How We Set Up Our Heat Pump For Best Running Costs
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- Опубликовано: 18 сен 2024
- Partly due to requests and partly due to me hoping to pool resources in the comments for any tweaks others have made, here's how we've setup our Heat Pump with regard to the heating and hot water.
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What’s happened to my life when I’m watching a Middle Aged man talk about a heat pump
.....you COULD be watching a man talk about train spotting(not the movie.....!)
I watch people magnet fishing, is this what happens when you turn 35
Oh! Magnet fishing, didn’t stumble in that yet. Hmmm… yeah, all downhill from here. Nevertheless apart from magnet fishing, I can recommend the “All-In” podcast, dont know how I missed this until now. Thought I would share
I have to take RUclips "off piste" from time to time. Always a welcome relief when RUclips algorithm pops a suggestion of pole dancing with the message "Other people interested in 3D printing also watched this."
@@andymccabe6712 or spiderman 14
We run our ASHP similarly - we make maximum use of the Octopus Go tariff by running the underfloor heating and hot water between 0030 and 0430 each day. In the summer, the ASHP is powered entirely by solar PV and battery storage to produce hot water during the day. The savings to date relative to our old oil fired Rayburn have been considerable. I don’t have exact figures but I estimate we have spent somewhere between 30% and 50% of what we would have done on oil.
In the Netherlands there is no such thing as 1/3 price night tariff, so I choose the warmest hours of the day to do the heavy stuff like heating water: 14:00 hrs. In general I try to let the heat pump work when outside temperature is the highest. We do have a well insulated house, so we can afford to not start the heat pump early in the morning when it is the coldest moment of the day. We save a lot of kWh this way, up to 50% compared to neighbours who don't care.
Aww this was sooo helpful Andy. We live in an ex council semi "darn sarf" and I'm not happy with the idea of cavity wall insulation. I believe it will cause damp problems later in a sixty year old building that has been "breathing"happily all it's life. I've recently had a builder tell me I'm not barmy to hold that belief too.
Especially, we don't have the (combi boiler)central heating on much higher than 18.5° max 19° if the wind's in the wrong direction. At night we turn it down to 15° and it's only that high because we have a lurcher and apparently that's the lowest temp they'll tolerate! 😅
So the house is never that hot until the summer when all the windows are thrown open for a through draft or more recently all windows closed along with the thick curtains to try and keep cool.
I was under the impression that this use pattern would not work with a heat pump and that it would be very expensive to run without hyper insulating.
However from your description it sounds like with a bit of extra loft insulation our usage requirements might work well.
If that's the case we could be cooler in the summer (at a cost of course but we use various fans anyway) with the heat pump's cooling ability which be a relief for us and the dog!
You've made me think it might be possible after all. I shall investigate further, cheers me dear.👍👏
Insulation only affects how much energy you need to use. Doesn’t matter whether you use a heat pump, gas, oil, wood, or putting a pitcher on a treadmill…
Since fitting a Hive Home thermostat to my Combi-boiler system I have set up my heating controls to a very similar pattern to the one you describe in this video. It controls the Hot Water and Heating via a combi boiler. This has significantly reduced our gas bills as overall we are using less gas for a home that is constantly warm and hot water on demand. The big difference is that this cost me £250 instaead of many thousands of pounds for an Air Source Heat Pump!
Good to see you have reduced your cost and consumption, but you won’t be able to do this for a new boiler in two years time though.
After allowing for the cost of a replacement gas boiler of £3K, an ASHP was an additional £2K
The bigger picture with Solar, Battery and a heat pump, around 1/2 our home generated energy runs it all.
If you can do it, and I understand it’s not for all due to cost constraints (but better than a new car!), I’m convinced you should do it.
@@John-FourteenSix I'm not convinced. Panels + heat pump + battery will set you back around £40k. That will never pay itself back when you then include maintenance, insurance, & energy prices returning to normal. I've excluded any costs of insulation/secondary glazing which may also be required with a heat pump.
we run our gas like that now. opentherm so will trickle as far as possible low and slow (but with the ability to ramp up quickly in the morning). Definitely using less than before and more comfortable as you don’t get that ‘chill’ from the rads constantly cycling on/off
Likewise. It's saved us 25 percent versus last year when it was off during the day and on in the mornings and evenings. And there isn't that horrible wait whilst you wait for the house to warm up. Do need to grab a jumper as soon as you get in though but that is fine once you do. Dog will probably thank me too for having a minimum of 16 rather than more like 12 before.
I've got a similar set up with heat pump, PV and battery and currently on Octopus Go. It seems to be on track to my calculations so far but I've only had PV and battery since late October. I'm expecting at least a 50% saving over the year compared to gas and electric on Flexible Octopus and higher if I can use the summer surplus.
There's a new Octopus Flux Tariff that pays for export but with only three hours more expensive off peak but lower daytime and a lucrative evening peak export. It's complicated to compare but initially it's looking like a 60% saving (still need to debug the spreadsheet!).
One thing that I've realised - if you have an Eddie it might be worth disconnecting or using this differently. If you heat up your DHW cylinder with solar it will stop the heat pump heating the hot water that day. So the saving you make isn't offset against daytime peak but offset against off-peak tariff with a COP of 3 to 4 as opposed to 1 with an immersion heater. That makes the saving something like 12 to 16 times less compared to a daytime grid electricity expectation - and if you instead get paid 2/3 the day rate to export on Flux it's around an order of magnitude more cost effective to export rather than directly heat your DHW with a resistive heating element. On Octopus Go it still makes sense to use it as you don't get paid to export.
