The issue is when you go to Supermarkets in the UK they see it as a way of making money from charging and not getting you into the shop. 75-85p/kWh. Same with some chain hotels like premier inn, ripping off the punters at 85p. For me, destination chargers is a hotel that allows you to plug in at 25p/kWh
@@alibro7512 The price of rapid chargers needs reviewing. Ive seen 90p a kwh and if you cant charge at home that really makes it MORE expensive than a petrol car especially if its something like a nissan ariya thats a 87kwh battery thats £70 quid to fill for 280 miles range but if you put £70 quid of diesel into a nissan qashqai youd get 450 miles range.
@@cephasmakuzva Good point that is why people stick to a combustion car.They don't want to be ripped off which is happening.I be changing to an EV this year it be on the motability scheme.We have a home charger otherwise i would have never done it.
When Tesco did it for free I only ever shopped there. Now I barely go... Tbf, Tesco is still cheap-ish to charge in - 44p/kWh, which is probably only just covering their costs.
Couldn't agree more, as a 10+ year EV driver I made the installation of 2 x 22kW destination chargers a priority when I recently purchased a holiday cottage business in Gower, South Wales. The cars are going to be parked overnight, so no need for an expensive rapid charger - this is where EV ownership becomes frictionless, and surpasses ICE cars for convenience.
Could have saved a fortune 7kw chargers would have been a better use of the money I regularly use holiday cottages and even a granny charger at 3kw is enough for most.
@eddiereed5025 no granny option, as car park is across a busy road. As someone who coped with granny charging my only car for 3+ years, I know that it can suffice, however it wasn't an option. Plus I would want to enable our guests to benefit from off-peak charging rates once the energy suppliers sort out proper time of use tariffs for business customers. The hope is to be able to offer charging for free in the future.
An excellent video. This is one of the biggest issues in the charging network. I live in Southsea in Portsmouth and have been running EVs for 5 years. Portsmouth is an island city mainly built by the Victorians. Off street parking is rare. 5 years ago our council started installing street lamp based 4kW chargers. It’s how us residents charge overnight. Visitors to the city use them in the day. Our council was really thinking ahead. We now have over 90 chargers in the city. For a couple of years the chargers worked well and cost about the same as home electricity. Then it all started to go wrong. The prices crept up during the energy crisis to around 50p/kWh and never went back down. Some became very unreliable. Finally, 6 months ago they all got turned off because the street lamp electricity supplier had a hissy fit and sent a legal letter to the council telling them to turn them off. Lots of emails to the council and councillors still hasn’t yielded any answers. A city like Portsmouth trying to clean up it’s air and give residents the opportunity to own EVs needs working reasonably priced destination chargers. The roads are full of parked cars which if they were EVs could plug into street chargers. I’m fortunate to have a Tesla now and there’s a local Supercharger. It’s a pain sitting waiting for a charge compared with plugging into the charger across the road from my home every couple of nights. The Superchargers are inexpensive and I tend to do my work admin while charging. But Portsmouth City Councils failure to make a success of street chargers that started so well cannot be an example of how we deal with urban charging.
I also live in Portsmouth. Copnor. From southsea where you are the local "TESLA" SUPERCHARGER is 9 miles away in Langstone and takes 20 mins each way to drive down to. I assume you use a more local rapid charger. How much is this local rapid charger thats 'inexpensive' and where (I'm yet to hear of this one so I look forward to it) and yes our council really made a mess of the lamp post ones in the city all being forced to be turned off by the electricity supplier for lamp posts. But again theres only a few lamp posts that can facilite that. Like 4 that can be used on every street. Thats not the answer. We need more slow inexpensive chargers on streets like the video said because portsmouth home charging cant happen on the terraced streets or alot more cheaper fast chargers but i know its expensive to put up rapid chargers and maintain so they have to be expensive.
@@cephasmakuzva I’m in Southsea. As a driving instructor I work all over the city so there are plenty of times when I finish a lesson in the north of the city and can hop along to Langstone then catch up with admin, calls and messages while charging. It works OK for me but that’s because of my work. I’d much rather just plug in at night. The Superchargers cost anything from 34p/kWh to 43p/kWh depending on the time of day. Can usually get around 125kWh charge speed. This is a lot less than local rapids and cheaper than the street chargers at around 50p/kWh. Let’s get a charger in every street lamp first. Most people will only charge every few days. Once that is done the next stage needs thinking about. In a densely populated city like Portsmouth every road has an electric main running along it. Taking spurs off of that can run chargers adding more capacity.
EV man you should visit Norway (Oslo). EVERY Parking spot in nearly every car park has destination charging, ice'n isn't a thing . cos every parking spot has chargers (mind you ICE is nearly gone in Norway)
In Norway, ICE cars are taxed heavily aren't they? I can only see plugin hybrids gaining ground in the UK unless our new government makes real investment in chargers
Yes but a standard ICE car 20k is charged at 100k with taxes. They only do local miles. Bergen to stavanger 69 miles they always fly. So you cannot use Norway as an example. My work has 300 destination chargers free to workers. Oh wait oil company spending billions on windfarms and infrastructure. But then they do not virtual signal.
@@EssKayTee1Renewable use is growing annually. Considerably. If you’re trying to make the point that there are still point-of-generation emissions when fossil-sourced gen is used, that’s true, but due to greater efficiency and EV still has lower emissions than petrol even on a 100% coal-fired grid.
It's amazing how useful even a 3 pin plug can be. If you're staying somewhere for a couple of nights or at work a few days a week you could get a full charge - and no install costs. If you do 200 miles a week, that's about 50kwh per week. On a 2kw domestic socket that's 25 hours, so about 3 x 8 hour charges while at work or whatever. Sometimes you only need a few more miles to get home and you can add 80-100 miles overnight. It's not ideal but it's workable in many cases.
Yep, but I can tell you I did not graze at the garage filling my previous Diesel car, it was such a noxious experience that I minimised it by brimming the car to keep from having to repeat it for as long as possible. Grazing for an EV makes so much more sense.
That is because ev's have a limited range and 30% less in winter. I sold my ev because the value was going off a cliff. I am now in a petrol car that will do 500 miles. If you do a long journey you will need to stop and rapid charge. Smaller battery ev's make sense for commuting 100 miles a day but the loss of range over time you will see at least 10% less range after 6 to 8 years (possibly moe). Batteries costs have dropped 50% but replacement battery cost are still far to high. Mercedes possibly getting out of making electric cars along with BMW.
@@RBcymru I don't lose '30% range in winter' in my EV. What EV did you 'sell' when you had already noticed 'the value had gone off a cliff'? Mercedes are not 'possibly getting out of making electric cars along with BMW' you melon.
A big problem with destination chargers is blocking either by ice, or (new?) ev drivers. I recently attended a wedding at a remote hotel. It had a row of chargers, where a saw a Polester charging on the first day. Second day it was still there dispute obviously being fully charged. My Tesla long range had 80% when I arrived so I didn’t need to charge, but the point is that on slow chargers people just seem to stay on them until they go home.
Completely agree. I've only had an EV a few months but I've already encountered this problem. Had a trip to York last month. Used the park and ride but was amazed they had about 6 fast chargers and no destination chargers. Luckily I didn't need top up as it turned out but would have been very annoyed to have to wait while it charged on the fast charger, when it could have charged over the 4 hours I spent in York otherwise.
Great video. There’s a small multi level indoor car park where I live. It houses 16 Tesla Superchargers and 130 level 2 chargers. The great thing is EVERY parking spot has a charger so ICEing is a non issue as every spot has one. I hope we will see more of these kinds of car parks.
As others have mentioned. The cost of destination charging needs to come down. I live between Bedford and Northampton and near me supermarkets, cinemas etc are charging around 45p/kwh. Thats too much. We're sleep walking into a situation where the poorer people in society who can't afford homes with off street parking, and thus do 100% on public networks, are going to be paying considerably more for their electricity than those better off in society. That can't be allowed to continue.
Agree completely, we’re away this weekend and put 40kWh in today on one of twelve destination chargers at a National Trust site we were visiting anyway. The avoided a trip to a rapid (to be fair there are a total of 30 available at three sites within 10 mins of where we’re staying so it wouldn’t a massive pain) but not having to wait around was great. I’d also second @animationcreations42’s comment about faster AC also being part of the solution. Given most larger installs of destruction chargers will almost certainly be split across phases making them 11 or even 22kW capable isn’t a huge increase in cost but significantly increases the utility for people with capable cars, certainly 11kWh onboard is becoming more common. Not important at most work places but at supermarkets and cinemas it could really help.
