Would be a fair comparison if the gas boiler was designed to run at the same flow temperature as the heat pump with a brand new Viessman on weather comp
Finally someone who takes into account the daily temperature. Thank You. Here in Alberta Canada there's a half dozen different charges on my electric bill usually about 60% of price per kwh. Last bill for 700 kwh was $300.00 CAD
more or less the same results here in the Netherlands, including the weather correction, I come to around 10% savings. But since I let the heat pump run during the day instead of (random) at night, the savings increase to 25% (despite the temperature being set 1 degree higher to compensate for the decline) last night for example -4 and during the day + 12, cop at night about 2 and during the day 4.5!
Ah interesting. So with a low temperature the cop drops substantially which is what I expected. I wonder how much cop we would see if we used a gas boiler when it was really cold and reducing the power of the Heat pump so it would only be used when the outside temperatures made sense to use it.
The success of any low grade heat source is dependant on minimising losses. If you can insulate then all is hunky dory. Then you have to factor in the return on outlay. I think a lot of people have done that calculation and decided an ASHP is too expensive right now. As far as I'm concerned their is too much hype flying around and I'm certainly not changing my six year old gas boiler any time soon. The company I worked for installed their first ASHP in 2005 in a bungalow complex that had no gas and no space for oil tanks. We used the ASHP solely to heat the hot water cylinder and an in line electric heater to run the radiators. We also had a Vaillant GSHP at the depot, and that worked well, but cost a merry fortune to install. For now I'm an interested spectator as far as ASHPs are concerned as my house is very difficult to insulate with solid stone walls from 1885.
Get a heat loss calculation done you might be surprised. That is assuming you have double glazing and decent loft insulation. Our stone built cottage circa 1820 is fine with an ASHP. We didn't have to change anything as we already had cast iron rads. We are also saving as we have no gas standing charge. We also have solar which helps and I think a home battery will be with us soon as we can then utilise fully the cheap overnight rates for electricity. At that point I will add some more solar as it is so cheap.
The success of ANY heating system is dependent on insulation - thermodynamics does not know what your heat source is. If the heat loss from your home is 7KW at -2C then you need to introduce 7KW to maintain an internal temperature of 20/21C. Your choice then is how you deliver that and how much you will pay for each KWH. Insulation reduces heat loss and if you are insulating substantially can reduce it a lot - say from 7 to 5KW and this can enable you to select a smaller heat pump or boiler which will save both capital and running costs. However going smaller has never been a thing in the gas boiler industry and even today boilers are being installed in domestic properties that do not only heat the house - but could in addition heat the houses of three or four of the neighbours houses too. So, heating and heat loss and how you deal with it is not a religion - it’s thermodynamics, flow in pipes and good design.
Not sure if you mentioned it, but did you take into account the installation costs. Assuming you had a serviceable gas boiler, this was removed and you paid for a new heat pump system (assuming it wasn't free). I understand that the average installation cost is around 16k. Therefore how long (in monthly savings) will it take to pay for itself? If it cost 16k and you save £100 per month you are looking at 13 years to pay for it. Do you have these figures?
It didn't cost anywhere near £16K to install. It was less than half that, but I didn't give the figures because I was having other work done at the time that I would've had done even if I'd got a new gas boiler. As the engineers were there and I was paying for their time it's impossible to isolate the install costs for the heat pump. Suffice to say that once a heat pump is installed, future installations will be as cheap or cheaper than a gas boiler and an ASHP has a longer life than a gas boiler. In my opinion over a long period of ownership where you may replace the heating device a couple of times (including the initial installation) the overall install costs for either solution will work out about the same whereas the running costs of an ASHP and the environmental and health benefits are immeasurably better over that period.
@@TheRamblyChannel Thanks for the reply. I have just had an assessment done as I discovered I could get the entire system including 10 solar panels totally free under Government grants as I'm a pensioner. However the assessor has now said that because my current gas (LPG) system is 8mm microbore every room will need the floors lifted to install minimum of 15mm pipe work. Other channels also appear to have conflicting information on this, some saying the pipe size doesn't matter and others saying minimum of 22mm. Did you have micro bore or have you heard about these conflicting issues. Cheers
@@TheRamblyChannelcompletely wrong, the average install will cost around 10k as many people will need significant upgrades, any houses with micropore pipework, or poor insulation for example or under sized radiators. The average boiler install is about 2.5k. The average lifespan for a vaillant ecotec plus combi or system is about 20 yrs, the older turbomax was 25yrs + once the government grants run out people are not going to enjoy the price difference between gas and heat pumps. A Vaillant Arotherm costs about 6.4k and even with no additional work, still has a higher install cost than a gas boiler. I work on these things everyday. It's madness, ASHP are great when installed correctly and do work fine, but the cost difference for the majority of people is just way to much. Plus if you're going from a combi boiler you're going to have to buy a cylinder as well and find some where to put it. The biggest question I always get is "we want to get rid of cylinder to create more space," so this is going to be another factor than massively puts off many people, when they realise they are going to lose their airing cupboard.
@@dunboy7874 I don't know where to start with this. It slightly worries me that you say you're an installer...! My ASHP is a Vaillant AroTherm+ and it didn't cost me anywhere close to the figure you quoted. Perhaps your figure is for a 12kW version? Mine is a 7kW and they also do a 5kW. The boiler lifespan you quote is optimistic. To be fair the boiler I replaced had lasted 18 years but had an efficiency of around 80%. You can't argue with efficiency stats. A boiler is 95% max dropping over time with an ASHP anywhere between 300% and 500% depending on the time of year (and that won't drop at any point during its servicable lifetime). Yes it costs more to install in 2023 - something that will (and already is) improving. However, with the state of the planet right now we MUST move to greener technology at pace. If we don't, the price difference will be the last of our collective worries...
@@TheRamblyChannel You don't know where to start? Well, addressing any of the issues I mentioned would of been a good place to start. The majority of homes have combi boilers, so let's say they go for the same 7 kW arotherm as you, that's 4.5k for the unit the cylinder is anywhere between £600-1k plus expansion vessels and valves, pumps etc. That's going to be around 6k at least in materials, plus labour. Plus any other upgrades required, which the majority of homes will need. 20 yrs is not optimistic for a decent gas boiler, if you have it serviced and test water quality every year, which you will need to do for a ASHP anyway 20 yrs is easily achievable. I know this because i see them on a daily basis. Also why would it worry you if I'm an installer? Lol don't worry I don't install them anymore. I'm not an ASHP hater anyway, like I said in my previous message, if installed correctly by a competent installer and the system is well designed they work very well, and can be cheaper than a gas boiler to run. On average it will take 10-15 yrs before you see any real savings though, unless you have a decent solar system in place. My argument is that is not a solution for the majority of homes in the UK, we have a lot of old housing stock, and most people don't have the required amount of money to spend to get their home to the required standard to make heat pumps work effectively. Also your ridiculous points of about saving the plant are completely unfounded, if the UK went completely net 0 tomorrow it wouldn't make a blind bit of difference, we contribute 1% of global co2 immisions, China increase by more than this every year alone. To guilt trip people into spending thousands to literally make, no difference is so disingenuous and dishonest in beggers belief, but i get it, everyone like to virtue signal to heavens these days in fear of getting cancelled. 🙃🤦♂️
I am a retired heating engineer of 45 years, I worked mainly with gas, also some oil, LPG, electric and S/fuel; I notice you did not take humidity into account, which can have a large effect. Your results are what I expected, as the temperature got lower the heat pump struggled.
Fair point. The humidity levels aren't something I was able to track at the time, however I now have that capability. I wouldn't say that the heat pump struggled! It worked harder, yes, but it was well within its capabilities and was keeping the house nice and warm.
This is all okay but what temp did you run your system at and for how long? I find many people with low bills run it for a short time at 18 degrees. No thanks. 18 at night and 21/22 day time.
So how much did you pay for the heat pump and then the installation? Plus I understand you have to buy new radiators and probaby additional insulation. So adding all this up and taking into account the government grant, was the cost around £14k? My new Worcester Bosch boiler fully fitter was £3,700 last October. That gives you a difference of £7,800. So saving 16:48 £100 per month over the two systems during wintertime, you’ll get a breakeven over about 16yrs. That’s not particularly good and heat pumps, from the various RUclips videos I’ve watched, struggle to heat properties above 18°c. That’s not particularly good methinks. ❄️❄️
What videos actually *show* a heat pump struggling to heat above 18C? If they do then the system has been poorly designed. New rads and additional insulation should be seen as a separate cost, as that'll benefit gas boilers as well, and become even more relevant if the UK ever switches to hydrogen - or more levies get put on gas, and taken off electricity.
I didn't pay anywhere near £14K. I don't know where you got that from? Insulation is important for any source of heating. I didn't have mine changed, nor did I need to install new radiators. I replaced a couple that were too small for the room, but that would've been the case for a gas boiler too. My house was perfectly warm in what turned out to be a very cold winter 2022/23. The cost was more than getting a new gas boiler, but to me installing a gas boiler now is like taking up smoking, wearing flared trousers or going to a tupperware party - they've had their day and we need to move on to newer greener, healthier technologies.
What temperature did you set for heating during the 3 month period- was it different in ‘21 to ‘22? The thermostat setting needs to be the same during the yearly timeframes. What changes to the radiator system were needed? What was the total cost of buying and installing the heat pump? Big questions…🤔
Hi Tom. The heating was set to the same temperature both years, i.e. 21 degrees. That seems to be my comfortable level. If you watch my heat pump installation video I run through all the changes that were made to the existing system so that should answer that question. I haven't mentioned price in any of my videos for several reasons. Everyone's case is different and the cost will vary from person to person. When you install any new tech it will cost more than a simple swap out of old tech, however any future replacements of the new tech will be similarly "swap out cheap" so it's a nonsense comparison to make. I hope you can understand my reasonings for not including it. Thanks for watching!
It's something I intend to do in some form or another. My original plan was to do a 6-month video and then a year, however when I went to pull the data from my old energy supplier it was no longer accessible. It leaves doing a comparison a little tricky!
Interesting that you have decided to omit the cost of installing your heat pump system in relation to the cost of a modern more efficient boiler. Can you divulge the cost of the work involved which would be relevant to me in my current circumstance. Cheers.
We have a setback temp at night of 17⁰c and 21⁰c during day. Our 7kW Daikin was originally setup in Jun 2023 with weather comp set at 50⁰@-2⁰/35⁰@18ext. In Dec when it was below zero the house was too warm and we tweaked the settings to 50⁰@-15⁰/30⁰@18 and this maintains 20⁰c internally and system runs contantly without cycling as advised by Heat Geek. SÇOP since Jun 22 3.62 heat and 2.31 DHW. We have solar so running costs looking good.
Hi. It would be a miracle if temperature in my house was kept at 20'C all the time. In coldest days of the year temperature in living room is low =18'C. I'm not interested in sCOPs or COPS. I want my house to be warm as be ere when we had a gas boiler.
After living for 35yrs in a home with gas blown air heating, (downstairs only) I had a heatpump and solar panels fitted, I find that house is warm enough with 19°C setting. It is Cavity wall insulated, and loftspace is up to spec, but maybe those years of no heat upstairs, have made 19° feel toasty.
Dispensing with gas altogether and using an induction hob would remove the cost of the gas standing charge too. It makes no difference in your methodology but no one ever considers the cost of the pump running in a CH system and in my case it is almost 300 watts, because of the long runs of pipe work. And for those running BEVs with access to preferential rates of overnight electricity can make a huge saving by not using the the heat pump during the day between 05:30 and 23:30 in my case April to October. Heat pumps are very efficient and maintain a an even warmth throughout the home. Anyone with central heating installed in the 1960s to 1980s with a house built during that time might find their radiators don’t need resizing, but keeping the flow temperature low ~ 35 degrees will save most money by raising the COP closer to 4 or even 5 in the best circumstances. Swapping to double radiators type 22 helps improve convection heating.. And once you have a system installed when a heat pump fails it should be no more work than swapping out a gas boiler. The heat pump should last 20 years so no more expensive than swapping cheap gas boilers!
Vaillant ecotec 832, 1.5k average life span 20yrs, vaillant 12kw arotherm plus avg life estimate 20 yrs 6.4k 🤔 not really the same price. less than 1/4 of the price lol
Excellent honest video very well presented. The COP figures were quite surprising. Probably worth having if combined with solar and a battery where you can store the electricity from the panels or from cheaper overnight rates
Thank you for your kind words. I agree. Solar has moved on a lot since I had my system installed and adding more panels and particularly a battery is something I want to do (hopefully later this year). There's no doubt that with smarter use of when you can use your energy, the benefits of having generated it in the first place go up significantly. And with an ASHP (and an EV) as part of my set up now, anything I can do to maximise the use of my solar energy will be helpful. Watch this space - lots more on exactly that topic to come. Thanks for watching!
Thinking of getting a heat pump as my Worcester boiler is 21 years old and needing new version and radiators With a grant seems good advice Thankyou for looking into this
It would be a good choice, I'm sure. Do your homework, get a few quotes and see where it takes you. I've had mine now for coming up to 2 years (in September) and I don't regret it for a second.
My concern is pretty simple: energy demand. In Finland, the one million ASHP now installed pull just over 3GW from their grid, during the coldest winter months (and the houses in Finland as super-insulated). If we scale that up to replace 24 million gas boilers in the UK, that would translate to (roughly) 70GW during a "beast from the east" event. When you consider that current UK demand is 43GW, and we have a maximum capacity of about 50GW - it's clear that something is not going to fly. OK, we have offshore wind, however, when you consider that all of the UK wind production is set to peak at 30GW by 2030, while Sizewell and Hinkley C are set to add (maybe) 6GW to the picture - I'm really struggling to see where the extra power is going to come from. When you add electric transport (private and commercial), agriculture and food processing into the picture (someone has to bake the break and cook the beans), we're estimated to be looking at a further 100GW increase in demand - bring peak UK demand to over 170GW. Again - where is this going to come from and where is the grid infrastructure required to carry it? My guess is that it's never going to happen and the UK National Grid will halt the rollout of ASHP towards the end of 2024. The question then will be if existing installations will need to be removed. Again, my guess is YES
Hi Alexander. Thanks for your feedback. I welcome debate on all green technologies as that's how we will educate people and correct the great deal of disinformation that's out there on this subject. National Grid have run the numbers and the combination of both ASHP and EVs are not going to put any strain on the grid either now or at any point in the future. They know what they're talking about and to directly quote them "There is definitely enough energy and the grid can cope easily." Find out more straight from the horses mouth here: www.nationalgrid.com/stories/journey-to-net-zero-stories/can-grid-cope-extra-demand-electric-cars and for the full UK perspective on both heat pumps and EVs from someone at National Grid check out this video: ruclips.net/video/5uG4xv3oLeQ/видео.html Case closed. 😊
Very informative. I don’t feel I can go down the ASHP route until there is price stability between gas and electric per kilowatt. In July 2023 electricity is already back to 4.5 x gas so a heat pump will be definitely more expensive to run. Do we need some sort of price control to say the difference should never be more than 3x? But such state interference would anger many people.
It’s a fair comment. Ironically the high price of electricity is entirely down to the cost of gas. If electricity was priced based on how much is costs to produce the cost would plummet. Unfortunately that’s going to take time but I hope it happens eventually. My heat pump is so efficient that even at the current price levels it’s still cheaper to run than a gas boiler. And more importantly it’s far more environmentally sound, something that is just as important. Thanks for watching! 😊
That was interesting but needs updating. January to March would be interesting as much more heat would be required. Being a suspicious person I wonder if those figures would be favourable. Also, how many years of the saving is required to pay for the additional installation cost?
Thanks for your feedback. My intention was to make a Jan - Mar follow up video, however when I switched suppliers I lost access to the data I needed for a detailed comparison. Totally my fault - I should've captured the data before I switched. However, the weather was MUCH colder in December than it was at any point during the following 3 months. When it comes to additional installation cost, that's a reasonable question but is perhaps comparing apples to oranges. There are additonal costs - but these are one offs. You'd have to pay initial costs if you were having a brand new gas system fitted to a house that didn't have one. The cost of updating the heat pump when it turns up its toes will likely be cost comparable to replacing a gas boiler and that's the important metric IMHO. For the most sustainable future, we're going to have swallow the install costs initially. They will come down in time.
What are the annual service costs for an ASHP system? How often do they need to be calibrated to ensure they are efficient? At what cost? What is the average repair cost?
I have no idea about repairs as there's not very much to go wrong in there, frankly. It comes with an epic multi-year warranty which just goes to show how unlikely it is to break any time soon. Servicing is a bit of a shame, as the costs are higher than gas boiler servicing. I doubt it has anything to do with the complexity of the job - it takes just as much time (properly less) to do and there's a not a huge amount of work undertaken from what I can see. It must be purely down to the fact that there are fewer engineers trained to do it and so that pushes the cost up. I'm paying twice as much for servicing as I was for my old gas boiler. However on the flip side, I'm saving way more than enough money switching from Gas to ASHP to cover the difference. YMMV.
My boiler packed in years ago now i just use an electric converter heater. Your increase in electric use in Dec 2022 isca great insight into the basic running cost of the pump and I'm shocked. I was considering it but no way in the world im going to with that figure
I've been running a heat pump for 15 months now including during one of the coldest winters we've had for years and it's been significantly cheaper to run than my old gas boiler. Just sayin'.
@@angleseyandy9110 My neighbour of an identical 3 bed semi has ASHP while I have gas. We ran a back to back test with same heating settings over winter of last year and his bill was significantly less than mine (over £280). When you factor in the fact that gas (as a finite resource) will go up relative to electric, it feels to me that now might be the best time to make the most of available grants. Just saying 😂
I still believe that those who are sold heat source pumps will be offered routes of compensation, by the “were you miss sold”industry which will bloom from this, just like “ISA savings and mortgages”, “PPI”, “Diesel emissions”, et all. In general most countries can’t and are not producing enough electricity, and even if they did haven’t improved the infrastructure to support the current usage. Plus that which is supplied is being generated via gas fired generators. All we are doing is outsourcing the production. In 2021-2022 and again in 2022-2023 people where being paid to not consume as much electricity at times?