What would be better is to trigger your heat pump to boost to a higher temperature DHW when there's a PV surplus. It would come out of your already full battery and you'd need to stop boosting if the sun went in. Even that though only makes it COP times more efficient and then you are down to the tariff differences comparing night off-peak 20.4p/kWh import to 23p/kWh day export or the later peak 36.5p/kWh export if you can cope with draining the battery later. Anyways it's still better to export surplus with Flux it seems than heat DHW which is a surprise.
I’m still looking forward to playing around with my ASHP - installation delayed twice from last October due to parts shortages - hoping it might be delivered this month… If you decide to go for a heat pump - order early! All the quality vendors seem to have the same problem.
Hi Interesting stuff. We have Solar, Octopus GO Faster (01:30-06:30) , Eddi, Zappi but no battery ATM. We have set our heat pump on weather compensation and gradually tweaked it down from the installers settings because the house was getting too hot. Octopus settings were originally 50@-2ext/35@18ext but based on experience so far this winter we now have WD set to 50@-15/28@18ext. This seems to keep the house at around 20 deg so during the day we set the thermostat at 21 deg as a backstop but the house rarely gets to 21 deg. Basically we setback to 17 deg at 22:00 and back to 21 deg at 04:30 to make use of Go Faster. For DHW we heat up to 50deg using heat pump at 01:30 for an hour then top up for 30 mins using Eddi to get to 60 deg. If there is spare solar then that seems to work. Only once during the winter have we needed to top up during the day. This mode means we can charge the car during night as required. Set up in summer obviously will be different . We have about 4200kWh of solar per annum plus in November about another 4200kWh of Ripple 2 discount . This will go a long way to offsetting our overall usage but like you will have to wait until end of June before have full numbers. I am wondering if we bouight more Ripple that might be more cost effective than getting a battery but will be interested to hear your thoughts when you have your data in.PS we have achieved an average COP of 3.5 for heating and 2.4 for DHW since June so we have definitely saved money versus gas. Keep the videos coming 🙂
Another informative vid Andy for those thinking about the jump to ASHP. How have you found the transition to DHW tank with mains pressure as opposed to previous Combi ? Pros/Cons if any.
Pressure is about twice what it was. Flew out of the sink first time I used the hot tap.
The shower is way better.
Combi boilers don't give the best pressure/flow rate. We found a similar improvement when we got rid of combi for hot water and installed a Sunamp heat battery instead. Showers have better flow rate now. Plus, there's no 'cycling' of hot water as we used to have with the gas combi. Would not want to go back to gas.
Guess the only disadvantage is if someone takes a bath and empties the tank, it needs to be boosted using potentially more expensive electricity - we've always had a mains fed DHW tank heated mostly by PV in the past with a diverter, but not quite so much now with a battery system but the fall back is gas at the moment - in theory moving to ASHP would be a straightish swap for the gas boiler - I have had to tweak the timings however as my flow rates were closer to 65C and I have dropped to 55C to see how low I can comfortably go with the existing rads - so in turn everything needs to run longer to absorb the same amount of energy including the DHW
Gas boilers don't run flat out. They modulate their output to achieve the desired flow temperature. Ours for example can run anywhere between 4kw and 30kw. You could have a smaller gas boiler and run it all day at a flow temperature of 40C but you wouldn't really save by doing that. If your house is poorly insulated (our is and can't easily be improved) then it is probably better to heat just when you need it. Even at a flow temp of 65C when its close to 0C outside it takes about 3hrs to raise the indoor temp 5C. Old systems were designed around flow temps of 75C which is what we need to run in winter. If you can get your flow temp down to 55C then your boiler is in condensing mode and about 6% more efficient. Gas boilers are about as efficient as they can be so it only really matters how long its on for.
Heat pump efficiency varies widely but the bigger your heat emitters, the lower your flow temp and higher the efficiency.
I've taken a similar approach to our heat pump - a Mitsubishi ecodan.
I have the heating scheduled "on" between 08:00 - 21:00, and a setback temperature of 2 degrees less between 21:00 - 08:00.
Our water heating is slightly different, as ecodan's have an option to set it between a "standard" and "large" tank. From my understanding, the "standard" tank setting heats only about half the water in the tank and is a better option for smaller use households (like us), whereas the "large" option heats the full tank. I have this set to be "on" most of the day from 08:00 - 22:00 (target temp of 50, allows it to go down to 40 before it heats back up).
Unfortunately, we are on standard variable rate for our electric, so can't make use of cheaper rates at certain times. Also don't have solar (yet), but will be looking into that soon enough.
While the above kind of works for us, it has been an expensive winter, and the heat pump is the main cost. I'd love to figure out a better way of using the system, or be able to get on a good tariff with cheaper rate hours.
We do much the same, except the main difference being we have a Nissan Leaf, and a Setec 6kw unit running our ASHP all day long on cheap over night energy stored in the car. The hot water comes from a Sunamp, which charges up at night, and can be topped up using solar during the day or it can be used to run our Infrared Panels. Our December bill was £268 and Jan £222 which includes everything ASHP, Sunamp, House Battery, for our 1963 3 bed bungalow and and 2 EV's. Happy as Larry!!
