Heat Pump - Running & Install Costs (vs Gas)
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- Опубликовано: 24 ноя 2022
- Now I have some solid data to point in the direction this heat pump is going in, I can finally answer some of your questions.
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Very interesting, EVM. I'm quite smug in that my expectation has been confirmed! If you install a heat pump for financial reasons...at best, if you have a suitable house and a 'good' installation....it costs a fortune to acquire and takes about 100 years to break even!
If you have the funds available.. and are able to take the long view.. and want to do your bit to save the planet, etc - then it's a nice system...if you buy enough tech to support it(batteries etc..)
The problem, for the moment, seems to be that it really IS too expensive for most people - as an overall system.. and there are SO many variables - house, use case, quality of install etc etc...that it just doesn't feel like a good idea.....
The situation badly needs to get some standardisation and some maturity........
Thanks for the real world numbers. I have oil heating in an old house. Need to insulate and it’s time for me to step up👍
Nice video, thanks. We were adding AC to our house in MA in 2018. We use oil forced hot-air. The installer asked me if I wanted a heat pump. I knew little about them, but it was about $1000 more than AC since a heat pump is basically AC plus a reversing valve plus a different condenser. I said yes, and to my surprise have been heating the house cheap and clean since then. Oil was about 100 Gallons a month in the winter months. That's about $500 a month now. Electricity cost us $200 more than our old electric bill in the winter.
If you add the heat pump when you add or replace AC, it's a no-brainer.
A properly useful video that provides really critical information for those of us trying to work out where we are going with all this. Thank you.
Very true. I'll get a heat pump, but I don't expect an ROI
Also, realistically, I need to upgrade my pipes, and radiators first. I want some more solar panels too
A masterclass in straight forwardness, well done. Can hardly wait to see further data, especially December, writing this on 12 Dec, had sub-zero temps for several days, -8C this morning. Output from our solar panels is modest to say the least, especially when cloudy. I suspect the shoulder months of September and October are the sweet spot, modest heat requirement and still good output from solar. Looking forward to a full month by month breakdown.
I am starting the consideration for a massive home upgrade in 2024, so I cannot wait to see the data from EVM as well. I live in Yorkshire with south facing roof, plenty of garden space and side alley space for all the energy production I need. I know it'll not be cheap, but if done right I'll have annual savings straight away and it's a great way to ensure the next owners are already as off the grid as they can be.
Thank you for this. I'm giving series thought to one, the man maths you put in reminds me of my calcs for my solar panels 5years ago, that panned out better than expected
Thanks for another great video. Looked at heat pumps for last 3 years and still on the fence had 2 quotes in last 3 months and were in two minds
Very good and honest feedback. I think a suggestion for future thought process is to use your actual data in the various projects to be able to unite them in one for ideas for those whose funds do not cover all areas and need to set priorities. I say this as for sure many can benefit from what paybacks they can expect for properly done projects. I know in my case with my type of house, in Spain, solar installation and batteries were far quicker paybacks.
Very good and honest video. Your assessment of the pro's and con's is spot on, imo.
My Electric prices has halved after installing my Heat pump (Valiant just like yours)! Even after the price increases!! I was worried about the running costs but from what i have calculated (and currently its -9•C outside) it is working brilliantly. Its costing me approx around 200KWh per month in December! Also im actually not runnibg it 24/7 either as Im on dual tariff and its @24pence per KWh.All I need to do now is to invest in Solar panels as Im south facing! This video has confirmed my decision to go for a heat pump instead of gas! Great video.
Very clear and honest analysis, most informative. Will be most interested to hear how you have got on since
Nice update. Looking forward to hearing about the "other" upgrade
I'd imagine that you'd need to add another 10kWh battery to keep the running costs low.
As always a well put together explaination in laymans terms. These heat pumps are clearly the way forward and like you said if you can afford to do it then do it. Just put up with that old kitchen for a few more years 😁.
Thanks for the update - will be interested in your next update.
Thank you for your experience on this trip. I am researching to see if it will make sense for me and wife to switch to a heat pump system.
As always a good watch and as impartial as you can be! Keep up the good work.
Absolutely love you branching out to other electrical items and especially home items. Any chance you could do home automation items like thermostats or radiator valve controllers. Anyway love all content
As always an informative video and good seeing your system in real life scenario.
Great video , brillant low key advice , will now try and justify and install . A Yorkhireman at his best .
Very clear analysis. However temperatures were still relatively mild during the test period, once it gets very cold I think the cost will be a lot higher than gas.
Good review, thanks for the data and common sense approach.
Thanks for doing a video with the crucial numbers info
Great down to earth explanation and video. I was wondering how the solution compares to a mini-split system for heating?
Thank you for this, its exactly what I needed to know.
Great video, nice and balanced as always. Thanks.
Good on you for reducing your gas consumption. Spot checking the north west England grid gas is currently 8% of the electricity for your heat pump with the rest being wind and nuclear so there's a multiplying effect with the switch to electric heating.
