m north of Chicago. Fixing my home for resale.
I have been using the AO Smith for several years now. My plumber said to be on the lookout for some recent product failures but I haven't had that experience. I like to use them in a conditioned crawl space where there is always going to be a HVAC supply register that provides heat. The other nice feature is that the heat pump has a dehumidification effect. I do wonder about issues with scale.
We've had the Bradford White 65gal unit for almost three years here in New Hampshire. We've spent almost $900 on service calls (e.g. $500 in labor to diagnose and replace the controller board, which died under warranty). We have to use hybrid mode to speed up recovery time, so we are using much more electricity than expected (300+ kWh in December and January). And even in hybrid mode we sometimes run out of hot water. I estimate that we're saving about $400/year compared to the propane water heater we had previously, but especially considering the service issues it's unlikely the unit will pay for itself. I hope that other people's experience has been better.
We have a GE Hybrid that is a few years old. About four years ago, it started with the filter alarm. After some research, I found that this a common problem with no real filter issues. Apparently, there is a resistor in the control board that goes bad. I am hoping the upgrade recognized and corrected this issue.
The SanCo2 looks like a promising water heater for me 5b, East Coast Canada (growing zone) where the 99% temperature is > -20C (-4F). This type of heat pump would also be GREAT for underfloor heating. I look forward to more info. on this technology.
Garbage, outdated tech. It gives you only 50 percent of nominal capacity in cold climate . LG is coming with a decent water heater as well keep eye on Gree air to water heat pumps for cold climate. They are the leader in tech now
Just wait till you see how much money it costs. Compare its monthly cost against an on demand unit and then how long it’s going to take to recoup that extra costs.
@@TheAngryTT How much? The 80 gallon proterra units go for $3k CAD. Nice to have the simplicity of electric install (no chimney / no gas / no burners / no gas valve ). Not sure how long to expect a compressor to last though. Was happy to hear that Matt still has a proterra going from 2010?
One of the most important qualities of these is how they interface with your solar! Please include that in analysis.
Great video. Would be nice to compare pricing!
I still have the gen 1 GE GeoSpring. In the market to replace it. Thanks for the update.
We have an AOSmith heat pump water heater and it is 220V, not 110V. Ours is a couple of years old. Our unit was replaced under warranty due to a coolant leak. We will not get a LOWE's install done, lots of extra overhead. AOSmith warranty support was great.
Good luck when the warranty ends and trying to find someone to repair/ service. This is what has happened to me and my GE heat pump water heater.
Are you sure that the AO Smith model comes with an integrated mixing valve? I looked up the user manual for both the 120 & 240 volt models and it appears to advise the installer to add one. No mention of "integrated mixing valve" anywhere.
I had the exact same question, for the exact same reasons as you. This is the second video/article that references a mixing valve for the AO Smith. I contacted AO Smith support to confirm, and I sent them a link to the first article that referenced the mixing valve. Their response was, no, it does NOT come with a mixing valve. HOWEVER, elsewhere in the manual for troubleshooting/maintenance there is a reference to a "smart valve". I asked AO Smith support what this smart valve was supposed to do. I haven't received a response yet. And if you look at the parts list, this "smart valve" does indeed seem to form a bridge between the cold inlet and hot outlet. I don't think the support person really knew what they were talking about. And I do believe the mixing valve is indeed built-in. These 120v models are pretty new, so there may be some communication/training issues in their support group.
A standard water heater 240v 4500 watt elements will work fine on a small 120v generator, now you will have to do a little moving of wires, but at 120v it will only pull 1125 watts/9.4 amps. Sure, it will take longer to heat, but it works. Also a 5500 watt element works fine on a small 120v generator, it would pull 1375 watts or 11.46 amps
I do this during extended outages, even though I have a 8kW 120/240V generator. The 4,500W draw of the element uses too much of the generator output for connivence, so by moving it to 120V it drops the draw to 1100W.
@@matthewbeasley7765 If you are feeding the generator to the main panel, then it is easy to just move 1 wire off the breaker for the water heater to the neutral. I have had master electricians say this won't work, telling me things like it would pull 2x the current. Sadly I guess they never learned Ohm's law.
@@stevem1081 That's exactly what I do.