Another viewpoint. I live in SW France in quite a touristy, medieval village. I have just had a domestic charger installed. (With a €600 contribution from Renauld and a €700 tax break from that nice Mr. Macron)! Now, visitors to the village will normally stay for several hours, canoeing on the river, climbing, having lunch, exploring, whatever. There is an app which enables me to share my charger with any EV owner. I assume a similar thing exists in the UK as well. Not decided yet but, if I decide to partake, I get paid and another charger will be available in the village. If you think about it, and in bigger conurbations, that could be a great asset if it is widely taken up!
My office recently had 8 chargers installed. I've used them a couple of times, once to try them out and then last Thursday to top up to 100% as I was going immediately from the office to do the ~250 mile drive up to Harrogate for Everything Electric. Great idea but in practice I won't use them too often as it's 59p per kWh. Quite a lot more than my 9p at home (4 miles away). We need the price of destination charging to come down (VAT is part of that).
Good point. I think work charging is really only for those who don't have a home charger or those who are doing a long commute and so can't do the round trip without a charge stop. So I think a few chargers at most offices is probably a good idea and the sweet spot for pricing is probably 15-30p/kwh to make it attractive enough for those people but not so cheap that people who could charge at home start charging at the office thus preventing those who have a greater need.
@@LiiMuRi My electricity at home costs 9p/kWh (for 4 hours each night, so about 90-100miles). I regularly keep the car charged to about 70-80% so that the full 4 hour charge could easily achieve a 100% charge if/when I need it. I’ve then got a 250 miles range, before thinking too hard about topping up if necessary. Daytime electricity at home is currently 26.3p/kWh, so is second choice.
It was great discussing this at Everything Electric and totally agreed.11kWh AC charger is a lot cheaper than a rapid charger. Cinema 3 hour visit and more than half a battery gained. Or even a smaller one filled. Destination chargers are needed, not necessarily more rapid chargers.
Agree with this but for me there are two other important elements to the equation. First is maintenance and reliability, this weekend I have attempted to graze at a modern multi storey car park and all chargers were out of order. Then at supermarket today the charger was down. So investment in maintenance is as important. Second one is cost, public charging costs are now comparative to petrol so to graze away from home or to attract more drivers who cannot charge at home we need to make it cost attractive. But more slower chargers at these destinations is def the way forwards 😊
Exactly correct as usual Andy. My non EV owning friends and colleagues seem to think you need lots of public rapid chargers. As an experienced EV owner (since 2016) I agree with you that the slow chargers are far more important. The only times we should be using rapid chargers is for a journey longer than the car range - so for many these days that means a 300 mile journey and for me at least that happens a couple of times a year. Even when we do go away I now try to find accommodation with a destination charger - it really does make the qorld of difference if you are an ev driver. So I would prefer that hotels, B&b's etc. invest in destination chargers rather than rapid chargers. To be honest if i am staying at a hotel a rapid charger is less convenient- i will have to unplug it after 30 minutes whereas a destination charger i can leave till the nezt morning.
At a hotel people would expect to plug their ev in and leave it overnight. For the hotel etc this could be a source of conflict with guests and poor reviews.
It’s like how we tend to eat. Most is at home. Sometimes we have a snack when out and about. We don’t go for a big expensive meal every time we want to eat.
Agree fully. Just completed 4,000 + km road trip in eastern Australia. When booking, I chose accommodation offering destination charging. Many benefits - less charging time on the road, less cost (usually free) and better for the battery. Another destination option is the simple 3-pin plug. It is slower but when neither rapid chargers or destination chargers are available it can opens up amazing remote area options.
Completely agree Andy, we need the right chargers at the right location. More destination charging at places were people will typically be sat for an hour or more. Btw, it was great chatting with you at EE North 👍🏾
Right on point EVM. With progress being made on L3 rapid charge networks, L2 charging is the area most in need of improvement. Town councils need to make it easy to install troughs for charge cables to cross your sidewalk, and partner with CPOs to install street-side L2 charge points. Tax breaks are needed to encourage landlords and business owners to install L2 charge points.
Totally agree Andy, local authorities etc need to get their heads around this. One thing I would add is that the calls for a VAT reduction should (in my opinion) be only for the equivalent chargers to home devices, ie 7kW or less. This is more reasonable as it brings parity between those who can charge at home and those who can’t. I fear asking for VAT cuts on all chargers will always be dismissed as we pay full VAT on petrol.
There is a shortage of AC chargers in the UK for older EV's that were pre-CCS. Some charging points have DC CCS only, and some have AC but are only 7kwh. 22kwh chargers (and a few more of them) are a must if we are going to expand destination chargers.
Agree totally. I did a tour of Northern France last year and after the first day travel I realized I didn’t need to plan around rapid chargers- instead I found there were public car parks with slow chargers in most towns and often the parking was free so recharged overnight for the next days touring. Just need to watch for idle fees!
I went to Clacton last week. There was one single 7KW at the multi-story car park, maximum 3 hour stay. Shortly after getting there, someone trapped on my window asking how long I was going to be. I said at least 2 hours. When I came back 3 hours later, he was there, hanging about! I went to Norwich later in the day. The multi-story car park, had about 8 chargers. Non of them working 🫤 I ended up using a Tesla super charger. Worked flawlessly. 45p per kw. Nice location, and pub serving food.
Good video , shame no mention that destination chargers are ideal for PHEVs, my C5X will do 30+ miles in Electric mode and only takes 01:45 (@7.5 kw charger ) to recharge it's battery.
Did recently a short road trip to in northern Spain (from Porto). Charge wasn’t enough to return without a charge, and I didn’t care as i knew there is a supercharger close by. However, when we went to the city and parked at the harbor, i discovered they had around 15 charge points of which 2 were in use. Just standard 11 kW. Price was included in the parking fee (or no extra charge), and in the few hours we enjoyed the town the car charged up enough to comfortably drive back home and do the next few days of local driving. Yes: tons of low power chargers is what we need.
My destination charging is my home and my work with AC charging. There are some good ones in Selfridges car park in Brimingham. More of those are needed in places where you will spend more than an hour.
After a year charging my EV on public chargers only, I agree. Charging at home isn't an option for me. I occasionally use a rapid charger because it fits better in my schedule, but most of the time I just charge in the neighborhood I'm parking anyway.
I work in a business park with a (council-run) multi-storey car park. One floor has a charger for each space, and they're free to use (you still have to pay to park). That'd be perfect, except that floor is always full. Shows the idea works, but there need to be many more like it.
1000% agree with you. Just done a trip for a few days to London in my E-Niro. 100% to 39% and I had travelled 185 miles. We done the Harry Potter studio Tour and that topped me back up to 90% while we done the tour at one of their 40 destination chargers. Plenty in the battery to get me back home... So a near 400 mile road trip away from home and not had to use a single rapid charger. For a grand total of just over 20 quid including my home charge to get me back to 100%. I find it truly baffling that the major hotel chains are not rolling out massive amounts of destination chargers in their hotels that can load manage between each other. The amount of revenue they are missing out on is tremendous.
Very true every lamp post should have a charge point, little bit of profit for the council and maybe the councils can then afford to turn said mentioned lamp posts back on at night! win, win
100% agree. Most of the time the car is used in a commute, typically within the car's range. The car is then parked up for hours. Once in a while a longer journey is made which needs the car to beyond its range. We need the rapid network for that. But for 99% of journeys a destination charger is all we need.
Brilliant video. A really important concept that approaches EV charging from the opposite direction to the naysayers who hate them because they can’t drive 600 miles on a single tank.
100%! 👏 I visited Alton Towers recently, they’re currently installing some EV chargers and I hope to god they’re SLOW chargers. No one is leaving a theme park after 2 hours to unplug and move the car from a charging point. We need to address this obsession everyone has with super-fast (and usually super expensive!) charging. Yes, it’s important at a motorway services. But if your car is going to be sat still for 2 or 3 hours, there are better options.
Destination chargers are better for your battery too as they charge slower. A very valid point here. We REALLY need more destination chargers like this. At the moment there are so few it's laughable. My local town has two locations with around 10 chargers in total. But, most are out of order when you visit. Also, hotels are another area where they really need to have some chargers installed. For the moment, I can only think that hotels may need a night car administrator to move cars around when batteries become charged.