I found it very informative. From what you describe there is an instant return on investment which I your case (assuming a total outlay of £16500 for the heat pump + solar array and battery versus saving of £550 p.a.) would be 3.4% p.a. Also, IMHO their is no loss of capital and indeed the investment could see improvement in capital growth (when included in house value) as potential house buyers might recognise that the heating system is future proofed. Notwithstanding capital growth, 3.4 % versus some of my other yearly financial provisions for my continued happy retirement is very competitive and I am encouraged to investigate further into changing our system. Thank you.
Great video. We have the 7kw version of your HP. And for November have got cop of 6.6 for heating and 4.0 for dhw . It has been warm and we're in bristol. We have a little ufh and rads that help. But dhw cop has been helped by only heating to 47 degrees which is plenty for us. And running it in the warmer afternoon. (This does include weekly legionella) if your on time of day tariff that might not make sense. I have independant electrical measuring and I find the vailant control under reports by about 60 watts. And also does not include the two circulation pumps that consume about 15w each..so in the warmer months the power draw is 500w. Vs 1500w in the colder times. So the error is worse in the shoulder months. I would say keep tuning and you could get even more from it. As ours was left by the engineer I have improved cop from 4.5 and 3. Most engineers will priotise heat out put over efficency.
Can you explain the weekly legionella? Do you mean it does a weekly high heat cycle to kill it? Because that’s one of my frustrations with our oil boiler; the water is always too hot for skin, so has to be cooled. It seems like such a waste of energy.
@@therealjetlag We have arotherm HP which can theoretically provide 70degree water . i have it timed to take the cylinder up to 47 degrees each day. then once a week i have a programmed legonella cycle that brings the tank up to about 65 degrees, which should kill off the bugs. as i have kids i had a thermostatic mixing valve fitted on the outlet of the tank, this means the max temp coming out of the taps is 45 degrees regardless of the day of the week! not an expensive addition. Taking the tank up to 65 uses quite a bit of energy, the hp is less efficient at these temprature and the hotter cylinder loses more heat through the insulation so you don't want it this hot more than you need. but once a week seems quite standard. research suggest the risk is far more to do with commercial building and domestic risk is really low.
@@joewentworth7856 Thank you! And yes, I agree that the risk on a domestic supply that is emptied regularly (showers, washing up, etc) seems really low.
Great to see you are enjoying your ASHP, I have had mine for 9 Months and I am finding the same result as you, we keep nice and warm with it running at 19 degrees celcius and a drop to 17 overnight. We are keeping lovely and warm and over the recent cold days later in November, we have been using 22 to 29 kWh while ambient temps are between 6 and 9. We have been using the ASHP to do hot water as well as heating, and we used 209kWh for the same dates and we have a 5 bed home!
How does it cope with a week or more of minus C temperatures ?
@@jimmyjohnstone5878 I have actually turned my temps down to 18C and still found my home very warm. We are generally at home all day, so I have opted to use the 24 hour on option. With -6C overnight temps and not getting above zero for most of the past 2 weeks, it worked amazingly, but obviously heat demand was higher and this pushed up the electricity use. Also my walls insualtion has broken down and is awaiting removal and replacement in January.
Inside of exterior wall is 3c to 4c less then room temp. Measured by resting one of my thermometers against the wall and comparing to another moving it a meter from the wall at same height.
I also have a detatched 5 bed home and roof insulation was increased to 270mm last year.
So average temps for day of 7c used about 20kWh for Central heating and hot water.
5-6c was 25-30kWH
2-3c was 31-40kWH
1 or less (over 7 days) was 42 to 55kWh
I have a Midea ASHP and have been taking readings from their app on a daily basis. These are average temps and many have been -6c overnight and keeping at zero or maybe 2 to 3 daytime since start of December.
Hope that helps
@@Jaw0lf
If I read your analysis correctly, when the temperature drops right down it costs up to 55kwh/day. That could be over £500 a month in the winter!
@@Mark.D.H. I did see those figures when it was -7C but then we have a lack of insulation in our walls. Resting a thermometer against an outside wall, it measured 4 degrees less than when moved 60cm away at the same height within the room.
I am in process of trying to get insulation fixed! Also, the price you reached doesn't take account of cheaper energy at night as well as the temperatures do not often stay below freezing for many weeks.
17c or 19??? My lounge temp dropped to 19.1c during the recent freeze, this temp IS COLD for us.
I'm having air heat pump fitted this Friday. I have 8 solar panels and will be definitely thinking of the battery Inna near future
I'll also be making video about my journey with it.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts
👍for First4solar great job thank you guys
Thanks. Nice comparison. We’re still at the increasing insulation stage and upgrading a few radiators before hopefully going down heat pump route at some point. Thanks for sharing your solar install info, but could you share who you chose for the heat pump……. Geographically we’re not too far from you.
