Heat Pumps - Our 'Ugly' Truth!
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- Опубликовано: 14 май 2024
- There's a lot of info out there about Heat Pumps, both good, bad and completely made up!
So I tell my side of the story about our experience so far with the magical heating system.
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Glad to see you made the switch! We're now 9 years into heat pump ownership having come from an oil boiler. Same as you, our boiler was end of life (it had actually died in our case) so we took the plunge a few months earlier than planned.
Ours is a 12KW Panasonic and heats water up to 65 degrees. We run it at 55 degrees in winter, although it adjusts itself for weather conditions. Payback was a little over 5 years so we're well in profit now.
Best thing we ever did! It plumbed straight into our existing radiators and cylinder. The only additions were an expansion vessel near the heat pump and a small tank in the return pipework which moderates the return temperature so the HP isn't switching on and off all the time.
Efficiency, as you say, is not as good on older HPs and, like MPG claims for cars, doesn't match the quoted numbers, but the savings are clear to see.
Looking forward to updates on this project as time passes and you learn more.
What did you have before the heat pump?
@@edc1569 A Camray 5 oil boiler.
You sound like an infomercial. 🤣😂💀☠💩🤠
I’m starting to look into this as well as solar, thank you, you are a god send when it comes to making sense of this stuff. It seems the big energy companies are over specifying their installs, in this case it seems best to some of the leg work yourself. Well Done and I hope it works as you think over the Winter!
still on the journey for a solar system, 9 months and counting , prevarications abound, maybe its us, but glad your experience was more enjoyable than ours to date. i have viewed your channel and found your explanations very helpful , i even followed up on your recommendation for an supplier /installer . who knows if we will ever have a working system from them, maybe they will ring back or answer an e-mail.
good luck with system , first 4 not in our case it would seem
As someone that fits all types of systems this was a no brainer for your property, it isn't suitable for everyone or all properties though. Good job on getting a Vailant though they're some of the nicest on the market with probably the best warranty support. It's nice to see a balanced video of get your property sized up for one (hopefully by competent engineers and not sales reps).
Interesting video to see what you've done, especially as the gas boiler in my 50 year-old-house died a few years ago (she used to set the thermo at 25C!). We're in the tropics (down south) so have minimal heating needs otherwise, it's a woolly jumper time when chilly. Unfortunately, looking at the costs it's not for me as there's no money in the pot for a good number of years to come.
the BEST thing you can do for any heating system involving radiators and water is to get it flush cleaned every year ensure your inhibitor is correct and fit a magnet system regardless of how you heat the water your efficiency is mostly dictated by the size placement and cleanliness of your system
An excellent, well-balanced video. Many thanks.
I am already using first4solar (halfway through installing solar+batteries) and my experience with them is top notch.
EDIT: The replies to this are correct. 8 months later and still nothing installed. Nothing but a total lack of communication and missed install dates.
It must be April Fools day . First 4 Solar are the WORST in the business-zero customer care and a couldn't care less attitude means we cancelled our order after 4 months of zero respones!
@@simonstewart872 I would have to agree, worst customer care ever...their install however was top notch..and I always over investigate all my purchases, so I end up knowing more than them..if you want something done..do it yourself!
interesting video thanks. I actually started watching your previous video from last year first where you said you decided a ASHP wasnt for you. Interesting to see your journey! I've had a similar journey and I have actually just actually installed an ecodan 14kwh heat pump last week - and am loving it so far. Id now like to get some more solar panels to add to our array to offset some of the additional electricity costs in summer. Were on the Octopus Tesla energy plan (using our powerwall as a virtual power plant in peak hours); so although we discharge the battery down to 20% each evening to supply the grid, we benefit from the lower day import rate. Keep up the great work!
Good video, looking forward to seeing how you get on in the winter.
Hi EVMan! Looking forward to seeing the numbers on the "whiteboard of truth" over the coming weeks! 🙂 We had Givenergy installed with 8.2kWh battery after watching you vids on that! We're looking at getting an ASHP too, we're even thinking of installing another 8.2kWh battery to support heating needs through winter (and charging it with cheaper electricity). Will you be reporting on the fluctuation of how many kWh the heat pump uses through each day? That would be really interesting, especially to see if the consumption of the ASHP mainly stays below the output capacity of the Inverter. Thanks for these vids, important times to be on the ball as things are changing so quickly! Dean
We to have a GE 8.2 kwh battery, and 6kwh PV. PV been next to useless the last 2 months in the UK, and whilst I usually agree with his man maths, I can see how an ASHP would be affordable.
Maybe if electricity becomes cheaper, they'll be more viable
Really good to see a likeminded video. This has opened my eyes to heat pumps. We have just had a 8kwh solar panel array installed with 10kw battery.
Great video, keep up the informative videos
That's a very big PV array! 10kwh battery is not going to be enough to maximize it's capacity
@@kiddwong4186 Its absolutely enough, when you have a car with a 74kw battery ti excess in. Our export is very minimal. Even more so when our Hot Water Energy Diverter is installed.
@@DIYJourney1 My hot water diverter was one of the best investments I have made in years. Looking forward to getting a battery. An electric car is sadly years asway for me.
Excellent choice, we had an Arotherm Plus 10kW installed back in July. Needed quite a lot of radiators replaced though as many pf the ones in the house were 70s/80s vintage......they would have needed to be replaced regardless..Currently heating DHW to 45 degrees, seems to suit the family at the moment.
I have a very similar system with the mitsubishi ecodan system. Not sure if you can do the same with yours, but I changed out the immersion heater with one I could control the temp on. This in turn is connected to a solar i boost which uses excess electricity once my batteries are full to heat my water tank. For most of the year I get free hot water this way. When there is not enough sunshine the i boost has a boost function and can also be programmed for my/your time of use tariff. The installers were not aware that solar power could be used to heat the water this way, but the engineer who does the annual service is a Mitsubishi engineer and told me how to do it. Worth checking to save a few bob lol.
Hi EVM. Yes, your pump might be nice and quiet in summer when it’s not really doing much. However in winter when it’s near freezing, the pump is working hard and possibly doing a defrost cycle, please report back! Ours is occasionally very noisy. This is why it’s still important to site the pump carefully and to isolate it from the house - ie not attach it to the house but to have it free-standing.