Matt do you know if they make a heat pump furnace/air conditioner that can connect to a water heater. Your split unit is taking warm air from outside to heat your water and your heat pump air conditioner is take hot air from your home and putting it outside. They should make one unit to combine these two things.
Samsung sells them in Asia and Europe but not in North America yet.
When a heat pump water heater is in the conditioned space, it's doing just that - outputting cooler air into the conditioned space. This reduces the overall cooling load for the house.
@@markwalker3880 yes I understand all that but think of it this way. The outside temperature is 90 and your house is being air conditioned to say 70. Now the water heater is using 70 degree temps to heat the water and cooling the space say down another 5 degrees. Now imagine using the warm air from your air conditioner which is probably 90 degrees plus outside. This would save a lot of energy for your hot water heater and probably not bring the space around it down so much.
I would love to know your opinion about using a heat pump unit and a recirculating pump with it. I have a situation that because my pipes are underneath my foundation and the distance that the water needs to travel. My recirculating pump on my tankless high efficiency, gas water heater is almost always on when we're awake. If I were to switch to a heat pump system, would that be a problem with the recirculating pump running for that long?..
Shouldn't be an issue. We have the same setup with a recirculating pump and a heat pump water heater. A hot water tank is a hot water tank. The difference is just in how the water gets heated. No difference when getting distributed.
I'd think a heat pump would be superior to a tankless system. (1) Heating water takes a lot of energy. Storing it not so much. (2) Moving heat takes far less energy than generating it.
I’ve got a Reem proterra 240 volt set at 120 degrees on energy saving mode incoming water 40 degrees and basement temperature at 60 degrees. For 2 people it is about $6.00 a month for hot water with 60 gal tank
Great video Matt. We have (2) 50 gal Rheem gas water heaters that I want to proactively replace as they’re going on 12 years old. Trying to figure out if we do (2) nat gas 50 gallon water heaters, or one 80 gallon heat pump water heater. This is helpful for me to try and figure out the best path forward. Nat gas here in the northern Atlanta burbs is $.49/therm, and electric is $.07/kW
Why not replace just one of the gas units with a heat pump, in line? Keep the first in heat pump only mode on the first, at a low temp, then use natural gas to boost to full temp. You'll have hot water in a power outage. Just clean out the tanks, gas heaters can last a long time with good maintenance. Mine is 30+ years old.
If you have gas heat go with a tankless gas unit. Get a Rinnai or Navien
Did you notice the "GAS connection ready" on Rheem HPWH in the video? I have to learn how it works. Anyway, I also like my Rinnai tankless.
Great information
Wondering about the stiebel eltron model which is missing from this lineup. Also, wondering if any of these, besides the Rheem, can be ducted when installed in small spaces. I am about to build a house with very limited space and I think the ducting option for the rheem is a big deal.
We bought the 220E Accelera. I will do a video on my channel when we install.
Tempering valves can fitted to any heater / boiler, we fit them in Water Solar retrofit setups all the time
Lol HDMI port at water heater!!
Great comparison Matt 👏
You only mentioned the minimum operating temperature on three of the units I think. Do the other models work down to that fairly standard 37/38°F temp? (Excluding the Sanco2 because it is special.) My current electric water heater is a lowboy in my crawlspace and on its last legs so I'm looking at whether or not i can install a HPWH in my attached garage or if I should move it inside. My garage has gotten below 38°F for about 6 days this winter during the polar vortex so I would need a model with backup elements but I'm thinking the garage might still work.
What is the "gas conversion ready" on Rheem (yellow sticker note)???
A Wi-Fi connected feature is important to me to support my home automations.
When I set my thermostat to vacation mode, my water heater automatically gets set to vacation mode as well.
When I have guests visiting, the water heater automatically increases its temperature.
When we are running low on hot water and someone enters the bathroom, Alexa will politely announce that we're running low on hot water and to please wait before taking a shower.
Once I switch to a hybrid heat pump, I will automatically switch between heating modes based on the temperature in the basement and other factors.
Wi-Fi is about more than just the iPhone app!