INTRESTING food for thought . meany thanks well put together video
Jeez, Andy...
Great video...
Interesting numbers...
I've just had 5.8kWp of PV, a Gen 1 GivEnergy 5.0HYB inverter + 2 x 8.2kW batteries installed and, over the last 2 months, I've seen that my average 04:30 to 00:30 home load uses approx 60% (6kW) of the (max achievable 10kW) overnight battery charge - which would then leave me with only around 4kW available to power an ASHP on cheaper tariff electricity (at least over the, likely, non-PV winter months).
Since that installation, I've then had a Home Assessment and a £7.5k quote (after BUS) from Octopus for a Daikin 9kW ASHP with 8 radiators needing to be swapped...
Based on your numbers, your average daily ASHP consumption over these 62 days has been 6kW - does that sound about right from your data?
I just can't do the 'man-maths' to decide whether or not I should go ahead with the ASHP - at one point, I thought I'd be saving around £1k a year by not having a gas boiler (it's the only gas 'appliance' we have - which is why I really want to get rid of it) but, having seen your 'actual data' I'm all flippin' confused again...!
I just wish I had some way of calculating a definitive answer to what annual saving I would see so I could make my bloody mind up...!! 🥴
this is the best video I have seen on the subject.
I have one and love it,no regrets at all .
Cracking video.
Think I’m right in that you can only get the government grant if there are no outstanding suggestions on your EPC. That can be a big one for people.
Our price is almost identical to your for a very similar install. We have chosen The Heating People in Widnes. So far they have been superb but we are yet to have our heat pump fully installed. I’ll keep you posted on how we get on with it all.
White Board videos are my favourite videos. I really struggled getting a heat pump recently, and ended up with a normal boiler replacement. I'm struggling again now with battery storage. Lets not forget that you don't have to pay standing charge for gas anymore
Hi. Adam
Please can you tell me when did the standing charge for gas taken off. Thank you.
@@johnbrewer9833 sorry, I need to clarify. What I mean is that EVM won’t have standing charge once he’s fully off gas because of his fully electric house.
Good video. Always helpful to see real world data. You could also look at approximate carbon dioxide emissions for gas heating vs electric heat pump. Over the year the difference will be significant and I believe there is a great deal of value in that which helps justify the installation cost. Our long love affair with cheap plentiful gas made us all completely ignorant to our consumption of energy. Smart meters and electrification, not to mention the energy price crisis is bringing about awareness. Energy use isn’t an abstract concept anymore, it’s part of daily life.
Carbon dioxide emissions is a reason to spend tens of thousands on heat pumps? Carbon dioxide is 0.04% of the atmosphere of which 98% is natural !!!! Hardly a killer gas that's going to destroy the world. Stop watching the BBC.
good video. Well explained!
Very useful and it will be interesting to see what a full year works out to. At the moment there is an understandable focus on the price of keeping warm and the real challenges for many people. However it is worth keeping in mind that your monthly running costs are less than my Sky subscription and much less than my mobile (and broadband) bill! In my case I have moved into a new, very well insulated house but with a gas boiler. We have fitted solar and ordered a Tesla PowerWall so a decision for us is do we throw away a perfectly functioning boiler early to start getting the benefit.
Thanks, very interesting video 👍🏻
Thanks, keep up the great content 👍
Many thanks!
Thanks EVM, nice review.
I'm in the states and had oil heating. The oil prices just went up to $5.15 a gallon so I installed a mini split. I'm still gathering data but I expect this to have a payback within a couple of years.
Nova Scotia here - at current oil prices and if we use the same amount as last year it will cost $4500 for the winter. Applied for a heat pump which will hopefully get installed next month.
@@Caspar0s Hi Caspar0s, we are not into the real cold here in the Catskill Mountains of NY yet but we have had a couple of -10°C days and the mini has performed amazingly. I'm tracking power vs temp and the savings is substantial. Fingers crossed when the January weather hits but so far so good.
well done very honest thanks.
Thanks for update, very interesting
Do you leave the HP running all the time, day and night? Also do you turn off radiators in rooms not using or heat whole house?
Do you use TRVs on radiators or just a central thermostat?
Thanks EVM! Was waiting for this one 😉
Great video, very interesting. Your comment about the negative comments were spot on. I really don't get why so many people get so cross about EV's, renewables, heat pumps etc. They're better on basically ever metric you look at apart from price at the moment and that will change with time especially as the cost of gas and associated items have their prices adjusted to reflect the damage they inflict on the environment.
I always find the best way of challenging the anti's is to get them to explain why it's better to send billions to despicable Middle Eastern regimes, Russia etc rather than invest it into renewables, storage etc in this country.
As usual spot on the money calculations. Perhaps an update is needed now?
Hi, fascinating and informative video. As someone who lives in a 2 bed flat in london, currently there is no heat pump solution, so last year I had to replace 20 year old boiler with new one - which wasn't cheap. I hope that at some point in future there is a solution for me. It's great to know that it works for you.