20 years ago UK was using about 60GW peak per day, currently its about 35GW (@40GW in Winter). So plenty space on grid. Heat pumps are not new technology, although relatively new to UK they've been in use and development for past 60 years in Scandinavia & USA to name but two. So unlikely there'll be a PPI type scandal. Although there might be an installer scandal where systems have been badly designed and under or over spec'd (just as bad if not worse), systems that are not fit for purpose. Typically > 50% renewable generation on grid, and that rising each day. Last year renewables provided on average 33.7% of UK electricity per day, some much better, some worse. And for each kW of solar PV generated at a house, that's 1kW less needing generated from gas. With heat pumps converting that to typically 3.5kW of heat it becomes a win win situation.
@@_Dougaldog is that why we are being offered money back not to use electricity on set days and times, to reduce load? As that is the case I would suggest there is BS coming from some where and it is not here!
@@markwierzbicki5307 you should switch to Octopus Energy, where often you get paid to consume energy - where generation exceeds demand, and consumption is needed to balance the grid.
@@michaelwinkley2302 that sounds great, the more you use, the less you pay! They even pay you to use it to balance the grid! Sounds Incredible! All that because they own the power generators. So which electricity generators are owned and run by Octopus Energy?
@@markwierzbicki5307 not sure what the point of your question is - it is a fact that if you're on Octopus Agile tariff and there's negative wholesale prices in the day ahead market, you'll get paid to consume energy during the negative pricing period - makes zero difference who is generating the excess electricity.
The biggest issue is still the up front cost for the kit and the installation, then possibly/probably an upgrade of radiators. Most people don't have the spare cash to spend on an install and the grants are tailing off or limited to people with dire circumstances. You have to work out the pay back time, and frankly for many it just isn't worth it. I am all for saving the planet but I ain't going to be in hock to do it.
Grant has just increased in England from £5k to £7.5k to all owner occupiers, but on a first come first serve basis. And interest free loans to cover upfront costs. Grants for those claiming any benefits is a separate issue. Not many work out a payback time for the new kitchen, bathroom or TV et al.. Or the £3k foreign holiday 😈
Here in Finland our apartment complex (303 flats altogether) is heated with radiators. The energy source used to be from a combined heat and power electricity power station that used to run on coal but nowadays uses mixed bio fuels including wood chips and lignin waste from the paper mills. So no fossil fuels. Steam from the power station is fed by underground pipes to buildings all over town where heat exchangers capture the heat. But now we are switching to ground source heating and solar panels fixed to the roofs. Life expectancy of the system is 25 years. It is funded by a bank loan that is estimated to be paid back in 8 years from the savings over the previous system. So in 8 years time we will all be paying less for our heat and hot water.
Incidentally, Finland has lots of wind power from wind farms sitting high above the forest canopy in areas not heavily populated by people so no complaints about noise. Electricity costs are low (about 13 cents per KwH) about half of which is nuclear, one quarter wind and one quarter hydro. So again very low carbon footprint. The heating system can be tuned to the electricity price so we generate heat during the off-peak period and not during the morning and early evening peaks, so it balances the system load which is a national objective.
So interesting to hear. Sounds like great progress where you are. Each move to a more sustainable heating system is another tick in the box. Thanks for sharing!
Excellent video and detailing the benefits very clearly. I found it interesting and informative. However... Whilst I appreciate your desire to be green, for the majority of people , I would suggest, it's about keeping warm and affording the whole thing. I have a 3 bed detached built in 1989 and the ground floor is micro bore of 10mm. As flow rate is key this restricts this severly. Upstairs is 15mm so that OK but two installers have recommended replacing the 10mm with 15mm pipe. With a concrete floor and expensive flooring to rip up and replace my quotes are around £15-16k. Simply out of the question. The initial cost is prohibitive without those issues and I wish you could be clear about your costs excluding extra work done of course. This is the whole problem with the "smugness" that surrounds this across the green agenda. Its Ok for the well or comfortably well off. The majority of people can't afford to virtue signal their way to heating their homes. We are simply not there yet in terms of technology vs costs. Maybe for most running costs over 10-15 years will be cheaper but paying so much up front is just not feasible or realistic. I like the principal and would have one tomorrow is the cost was £5-7k. But its not, again for most. Don't get me wrong I think the video was superb and I am much more comfortable if I move to a house that has one. But if the point if making us all greener to "save the planet" which given the UKs minimal output of CO2 anyway will have near on zero impact in reality then this whole net zero thing really is nothing more than a patronising, cultist culture by those who can afford it anyway and resolutely and flat earth like listen only one side of the argument/debate.
Well written. The unwritten, unsaid and unmentioned elephant in the the room is the exorbitant cost of “green” systems. The costs include purchase of the heat pump, plumbing, potentially new radiators and pipework, electrical installation and set-up, potentially a heat store for hot water and the we have the costs of running the system. No matter what the virtue signalling greenies say, these things are not cheap. So how will the poor afford these things? Who pays for social housing? Where will the additional electrical generation come from? The shouty greenie brigade are really good at spending OUR money and not providing answers. Remember, nothing we do will change ever change anything as our CO2 emission is negligible.
This. Let's not forget all the virtue signallers going with their electric cars which will cause blackouts this coming winter by causing too high a demand on the network. We got away last winter with two shutdowns in our area but can't see that this year. Still, firing up a coal powered station is so much better for the environment than an efficient gas boiler or 70mpg diesel car...😂
An overlooked cost on an ashp is the £250 average annual service price vs half the price or less for a gas boiler. This equates to 1250 to 2500 saved over 10 to 20 years. Will an ashp last near the coast with salt air? Do they least dirty stains on the house over time where they pull air in from the rear?
Service costs are a fair point, however this is a supply and demand issue and as they become more common costs will start to even out. The heat pump I purchased is one that is supposed to cope with salt air well and after 2 years it's looking like new, so so far so good! No dirty stains anywhere either. I've said it before in comments and in videos and I'll say it again here. A gas boiler is dirty technology causing climate changing damage and reducing the health of the population. A heat pump is much cleaner (even if it uses "dirty" electricity) and as the grid becomes ever more greener, so does the heat pump. A gas boiler will always be polluting, dirty and life-span reducing. When you consider it in those terms, a few quid here or there really isn't a big deal IMHO.
Was the gas totals in 2021 including a gas water boiler? And in 2022 was the electric totals including an electric water boiler / tankless electric water boiler?
Thanks for that. Interesting to hear your figures. You never mentioned if the thermostat had been changed to a different temperature or duration setting. Also was your old boiler a condensing boiler. And do you have underfloor heating or radiators. You mentioned cooking but didn't say about hot water production. Otherwise it was good for an ordinary home owner.
Thanks for your feedback and apologies for not explaining things in more detail. It's probably because I have a companion video where I talk about the installation and that covers most of your points. I have radiators (no underfloor heating). My old boiler was condensing. My thermostat is set to 21 degrees as was the old one with the gas boiler. The ASHP has a setback temp of 18 degrees. My hot water was cylinder based with the gas boiler (which is a little unusual but I live in a chalet bungalow so that was the best option for water pressure). The ASHP has a new water cylinder that's more efficient than the old one. Space wise all the equipment takes up less space if you don't count the new pipework that's gone in the loft because that was in an area that was previously boarded up! I cut a new door in the stud wall. If you watch my installation video you'll see more about how it's been set up. It's not a technical video so aimed at the home owner. Thanks for watching!
After installing my gas combi boiler and hydronic air handler, I am saving 30-40% and my house is very warm and comfortable at 22 celsius all winter. I didn’t need a government subsidy because it was way cheaper then a cheat pump.
It's interesting how differently this equation plays out in various parts of the world. In the US, we replaced our 12 year old, failed electric hot water heater with a model that includes a heat pump on top, with conventional heating elements inside the unit. After various rebates and incentives, the net cost difference was about $400 more than a conventional replacement, similar to the one that failed. Our total electricity cost, year over year, dropped by right around $18/mo, for an annual savings of $216. In two years time the additional cost of the model with a heat pump will have payed for itself in savings. Presuming it lasts another 10 years after that, my math says I will have reduced my cost by over $2,000. When you consider that the cost of electricity will likely increase during that time, the saving will probably be greater, or at the very least adjusted for inflation. We also have an ASHP as part of our HVAC system, which has lowered our propane usage considerably, during the shoulder seasons.
That's interesting to hear. Unfortunately the current administration in the UK is largely funded by the fossil fuel industry and if they'd like to sue me for saying that then I'd welcome the opportunity to discuss the matter with them further in the courts. 😁
@@MarkAAshdown - Are you implying that this RUclips video is part of a "scientific channel", or are you suggesting that the producer of the video stick to facts and figures?
@@TheRamblyChannel - That doesn't really make sense, because they're pushing heat pumps even harder in the UK than they are in the US, which will cut into the bottom line of the fossil fuel industry.
I'm not a heating engineer so am not qualified to advise. However, my pipes are probably about that and it works with mine. Definitely get some professional advice.
I used a local supplier as I already use them. Maintenance is fine as the Heat Pump has to be placed away from the wall and have clearance all around it so servicing will be a breeze. Internally, you need some components to be installed and how accessible these are will depend on your home, for me most were placed in the loft and an airing cupboard and can be easily accessed for servicing. I hope that helps. Thanks for watching!
The insulation in my home is OK, but could probably be better. It's something I'll revisit in the near future for sure. My solar system is a small one (1.6kW) so although it helps with the heat pump and often gives me free hot water it's not going to give me free heating. I want to add more panels and a battery and then things will be very different. At that point I'll make a comparison video where I'll be able to directly see what difference a modest solar and a battery will make to the running costs.
Yes, in fact I'd go as far as to say that having a nice constant heat without the fluctuations you experience with gas has made it far more comfortable. When I had a gas boiler, I'd find my skin would crack in a few places during the winter. Painful! Since getting an ASHP the problem has gone away - that's over 2 winters now. I put it down to the level heat in the house rather than the up and down of heating with gas.
The setback Temperature should never be any more than 3 degrees below the normal heating temp . By setting the system up like this it gives you even more efficiency as you're always keeping a good thermal mass in the property and the heat pump doesn't have to do harsh warm ups
Thanks Terry. After I made this video I shifted my set-back temp back up to 189 degrees. My COP calculations have been around 4.7 over the last few months and it alll seems to be going OK. As you've already worked out, I'm no expert on such matters so am learning all the time! Thanks very much for your feedback.
It's not something I've tried! To be honest, that's down to your hot water system and not specifically the heat pump. If you have a hot water cylinder that's large enough to hold the water required then the heat pump can certainly heat that up! Perhaps speak to Heat Geeks as they're good experts on such things (tell them I sent you - they won't know who I am though!)
That's irrelevant in my opinion. The first time you install any replacement technology for anything it will always cost more than swapping whatever is there currently with a new model. But that doesn't mean replacing like-for-like is the right thing to do. It definitely isn't when it comes to anything that uses fossil fuels. That said, I believe that over its lifetime my ASHP will almost certainly be cheaper overall (even factoring in the installation costs) than running a new gas boiler over the same period, provided that the energy markets are sorted out in the next few years. But even if that doesn't happen, the worst case scenario is that I should break even. And even if that doesn't happen, I know I've done the right thing for my home, the planet and the air we breath and at the end of the day, that's the most important thing.
Some great comparison, the big problem is we are being forced to play a game that we have no idea what the rules are ,and that's how the GOV shaft us every time , as they are also doing with electric cars
The move to electric cars is happening despite of, not because of, government. Your conspiracy theory is misplaced. Electrification offers us the opportunity to bring down our carbon footprint, reducing the impact on the environment contributing to climate change and also improve the state of human health - we breath in some pretty horrible stuff from gas boiler and car emissions. For me it's a no brainer and has absolutely nothing to do with whichever bunch of charlatans are currently in Downing Street. Thanks for watching!
@TheRamblyChannel Climate change BS , Not driven by people ,its a planetary cycle nothing more nothing less .stop believing the crape your fed like sheep
@@TheRamblyChannelrubbish the government knew about unobtainable costs for the energy transition to Met Zero. . The proof is in their latest energy bill. Even the heading of it is enough on its own to be a lot of money
I've been offered on a grant.. Loft insulation, Cavity wall insulation, Ventilation upgrades, Air source heat pump, Solar PV Should i take and get rid of gas altogether? My house was build in 1965 and needs repointing so I'm worried about damp. Thanks
It's difficult to say... I'm no expert and every case will be different. All I would say is to make sure that whoever you're dealing with has all the necessary qualifications and certifications to offer those services. Sadly, there are plenty of cowboys out there. On the face of it, this sounds perfect. Insulation is top of the list for things to do to reduce bills and energy use. I'm also a big fan of Solar PV and ASHP (both have been excellent for me). Just do as many checks as you can, speak to people who have used that company and can genuinely recommend them, compare the costs and savings (and make sure they're checked and verified). Basically, do your homework as you would with any major undertaking like this. Good luck!
@TheRamblyChannel thank you. I'm worried about getting cavity wall insulation if I've got some damp as I've heard it can make it worse. But I'll do some checks of the company anyway
Whuch one works , a gas boiler or a heat pump.? Well we got the answer last December 2022. The temperature went down to minus 8 or more for a sustained period and i had to lend a friend in a new house with a heat pump 2 electric radiators . His heat pump was useless.
Perhaps your friend's unit is broken or wasn't installed correctly. The temperature here dropped to minus 10 during last winter. I had no problem with my heat pump keeping me nice and toasty. It may be as simple as his flow temperature needing to be tweaked by the installer. 🤷♂️
Interesting presentation and video, thank you for taking the time to do it. I realise this was several months ago but if you want to satisfy yourself on a more ‘scientific’ approach you really need to normalise your data for degree days. Hopefully you are now running on an optimised weather compensation curve with no room influence.
Im thinking of replacing my combi with a heat pump, so this was all very interesting! Did you need to replace radiators too, or did you have underfloor heating? I've already swapped out my gas hob for an induction one (love it!!!), and paying the standing charge for gas is begining to grate a little for the 9 months of the year when I hardly use it!
Hi Martin. I made a video about the installation and I talk about exactly that subject! You can watch it here: ruclips.net/video/IdajIk1WNO8/видео.html I agree 100% about the gas standing charge. I'm seriously thinking of getting an induction hob (if they do it as part of a Range sized appliance) and then I can get the gas cut off. 😊
You'll get a significantly higher cop with underfloor heating so its a good upgrade to do at the same time especially if you value low heating costs in future over the cost of install today. Similarly If you install insulation you also win twice with a heat pump vs just once with gas. You have a reduced annual heating demand (same as with gas) but also a higher cop - assuming your heat pump heating controls are setup correctly.
@@nickflynn666 All good points. My property isn’t suitable for underfloor heating but proves that heat pumps work fine with radiators if that’s your only option. Insulation is important. Mine is not bad but could probably be better so it’s something I will look into having redone if the opportunity presents itself. Thanks for your wise words 👍🏻
The problem is the pollution caused by the gas you're burning and the toxic fumes coming out the flue. These shorten the life span of your family and neighbours. I don't doubt it's cheaper to install initially, but that's not comparing apples with apples. That cost factor won't be the case in the long term and frankly whatever the costs, personally I'd rather not be responsible for posioning people so that we can all live a bit longer.
And if it's typical it will add 2 Tonnes of CO2 per year to atmosphere along with a few other nasties. Domestic gas heaters in UK produce more CO2 than cars...
Yep. You're very likely correct about that. This is very much a learning experience for me and I discovered soon after I made that decision that the fallback (sometimes called setback) temperature is nothing to do with frost protection. Avoiding the heat pump having to work too hard (i.e. heat up quite a few degrees quickly) will indeed keep the costs down. My setback temperature has been set to 18 degrees now for some time, which is 3 degrees lower than my normal room temperature of 21 degrees.
Can you put a system in that currently has microbore pipework for all radiators. My property is an 18th century stone house where standard 15mm pipes are not possible.
That's a great question. I've heard that microbore can be a problem, but I'm no way qualified enough to comment. I suggest you contact a heating engineer to discuss this. It's worth getting a few opinions as there's mixed knowledge out there even from the professionals. Thanks for watching!
My last gas boiler service (in September 2021) was £85. My first heat pump service (in September 2023) was £210. Quite a difference. To be fair, the plumber I was using for my gas boiler servicing had low overheads and was probably not charging the going rate. However, the ASHP service was a lot more than I was expecting. It may simply be the case that engineers for heat pumps are thin on the ground and this will enivitably put the cost up until that changes.
Are you in your EV yet? We're looking to purchase a used VW ID.3. seems to tick all of our boxes. We do not have off street parking but a friend has offered us the use of his driveway for charging. Much cheaper than public charging. 👍
Yes, I've had the new EV for a month now - hopefully a video will be on the channel before too long. The ID.3 is a lovely car - you won't be disappointed, I'm sure. Public charging is expensive but OK for the odd top up or when you have no choice on a long journey. I'm charging up paying full rate as the cheap overnight rates don't make sense for me because of my heat pump. Overall it would cost me much more. But even paying 34p per kWh it's still way cheaper than petrol or diesel.
@@TheRamblyChannel is that right? You could choose the hot water cylinder to heat up on the cheap rate too , maybe that would offset the heating increase
@@TheRamblyChannel Petrol hybrids are slightly more expensive per mile than EVs at that price point, but the capital difference in price between an ID3 and a Corolla more than makes up for that. The EV will eventually beat a petrol hybrid, but it will take a very long time.
Hmm. That 1.5 degree outside temperature will make a real difference to adhp efficiency. In November the temperature difference was even more skewed towards the heat pump. What's telling is that the efficiency of a heat pump drops significantly when it gets cold. Yes, there's still energy to be had but it takes more energy input to get it. And let's be honest this would have been more telling had this been over January, February and March. The statement that they get 3 X the energy input drops to around 1:1 at zero degrees. This is an interesting video but it does dodge the coldest time of the year.
Hi Mark Thanks for your feedback. On the contrary, there were some extremely cold temperatures during the review period. Perhaps you didn't watch the entire video? It was far colder across much of December than it was at any point during the following three months. My COP figures were incorrect in this video - I'd been given the wrong method of calculating it. In actual fact, the COP was as better, as the following updated list shows:- (some of September) - October 2022 - COP = (590 + 163) / 163 = 4.62 November 2022 - COP = (1091 + 286) / 286 = 4.81 December 2022 - COP = (2077 + 717) / 717 = 3.9 As you can see, the ASHP was generating close to 5 times the energy input for most of this period and only dropped just below 4 times during the coldest month I've experienced since purchasing it (December 2022). However you look at it, I'm a long way from 1:1 even when it was -7 outside (which it was for much of December).