Imo, what we need more of us 22kW chargers and 22kW support in cars! When we had the Zoe, we could basically get a full charge when doing a shop at Aldi and a quick coffee in Spoons, all for 25p/kWh!
California, Colorado, Florida, Hawaii, Maryland, New Jersey, New York, Oregon, and Virginia have passed right-to-charge laws aiming to streamline the installation of residential community EV charging stations. Also, Illinois recently passed a right-to-charge law specific to new houses or multiunit buildings.
I am really fortunate to work for a company that has a clear sustainability vision and we have 10 22kWh chargers across three sites that are set at a reasonable rate (less than domestic peak rate). There has been quite a large up-take of a salary sacrifice EV scheme and many of the charge points are used daily. We also have a pool-car EV (Polestar) for supplier visits. I am also fortunate to have my own charge point at home so can charge up for a third of the cost of the work chargers!! I haven’t yet needed to use the work chargers (or a Rapid charger). I am 100% with you on the destination charger thing. Motorway services are probably one of the few places that really need rapid chargers, arguably supermarket car parks as well (people tend to be there for around an hour) but most places would benefit from lots of 7-22kWh chargers and nothing more. These are cheap, generally reliable and require much less infrastructure to be installed. Every public car park in the country should be required to install these in 10% of spaces as a minimum starting point!
Brilliantly worked out, and as you said there would be no need for most people to buy massive cars that they do not need and kills off the argument of range anxiety, which has always concerned me because of the lack of infrastructure.
I’m on my third EV over the last 6.5 years and can’t charge at home. I have adapted to all the changes until recently when it’s become untenable. The main stumbling blocks now are the price of AC chargers and the ridiculous parking restrictions at these sites. Eg. You can’t use them when the store is closed, you only have 90 minutes when the store is open, no return within 4.5 hours etc.
Totally agree. Place those on the football stadion, at the GYM when you work out. When your going to tennis, hockey, Yoga, the dog training school, or the mall, what ever. There is electricity at every street corner, shed or lamppost, use it.
Fully agree and some local councils are doing it. For example in London/Fulham almost every lamppost is converted into a destination charger. I think more than 400 of them in 2023
Lamp posts and parking lots are really the key to adoption, especially for those with smaller batteries where you can get upwards of 60% in a few hours. A ratio of around 1:6 between rapid and non rapid chargers, especially with off peak rates, feels like the primary priority for any new charging spots being installed (I could discuss only focusing on 50 - 100kw speeds over supposed 300kw+ ones, but it would take longer than an average charge to go over that lol)
Currently it’s 5am and I’m at a Tesla open to all getting a charge at 34p per kWh and it does me approximately 6 days so 6 days motoring is around £11! (About 200 miles). Any new government we get in has to look at charging particularly the 20% vat on public charging
Sadly the current opposition party has said it's sticking to the finance plans of the current lot, so that's vat on charging and a big jump in ved on EVs next year 😕
We have only EVs in our household since 2019 now and we don't ever charge at home. We ONLY use a destination charger in our village. I totally agree that destination charging is very underrated compared to rapid charging.
Absolutely!!!!! I use en-route charging maybe on 10 trips a year. But if I could charge in any carpark I arrived at at 7kW I would use it when away from home.
Local councils seem to use destination charging as a cash cow. In Scarborough they use Connected Kerb who charge 50p per kWh. But I've seen higher prices in some towns.
Much as I have thought for several years. Some kind of phone app for identification would work with a small screen QR code that could change every time it was used.
Great video, as usual, thanks. There are plenty of 7kW chargers where I live but they are rarely used. The only time I attempted it so far I gave up, frustrated with the obscurity of what was going on. For instance my nearest chargers are run by Blink, yet they don't appear on Blink's own map of their charger network! Ultimately I think what's going on is the phenomenon where you can only get serious resources for things that are profitable to do. I've been watching for 40 years now frustrated at how painfully slow the roll out of decent home insulation is. It's a great idea but somehow it doesn't happen and I think that's because there's no glamour to it (in marketing terms) and no money in it for the installers. That's with the exception of double glazing - poor value as insulation but profitable so well supported. In the world of charging that spot seems to be occupied by home chargers. They're very appealing to users so the installers can run a good business. DC chargers seem at least to have the glamour. AC, valuable as it is just isn't very well executed. Yet?
Hear hear. I would love to replace my petrol car with an EV but I live in a flat and the cost to install charging for us is unaffordable. I'd love to charge at work but again there's no charging there either. My only option is expensive rapid chargers that may put strain on the car's battery. Additionally, I don't want to sit in a windy carpark for an hour a week charging at 75p kwh. So I'll replace my petrol car with another petrol car until things improve. Thank you for tackling this subject. So many EV sites pass it off as an non-issue. Millions of homeowners in the UK live in flats or terrace houses with no off street parking/charging.
I agree, most people are travelling far for the day out, so places like hotels, museums, cinemas, National trust, zoo, theme parks, arenas, and just general popular point of interest only need to be the slower kind because your usually going to spend the day there. Most of these place have started putting one or two pint in, but they need to be a lot more.
The thing that annoys me is, 7kW chargers are installed in car parks so you can charge whilst you go and do something else, but they stupidly put an overstay penalty on them so you have to keep checking the time and rush back to disconnect.
Broad access and fair pricing seems to be the required mix. Thanks for highlighting this. I see a trip to Norway in your future. This would allow you to compare and contrast.
Destination charging is good if it’s home or work but on the rare times we’ve had to charge it’s been quite expensive to do so. We try to keep to under 150 miles on the outleg so we get back home to charge
Here in NZ, there is a big box retailer that has 22kw chargers for free! Also, a supermarket chain that has 7Kw chargers for free too! Big incentive to shop at these places.
Totally agree, lots of parking lots with destination chargers, they don't need to be more than 11 kW plenty of power to get it filled up in a few hours at work or at the hotels, for Malls a 50 kW will be sufficient, this way you can charge an hour while shopping
The trouble is Andy our head office is like your work we have 16 chargers and but 200 parking spaces and the manager’s book them every day and the engineers with electric vans can’t get on them and the same thing happens when we go to our sites which are government owned the managers there use them and are not available I agree with you
Here in Lancaster the issue is cost more than availability. Our cheapest fast charging is 32p/kWh out at the University (3 miles outside the city) and then Charge-my-street at 40p of which there are only a couple, the vast majority are BP Pulse priced 59p/kWh (7kW), if that's the cheapest way to charge your car (ie. no home charging) it's cheaper to run an ICE vehicle. It would be interesting if we got an open to all Tesla site to see how the others reacted to some real competition.
So agree. Groceries work for high speed charging ports. A grocery shop is about 1/2 hr or so. Work can be slow chargers but I would suggest partly sheltered ports for people whose cars are older like Leafs that can’t grill in the sun.
The bigger problem is the cost of charging on the road. I’ll give you a recent example : I’ve got two cars, one is a hybrid Toyota gas guzzling van which does about 25mpg and my Ioniq 5 EV which costs 9p per kWh to charge on Octopus Go. Recently had a long trip to Manchester from my home in Oxford and was toying with which car to take and decided on the EV. Having got to Manchester with 30% battery I charged the car from 30-85% at a Lidl ccs 50kw charger, which cost £30 ! So my total expenditure to get back to Oxford was around £37…outgoing journey £7 and return £30. If I had taken my gas guzzling van, it would have only cost £33. Why oh why is public charging so expensive !!
Well said. There are a few national trust places that have destination chargers which makes a lot of sense. They dont have many but its a start. I was pleased to see all 3 in use at fountains Abbey this week. There is clearly a need need for them. I asked someone at Lightwater valley before going there about ev charging and they didnt seem interested at all.
100% agree. I can get 250-300 miles range from my Kona. If there’s a destination charger, that unlocks the vast majority of the country without any need to stop more than once in the middle… I stayed in a place up in Scotland, beautiful place and they had solar/batteries etc. Had an EV charger and included 100kWh in the price, if more is needed they charge the grid rate for electric (regardless how it’s generated) which seemed entirely reasonable to me, perfect! Basically, just enough to do a full charge and then top up bits for the week that we were there. I would happily pay more to stay somewhere with destination charging that is reasonably priced.