@@coldlyanalytical1351 Are you sure it’s switched on 😂
Glad you have made the decision. I have been thinking for a while about installing a heat pump, but those bad reviews have held me back. I will need to do a survey to see how much it will cost. You have made my decision easier! Thank you very much!
We did the same a year ago, except we plan to extend the house, so the install was basic strieght swap with our old oil burner using a LG 9kw Therma V Monobloc system. The monoblock is an all in one system an sits outside in one self contain box with a fan. Cost us £7k including install.
About 2 months back I got my own ASHP setup installed.
For my house it wasn't practical to do ducted and as I live alone in a big 4 bedroom house I wanted to be able to heat individual rooms. I ended up with 6 indoor units. 3x 1.5kW, 2x 2.5kW, and 1x 5kW.
Outside, I have 2 outdoor units, one on each side of the house controlling 3 indoor units each. One rated at 11kW capacity and the other I believe 13kW. Both are fused at 8 amps. (About 2kW)
System has been working great. Got a GivEnergy 9.5kWh battery getting installed tomorrow with a 5.5kWh solar system and the 5kW Hybrid inverter. Unfortunaterly I have no hot water heating outside of the gas boiler though, problem for another time I suppose. :)
Good vid. And I like the look of the all in one "fridge" install! Have not liked the look of the "pipes all over the place" heat pump installs which just look like a water leak going to happen at some pint in the future..This looks clean and modern. Will look forward to the updates. I did a quote on an install for our house about 3 years ago and it was shockingly expensive. All the rads would need replacing etc and upgraded pipework. But will be looking to get rid of our gas boiler at some point so a heat pump should been on our horizon.
Great to see you've made the leap to ASHP. You've got the right setup with solar PV and batteries to cut your costs down. Last winter on the old Octopus Go tariff we spent £100 a month with solar PV but no battery. We just got our 8.2kwh GivEnergy battery commissioned and running and about to move to the more expensive Octopus Go tariff (similar to your rates). We'll see how quickly the battery gives a ROI.
My case with batteries have been
Summer battery use 4 Kwh avg
Winter battery use 6 to 8
This summer saving £50
Winter saving £80
Yr saving £860
Solar Panels still have the best ROI, but every little energy saving nibbles at lowering
I agree with you 100%! We replaced our Oil-fired boiler with an ASHP back in May and it heats our hot water to 50c very quickly indeed. We have a new 210 litres HW cylinder in our old airing cupboard, the HW system is now connected to the mains (no more shower pump!) and we had 3 radiators replaced with larger ones. We had a couple of chilly evenings right after installation and experienced rapid even warming of the house for the first time in 38 years. Of course winter will be the real test for the heating, but I'm already quite relaxed about the prospect. Our installer told us that he had been called to a new build which wasn't getting warm last winter. His diagnosis was that the builder had installed Swimming Pool Heat Pumps and, presumably pocketed the grant! Other owners in the same road have now contacted him.
The way electricity prices are going I wouldn’t touch one. Please don’t tell me they don’t make noise I worked on building sites and I’ve heard them in the depths of winter they are noisy.
@@thomasreed49 Ours will cost us an extra £800-1000 a year in electricity whilst we save £3,000+ a year in heating oil, so a good solution for us. I'm sure some are noisy, but they're the bad ones! Our Midea is a monstrous 16kw machine and in this recent spell of bitterly cold weather it has merely been a hum in the background from the kitchen, a faint rushing sounds in some radiators and distinct, but not loud, rushing sound of air outside. The rest of the time, it's pretty quiet. You're on the wrong building sites 😉
@@Olivarus238 £3000 per year on heating oil!!!! ???
If you’re burning that much oil, I don’t think for a minute you are going to get away with £800-1000 per Yr on electric - no chance!!
@ybliga that's just the extra for the Heat Pump and, even after that bitter cold spell, we're almost on course.... maybe £1200! We have off-peak power, extensive insulation, double glazing, draught sealing etc., etc. So, yes, we're on course.
@@Olivarus238 What was the cost of your installation please?
I’m am at the stage of researching for possibly solar panels, heat pump, water tank storage, & batteries. My bungalow with a large flat area on one roof is 2 yrs old with underfloor heating, plus the latest in insulation. It’s got a gas Worcester boiler at present. Your videos are very helpful & thank goodness the heat pumps are now quiet. I’ll look into First 4 Solar, it is difficult to know which company to trust but I know your recommendations are good and much thought given! Thanks again.
We've had our HeatPump for 4 years now and we wouldn't change it for the world. Clean efficient heating. We will be installing solar panels soon too (with battery) and we'll almost be bill-free! Our HeatPump installer is absolutely brilliant; very knowledgeable and honest from the start. He did mention that we would have to look at improving a few things to get it to run even better, but these were things that we knew already and that we were planning to do anyway (like installing a new front door cos ours is basically cardboard and also insulating our attic a little better) But as I say, we're super happy to have installed it. And just to let you know, I had to fight with my wife, my dad and my father in-law for 3 years before being allowed to have it installed, cos they all thought it wouldn't work.... (we're in Ireland btw)
🇮🇪🇮🇪🇮🇪🇮🇪
Great, informative video. Always good to hear experience from the horses mouth and someone who has spent their own $. Keep up the great work.
We've got heat pump heating/cooling in house and recently added a heat pump to our outdoor pool and it's works fantastic. We also had some learnings from our install and will have a video out in the next few months if anyone's interested from an Australian perspective.
It's also a horse with invested interests in going 'green'.
Not the same type of heat pumps.
These only do water heating, whereas in Australia they're air heaters/ coolers.
@@Robert-cu9bm Hi Robert, I understand the difference between the tech. We have 3 heat pump types.1. The domestic/commercial hot water heating type (similar to video), 2 pool & spa water heating and 3 the air heating/ cooling type. Although we use solar evacuated tube heating system for our hot water as it's the most efficient in our circumstances.
What do you have?
We live in Denmark and have had a heatpump for 3 years without any problems. The house is from 1934 and we upgraded one radiator. The water temperature for heating is 38 C in winter and between 30-32 C in summer. But I wouldn't buy it to small. Some companies said we should have a 6 kW and some said 11 kW. Both would probably be able to heat the house but the small one might use to much energy from the electric heater and make it inefficient. The electric heater is used to raise the water temperature for tap water to the right level. We went for a 11 kW but one of my friends went for a 6 kW (cheaper to buy) in the same type of house. Their heatpump is not as efficient as ours and therefore much more expensive to run.