I’ve used similar thinking in programming our ASHP except we don’t have a time of day tariff but we have a lot of solar panels so we programme ours to use the solar as much as we can. We have a 50 degree flow temperature and set back to 15 degrees I think at 11:30pm and then progressively step up to 17 degrees at 9am and then 18 degrees at 1pm and 19.5 degrees at 4pm. The house keeps the heat pretty well so we really only need the heat pump running at night but have to start it in late afternoon to get the temperature up to the right level. I’ve come to this progressive ramp-up after lots of fiddling and found its cheaper to run it this way than going straight to 20 degrees.
The hot water we heat up during the day when the solar is hopefully giving us free electric and rely on the tank full to get us through to the next night.
I did like your phone control of the ASHP, wish I had something similar for the LG system we have.
Thanks for this Andy. Hoping to go the same journey. The good news is 18 degrees is max for us in our house! Would be interested to know the size of your battery(ies), and how long they last during the day (in winter). We already have underfloor heating so it would interesting to know how we get a good balance.
We have been offered heat pumps by several companies but I'm not convinced the house is well enough insulated. I do something similar now to what you do with our gas boiler and hive. This winter I've had it set to 16 when out at work and at night, 18 in the morning for an hour and evenings and 17 during the weekend. I've used 25 percent less gas then last year when it was off all the time we weren't in. I realised this way of thinking when it took 8 hours the next day just to heat the house back up after a weekend away and if I leave it on all the time typically boiler on for about 2 to 3 hours. For a low flow temp under 60 I think you do need big efficient radiators and good insulation. With my current ones if less than 60 it can result in the heating being constantly on as the house fails to hit the target temperature in the colder weeks. In spring and autumn copes fine with low flow temp. This is a 1950s semi with cavity wall insulation but it is on the north east coast and gets hammered with cold winds. One problem I have is there is a massive difference between the front and back (north facing) of house that means that the lounge is nice and warm but other rooms are like 14 degrees. The vents on my windows even when shut cannot cope with high north winds. Also rust would be a massive problem. Anything metal in my garden rusts fast. Even the contacts in solar lights rust such is the salt content of the air.
Gas boilers are not magical devices, changing to a heat pump will not suddenly mean you need more insulation, the same amount of heat will escape. It may mean that you need bigger radiators than a well insulated house, but that is all.
@@Muppetkeeper you have a point there. My converted loft is the worst insulated room in the house. But with its 2 big radiators it heats up very fast even with lower flow temps set. I'm interested to see his costs. I've heard of great success and also failures where it's cost people a lot more.
I currently run mine using the “night boost” method as it’s the cheapest option with night rate electricity. However it’s not the most efficient way to run the heat pump. So you sacrifice COP for cheaper night rates. With a battery though, wouldn’t it make more sense to use as much battery as possible to run the heat pump in its most efficient way. Granted this depends on the size of your battery and heat pump etc
Hi Andy, it’s worth pointing out that heat pumps either heat water or heat radiators, and not both, so your hot water is automatically a priority over the heat, which is why you can schedule them both to be on during the peak period.
My hot water system has its own heat pump, and my split system air con are separate systems altogether, so I can run heating or cooling depending on the season and have hot water all at the same time.
It’s not really an issue In practice.
Just the same as a combi boiler.
I've have a Vaillant Arotherm 7plus ASHP that was fitted in September 2019. I live in a 1970's 4 bed detached house. I have solar and a PW2. This year I have been on Octopus Go Faster, 2:30 to 6:30. I too use the PW2 to shift off peak electricity into the day.
My heating is on from 02:30 to 22:30. My Hot water is 03:30 to 05:30. As I have a SunAmp, the flow temperature needs to be above 55C so my theis that at 02:30, the ASHP starts warming up the house, at 03:30, the flow temperature is increased to add heat to the SunAmp. When that is full, the flow then goes back to the radiators and that slug of hotter water boosts the heat into the house before flow temp settles back down.
For 2022, my total electricity bill was £374. That includes charging my EV too. I'll be interested in your figures.
PS, this winter, I balanced my radiators by ensuring that there was a 6-10C temperature drop across each one. This really helped get the heat where it was needed and made the house more comfortable.
I only have TRV's, but they are set to 19C for the bedrooms and 21C elsewhere.
Similar we are on old go faster with offpeak 2130-0130. At 2130 we bump the flow temp up +10. Tado has closed down bedrooms at this point so they don't overheat. At 11pm hot water comes on to 45C cylinder temp. Then continues to heat at +10 until 0130am where it's set back to weather comp temperature and thermostat at 18C until 5am (so normally doesn't come on at all). With UFH this generally keeps the temp downstairs above 20C.
Then heat pump then runs on weather comp all day. We may be in or out all day depending on work, but there's not much point trying to set back if we aren't there as the solar will often cover or reduce the costs during the day. If it's really bright I might boost the flow temps during the day to reduce evening demand.
Thanks for showing us how similar running a heat pump is to running a gas boiler.
The only issue I have is with your assumption about the 'bang bang' operation of gas boilers. For a few years we have had a Vaillant boiler that throttles back as the return temperature rises. Typically it runs at 5 kW after heating the house up. It only turns off if the room stat in the hall says it's too warm.