The best solution for urban areas, particularly flats, is district heating.
@@gchecosse Says who? Where's the evidence and what form of district heating do you mean?
I've heard about a pilot scheme in New York that works by attaching it to your window, can work with apartments/flats and has low noise.
For flats the tepo zeb might fit nicely to do the heating and a sun amp to do the hot water but if you have hot water cylinder the sun amp won’t be 100% necessary but be idea if cash was no problem
Im sticking to my baxi bermuda back boiler that was installed 30 years ago...in that time ive went through TWO pumps,ONE controller and a thermocoupling.
Thats it!
Thirty Years!large
2 bed victorian tennement,bill average at 22⁰C
£700 annual...
Thanks for the great video and all the hard work collecting and analysis of the data but........ at my time of life (70's) I couldn't justify the expense. In my defence I do have an EV and solar panels, so if I was younger I would definitely have an heat pump
I am 62 and think exactly the same. I will probably down side before it anywhere near pays for itself in savings.
Congratulations for your energy mix! let's not forget the health and environmental benefits of HP technology that does not generate noxes (NOx, CO2, etc.) as is the case with natural gas heating installations
Thanks for another great vid. You make the valid point early on that not everyone can afford an ASHP or the solar battery set up you have. Near the end though you share the fact that you and your wife made a choice to spend your money on this and not a new kitchen. It's really important for us all to understand that making a contribution to getting to net zero and beyond IS about making choices with that in mind. How many couples are out there prioritising 'a new kitchen' or other big ticket spend over a more environmentally savvy choice ...... Plenty I imagine!
I have an very Eco house, extremely well insulated, Solar PV and Thermal, House battery, had EV since 2015, haven't flown for many years, grow our own veg etc. etc. My mates, with similar demographic = Jack sheete ... very disappointing. They all seem to think that the problem doesn't apply to them. "No raindrop thought it created the flood" ...
@@ecok And you've made next to zero contribution to climate change. I'm with your mates and the vast majority of country. Just sold our EV. Nissan leaf. Lovely car but monthly payments ridiculous. Now running a Hyundai i10 2008.
@@PabloGarcia-hc8xq No kids then Pablo? Much harder to take/justify a 'bollocks to the planet' stance if you have children.
@@xxwookey Personally I dont buy the doomsday scenario in the next 100 years. I have every faith mankind will find solutions. A steady and practical transition to renewable energy seems the sensible course. Remember that cold kills around 20 times more than heat. It has been a very bad year for climate catastrophists all round. Coral is growing on the Great Barrier Reef with a vengeance, just a few years after journalists and their ‘experts’ warned it was likely to disappear. According to the latest satellite data, the global temperature hasn’t moved for over eight years. A little extra carbon dioxide in the atmosphere has led to significant ‘greening’ of the planet, a process that over the last 30 years has undoubtedly reduced world hunger and famine.
@@xxwookey if pablo doesn’t have kids, they’ve probably made a much larger contribution to reducing carbon output than any change you or I may make during our lives. You don’t need offspring to think beyond the end of your own life.
Thanks for the update, very interesting. Please can you tell me how many kw your new home battery is? I like the idea of using a battery with the off peak rate as that gives the best savings. Also wondered how many kw was heating and how much hot water for the heat pump? I do think installation prices for heat pumps is inflated at the moment, it really shouldn't cost that much but I guess that will come down in the next few years Thanks
Excellent video EVM. Clearly you have gone into this in comprehensive detail. Realistically to change out a Gas Boiler to a Heat Pump, given basic parameters to make it work effectively and efficiently is there a one size fits all approach and option or does every installation need to be bespoke. I am in a new house one of the 7% and have been advised it is straight forward to change from a gas boiler to a heat pump because that’s how it’s been designed. However the issue is “One in six homes in England (15%) and a fifth of homes in Wales (23%) were built before 1900, according to the latest Valuation Office Agency data. Homes in England and Wales were most commonly built between 1930 and 1982 (46% in England and 39% in Wales). In England, 7% were built in 2012 or later, and in Wales, 5%” , ONS.
Insulation is just as important for any heat system. The housing stock needs upgrading regardless.
My house was built in 1890 and I'm about to install a 10kW Vaillaint HP. It leaks like a sieve so it's going to be an interesting journey
@@mapryan invest in an infrared camera. You can get a plugin module for your smartphone (Apple or Android) from Flir for a reasonable cost. This will help you find the cold spots in the house so you can fix them. You can also rent IR cameras.
Given you are in a new house I find it galling that the house builder was allowed to still fit a gas boiler. Way too much government inertia on forcing builders to do what we need for the future. Building a house, knowing it will have to be upgraded, is unforgivable. But no one in that chain cares, except for profit.