Yes, yes, yes! When away from home I’ve been tending to stay in a Travelodge at services because they mostly have 2 Gridserve AC chargers. Perfect when staying overnight and cheaper than DC. Now, at these services, they’re upgrading them with an additional 12 - 16 DC rapid chargers but no more AC. People need to use the AC chargers more. When I’ve been staying at one of these locations, I’ve rarely seen anyone else using the AC chargers. If the networks don’t see a demand for them, they’re not going to install more.
I run a small complex of self-catering cottages and have recently installed a 7kw charger for exactly this reason. I don’t own an EV myself (yet) and I'd have installed another bay if I had enough capacity in my consumer unit. I want my guests to be able to trickle charge when parked here and not to spend their holiday looking for charging when out and about. I just pass on the unit kWh rate that I pay and have absorbed the installation cost myself.
Love your mii - have a vw eup! and it’s been used as more than a short range car on several occasions. So efficient! Would love to see a video on the car.
I'm planning to go to York this weekend. Zapmap shows the park and ride at Poppleton has super rapid chargers just next door, that's great but I want to pull up and get on a bus for the park and ride leaving the car on charge for a few hours instead of waiting to rapid charge it in 40 minutes.
I have a 22kw charge I installed at work, even though my car actually only charges at 11kw AC... future proofing.. I use it once a week usually. After one year of ownership I've used a rapid charger on 2 long trips from Southport to Southampton.
It would help if some of the companies made sure they were working and when you report them they bothered to fix them rather than leaving them out of action for 3 months plus. I have just had a holiday on the East Coast and spent most of one morning looking for a charger that was actually working.
I completely agree! Destination charging makes much more sense than Rapids. I can’t understand why tourists destinations like Devon and Cornwall don’t focus on putting large numbers of 7kW chargers in car parks near tourist hotspots. Cheaper equipment, less demand on the grid for connection and people can just graze for a charge whilst doing other things. Another thing is lamp post chargers. We have tech demonstration versions of those where I work. Only 4.6kW but imagine if all lamp posts you could park next to had one!
Probably the Most Important video you have ever made. 100% agree that Destination chargers that are affordable to use, with free parking, are the key to universal EV adoption. The Government have left it to the commercial sector, who by and large are ripping us off. Tesco and Lidl are being fair. And some independents like our local Otter Nurseries, which is still free to use!
Agree. Both destination and rapid chargers are part of the solution. I charge at home the majority of the time but changed job last year and now charge at a destination charger in a park and ride. Saves £££’s versus rapid but still not as cheap as I’d like. Driving a Nissan leaf the car is fully charged by the time I’ve finished work. Use destination chargers twice a week and makes commuting with a 40kwh battery achievable. Best thing of driving an EV is not going to petrol stations.
It's said many times on here, the price of fast charging is almost if not the same as rapid charging. But in this scenario if you're stopping for many hours it could still be beneficial to use the fast charger at the expensive rate, because you're not having to wait by the car or be in fear of an overstay. But on the other hand if you are willing to wait by the charger then go to an open to all Tesla supercharger, they are generally oneof the cheapest ways to publicly charge
Great video, I live in a small town in Mid Devon, at the end of last year we applied for a government LEVI (local ev infrastructure) grant to install some AC chargers. We were told we would hear back at the end of January. Typically nothing was heard back but in the mean time we got a quote for £55,000 for the power for four 22kW chargers. I chased up the elusive LEVI grant and was told yesterday that the government is distributing the money to the county councils and that Devon is getting just over £7,000,000 for the whole county. Based upon the cost for our small town, pop about 13000, I cannot see this being nearly enough and the EV targets being pushed back beyond 2035.
Remember most cars can only charge at 7kW (or 11) from an ac charger, even if the charger itself is rated at 22kW. You may be better off with more 7kW chargers or spending less and installing just 4.
I take this AC grazing approach whenever possible. In an older EV like mine (i3) is trying to avoid or not over-use DC rapid another reason to do this? Local authority staff and fleet charging cannot make a ‘profit’ but can add 2p or so per kW to cover admin costs, so my workplace charger is cheaper than home, so on my 1-2 days in office per week I charge. Chargers at hotels/accomodation is now an important choice factor. Bodmin Jail hotel’s free 22 kW chargers helped me do 700 miles to/from/around Cornwall last summer. Lastly grants exist for employers to put in staff chargers.
Having moved to a new build apartment in Doncaster I could no longer charge at home. Fortunately the local park and ride at the railway station which is only 2 minutes walk away have installed 7 kw chargers. The apartment under new legislation have to provide car chargers. Due to builder problems these have been delayed but are now fitted and waiting for commissioning.
I live on a small Mediterranean island which has 300 days of sunshine and no long distance driving. The amazing thing is that the local government built a huge solar farm with battery storage, installed 120 destination chargers across the island and they are all free! I have had my Model 3 Highland now for 6 months and I have never paid for any charging. I understand that this is unusual, but it has led to an explosion of EVs on the island. Make it attractive and people will switch.
I experienced a park and ride railway station, they had dozens of 7kW slow chargers, great idea, however they had an overstay fee of £12 after 12 hours, great if you’re going into the city for work, but hopeless if you’re going in one day, returning the next.
Completely agree with this. Hotels are an obvious one, lots of chain hotels now have a rapid charger, which is great, but a whole bank of AC chargers would make far more sense for residents to charge over night. Charging suitable for application is key.
I agree 100%, I did have hope for some solar pv panels on ev roofs, if I could charge at even 3-5KW a day, I wouldn't have to even home charge probably.
It's been a big shift in mind for me after buying my forst EV and still running from a granny charger, and only when rates are super low on Octopus Agile, granted my mileage is fairly low, however I've realised that I may not even need to fork out for a proper charger as I can trickle charge little and often. Seeing how it goes so far, either going to have to pay more than 10pkwh and charge longer on the granny, or install a proper charger and charge when super cheap rates but quicker. Time will tell
@@seakayak4425 So you don’t know what I’ve just said then? Got it. Nor do you believe the national grid who are literally in charge of it. Conspiracy theorists unite! Ban the chemtrails!
I've been saying for years that there should be charging in every parking space. Be it private driveways, public and private car parks, every on street slot. If an EV is not driving, it should have the optiojn to be pugged in. Add to that two way charging, with a protocol thart can be controled by the nation grid. We have a scaleable distributed storeage system. (Opt-in, of course. But if you can lease your battery back, at an attractive rate, people will do that.)
Charge when stopped rather than stop to charge. As more people get BEVs and home charging, family & friends can use those "home destination" chargers when visiting family and friends.
The issue is when you go to Supermarkets in the UK they see it as a way of making money from charging and not getting you into the shop. 75-85p/kWh. Same with some chain hotels like premier inn, ripping off the punters at 85p. For me, destination chargers is a hotel that allows you to plug in at 25p/kWh
Encourage you to spend longer in the shop…
45p kWh for ac charging is a joke. It would be cheaper to drive an efficient petrol car.
@@alibro7512 The price of rapid chargers needs reviewing. Ive seen 90p a kwh and if you cant charge at home that really makes it MORE expensive than a petrol car especially if its something like a nissan ariya thats a 87kwh battery thats £70 quid to fill for 280 miles range but if you put £70 quid of diesel into a nissan qashqai youd get 450 miles range.
@@cephasmakuzva Good point that is why people stick to a combustion car.They don't want to be ripped off which is happening.I be changing to an EV this year it be on the motability scheme.We have a home charger otherwise i would have never done it.
When Tesco did it for free I only ever shopped there. Now I barely go... Tbf, Tesco is still cheap-ish to charge in - 44p/kWh, which is probably only just covering their costs.
Couldn't agree more, as a 10+ year EV driver I made the installation of 2 x 22kW destination chargers a priority when I recently purchased a holiday cottage business in Gower, South Wales. The cars are going to be parked overnight, so no need for an expensive rapid charger - this is where EV ownership becomes frictionless, and surpasses ICE cars for convenience.
Could have saved a fortune 7kw chargers would have been a better use of the money I regularly use holiday cottages and even a granny charger at 3kw is enough for most.
@@eddiereed5025 getting elec supply to the car park dwarfed the charger cost.
@@percy9924 Exactly you must have had to pay to get a 3 ph supply in when 2 granny chargers could have been used off existing supply.