Gas combi boiler 12 year warranty….hot water on demand less than £2k installed. No further upgrades required 😊
Nice one Andy 👍🏻 just had a 12kw vaillant ashp fired up on Thursday with new & upgraded radiators! I'm on economy 7 & you've just comfirmed exactly how I was thinking of running mine!
How do you feel a year later?
Another good video explaining your set up, I like these because you're not just focused on EVs. It'll be interesting to see how much it costs or the KWh usage on a daily or weekly basis, if you've stated it in another video let me know I must have missed it cheers
I have a 190L heat pump hot water system and it uses about 2.5kwh per day (from solar) between 9am - 12pm to reheat the water, and I run it to 60C. It only drops to about 57C by the next morning. (Australia).
Very interesting thanks, we will use your set up as a start when we get our HP in January. I will also set my Tados up as monitors only. Will be most interested in how you have got on since
Very similar experience for us with our HP/Powerwall set up. Run it constantly at a steady 21 degrees...lovely as well as super cheap. We were paying £70 per month for all energy bills to run our 4 bed but the credit built up so much we've reduced to 50 and that includes running the car.
ASHP user here with UFH, lots of insulation (since 2009) and some PV (since 2017).
How many kWh of gas did you use before? And how many kWh of electricity does the heat pump use now? Might be worth doing a cost comparison.
I found benchmarks for gas usage by large detached modern houses and compared costs with ASHP - 20-25kwh PA. I’m saving around a grand a year even on current prices compared to these benchmarks.
ASHPs in 2008/9 we’e truly the Wild West. It’s been difficult at times but deffo worth it in the end.
Interesting stuff. I’ve done pretty much everything else (solar, batteries, EV, wood stove (sorry), insulation); been wary of heat pumps from a cost pov, so it’s interesting see how you are getting on with it. What size batteries do you use, as it must drain them quicker?
I took a different approach with my ASHP and it has now been running for just over a year. I also swapped to the Tesla Energy Plan so was setup to export as much as possible, so Hot Water and heating were looked after by the ASHP.
We used 3333kWh to heat our home to 18C which has been plenty warm enough with a jumper being worn. 19c was jumper on/off all the time.
We are at home most of the day and this is a 1972 detached house that had little to no cavity wall insulation as it had broken down. All rooms have Honeywell Evohome TRV's that ensure all rooms now reach the same temperature. We only drop the heating to 16c overnight as following information it is best to have a drop of only 2c for an ASHP. My ASHP also heats water when needed to maintain the cylinder temperature and I seem to have no control of this.
Cavity insulation has now been fixed and I seem to be using 20% to 30% less energy.
For context, what is the square footage of your house? I use 5500kwh for 2000sq ft
@@tonymellor7979 My home according to my EPC is 171sq metres or 1840sq feet
Well done Andy, almost word for word how we setup our installations here at VitoEnergy. I'm personally on Octopus GO, so in winter I load our hot water tank to the max at night. I also have some IFTTT automations that run both my hot water and heating via HA.
In the summer we get hot water for 3-4 months from free, as I have solar thermal, PV and MyEnergi diverter.
It seems from reading the comments , most people who can afford a heat pump also have solar panels and battery back up - so have invested maybe £20,000 in the system - just to replace a perfectly good gas boiler. With that sort of cost they might as well have put that money to gas and electric bills for 10 years and avoided the hassle of the installation. I bet all that cost will not be recovered if you sell the house and a HP might put people off buying!!
@@richardlewis5316 On our own house I've used second hand panels, built my own house battery from reclaimed cells and installed my heating 15 years ago heat pump ready. My gas boiler was used by another engineer for his house, he has now got a heat pump and the boiler has moved on again. My CO2 footprint is now 1/3 of what it was and is becoming less and less each years as the grid becomes greener.
Knowing you were on Octopus, and drive a Tesla, it didn't surprise me when you said 4 hours for night time electric that you're not on Intelligent Octopus. We've got it and it's amazing, don't need to faff around programming the car it just does it! even when it needs more than what my charger can do it goes outside of the 6 hour window and still only charges me 10p which is great! Good vid on the Heat Pump, that is on the (long) list of things to think about but just cost prohibitive for me at the minute, need to break out the man-maths 😃
Interesting video, could give an idea in your next video on installation cost and maintenance for the Air source pump with month by month from October to March on running cost. This would be helpful
Previous videos did the install cost.
I've had a heat pump installed as part of the ECO4 grant. We previously had electric radiators. I've the heating set to 19 during the day until 9:30 and then 16 the rest of the time.
My big worry is the installers suggesting it might cost a KW/h to run, which is 25p? But that's £6 a day for the entirety of Winter. When I had a boiler I'd put the heating on relatively low and leave it - but only when I needed it. Your costs presentation was really helpful, but still terrifyingly expensive. We're not sure if it's 'for us' so are loathe to invest in batteries (which we could take with us but it's all cost). Is it cheaper to add internal insulation? Triple glaze the windows?
Thank you for your videos. They're not the evangelical vs abomination presentations that so proliferate.
Great video! Very interested in your comments regarding using Tado TRVs to limit radiator temperature, presumably when using the heat pumps thermostat as your main controller and not Tado. Would be fab if you could explain how your system works in more detail. Thx!
Another top video 👍.
I have 12 kw’s of battery storage and am considering a heat pump myself. I’ve contacted the battery installers as I’m getting a ev with vehicle to load and I’m hoping they can rig something up so I can top the battery’s up from the car.