@@ecok The houses are 8 years old and a test case for ecosystems, 34 of them, with the smaller houses having heat pumps from day one. My house has the Kingspan cylinder system in the airing cupboard which is very efficient, driven by a small condenser boiler in the kitchen, deliberately positioned to be replaced easily by a heat pump in the future. Interestingly the latest version of my house has a condenser boiler only in the airing cupboard, so you are correct, I was told my system was expensive for the size of my house, 3 bedroom detached, but future proofed.
Great analysis...we're at £50 per month to fuel our 4 bed detached house (nov22) with the temperature at a constant 22 degrees and water at 55. Solar, battery and HP are superb when combined with off peak energy rates. The payback will accelerate when we go EV next month.
And how much is your EV going to cost? Gen 1 Leafs are min £8000. How many years before you actually achieve payback on that? Petrol prices dropping fast so maybe better to buy a cheap car for a £1300. EVs will not last the distance. The world has insufficient reserves of minerals such as lithium and cobalt to continually replace all the batteries needed for Net Zero every decade, a report for the Finnish Government has said a few weeks ago.
Don’t be so stupid, you are a capitalist environmentalist. Can you not see the irony of what you are doing.
Many people just do not have any capital to make payback an option. Many would probably need a payday loan at 100%. This eco fantasising and virtue signalling all seems very much a rich man's game at the moment. i.e. 4 Bedroom detached house! November was a mild month so not a great indication and this idea of tearing out viable equipment to replace it to save the planet is just not an option. We are in a war sanctions and retaliation situation at the moment so Gas prices will come down and the present situation is hardly typical. Electricity supplies have been very flaky and coal stations have been fired up so imagine what it would have been like if everyone was an eco warrior and running an EV and Heat Pump in these still conditions and with little sun in winter. My gas fire is a valuable backup if the electricity does fail which nearly happened. Probably we do need sustainable systems but they are just not here yet for most of us and this current late in the day panicked intimidating and shaming rush for non existent capital investment, in what are times of great austerity and shortages, will do no good.
Interesting! It was your journey that inspired me to fit a battery system to compliment our solar. However rather than heat pumps we took a different direction - Herschel infra red. We did this for two reasons: Flexibility and cost. Flexibility was just how we live (a home business so rooms need to be at different temperatures at different times of the day)- Cost of fitting but also cost of maintenance. Our local Home Energy provider are Daikin people and their service plan was in the £280.00 - £350.00 per year (required for the warranty) compared with Herschel £0.00
We haven't ruled out a heat pump at sometime in the future but echoing other comments on your comments I don't think it will be Daikin who are getting a reputation for poor customer care! With 2x 9.5KWh GivEnergy batteries our next upgrade will be a second inverter to allow us to make better use of the Herschels and use off-peak 'Go' for hot water. You pays your money.....
Mad, don't go buying more batteries (with 8-10 year lifetimes) to power more 1.0x heat lamps, keep the same size battery and use the energy in the heat pump and turn that 10kWh of stored energy into 40kwh of heat. Daikin basic warranty is £160/yr, though I think they'd have trouble invalidating your warranty if you've had it serviced by a qualified individual.
@@edc1569 The beauty of heat pump physics is clear - unfortunately so is the upfront cost! I chose GivEnergy batteries because they use LIP (Lithium, iron, phosphate) technology (no manganese or cobolt) - so (they) are heavier, slightly larger but can charge / discharge across their full range. LIP is MUCH less subject to segregation - GE warranty them for 10 years and they should last, perhaps, 20.
Great review 👍
I'll keep following the progress after a cold winter. We've had an exceptionally warm November and with a gas boiler my consumption is on a different planet lower than yours.
No gas use in September at all, nor the first two weeks of November. Only about £40 so far. Water heated via immersion on E7 which is 11p at the mo. Given inefficiencies of gas, losses and distribution to the tank, that's likely cheaper than the 10p gas slightly per kWh price.
Getting rid of the standing charge is a good point though and my concern is that the electricity prices won't come down much ever.
We've just bought a Tesla, I figure I'll charge that overnight and just sit on it during the daytime, or stick some duct pipes into it and pump the warm air from that!
Out of interest, did you consider inverter AC system at all? That way you'd get the benefit of reversing the heat pump in summer as AC and warm air heating in winter?
A very balanced video!
What was the reason to think of getting rid of gas by the way? Is that a safety-related concern? I also like to keep a clean/simple house as well. But again I feel like it would be better to keep two energy sources rather than depending on one. Maybe it makes sense in your case, as you have installed solar energy too. It would be nice to see another comparison video including the yearly maintenance costs of both the heat pump system and the solar panels.
Learning plumbing would be a better investment than spending thousands of pounds on university degrees. Because the initial installation cost and finding plumbers to service yearly will become an inevitable cost. On a day that the UK government mandate installing heat pumps, at least you can buy the unit ( from China maybe 😂 ), work on radiator and pipe size design and install the units to save some money. Also, you can service it yourself yearly to save some money.