@eddiereed5025 no granny option, as car park is across a busy road. As someone who coped with granny charging my only car for 3+ years, I know that it can suffice, however it wasn't an option. Plus I would want to enable our guests to benefit from off-peak charging rates once the energy suppliers sort out proper time of use tariffs for business customers. The hope is to be able to offer charging for free in the future.
I hope your foresight and consideration are suitably rewarded. Others will follow eventually.
An excellent video. This is one of the biggest issues in the charging network.
I live in Southsea in Portsmouth and have been running EVs for 5 years. Portsmouth is an island city mainly built by the Victorians. Off street parking is rare. 5 years ago our council started installing street lamp based 4kW chargers. It’s how us residents charge overnight. Visitors to the city use them in the day. Our council was really thinking ahead. We now have over 90 chargers in the city.
For a couple of years the chargers worked well and cost about the same as home electricity. Then it all started to go wrong. The prices crept up during the energy crisis to around 50p/kWh and never went back down. Some became very unreliable. Finally, 6 months ago they all got turned off because the street lamp electricity supplier had a hissy fit and sent a legal letter to the council telling them to turn them off. Lots of emails to the council and councillors still hasn’t yielded any answers.
A city like Portsmouth trying to clean up it’s air and give residents the opportunity to own EVs needs working reasonably priced destination chargers. The roads are full of parked cars which if they were EVs could plug into street chargers.
I’m fortunate to have a Tesla now and there’s a local Supercharger. It’s a pain sitting waiting for a charge compared with plugging into the charger across the road from my home every couple of nights. The Superchargers are inexpensive and I tend to do my work admin while charging. But Portsmouth City Councils failure to make a success of street chargers that started so well cannot be an example of how we deal with urban charging.
I also live in Portsmouth. Copnor. From southsea where you are the local "TESLA" SUPERCHARGER is 9 miles away in Langstone and takes 20 mins each way to drive down to. I assume you use a more local rapid charger. How much is this local rapid charger thats 'inexpensive' and where (I'm yet to hear of this one so I look forward to it) and yes our council really made a mess of the lamp post ones in the city all being forced to be turned off by the electricity supplier for lamp posts. But again theres only a few lamp posts that can facilite that. Like 4 that can be used on every street. Thats not the answer. We need more slow inexpensive chargers on streets like the video said because portsmouth home charging cant happen on the terraced streets or alot more cheaper fast chargers but i know its expensive to put up rapid chargers and maintain so they have to be expensive.
@@cephasmakuzva I’m in Southsea. As a driving instructor I work all over the city so there are plenty of times when I finish a lesson in the north of the city and can hop along to Langstone then catch up with admin, calls and messages while charging. It works OK for me but that’s because of my work. I’d much rather just plug in at night.
The Superchargers cost anything from 34p/kWh to 43p/kWh depending on the time of day. Can usually get around 125kWh charge speed. This is a lot less than local rapids and cheaper than the street chargers at around 50p/kWh.
Let’s get a charger in every street lamp first. Most people will only charge every few days. Once that is done the next stage needs thinking about. In a densely populated city like Portsmouth every road has an electric main running along it. Taking spurs off of that can run chargers adding more capacity.
That's brilliant I will have to visit!
EV man you should visit Norway (Oslo). EVERY Parking spot in nearly every car park has destination charging, ice'n isn't a thing . cos every parking spot has chargers (mind you ICE is nearly gone in Norway)
In Norway, ICE cars are taxed heavily aren't they?
I can only see plugin hybrids gaining ground in the UK unless our new government makes real investment in chargers
That's great but not many countries' electricity is 98% hydro and wind produced. It's a great incentive
Yes but a standard ICE car 20k is charged at 100k with taxes. They only do local miles. Bergen to stavanger 69 miles they always fly. So you cannot use Norway as an example. My work has 300 destination chargers free to workers. Oh wait oil company spending billions on windfarms and infrastructure. But then they do not virtual signal.
Problem with Norway is they sell most of their fossil fuels to other countries, quite ironic
@@EssKayTee1Renewable use is growing annually. Considerably.
If you’re trying to make the point that there are still point-of-generation emissions when fossil-sourced gen is used, that’s true, but due to greater efficiency and EV still has lower emissions than petrol even on a 100% coal-fired grid.
It's amazing how useful even a 3 pin plug can be. If you're staying somewhere for a couple of nights or at work a few days a week you could get a full charge - and no install costs. If you do 200 miles a week, that's about 50kwh per week. On a 2kw domestic socket that's 25 hours, so about 3 x 8 hour charges while at work or whatever. Sometimes you only need a few more miles to get home and you can add 80-100 miles overnight. It's not ideal but it's workable in many cases.
I agree with the sentiment here. Most ICE drivers think about "filling a tank" rather than grazing at a destination.
Yep, but I can tell you I did not graze at the garage filling my previous Diesel car, it was such a noxious experience that I minimised it by brimming the car to keep from having to repeat it for as long as possible. Grazing for an EV makes so much more sense.
Depends how much. It costs. Extortionate public charging, even slow chargers. If it comes down, will make it more attractive
They also tend to forget the time they spend simply faffing about when doing it.
That is because ev's have a limited range and 30% less in winter. I sold my ev because the value was going off a cliff. I am now in a petrol car that will do 500 miles. If you do a long journey you will need to stop and rapid charge. Smaller battery ev's make sense for commuting 100 miles a day but the loss of range over time you will see at least 10% less range after 6 to 8 years (possibly moe). Batteries costs have dropped 50% but replacement battery cost are still far to high. Mercedes possibly getting out of making electric cars along with BMW.
@@RBcymru I don't lose '30% range in winter' in my EV.
What EV did you 'sell' when you had already noticed 'the value had gone off a cliff'?
Mercedes are not 'possibly getting out of making electric cars along with BMW' you melon.
A big problem with destination chargers is blocking either by ice, or (new?) ev drivers. I recently attended a wedding at a remote hotel. It had a row of chargers, where a saw a Polester charging on the first day. Second day it was still there dispute obviously being fully charged. My Tesla long range had 80% when I arrived so I didn’t need to charge, but the point is that on slow chargers people just seem to stay on them until they go home.
Yes it's not just the number of chargers, it's the pricing scheme for them as well. Connected and not charging should also have a cost of some sort.
Completely agree. I've only had an EV a few months but I've already encountered this problem. Had a trip to York last month. Used the park and ride but was amazed they had about 6 fast chargers and no destination chargers. Luckily I didn't need top up as it turned out but would have been very annoyed to have to wait while it charged on the fast charger, when it could have charged over the 4 hours I spent in York otherwise.
We have taken to using people's home chargers that are near tube stations, via zap map and just park
Great video. There’s a small multi level indoor car park where I live. It houses 16 Tesla Superchargers and 130 level 2 chargers. The great thing is EVERY parking spot has a charger so ICEing is a non issue as every spot has one. I hope we will see more of these kinds of car parks.
As others have mentioned. The cost of destination charging needs to come down. I live between Bedford and Northampton and near me supermarkets, cinemas etc are charging around 45p/kwh. Thats too much. We're sleep walking into a situation where the poorer people in society who can't afford homes with off street parking, and thus do 100% on public networks, are going to be paying considerably more for their electricity than those better off in society. That can't be allowed to continue.
Agree completely, we’re away this weekend and put 40kWh in today on one of twelve destination chargers at a National Trust site we were visiting anyway. The avoided a trip to a rapid (to be fair there are a total of 30 available at three sites within 10 mins of where we’re staying so it wouldn’t a massive pain) but not having to wait around was great. I’d also second @animationcreations42’s comment about faster AC also being part of the solution. Given most larger installs of destruction chargers will almost certainly be split across phases making them 11 or even 22kW capable isn’t a huge increase in cost but significantly increases the utility for people with capable cars, certainly 11kWh onboard is becoming more common. Not important at most work places but at supermarkets and cinemas it could really help.
Another viewpoint. I live in SW France in quite a touristy, medieval village. I have just had a domestic charger installed. (With a €600 contribution from Renauld and a €700 tax break from that nice Mr. Macron)! Now, visitors to the village will normally stay for several hours, canoeing on the river, climbing, having lunch, exploring, whatever. There is an app which enables me to share my charger with any EV owner. I assume a similar thing exists in the UK as well. Not decided yet but, if I decide to partake, I get paid and another charger will be available in the village. If you think about it, and in bigger conurbations, that could be a great asset if it is widely taken up!