Also when the temperature is less than minus 5 C the unit will start to freeze up which then the unit will go into reverse mode to consume electric to defrost the unit, what cost for that calculation. The Idea requires a rethink, also it is probably cheaper to have individual aircon units with heat pump facility for each room each fully controllable (time and temp) which gives you the option to cool you in the hot weather (at a cost) but well worth it.
@@melviniq1169 I don’t know where you got that from. In December the temperature was as low as minus 10 and my COP wasn’t impacted, my house was warm and the unit, while working harder for sure, didn’t have any noticeable drop in performance 🤷♂️
I think its optimistic to say that electricity is 3 times that of gas. On my current tariff its 4 times, and I've seen it go up to 4.5 times for some periods.
It's an average and this is something that will change over time. I agree it varies. I'm on a tariff with different rates during the day and this varies from 2.4 times difference to as much as 6.3 times difference depending on the time of day. The markets will eventually be sorted out at which point the gas price will likely go up and the electricity price will almost certainly come down as the vast majority of electricity generation is cheap. Ironically it's the wholesale gas price that pushes it up so much.
I had the temperature set to 21 degrees mostly, but on very cold days I increased it a little. The house was just as warm as it was when I had a gas boiler.
Totally agree. I have solar PV on my house and although it's a small system it does well enough for me to be sending energy back to the grid in the middle of the day in the summer. I have plans to do something about that though. 😉
@@TheRamblyChannel So was your 'free' PV power factored in the figures? The fact that you have PV sort of distorts the comparison for others who don't have PV.
@@barrieshepherd7694 My PV system is very small (1.6kW) and during the period in question had negligible impact on the figures. However it’s a fair point to raise. It will have had some impact however small that is. It’s impossible to include that in the calculations because of how solar PV generation fluctuates during the day, however take it from me that it wouldn’t come close to drawing any different conclusions from the results in the video.
@@TheRamblyChannel Your 1.6 kW solar could have been throwing 3+ kW to your heat pump each day which would mean that something approaching 90 kW per month could have been used from solar and not factored in the numbers you presented. For those that don't have solar that is a significant cost.
@@barrieshepherd7694 I can assure you it wasn’t doing that much. Not even close. I wish it was! I know you’re trying to imply that my ASHP isn’t efficient. It is. It’s a far better way to heat a house than a gas boiler. 300% - 500% is a much larger number than 80% wherever you went to school.
So what about if you have an old house, nothing like the wall in ansulation for new builds. what if you have solid walls or no under floor insulation. let's see what the fitting cost and the running cost and let's see if it keeps the temperatures you get with gas?
It's not going to suit all homes, that's for sure. There will be edge cases where alternative solutions will be needed, such as electric boilers or even high temperature versions of heat pumps (there are some interesting options in both of those areas already). The fact remains that most homes can be insulated and that's all you need for a low temperature ASHP to be a viable option.
Excluding the standing charge isn’t ideal. You can see with the figures they are hiking the standing charge to compensate for people with solar. It will keep rising and rising for electric so they make money even if you don’t consume. The reason to kill off petrol and diesel cars is to protect the electricity companies as it’s getting to the level where a generator is cheaper than the grid. Watch for diesel prices to be hiked for no reason when electricity goes up.
Yeah but standing charges are very close to each other for gas Vs electric. The difference between them for me is about £5 a month absolute tops, which doesn't fundamentally change the results of this video. That doesn't mean I'm saying standing charges are fair or unfair. Just that it doesn't (right now) materially affect the comparison because none of the months were within £5 of each other.
Haha the conspiracy’s are thick here, most of that standing charge increases is covering the cost of people not paying their bills and energy companies collapsing.
@@edc1569my standing charge is now costing me more than my bills were with Ebico who didn’t charge standing charge until they brought the price cap in which included standing charge by default. Sure wholesale price has gone up but given my usage has gone down I don’t think the entirety of standing charge is really just for people who don’t pay and a bit of green subsidy. The stupid thing is we should be getting rid of standing charge for gas and having gas boilers for high delta T requirements and water heating sizing the heat pump appropriately. Won’t happen though as they are trying to create a monopoly for electric.
Nope. My daily routine wasn't affected at all during COVID as I run a home based business. The household carried on as it had done before and after lockdown with literally no changes whatsoever. Your question is a fair one, as most people did change their routines - some by quite a bit, however for me nothing altered at all.
Brilliant video Andy, can I just ask are you on radiators or underfloor and what flow temperatures do you typically set your heat pump to and is weather compensation enabled. Great figures! Cheers
Hi Chris. Glad you enjoyed the content. I have radiators and no underfloor heating. According to the MCS certificate the flow temperature is 50 degrees, however I don't think that's quite correct. My system has an outdoor sensor that adjusts the flow temperature, i.e. the weather compensation that you refer to. According to the schematics, the flow temp can range anywhere from 15 to 45 degrees. All the best, Andy.
Hi Martyn. I can set my house to whatever temperature I want, it's no different to dirty fuel options in that respect. If I want to sweat it out at 25 degress I can do that. I have mine set to 21 degrees and it's able to maintain that whatever the temperature is outside. The flow temperature of my heating circuit is 23 degrees. I'm afraid I don't understand the last part of your query - I few typos there I suspect. Hope that helps
So how long would it take for the savings to break even on the massively increased capital cost? Even with a government subsidy - which I honestly don't think will be around for long anyway - you're looking at decades even if you can afford the capital outlay, which most people can't. The majority of households willlaugh in your face if you tell them they have to spend between three and up to five times or more to get a heat pump rather than a new gas boiler but don;t worry, it will pay for itself in twenty years time (assumign it lasts that long, which it probably won't). And that is before you get into the huge problem of needing very high standards of insulation which a majority of UK properties won;t have and maybe having to replace the radiators as well. To really make sense, a heat pump shold be backed with EV solar panels and a battery....at which point the costs become stratospheric. UK homes were built around having cheap fossily fuel heating via coal fires, and with lots of ventilation. Sadly I suspect we will see lot sof heat pumps being installed by unscrupulous persons into poorly insulated homes which will then stay cold.
Hi Richard I understand your comments, and unfortunately you're not alone in having them. For me, getting a heat pump wasn't just about the money it was about the environmental aspects of it too. That's why I have solar panels and and EV as well. (And before anyone comments about where the electricity comes from, it's sourced mainly from renewable sources and will get greener and greener over time whereas a gas boiler will always burn dirty fossil fuels.) The government grants are active until 2027. Did it cost more than getting a new gas boiler? Almost certainly. However, has it brought down my carbon emissions? Yes, definitely. And is that the most important thing? For me, yes, without doubt. The life of a new gas boiler is now 10 years (15 at a push). Mine was 19 years old but as efficiency targets only ever get more challenging, 10 years is much more likely to become the norm. My ASHP has an estimated lifespan of 20 - 25 years. As you saw if you watched the video, the heat pump was cheaper to run than my gas boiler over this period. And that's in a 70 year old home with modest insulation. I still have the same radiators in the majority of the house. What is the payback time? To be honest, I haven't calculated it for the reasons I lay out above. I have a feeling that as pressure to hit net zero increases (and it will only ever become more urgent) the cost differences between fossil fuels and renewables will get closer and my switch to green will pay for itself far sooner than it appears it will right now. That's what happened when I got my solar panels 10 years ago and I can see the same thing happening with my heat pump. But even if it doesn't, I'm very happy that I made the switch. Thanks for your comment. I hope you appreciate where I stand on this. Your opinions are valid and I very much welcome open and constructive debate on these things. What does everyone else think?
How long will it take to break even on a new gas boiler purchase? I don't see why so many people feel the need to understand the payback. When someone buys a new car people don't ask what the payback period is, or for a new kitchen a conservatory and so on.
@@johntisbury Because the gas boiler and heat pum,p do the same job - but the heat pump costs more. So the only way to justify the much higher capital expenditure is an expectation of lower running costs - hence the break even point. My goal is to have a warm house. If you want me to spend three times as much on a heat pump, it sure as heck better have lower running costs so that I recoup the difference in outlay. I think people DO look at running cost when buying a new car. If a car costs three times a smuch to buy in the first place, it needs a compelling reason to buy it. And if you had a choic eof conservators, one costs £3000, the other £9000 which one are you going to pick? If the expensiv eone costs less to heat, you'd want that £6000 back in savings before it fell down wouldn;t you? otherwise it's just pointlessly pissing money away.
@@richardgregory3684 up are mixing up ticket price comparisons with payback analysis. Whilst they are somewhat intertwined, my initial point was that the obsession with payback only seems to affect green purchases; solar PV, home batteries, heat pumps etc. You show off your new Audi, BWM car to your friend, they don't say "What's the payback period on that?" Same with a new kitchen, conservatory etc.
@@johntisbury Well, I'll try again, since you obviously did not understand the first time around. A new heating system isn;t like a new conservatory, because you can have heating systems that work in radically different ways, but do exactly the same job. A heat pump and gas boiler both keep your home warm. There's no fundemental difference there. So it comes down to price. Given a heat p[ump costs a hell of a lot more than a gas boiler, you have to look for benefits a heat pump offers over a gas boiler to justify spending so much more money. If the benefit is lower annual energy bills, then you have to ask, how long will it take for those lower energy bills to genuinely counterbalance the massively increased upfront costs? It's a calculation that most consumers will engage in. If you want them to spend an extra £8000 upfront, they will instantly ask so how long will it take for me to get my money back via lower bills? These questions don;t arise with a new kitchen or conservatory although you'd almost certainly look into how much an appliance costs, and whether a more efficient model would pay for the higher price tag via lower running costs. Its a moot question at the moment, because most peopel simply don;t have enough money to pay for a heat pump in the first place, so lower runnign costs are irrelevant. And "saving the planet" hardly any relevance at all. Peopel care much more about not freezing to death next winter than what climate change will mean in 30 years time.
Great video. I’m looking at getting a ashp to run off my home storage batteries that we fill @ 0.07p per kWh so it could mean massive savings 😊. Just out of interest how much kWh does the heat pump use on average per day ? Thanks
Hi Mark. The amount of use varies massively! Back in September when it was just doing the hot water it was low - typically 15kWh total consumption for the whole house with a couple of those generated from my solar panels. That's about 6kWh higher than when I didn't have the ASHP. When the heating was on, it can be around 20kWh for my whole home and if the sun shines some of that will come from my solar panels. When it was really cold in December the figures were sky high - over 50kWh in just one day! So to work out just the ASHP electricity use, take about 10kWh off those figures as that's a decent average. Some days will be less, some days more. Use depends on so many things - your home insulation, size and type of property, type of heating (radiators or under floor), size of pipes if rads, efficiency of the ASHP itself etc etc. There are lots of variables. Your installer will be able to do a full analysis of your home and give you predictions. The analysis I received vastly under estimated how efficient the ASHP would be. It suggested a COP of 3.2 but I got 4.8 last November (yes, the figure is different to the video - I've just discovered this week that I was told how to calculate COP incorrectly and my system actually did better... I'll be making a follow up explaining it all later this year). Home batteries will help, I'm thinking of that myself. But a typical battery might be 10kWh and while it will help reduce the cost, if it's really cold and you're using uber amounts of power for your heating then it might not make much of a dent. If you work out the cost of the batteries and the saving then it will likely take some time to pay back. That said, I'm still thinking about home batteries myself as it's the way to go. I hope that helps!
Thanks Andy for the breakdown, I've been searching for a good review of this specific ASHP and these two videos have been fantastic! I have a couple of follow up questions if you don't mind :) 1. Can I ask how roughly much this system cost to install? 2. What flow temperature are you running your system at? 3. How responsive have you found your heating system to be? Much appreciated and thanks again :D
Hi @metalhead2550 I'm so pleased you enjoyed the videos and they were helpful. Here are answers to your questions: 1. I had several jobs done at the same time and paid one bill. Some was VAT free (under the current green energy scheme) and some wasn't (those elements not directly related to the Heat Pump install). It's especially tricky to separate out the labour costs from all this and say what was specifically to do with the change over from gas. I'm going to be honest - a heat pump cost more than replacing with a new gas boiler. However, for me, moving to a green energy alternative trumps that expense. I have a feeling that over the lifetime of the heat pump it will (at worst) cost about the same as having a new boiler would've done but I have a feeling that I can make savings over the medium- to long-term. Making the switch to green energy for me had a certain element of 'doing the right thing' about it. 2. According to the MCS certificate it's 50 degrees, however the unit has an external temp sensor and uses weather compensaton. According to the schematics, the flow temp can be anywhere between 15 and 45 degrees. 3. Hot water is very quick to heat up - no complaints there at all. Heating takes longer than it did with a gas boiler, but it's not excessively long. To give an idea, I had my gas boiler turn the heating on about 45 minutes before I got out of bed, I've got the ASHP coming on about an hour and a half before I get up. I can leave the heating on all day - none of this faffing around with turning the heating off when I left the house as I did in the past with Hive controls. The ASHP is clever enough to only use the energy it needs to and it's much more efficient to leave it on all day in the winter. I hope that helps. Thanks so much for watching!
With some of the tariffs now available e.g. (Octopus Agile) heat pump easily cheaper to run. Definitely dump gas altogether, that gas hob very inefficient compared to electric induction.
You're so right. I was looking at cookers with induction hobs today (again). I'm still hoping to have gas out of my life completely before the end of the year. Please subscribe and hit that notification bell so you know when that happens and can share in my celebration!!
That's a fair suggestion. I was originally going to make a follow-up video with the next 3 months, but changed supplier who then wouldn't give me access to my old data so that idea went down the drain! There's so much to consider. I'll be making another heat pump video soon as there's more to say and I've learned so much since I made this one. Thanks for watching! 😁
I am having a ASHP put in shortly and the reason is that I have solar panels and a 10kw battery storage unit and use the Octopus GO cheap off peak tarrif to charge the Car and my batteries during the night at 8p a KW so this is the way to go to get the best and cheapest way to run the system, might add another 10kw of batteries in 12 months time so as to keep on the off peak price.
You're spot on there. Unfortunately I can't afford to add batteries to my solar system. My array is tiny (installed in 2012 - systems are much bigger now) and due to no room left on my roof I'd need to put them on the garage. The cost of doing that is prohibitive, especially when you add in the cost of a battery. I could've got more panels and a battery instead of a heat pump, however then I'd still be using a gas boiler. My primary objective was to get off gas so the route I took made sense to me. What you're doing sounds fantastic! I wish you well.
Should be considerably cheaper to maintain and last longer than a gas boiler. The servicing charge was more than my old gas boiler, you're correct there. However the savings I've made over the last 12 months more than make up for that.
Hi one big omission to your calcs is the up front investment costs in the ASHP system. Assuming the installer and equipment was not free this should be taken into account on cost of ownership. This would show how many years you would need to run the ASHP to break even with your current system costs and start saving if indeed saving on energy costs is the objective. Even if the gas boiler needed replacing I would guess it’s a lot cheaper to replace than an ASHP system.
I disagree. If you get a new gas boiler, no-one asks you what the installation costs were. If you get a new kitchen no-one rocks up to your house and asks how much the installer charged to fit it. Getting a heat pump was an investment in my home, sustainability and efficiency. Did it cost more than if I'd just replaced my gas boiler? Yes, certainly. Will it cost more when it needs replacing itself in 20 years time? No. Did a gas boiler cost more when it replaced night storage heating or whatever was in before it? Yep, for sure. All things are relative and I can sleep soundly in my bed at night knowing I've done the right thing.
Don't forget to adjust for the efficiency of your old Gas boiler, which was most likely in the 80% range. That means you are winning at any COP above 3.
Thanks Richard. I thought I said something along those lines towards the end of the video, but I might be wrong or didn't make it clear. As it turned out, the method I'd been given by the installer to calculate my COP was incorrect and using the correct method my figures are even better!? Astonishingly. I'll be talking about this in my next heat pump update in April.
@@UpsideDownFork Great news! I can report that after having my Arotherm Plus for 6 months I have no regrets about getting it. YMMV of course, but I'm sure you're going in having done all your research. It was a leap of faith on my part to a certain extent, but I'm happy I made the switch. Good luck with your install next month. I hope it goes well!
The thing that is missing from these calculations is the loss of interest on the upfront cost of installing the heat pump. At present interest rates (Sept. 23) that is around 5% pA. Taking £10,000 as the installation cost that's £500 per year loss of income.
Comparisons like this only make sense if you are about to swap out your gas boiler. If you have a gas boiler that is working fine with many years life expectancy then the cost of removing it + the cost of buying a ASHP + installation would wreak havoc on any comparative figures. Making the gas boiler option FAR more attractive.
Thanks for the honest presentation. Shouldn't you factor in the overall cost of the heat pump though? I guess, if you're at the point where you need to replace your boiler anyway, then a heat pump makes sense but it seems that the savings you make will take a considerably long time to pay off for the cost of the pump in the first place.
It’s a fair point although the video was specifically talking about running costs. Once you’ve paid for an install you never have to pay for it again, just a replacement pump at some point way in the future. The way I look at it is that if you get a new kitchen people don’t ask you how long it’ll take to pay back. For me it’s an investment in my property and also having a more environmentally acceptable heating system. Thanks for watching and sending your feedback! 😊
@TheRamblyChannel exactly right. I can't think of item that is purchased for the home where payback time is considered. Kitchen, bathroom, garden, decorating, rewiring, new carpets, new roof etc etc. Back in the day when double glazing was all the rage I didn't hear one single person that I knew that paid to have it installed mention how long it would take to "pay for itself". I just don't understand why people, usually those who are sceptics, are fixated upon this metric. Those very same people typically have "invested" in one or more of the " home enhancements" that I mentioned above, and have one, sometimes two tin boxes on wheels on finance in their household. Friends I know spend £thousands every year trying to hit a ball into a hole in a patch of grass or watching grown men running around for 90 minutes or more attempting to gain posessionnof a ball and then trying to dispose of it between two wooden posts😂 A mate of mine actually spends over 10 thousand pounds on the latter every year! Every single person on the planet spends money on items that don't pay for themselves, yet ridicule someone who spends their money on something that benefits the environment and could well provide a personal reward too. Top tip...if you don't believe in it or can't afford it then don't buy it. Simples.