Great points.. although I had to laugh at the Alexa comment. And that you added the adjective "politely". lol. How does Alexa know someone is entering a bathroom?? o.O
I have a "50 gallon" rheem which is actually 46gallons. I put a mixing valve on it. Running at 140 I was able to get about 110Gallons out of it before it ran cold. Enough to fill a 6' jacuzzi tub 2x and take a shower. Also my wi-fi works perfectly well from the basement to the receiver on the 2nd floor. I hate wifi, but its actually handy I can turn it off remotely, and it notifies me if there's a leak or anything on the phone in real time, plus i see how much energy I've used.
Anything past 120F and scale builds up at the bottom of the tank, thereby making a 50 gal tank a 40gal upon heating, and then 30gal, and so on, over time. Heating a foot high of minerals before heat touches water is no good!
I have the same and have a mixing valve just haven't installed it yet.
Man, your videos sure give me dejavu
I thought I was having a stroke.
The Aerotherm has the exact same filter setup, connections, controls and "quick start" guide as my old GE; even the wording is the GE font. 🤔 If it's a rebranding of the old GE that's not a bad thing - my old GE heat pump is still going strong after 12 years.
I believe that an Aerotherm electric unit was featured on this week's "Ask this Old House" although they didn't mention the name (but I could see the name on the unit).
I put my old senville minisplit in my basement (12000btu) and it sits very close to my heat pump hot water heater so i figure i'm getting heat from outside to heat my water in some ways. Also helps keep the basement warmer...last winter the basement was getting too cold because the water heater running constantly removing heat. This is in Wisconsin.
I don't get the logic of the split unit - you get FREE A/C and a FREE dehumidifier if you put the unit in your garage or, better yet, the conditioned part of the house. I have one of the older GE units, and whenever it is running it is essentially like running a small window AC unit. That is a whole lot of free A/C. In the winter you do end up making the furnace work a little harder, but unless you have electric resistance heat you are still saving a ton of money with these things even in the winter. Maybe if you live in Minnesota or Maine you'd want an outdoor unit, but for most people in the U.S. it is better to have it inside.
This past summer, I installed a SANCO2 HPWH in my garage hanging the heat pump on the wall next to the tank. It works wonderfully and cools the unconditioned garage when it runs.
it depends on your climate. in a hot climate the indoor ones are great. in a cold climate your water heating is basically powered by the hvac system, so it may end up effectively being a very expensive gas hot water.. however you may still want an indoor unit due to freezing (water unit he has there) or use a proper split that doesn't use water on the outdoor unit.
the splits are more suited to milder areas.
I wonder if anyone has replaced a gable attic fan with the mini split fan end?
@@tweake7175 Yes. I live in Florida which makes it more efficient to run.
I could see that being useful in the north. Our basements get really cold and dry during winter... the last thing I need is is more cooling and dehum during that time. But yeah during the summer that would be great to have.
I currently have the GE GeoSpring 80 gal and it’s been flawless since 2017. Unfortunately GE ceased production and sold its manufacturing equipment to Bradford White. So Bradford white water heaters are essentially GeoSpring OEM. In fact, Bradford is contracted to service old GeoSpring units. FYI
I do tons of heat pumps with our solar projects. Have them in both my houses (one in FL one at 7000’ in colorado) and would never consider anything else personally
I still wanna see if you can get them to all disclose tank thickness and what their liner is made from.
Split units (with exterior unit and interior unit) like SunCO2 are the best !!!
You should check out the Chiltrix heat pump. It provides domestic hot water but also hydronic heating and cooling capabilities, and it's crazy efficient!
Can you need a comparison on the 2 in1 washer dryer hear pumps too!
He did a heat pump dryer that he has at his house - a Miele heat pump dryer. I have the same one and it’s great.
@matthelms4167 I know of the Miele but is a bit small at 4.2 cf. I'm leaning toward the ge 4.8 all in one at this time. I was leaning to a different water heater until he just showed me the American standard! Think I like the warranties there....seems cheaper then the one I was looking st too!
Yes. Two new good ones to review now on market - one from GE and another from LG.
@walternlivingston8607 oh yeah...just learned of the lg one. Bigger size but uses more power per load then the ge! LG has a physically smaller heat pump and only based on the 1 video I watched has probably a small resistance heater as well. That was only guessed by the guy that took the lg apart but makes sense as the lg pulls twice the kwh per load as the ge.