I don’t know if this is something you could do as well. Just a thought.
Presumably for those times you're coming back after being away for a few days you could actually bump the flow temp up to 60 for a few hours at less efficiency but get the house up to temp rapidly, then knock the temp back down to maintain?
Another good video, what does through surprise me is the amount of comments from people using Octopus Go. One of the issue with Go is the 4 hr cheap rate. British Gas do an EV rate for 5 hours at the same price 12p an hour. I have a similar set up to yourself but have 17.5 kwh of battery storage. It is rare that I ever pay at the peak rate but even without that amount of storage may would be able to make savings but having the additional hour of cheap rate. It also helps with the additional hour to charge the car.
Octo Intelligent is 6 hours and 10p. Most going onto that once the cheape Go expires.
@@ElectricVehicleMan It is is you have Tesla, JLR, Ford, Kia, Audi or BMW. If however you haven't got one of those Octopus will only allow you to use Octopus Go.
@@SimonFranklin-wr9yu Some chargers will allow it too.
@@ElectricVehicleMan Thanks for the reply. Unfortunately, as I have a Merc and a Zappi wall charger neither qualify for Intelligent which is why at the moment I use British Gas. Got to say though their app is very poor.
Hi,
Love the videos you do 😃
If you’re heating the water to 51.5 degrees, you run the risk of legionnaires disease. Water should be heated to no less than 55 degrees to stay safe. You might not be drinking it, but you are breathing it in in the shower. Hope you find this useful. Keep up the good work
Think that's just the CHW temp not the DHW temp
Heat pump systems typically go through a legionnaires cycle weekly or bi-weekly.
There are cycles it can do. However, legionella does within 2 hours at 50c.
It’s also not standing on a tank for days.
Never had a legionella cycle in 15 years with our system, but the regulations state once a fortnight is acceptable.
Legionella risk is overstated. It’s an issue for really big systems where the water circulates less. Hospitals and hotels. Less so for big houses. We still do a bit of a boost on Saturdays but it’s not something to worry about too much.
Cheer Andy, I was watching this trying to see if “Mr shouty angry man” could find anything to be angry about, I think that they will struggle.
Great video. We are moving to a new build soon which has heat pump installed. Due to the roof design solar would void our NHBC Warranty. Flat membrane roof near the coast- no ballasted solar array due to very strong winds. Do not want to penetrate roof so battery only. How does the battery perform running the heat pump? I realise it’s all down to system design and size but would you say it’s worth the initial investment if the right tariff is chosen? Only two of us for hot water and the build is eco design. Cheers Rich.
Very interested in the timings of your tariff - for us. Octopus Go’s cheap period was 12:30-04:30 which didn’t really work out, especially in winter, as the hot water wouldn’t stay hot by the time 7am showers rolled around. However, we’ve had MUCH better results with the recently released Octopus Cosy tariff as this allows us to have the heating running most at times when we’re actually doing things at home. We do have an EV, but with fairly low mileage the jump in cheap rate from 12p to 20p doesn’t have as much impact as it would for someone who has to charge their car a lot.
If your hot water isn't staying hot between 4.30 and 7am there's something seriously wrong with your system as even a a bog standard cheap hot water cylinder can keep water within 5 degrees for a few hours???
+1. I suspect that either tank insulation is rubbish or you’re using up all the hot water before 7.
@@MrButuz I'm speculating here, but it's possible that it's a small tank installed without a thermal trap (or depending on the type of thermal trap, one with a valve that's stuck open) and attached to un-insulated copper lines. If it's located down low in the hot water system and convecting the hot water up through the house's water lines, particularly if they're running close to poorly insulated outside walls, then the tank can cool down quite quickly even if the tank itself is well insulated.
Fascinated to know how you've got your tado's wired.
I'm really struggling with ours.
Another simple but fantastic video, thanks! Question: how long do you think it will be before 95% of this tweaking and optimising with time of day, flow temps etc, can be performed autonomously with “AI” control and learning? I say 95 rather than 100% because I expect fringe cases of manual control to exist even with AI.
Andy,
Would I be right in assuming that your export capacity is considerably less during the colder months than the summer (less use of ASHP and therefore more power available and an increase in solar potential). If so, do you switch tariffs to focus your need? For example, a tariff with lower rates/periods during the winter when you’ll need to take more from the grid (solar potential is less and ASHP added to mix) with less ability to export, then take advantage of a tariff with higher export rates in the summer when you have more excess energy? Or do you just keep to the same one throughout the year?
@@fauxlobster Same one. The EV uses more than the house ever will so that dictates the tariff more.
On a slightly tenuous link... I have a Citroen e Berlingo 22 plate which uses a heat pump. There is a little dial that shows the "thermal energy use" which appears to just move to a set point when the heat pump is running (and another for the AC). What I am wondering is whether the heat pump on the van can vary it's draw from the traction battery or if it is a simple on/off scenario. Am I better off running it at say, 22 degrees for 10 mins and then shutting it off for 10 or is it more efficient to run it continuously at 18? In today's 14 degree temperatures and the van set to 18 it seemed to run all day without much discernable heat coming from the vents so just trying to figure out if that is wasting energy.