The heat pump is surely a great invention. Even in all other cases, people should think more to adopt this concept of harnessing unused energy than generating it from zero. The only barrier is the initial investment. The same applies to electric cars as well. People don't have the confidence to buy a used electric car with old batteries but can't afford a new one. Therefore, it is practical for them to buy an old diesel car expecting to put in some good amount of mileage before they buy the next car.
The efficency of ufh give a greater win with heatpump than boiler. As the lower temp water has a bigger effect on the efficiency. For those considering it.
Hi pal m.. I’m feeling the heat for a heat pump now..
What heating system do you have and what square meter is it trying to warm up? Thanks
Thanks for the update. What power is your ASHP? It will be useful to see how you go on over winter wrt COP.
I've had to quotes so far 14kW and 17kW for a reasonably well insulated 200 m2 house. IMHO about twice what is needed but the installers state they have to comply with the MCS scheme in order to get the £5k grant.Total heat demand has been deduced as 30k kWh/yr.
It seems that ASHP are being over specified because of the MCS scheme just like gas boilers are currently.
There is a YTer Michael de Podesta who works thru the calcs based on annual gas usage worth a watch.
Great informative video. Always good to get real world stats. Totally agree that you have to want these technologies and look at the long term cost. It's highly unlikely energy prices will ever go back down to what they were last year. I did put a 25% deposit down on a home storage battery with First4Solar back in February but unfortunately they haven't installed it. So after many months I had to cancel. Still waiting for a refund 2 months later!
Hmmm. That worries me as I paid the deposit in August, was told installation in 2-3 months then got a message saying "mid-January 2023".
@@TonyOrc at least you got a message. I had to chase them!
Not heard good things about them unfortunately
My friend used Zanussi solar and had problems with them i.e didnt even wire the battery up right so it wasn't even charging the batteries up so wouldn't recommend that company
You are not on your own with First4Solar. Aftrer waiting 24 weeks with no sign of any install promise, I too cancelled, although I did get my deposit back after complaing to HIES. It appears to me that they are advertising and collecting deposits for orders that they cannot fulfill.
Brilliant information & how long should on average should your heat pump last for before it might need changing? Thanks
We calculated the btu required for each room when we replaced our system, after 6 years no room is too hot or cold , no cold spots in the house , we al so have a gas job and hear the water, our avg useage per year is 9500kwh so well worth working out Wha t btu you need.
Very helpful.
Thanks Andy, very interesting. Have had a heat pump for nearly 5 years now, in a house that is very old, with thick stone walls, so insulation is poor. My install costs were about the same as yours, though running costs are quite a bit higher. The solar makes a bigger difference on your running costs than I would have guessed. All I need now is the money for a solar install!
You might be better going for a battery instal - you'd be benefiting from moving the cheap electricity from night-time to all through the day.
Maybe better would be some insulation and airtightness? EWI on a stone house makes a _really_ efficient building with loads of thermal mass, large decrement delay. 80% reduction is heating load is typical (depending how bad your windows are - those might need upgrading too in due course.)
I've got an old house with thick stone walls too with an ASHP. Having had it for 12 months I think our electricity bill is about 50% cost over Dec-Feb so seems really expensive in the winter, but very cheap in summer. For us it about balances out over the year to gas. And we don't have the gas standing charge as an added bonus. Thick walls are good insulators as long as they are dry!
The heat geeks have done a good job designing the system. Look forward to see the update after Christmas
The problem in the uk is the cost of fixing solar panels and heat pumps and also standing charges where even if you don’t use anything you still pay. In my moms house in Poland she had 28 solar panels fitted and instead of radiators she has IR panels (infra red panels) which are a type of plastic which heats up when electricity passes through it. The total cost of fitting the solar and IR panels was about £10k. She just received her 6 month electricity bill and it was £30. Throw in the fact there’s no council tax there and you start to see the difference.
Another great video 👍
Quick question, are you running the heat pump from your batteries and how much kw are you typically using per day
Thanks
It does sound as if it really helps to shift grid draw to off peak via solar and batteries in order to make the numbers work alongside the pressing need to change the boiler anyway. Particularly given the price cap is artificially depressing electricity prices atm and this won’t last for much longer bringing the gas and electricity prices closer. Sadly I changed my boiler a couple of years ago so an ASHP May not be a realistic option until the next house either.
What change have you made to your battery storage
What upgrade to your battery system have you had? We are contemplating a ASHP and also have a givenergy system with solar.
Thanks for another interesting video. Interested to know what you’ve done re. Battery and inverter to offset the daytime electricity. Interested as about to get solar and don’t want too small a setup to not be able to do this - battery/inverter sizes.
Great video thanks for the update, we are looking to move to a heat pump system as well, my only observations after watching many videos is remember if your moving from a combi boiler to a heat pump system that includes the water your are likely also looking at installing an immersion tank and that means you need space for the whole system, not a downer just something to think about.