I have a large house but the basement ceiling clearance is low. Does anyone know if any of these 80 gallon models have the compressor maintenance and filter access from the side of the unit, rather than the top? (Ignoring SANCO2, way too expensive unfortunately) For example, to access the compressor on some of these models you have to lift the top housing upwards, which I wouldn’t have enough clearance to do.
It would be good to hear which of these have a ducting kit available. My thought is to place a partial rack of computers, network gear, and data storage (NAS) in a closet with a high MERV intake air filter (to keep dust out of equipment), then duct the exhaust air through the HPWH and have the exhaust from the HPWH in the direction of a return air for the HVAC. I’m in North Texas with a 5-ton WaterFurnace Series 7 handling 3700 sq. ft. in 5 zones flawlessly since 2013, short of a warranty-replaced coil in 2019. Even without the IT equipment to provide heat to an HPWH, the ability to duct out to a more robust air intake filter may be a broad consideration, especially to be able to install into a smaller space.
208 is often found in large buildings. It's the wye voltage on 240 volt three phase. What is wye voltage? It's the voltage between any two of the three phases, with neutral in the middle. Each phase gives 120 to neutral. So you end up with a 120/208 volt panel.
@buildshow Where in the world do I find the LG APHWC501M 50-gal model? None of the big box stores seem to carry it and I can't even find it at any of the other major suppliers. Suggestions?
Hey Matt: Great video...this is definitely on my bucket list. Here in SoCal, I've got a Bradford White that my HVAC friend installed for me years ago after going two GE models that rendered themselves permanently broke within hours of install (their enclosed vent system that used a glass fuse for protection). It is a natural gas water heater. The first thing that I questioned was the fact you probably provided the yellow sticker annual costs in each summary: could you PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE include at what kWh that is based on? This is one of my biggest beefs with showing overall costs...here in SoCal, we pay anywhere from $0.37 to $0.54 per kWh for electric (We're on a NEM 2.0 solar plan- since we installed ours it's even worse). I know you really can't compare Gas therm prices to kWh prices very well, but I can if I knew what the basis of the costs provided were!
Great comparison. I have narrowed down to the Bradford White and the Rheem to replace my 8-year-old State (from builder) electric water heater. Can you provide the annual Energy Guide cost and the noise level for both on the 55 gal? Any suggestions on which would be a better unit for Delaware? Thanks.
Would the one with outside compressor freeze in cold climates. Or be more efficient getting warmer air from indoor?
That one depends on your local climate. It has a resistance element I. It as well. But idk how it performs in cold weather.
Oops. Spoke way too soon. It will work very well in cold weather.
The Sanco2 has several freeze protection features. The cold climate model has a drain pan heater to prevent frozen condensate buildup, but it does not have a backup element otherwise. When it detects that the water temperature at the heat pump unit has fallen below 39F, it turns on to draw water from the tank to flush the cold water out of the exterior piping. It also has integrated terminals for heat trace tape, and optional thermomechanical drain down valves that will open when the water temperature in the piping falls below 35F in the case of a power outage. It has an advertised operating ambient temperature range of -26F to 114F.
Have you ever thought about using ground heat/thermal heat in some of your constructions?
With the heat pump on top how do you change the sacrificial anode?
On my Rheem once you remove the sheet metal lid it is accessible with a socket and extension .
The Bradford White model matches my GE model in every way from 2014.
Could you post some links to these units?
I am doing some due diligence for heat pump water heater, the Sanco2 system will fit into my basement situation. Is there anyone know that the Sanco2 system need an anode rod and yearly maintenance? thanks.
Could you put the SANCO compressor in the basement and the tank in the mechanical room?
I was wondering the same thing.
Yes you can. The heat pump unit requires about 600 Cu. Ft. for sufficient airflow, 400 Cu. Ft. if the space is vented. The tank can be up to 66 feet away, with up to 23 feet of vertical separation.
@@bspanger1 The room would be cool and dry, correct? Could you put it in a "modern root cellar" where you could store food, wine, etc? Would you get a fairly constant temperature, or would it go up and down as showering would tend to take place at the beginning and/or end of the day?