In short... Make sure that your heatpump is the right size. Not to big and not to small
In winter it will use a massive amount of electricity though that's the problem, great video though really clear and well put together, keep us updated.
Informative video, looking forward to the follow ups. I'm actively looking at greener ways to heat our home.
I bought solar this year. I want to get rid of gas too and want to go through a winter and more info before looking at taking the plunge. Thanks for the video, looking forward to seeing your updates
Think I feel exactly the same. My solar was installed in June and saved about 55 percent on the electric. Allegedly the battery will go live next month which hopefully will save another 50 per cent. Still using gas for heating though so very interested in other people's practical experience. The price of energy in this country is ridiculous, and a lot of smes will go bust in the next 12 months unless the government acts decisively.
@@keithhobbs1 I haven't used any gas since April,I have a solar iboost water heater and that provides enough hot water provided there aren't too many after dark showers
We installed a Daikin Altherma 3 heat pump in June. The peak power output is slightly more than yours but we have a larger, detached property. Flow temperature 46 C; SCOP 3.8. We opted for a Mixergy water tank which is programmable to make the most of cheap overnight electricity, though we also have solar PV and a home battery to offset the running costs. At current and projected electricity prices it will pay for itself within the warranty period.
Hope they come good for me!
Interesting video, thanks! I have solar panels but no batteries. Would it then be better to get an electric boiler with integrated battery instead of a heat-pump?
Great stuff! I have solar, battery, heatpump and MVHR and octopus GO.
Do you also have an energy diverter on the immersion heater?
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. I really like your content. Well explained and entertaining.
Not getting a EV until end Sept, but Octopus switched me to Go last December without questioning if I had a EV, not sure if they have tightened it up since then, I switched from agile.
I had Tripple glazing installed earlyer this year (about £5k labour and parts for a terraced house) and did not cost much more than double, in some cases if the frames are good quality you can just have the glass inserts replaced
Thank you for this. It's good to get an honest take on ASHP from someone of similar mindset to myself.
Our house is 18 years old. The oil boiler is the same age. The upside is I can maintain it myself. Mains gas has only become available in our area last year but I have honestly never been a fan and definitely not a fan of combi boilers. I prefer hot water storage, particularly since we have recently invested in solar and an Eddi hot water diverter.
We have been fully EV for a few years now with a 2016 Leaf 30 and 2021 M3LR so ASHP is definitely on the cards. I might just need to tease another couple of years out of the oil boiler first as the solar install was obviously a significant investment.
Just to mention that you can easily maintain an ashp yourself.
Thank you for this video. I find it really very difficult to research heat pumps. You explained how much energy it took to heat up the water tank and how big it was. I can’t find this on Sunamp site, e.g. how many Kw will it pull, how many Kw to charge the heat battery? Does the solar version adapt consumption for available sun? No info. And in my terraced house I think I would need to have an exhaust air heat pump but Joule say these are suitable for a new build house or an apartment and I think what is different about those buildings compared to my 1970 house. It isn’t explained, and all I see are Nibe horror stories, where Nibe say installed wrong... So I will be very interested to learn your experience over the winter, because I’m in a similar experience with a 2006/7 gas combi and I want to do fabric first upgrades as I redecorate before changing it.
Looks great, but we just don't have the interior space for a water tank that's the size of a very big fridge freezer, even if we laid it flat in the loft.
I've requested an octopus ashp survey so hopefully they'll be able to suggest something for our situation.
Thanks for another great vid.
You'll need somewhere for the cylinder.
Do t hold your breath with the OctopusEnergy ashp survery was bit disappointed just ours and going to wait for bit longer I think
I would recommend going nowhere near first for solar, i ordered a battery from them with six to eight week delivery in February they still have not installed it, i have had install dates given and then cancelled at the last minute i must have spoken to almost all of their staff including the MD. All with no result., read their reviews i am not alone, there is a reason they want 50% deposit its so you cant run away , i have never used such a terrible company , and i work in construction, engage first for solar at your peril, you have been warned!
I do not know this company so cannot speak about it specifically, however all installers are suffering from supply and cost issues. I have been looking for an expansion to my house battery (5KWh to 15KWh) and it is taking many months to get supply. Each delivery to the wholesalers is being delayed and when it arrives the price has gone up. I have been quoted prices 50% higher from some supploers than others. Fully paid mine now but still waiting for delivery. Wish me luck!
Couldn't agree more. Solar and battery bought and fitted by F4S. Price and sales were great but everything else sucked big time. Mislead time and time again about installation dates.....such a shame as they would be a great company if they just told me the truth.
@@williamarmstrong7199 I had a similar experience. We ordered our GivEnergy battery in Feb 2022 and it finally came in July. Had to wait another month for the WiFi dongle that was needed to commission and actually run it. Supply is massively delayed for all domestic renewable systems
@@jamesbarnes2623 Gives me a little faith they may actually get around to me then!
That is why you buy things like that on your credit card. Then call the CC company and submit a section 75. They'd chase the company and get your money back
Did you get the extra resistor installed on the outdoor unit to enable the cooling function (reverse flow)?
we had a heat pump installed before last winter form an old oil burner, so happy with it cheaper by miles tons of hot water, very very happy with it
The increased cost of electricity is a concern when that heat pump is going to have to be run pretty much constantly through winter to be efficient! 😲⚠️🤔
Didn’t gas get more expensive too?
@@edc1569 Precisely, heat pumps are being pushed forward as a 'better' all round solution compared to 'old' gas boilers, ie cheaper to run and better for the planet plus more efficient.
For me personally I'm not seeing where the benefits are?
Gas fired power stations already produce the majority of our electricity in the UK.
Gas boilers are at about the peak of their efficiency, mine is only a couple of years old and I can tell.it is far more efficient than my last boiler, my house is warmer and costs less to keep warm!
It's going to be another 20 years or more before we see renewable energy becoming our main source of energy.
But I doubt we'll get to that point as demand for power increases exponentially as the EV market gains momentum, certainly by 2030 we'll see a huge increase in demand for power, we're already very close to full capacity on the national grid.
I think.heat pimps are probably going to work fine in modern thermally efficirnt houses designed to run them. But in the UK most of our housing stock is older, draughty and thermally much less efficient, a heat pump will not work in those circumstances.
You're right heating my home with a gas boiler is going to be much more expensive this winter.