We use the solar energie to heat up the house and the hot water in a second tank, with the heat pumpe bevor we send energie to the grid
I've ordered a heat pump, and I'm trying to size a battery, so was really hoping you'd give details of your heat pump size and how much energy it's actually using. Don't suppose you'd be happy to share preliminary data here ahead of the big reveal later? :)
What size house do you have, we are in a 3 bed 1950s semi, in the worst of winter we were up to 70-80 kw per days, thats the whole house, cooking, washing etc.
We are now in the 40-50 kw. It will continue to drop until summer. Min battery I would install would be 10kw.
@@allthingsrenewable9017 We've got a 5 bed 1930s with a weird layout. Which is worrying as it suggests we'd need even more than you - and yours sounds like a lot over winter.
My 1980s house up near Andy used 45kWh once, but it was -8°C. In reality you won’t be able to buy enough batteries or inverters to cover winter usage every day. The cheap period of power is typically 4 hours, so you’d need 12kW of charging power to fill 40kWh of batteries. I have settled for 18kWh of usable battery, and just deal with the “overage” for probably 60 days a year.
@@Muppetkeeper Yeah, I think I'm leaning towards getting around 20kWh of storage.
@@AndrewSmithThomas Make sure you check the max charging rate of your inverter. For example, I have a 5 hour cheap window at the moment, my charge rate averages 3.3kW, so 16.5kWh maximum, but batteries can’t go to 0% full (most are minimum 15% or so), so I have 19.8kWh of battery. Happy to discuss if you need any info, every battery bought is thousands of kWh of gas reduced.
Thanks for the video, it all makes good sense to me. It would be even better if you had an off peak period of 6 hours instead of 4!
Thank you. I am a bit surprised that you don't try to make more use of the cheap overnight juice. Do you have a froststat? If so, you could set it on a timer to increase the flow temperature in those four hours and set a higher temperature on the thermostat to get as much heat into the house as possible. That way, with your batteries, you might not have to run the heat pump at all until the afternoon.
The temp is higher.
You can’t change the flow temp on a timer.
@@ElectricVehicleMan We have a frost stat which increases the water temperature when it is very cold outside. This had a manual override function. We replaced this with a WiFi switch. As a result, we effectively have a timer on water temperature.
Interesting with the app. Our heat pump is over 11 years old and doesn't have one. It still works fine, but the app makes setting up much easier!
I had a Vaillant 11kWh ASHP installed mid Oct 2022 and on the heating I am achieving a COP of 4.0 and like your I have solar and battery, enabling me to disconnect the gas. My bills for Jan and Feb are approximately half of what they would be if I still had the gas boiler and no solar or battery. Similar to you I run the heating at 20 deg C. during the day but from 8pm until 6am I have the setback set to 14 deg C.
Hi Steven, what electricity tariff are you on? I have an identical setup but run mine as 17*C setback and 2 periods of 21*C with a standard £0.34p/kWh tariff.
@@seantaylor5957 I run the heating at 20 deg C from )6:00 until 20:00 then 16 deg C (Not 14 deg C. as I stated previously) The flow temp is set at 42 deg C and water temp 44 deg C. I am on Octopus Flexible Tarif 41.7 peak rate and 18.95 off peak (00:00 to 07:00). I have water heating on constant. I just checked the COP for heating is 4.1 and water 3.8
@@stevenbarton2398 Sounds like you have worked out a good system. I have a SMETS2 meter that has no communication WAN so I am currently restricted in the tariffs I can access. Ovo said they couldn't get the meter to work so I've switched to Octopus in a hope that they can. Seems nonsense with all the technology around that the only way anybody can communicate with a smart meter is via a radio signal!
@@seantaylor5957 I have got problems with my smart meter and have done now for about 6 months, I have moved over to Octopus in December but still have not solved the (not so smart) smart meter plus I have now been waiting 3 months to get my gas meter removed, which is costing me over £7 per month when I am not using any gas. I am reading my meter and sending through the readings every month.
@@stevenbarton2398 How do you manage to get a peak/off peak tariff when your smart meter doesn't work?
This confirms that a heat pump might be cheaper for those people that are in all day and need the heating on. However for people that go out to work everyday and they don't need the heating on, it won't be cheaper for them.
The guy has his sweatshirt on - must be quite cool in the house!
It's actualy because the outside part was done 2 days before the inside. Hoodie keeps continuity by wearing the same thing as outside. Watch the previous vide in december about temps in -10c weather.
Hi, how do you manage the heat pump during hot summer months. Do you set the thermostat very low and it never comes on except for heating the water. Thanks
Just turn the heating off.
Control is no different than a gas boiler.
Out of interest @EVM what is the temp of your hot water in the evenings? My hot water cylinder is in my garage (not very well insulated) and if I set it to 50c at 2am then it would be at 40c at 12 noon. So on an average warm day it heats up twice and in the depths of winter it is 3+ times. I've found out the tank has about 50mm PIR insulation so i've wrapped it in superquilt and managed to reduce the heatloss some more but it still not great.
What thermostat are you using so I can also purchase to use with my phone
Top video. Thanks. Best regards Martin
Would it be possible to try to reclaim some of the waste heat from showers, washing machine etc by running pipes through a storage tank your waste water would flow through? A few degrees of preheated water before the heating system even needs to do a thing could add up over the year.
There are heat recovery systems.
How does Tado react when room temperature is below it’s set temperature? But it’s request for heat is ignored because you are using Vailant controller.
It’s an interesting way of doing things, I hadn’t considered Tado TRV can be used like this.