@@billvojtech5686 The heat pump unit will produce a cooling and dehumidifying effect as it extracts heat from the room. However, in a typical residential installation, depending on your DHW usage, the heat pump will only run 2.5 to 4.5 hours/day or so. There is a feature which would allow you to specify blockout times, so you can have it run when you wish, but if you use this feature, you'd have to design the runtime windows and tank size to ensure that the tank had sufficient hot water when needed. In any case, the cooling effect would only be while the unit was running, and would produce a maximum of 15,400 btu/hr of cooling.
Hey Matt, I have a short tank in my attic-is there any reason why I couldn't buy the SANCO2 and then just have the "outdoor unit" in my attic? Seems like it would still typically do better up there as the attic is always warmer than the outside.
Matt noise db on Bradford white??
Did you store hotter water in the tank and use a mixing valve to send 'more comfortable' hot water to the house? I saw on another Sanco video that you can store hotter temp water and step the temp down as it comes out of the tank using a mixing valve so you effectively get more hot water out of your tank. I'm in Houston
Are there present options to buy a separate heat pump for the water heater or the possibility to hook up an existing water heater to an existing heat pump with a conversion kit of some kind?
I like this idea, but I expect you'd never get warranty coverage for the new half of that kind of set-up. I doubt that the tank half has any impact on the functioning of the heating half, but that no warranty approach seems standard whenever tying the new thing to the old thing. The manufacturing cost of the tank is likely a small part of the cost of a new unit, and it seems to me that only recently have tanks been insulated well enough that it wouldn't be worth an upgrade to a new better insulated tank. I'd like to see something like the Sanco unit that you can buy separately from the inside tank, especially since the outside unit is the same for all of their models. I know I have seen independent hot water storage tanks intended to be used with a hydronic home heating boiler/system that also produces domestic hot water, so the industry is almost there if they pull these pieces together.
There was a company that was featured on This Old House with that exact setup. I believe the system worked very well, the issue was with energy rebates not applying for some reason.
I’m on my 3rd Rheem hybrid heater, the first 2 were replaced under warranty because of refrigerant leaks in less than 1 year. This third one I’ve had for 1.5 years and I’m starting to get a frozen coil, so this one is leaking too
Probably just a bad sensor. Unlikely a leak would cause it to ice up
That's not what I wanted to hear. You have the proterra unit? How can you tell the coil is frozen?
You can look right through the top where the air filter is and see the evaporator coil, eev, and compressor. I have the proterra model, it’s the same refrigerant components as the lower models, you just get the leak sensor and WiFi with the proterra.
I have a Richmond (sold Menards and made by Rheem) and haven't had any issues (minus it being a bit noisy). Maybe something in your environment is causing issues?
I would love to have the Sanco, but I did the math, at the current use on my standard water heater now, Just the cost of Sanco unit would take me 111 years to use that much energy, at my age, I'll be lucky to be here for 20 more years.
I got one of the last GeoSprings before GE threw in the towel in 2016. They had moved manufacturing back to the US (TX I believe), but most had been made overseas and the quality control had been atrocious. People were cursing GeoSpring up and down because they were arriving broken, customer has no hot water, and GE wants to send parts on the slow boat. I took a gamble buying it, but I knew that GE was trying to turn it around. And turn it around they did--that unit was bulletproof and worked as well as any heat pump water heater. Unfortunately, my lazy plumber let me get talked out of replacing the anode (I have high mineral content slightly acidic water) because he "didn't think it needs it." So, after 7 years, it rusted out the bottom. I am confident that had I kicked my plumber to the curb and gotten someone to replace the anode before that last year, I'd still be running it. I'm sure GE will be fine. I think the only reason they left was because they couldn't escape the bad reputation they had acquired from the first couple of years.
GE actually sold it all to Bradford White and they call them AeroTherm now. They were always made in the US but when GE sold they moved manufacturing from Illinois to Michigan. Same machine, different name and color but the same Geospring. Of course Bradford White is known for quality and mine has been excellent for 2+ years now in heat pump only mode.
GE too busy adopting DEI policies and pushing WEF Green agendas. Big conglomerates are a big no no. Look into CorroProtec powered anodes.
Do any HPWH have a coil in them to tie in a wood boiler?
I've never seen one, but lots of people have a pre heat set-up for incoming water they set up on their own. The water heater doesn't care what happens to the water before it comes into the tank.
you should tell us what each unit sells for
Prices vary around the US. You'll have to check your own local pricing and availability.