Hence why I have installed a wood burner, I've already built up enough wood to last me through winter just by foraging. 👍
A very refreshing video. It’s great to see more in life experiences with these. I’ve been trying to provide a balanced response to the naysayers for years.
It would be interesting to see the specs for the outdoor unit. Also, yes 50 degrees setpoint is more than ample 👌🏻. I’ve commissioned a hell of a lot of York Amichi’s over the past four years and you really do not need to push past 50 degrees on a water system.
When I lived in Denmark. Our home had the joy of using wood pellets. I would dump a sack in the hopper in the morning and it was seriously toasty all day long. The burner lived in the cellar with some creative pipework to warm every room. It's going to be nice to see how you get on with the heat pump. Good luck
NOT the future
Thank you for sharing your information - very interesting. Do you have your total heat loss figure for your house?
I needed a new boiler recently and got quotes for both a boiler and a heat pump. I really wanted to get a heat pump but my local installers were really negative about it and it was far more expensive. Hopefully next time I need a new boiler I’ll go for a heat pump, hopefully the local installers will be more clued up in them and fingers crossed about a drop in price.
Really looking forward to how things go with yours
You had a lucky escape, use your brain, the only people pushing these are making money from it. When it minuses outside where do these heat pump get the heat from ? They have an electric heater ,
@@colingathercole391 That's not correct, Colin. Current heat pumps can extract useful heat from the air down to beyond -20c. Theoretically there is heat energy in the air right down to temperatures of "absolute zero" (0 kelvin) which is -273c!
@@colingathercole391 It's a matter of simple physics. Our 'zero' is actually not indicating there's zero heat - it's just zero on the centigrade or Celsius scale.
Absolute zero is something like -273 (that's a minus) degrees Celsius. so even below zero centigrade there's a lot of energy available. Recently we had overnight temperatures of minus nine degrees centigrade but my heat pump kept the house toasty warm.
In fact the last 8 days have been well below zero all night and for most of the day where I live but every room in the house has maintained a temperature of at least 19C (and it's only 19 because that's the temperature we wanted). Our bathroom is always set at 23C so we don't shiver when we get out of the shower.
So Colin - please use YOUR brain rather than spouting complete nonsense. You clearly don't understand the laws of physics
@@colingathercole391 Wrong, heat pumps can extract energy down to minus 40, it all depends on the refrigerant used. Scandinavia and Canada have used heat pumps for decades.
@@hazmat5749Comparing houses in Scandinavia and Canada with England is pointless, when half of the houses don't even have roof insulation. 😂😂
When I hear “triple-glazed” I imagine a cake with three layers of icing, LOL, and I have to remind myself that you’re talking about insulated windows. (I’m on the West Coast of Canada, and we typically refer to it as “triple-pane” glass/windows here.)
Hope EVM you'll have some videos up about the controls, apps etc. It would be excellent if after you battery is charged excess electricity can be diverted to the heat pump to warm up the hot water.
Great video. Which company did you use to install your Air Source Heat Pump?
Thanks, very interesting, sadly our 300 year old property would need gutting to install this, so yes for those with the right property it is a good idea.Ground source even better COP, but you need the ground.
But where in most houses with combi boilers and therefore no cylinder cupboard would you be able to accommodate that huge tower?
You can't, people who have got rid of their cylinder cupboards and have no loft space are in a difficult space, stuck with combi's for now. I suspect eventually they'll bring out a large outdoor unit, but for many that won't be a great solution either.
Its not huge, its about the size of an upright fridge freezer or a wardrobe.
You can get separate smaller components, this is just an all-in-one solution.
You'd not bother with wet hearing at all and simply have A2A cassettes.
Very interesting and useful.
One thing I’d like to ask is what power it is using during running - you mention it can take up to 2,5 kW - I guess that is at its max - but what is it using while running during the day for example?
Looking forward to more videos to see how you will get on over the winter with the new heat pump.
Yer and cost to run over the winter of this new unit as older units are costing as much in one month mid winter as our whole years gas bill ! Be studying real owners info over last winter not to impressed with the older units . So will watch with interest thanks ev man on your winter updates
I will wait for the winter figures to come in THAT will be the true make or brake for me, looking forward to that!
My concern is the complexity of a heat pump system. How many years do they continue to support their systems with spare parts? How quickly will they ship a spare part? Do they keep all spares for all their systems in stock? Any Corgi certified engineer can fix any gas boiler but what choice do I have about who will service and fix this heat pump?
Thanks for another great video watching your update videos with interests as been looking at ashp for 3 years
We've had our heat pump for almost a year and had no problems except for the unlooping but we now have 3 phase ready for the solar and car charger.
Thanks for sharing your experience 🙂. I had also installed a heat pump in my 50 year old house (12 years ago). And it was the best decision I could have made. It was expensive as it is a geothermal heat pump, but it's very economical.
To add to your experience, here's a few points I noticed or learned:
- a heat pump also saves money in maintenance, as it doesn't need that (contrary to gaz heaters)
- best would be to use a heat pump at low temperatures (like floor heating) as the higher the temperature, the lower the efficiency
- in any case, a heat pump will always be much better than traditional resistive heaters
In my case, in ten years, I have saved more money in my electricity bills than the cost of the heat pump itself. So yes, it can be expensive, but it remains a good investment 😉
So you don't have gas mains?
@@Robert-cu9bm No gas. Just electricity as energy.
@@infinityNmore That’s some speculative outlook. I will be better off in 10 years time Hmm 🤔 Here’s my prediction ( far likely to happen).
Gas is now being considered Green again at an amazingly fast rate by those that called it the devil just a few years and months ago, funny that hey. (Even Greta has been thrown out of the gang) Therefore once the artificially created carbon zero demand loses support due to actual reality which it will, Gas will reign supreme and be cheaper than even 5 years ago. Gas boilers will once again be the tech of choice and heat pumps resigned to the looney tunes brigade. If I’m wrong I’ll be very,very, very surprised.
@@Mizzkan it's not speculative. I have installed and I have saved money over the last 10 years compared to the previous heater. And if I compare to my parent's house which is heated with gas, including maintenance cost, my heat pump currently costs 1/4 of their gas burner in running costs. And gas prices are increasing more than electricity prices over here.