@@David-bl1bt I guess that's why I never get a new kitchen 😀. In all honesty though, the comparison is slightly different. With a heating appliance, you have a choice of two different options - I'm just going for the cheaper option. It's also a bit disingenuous to present the running costs of an option but then claim that the installation costs shouldn't matter. In my case, installation for a heating pump costs £8.5k. I'd make savings of around £200 a year so it would take me over 40 years to recoup the cost. For some people, recouping the cost is immaterial and if you're one of those people then, great. But I'm sure that a lot of viewers of a video related to "running costs" are interested in all of the costs - not just some of the costs.
@Unshou ..... which is exactly what I've said. If people are going to buy purely the cheapest purchasing option then they will have already determined that a heat pump is not going to be their choice. The is not being disingenuous at all, he is presenting facts derived from his experience of ownership, ie "running costs" and that the installation costs are not don't matter TO HIM. Clearly if that matter TO OTHERS then they will make their purchasing decision based upon that criteria, as you have made clear. The cost of the installation is a capital cost, not a running cost. The video title clearly states that it is about the comparitive running costs between a heat pump and a gas boiler. There are many videos on youtube that detail installation of heat pumps and associated costs, this very channel may indeed have, or will have such a video for those who are interested in installation costs. I dont know how you determined that you would only save £200 a year by installing a heat pump??....perhaps you could share your data and analysis for comparison with the data presented in this video, it surely would be of interest to those who have come to this channel to discover those costs.
@@David-bl1bt Agreed, the cost of the installation is a capital cost - just an important one (to some, at least). Actually, the video highlights a saving of just over £200 a year. £109 for the 3 months Oct-Dec and, although not presented in the video, given a similar set of conditions between Jan-Mar, one can assume that a similar saving can be derived (i.e. £109). Giving a total of £218 saving during winter. In my case, I save a little bit more per month but I don't turn on the heating till November and I tend to turn off the heating in March (if I can get away with it). Given that I turn off the heating for 7-8 months of the year, there's very little savings to be made during these months and I typically spend around £30-40 on gas during these months. I use a combi boiler so some of that £30-40 of gas goes into heating hot water on-demand. So whilst a heat pump would take over heating the hot water, the savings on £30-40 will be nominal. Don't get me wrong, I think heat pumps are great and they're important in helping move the country off of our dependence on gas. That said, the initial capital cost is quite off-putting for many and I think more needs to be done to help people move onto a greener way of heating their homes. During a period when people are struggling with high energy prices, it's a tough ask to expect families to have a large capital outlay.
The standing charge is a significant driver, and I think you have left it out here, which is good. However, how much did you pay for your heat source pump system and all of the alterations it would require. If you have pulled out a serviceable gas boiler system you need to factor in this cost of ownership into your calculations. If the whole thing has cost you £25k, how long will it take to pay you back on your investment vs a gas boiler replacement?
My gas boiler was 18 years old and overdue for replacement. The install cost was a fraction of the amount you've quoted. I really don't know where people get these huge figures from - it doesn't cost anywhere near as much as that!! I could've installed a heat pump in several houses in my street for that. I also don't get why everyone is so focussed on cost. Yes, it's a factor but it's short term thinking. Factor in expected lifespan of an ASHP v boiler, the running and maintenance costs over the time I expect to live in this house and I strongly believe it'll be the cheaper option. But even if it isn't, I feel much better about using tech that doesn't harm the planet or the people on it. A gas boiler will always burn harmful fossil fuels. An ASHP is already green, and will get greener as the grid continues to decarbonise without me needing to lift a finger.
Andy, look at setting your flow temperature to say 30 or 35 degrees. Set your normal temperature to 19 and fallback to 17 and leave your heating on all the time. See if that raises your COP. You should be able to get 400% if not more. Apparently with UFH you can get into the 500% range.
Thanls @egg399 that's interesting. I'll run it past the heating engineer who installed my system and see what he says. EDIT: I've just checked my settings and the flow temperature is set to 32 degrees, my heating is set to 21.5 degrees from 6am to 11.30pm (although it tends to sit at around 20.5 degrees most of the time) with a fallback of 18.5 degrees. According to the MyVaillant app, I currently have a COP for 2024 so far of 4.7. March was 5.1 and so far in April it's 5.7.
The install cost wasn't anywhere near as much as that!! It was roughly double the cost of having a new boiler. However, I can't work out why I get comments like yours that focus completely on the price. My carbon footprint is just as important to me. I'm not made of money by any stretch however I felt it worth paying extra for. The heat pump is more efficient, will likely be cheaper to run long term and won't poison the neighbours. Any new install will have an increased cost over just replacing some old tech. No-one asks you when you get a new kitchen why you didn't just paint the cupboard doors and put sticky tape over the cracks because it's cheaper. I really don't get it...!?
@@darrencoyle2589if you can't afford, then you just don't buy it, very simple. Comments like yours baffle me as if someone's going to come in your house, rip out your boiler and force you to buy a heat hump.
It's not all about the money. I'm not well off, but if I can do something to help reduce my carbon footprint then I'm damn well going to do it. If you get a new kitchen no-one asks you how long it'll take to recover the costs. I don't see why that's something so many people seem obsessed with asking me about the green tech I buy? I've reduced my carbon footprint and less people will die early as a result. You can't put a price on that.
Malcolm's comments are correct, the colder it gets heat pumps struggle!! Plus they are too expensive to have installeded! Solar panels with battery storage linked to an electric Boiler is a far better option!!
Do you have an ASHP? From your post that appears to be churning out what the newspapers like to print about the technology, I doubt it. Take it from someone who actually has one in their home - it doesn't struggle in the cold! It's been -10 degrees here and my heat pump coped with it just fine. They have flipping thousands of the things in Norway, and guess how cold it gets there? Installation costs are falling all the time and it's easily possible to get an install on cost parity with a gas boiler. If I factor in the running costs of my unit then even though it cost me more to install at that time (nearly 2 years ago) than if I'd gone with a poisoning fossil fuel gas boiler, I still anticipate it will cost far less to run over the coming years... and that has proved to be the case so far since installation. Your electric boiler/solar suggestion is valid, however there's a balance to be made and I'm not convinced the savings of a solution like that would be as much as my heat pump, however as with everything YMMV and any option that doesn't use fossil fuels is a good one.
There's a government green levy tax on electricity production for starters, then there's inefficiency at power station (5-10% loss) then more losses through transmission grid @ >10%. Localised electricity production is much more efficient over all. Good news is that renewables now provide @ 34% of UK electricity on average per day, and that's increasing as more comes online. Production cost of offshore wind generation is about 2.7p/kW. BUT, electricity costs still tied to market cost of gas.... Another government 'challenge'.
I'd love to have an air source heat pump but we'd be forced into changing all our radiators too. The rough cost in total could be £10,000 upwards, so we've no choice but to get a gas boiler (our boiler's leaking & needs replacing). I never put the heating on during the day. I pay considerably less now than you dod a year ago.
Are you sure you'd have to replace all your radiators? My house was built in 1948, has 20 year old insulation and the radiators were all put in with a gas boiler in mind. With all that, I only needed to change 4 out of 10 radiators (including 2 heated towel rails that were too small for the gas set up tbh). It's very unusual for every radiator to require replacing when moving from gas to a heat pump. As @metalhead2550 points out, the Boiler Upgrade Scheme pays £5000 for a new ASHP and £6000 for a GSHP, plus you save an additional 20% by not having to pay any VAT either for the equipment or the installation - that alone is a massive saving. If you've only spoken to one installer, you might want to get a second opinon.
@The Rambly Channel This is a Persimmon house. They put in radiators that were too small for the house. One of our radiators is supposed to be a demo one...we've been told that by several different heating engineers. The boiler is the smallest legally allowed but too small, really. Apparently, heat pumps are more powerful & need larger radiators. I don't think they are trying to fleece us: I've been told the same thing by a few people.
Interesting video, it would be good to include the savings should you remove your gas hob and replace it with an induction one as you could then include the savings of turning off gas completely and saving your standing charge too.
I have a small solar system already, but am planning to add more (and perhaps also a battery) in due course. I'm just running the numbers at the moment...!
How about cost of buying heat pump vs cost of buying boiler or cost of repair for both longevity of parts those things may be cost more than raw energy bill ...
@@TheRamblyChannel Dat u need to ask Asia, Africa,South America they are the problem but Europe is most taxed and call for it and green talk is getting stupid u cant shovel damage done by 4-5 billion ppl to 500milion it dose not work dat way and nothing will happen even if every single europe buys solar heat pumps and evs will not reduce anything when 4-5 billion ppl keeps burning shit regardless so dat eco tax is to make europe poor nothing good going to come of it and ofc hard working person will ask for price of thing before investing in it and longevity and repair costs if cost out perform benefits then its not worth it in long run it applies to any article someone wish to buy eco/green is a plus thing not must buy thing not must buy thing and most of time eco/green this is worse than original stuff so very skeptic about it all ...
Mitsubishi Electric build some identical houses in Scotland where their factory is so they can run tests like this I believe. They can also test new products to older ones etc. or test with different radiators or other technology.
That's interesting to hear. It's difficult to get an accurate picture of how things are, but with the combination of far better efficiency, much nicer and stable heat in my home and the fact that I'm no longer directly polluting the local environment makes the decision absolutely the right one. I have zero regrets.
Hi, I am a heating engineer, I really struggle with advising clients on what to go for.. its so difficult. Yes ypur figures show a bit of a financial saving, but, your comparison is between an old gas boiler, probably running radiators at a flow temperature of 70 to 75c with out dated controls. So it's not like for like.. so I I had installed a good boiler, good controls, not simple timers and thermostat, running at 40 to 45c flow temps, with a boiler actually sized to the required Kw for you home (I would like to bet you ASHP is somewhere between 7 and 10kw , but I bet ypur old boiler was something like 30kw.. huge wastage. I fit both, so no axe to grind, and like I say I struggle.. and I struggle from an environmental angle too.. what's better, burning gas at your home, minimal wastage, or burning gas to produce your electricity to power your ASHP with huge wastage from the generator to your home.. Plus, your old vaillant I'll fix in half an hour, parts on shelf or in my van.. can we say the same about the ASHP ? It's a tough one Lovely video, really well made and certainly food for thought
Gas now produces on average, over the year, less than half of UKs electricity, and decreasing over time, factoring that in greatly reduces the CO2 footprint of electricity used by heat pumps in comparison to Gas Boiler. Transmission loss on electric grid is about 8% according to National Grid, and a quarter of that to meter inaccuracies and theft. RUclips does not allow posting links, but 'National Grid ISO' Application for mobile devices gives good, almost real time, data on electricity CO2 production throughout UK.
@_Dougaldog I am not knocking alternative ways to heat our homes, I welcome them, but I am sadly not convinced by any of the figures, we have a mix of lies, damn lies and statistics... Of course our other big energy source for electrical energy is nuclear, let's factor in thousands of lifetimes of managing the the waste, let alone the risks (however big or small) As it is I would love to see any grants available go into insulation .. we need to use less of whatever energy it is.
@angleseyandy9110 indeed.. a basic immersion tank heater is 2000 to 3000 watts. But remember these so call eco heat pumps have to replace 15 kw to 24 kw combi boilers. So what it can't suck out the air has to be supplemented. The larger units need a dedicated 40 amp feed.
What one did you have? I have 3 (each on a 13amp fuse), and even when it was -14C outside, my whole house wasn't consuming more than 5kW. It also depends on how long it had been running for, the first ~1hr is generally the most inefficient, so if you're just taking one reading after turning it on, you aren't measuring it correctly. Also price cap is under 28p, so 28*.5.2 = ~£1.45, not £2. Would require your electricity to be closer to 40p/kWh to be £2 per hour.
@@richardoakley8800 I'm aware, that's the maximum they'll be able to pull before blowing a fuse, individually they have a max draw of 1.9kW, 2.4kW and 2.02kW. but as I said, my whole house consumption when it was -14C didn't go above 5kW. Even now when it's around -1C, my whole house is below 2kW, whilst keeping it at around 21C.
You can work out how much energy your house requires per degree of outdoor temperature change quite easily if you have had a heat loss survey done and know the total heat loss is and your indoor and outdoor design temperatures. But knowing how long the ashp ran for to provide that heat is hard to know. If you maintained 21c indoors at -3 outdoors the temperature difference is 24. If your property heat loss is 8 Kw, then 8000/24 = 333 W per degree of outdoor temperature change. So 2.5 degrees warmer outside would mean the ashp uses 833 W less when running.
great to see real world figures, would be interesting to know how much you paid to have the heat pump system installed, i imagine a bog standard gas combi-boiler is about £3k these days with installation.
Thank you for detailed analysis. It is bringing me to few conclusions. 1. You forgot to mention what temperature was kept inside your house. 2. I believe difference in outdoor temperature does matter, even 1C. 3. I am really missing information regarding price of getting HP vs new boiler. ( Maybe you mentioned and I missed it.) 4.COP is important part of comparison, but in absolute units, tankless boiler consumes much less electricity than heat pump. If you use condensing boiler,thermal efficiency is hovering around 90%. Bottom line from my point: If you live in the region with high electricity rates and low natural gas prices, stay with your boiler. As well, in really cold winters I wouldn't play with HP.
Tankless for DHW won't get 90% efficiency as it can't benefit from condensing. And they are wasting both water and heat by the not-yet-hot enough water being poured down the drain. If the DHW cylinder is in the home, then no heat is wasted, as any heat loss from the cylinder is lost into the home (at least in winter) as usable heat.
Well,it is not exactly correct. Efficiency rating for these tanks is stating between 85 to 95%, besides, many of them has little tank and circulator inside,preventing waste of water. Energy consumption even with circulator,still much less than HP.
@BenIsInSweden tankless heater requires power to operate exhaust fan and electronic components on main board plus gas valve solenoid(s). Compare to HP - compressor( even inverter), outdoor fan,indoor fan( in case of air to air system. Definitely I don't have so detailed analysis, but that what my logic based on many years of experience said. I am going to find data and calculate consumption in proper way.
Need to correct for weather by looking up degree days for that period too AHH you did, well done Edit final bit you need to allow for efficiency of the gas boiler, sounds like you had weather compensation on a condensing boiler so might be quite good maybe 90%+ but certainly not 100 , as the flue gas is always warm.
Thanks for your feedback, Lews. My boiler was a Worcester Bosch Greenstar. 90% is probably about right, although it was 19 years old so was estimated to be lower than that. It had been regularly maintained so it can't have been terrible. The weather compensation was provided through Hive TRVs. I didn't mention Hive in the video as it was quite long enough. Thanks for watching!
Hive TRVs is not weather compensation, as it is not altering boiler flow temperature from the boiler dependant on outside temperature, or indeed load control based on internal temperature compared to setpoint. How are you optimising boiler return temperature?
At last, somebody that compares heatpump against a gas boiler without changing insulation etc. Well presented and reflects my findings too.
Thanks for your feedback, John.
Would be a fair comparison if the gas boiler was designed to run at the same flow temperature as the heat pump with a brand new Viessman on weather comp
Finally someone who takes into account the daily temperature. Thank You.
Here in Alberta Canada there's a half dozen different charges on my electric bill usually about 60% of price per kwh. Last bill for 700 kwh was $300.00 CAD
Yes. Interesting. Will take a while to offset the ridiculous installation cost unfortunately.
How much is a new boiler to buy and install? £4k or there abouts? It's the same price as an ASHP
@@Soulrollsdeepsame price…lol.
@@markhoffman My ASHP is costing £3500 to install. A new gas boiler is around the same price with install and VAT
@@Soulrollsdeepand you are including the heating grant in that? All the same pipe work and radiators?
more or less the same results here in the Netherlands, including the weather correction, I come to around 10% savings. But since I let the heat pump run during the day instead of (random) at night, the savings increase to 25% (despite the temperature being set 1 degree higher to compensate for the decline) last night for example -4 and during the day + 12, cop at night about 2 and during the day 4.5!
Ah interesting. So with a low temperature the cop drops substantially which is what I expected. I wonder how much cop we would see if we used a gas boiler when it was really cold and reducing the power of the Heat pump so it would only be used when the outside temperatures made sense to use it.
The success of any low grade heat source is dependant on minimising losses. If you can insulate then all is hunky dory. Then you have to factor in the return on outlay. I think a lot of people have done that calculation and decided an ASHP is too expensive right now. As far as I'm concerned their is too much hype flying around and I'm certainly not changing my six year old gas boiler any time soon. The company I worked for installed their first ASHP in 2005 in a bungalow complex that had no gas and no space for oil tanks. We used the ASHP solely to heat the hot water cylinder and an in line electric heater to run the radiators. We also had a Vaillant GSHP at the depot, and that worked well, but cost a merry fortune to install. For now I'm an interested spectator as far as ASHPs are concerned as my house is very difficult to insulate with solid stone walls from 1885.
Get a heat loss calculation done you might be surprised. That is assuming you have double glazing and decent loft insulation. Our stone built cottage circa 1820 is fine with an ASHP. We didn't have to change anything as we already had cast iron rads. We are also saving as we have no gas standing charge. We also have solar which helps and I think a home battery will be with us soon as we can then utilise fully the cheap overnight rates for electricity. At that point I will add some more solar as it is so cheap.
The success of ANY heating system is dependent on insulation - thermodynamics does not know what your heat source is. If the heat loss from your home is 7KW at -2C then you need to introduce 7KW to maintain an internal temperature of 20/21C. Your choice then is how you deliver that and how much you will pay for each KWH. Insulation reduces heat loss and if you are insulating substantially can reduce it a lot - say from 7 to 5KW and this can enable you to select a smaller heat pump or boiler which will save both capital and running costs.
However going smaller has never been a thing in the gas boiler industry and even today boilers are being installed in domestic properties that do not only heat the house - but could in addition heat the houses of three or four of the neighbours houses too.
So, heating and heat loss and how you deal with it is not a religion - it’s thermodynamics, flow in pipes and good design.
Much simplified format to present the comparisons between heat pumps and gas boilers. Thank you Andy
Thank you for your kind words. So pleased you enjoyed the video!
Not sure if you mentioned it, but did you take into account the installation costs. Assuming you had a serviceable gas boiler, this was removed and you paid for a new heat pump system (assuming it wasn't free). I understand that the average installation cost is around 16k. Therefore how long (in monthly savings) will it take to pay for itself?
If it cost 16k and you save £100 per month you are looking at 13 years to pay for it. Do you have these figures?