Unfortunately in the UK it technically makes your home a business and I believe you’d need change of use planning permission .
@@knotts163 Really?! Yet I can do it in France, the Blue Riband of bureaucracy!
@@brianbarcroft9167 I may be wrong, there are apparently a number of “peer to peer” apps and services available in the UK. Might have a look at them!
So if the electric goes down again we know who to blame😂
I thought zap map or similar did this in the UK?
My office recently had 8 chargers installed. I've used them a couple of times, once to try them out and then last Thursday to top up to 100% as I was going immediately from the office to do the ~250 mile drive up to Harrogate for Everything Electric.
Great idea but in practice I won't use them too often as it's 59p per kWh. Quite a lot more than my 9p at home (4 miles away). We need the price of destination charging to come down (VAT is part of that).
My work charge 25p which is great, means anyone with a home charger won't bother but anyone without can get a pretty good deal.
I don't have a home charger, but luckily we have a few at my workplace, and they cost the same as electricity at home.
Good point. I think work charging is really only for those who don't have a home charger or those who are doing a long commute and so can't do the round trip without a charge stop. So I think a few chargers at most offices is probably a good idea and the sweet spot for pricing is probably 15-30p/kwh to make it attractive enough for those people but not so cheap that people who could charge at home start charging at the office thus preventing those who have a greater need.
@@brentmeistergeneral1054 exactly. I've been at a work place with free charging and people who don't need them hog it each day.
@@LiiMuRi My electricity at home costs 9p/kWh (for 4 hours each night, so about 90-100miles). I regularly keep the car charged to about 70-80% so that the full 4 hour charge could easily achieve a 100% charge if/when I need it. I’ve then got a 250 miles range, before thinking too hard about topping up if necessary. Daytime electricity at home is currently 26.3p/kWh, so is second choice.
It was great discussing this at Everything Electric and totally agreed.11kWh AC charger is a lot cheaper than a rapid charger. Cinema 3 hour visit and more than half a battery gained. Or even a smaller one filled. Destination chargers are needed, not necessarily more rapid chargers.
Agree with this but for me there are two other important elements to the equation. First is maintenance and reliability, this weekend I have attempted to graze at a modern multi storey car park and all chargers were out of order. Then at supermarket today the charger was down. So investment in maintenance is as important. Second one is cost, public charging costs are now comparative to petrol so to graze away from home or to attract more drivers who cannot charge at home we need to make it cost attractive.
But more slower chargers at these destinations is def the way forwards 😊
Exactly correct as usual Andy. My non EV owning friends and colleagues seem to think you need lots of public rapid chargers. As an experienced EV owner (since 2016) I agree with you that the slow chargers are far more important. The only times we should be using rapid chargers is for a journey longer than the car range - so for many these days that means a 300 mile journey and for me at least that happens a couple of times a year. Even when we do go away I now try to find accommodation with a destination charger - it really does make the qorld of difference if you are an ev driver. So I would prefer that hotels, B&b's etc. invest in destination chargers rather than rapid chargers. To be honest if i am staying at a hotel a rapid charger is less convenient- i will have to unplug it after 30 minutes whereas a destination charger i can leave till the nezt morning.
That’s fine if there is a charger for very customer with an EV.
At a hotel people would expect to plug their ev in and leave it overnight. For the hotel etc this could be a source of conflict with guests and poor reviews.
It’s like how we tend to eat. Most is at home. Sometimes we have a snack when out and about. We don’t go for a big expensive meal every time we want to eat.
Spot on, this makes so much sense, especially for those who can not charge at home
Agree fully. Just completed 4,000 + km road trip in eastern Australia. When booking, I chose accommodation offering destination charging. Many benefits - less charging time on the road, less cost (usually free) and better for the battery. Another destination option is the simple 3-pin plug. It is slower but when neither rapid chargers or destination chargers are available it can opens up amazing remote area options.
Spot on EVM! Great video and a change in mindset needed by those with the money and influence to make it happen.
Completely agree Andy, we need the right chargers at the right location. More destination charging at places were people will typically be sat for an hour or more.
Btw, it was great chatting with you at EE North 👍🏾
My nearest Morrisons petrol station was closed for a few days recently
There have been reports of traffic delays due to fuel / oil spills
Great point, didn't we start with these about 10 years ago, but now most seem to have been removed .
Right on point EVM. With progress being made on L3 rapid charge networks, L2 charging is the area most in need of improvement. Town councils need to make it easy to install troughs for charge cables to cross your sidewalk, and partner with CPOs to install street-side L2 charge points. Tax breaks are needed to encourage landlords and business owners to install L2 charge points.
Totally agree Andy, local authorities etc need to get their heads around this. One thing I would add is that the calls for a VAT reduction should (in my opinion) be only for the equivalent chargers to home devices, ie 7kW or less. This is more reasonable as it brings parity between those who can charge at home and those who can’t. I fear asking for VAT cuts on all chargers will always be dismissed as we pay full VAT on petrol.
There is a shortage of AC chargers in the UK for older EV's that were pre-CCS. Some charging points have DC CCS only, and some have AC but are only 7kwh. 22kwh chargers (and a few more of them) are a must if we are going to expand destination chargers.
kW not kWh. :)
Agree totally. I did a tour of Northern France last year and after the first day travel I realized I didn’t need to plan around rapid chargers- instead I found there were public car parks with slow chargers in most towns and often the parking was free so recharged overnight for the next days touring. Just need to watch for idle fees!
I went to Clacton last week. There was one single 7KW at the multi-story car park, maximum 3 hour stay. Shortly after getting there, someone trapped on my window asking how long I was going to be. I said at least 2 hours. When I came back 3 hours later, he was there, hanging about!
I went to Norwich later in the day. The multi-story car park, had about 8 chargers. Non of them working 🫤
I ended up using a Tesla super charger. Worked flawlessly. 45p per kw. Nice location, and pub serving food.
Good video , shame no mention that destination chargers are ideal for PHEVs, my C5X will do 30+ miles in Electric mode and only takes 01:45 (@7.5 kw charger ) to recharge it's battery.
Did recently a short road trip to in northern Spain (from Porto). Charge wasn’t enough to return without a charge, and I didn’t care as i knew there is a supercharger close by. However, when we went to the city and parked at the harbor, i discovered they had around 15 charge points of which 2 were in use. Just standard 11 kW. Price was included in the parking fee (or no extra charge), and in the few hours we enjoyed the town the car charged up enough to comfortably drive back home and do the next few days of local driving.
Yes: tons of low power chargers is what we need.
My destination charging is my home and my work with AC charging. There are some good ones in Selfridges car park in Brimingham. More of those are needed in places where you will spend more than an hour.
After a year charging my EV on public chargers only, I agree. Charging at home isn't an option for me. I occasionally use a rapid charger because it fits better in my schedule, but most of the time I just charge in the neighborhood I'm parking anyway.
I work in a business park with a (council-run) multi-storey car park. One floor has a charger for each space, and they're free to use (you still have to pay to park). That'd be perfect, except that floor is always full. Shows the idea works, but there need to be many more like it.
1000% agree with you.
Just done a trip for a few days to London in my E-Niro.
100% to 39% and I had travelled 185 miles. We done the Harry Potter studio Tour and that topped me back up to 90% while we done the tour at one of their 40 destination chargers. Plenty in the battery to get me back home...
So a near 400 mile road trip away from home and not had to use a single rapid charger. For a grand total of just over 20 quid including my home charge to get me back to 100%.
I find it truly baffling that the major hotel chains are not rolling out massive amounts of destination chargers in their hotels that can load manage between each other. The amount of revenue they are missing out on is tremendous.
In Sandyford there are chargers built into the street lighting so either every second lamp post or every lamp post for slow charging.
Very true every lamp post should have a charge point, little bit of profit for the council and maybe the councils can then afford to turn said mentioned lamp posts back on at night! win, win
100% agree. Most of the time the car is used in a commute, typically within the car's range. The car is then parked up for hours. Once in a while a longer journey is made which needs the car to beyond its range. We need the rapid network for that. But for 99% of journeys a destination charger is all we need.
Brilliant video. A really important concept that approaches EV charging from the opposite direction to the naysayers who hate them because they can’t drive 600 miles on a single tank.
100%! 👏
I visited Alton Towers recently, they’re currently installing some EV chargers and I hope to god they’re SLOW chargers. No one is leaving a theme park after 2 hours to unplug and move the car from a charging point.