Looks like most of these aren't even available at retail...
I want to see a home where they use ground source (geothermal) for heating, cooling, and hot water.
The complex piece of this being obviously summertime cooling with hot water.
It seems like a single geothermal loop could be used with multiple pumps for this purpose but information is hard to find.
WaterFurnace has a domestic hot water loop on my Series7, although I have yet to hook it up to any water heaters. They also have a standalone unit which only does domestic water heating from a ground-source loop.
If Rheem put that on the 240v model I would buy one right now. That would nearly eliminate the elements but still have the elements as back up.
Rheem offers 4 tank sizes of 240V (dedicated 240V circuits and that have standard 30 Amp models (~4600 watts) and 15Amp versions (~2300 Watts) for saving panel Amps ) and 120V models (shared 120V circuits at ~400 watts). They even offer two sizes of 120V dedicated circuit models (bigger compressor power ~800 watts).
AO Smith has been around as a company since 1874. Pretty great solid brand.
I have well water and natural gas heat and water. Im getting solar (14,500kwh system, my avg. useage was 9,300kwh last year) My gas bill was $580 this month and im eventually planning on taking advantage of the Mass Save program for efficiency upgrades. If i convert my existing 50gal tank water heater, would these heat pump style be the most efficient? I also just found they make electric tankless... House is 2 full baths, 1 semi (shower & sink, no toilet). Any help appreciated, thanks so much!
P.s. that 1st heater you covered i cant even wrao my head around $100 some odd/year to operate? They do say if its too good to be true...
If the unit is in a mechanical room in a basement that can be closed off, does that help with not reducing the temp in the living space of the basement? I'm not sure I'm understanding how big of an area it can reduce the temp in and whether or not closing it off in an unfinished room solves the problem. I'm also wanting to install a heat pump HVAC system, so i don't want them competing against each other in open spaces.
Would any of the above heaters work for radiant floor heating systems to replace oil fired boiler? ($333/month average for hot water and heat last year, and probably more this year) 13c/KWhr electricity where i live.
You probably won't get enough BTUs. You can put one in front of your boiler to pre-charge the water that is returning and then the boiler only raises the temp from 140F to your required temp 180F? instead of from your delta T drop which can significantly reduce your gas bill.
@@walnutcontractors5661 Thanks.. My bills have been quite high so far this year.. It would be nice to get away from the fuel completely, so i have less maintenance. I am reading online that the radiant floor water temps are 85-140 degrees. I know that i have 2 separate holding tanks, one for potable water (105 degrees). I am speculating that the issue for just hpwh with no additional boiler would be sustained use at temperature.
@@AkSeapilot It isn't impossible to have it work but you either need multiple of them or you need a close to passive house. A residential boiler is usually around 40,000 BTU. The proterra 80 gallon is 4500 BTU so if you buy 10 of them then you'd have the same peak heat generation. Boilers are normally oversized to avoid any callbacks though so if you do a heat loss calc on your house using loopcad you can see your actual BTU requirements at design temp. The other thing you can do is have supplemental heat so on the coldest design days you turn on the baseboards in addition to your radiant flooring rather than oversizing the hpwts portion of your system.
Will the 110 circuit unit operate on the 30 amp double pole circuit provided for the stone age blow dryer water heater?
Assuming 10 gauge wire and that a 110VAC unit does not exceed 16 Amps, you could re-purpose the wire run from the panel, swap the double-pole breaker for a single-pole, re-homing the white wire from one leg of breaker to the neutral bus, and then install a 20A 120VAC outlet, which may need to be ground-fault interrupted. Long story short: NO, don’t keep on double-pole breaker as that would provide 240VAC. If DIY, you are talking
In Australia I installed an Ecogenica split unit. They are the most efficient and have the highest sales at present. Do they sell those units in the USA?
Rheem makes the electric Marathon water heater that has a non corroding plastic tank. It’s a great water heater. So, why don’t they make a heat pump version? It would seem to make sense.
I have a commercial grade electric water heater. Works great.
I prefer smart shutoffs at the water main and gas main. That way I shutoff water when everyone is more than 50 miles away from the house. I also turn off my outside has kitchen/fireplace with a smart valve 2 hrs after turning it on. So it can never be turned off.