It didn't cost anywhere near £16K to install. It was less than half that, but I didn't give the figures because I was having other work done at the time that I would've had done even if I'd got a new gas boiler. As the engineers were there and I was paying for their time it's impossible to isolate the install costs for the heat pump. Suffice to say that once a heat pump is installed, future installations will be as cheap or cheaper than a gas boiler and an ASHP has a longer life than a gas boiler. In my opinion over a long period of ownership where you may replace the heating device a couple of times (including the initial installation) the overall install costs for either solution will work out about the same whereas the running costs of an ASHP and the environmental and health benefits are immeasurably better over that period.
@@TheRamblyChannel Thanks for the reply. I have just had an assessment done as I discovered I could get the entire system including 10 solar panels totally free under Government grants as I'm a pensioner. However the assessor has now said that because my current gas (LPG) system is 8mm microbore every room will need the floors lifted to install minimum of 15mm pipe work. Other channels also appear to have conflicting information on this, some saying the pipe size doesn't matter and others saying minimum of 22mm. Did you have micro bore or have you heard about these conflicting issues. Cheers
@@TheRamblyChannelcompletely wrong, the average install will cost around 10k as many people will need significant upgrades, any houses with micropore pipework, or poor insulation for example or under sized radiators.
The average boiler install is about 2.5k. The average lifespan for a vaillant ecotec plus combi or system is about 20 yrs, the older turbomax was 25yrs + once the government grants run out people are not going to enjoy the price difference between gas and heat pumps. A Vaillant Arotherm costs about 6.4k and even with no additional work, still has a higher install cost than a gas boiler. I work on these things everyday. It's madness, ASHP are great when installed correctly and do work fine, but the cost difference for the majority of people is just way to much.
Plus if you're going from a combi boiler you're going to have to buy a cylinder as well and find some where to put it. The biggest question I always get is "we want to get rid of cylinder to create more space," so this is going to be another factor than massively puts off many people, when they realise they are going to lose their airing cupboard.
@@dunboy7874 I don't know where to start with this. It slightly worries me that you say you're an installer...! My ASHP is a Vaillant AroTherm+ and it didn't cost me anywhere close to the figure you quoted. Perhaps your figure is for a 12kW version? Mine is a 7kW and they also do a 5kW. The boiler lifespan you quote is optimistic. To be fair the boiler I replaced had lasted 18 years but had an efficiency of around 80%. You can't argue with efficiency stats. A boiler is 95% max dropping over time with an ASHP anywhere between 300% and 500% depending on the time of year (and that won't drop at any point during its servicable lifetime). Yes it costs more to install in 2023 - something that will (and already is) improving. However, with the state of the planet right now we MUST move to greener technology at pace. If we don't, the price difference will be the last of our collective worries...
@@TheRamblyChannel You don't know where to start? Well, addressing any of the issues I mentioned would of been a good place to start.
The majority of homes have combi boilers, so let's say they go for the same 7 kW arotherm as you, that's 4.5k for the unit the cylinder is anywhere between £600-1k plus expansion vessels and valves, pumps etc. That's going to be around 6k at least in materials, plus labour. Plus any other upgrades required, which the majority of homes will need. 20 yrs is not optimistic for a decent gas boiler, if you have it serviced and test water quality every year, which you will need to do for a ASHP anyway 20 yrs is easily achievable. I know this because i see them on a daily basis.
Also why would it worry you if I'm an installer? Lol don't worry I don't install them anymore. I'm not an ASHP hater anyway, like I said in my previous message, if installed correctly by a competent installer and the system is well designed they work very well, and can be cheaper than a gas boiler to run.
On average it will take 10-15 yrs before you see any real savings though, unless you have a decent solar system in place.
My argument is that is not a solution for the majority of homes in the UK, we have a lot of old housing stock, and most people don't have the required amount of money to spend to get their home to the required standard to make heat pumps work effectively.
Also your ridiculous points of about saving the plant are completely unfounded, if the UK went completely net 0 tomorrow it wouldn't make a blind bit of difference, we contribute 1% of global co2 immisions, China increase by more than this every year alone. To guilt trip people into spending thousands to literally make, no difference is so disingenuous and dishonest in beggers belief, but i get it, everyone like to virtue signal to heavens these days in fear of getting cancelled. 🙃🤦♂️
If you use degree days for each month, you can correct for temperature differences across years.
I am a retired heating engineer of 45 years, I worked mainly with gas, also some oil, LPG, electric and S/fuel; I notice you did not take humidity into account, which can have a large effect. Your results are what I expected, as the temperature got lower the heat pump struggled.
Fair point. The humidity levels aren't something I was able to track at the time, however I now have that capability. I wouldn't say that the heat pump struggled! It worked harder, yes, but it was well within its capabilities and was keeping the house nice and warm.
@@TheRamblyChannel which is exactly how a gas boiler responds to lower temperatures and increased humidity, too.
So True, they just aren't good enough! And far too expensive when you gave to upgrade to bigger radiators!!
Very factual and very good information. I love your way of presenting it.
That's very nice of you to say, thank you so much for your kind, positive feedback! 😊
Nicely presented, really accessible to understand what sometimes is presented in an over complicated format.
Thanks @bpgfox that's very kind of you. So pleased you enjoyed the video! 😊👍🏻
How much did it cost to install the heat pump?
The boiler you had was A rated and all parts available.
This is all okay but what temp did you run your system at and for how long? I find many people with low bills run it for a short time at 18 degrees. No thanks. 18 at night and 21/22 day time.
It seems this bloke is not interested with negative questions.
So how much did you pay for the heat pump and then the installation? Plus I understand you have to buy new radiators and probaby additional insulation. So adding all this up and taking into account the government grant, was the cost around £14k? My new Worcester Bosch boiler fully fitter was £3,700 last October. That gives you a difference of £7,800. So saving 16:48 £100 per month over the two systems during wintertime, you’ll get a breakeven over about 16yrs. That’s not particularly good and heat pumps, from the various RUclips videos I’ve watched, struggle to heat properties above 18°c. That’s not particularly good methinks. ❄️❄️
What videos actually *show* a heat pump struggling to heat above 18C? If they do then the system has been poorly designed. New rads and additional insulation should be seen as a separate cost, as that'll benefit gas boilers as well, and become even more relevant if the UK ever switches to hydrogen - or more levies get put on gas, and taken off electricity.
I didn't pay anywhere near £14K. I don't know where you got that from? Insulation is important for any source of heating. I didn't have mine changed, nor did I need to install new radiators. I replaced a couple that were too small for the room, but that would've been the case for a gas boiler too. My house was perfectly warm in what turned out to be a very cold winter 2022/23. The cost was more than getting a new gas boiler, but to me installing a gas boiler now is like taking up smoking, wearing flared trousers or going to a tupperware party - they've had their day and we need to move on to newer greener, healthier technologies.
What temperature did you set for heating during the 3 month period- was it different in ‘21 to ‘22? The thermostat setting needs to be the same during the yearly timeframes.
What changes to the radiator system were needed? What was the total cost of buying and installing the heat pump?
Big questions…🤔
Hi Tom. The heating was set to the same temperature both years, i.e. 21 degrees. That seems to be my comfortable level.
If you watch my heat pump installation video I run through all the changes that were made to the existing system so that should answer that question.
I haven't mentioned price in any of my videos for several reasons. Everyone's case is different and the cost will vary from person to person. When you install any new tech it will cost more than a simple swap out of old tech, however any future replacements of the new tech will be similarly "swap out cheap" so it's a nonsense comparison to make. I hope you can understand my reasonings for not including it.
Thanks for watching!
Nice video comparison of the 2 different heat sources, any chance of an update video with total running cost comparison since Heat pump installation.
It's something I intend to do in some form or another. My original plan was to do a 6-month video and then a year, however when I went to pull the data from my old energy supplier it was no longer accessible. It leaves doing a comparison a little tricky!
Interesting that you have decided to omit the cost of installing your heat pump system in relation to the cost of a modern more efficient boiler. Can you divulge the cost of the work involved which would be relevant to me in my current circumstance. Cheers.
Did you allow the savings due to any extra insulation you added, that the boiler didnt enjoy?
Andy spoke about that, he said he'd done minimal insulation changes but even if he had it would be part of the Heat Pump install, so fair game.
We have a setback temp at night of 17⁰c and 21⁰c during day. Our 7kW Daikin was originally setup in Jun 2023 with weather comp set at 50⁰@-2⁰/35⁰@18ext. In Dec when it was below zero the house was too warm and we tweaked the settings to 50⁰@-15⁰/30⁰@18 and this maintains 20⁰c internally and system runs contantly without cycling as advised by Heat Geek. SÇOP since Jun 22 3.62 heat and 2.31 DHW. We have solar so running costs looking good.
Hi. It would be a miracle if temperature in my house was kept at 20'C all the time. In coldest days of the year temperature in living room is low =18'C. I'm not interested in sCOPs or COPS. I want my house to be warm as be ere when we had a gas boiler.
After living for 35yrs in a home with gas blown air heating, (downstairs only) I had a heatpump and solar panels fitted, I find that house is warm enough with 19°C setting. It is Cavity wall insulated, and loftspace is up to spec, but maybe those years of no heat upstairs, have made 19° feel toasty.
Dispensing with gas altogether and using an induction hob would remove the cost of the gas standing charge too. It makes no difference in your methodology but no one ever considers the cost of the pump running in a CH system and in my case it is almost 300 watts, because of the long runs of pipe work. And for those running BEVs with access to preferential rates of overnight electricity can make a huge saving by not using the the heat pump during the day between 05:30 and 23:30 in my case April to October. Heat pumps are very efficient and maintain a an even warmth throughout the home.
Anyone with central heating installed in the 1960s to 1980s with a house built during that time might find their radiators don’t need resizing, but keeping the flow temperature low ~ 35 degrees will save most money by raising the COP closer to 4 or even 5 in the best circumstances. Swapping to double radiators type 22 helps improve convection heating.. And once you have a system installed when a heat pump fails it should be no more work than swapping out a gas boiler. The heat pump should last 20 years so no more expensive than swapping cheap gas boilers!
Vaillant ecotec 832, 1.5k average life span 20yrs, vaillant 12kw arotherm plus avg life estimate 20 yrs 6.4k 🤔 not really the same price. less than 1/4 of the price lol
Excellent honest video very well presented. The COP figures were quite surprising. Probably worth having if combined with solar and a battery where you can store the electricity from the panels or from cheaper overnight rates
Thank you for your kind words. I agree. Solar has moved on a lot since I had my system installed and adding more panels and particularly a battery is something I want to do (hopefully later this year). There's no doubt that with smarter use of when you can use your energy, the benefits of having generated it in the first place go up significantly. And with an ASHP (and an EV) as part of my set up now, anything I can do to maximise the use of my solar energy will be helpful. Watch this space - lots more on exactly that topic to come. Thanks for watching!
As long as you factor in the upfront cost of such addons?
I don't believe it. The 2021 power use was 1094kwhrs. You get nowt for nowt in this world.
Thinking of getting a heat pump as my Worcester boiler is 21 years old and needing new version and radiators
With a grant seems good advice Thankyou for looking into this
It would be a good choice, I'm sure. Do your homework, get a few quotes and see where it takes you. I've had mine now for coming up to 2 years (in September) and I don't regret it for a second.
Interesting break down Andy! Thanks for doing the research for us all. Such a useful video! 👏😎🤘
Thanks Ben, glad it was helpful! Lots of numbers!!!
@@TheRamblyChannel are you sure the efficincy of gas boiler is only 80%?
My concern is pretty simple: energy demand. In Finland, the one million ASHP now installed pull just over 3GW from their grid, during the coldest winter months (and the houses in Finland as super-insulated). If we scale that up to replace 24 million gas boilers in the UK, that would translate to (roughly) 70GW during a "beast from the east" event. When you consider that current UK demand is 43GW, and we have a maximum capacity of about 50GW - it's clear that something is not going to fly.
OK, we have offshore wind, however, when you consider that all of the UK wind production is set to peak at 30GW by 2030, while Sizewell and Hinkley C are set to add (maybe) 6GW to the picture - I'm really struggling to see where the extra power is going to come from. When you add electric transport (private and commercial), agriculture and food processing into the picture (someone has to bake the break and cook the beans), we're estimated to be looking at a further 100GW increase in demand - bring peak UK demand to over 170GW.
Again - where is this going to come from and where is the grid infrastructure required to carry it? My guess is that it's never going to happen and the UK National Grid will halt the rollout of ASHP towards the end of 2024. The question then will be if existing installations will need to be removed. Again, my guess is YES
Hi Alexander. Thanks for your feedback. I welcome debate on all green technologies as that's how we will educate people and correct the great deal of disinformation that's out there on this subject. National Grid have run the numbers and the combination of both ASHP and EVs are not going to put any strain on the grid either now or at any point in the future. They know what they're talking about and to directly quote them "There is definitely enough energy and the grid can cope easily."
Find out more straight from the horses mouth here: www.nationalgrid.com/stories/journey-to-net-zero-stories/can-grid-cope-extra-demand-electric-cars and for the full UK perspective on both heat pumps and EVs from someone at National Grid check out this video: ruclips.net/video/5uG4xv3oLeQ/видео.html
Case closed. 😊
@@TheRamblyChannelWell said . Too much FUD around this topic ATM .
Very informative. I don’t feel I can go down the ASHP route until there is price stability between gas and electric per kilowatt. In July 2023 electricity is already back to 4.5 x gas so a heat pump will be definitely more expensive to run.
Do we need some sort of price control to say the difference should never be more than 3x? But such state interference would anger many people.
It’s a fair comment. Ironically the high price of electricity is entirely down to the cost of gas. If electricity was priced based on how much is costs to produce the cost would plummet. Unfortunately that’s going to take time but I hope it happens eventually. My heat pump is so efficient that even at the current price levels it’s still cheaper to run than a gas boiler. And more importantly it’s far more environmentally sound, something that is just as important. Thanks for watching! 😊
I wonder how it compares to my my forced air wood furnace?
Environmentally and for your hopes of living to a ripe old age trying to breath anywhere close to it, not very well I imagine.
That was interesting but needs updating. January to March would be interesting as much more heat would be required. Being a suspicious person I wonder if those figures would be favourable.
Also, how many years of the saving is required to pay for the additional installation cost?
Thanks for your feedback. My intention was to make a Jan - Mar follow up video, however when I switched suppliers I lost access to the data I needed for a detailed comparison. Totally my fault - I should've captured the data before I switched. However, the weather was MUCH colder in December than it was at any point during the following 3 months.
When it comes to additional installation cost, that's a reasonable question but is perhaps comparing apples to oranges. There are additonal costs - but these are one offs. You'd have to pay initial costs if you were having a brand new gas system fitted to a house that didn't have one. The cost of updating the heat pump when it turns up its toes will likely be cost comparable to replacing a gas boiler and that's the important metric IMHO. For the most sustainable future, we're going to have swallow the install costs initially. They will come down in time.
What are the annual service costs for an ASHP system? How often do they need to be calibrated to ensure they are efficient? At what cost? What is the average repair cost?
I have no idea about repairs as there's not very much to go wrong in there, frankly. It comes with an epic multi-year warranty which just goes to show how unlikely it is to break any time soon. Servicing is a bit of a shame, as the costs are higher than gas boiler servicing. I doubt it has anything to do with the complexity of the job - it takes just as much time (properly less) to do and there's a not a huge amount of work undertaken from what I can see. It must be purely down to the fact that there are fewer engineers trained to do it and so that pushes the cost up. I'm paying twice as much for servicing as I was for my old gas boiler. However on the flip side, I'm saving way more than enough money switching from Gas to ASHP to cover the difference. YMMV.
My boiler packed in years ago now i just use an electric converter heater. Your increase in electric use in Dec 2022 isca great insight into the basic running cost of the pump and I'm shocked. I was considering it but no way in the world im going to with that figure
I've been running a heat pump for 15 months now including during one of the coldest winters we've had for years and it's been significantly cheaper to run than my old gas boiler. Just sayin'.
@@TheRamblyChannel well if I had your running costs I'd be pulling the plug
Just sayin
@@angleseyandy9110 My neighbour of an identical 3 bed semi has ASHP while I have gas. We ran a back to back test with same heating settings over winter of last year and his bill was significantly less than mine (over £280). When you factor in the fact that gas (as a finite resource) will go up relative to electric, it feels to me that now might be the best time to make the most of available grants. Just saying 😂
I still believe that those who are sold heat source pumps will be offered routes of compensation, by the “were you miss sold”industry which will bloom from this, just like “ISA savings and mortgages”, “PPI”, “Diesel emissions”, et all. In general most countries can’t and are not producing enough electricity, and even if they did haven’t improved the infrastructure to support the current usage. Plus that which is supplied is being generated via gas fired generators. All we are doing is outsourcing the production. In 2021-2022 and again in 2022-2023 people where being paid to not consume as much electricity at times?
20 years ago UK was using about 60GW peak per day, currently its about 35GW (@40GW in Winter).
So plenty space on grid.
Heat pumps are not new technology, although relatively new to UK they've been in use and development for past 60 years in Scandinavia & USA to name but two. So unlikely there'll be a PPI type scandal. Although there might be an installer scandal where systems have been badly designed and under or over spec'd (just as bad if not worse), systems that are not fit for purpose.
Typically > 50% renewable generation on grid, and that rising each day. Last year renewables provided on average 33.7% of UK electricity per day, some much better, some worse.
And for each kW of solar PV generated at a house, that's 1kW less needing generated from gas. With heat pumps converting that to typically 3.5kW of heat it becomes a win win situation.
@@_Dougaldog is that why we are being offered money back not to use electricity on set days and times, to reduce load? As that is the case I would suggest there is BS coming from some where and it is not here!
@@markwierzbicki5307 you should switch to Octopus Energy, where often you get paid to consume energy - where generation exceeds demand, and consumption is needed to balance the grid.
@@michaelwinkley2302 that sounds great, the more you use, the less you pay! They even pay you to use it to balance the grid! Sounds Incredible! All that because they own the power generators. So which electricity generators are owned and run by Octopus Energy?
@@markwierzbicki5307 not sure what the point of your question is - it is a fact that if you're on Octopus Agile tariff and there's negative wholesale prices in the day ahead market, you'll get paid to consume energy during the negative pricing period - makes zero difference who is generating the excess electricity.
Where do you get your average temperature data from?
The biggest issue is still the up front cost for the kit and the installation, then possibly/probably an upgrade of radiators. Most people don't have the spare cash to spend on an install and the grants are tailing off or limited to people with dire circumstances. You have to work out the pay back time, and frankly for many it just isn't worth it. I am all for saving the planet but I ain't going to be in hock to do it.
imagine you have laminate floors or wood floors throughout
not going to happen,,,
Er... Why?