So now, the most important thing to know about each room is how fast does the room cool from 22degrees to 17 degrees when it’s zero outside, the slower the better.
Hi, we moved into a new built flat with an air pump /underfloor heating. On my smart meter, in the morning, the reading is between £2.40 and £0.70 (majority higher price) Why? I find it very puzzling. Thanks
Nice,.... winter ending in March in Yorkshire.... ok then ;-)
From a data analytics POV I can get away with it.
@@ElectricVehicleMan lad, never cast a clout til May me out 😂
How many kw does yours use per hour to run? I have batteries , solar panels and inverter but only 3.6kw inverter. Just trying to do some calculations.
Do you use weather compensation I've been able to improve the efficiency using that
Spoke to a Vaillant engineer last week & he recommended a max hot water temperature of 49 deg
Is your flow temperature always 40C or is that the design flow temp at say -3C outside and it is less when it's warmer? Do you ahve weather compensation to control the flow temperature?
Hi Andy, really enjoying your feedback on how your heat pump is working. I may have missed this but did you have to change all your radiators when installing your heat pump? A supplier recently provided me with a quote for a heat pump that stipulated certain radiators within our house would have to change. Is that correct? We do have 2 or 3 smaller radiators but not in rooms that really matter in terms of heat. Many thanks
Prob best watching previous videos about my install.
Is it possible to just get the battery backup system, and use a electric car tariff to charge batteries to use during the day?
Love your stuff ... but this ones thumbnail does look a bit like ' EV Man , cutting shapes in the house of noise ' :) so I was expecting a dance routine :)
I just moved into my new house today and the water was set to 50 and the c1 was set to 45. Is the 45 too hot? I'm afraid of the bill that will come to me in January. My radiators are turned on half way and any room with a thermostat is set to 18. I'm on the second floor and I don't like things too warm.
Turn all thermostats up to full (apart from maybe bedrooms) and lower the flow temp to 40c and see if you're still comfortable enough.
Don't turn it off at night, just a lower set back temp by 3-4c.
How long do batteries last before you half to replace them.
Great info, thanks. Do you not have a solar diverter? Ie. Eddie to help prevent having to boost your hot water, or are you just diverting to the battery.
Eddi isn’t worth it with the battery. I’d rather use the electric to power the heat pump more at 300% efficiency + than the immersion at 99%.
@@ElectricVehicleMan that's what I thought, thanks for confirming
5:56 is the tortoise and the hare and we all know who won that race 😉
Once watched a handyman channel and he had dozens of comment's about heat pumps on the video. Best one was heat pumps don't work North of Cardiff.
What's your best anti heat pump comment?
great video mate
Thank you , very interesting
Should the flow temperature be 55 degrees to prevent Legionella risk?
No.
Legionella cycle is for your hot water tank and is required to run periodically , your flow temperature is only for the closed loop system that runs your rads or under floor , the 2 systems don’t mix.
Are you still using the Tado system with the ASHP? I was told its not a good option. I'm about to get an ASHP and would like to keep the Tado.
What did you go with? Our tado system doesn't seem amazing with our HP
@@datoon83 I’ve never got a HP in the end as it would have been a nightmare to fit. My house has microbore pipes which would need replacing.
I would like a Tepeo system but I’m waiting for them to be covered by the boiler replacement scheme grant. No idea why they aren’t and ASHP are.
@@jasonswann335 I've decided that Tado/smart thermostats are a waste of money - especially for a HP.
I have removed all my radiator heads and actuators from our UFH. Then balanced based upon how the rooms feel - this still needs some tweaking.
Our house is now much warmer all over and the HP isn't thrashing as much.
Thinking of the system as a whole is really important.
Been monitoring half hourly gas data for a while / heating load is basically zero for the off park (go) hours…
That makes a heat pump hot water solution feel very acheivable.
Greay info as always thanks
You are saying that you have not insulated your house for the heat pump...
What's your Epc and is it single brick, cavity, cavity and cavity insulation?
2006 house.
Andy,
Do you foresee you turning the HP off in the summer? HW excluded
Hi, as they are driven by thermostats, just like a gas boiler, you don’t have to turn them off, they just don’t come on.
Is there a manual settings option for the heat-pump system (similar to a conventional CH programmer) rather than having to use a smartphone and can the programming app be downloaded to and operated via a laptop or tablet. Very interesting video!
App only or you can use the thermostat.
www.vaillant.co.uk/homeowners/products/vaillant-sensocomfort-heating-control-71488.html
Brian, I have a Samsung ASHP with an app for the heating but also a touch panel by the hot water cylinder if I wanted to use it or lost my phone!
@@Chrisbond79 Thanks Chris. I hoped they might have such an alternative for those of us who don't have as smartphone.
@@ElectricVehicleMan Thank you EVM, it looks easier to operate than the Danfoss TP 9000 CH programmer that I currently struggle with for my gas CH system
@@Chrisbond79 What types of controls does the Samsung app give you?
I've lived all my life without heating 😀 (Los Angeles)
What heat pump controller are you using. Looks like a good interface
Just the vaillant one.
@@ElectricVehicleMan looks nice, Samsung don't seem to have a good equivalent
Forgot to select the right mic or mic facing the wrong way?
Didn’t work so had to use built in one.