I’ve also heard that the maintenance is likely to be slightly higher which may impact your overall savings, again not against good maintenance just something to be aware of, having to fix a broken heat pump is likely more costly than just maintaining it regularly. Also Gas costs will continue to increase, and combine your system with the likes of a ripple investment would mean even lower electrical costs, so plenty of opportunity for greater savings moving forward.
You didn’t even mention the fact that it has likely increased the value of your property, something that doesn’t pay for itself straight away but not a bad thing ;)
We are getting a heatpump next year (long waiting time). Gas in the Netherlands is much MUCH more expensive than gas, above that I can't produce gas (I can but not for heating lol) but I do produce electricity (23 panels) so I will earn the cost back much faster.
Have you found the givenergy battery discharge rate is sufficient to power your heatpump?
A lot of comments here, didn't get through them all so somebody else might have said this.
But considering your old boiler needed replacing (can't not have heating in a house) the price of a new boiler & fitting should be subtracted from the cost of the HP; for those people who insist on calculating return on investment.
Just out of interest do you have a wet underfloor system connected to the heat pump?
A slightly contrary view, although I recognise the desirability of the HP. For us, the complications and costs of an HP install simply made going for one impractical. So instead we installed a Viessmann 050-W combi boiler which has an efficiency rating of up to 97% which is combined with a Nest thermostat connected via the Opentherm protocol.
Balancing radiators, turning on eco modes for heating and dhw and dialling down the heat using the Nest scheduling means the boiler is not asked to do as much. Burns are modulated by the Nest over Opentherm so are more efficient.
This cost £3k. The daily charge for gas is still there of course as is the cost of gas - 3x higher than a year ago. But, installing the HP would have meant a major investment into what is *not* a ‘forever’ home. So the Viessmann simply made more sense. Gas consumption has dropped by around 50% by comparison with the old boiler.
This is a bit sad as in an ideal world we would have gone for an HP. But this is not a ‘forever’ home and the HP was simply too expensive and presented too much hassle to house and install. I suspect I am not alone…
Really enjoyed this video and I'm pleased to hear that your ASHP is living up to expectations.
I liked your honest and fair comparison of gas v electricity for heating. There are a couple of questions I'd like to ask though.
You didn't include the cost of having your old gas boiler serviced annually in your comparison. All gas boilers are supposed to be serviced annually, so does your ASHP also need to be serviced annually? If it does, how would the cost of servicing compare to the old gas boiler?
Now you've got the ASHP, are you intending to use it year round to provide hot water, or will you continue to use solar power in the summer months to heat water via your immersion heater?
Heat pump powered by solar is way more efficient than immersion heater.
@@ElectricVehicleMan for the very reason you stated in your excellent and very helpful presentation: Solar powered heat pump moves the heat to the hot water at around 310% efficiency whereas the same amount of heat obtained from a solar powered immersion heater can never have an efficiency better than 100%.
My home is heated and cooled by a Lennox Heat Pump. I also have 65 Solar Panels on the roof for the past 14 years. The solar panels are paid off 10 years ago. I live in Huntington NY (Long Island). The thermostat is set to heat at 74 Fahrenheit and cool when the house gets to 78 Fahrenheit. My cost of Electric power from May 1 2022 to May 1 2023 came to $180. No Oil or gas bill. Do heat pumps work? WOW! Yes they do. My Next door neighbor with essentially the same house and oil heat spends $2,100 on oil for heat and hot water plus another $2,400 for Electric. They just have had solar panels installed after i showed them my bills. That will get rid of the electric costs but she still has the oil to pay for.
I use a 16kw ASHP(A2W) to heat my home and hot water for over 4 or 5 years, I live in country side. These machines are definitely more efficient than a gas/coal boiler and they run cheaper but the fact is, once you run out of warranty time and if they break down (which they definitely will), they take away "atleast" 1 year of savings over a fossil fuel lol. They are expensive machines. With a gas boiler or combi, the most expensive part inside the machine would not exceed 70€+labor+logistic, these machines are much simpler machines compared to a heat pump. If you are living in a town/city that has natural gas line, that's the best option to go without any discussion economy wise (if you are some greenpeace person, that's another case). If you are living somewhere country side, your most comfotable and efficient option is the heat pumps.
Kudo's for getting rid of gas. The thing with investing money to save money in the long run means you can get a better kitchen later 😉
I would make the members only streams open to the public but only members can chat.
Awesome. Better than I expected. We’re considering air to air strongly down to me working from home and air con becoming a necessity during the warmer months and the portable air conditioner not being enough. However the efficiency of hot water is also eye opening.. I think I’d love a heat pump that can do air to air and air to water at the same time. Is that a thing yet? 🤔
Interesting....
We are considering air to air. Too much remedial work to our old gas system for a wet ashp. We are sticking with immersion heater for hot water for the next year but then swapping the cylinder to one of the all in one air source heat pump cylinders, like the Dimplex Edel Hot Water Cylinder.