@@TheRamblyChannel money duh!
Grant has just increased in England from £5k to £7.5k to all owner occupiers, but on a first come first serve basis. And interest free loans to cover upfront costs.
Grants for those claiming any benefits is a separate issue.
Not many work out a payback time for the new kitchen, bathroom or TV et al.. Or the £3k foreign holiday 😈
Here in Soviet Wales you get it virtually paid for you if on benefits, and get nothing if you are on low pay but not on benefits.
Here in Finland our apartment complex (303 flats altogether) is heated with radiators. The energy source used to be from a combined heat and power electricity power station that used to run on coal but nowadays uses mixed bio fuels including wood chips and lignin waste from the paper mills. So no fossil fuels. Steam from the power station is fed by underground pipes to buildings all over town where heat exchangers capture the heat. But now we are switching to ground source heating and solar panels fixed to the roofs. Life expectancy of the system is 25 years. It is funded by a bank loan that is estimated to be paid back in 8 years from the savings over the previous system. So in 8 years time we will all be paying less for our heat and hot water.
Incidentally, Finland has lots of wind power from wind farms sitting high above the forest canopy in areas not heavily populated by people so no complaints about noise. Electricity costs are low (about 13 cents per KwH) about half of which is nuclear, one quarter wind and one quarter hydro. So again very low carbon footprint. The heating system can be tuned to the electricity price so we generate heat during the off-peak period and not during the morning and early evening peaks, so it balances the system load which is a national objective.
So interesting to hear. Sounds like great progress where you are. Each move to a more sustainable heating system is another tick in the box. Thanks for sharing!
Could you give the location of this weather station? Is it on a blacktop site? Are Met Office stats reluable?
Excellent video and detailing the benefits very clearly. I found it interesting and informative. However...
Whilst I appreciate your desire to be green, for the majority of people , I would suggest, it's about keeping warm and affording the whole thing. I have a 3 bed detached built in 1989 and the ground floor is micro bore of 10mm. As flow rate is key this restricts this severly. Upstairs is 15mm so that OK but two installers have recommended replacing the 10mm with 15mm pipe. With a concrete floor and expensive flooring to rip up and replace my quotes are around £15-16k. Simply out of the question. The initial cost is prohibitive without those issues and I wish you could be clear about your costs excluding extra work done of course.
This is the whole problem with the "smugness" that surrounds this across the green agenda. Its Ok for the well or comfortably well off. The majority of people can't afford to virtue signal their way to heating their homes. We are simply not there yet in terms of technology vs costs. Maybe for most running costs over 10-15 years will be cheaper but paying so much up front is just not feasible or realistic. I like the principal and would have one tomorrow is the cost was £5-7k. But its not, again for most.
Don't get me wrong I think the video was superb and I am much more comfortable if I move to a house that has one. But if the point if making us all greener to "save the planet" which given the UKs minimal output of CO2 anyway will have near on zero impact in reality then this whole net zero thing really is nothing more than a patronising, cultist culture by those who can afford it anyway and resolutely and flat earth like listen only one side of the argument/debate.
Well written. The unwritten, unsaid and unmentioned elephant in the the room is the exorbitant cost of “green” systems. The costs include purchase of the heat pump, plumbing, potentially new radiators and pipework, electrical installation and set-up, potentially a heat store for hot water and the we have the costs of running the system. No matter what the virtue signalling greenies say, these things are not cheap. So how will the poor afford these things? Who pays for social housing? Where will the additional electrical generation come from? The shouty greenie brigade are really good at spending OUR money and not providing answers. Remember, nothing we do will change ever change anything as our CO2 emission is negligible.
This.
Let's not forget all the virtue signallers going with their electric cars which will cause blackouts this coming winter by causing too high a demand on the network. We got away last winter with two shutdowns in our area but can't see that this year.
Still, firing up a coal powered station is so much better for the environment than an efficient gas boiler or 70mpg diesel car...😂
Is there no overnight rate with your supplier and since you are all electric how do you determine the specific use by the ASHP ?
Hi Andy,
Please tell me if need to install same setup you have please tellme the company name and how much it was cost to you.
Thanks
An overlooked cost on an ashp is the £250 average annual service price vs half the price or less for a gas boiler. This equates to 1250 to 2500 saved over 10 to 20 years.
Will an ashp last near the coast with salt air?
Do they least dirty stains on the house over time where they pull air in from the rear?
Service costs are a fair point, however this is a supply and demand issue and as they become more common costs will start to even out.
The heat pump I purchased is one that is supposed to cope with salt air well and after 2 years it's looking like new, so so far so good! No dirty stains anywhere either.
I've said it before in comments and in videos and I'll say it again here. A gas boiler is dirty technology causing climate changing damage and reducing the health of the population. A heat pump is much cleaner (even if it uses "dirty" electricity) and as the grid becomes ever more greener, so does the heat pump. A gas boiler will always be polluting, dirty and life-span reducing. When you consider it in those terms, a few quid here or there really isn't a big deal IMHO.
Was the gas totals in 2021 including a gas water boiler? And in 2022 was the electric totals including an electric water boiler / tankless electric water boiler?
Thanks for that. Interesting to hear your figures.
You never mentioned if the thermostat had been changed to a different temperature or duration setting. Also was your old boiler a condensing boiler. And do you have underfloor heating or radiators.
You mentioned cooking but didn't say about hot water production.
Otherwise it was good for an ordinary home owner.
Thanks for your feedback and apologies for not explaining things in more detail. It's probably because I have a companion video where I talk about the installation and that covers most of your points. I have radiators (no underfloor heating). My old boiler was condensing. My thermostat is set to 21 degrees as was the old one with the gas boiler. The ASHP has a setback temp of 18 degrees. My hot water was cylinder based with the gas boiler (which is a little unusual but I live in a chalet bungalow so that was the best option for water pressure). The ASHP has a new water cylinder that's more efficient than the old one. Space wise all the equipment takes up less space if you don't count the new pipework that's gone in the loft because that was in an area that was previously boarded up! I cut a new door in the stud wall. If you watch my installation video you'll see more about how it's been set up. It's not a technical video so aimed at the home owner. Thanks for watching!
After installing my gas combi boiler and hydronic air handler, I am saving 30-40% and my house is very warm and comfortable at 22 celsius all winter. I didn’t need a government subsidy because it was way cheaper then a cheat pump.
True, but still chucking a couple of tons of CO2 plus other nasties per year into atmosphere...
@@_Dougaldoggreat for the trees and plants.
It's interesting how differently this equation plays out in various parts of the world. In the US, we replaced our 12 year old, failed electric hot water heater with a model that includes a heat pump on top, with conventional heating elements inside the unit. After various rebates and incentives, the net cost difference was about $400 more than a conventional replacement, similar to the one that failed. Our total electricity cost, year over year, dropped by right around $18/mo, for an annual savings of $216. In two years time the additional cost of the model with a heat pump will have payed for itself in savings. Presuming it lasts another 10 years after that, my math says I will have reduced my cost by over $2,000. When you consider that the cost of electricity will likely increase during that time, the saving will probably be greater, or at the very least adjusted for inflation. We also have an ASHP as part of our HVAC system, which has lowered our propane usage considerably, during the shoulder seasons.
That's interesting to hear. Unfortunately the current administration in the UK is largely funded by the fossil fuel industry and if they'd like to sue me for saying that then I'd welcome the opportunity to discuss the matter with them further in the courts. 😁
You should really stick to fact and figures rather than opinions if you are going to comment on a scientific channel.
@@MarkAAshdown - Are you implying that this RUclips video is part of a "scientific channel", or are you suggesting that the producer of the video stick to facts and figures?
@@TheRamblyChannel - That doesn't really make sense, because they're pushing heat pumps even harder in the UK than they are in the US, which will cut into the bottom line of the fossil fuel industry.
I have a "new build" with circa 12mm pipes feeding the duel radiators. Can you advise if you think is suitable for a ASHP?
I'm not a heating engineer so am not qualified to advise. However, my pipes are probably about that and it works with mine. Definitely get some professional advice.
As someone who is considering to move to this , what provider did you use . What was the maintenance like and accessibility?
I used a local supplier as I already use them. Maintenance is fine as the Heat Pump has to be placed away from the wall and have clearance all around it so servicing will be a breeze. Internally, you need some components to be installed and how accessible these are will depend on your home, for me most were placed in the loft and an airing cupboard and can be easily accessed for servicing. I hope that helps. Thanks for watching!
What happens to the calculations when you add solar? If your house is super insulated and you run the heat pump with free electricity???
The insulation in my home is OK, but could probably be better. It's something I'll revisit in the near future for sure. My solar system is a small one (1.6kW) so although it helps with the heat pump and often gives me free hot water it's not going to give me free heating. I want to add more panels and a battery and then things will be very different. At that point I'll make a comparison video where I'll be able to directly see what difference a modest solar and a battery will make to the running costs.
Besides the cost analysis, was your heat pump heating your house comfortably compared to gas during the winter time?
Yes, in fact I'd go as far as to say that having a nice constant heat without the fluctuations you experience with gas has made it far more comfortable. When I had a gas boiler, I'd find my skin would crack in a few places during the winter. Painful! Since getting an ASHP the problem has gone away - that's over 2 winters now. I put it down to the level heat in the house rather than the up and down of heating with gas.
The setback Temperature should never be any more than 3 degrees below the normal heating temp .
By setting the system up like this it gives you even more efficiency as you're always keeping a good thermal mass in the property and the heat pump doesn't have to do harsh warm ups
Thanks Terry. After I made this video I shifted my set-back temp back up to 189 degrees. My COP calculations have been around 4.7 over the last few months and it alll seems to be going OK. As you've already worked out, I'm no expert on such matters so am learning all the time! Thanks very much for your feedback.
@@TheRamblyChannel4.7 COP is amazing! Looking forward to an update on the running costs.
How good are heat pumps at filling baths with hot water say 6 times each night will they cope or are you waiting.
It's not something I've tried! To be honest, that's down to your hot water system and not specifically the heat pump. If you have a hot water cylinder that's large enough to hold the water required then the heat pump can certainly heat that up! Perhaps speak to Heat Geeks as they're good experts on such things (tell them I sent you - they won't know who I am though!)
Overall what is the pay back time against the installation cost of the system,
That's irrelevant in my opinion. The first time you install any replacement technology for anything it will always cost more than swapping whatever is there currently with a new model. But that doesn't mean replacing like-for-like is the right thing to do. It definitely isn't when it comes to anything that uses fossil fuels.
That said, I believe that over its lifetime my ASHP will almost certainly be cheaper overall (even factoring in the installation costs) than running a new gas boiler over the same period, provided that the energy markets are sorted out in the next few years. But even if that doesn't happen, the worst case scenario is that I should break even. And even if that doesn't happen, I know I've done the right thing for my home, the planet and the air we breath and at the end of the day, that's the most important thing.
Some great comparison, the big problem is we are being forced to play a game that we have no idea what the rules are ,and that's how the GOV shaft us every time , as they are also doing with electric cars
The move to electric cars is happening despite of, not because of, government. Your conspiracy theory is misplaced. Electrification offers us the opportunity to bring down our carbon footprint, reducing the impact on the environment contributing to climate change and also improve the state of human health - we breath in some pretty horrible stuff from gas boiler and car emissions. For me it's a no brainer and has absolutely nothing to do with whichever bunch of charlatans are currently in Downing Street. Thanks for watching!
@TheRamblyChannel
Climate change BS ,
Not driven by people ,its a planetary cycle nothing more nothing less .stop believing the crape your fed like sheep
@@TheRamblyChannelrubbish the government knew about unobtainable costs for the energy transition to Met Zero. . The proof is in their latest energy bill. Even the heading of it is enough on its own to be a lot of money
@@TheRamblyChannelthis bit is rubbish
I've been offered on a grant.. Loft insulation, Cavity wall insulation, Ventilation upgrades, Air source heat pump, Solar PV
Should i take and get rid of gas altogether?
My house was build in 1965 and needs repointing so I'm worried about damp. Thanks
It's difficult to say... I'm no expert and every case will be different. All I would say is to make sure that whoever you're dealing with has all the necessary qualifications and certifications to offer those services. Sadly, there are plenty of cowboys out there. On the face of it, this sounds perfect. Insulation is top of the list for things to do to reduce bills and energy use. I'm also a big fan of Solar PV and ASHP (both have been excellent for me). Just do as many checks as you can, speak to people who have used that company and can genuinely recommend them, compare the costs and savings (and make sure they're checked and verified). Basically, do your homework as you would with any major undertaking like this. Good luck!
@TheRamblyChannel thank you. I'm worried about getting cavity wall insulation if I've got some damp as I've heard it can make it worse. But I'll do some checks of the company anyway
Whuch one works , a gas boiler or a heat pump.? Well we got the answer last December 2022. The temperature went down to minus 8 or more for a sustained period and i had to lend a friend in a new house with a heat pump 2 electric radiators . His heat pump was useless.
Perhaps your friend's unit is broken or wasn't installed correctly. The temperature here dropped to minus 10 during last winter. I had no problem with my heat pump keeping me nice and toasty. It may be as simple as his flow temperature needing to be tweaked by the installer. 🤷♂️
My heat pump as well as myself can be tweaked by the company who installed it from their end. Something not right with yours
Interesting presentation and video, thank you for taking the time to do it. I realise this was several months ago but if you want to satisfy yourself on a more ‘scientific’ approach you really need to normalise your data for degree days. Hopefully you are now running on an optimised weather compensation curve with no room influence.
You mentioned “solar panels...in summer” is that solar pv?
Yep
Im thinking of replacing my combi with a heat pump, so this was all very interesting! Did you need to replace radiators too, or did you have underfloor heating?
I've already swapped out my gas hob for an induction one (love it!!!), and paying the standing charge for gas is begining to grate a little for the 9 months of the year when I hardly use it!
Hi Martin. I made a video about the installation and I talk about exactly that subject! You can watch it here: ruclips.net/video/IdajIk1WNO8/видео.html
I agree 100% about the gas standing charge. I'm seriously thinking of getting an induction hob (if they do it as part of a Range sized appliance) and then I can get the gas cut off. 😊
Don't rush into it. They aren't any good in cold weather.
It was minus 10 here in December and I was nice and warm. How cold do you want it to get? 😳
You'll get a significantly higher cop with underfloor heating so its a good upgrade to do at the same time especially if you value low heating costs in future over the cost of install today. Similarly If you install insulation you also win twice with a heat pump vs just once with gas. You have a reduced annual heating demand (same as with gas) but also a higher cop - assuming your heat pump heating controls are setup correctly.
@@nickflynn666 All good points. My property isn’t suitable for underfloor heating but proves that heat pumps work fine with radiators if that’s your only option. Insulation is important. Mine is not bad but could probably be better so it’s something I will look into having redone if the opportunity presents itself. Thanks for your wise words 👍🏻
Weve just renewed our gas boiler with 5 year warranty with a full cost of £1150. Wheres the problem? It took 1.5 days total.
The problem is the pollution caused by the gas you're burning and the toxic fumes coming out the flue. These shorten the life span of your family and neighbours. I don't doubt it's cheaper to install initially, but that's not comparing apples with apples. That cost factor won't be the case in the long term and frankly whatever the costs, personally I'd rather not be responsible for posioning people so that we can all live a bit longer.
And if it's typical it will add 2 Tonnes of CO2 per year to atmosphere along with a few other nasties. Domestic gas heaters in UK produce more CO2 than cars...
Why did you alter the fallback temperature in December to 15c? That alone would surely increase the cost of operating.
Yep. You're very likely correct about that. This is very much a learning experience for me and I discovered soon after I made that decision that the fallback (sometimes called setback) temperature is nothing to do with frost protection. Avoiding the heat pump having to work too hard (i.e. heat up quite a few degrees quickly) will indeed keep the costs down. My setback temperature has been set to 18 degrees now for some time, which is 3 degrees lower than my normal room temperature of 21 degrees.
Can you put a system in that currently has microbore pipework for all radiators. My property is an 18th century stone house where standard 15mm pipes are not possible.
That's a great question. I've heard that microbore can be a problem, but I'm no way qualified enough to comment. I suggest you contact a heating engineer to discuss this. It's worth getting a few opinions as there's mixed knowledge out there even from the professionals. Thanks for watching!
How much is your heat pump to servive each year compared to a gas boiler
My last gas boiler service (in September 2021) was £85. My first heat pump service (in September 2023) was £210. Quite a difference. To be fair, the plumber I was using for my gas boiler servicing had low overheads and was probably not charging the going rate. However, the ASHP service was a lot more than I was expecting. It may simply be the case that engineers for heat pumps are thin on the ground and this will enivitably put the cost up until that changes.
Are you in your EV yet? We're looking to purchase a used VW ID.3. seems to tick all of our boxes. We do not have off street parking but a friend has offered us the use of his driveway for charging. Much cheaper than public charging. 👍
Yes, I've had the new EV for a month now - hopefully a video will be on the channel before too long.
The ID.3 is a lovely car - you won't be disappointed, I'm sure. Public charging is expensive but OK for the odd top up or when you have no choice on a long journey.
I'm charging up paying full rate as the cheap overnight rates don't make sense for me because of my heat pump. Overall it would cost me much more. But even paying 34p per kWh it's still way cheaper than petrol or diesel.
@@TheRamblyChannel is that right? You could choose the hot water cylinder to heat up on the cheap rate too , maybe that would offset the heating increase
@@TheRamblyChannel Petrol hybrids are slightly more expensive per mile than EVs at that price point, but the capital difference in price between an ID3 and a Corolla more than makes up for that. The EV will eventually beat a petrol hybrid, but it will take a very long time.
He might change his mind about using his drive now given the number of spontaneously combusting EVs now
Hmm. That 1.5 degree outside temperature will make a real difference to adhp efficiency. In November the temperature difference was even more skewed towards the heat pump. What's telling is that the efficiency of a heat pump drops significantly when it gets cold. Yes, there's still energy to be had but it takes more energy input to get it. And let's be honest this would have been more telling had this been over January, February and March. The statement that they get 3 X the energy input drops to around 1:1 at zero degrees. This is an interesting video but it does dodge the coldest time of the year.
Hi Mark Thanks for your feedback. On the contrary, there were some extremely cold temperatures during the review period. Perhaps you didn't watch the entire video? It was far colder across much of December than it was at any point during the following three months.