@@infinityNmore Well we would need to know your old setup and what type of inefficient heater you were running. And clearly your not in the UK. But either way gas will come down significantly when the looney tunes running the show get their act together. Like I said you will start hearing gas is green again in the coming years,. It has to be a very very specific setup with almost perfect installation for heat pumps to be better than traditional (ground source like yours is obviously better) and from what I’ve seen they are not. Even EVM’s setup looks horrendous and is onto a loser.
Will you be upgrading your storage battery capacity to handle the electrical demands of the heat pump?
I calculated I'd need 20 kWh per day in January to run a heat pump. That's a big battery!
People with a tiny 5 or 7 kWh battery will do jack shit in winter.
Will you be sticking on a solar diverter for times when your going to export or will you simply manage it manually / with timer during sunny days with the Givenergy as a buffer?
EVM is on Octopus Go which doesn't give you anything for solar energy exported. Any electricity generated by his solar PV array goes to any household demand first and then to the battery if there is excess. If the battery is full then the excess goes to the grid but you don't get any money for it.
@@kiddwong4186 eh, no. EVM has a similar setup to myself. Octopus allows you to have their SEG tariff paying about 4.1p IF you export it. My question to EVM was would he be getting a diverter to automatically power his water heater instead of recieving this small pittance, when he could stick it in the water tank and avoid having to pay 7.5p later for the same energy.
I get 4.1p export.
I have a plan for any excess, excess solar. Not water though.
Hi, what is wattage used by both on Basis of KWH?
Welcome to the gang. I mean the heat pump gang.
Yours has been an incredible journey, starting with the missing insulation of the house and the garage to now leaving gas behind.
I have to roughly calculate how much energy you heed to heat up 190 l of water from 15 degC(tab temp) to 50 degC. I expect to be something like 10 - 15 kWh, but we’ll see.
Wow 15 kWh is terrible. I guess keeping a gas boiler is the way to go.
@@Mizzkan The heat pump will be providing most of that. If the heat pump efficiency ('COP') is '3' then it gives 3kWh of heat for every 1 kWh of electricity it uses. The latest ASHP claim ratings between high '3' and high '4' - so to get 15 kWh of water heating you would use 4-5 kWh of electricity - which is much more efficient than gas.
@@neilcunningham1081 But gas is still cheaper. I don’t get it I’m afraid.
@@Mizzkan Gas is contributing to climate change which is trashing the survivability of most species on the planet including us. At the moment in the Uk gas is anything but cheap (this will fluctuate of course). If you have enough solar panels (which pay for themselves in 5-10 years) then the cost of running the heat pump is low/free (and green).
@@Mizzkan If you heat your water on an EV tariff, at say 7.5p/kWh, then it is much cheaper than gas, once you factor the efficiency of the HP at (say) 3, your unit cost is down to 2.5p/kWh. A quarter the price of gas.
Very interesting video and look forward to the data over the winter months.
Great video! is it possible to get the dimensions and weight of the immersion heater/buffer tank? Just curious about how much I would need to free up!
Best to google vaillant unitower manual.
v. intresting video. is the heat pump “refrigerant” gas r290 (i.e. propane)? did the vaillant installation guide put a lot of constraints on the condensate soakaway and position of the outside unit w.r.t. openings , drains etc? thx, GMS
Yes
What was the cost for you please?
Seems to be a lot of negative comments. What I'd like to know is how much was the install and how much does it cost to run a month? I'm fairly certain they work if installed properly but at what cost?. (Please don't include solar and battery as most don't have that yet and would be purchased before a heat pump).
would love one now i have solar and storage but i have no space to fit the internal unit. currently have a combi too.
Did First4Solar supply & install all your equipment? Do you have an Eddi controller? 🤔
Yes of course heat pumps work! But their economic success is almost entirely based upon the ‘spark gap’ (difference between cost per kWh of gas verses electricity). And air source heat pump efficiency is of course at the mercy of ambient air temperature. I have been designing heat pump installations for commercial properties for a while. So I know a little bit about HP economics. It will be interesting to establish your annual seasonal COP which takes into account winter external temperature and additional energy you will incur on defrosting your evaporator. I think you have done the right thing though and it is useful to see the domestic consumer experience on show.
Interesting, but of absolutely no use to me. Why? My house is pre-war, with no wall cavity, so therefore no insulation - and - I don't have a garage to put that enormous rack of whatsits in! Factor in my age, and I'd probably die before I broke even on the installation costs - if I could afford them!
Can it be programmed to heat the tank if you have extra solar and the batteries are already full .
Questions:
What size is your house?
How old is your house?
What was the cost of the extra insulation required in your house? (If any)
Is the house cavity wall insulated? If so, how much did that cost (or would it cost if needed)?
How much was budgeted for the complete upper floor repipe, even though it wasn't needed? (My house would need a complete repipe - and no underfloor heating currently fitted.)
How much did the heatpump and its installation cost?
All that is in the other videos.
Like any venture in life, the better you plan the better the outcome will be. Do your research, pick the right installer, take the upfrom hit (albeit not everyone can afford to) and it will pay dividends in the medium to term.
Hopefully Andy you will make use of the whiteboard of truth once winter hits and you have a better idea of running costs/payback time.
If your smart you would keep a gas boiler. No ifs and no buts. Indeed if your up to date on current political policy Gas is now back to being Green again. Funny old world hey
Heat pumps are neither good nor bad. It always comes down to "does the design work for the building and will you get a return on investment". Be interesting to see how you get on in winter.
saw your vid made about a year ago when you were on holiday about heat pumps not being for you, but now your getting one. i'm in a similar situation what made you change your mind?
Great video and definitely something I’m thinking about. Just wondering if you are intending to continue with the Tado rad values on the new setup?
Yer interested in this too has got them too and finding it difficult to get answers on few sticking questions from our last 3 quotes
All very interesting and useful info but as the technology gets more widespread the off peak rate will increase - as it will no longer be off peak! My neighbours heat pumps are older and very noisy being audible at 2am in my house 20m away. I look forward to your report in January. Before installing anything like this I would like to know how long it's likely to last. Was being lectured at Uni about heat pumps in buildings 40 years ago by a professor who's real world preference was for heat recovery systems.
Great video. Did you consider air-air for a/c in bedrooms etc.? I am considering splitting air-water for downstairs heating and hot water, and a air-air for heating and cooling of upstairs.
Likely UK summers are going to be hotter for longer so I'm betting more and more people are going to look for cooling too.