Heat pumps can also do cold water with reversing valves. You have to plumb in hydronic fan coils separate from the radiators or infloor heating to blow cool air and dehumidification but yes many units offer this capability. German systems like the Stiebel Eltron, Wolf, System M from Dimplex all offer this.
@@aorange999 now this is something I'd like to see a video on 👌
Yes. Samsung and Daikin offer this. Very clever if you can tolerate the disruption.
Thanks EVM. Do you have your ASHP running all the time to provide background heating? The engineers advised us to do that with our heat pump but after 2 days of being hot at night and looking at the electricity usage we switched to just having it on in the evenings. Typical winter usage is 20-30kW/day, about 2kW in the summer for hot water only. From 10/9-20/11 (so slightly longer period than you) we used 176kW.
Our heat pump was installed in January this year after our oil tank failed and the new regulations for oil tank distance from boundaries and buildings severely limited where the new tank could be (basically in the front garden!). Installation costs were £16k for a twin 9kW LG system, but we are receiving most of that back over 7 years with the RHI grant. My calculations are that (if we were having to buy all the electricity) it’d be slightly cheaper to run than the oil boiler, except with our solar panels and battery we’ll be self-sufficient for about 7 months a year so it should save us each year.
The temp is set and left. Night temp is 2-3c lower.
Weather compensation is very good on this.
Hi, I have asked you before in the comments, do you run your heating through the night in this cold weather or do you turn it off before you go to bed ? If so what time does it have to come on to get your house warm again to 20 degree C . Thanks
Great video. Did it cost to have the gas meter removed?
What is the start up draw of the heat pump? What is the average draw? Im thinking of an off grid situation, using a gennie to start the heat pump, and run from battery and solar where possible.
Does the heat pump freeze over during the winter and stop working? If not, how does it continue to work?
How much did it cost you to replace radiators to have larger surfaces due to the lower temp, to suit the heat pump?
What is the annual servicing cost for the £13.5K heat pump, how long is its design life, and is there theft insurance for it given that it is outside?
How hot is your hot water, for showers etc? The hotter it is, the less cold water you mix with it when you use it.
How much does your solar panel electricity production helps out with the electricity cost of the heat pump?
We're in the pricess of doing the same. Heat pump & solar & battery storage. Expensive? Yes but we are blessed and can afford it. We're doing it for the planet. Thank you!
Well unless you can get the USA, China, India, Africa, South America, Eastern Europe and most of the far East to join in then you are not saving anything.
@@RushfanUK that's why there's COP, the Inflation Reduction Act, European Green Deal and so on. The train is leaving the station whether you get on it or not.
Fantastic piece, thank you. I am looking into all this from a similar prospective, but we have a big problem in this house, plastic plumbing (Hep2O). Heat Geeks say it's a heat pump non starter, because of the restriction of flow through every connection, joint, bend etc.. So do I renew the whole heating system in copper? A lot of disruption and mess! Looking at a Tepeo ZEB boiler maybe.
Anyway, once again, a really big thank you.
You can use wider plastic, it’s not the material it’s the width.
@@ElectricVehicleMan Yer, I'm also considering that, but it will be the same amount of disruption, so my thinking is change to copper. It's a new build, so all the pipework is hidden and, being plastic, is impossible to detect. What's worse, is the idiot that installed the system hasn't "cabled" the house (as you should with plastic) but fitted endless bends so the flow is even worse than it needed to be. The houses are 13 years old and 2 neighbours have had big chunks of their installation changed out to copper because of blockages. No amount of pressure cleaning cleared the problems. Just like you, I'm doing lots of thinking, pros and cons etc. My ultimate goal, like you, is to get the gas meter removed.. One thing I'm looking at, maybe you can add some light. My electricity main fuse is 60A, this seems low to me. EV charger, HP or ZEB, smart water tank, battery storage charging etc, will 100A be enough or do I need to consider 3 phase? (don't even know if that's available to me).
Great stuff Andy, it's real help.
@@steveellis1932 I have 100A fuse, single phase, and charge 2x PowerWall and 2x EV overnight, and at times they all come on together. If you have power showers and so on that would make things worse. That said, there are devices that will "cut" power to e.g. EV charger if the rest of house approaches the 100A limit, so if 3P expensive could consider that instead. I think there are grants available for 3-Phase if your household has anyone over 60
Great no-nonsense overview and man maths, good work!
Thanks EVM, easy to understand content and to the point. Nothing else needed. 1 point I would like to ask, when I was looking at electric hot water heating systems (I was looking if I could use excess solar to pre-heat the water going into the gas boiler so that it didn't have to increase the water temp as much = cheaper to run) I found that you can now get electric combi boilers. Any chance a video and info on them ?
We have gone to wood, heat logs purchased in the summer should do 85% of our heating at a cost of £230 for the year. Sad really that it's so much cheaper. 😞
Excellent overview. The results were in line with what I expected from the relatives efficiencies of the two systems. Will you be giving an update in your new battery solution?
Yes