My COP figures were incorrect in this video - I'd been given the wrong method of calculating it. In actual fact, the COP was as better, as the following updated list shows:-
(some of September) - October 2022 - COP = (590 + 163) / 163 = 4.62
November 2022 - COP = (1091 + 286) / 286 = 4.81
December 2022 - COP = (2077 + 717) / 717 = 3.9
As you can see, the ASHP was generating close to 5 times the energy input for most of this period and only dropped just below 4 times during the coldest month I've experienced since purchasing it (December 2022).
However you look at it, I'm a long way from 1:1 even when it was -7 outside (which it was for much of December).
Also when the temperature is less than minus 5 C the unit will start to freeze up which then the unit will go into
reverse mode to consume electric to defrost the unit, what cost for that calculation.
The Idea requires a rethink, also it is probably cheaper to have individual aircon units with heat pump facility for each room each fully controllable (time and temp) which gives you the option to cool you in the hot weather (at a cost) but well worth it.
@@melviniq1169 I don’t know where you got that from. In December the temperature was as low as minus 10 and my COP wasn’t impacted, my house was warm and the unit, while working harder for sure, didn’t have any noticeable drop in performance 🤷♂️
I think its optimistic to say that electricity is 3 times that of gas. On my current tariff its 4 times, and I've seen it go up to 4.5 times for some periods.
It's an average and this is something that will change over time. I agree it varies. I'm on a tariff with different rates during the day and this varies from 2.4 times difference to as much as 6.3 times difference depending on the time of day. The markets will eventually be sorted out at which point the gas price will likely go up and the electricity price will almost certainly come down as the vast majority of electricity generation is cheap. Ironically it's the wholesale gas price that pushes it up so much.
What was your inside temperature over the period?
I had the temperature set to 21 degrees mostly, but on very cold days I increased it a little. The house was just as warm as it was when I had a gas boiler.
Also, you can make electricity at home with PV solar. Try doing that with gas.
Totally agree. I have solar PV on my house and although it's a small system it does well enough for me to be sending energy back to the grid in the middle of the day in the summer. I have plans to do something about that though. 😉
@@TheRamblyChannel So was your 'free' PV power factored in the figures? The fact that you have PV sort of distorts the comparison for others who don't have PV.
@@barrieshepherd7694 My PV system is very small (1.6kW) and during the period in question had negligible impact on the figures. However it’s a fair point to raise. It will have had some impact however small that is. It’s impossible to include that in the calculations because of how solar PV generation fluctuates during the day, however take it from me that it wouldn’t come close to drawing any different conclusions from the results in the video.
@@TheRamblyChannel Your 1.6 kW solar could have been throwing 3+ kW to your heat pump each day which would mean that something approaching 90 kW per month could have been used from solar and not factored in the numbers you presented. For those that don't have solar that is a significant cost.
@@barrieshepherd7694 I can assure you it wasn’t doing that much. Not even close. I wish it was! I know you’re trying to imply that my ASHP isn’t efficient. It is. It’s a far better way to heat a house than a gas boiler. 300% - 500% is a much larger number than 80% wherever you went to school.
Really useful video and great presentation. Thanks!
Glad you enjoyed it! Thanks so much for watching and sending your feedback. 😊
So what about if you have an old house, nothing like the wall in ansulation for new builds. what if you have solid walls or no under floor insulation. let's see what the fitting cost and the running cost and let's see if it keeps the temperatures you get with gas?
It's not going to suit all homes, that's for sure. There will be edge cases where alternative solutions will be needed, such as electric boilers or even high temperature versions of heat pumps (there are some interesting options in both of those areas already). The fact remains that most homes can be insulated and that's all you need for a low temperature ASHP to be a viable option.
Excluding the standing charge isn’t ideal. You can see with the figures they are hiking the standing charge to compensate for people with solar. It will keep rising and rising for electric so they make money even if you don’t consume. The reason to kill off petrol and diesel cars is to protect the electricity companies as it’s getting to the level where a generator is cheaper than the grid. Watch for diesel prices to be hiked for no reason when electricity goes up.
Yeah but standing charges are very close to each other for gas Vs electric. The difference between them for me is about £5 a month absolute tops, which doesn't fundamentally change the results of this video.
That doesn't mean I'm saying standing charges are fair or unfair. Just that it doesn't (right now) materially affect the comparison because none of the months were within £5 of each other.
..obviously when you ditch gas you save the standing charge altogether
Do you have solar pv?
Haha the conspiracy’s are thick here, most of that standing charge increases is covering the cost of people not paying their bills and energy companies collapsing.
@@edc1569my standing charge is now costing me more than my bills were with Ebico who didn’t charge standing charge until they brought the price cap in which included standing charge by default.
Sure wholesale price has gone up but given my usage has gone down I don’t think the entirety of standing charge is really just for people who don’t pay and a bit of green subsidy.
The stupid thing is we should be getting rid of standing charge for gas and having gas boilers for high delta T requirements and water heating sizing the heat pump appropriately. Won’t happen though as they are trying to create a monopoly for electric.
In 2021 it would have been a covid year with restrictions still in place. Would you not have spent more time at home, this then skewing the number?
Nope. My daily routine wasn't affected at all during COVID as I run a home based business. The household carried on as it had done before and after lockdown with literally no changes whatsoever.
Your question is a fair one, as most people did change their routines - some by quite a bit, however for me nothing altered at all.
Brilliant video Andy, can I just ask are you on radiators or underfloor and what flow temperatures do you typically set your heat pump to and is weather compensation enabled. Great figures! Cheers
Hi Chris. Glad you enjoyed the content. I have radiators and no underfloor heating. According to the MCS certificate the flow temperature is 50 degrees, however I don't think that's quite correct. My system has an outdoor sensor that adjusts the flow temperature, i.e. the weather compensation that you refer to. According to the schematics, the flow temp can range anywhere from 15 to 45 degrees. All the best, Andy.
great video, but what you and others dont tell us is what temperature your house is able to run at and how ti costs dependant on cast
Hi Martyn. I can set my house to whatever temperature I want, it's no different to dirty fuel options in that respect. If I want to sweat it out at 25 degress I can do that. I have mine set to 21 degrees and it's able to maintain that whatever the temperature is outside.
The flow temperature of my heating circuit is 23 degrees.
I'm afraid I don't understand the last part of your query - I few typos there I suspect.
Hope that helps
You could factor in the daily charge for gas, if you're able to go fully electric and remove the gas connection you save that also.
It's a fair point and something I'm activetly considering doing 👍🏻
There is a daily charge for electricity too
@twistedcherrypop Yep, but if only have electricity connection, you're only paying for one, so saves about 110 quid a year at current price I think.
So how long would it take for the savings to break even on the massively increased capital cost? Even with a government subsidy - which I honestly don't think will be around for long anyway - you're looking at decades even if you can afford the capital outlay, which most people can't. The majority of households willlaugh in your face if you tell them they have to spend between three and up to five times or more to get a heat pump rather than a new gas boiler but don;t worry, it will pay for itself in twenty years time (assumign it lasts that long, which it probably won't). And that is before you get into the huge problem of needing very high standards of insulation which a majority of UK properties won;t have and maybe having to replace the radiators as well. To really make sense, a heat pump shold be backed with EV solar panels and a battery....at which point the costs become stratospheric. UK homes were built around having cheap fossily fuel heating via coal fires, and with lots of ventilation. Sadly I suspect we will see lot sof heat pumps being installed by unscrupulous persons into poorly insulated homes which will then stay cold.
Hi Richard I understand your comments, and unfortunately you're not alone in having them. For me, getting a heat pump wasn't just about the money it was about the environmental aspects of it too. That's why I have solar panels and and EV as well. (And before anyone comments about where the electricity comes from, it's sourced mainly from renewable sources and will get greener and greener over time whereas a gas boiler will always burn dirty fossil fuels.)
The government grants are active until 2027. Did it cost more than getting a new gas boiler? Almost certainly. However, has it brought down my carbon emissions? Yes, definitely. And is that the most important thing? For me, yes, without doubt.
The life of a new gas boiler is now 10 years (15 at a push). Mine was 19 years old but as efficiency targets only ever get more challenging, 10 years is much more likely to become the norm. My ASHP has an estimated lifespan of 20 - 25 years.
As you saw if you watched the video, the heat pump was cheaper to run than my gas boiler over this period. And that's in a 70 year old home with modest insulation. I still have the same radiators in the majority of the house. What is the payback time? To be honest, I haven't calculated it for the reasons I lay out above.
I have a feeling that as pressure to hit net zero increases (and it will only ever become more urgent) the cost differences between fossil fuels and renewables will get closer and my switch to green will pay for itself far sooner than it appears it will right now. That's what happened when I got my solar panels 10 years ago and I can see the same thing happening with my heat pump. But even if it doesn't, I'm very happy that I made the switch.
Thanks for your comment. I hope you appreciate where I stand on this. Your opinions are valid and I very much welcome open and constructive debate on these things.
What does everyone else think?
How long will it take to break even on a new gas boiler purchase? I don't see why so many people feel the need to understand the payback. When someone buys a new car people don't ask what the payback period is, or for a new kitchen a conservatory and so on.
@@johntisbury Because the gas boiler and heat pum,p do the same job - but the heat pump costs more. So the only way to justify the much higher capital expenditure is an expectation of lower running costs - hence the break even point. My goal is to have a warm house. If you want me to spend three times as much on a heat pump, it sure as heck better have lower running costs so that I recoup the difference in outlay.
I think people DO look at running cost when buying a new car. If a car costs three times a smuch to buy in the first place, it needs a compelling reason to buy it. And if you had a choic eof conservators, one costs £3000, the other £9000 which one are you going to pick? If the expensiv eone costs less to heat, you'd want that £6000 back in savings before it fell down wouldn;t you? otherwise it's just pointlessly pissing money away.
@@richardgregory3684 up are mixing up ticket price comparisons with payback analysis. Whilst they are somewhat intertwined, my initial point was that the obsession with payback only seems to affect green purchases; solar PV, home batteries, heat pumps etc.
You show off your new Audi, BWM car to your friend, they don't say "What's the payback period on that?" Same with a new kitchen, conservatory etc.
@@johntisbury Well, I'll try again, since you obviously did not understand the first time around. A new heating system isn;t like a new conservatory, because you can have heating systems that work in radically different ways, but do exactly the same job. A heat pump and gas boiler both keep your home warm. There's no fundemental difference there. So it comes down to price. Given a heat p[ump costs a hell of a lot more than a gas boiler, you have to look for benefits a heat pump offers over a gas boiler to justify spending so much more money. If the benefit is lower annual energy bills, then you have to ask, how long will it take for those lower energy bills to genuinely counterbalance the massively increased upfront costs? It's a calculation that most consumers will engage in. If you want them to spend an extra £8000 upfront, they will instantly ask so how long will it take for me to get my money back via lower bills? These questions don;t arise with a new kitchen or conservatory although you'd almost certainly look into how much an appliance costs, and whether a more efficient model would pay for the higher price tag via lower running costs.
Its a moot question at the moment, because most peopel simply don;t have enough money to pay for a heat pump in the first place, so lower runnign costs are irrelevant. And "saving the planet" hardly any relevance at all. Peopel care much more about not freezing to death next winter than what climate change will mean in 30 years time.
Great video. I’m looking at getting a ashp to run off my home storage batteries that we fill @ 0.07p per kWh so it could mean massive savings 😊.
Just out of interest how much kWh does the heat pump use on average per day ?
Thanks
Hi Mark. The amount of use varies massively! Back in September when it was just doing the hot water it was low - typically 15kWh total consumption for the whole house with a couple of those generated from my solar panels. That's about 6kWh higher than when I didn't have the ASHP.
When the heating was on, it can be around 20kWh for my whole home and if the sun shines some of that will come from my solar panels. When it was really cold in December the figures were sky high - over 50kWh in just one day!
So to work out just the ASHP electricity use, take about 10kWh off those figures as that's a decent average. Some days will be less, some days more.
Use depends on so many things - your home insulation, size and type of property, type of heating (radiators or under floor), size of pipes if rads, efficiency of the ASHP itself etc etc. There are lots of variables. Your installer will be able to do a full analysis of your home and give you predictions. The analysis I received vastly under estimated how efficient the ASHP would be. It suggested a COP of 3.2 but I got 4.8 last November (yes, the figure is different to the video - I've just discovered this week that I was told how to calculate COP incorrectly and my system actually did better... I'll be making a follow up explaining it all later this year).
Home batteries will help, I'm thinking of that myself. But a typical battery might be 10kWh and while it will help reduce the cost, if it's really cold and you're using uber amounts of power for your heating then it might not make much of a dent. If you work out the cost of the batteries and the saving then it will likely take some time to pay back. That said, I'm still thinking about home batteries myself as it's the way to go.
I hope that helps!
Work off of 4mwh to heat & hot water 3 bed house.
Thanks Andy for the breakdown, I've been searching for a good review of this specific ASHP and these two videos have been fantastic!
I have a couple of follow up questions if you don't mind :)
1. Can I ask how roughly much this system cost to install?
2. What flow temperature are you running your system at?
3. How responsive have you found your heating system to be?
Much appreciated and thanks again :D
Hi @metalhead2550 I'm so pleased you enjoyed the videos and they were helpful.
Here are answers to your questions:
1. I had several jobs done at the same time and paid one bill. Some was VAT free (under the current green energy scheme) and some wasn't (those elements not directly related to the Heat Pump install). It's especially tricky to separate out the labour costs from all this and say what was specifically to do with the change over from gas. I'm going to be honest - a heat pump cost more than replacing with a new gas boiler. However, for me, moving to a green energy alternative trumps that expense. I have a feeling that over the lifetime of the heat pump it will (at worst) cost about the same as having a new boiler would've done but I have a feeling that I can make savings over the medium- to long-term. Making the switch to green energy for me had a certain element of 'doing the right thing' about it.
2. According to the MCS certificate it's 50 degrees, however the unit has an external temp sensor and uses weather compensaton. According to the schematics, the flow temp can be anywhere between 15 and 45 degrees.
3. Hot water is very quick to heat up - no complaints there at all. Heating takes longer than it did with a gas boiler, but it's not excessively long. To give an idea, I had my gas boiler turn the heating on about 45 minutes before I got out of bed, I've got the ASHP coming on about an hour and a half before I get up. I can leave the heating on all day - none of this faffing around with turning the heating off when I left the house as I did in the past with Hive controls. The ASHP is clever enough to only use the energy it needs to and it's much more efficient to leave it on all day in the winter.
I hope that helps. Thanks so much for watching!
my house warms up in 10mins with gas,,,,, @@TheRamblyChannel
With some of the tariffs now available e.g. (Octopus Agile) heat pump easily cheaper to run. Definitely dump gas altogether, that gas hob very inefficient compared to electric induction.
You're so right. I was looking at cookers with induction hobs today (again). I'm still hoping to have gas out of my life completely before the end of the year. Please subscribe and hit that notification bell so you know when that happens and can share in my celebration!!
I would like to see a video covering one year and comparing the KWhs rather than the cost of the fuels. I would recommend an induction hob.
That's a fair suggestion. I was originally going to make a follow-up video with the next 3 months, but changed supplier who then wouldn't give me access to my old data so that idea went down the drain! There's so much to consider. I'll be making another heat pump video soon as there's more to say and I've learned so much since I made this one. Thanks for watching! 😁
I am having a ASHP put in shortly and the reason is that I have solar panels and a 10kw battery storage unit and use the Octopus GO cheap off peak tarrif to charge the Car and my batteries during the night at 8p a KW so this is the way to go to get the best and cheapest way to run the system, might add another 10kw of batteries in 12 months time so as to keep on the off peak price.
You're spot on there. Unfortunately I can't afford to add batteries to my solar system. My array is tiny (installed in 2012 - systems are much bigger now) and due to no room left on my roof I'd need to put them on the garage. The cost of doing that is prohibitive, especially when you add in the cost of a battery. I could've got more panels and a battery instead of a heat pump, however then I'd still be using a gas boiler. My primary objective was to get off gas so the route I took made sense to me. What you're doing sounds fantastic! I wish you well.
what about the cost of repairs and annual service to a heat pump.
Should be considerably cheaper to maintain and last longer than a gas boiler. The servicing charge was more than my old gas boiler, you're correct there. However the savings I've made over the last 12 months more than make up for that.
My father has had engineers out to his system ... most years around Xmas when it stopped working completely for a good 2 weeks (due to Xmas).
@@TheRamblyChannelNo that’s not right.
HP service is £250. Boiler
Hi one big omission to your calcs is the up front investment costs in the ASHP system. Assuming the installer and equipment was not free this should be taken into account on cost of ownership. This would show how many years you would need to run the ASHP to break even with your current system costs and start saving if indeed saving on energy costs is the objective. Even if the gas boiler needed replacing I would guess it’s a lot cheaper to replace than an ASHP system.
I disagree. If you get a new gas boiler, no-one asks you what the installation costs were. If you get a new kitchen no-one rocks up to your house and asks how much the installer charged to fit it. Getting a heat pump was an investment in my home, sustainability and efficiency. Did it cost more than if I'd just replaced my gas boiler? Yes, certainly. Will it cost more when it needs replacing itself in 20 years time? No. Did a gas boiler cost more when it replaced night storage heating or whatever was in before it? Yep, for sure. All things are relative and I can sleep soundly in my bed at night knowing I've done the right thing.
Don't forget to adjust for the efficiency of your old Gas boiler, which was most likely in the 80% range. That means you are winning at any COP above 3.
Thanks Richard. I thought I said something along those lines towards the end of the video, but I might be wrong or didn't make it clear. As it turned out, the method I'd been given by the installer to calculate my COP was incorrect and using the correct method my figures are even better!? Astonishingly. I'll be talking about this in my next heat pump update in April.
@@TheRamblyChannel our Arotherm Plus is being installed in April 🤞
@@UpsideDownFork Great news! I can report that after having my Arotherm Plus for 6 months I have no regrets about getting it. YMMV of course, but I'm sure you're going in having done all your research. It was a leap of faith on my part to a certain extent, but I'm happy I made the switch. Good luck with your install next month. I hope it goes well!
The thing that is missing from these calculations is the loss of interest on the upfront cost of installing the heat pump. At present interest rates (Sept. 23) that is around 5% pA. Taking £10,000 as the installation cost that's £500 per year loss of income.