If you want the grant you need to install a system that provides space and water heating.
@Ed C that is what one of the units would be doing, I guess I may have issues finding one small enough so it's not cycling on and off all the time.
This is all theoretical tho, I need to have a re-roof, install solar and battery, buy an EV, and then add heat pumps. I should be able to afford that by 2040ish
@@edc1569 sometimes avoiding the companies chasing grant money can make more sense. Mini splits cost less than heat pumps, even without grants.
@@grahamleiper1538 and they can output 90 percent of rated capacity at -35 C . This is what Gree commercial says
@gilburton if your house is not air tight and insulated . Both systems will not perform well. Buy cheapest infrared attachment to a phone and inspect the house on a cold day in a winter. Do some posable improvements with can spray foam and extra insulation. . Search air to air cold climate heat pumps . Pay attention to output from nominal capacity at cold temperatures. I would not consider buying European or Japanese brands too expensive LG or Gree, Meadia , read instructions and install it by yourself
Very interesting, thank you. We are considering getting a heat pump at some point, hopefully not too far away. Very useful information.
Can you still get the reduced time-of-use rate on an electricity-only usage? I'm sure my supplier only gives discounts for dual-fuel use
Norway has dry cold. UK is damp. Norway constructs houses with much higher standards of insulation.
Norway also goes down to temperatures far lower than the UK, necessitating the insulation.
@@ElectricVehicleMan I disagree southern France needs as much insulation as Norway, it’s much more comfortable.
@@reggievonramstein The average winter temp of France vs Norway is what?
@@ElectricVehicleMan 5*C but it can snow once every few years.
@@reggievonramstein it get down to minus 20/30c.
Nothing alike.
I subscribe to you and Skill Builder, enjoying excellent content from you both. But it is a mistake to discredit what he has said about heat pumps! He does not say they don't work period, but instead he has stated, often they are not economic or even effective! I've bought an electric car, have solar panels and am switching to the Octopus Go Tarriff like you, but we are not typical of most households. You do say as much later in the video, which slightly contradicts the start of the video. We have a My Energy Eddi Solar Diverter which is set to heat our hot water to 60 degrees only from solar power using an emersion heater. I too get 3 showers on a full tank and the Eddi uses 5 to 6kwh of solar power to achieve this, depends on how drained of heat the tank is. By my rough calulations, on a normal tariff, gas is four times cheaper than electricity costing 30p per kWh, using gas it would cost the same 7.5p per kWh to heat the tank as we would pay on the Octopus Go night time Tarriff for electricity. For households on a standard electricity tariff without Solar it would cost four times as much to heat the water compared to gas. I'm obviously missing something here, as heating my water with an emersion heater appears to use roughly the same amount of energy as yours, and I don't have a heat pump! Hope you have a water softener, I've just changed the emersion heater after 11 years, and the old one looked like new. Hard water would prove to be very costly with your system. I'll look forward to your Winter heating costs with great interest! Thank you for contributing to the debate. It appears with Heat pumps there is no clear cut answer. With our hotter summers I would favour a system that would cool as well as heat, popular in other countries but discouraged in the UK.
I like him too but his heat pump videos were the definition of negative and sensationalised.
Watch his original video at 3:40 onwards. The ugly truth one (sure that had a ‘more negative title originally?)
He states “I’ve installed heat pumps and after a few years they’re unhappy as it costs a lot to run and their houses aren’t warm.”
HE installed them.
He then says people who don’t know what they’re doing will whack em in and they’ll all fail.
He’s complaining about himself essentially not installing them properly. Untrained people taking advantage of Gov grant. 🤷♂️
He’s either installed one in an unsuitable house or installed one badly, in a suitable house.
In this case he's very wrong and only carried it on as he got mega views.
@@ElectricVehicleMan Rather than slagging off Roger Bisby, why don't you ask him for more details about the systems he has installed in the past where the recipients have been critical of the running costs and poor performance? Installing systems is one thing; who actually specified the system to be fitted though? Many a builder has been instructed to complete a project designed by 'professionals' which has then turned out to be a disaster. Is that the builder's fault?
@@nectafarious8842 If he was just following instructions (pretty clear he wasn’t as he’s just done a series of videos on them) then that’s even worse as surely you’d want to know why?
“They work in the UK, have done for decades in other countries but because these I’ve done don’t work, I’ll now do a video telling people they don’t”.
It would also show that he’s never done heat calculations required for them if others did the planning.
Think about it.
You build a house.
The house falls down.
You then do a video saying houses don’t work, even though there are millions of people living in them.
Have you seen the videos he did with the heat geeks? Everything technical was answered.
Cannot get my head around that 5kWh
So from an usuage point of view do you have it set heat the rads at particular times i.e. morning before you get up or are they on constantly?
Nice to have an honest appraisal and opinion. Thank you.
I had my Midea ASHP installed in the last 2 weeks of February and it was running during the cold spell at the end of February into March with average temperatures being between 3 and 5 degrees C. For the 12 cold days, that were very much like our winter days, I used 249kWh, so average of 20.75kWh per day. For comparison, the next week was an average of 9C and for those 7 days I averaged 9.28kWH.
Hot water during the summer has been heated to 50C by the ASHP and used either 1 or 2kWh per day.
So far from 24/2 to 24/8 my ASHP has used 802kWh and the heating slowed by mid April to 1 or 2 kWh a day.
We have a 1973 detatched 5 bedroom house and have 270mm of insulation in the roof space alongside a loft conversion that was completed in 2011.
Due to our radiators being 50 years old, we decided to replace them all to get the efficiency and heat transfer. The house was lovely and warm during March and I have set my thermostats up to drop temperature by a few degrees overnight.
We moved from an LPG heating system so have also now freed a much larger space in the garden, where the tank once stood.
Compared to growing cost of LPG ( I was paying £700 before price rises) I am definately saving money.
No your not 😂😂
Good info thanks
Really interesting. In the village I grew up in there is no gas and never will be, so I have been thinking about ASHPs. I like the idea of the Unitower, at least until I saw the size of it. The UK has 10,000s of standard 2 up 2 down terraced houses mostly built from 1880s to about 1940/50s. Fitting the Unitower in one of those will be almost impossible without seriously compromising something else. Is there a smaller alternative?
All those houses had at some point a water cylinder, if you've still got space for a cylinder then you should be able to find a heat pump that works for you.