My water heater went out last summer and my wife vetoed going 7 days without water while it was shipped.
And how much does one of those "smart" valves cost... assuming it goes via geolocation of your phone...
@@w8stral Geolocation is not applicable here. Similar to smart locks on a home.
Cost will be totally dependant on the system of your home, IE if it's a basic valve just for this application or, if you have a full automation setup.
Are you dumb? Dumb Q: YOU brought up geolocation valves turning off if greater than>> range from home. @@shawnduffy279
@@w8stralI have a moen and I connect to use Google Home, but I use home assistant as well to track my location. The Geo location is from phone and phone app. Allowing home assistant app to see your location always and sign in. Do this for each phone you want to track.
My gas valve is a cheaper Amazon but bolted to handle to remove slop. I’d like to replace with a gas version of moen but the only thing I can find is in larger diameter (inches) and industrial.
Should have clarified that the A.O. Smith model comes as a 240 volt with a dual back-up 4.500 watt element setup that works one at a time. 3 of their 5 hybrid water heaters are 240volt, the other 2 are 120 volt plug-in versions. Some important information you should have gotten from the companies was how many btu/hr their heat pump unit makes just from the heat pump and not the element. It makes a big difference for how much it needs to use the element and some may have 8,000 while others have 12,000, and some split units might have 24,000.
You did not mention it but the specs projected on the upper right at the end of the Rheem Proterra segment showed the unit was natural gas ready. Does this mean it can operate on natural gas when the heat pump is not able to meet the water demand instead of having to supply a 240 volt circuit? This might be beneficial to those who currently have a natural gas water heater and no 240 volt supply. Running a 240 volt supply might increase the installation cost substantially.
110/120 and 220/240 are RMS(root mean square?) vs peak to peak. to add to confusion for a few years in the 60s somebody decided to average the two son you'll see 115 (ive never seen 230).
110 is single leg to ground , 220 are 2 legs 180 degrees to each other. 2 legs is "standard"in Europe. 208 is 2 legs of 3 phase, so 120 degrees apart. 3phase is normally only found in non-residential construction.
"Even in Austin last Winter when it was 17 degrees out!" LOL I swear you Texans are trolling with this more every year! We're all North of you in the same storms!
Yes, but homes and infrastructure in Austin are not built for 17 F.
For those looking to understand how "loud" or "quiet" these systems are, I will offer this bit of info as a comparison.
Everyone has at home or works with a desktop computer. The fans in those typically run at about 35-38dBA. This is provided based on the fact I a) work in the industry and b) unless you are running a custom PC where you can control the fan curve, these fans run at 90-100% by default. That's how Dell and others set them to keep the PCs from overheating and causing customer service calls.
Now, a lot goes into that "noise" such as fan RPM, size of the fan etc however, same applies to these HPWH. Smaller fans produce more noise at that same RPM as a larger fan. Blade shape and the amount of resistance (how the fan receives or expels the air) creates noise. So your PC fan 35 dBA may have more of a whine vs the same 35dBA produced by your HPWH.
So for the majority of these the noise is, in my opinion, negligible. Unless your are sleeping near this thing or have it in a quiet space, library, office, baby's room, you most likely won't even notice any noise. If you do, it will probably be no worse than a "white noise" machine or your typical fan someone needs to have on because the "sound helps them fall asleep". If it is horrible, it's most likely a fan, bearing or motor issue etc vs just a loud HPWH.
35 dB pc fan is quite different than a 59 db heat pump which some of these are. But yeah a noisy restaurant is like 85-90. I don’t really care about absolute quiet in my mechanical room. Reminder, every 10db is doubling of loudness.
@@hickorydragon8114 That is true regarding every 10db doubling sound. And I also agree with the mechanical room statement.
The reason I used desktop PCs as an example is because we all have 1 ... Okay; some people have laptops but we all work around PCs. So the ability to give people an example of how loud at least 35+ db was, allows them to have a general idea of how loud these could be. I didn't think about adding the 10db fact you stated but am glad to see you did. Appreciate it. 🖖🏻
Honestly. Unless this thing is in your bedroom or a similar space, I don't think it will matter but it's nice to have the data.
Thanks for collaborating.
Cheers!
I like that this video is not sponsored.
Hope you can do a video on the best heat pumps.