We need to address this obsession everyone has with super-fast (and usually super expensive!) charging. Yes, it’s important at a motorway services. But if your car is going to be sat still for 2 or 3 hours, there are better options.
1000% agree. We are lucky in Pembrokeshire. Towns have destination chargers in most National Park carparks.
Destination chargers are better for your battery too as they charge slower.
A very valid point here. We REALLY need more destination chargers like this.
At the moment there are so few it's laughable. My local town has two locations with around 10 chargers in total.
But, most are out of order when you visit.
Also, hotels are another area where they really need to have some chargers installed.
For the moment, I can only think that hotels may need a night car administrator to move cars around when batteries become charged.
Imo, what we need more of us 22kW chargers and 22kW support in cars!
When we had the Zoe, we could basically get a full charge when doing a shop at Aldi and a quick coffee in Spoons, all for 25p/kWh!
California, Colorado, Florida, Hawaii, Maryland, New Jersey, New York, Oregon, and Virginia have passed right-to-charge laws aiming to streamline the installation of residential community EV charging stations. Also, Illinois recently passed a right-to-charge law specific to new houses or multiunit buildings.
I am really fortunate to work for a company that has a clear sustainability vision and we have 10 22kWh chargers across three sites that are set at a reasonable rate (less than domestic peak rate). There has been quite a large up-take of a salary sacrifice EV scheme and many of the charge points are used daily. We also have a pool-car EV (Polestar) for supplier visits.
I am also fortunate to have my own charge point at home so can charge up for a third of the cost of the work chargers!! I haven’t yet needed to use the work chargers (or a Rapid charger).
I am 100% with you on the destination charger thing. Motorway services are probably one of the few places that really need rapid chargers, arguably supermarket car parks as well (people tend to be there for around an hour) but most places would benefit from lots of 7-22kWh chargers and nothing more. These are cheap, generally reliable and require much less infrastructure to be installed. Every public car park in the country should be required to install these in 10% of spaces as a minimum starting point!
Brilliantly worked out, and as you said there would be no need for most people to buy massive cars that they do not need and kills off the argument of range anxiety, which has always concerned me because of the lack of infrastructure.
My new office at work Has 350 destination chargers but that is the oil company investing themselves. So no excuses.
Perhaps your most important video ever. Bravo. And thank you
I’m on my third EV over the last 6.5 years and can’t charge at home. I have adapted to all the changes until recently when it’s become untenable. The main stumbling blocks now are the price of AC chargers and the ridiculous parking restrictions at these sites. Eg. You can’t use them when the store is closed, you only have 90 minutes when the store is open, no return within 4.5 hours etc.
Totally agree. Place those on the football stadion, at the GYM when you work out.
When your going to tennis, hockey, Yoga, the dog training school, or the mall, what ever.
There is electricity at every street corner, shed or lamppost, use it.
Fully agree and some local councils are doing it. For example in London/Fulham almost every lamppost is converted into a destination charger. I think more than 400 of them in 2023
Lamp posts and parking lots are really the key to adoption, especially for those with smaller batteries where you can get upwards of 60% in a few hours. A ratio of around 1:6 between rapid and non rapid chargers, especially with off peak rates, feels like the primary priority for any new charging spots being installed
(I could discuss only focusing on 50 - 100kw speeds over supposed 300kw+ ones, but it would take longer than an average charge to go over that lol)
Currently it’s 5am and I’m at a Tesla open to all getting a charge at 34p per kWh and it does me approximately 6 days so 6 days motoring is around £11! (About 200 miles). Any new government we get in has to look at charging particularly the 20% vat on public charging
Sadly the current opposition party has said it's sticking to the finance plans of the current lot, so that's vat on charging and a big jump in ved on EVs next year 😕
We have only EVs in our household since 2019 now and we don't ever charge at home. We ONLY use a destination charger in our village. I totally agree that destination charging is very underrated compared to rapid charging.
Absolutely!!!!! I use en-route charging maybe on 10 trips a year. But if I could charge in any carpark I arrived at at 7kW I would use it when away from home.
Local councils seem to use destination charging as a cash cow. In Scarborough they use Connected Kerb who charge 50p per kWh. But I've seen higher prices in some towns.
Much as I have thought for several years. Some kind of phone app for identification would work with a small screen QR code that could change every time it was used.
Great video, as usual, thanks. There are plenty of 7kW chargers where I live but they are rarely used. The only time I attempted it so far I gave up, frustrated with the obscurity of what was going on. For instance my nearest chargers are run by Blink, yet they don't appear on Blink's own map of their charger network!
Ultimately I think what's going on is the phenomenon where you can only get serious resources for things that are profitable to do. I've been watching for 40 years now frustrated at how painfully slow the roll out of decent home insulation is. It's a great idea but somehow it doesn't happen and I think that's because there's no glamour to it (in marketing terms) and no money in it for the installers. That's with the exception of double glazing - poor value as insulation but profitable so well supported.
In the world of charging that spot seems to be occupied by home chargers. They're very appealing to users so the installers can run a good business. DC chargers seem at least to have the glamour. AC, valuable as it is just isn't very well executed. Yet?
Hear hear. I would love to replace my petrol car with an EV but I live in a flat and the cost to install charging for us is unaffordable. I'd love to charge at work but again there's no charging there either. My only option is expensive rapid chargers that may put strain on the car's battery. Additionally, I don't want to sit in a windy carpark for an hour a week charging at 75p kwh. So I'll replace my petrol car with another petrol car until things improve.
Thank you for tackling this subject. So many EV sites pass it off as an non-issue. Millions of homeowners in the UK live in flats or terrace houses with no off street parking/charging.
100% totally agree. Thank you for the video.
I agree, most people are travelling far for the day out, so places like hotels, museums, cinemas, National trust, zoo, theme parks, arenas, and just general popular point of interest only need to be the slower kind because your usually going to spend the day there. Most of these place have started putting one or two pint in, but they need to be a lot more.
The thing that annoys me is, 7kW chargers are installed in car parks so you can charge whilst you go and do something else, but they stupidly put an overstay penalty on them so you have to keep checking the time and rush back to disconnect.
What type of destination charger was it?
Broad access and fair pricing seems to be the required mix. Thanks for highlighting this.
I see a trip to Norway in your future. This would allow you to compare and contrast.
Fancy a new job, Transport Minister maybe? Keep up the flow of real info mate. Well done and all the best going forward 👍🏻
Destination charging is good if it’s home or work but on the rare times we’ve had to charge it’s been quite expensive to do so. We try to keep to under 150 miles on the outleg so we get back home to charge
Here in NZ, there is a big box retailer that has 22kw chargers for free! Also, a supermarket chain that has 7Kw chargers for free too! Big incentive to shop at these places.
Totally agree, lots of parking lots with destination chargers, they don't need to be more than 11 kW plenty of power to get it filled up in a few hours at work or at the hotels, for Malls a 50 kW will be sufficient, this way you can charge an hour while shopping
The trouble is Andy our head office is like your work we have 16 chargers and but 200 parking spaces and the manager’s book them every day and the engineers with electric vans can’t get on them and the same thing happens when we go to our sites which are government owned the managers there use them and are not available I agree with you
Here in Lancaster the issue is cost more than availability. Our cheapest fast charging is 32p/kWh out at the University (3 miles outside the city) and then Charge-my-street at 40p of which there are only a couple, the vast majority are BP Pulse priced 59p/kWh (7kW), if that's the cheapest way to charge your car (ie. no home charging) it's cheaper to run an ICE vehicle. It would be interesting if we got an open to all Tesla site to see how the others reacted to some real competition.
So agree. Groceries work for high speed charging ports. A grocery shop is about 1/2 hr or so.
Work can be slow chargers but I would suggest partly sheltered ports for people whose cars are older like Leafs that can’t grill in the sun.
The bigger problem is the cost of charging on the road.
I’ll give you a recent example :
I’ve got two cars, one is a hybrid Toyota gas guzzling van which does about 25mpg and my Ioniq 5 EV which costs 9p per kWh to charge on Octopus Go.
Recently had a long trip to Manchester from my home in Oxford and was toying with which car to take and decided on the EV.
Having got to Manchester with 30% battery I charged the car from 30-85% at a Lidl ccs 50kw charger, which cost £30 !
So my total expenditure to get back to Oxford was around £37…outgoing journey £7 and return £30.