Good vid glad it's working out for you. And that's key isnt it - it's working for you because of what you have. Heat pumps only make sense if you have solar, batteries, electric car tarrif etc. If your just average jo then a heatpump is gonna be a terrible hideously expensive idea. I think there's a lot of misselling going on in this industry and it could end up being like being missold PPI. 80% of people would be better off with a bog standard gas combi boiler.
Who’s misspelling though?
@@ElectricVehicleMan No one? Re read :p
True especially when there were those green incentives in 2020 we had multiple companies try and sell us one only for all visits to be cancelled due to lockdowns and never heard from them again. Insulation seems to be vitally important. And with something like a 1950s semi it's difficult. I can reduce our heat leakage but closing all windows, trickle vents but then get condensation problems. Open everything and have no issues but the temperature rapidly goes down when it's windy. So somehow need ventilation but without heat loss. More modern houses seem much better designed to cope with these things.
Gas went up much more than electricity this year. Probably makes it make more financial sense than previously.
But its not solely about running cost is it? Bigger picture….
Speed limit 😆
I have used a heat pump for over 20 years. Mine is forced air. I cannot compare heat pumps to gas or oil. But I will say my house is all electric, I have 2 EVs. And a 7.8 kw solar array. If I see a bill over $80. I am surprised.
Analogy: filling a bath with a bucket or a tap.
If you have a modern well insulated house you can keep you gas and electric bill below £100 a month so no need to consider heat pumps
Not needing gas, saving a few hundred a year and no standing charge either for gas once it's binned.
Plenty of reasons. Don't have to always financially justify themselves. No one asks that of a gas boiler, why with a HP?
Nothing will ever be more cost effective than central government building adequate infrastructure. If you pay tax, don't bother paying a further self-imposed tax to get this technology. Different if the government requests us to do it from a national grid load-balancing perspective, but with 8 new nuclear plants & a huge new cable to Morocco i can't see this happening. Will all depend on the agreed strike prices i suppose - time to do some research..!
You do not have a tank of hot water all day as the cold water cools the tank
Cold water doesn’t go in the tank.
Believe me, I’ve been living with it!
@@ElectricVehicleMan soo..EVM - you must be making all this up then, eh..!?
...as part of some sinister government plan to get everyone to install heat pumps which don't work.....
...oh no - what have I said ...now people are gonna believe that, aren't they.. !!!?
Curse you, social media!!
D'oh ....!!
As I understand...traditional immersion heater tanks refill with cold as the hot is extracted. Maybe EVM's tank only opens the inlet when he asks for it. Dunno, needs more detail about the tank please.
I believe the cylinders rely on stratification to keep the cold water at the bottom of the cylinder - far away from the hot water draw off point at the top. When the cylinder is heated the water rises as its heated. So drawing hot water doesn't cause it to run cold unless you draw more than the cylinder capacity (circa 180 litres in EVM's case).
This is what a PLUMBER said to me 😮. That’s why I’m looking for a HEATING ENGINEER. 😂
I am confused by the differing views on whether a HP should run 24/7 or be switched on when needed. If its running 24/7 to keep the ambient temperature of the house say 17% that is far too hot for the time when most are in bed so all the HP is doing is wasting energy. To heat up a well insulated house takes about an hour with a combi. As for the hot water I do not believe a HP could heat a 120 litre tank from cold to hot enough for a bath in 20 minutes especially if the heating was also required in the house. Having cylinder is such a retrograde step - and takes so much space.
Not 24/7, during the day.
And yes it will ‘re-fill’ the tank in as I said, 20-40 mins depending on how empty it was.
Like most gas boilers it will do either water or heating, not both together.
It’s not on permanently, it will run in pulses, 30-40mins at a time. Which is essentially ’always on’.
It only provides heat if the thermostat asks for it, it doesn’t just pump it out regardless. The key is to only put enough heat into a house to maintain what you want and keep lower the rad temp until it’s done.
@@ElectricVehicleMan Thanks for clearing up the meaning of '24/7' . One point which no one seems to actually say is what is the power consumption of a 7kw heat pump when it is running as this will show what it is costing when its on full. Is the 7kw the heat produced or the power being used? If its a COP of 3 would this mean it is using 2.3 kw to create the 7kw. ? Cheers
@@richardlewis5316 The rating is heat output, not consumption. Mine uses a max of 2.3kW which I’ve never seen.
A heat pump moves heat, not generates it, so it’s not as proportional as that.
@@ElectricVehicleMan 2.3kw when running so if its on 12 hours a day and in winter operating at full output for 60% this will be 7.2 x 2.3 = 16.56kwh used which at my EDF rate of 37/kw for electricity will cost about £6.12 per day or £220 per month including VAT. My current gas bill is £142 per month. Heat pump figures do not seem to show any savings and a very substantial installation cost as well.
@@richardlewis5316 You’re comparing actual figures with made up ones.
If you only need that much gas to heat your house then divide that by about 3 and transfer that into kWh.
The heat pump doesn’t run all the time!!
It runs when the thermostat says it needs more heat. Just like your gas boiler does.
If it’s hardly on then drop the flow temp until it pulses every 30 mins or so.
It will always use less energy than whatever your gas boiler does, otherwise your house would go above your requested temp.
I don't know who ’mark williams' is....but he wasn't watching this video ... !!
He’s banned now. A dozen posts every video! Guys a moron!
Never replied to anything people posted either. Don’t think he knows how RUclips works.