Yes, lots of options. A 150L slimline hot water tank is not much lager than a combi boiler. There is also the option of a Sunamp phase change heat storage unit which is not much larger than a microwave. I've just fitted a wall-mounted a heat pump on the outside of my 200yr old terrace house with 150L tank in the existing airing cupboard. A ASHP is significantly cheaper to run than an oil boiler or propane tank.
EVM, Are you on Octopus Go or intelligent octopus. It seems you'd be perfectly suited to intelligent octopus as you need a compatible car (your Tesla qualifies) or charger (your Ohme also qualifies). I checked when I renewed my octopus go 2 days ago and its the same rate but you 6 hours of off peak rate as opposed to 4. I would have gone for it but I don't have a compatible car or charger.
Hi EVM how about a video on your expectations before they happen 🤨. expectation on kWh you will use and how much do you expect to shift to off peak rate. And off course how much you expect it to cost to run. But I am looking forward to your heat pump journey
You have a lot more equipment now to maintain, it will be interesting to see the service cost in the future.
And reliability...🤔
Like swapping a boiler for a fridge, I know which one causes me less maintenance headaches.
And outright cost to have installed. We need something similar to combi boiler prices. Not everyone can afford 10-15k for these plus look at how much room these take up
I have to admit, I'm a heat pump sceptic. This system does look a lot better than most of the others I've seen so far though and I can see them catching on if the market moves towards self contained units like this.
You said you're going to wait for the usage data before you can comment about how well the system works but it seems you're already pretty sold on how great they are.
For a sceptic like myself I'd be more likely to believe your figures once you have them if you hadn't made so many claims about how they will work in any property, any climate, etc when you don't yet actually have any experience to back up those claims.
I can watch heat pump expert videos to get their opinions about how good the tech is in broad terms, as an end user it's probably best to stick to your own experience once we get in to winter.
If most of Scandinavia uses heat pumps and has for years, and lots of different houses in the UK also have them, that’s all the evidence needed to prove they can work anywhere. What mine does doesn’t provide proof they’ll work in other climates.
If no one can comment without experience, how can anyone be a skeptic?
@@ElectricVehicleMan I'm not saying you're wrong, it was just a point about your style of presentation. Obviously one approaches the video knowing you have some bias towards the tech (since you've invested your money installing it) but the way you made statements of fact about how they will work anywhere, then later pointing out you're not an expert in the tech made your bias seem larger
I can make statements of fact from research.
The moon orbits the earth. See it’s easy.
Otherwise if you’re saying only an expert can comment, then that means journalists are all bias as they’re not experts in whatever they’re reporting.
If an expert (heat geeks in my case) states something, it doesn’t mean no one else can.
@@ElectricVehicleMan sorry I wasn't trying to start an argument. Just pointing out that to someone like me who isn't sold on it, you seemed to be overly biased towards the tech. The point is you're not a journalist, you're a youtuber and I'm sure most people are here to hear about you're learned experience.
If you want to preach to the converted that's cool, but it would probably be more powerful to convert people who aren't yet convinced.
Who installed your Vaillant heat pump?
As first 4 solar don’t have yours listed on there website. Thanks peter
Sorry if I missed this, but who did you use to spec your system?
"don't trust anyone that tells you heat pumps don't work"..... Didn't you tell us heat pumps don't work a while ago?
I said they did work but given the resources we had at the time, we’ve decided to do other things first. Couldn’t justify the cost based on what I know know was ‘exaggerated’ install quotes.
It’s a journey.
@@ElectricVehicleMan I will let you off! I just re-watched that video and it was based on efficiency and cost.
Hate to be vulgar but how much did the cost come down for you to change your mind?
@@JayBrainstorm123 It was more unexpected money than reduced price. Although not repiping anything helped.
Interesting episode - thanks. We moved into a new build house with an ASHP and solar PV last November, and I had the opportunity to monitor the energy usage through last winter when our solar PV was giving very little. Being a new house it used relatively little energy, but as the ASHP is an electrical heater this was still quite expensive. Even considering the CoP of the heat pump, with the price of electricity being so much more than the price of gas the financial benefits seem marginal, which also seemed to be your conclusion in your video on heat pumps last November when you said "I just can't do it". So my question is - what has changed for you? In my case, I have no regrets at all, especially since I realised that our house was probably using more heat than usual as it is a traditional 'brick and block' construction and was drying out for some of last winter. Also, since last year we have a 9.6kWh battery so I'm interested to see what difference this makes. Like you, we are on Octopus Go since we have an EV and I also use the Go cheap rate to charge our battery in winter when the PV gives little energy. I calculated the additional cost of solar PV and our ASHP to be 4% on the price of the house, which we have easily made back in house price inflation since last November. Why don't all new home buyers insist on PV and heat pumps? Why don't politicians legislate to force builders to add them?
You can't force anyone to do anything .you have the wrong way of thinking. Politicians work for the people. We have to use the democratic system
@@noelburke6224 I'd question your thinking there, Noel. Unfortunately many of our politicians are influenced by lobby groups much more than 'the people', which weakens our democratic system. The construction industry is a very powerful lobby, but they don't seem to be all-powerful in Scotland where solar PV is much more common on new-build homes. Perhaps 'forcing' is the wrong word, but the Scottish planning system seems to be better at 'strongly encouraging' builders to install micro-generation. Why doesn't this happen in England?
@@redrickratae I am a heating engineer and a qualified building contractor 45 years and still in business. We implement all new technologies in our projects. We also provide cost analysis on materials labour and most important is end user running and maintenance cost .plus pay back time and opalescence. We are members of a Academy who have research and development labs we also run real life tests on all appliances to determine the cop and the scop.As for politicians they are liars and parasites, a party to themselves sucking the life out of the citizens and private business to line their own pockets glorified mouthpieces who forget who is there employers. I can write you a best seller on the corruption in the government and civil service in Ireland 🇮🇪
Hi EVM, love the channel. Just wondered if you had a solar diverter such as My Energi Eddi and if that could be used to activate the heat pump for water heating? Also the size of your battery storage. Apologies if these questions have already been asked. What are your typical kWh figures for HW only during this time of the year for just topping up the HW tank rather than from an empty tank. Cheers. James
Unfortunately Eddi wouldn’t run a heat pump. Elements like your kettle or the immersion can be switched on and off rapidly but the HP runs the compressor to generate the pressures to do its thing and it will cause problems being switched on and off as and when. The HP will run more efficiently on a time of day tarrif of or the batteries.