If I had taken my gas guzzling van, it would have only cost £33.
Why oh why is public charging so expensive !!
Well said. There are a few national trust places that have destination chargers which makes a lot of sense. They dont have many but its a start. I was pleased to see all 3 in use at fountains Abbey this week. There is clearly a need need for them. I asked someone at Lightwater valley before going there about ev charging and they didnt seem interested at all.
I think the problem with loads at Nation Trust properties is getting power (and the cost of it) to these rural locations.
100% agree. I can get 250-300 miles range from my Kona. If there’s a destination charger, that unlocks the vast majority of the country without any need to stop more than once in the middle…
I stayed in a place up in Scotland, beautiful place and they had solar/batteries etc. Had an EV charger and included 100kWh in the price, if more is needed they charge the grid rate for electric (regardless how it’s generated) which seemed entirely reasonable to me, perfect!
Basically, just enough to do a full charge and then top up bits for the week that we were there. I would happily pay more to stay somewhere with destination charging that is reasonably priced.
Yes, yes, yes!
When away from home I’ve been tending to stay in a Travelodge at services because they mostly have 2 Gridserve AC chargers. Perfect when staying overnight and cheaper than DC.
Now, at these services, they’re upgrading them with an additional 12 - 16 DC rapid chargers but no more AC.
People need to use the AC chargers more. When I’ve been staying at one of these locations, I’ve rarely seen anyone else using the AC chargers. If the networks don’t see a demand for them, they’re not going to install more.
I run a small complex of self-catering cottages and have recently installed a 7kw charger for exactly this reason. I don’t own an EV myself (yet) and I'd have installed another bay if I had enough capacity in my consumer unit. I want my guests to be able to trickle charge when parked here and not to spend their holiday looking for charging when out and about. I just pass on the unit kWh rate that I pay and have absorbed the installation cost myself.
I can't charge at home, and I only use destination chargers most of the time when visiting a city or going to the beach.
100% agree, and much kinder on the battery.
Love your mii - have a vw eup! and it’s been used as more than a short range car on several occasions. So efficient! Would love to see a video on the car.
I'm planning to go to York this weekend. Zapmap shows the park and ride at Poppleton has super rapid chargers just next door, that's great but I want to pull up and get on a bus for the park and ride leaving the car on charge for a few hours instead of waiting to rapid charge it in 40 minutes.
I have a 22kw charge I installed at work, even though my car actually only charges at 11kw AC... future proofing.. I use it once a week usually. After one year of ownership I've used a rapid charger on 2 long trips from Southport to Southampton.
It would help if some of the companies made sure they were working and when you report them they bothered to fix them rather than leaving them out of action for 3 months plus.
I have just had a holiday on the East Coast and spent most of one morning looking for a charger that was actually working.
I completely agree! Destination charging makes much more sense than Rapids. I can’t understand why tourists destinations like Devon and Cornwall don’t focus on putting large numbers of 7kW chargers in car parks near tourist hotspots. Cheaper equipment, less demand on the grid for connection and people can just graze for a charge whilst doing other things.
Another thing is lamp post chargers. We have tech demonstration versions of those where I work. Only 4.6kW but imagine if all lamp posts you could park next to had one!
Probably the Most Important video you have ever made. 100% agree that Destination chargers that are affordable to use, with free parking, are the key to universal EV adoption. The Government have left it to the commercial sector, who by and large are ripping us off. Tesco and Lidl are being fair. And some independents like our local Otter Nurseries, which is still free to use!
Agree. Both destination and rapid chargers are part of the solution. I charge at home the majority of the time but changed job last year and now charge at a destination charger in a park and ride. Saves £££’s versus rapid but still not as cheap as I’d like. Driving a Nissan leaf the car is fully charged by the time I’ve finished work. Use destination chargers twice a week and makes commuting with a 40kwh battery achievable.
Best thing of driving an EV is not going to petrol stations.
It's said many times on here, the price of fast charging is almost if not the same as rapid charging. But in this scenario if you're stopping for many hours it could still be beneficial to use the fast charger at the expensive rate, because you're not having to wait by the car or be in fear of an overstay.
But on the other hand if you are willing to wait by the charger then go to an open to all Tesla supercharger, they are generally oneof the cheapest ways to publicly charge
Church Stretton in Shropshire have 16 distination chargers 50p per kwh and free parking on a Sunday. Go for a hike and come back at 100%
Excellent video. Totally agree with this, just need the next government to understand what is required to increase the level of EV adoption.
Great video, I live in a small town in Mid Devon, at the end of last year we applied for a government LEVI (local ev infrastructure) grant to install some AC chargers. We were told we would hear back at the end of January. Typically nothing was heard back but in the mean time we got a quote for £55,000 for the power for four 22kW chargers. I chased up the elusive LEVI grant and was told yesterday that the government is distributing the money to the county councils and that Devon is getting just over £7,000,000 for the whole county. Based upon the cost for our small town, pop about 13000, I cannot see this being nearly enough and the EV targets being pushed back beyond 2035.
Remember most cars can only charge at 7kW (or 11) from an ac charger, even if the charger itself is rated at 22kW. You may be better off with more 7kW chargers or spending less and installing just 4.
👍yes! destination charging is 💯
Also, charging for street side parking is important.
Great video, this is exactly what’s needed.
I take this AC grazing approach whenever possible. In an older EV like mine (i3) is trying to avoid or not over-use DC rapid another reason to do this? Local authority staff and fleet charging cannot make a ‘profit’ but can add 2p or so per kW to cover admin costs, so my workplace charger is cheaper than home, so on my 1-2 days in office per week I charge. Chargers at hotels/accomodation is now an important choice factor. Bodmin Jail hotel’s free 22 kW chargers helped me do 700 miles to/from/around Cornwall last summer. Lastly grants exist for employers to put in staff chargers.
Having moved to a new build apartment in Doncaster I could no longer charge at home. Fortunately the local park and ride at the railway station which is only 2 minutes walk away have installed 7 kw chargers. The apartment under new legislation have to provide car chargers. Due to builder problems these have been delayed but are now fitted and waiting for commissioning.
I live on a small Mediterranean island which has 300 days of sunshine and no long distance driving. The amazing thing is that the local government built a huge solar farm with battery storage, installed 120 destination chargers across the island and they are all free! I have had my Model 3 Highland now for 6 months and I have never paid for any charging. I understand that this is unusual, but it has led to an explosion of EVs on the island. Make it attractive and people will switch.
I experienced a park and ride railway station, they had dozens of 7kW slow chargers, great idea, however they had an overstay fee of £12 after 12 hours, great if you’re going into the city for work, but hopeless if you’re going in one day, returning the next.
Completely agree with this. Hotels are an obvious one, lots of chain hotels now have a rapid charger, which is great, but a whole bank of AC chargers would make far more sense for residents to charge over night.
Charging suitable for application is key.
I agree 100%, I did have hope for some solar pv panels on ev roofs, if I could charge at even 3-5KW a day, I wouldn't have to even home charge probably.
It's been a big shift in mind for me after buying my forst EV and still running from a granny charger, and only when rates are super low on Octopus Agile, granted my mileage is fairly low, however I've realised that I may not even need to fork out for a proper charger as I can trickle charge little and often. Seeing how it goes so far, either going to have to pay more than 10pkwh and charge longer on the granny, or install a proper charger and charge when super cheap rates but quicker. Time will tell
the national grid do not have the capacity for all the chargers...
Of course they do! 😄
They’ve said it themselves for years.
@@ElectricVehicleMan no they don't lol etc..
@@seakayak4425 you’re confusing demand with capacity.
@@ElectricVehicleMan Well I can take very little advice from evangelical cultists as a sound practical approach
@@seakayak4425 So you don’t know what I’ve just said then?
Got it.
Nor do you believe the national grid who are literally in charge of it.
Conspiracy theorists unite!
Ban the chemtrails!
I've been saying for years that there should be charging in every parking space. Be it private driveways, public and private car parks, every on street slot. If an EV is not driving, it should have the optiojn to be pugged in.
Add to that two way charging, with a protocol thart can be controled by the nation grid. We have a scaleable distributed storeage system.
(Opt-in, of course. But if you can lease your battery back, at an attractive rate, people will do that.)
Charge when stopped rather than stop to charge. As more people get BEVs and home charging, family & friends can use those "home destination" chargers when visiting family and friends.