Comparisons like this only make sense if you are about to swap out your gas boiler. If you have a gas boiler that is working fine with many years life expectancy then the cost of removing it + the cost of buying a ASHP + installation would wreak havoc on any comparative figures. Making the gas boiler option FAR more attractive.
Thanks for the honest presentation. Shouldn't you factor in the overall cost of the heat pump though? I guess, if you're at the point where you need to replace your boiler anyway, then a heat pump makes sense but it seems that the savings you make will take a considerably long time to pay off for the cost of the pump in the first place.
It’s a fair point although the video was specifically talking about running costs. Once you’ve paid for an install you never have to pay for it again, just a replacement pump at some point way in the future. The way I look at it is that if you get a new kitchen people don’t ask you how long it’ll take to pay back. For me it’s an investment in my property and also having a more environmentally acceptable heating system. Thanks for watching and sending your feedback! 😊
@TheRamblyChannel exactly right.
I can't think of item that is purchased for the home where payback time is considered.
Kitchen, bathroom, garden, decorating, rewiring, new carpets, new roof etc etc.
Back in the day when double glazing was all the rage I didn't hear one single person that I knew that paid to have it installed mention how long it would take to "pay for itself".
I just don't understand why people, usually those who are sceptics, are fixated upon this metric.
Those very same people typically have "invested" in one or more of the " home enhancements" that I mentioned above, and have one, sometimes two tin boxes on wheels on finance in their household.
Friends I know spend £thousands every year trying to hit a ball into a hole in a patch of grass or watching grown men running around for 90 minutes or more attempting to gain posessionnof a ball and then trying to dispose of it between two wooden posts😂
A mate of mine actually spends over 10 thousand pounds on the latter every year!
Every single person on the planet spends money on items that don't pay for themselves, yet ridicule someone who spends their money on something that benefits the environment and could well provide a personal reward too.
Top tip...if you don't believe in it or can't afford it then don't buy it. Simples.
@@David-bl1bt I guess that's why I never get a new kitchen 😀. In all honesty though, the comparison is slightly different. With a heating appliance, you have a choice of two different options - I'm just going for the cheaper option.
It's also a bit disingenuous to present the running costs of an option but then claim that the installation costs shouldn't matter.
In my case, installation for a heating pump costs £8.5k. I'd make savings of around £200 a year so it would take me over 40 years to recoup the cost.
For some people, recouping the cost is immaterial and if you're one of those people then, great. But I'm sure that a lot of viewers of a video related to "running costs" are interested in all of the costs - not just some of the costs.
@Unshou ..... which is exactly what I've said. If people are going to buy purely the cheapest purchasing option then they will have already determined that a heat pump is not going to be their choice.
The is not being disingenuous at all, he is presenting facts derived from his experience of ownership, ie "running costs" and that the installation costs are not don't matter TO HIM. Clearly if that matter TO OTHERS then they will make their purchasing decision based upon that criteria, as you have made clear.
The cost of the installation is a capital cost, not a running cost. The video title clearly states that it is about the comparitive running costs between a heat pump and a gas boiler.
There are many videos on youtube that detail installation of heat pumps and associated costs, this very channel may indeed have, or will have such a video for those who are interested in installation costs.
I dont know how you determined that you would only save £200 a year by installing a heat pump??....perhaps you could share your data and analysis for comparison with the data presented in this video, it surely would be of interest to those who have come to this channel to discover those costs.
@@David-bl1bt Agreed, the cost of the installation is a capital cost - just an important one (to some, at least).
Actually, the video highlights a saving of just over £200 a year. £109 for the 3 months Oct-Dec and, although not presented in the video, given a similar set of conditions between Jan-Mar, one can assume that a similar saving can be derived (i.e. £109). Giving a total of £218 saving during winter.
In my case, I save a little bit more per month but I don't turn on the heating till November and I tend to turn off the heating in March (if I can get away with it).
Given that I turn off the heating for 7-8 months of the year, there's very little savings to be made during these months and I typically spend around £30-40 on gas during these months. I use a combi boiler so some of that £30-40 of gas goes into heating hot water on-demand. So whilst a heat pump would take over heating the hot water, the savings on £30-40 will be nominal.
Don't get me wrong, I think heat pumps are great and they're important in helping move the country off of our dependence on gas. That said, the initial capital cost is quite off-putting for many and I think more needs to be done to help people move onto a greener way of heating their homes.
During a period when people are struggling with high energy prices, it's a tough ask to expect families to have a large capital outlay.
The standing charge is a significant driver, and I think you have left it out here, which is good. However, how much did you pay for your heat source pump system and all of the alterations it would require. If you have pulled out a serviceable gas boiler system you need to factor in this cost of ownership into your calculations. If the whole thing has cost you £25k, how long will it take to pay you back on your investment vs a gas boiler replacement?
My gas boiler was 18 years old and overdue for replacement. The install cost was a fraction of the amount you've quoted. I really don't know where people get these huge figures from - it doesn't cost anywhere near as much as that!! I could've installed a heat pump in several houses in my street for that. I also don't get why everyone is so focussed on cost. Yes, it's a factor but it's short term thinking. Factor in expected lifespan of an ASHP v boiler, the running and maintenance costs over the time I expect to live in this house and I strongly believe it'll be the cheaper option. But even if it isn't, I feel much better about using tech that doesn't harm the planet or the people on it. A gas boiler will always burn harmful fossil fuels. An ASHP is already green, and will get greener as the grid continues to decarbonise without me needing to lift a finger.
Andy, look at setting your flow temperature to say 30 or 35 degrees.
Set your normal temperature to 19 and fallback to 17 and leave your heating on all the time.
See if that raises your COP. You should be able to get 400% if not more. Apparently with UFH you can get into the 500% range.
Thanls @egg399 that's interesting. I'll run it past the heating engineer who installed my system and see what he says.
EDIT: I've just checked my settings and the flow temperature is set to 32 degrees, my heating is set to 21.5 degrees from 6am to 11.30pm (although it tends to sit at around 20.5 degrees most of the time) with a fallback of 18.5 degrees. According to the MyVaillant app, I currently have a COP for 2024 so far of 4.7. March was 5.1 and so far in April it's 5.7.
@@TheRamblyChannel I’ve not got a HP
yet but watch “Urban Plumber”, that’s where I get my info from. Hoping to get a HP soon. With Rads though.
So electric is 3.2 times gas and the cost of an install is roughly 16000 pounds. A boiler install is 2000-3000. How many years to get your money back?
The install cost wasn't anywhere near as much as that!! It was roughly double the cost of having a new boiler. However, I can't work out why I get comments like yours that focus completely on the price. My carbon footprint is just as important to me. I'm not made of money by any stretch however I felt it worth paying extra for. The heat pump is more efficient, will likely be cheaper to run long term and won't poison the neighbours. Any new install will have an increased cost over just replacing some old tech. No-one asks you when you get a new kitchen why you didn't just paint the cupboard doors and put sticky tape over the cracks because it's cheaper. I really don't get it...!?
@@TheRamblyChannel because there’s lots of people including me in the country who can’t afford the initial layout. Twice the cost of a boiler?!
@@darrencoyle2589if you can't afford, then you just don't buy it, very simple. Comments like yours baffle me as if someone's going to come in your house, rip out your boiler and force you to buy a heat hump.
@@mikeypc3592I watched a video I didn’t agree with and commented on it. Don’t get your knickers in a twist
About 10 years to recover the extra costs of an ASHP against a new gas boiler. Before taking into accounts running costs.
It's not all about the money. I'm not well off, but if I can do something to help reduce my carbon footprint then I'm damn well going to do it. If you get a new kitchen no-one asks you how long it'll take to recover the costs. I don't see why that's something so many people seem obsessed with asking me about the green tech I buy? I've reduced my carbon footprint and less people will die early as a result. You can't put a price on that.
Malcolm's comments are correct, the colder it gets heat pumps struggle!!
Plus they are too expensive to have installeded!
Solar panels with battery storage linked to an electric Boiler is a far better option!!
Do you have an ASHP? From your post that appears to be churning out what the newspapers like to print about the technology, I doubt it. Take it from someone who actually has one in their home - it doesn't struggle in the cold! It's been -10 degrees here and my heat pump coped with it just fine. They have flipping thousands of the things in Norway, and guess how cold it gets there?
Installation costs are falling all the time and it's easily possible to get an install on cost parity with a gas boiler. If I factor in the running costs of my unit then even though it cost me more to install at that time (nearly 2 years ago) than if I'd gone with a poisoning fossil fuel gas boiler, I still anticipate it will cost far less to run over the coming years... and that has proved to be the case so far since installation.
Your electric boiler/solar suggestion is valid, however there's a balance to be made and I'm not convinced the savings of a solution like that would be as much as my heat pump, however as with everything YMMV and any option that doesn't use fossil fuels is a good one.
If gas overall is three times less expensive to use, why is electricity so expensive when a lot of it is produced using gas. Great explanation.
There's a government green levy tax on electricity production for starters, then there's inefficiency at power station (5-10% loss) then more losses through transmission grid @ >10%.
Localised electricity production is much more efficient over all.
Good news is that renewables now provide @ 34% of UK electricity on average per day, and that's increasing as more comes online.
Production cost of offshore wind generation is about 2.7p/kW.
BUT, electricity costs still tied to market cost of gas.... Another government 'challenge'.
I'd love to have an air source heat pump but we'd be forced into changing all our radiators too. The rough cost in total could be £10,000 upwards, so we've no choice but to get a gas boiler (our boiler's leaking & needs replacing). I never put the heating on during the day. I pay considerably less now than you dod a year ago.
Remember there's the boiler upgrade scheme subsidy from the government on these units of £5k :)
@metalhead2550 Yes, and whose funding the rest of it?
Are you sure you'd have to replace all your radiators? My house was built in 1948, has 20 year old insulation and the radiators were all put in with a gas boiler in mind. With all that, I only needed to change 4 out of 10 radiators (including 2 heated towel rails that were too small for the gas set up tbh). It's very unusual for every radiator to require replacing when moving from gas to a heat pump.
As @metalhead2550 points out, the Boiler Upgrade Scheme pays £5000 for a new ASHP and £6000 for a GSHP, plus you save an additional 20% by not having to pay any VAT either for the equipment or the installation - that alone is a massive saving.
If you've only spoken to one installer, you might want to get a second opinon.
@The Rambly Channel This is a Persimmon house. They put in radiators that were too small for the house. One of our radiators is supposed to be a demo one...we've been told that by several different heating engineers. The boiler is the smallest legally allowed but too small, really. Apparently, heat pumps are more powerful & need larger radiators. I don't think they are trying to fleece us: I've been told the same thing by a few people.
@@fenlandwildlifeclips Yikes. That’s a rotten bit of luck. That would limit your options I can see that!
Interesting video, it would be good to include the savings should you remove your gas hob and replace it with an induction one as you could then include the savings of turning off gas completely and saving your standing charge too.
That's a fair comment. Replacing my gas range with an electric one and cutting the gas off is something I'd like to do in the near future. 👍🏻
This is brilliant. Add some solar panels to your home and you'll be paying even less on energy with credits banking it in over the summer time.
I have a small solar system already, but am planning to add more (and perhaps also a battery) in due course. I'm just running the numbers at the moment...!
How about cost of buying heat pump vs cost of buying boiler or cost of repair for both longevity of parts those things may be cost more than raw energy bill ...
How about cost to the planet and all of our wallets if we continue burning fossil fuels 🤷♂️
@@TheRamblyChannel Dat u need to ask Asia, Africa,South America they are the problem but Europe is most taxed and call for it and green talk is getting stupid u cant shovel damage done by 4-5 billion ppl to 500milion it dose not work dat way and nothing will happen even if every single europe buys solar heat pumps and evs will not reduce anything when 4-5 billion ppl keeps burning shit regardless so dat eco tax is to make europe poor nothing good going to come of it and ofc hard working person will ask for price of thing before investing in it and longevity and repair costs if cost out perform benefits then its not worth it in long run it applies to any article someone wish to buy eco/green is a plus thing not must buy thing not must buy thing and most of time eco/green this is worse than original stuff so very skeptic about it all ...
Mitsubishi Electric build some identical houses in Scotland where their factory is so they can run tests like this I believe. They can also test new products to older ones etc. or test with different radiators or other technology.
That's interesting to hear. It's difficult to get an accurate picture of how things are, but with the combination of far better efficiency, much nicer and stable heat in my home and the fact that I'm no longer directly polluting the local environment makes the decision absolutely the right one. I have zero regrets.
Hi, I am a heating engineer, I really struggle with advising clients on what to go for.. its so difficult.
Yes ypur figures show a bit of a financial saving, but, your comparison is between an old gas boiler, probably running radiators at a flow temperature of 70 to 75c with out dated controls.
So it's not like for like.. so I I had installed a good boiler, good controls, not simple timers and thermostat, running at 40 to 45c flow temps, with a boiler actually sized to the required Kw for you home (I would like to bet you ASHP is somewhere between 7 and 10kw , but I bet ypur old boiler was something like 30kw.. huge wastage.
I fit both, so no axe to grind, and like I say I struggle.. and I struggle from an environmental angle too.. what's better, burning gas at your home, minimal wastage, or burning gas to produce your electricity to power your ASHP with huge wastage from the generator to your home..
Plus, your old vaillant I'll fix in half an hour, parts on shelf or in my van.. can we say the same about the ASHP ?
It's a tough one
Lovely video, really well made and certainly food for thought
Gas now produces on average, over the year, less than half of UKs electricity, and decreasing over time, factoring that in greatly reduces the CO2 footprint of electricity used by heat pumps in comparison to Gas Boiler.
Transmission loss on electric grid is about 8% according to National Grid, and a quarter of that to meter inaccuracies and theft.
RUclips does not allow posting links, but 'National Grid ISO' Application for mobile devices gives good, almost real time, data on electricity CO2 production throughout UK.
@_Dougaldog I am not knocking alternative ways to heat our homes, I welcome them, but I am sadly not convinced by any of the figures, we have a mix of lies, damn lies and statistics...
Of course our other big energy source for electrical energy is nuclear, let's factor in thousands of lifetimes of managing the the waste, let alone the risks (however big or small)
As it is I would love to see any grants available go into insulation .. we need to use less of whatever energy it is.
I put my clamp meter on a heat pump last January.. it was drawing 21.7 amps... or 5.2 kw. Or £2 pounds per hour at todays charges
Jeez that's more than an electric boiler/ immersion heater
@angleseyandy9110 indeed.. a basic immersion tank heater is 2000 to 3000 watts. But remember these so call eco heat pumps have to replace 15 kw to 24 kw combi boilers.
So what it can't suck out the air has to be supplemented. The larger units need a dedicated 40 amp feed.
What one did you have? I have 3 (each on a 13amp fuse), and even when it was -14C outside, my whole house wasn't consuming more than 5kW. It also depends on how long it had been running for, the first ~1hr is generally the most inefficient, so if you're just taking one reading after turning it on, you aren't measuring it correctly. Also price cap is under 28p, so 28*.5.2 = ~£1.45, not £2. Would require your electricity to be closer to 40p/kWh to be £2 per hour.
@@BenIsInSweden 3 x13 is 39 amps or 9 kw.
@@richardoakley8800 I'm aware, that's the maximum they'll be able to pull before blowing a fuse, individually they have a max draw of 1.9kW, 2.4kW and 2.02kW. but as I said, my whole house consumption when it was -14C didn't go above 5kW. Even now when it's around -1C, my whole house is below 2kW, whilst keeping it at around 21C.
You can work out how much energy your house requires per degree of outdoor temperature change quite easily if you have had a heat loss survey done and know the total heat loss is and your indoor and outdoor design temperatures. But knowing how long the ashp ran for to provide that heat is hard to know.
If you maintained 21c indoors at -3 outdoors the temperature difference is 24.
If your property heat loss is 8 Kw, then 8000/24 = 333 W per degree of outdoor temperature change. So 2.5 degrees warmer outside would mean the ashp uses 833 W less when running.
great to see real world figures, would be interesting to know how much you paid to have the heat pump system installed, i imagine a bog standard gas combi-boiler is about £3k these days with installation.
Thank you for detailed analysis.
It is bringing me to few conclusions.
1. You forgot to mention what temperature was kept inside your house.
2. I believe difference in outdoor temperature does matter, even 1C.
3. I am really missing information regarding price of getting HP vs new boiler. ( Maybe you mentioned and I missed it.)
4.COP is important part of comparison, but in absolute units, tankless boiler consumes much less electricity than heat pump. If you use condensing boiler,thermal efficiency is hovering around 90%.
Bottom line from my point:
If you live in the region with high electricity rates and low natural gas prices, stay with your boiler.
As well, in really cold winters I wouldn't play with HP.
Tankless for DHW won't get 90% efficiency as it can't benefit from condensing. And they are wasting both water and heat by the not-yet-hot enough water being poured down the drain. If the DHW cylinder is in the home, then no heat is wasted, as any heat loss from the cylinder is lost into the home (at least in winter) as usable heat.
Well,it is not exactly correct.
Efficiency rating for these tanks is stating between 85 to 95%, besides, many of them has little tank and circulator inside,preventing waste of water. Energy consumption even with circulator,still much less than HP.
@@alexanderzaitsev9746 what's your calculation for it using less energy than a heat pump?
@BenIsInSweden tankless heater requires power to operate exhaust fan and electronic components on main board plus gas valve solenoid(s).
Compare to HP - compressor( even inverter), outdoor fan,indoor fan( in case of air to air system.
Definitely I don't have so detailed analysis, but that what my logic based on many years of experience said. I am going to find data and calculate consumption in proper way.
@@alexanderzaitsev9746 so you are only comparing electricity use and ignoring the gas usage as part of the equation?
Need to correct for weather by looking up degree days for that period too
AHH you did, well done
Edit final bit you need to allow for efficiency of the gas boiler, sounds like you had weather compensation on a condensing boiler so might be quite good maybe 90%+ but certainly not 100 , as the flue gas is always warm.
Thanks for your feedback, Lews. My boiler was a Worcester Bosch Greenstar. 90% is probably about right, although it was 19 years old so was estimated to be lower than that. It had been regularly maintained so it can't have been terrible. The weather compensation was provided through Hive TRVs. I didn't mention Hive in the video as it was quite long enough. Thanks for watching!
Hive TRVs is not weather compensation, as it is not altering boiler flow temperature from the boiler dependant on outside temperature, or indeed load control based on internal temperature compared to setpoint. How are you optimising boiler return temperature?