Cool video, but when is your break even point? Do you have a spreadsheet we can see?
I've been sceptical about heat pumps and ended up replacing my 20 year old gas boiler with a like for like replacement last year. Now that cost £2200 last year when gas was a mere 4p a unit and a ashp was likely going to cost £6-8k, and my boiler uses 15 to 20 percent less gas. But now with gas at 15p upward well was I short sited. Be very interested, if you're willing, to see how much power it takes to run the heat pump. What put me off is that for max efficiency it has to run 24/7 And something which can draw 2-3kwh in the winter with prices at 50+p/kwh worried me a lot! Anyway, hope it works out for you.
Not sure about the need to run 24/7 but ours definitely doesn't and has no problems keeping our 4 bed detached house warm over the winter.
@@kiddwong4186 Do you mind saying how many kwh it draws from the grid and how much came from solar (if any) over the winter?
Ours does not run 24/7. It works very well, and we are nearly two years in. The house energy consumption is down 30% in kWh from our gas days.
@@keithhobbs1 ASHP daily consumption is going vary massively depending on size of house, the type of heat distribution system you have (radiator / underfloor / air), your programmed settings and insulation effectiveness. I'd need to dig out the data to give you average kWh numbers through the winter but in terms of costs, I know in the summer our monthly bill is around £30 and in the winter it's £100. We have underfloor heating and the house is occupied most of the time through the day so thermostats are set to at least 18C all the time.
We have 3.2kw solar PV (south facing, Midlands). Daily average output dropped down to 1.6kwh last December (4-5 kWh in November and January) so doesn't help much in the coldest darkest months. This is why we got a battery added to our system just recently.
Our ASHP installers recommended that the heat pump run 24/7 as they were more efficient that way. I was unsure as there would be constant heat loss that would need topping up, nevertheless I tried it. For the first two days of 24/7 it used 60-80kW a day and the house was far too hot at night. I changed to running it only in the evenings and usage dropped to 20-30kW a day in Winter. My experience therefore was that even though it is less efficient to run it when you need it, its considerably cheaper to do so - you just need to start it up a bit earlier than you would with a conventional boiler as the flow temperature is lower and it takes longer to heat the house
Looking forward to the whiteboard of truth break down in the future. First 4 Solar should be installing a home storage battery in September. If that goes well then maybe a HP will be next as boiler is getting on a bit!
Good luck with the First 4 Solar installation - you're going to need it. Worst company I've ever dealt with.
@@chemicalandy3 Did you get your money back?
@@alanbrad3727 I'm still hoping they'll install the battery. I did cancel the order last month when they told me they couldn't get any more batteries this year. They then miraculously said they had one and could fit it within 30 days so I gave them another chance. It was meant to arrive on Friday but unfortunately it didn't.
@@chemicalandy3 Ordered mine at the end of February. Was told 8 to 12 weeks. They did tell me they had the battery but no fitters available so if i paid another 25% they would send it out. I said no! 27weeks later here we are!
@@alanbrad3727 Mine was ordered last December. By February they were unable to give me any idea of an installation date. I was eventually told it would be August and then at the end of August they said no batteries were available and it would be next year.
I have the same tariff as you but lower day rate 34p i dont have an electric car although my son charges his car at my house , by the way did you get the gas supply to your property disconnected and how much did that cost.
Cost and maintenance of your unit? How long would it take to recover these costs against an efficient gas boiler particularly for people of advancing years?
Does it have to recover costs? A kitchen doesn't, a car doesn't, a holiday doesn't?
Since you cannot rely on the 4hrs @ 7.5p cheap night rate for central heating the house in winter, you are fundamentally stuck with the fact that with typical UK tariffs, 1 kWh from electricity costs about 4x that of 1 kWh from gas. So even if this setup does manage to achieve a 400% COP (and you will not on a cold winters day) you might just claw your way back to running cost parity with your old gas boiler! This is the fundamental problem with heat pumps. The 4x cop is cancelled by the 4x tariff difference. The only answer is to drive it with “free” electricity from solar pv which is difficult on a dark January day in the UK.
In the video I never said I got one for financial reasons. I’ll try to make it as cheap as poss but that wasn’t the primary driver.
And gas is getting closer in price too to electric so it is shifting.
In my case (only a few others) I can also use cheap electric from my battery during the day in winter too.
My maths is the same as your workings. A few things also to consider, the home battery can be charged at the 7.5p rate but this is only around 80% efficient on lower voltage systems. Electricity in the future should get cheaper if the government switches green charges from electricity towards gas. I worry too that Octopus may not be so generous in the future and go rates will increase considerably. It's hard to justify a heat pump at present if you have a modern gas boiler, those running oil or electric radiators it makes sense.
Yer that’s the problem we found can’t make figures work yet hopefully the tax on electric will drop and be put on gas then will make sense
@@ElectricVehicleMan but how long will your battery last mid winter when little solar is the big question I’m interested to find out ? As this could make a big difference to running costs 7.5 to 40 p is alot of difference! ? Thanks
For this to work financially, purely from a running costs POV vs a gas boiler - you need a very big battery come winter.....
In winter my current gas setup can use 40 kwh per day on a cold day - just heating the house, ignoring hot water as I use very little of that (only 2-3 kwh per day). So to get any real savings from switching to a heat pump from gas, you need all the electricity being used by the heat pump to be on the cheap 7.5p rate, and that means a massive battery!
Even if you get the energy consumption down to a ~3rd of what the gas boiler used (a cop of 4 is not realistic in winter, more like a cop of 2.5), you are still going to need 15kwh of battery storage just for the heat pump - which is a big battery bank costing a small fortune, around £10K at current prices.
Looks like your original plumber run out of 15mm pipe and just bodged it with 10 mm to finish the job of on time
Are you able to charge your car at the same time as heating the hot water tank on the off peak tariff?
I have to set my boiler at around 65 for the heating, I tried lower but the house just wasn't getting warm enough. Not an issue with the radiators as they are all about 30% more BTU than needed, so much insulation in the attic that I have doubts that's the issue. So I can only assume for my house there is a general heat leak because it's over 100yrs old, probably through the walls, or the boiler that was here when we moved in isn't strong enough. I'd like a heat pump but I have concerns that if a combi boiler can't do the job what hope does a heat pump have.