Gas Boilers No Longer Make Sense, Here Is Why.
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- Опубликовано: 12 авг 2023
- #heatpump #airsourceheatpump #vaillant
In this video, we are looking at a full renovation of a 4-bedroom house and the installation of a new super-efficient heating system with a Vaillant Arotherm Plus 7kW air source heat pump.
I also make an argument, that in renovated properties you would have to be mad to still install gas! 
Хобби
This video should be called "Gas boilers no longer make sense if installing an HP in a brand new, hugely insulated home with plenty of space for a plant room". Gas boilers still make a lot of sense for your average older home. Just my opinion.
Exactly what I was going comment. This guy knows his stuff and love some of his videos. But I can’t help but think he’s on the heat geek bandwagon and pushing his own little heat pump agenda
That is what I was thinking, how can you fit all that lot in an airing cupboard.
He actually made a video of a heat pump installation in a Victorian uninsulated house.
The one where he ruined it by sticking huge vertical steel rads all over the lovely period property 😂
@@jamiebrown8437 it'll be interesting to see if he does a follow-up video on that victorian property in the height of winter 🤔
I'm not a plumber/ engineer but I find this channel a MUST watch. I love watching craftspeople working at the top of their game. We are just about to do a 4 metre extension to our house and I'm in the process of trying to find someone of the same class to sort out the heat calculations/ loss needed - wish me luck!
Same here
The very best of luck, enthusiastic professionals such as these are very thin on the ground and obviously in high demand.
Choose carefully and wisely.
good luck, at least you can talk shop now!
Use the heat geak recommended installers, thats what i did and found a great engineer close by
@@duds2423 I approached a company that was Heat Geek approved specifically and got them to survey my home for Solar Panels. I thought there was a good chance that the layout meant there wasn't sufficient space for an effective installation. I thought the survey went well, the surveyor left making all the positive sounds. A month later I rang him for an update and see where the quotaton was. He gave me some BS about how he'd emailed me to say property wasn't suitable. Needless to say I didn't believe him. The point of this post is Heat Geek acreditation is no guarantee the company is any good if the people working there aren't honest.
That's all lovely, but the plant room alone looks about half the floor area of my entire house! I'd wish there was some integrated unit which reduced a lot of the external pipe work etc. and perhaps could sit outside, or in a garage. Even going back to having a water cylinder is problematic for those with small houses.
Yes, this is going to be a problem for lots of people, in the real world modern houses don't seem to have much spare room and lots of older houses aren't properly insulated.
All that ‘stuff’ compared to a combi in a kitchen cupboard lol
The internals can be fitted into much smaller spaces than that.
A pre plumbed cylinder would sit in the corner of a garage. The biggest issue would be for 2 up, 2 downs with very little cupboard space. Flats etc will need to move to district heating assuming we are all coming off gas.
Even in larger homes, a larger plant room vs an extra/larger storage-/bath-/bedroom/kitchen is a hard sell. This is the main reason I went with an oversized combiboiler last year: sure I have the space to put a seperate hot water cylinder and it would have multiple advantages in my home, but I happily waste a few Euro's of gas and water each month in order to have a larger kitchen with more storage for dry and frozen food so I don't have to drive my car to the supermarket as often and don't have to think about how much room I have in my freezer and pantry.
The low-and-slow character of a heatpump is perfect for heating a well insulated home in mild climates, and can be compact (monoblock outside, flow/return from radiator to radiator), but I think it doesn't make sense for hot water production.
I just installed a new gas boiler. I cant afford a air source heat pump as it requires me to first insulate all my external walls from the outside, get new doors and windows and add floor insulation . It’s just not viable for most people here in the UK.
Yes, I was told this updated insulation is necessary to be done first to my 1940 house. The heat pump installation alone with grant was a quote for £6000, but it’s £2000 for a good new gas boiler swap. Maybe in a few years it will be affordable , but not at the moment.
@@Greguk444 One of Urban Plumber's recent videos was about an installation in a Victorian house with solid brick walls. I don't think they added wall insulation and it seemed to work perfectly well. I get the same comments whenever I discuss the idea of having a heat pump in my house (part 200 year old cob/stone, part 25 year old extensions with fairly paltry cavity insulation), but we already have a wet underfloor heating system driven by a 6kW electric flow boiler with flows temps of around 38-40C (already here when we bought it, and no options for anything other than electric owing to various logistical reasons I won't go into). The only difference with a heat pump would be I'd use less power for the same heating effect I have now, which is fine. Granted, I have improved the windows since they were utter junk, but I'd have done that no matter what. The bigger issue, at least for me and also for many others where a pump might work, is as someone else commented: The space required for the tank etc, and the running of pipes to it. I expect one day I will have a heat pump, but I am rather hoping that advances might make the space required less of an issue, but that's probably wishful thinking on my part.
@@stevepettifer4896 Even if I ignored the insulation recommendation, I still have the cost issue. I have not had a quote under £6000, including the grant, most were more and most wanted me to replace my radiators which I am not convinced need replacing as they are double layer type 22. It seems inevitably that I will have to get a heat pump eventually but I don’t think I will do it now as it is so much cheaper to swap out my old combo heater for a new gas version. Also, I just cannot see where I could put the tank and control equipment in my small house. Thank you for your comments.
All this business about heat pumps 'requiring' external wall insulation is misleading. Just as with a gas boiler you can always install a higher-rated boiler to cope with heat loss, you can do the same with heat pumps: but you'll need a bigger installation, which will cost more and will almost certainly run at lower efficiency too, putting running costs up further. It's just the usual question of compromising on costs here versus costs there.
@@Greguk444 yes, true, it is the cost of the system installation that gets most people. I have seen complete heat pump kits (7kW with tank etc) for under £4k, but usually seems to be the labour costs in most cases that really pushes things up. For the moment, installing a heat pump when you are not doing a full refurb is something you have to want to do in the full knowledge that it's possible you will not really recover the costs. The running costs can be made to be on par or even sometimes less than a gas system, but the most people can't see past the capital cost, or of those who can, it's simply out of reach. I hope this will change in time, but for now I suppose we are where we are.
It all depends . We live in a rural area in a 1840's detached house that is not to big but has high ceilings . We have had 3 prices for air source heat pumps they range from £27 k to £32 k . before any insulation up grades . We have no spare internal space for the plant to go and the wall space
available in most rooms do not have space for the upgraded radiators. All of the projected running costs are only just marginally below what we spend all ready and will likely be more as the tariffs they have used in the calculations are not available to use. The prices for replacing our 25 year old boiler are from £3.5k to £4.6 k . If you add on the the fact that the ASHP has to be paid up front and the government £5k is not available if your EPC is as lower as ours its just not worth bothering with . ASHP are an answer but the answer to the 1.4 million oil boilers .
£32k. Unless your house is bigger than you’re letting on that’s just a scam. Mind you, so is £27k. £5-6k of that is just VAT! I’d be that fuming I wouldn’t need a heating system.
zero vat on renewables tough. Some period properties will be expensive to install, expecially if high efficiency is required.
The truth at last these ASHP muppets are just taking your life savings for a dream that for most homes will NEVER work.
Agree with you on this. I have put in all the insulation I can (there was none in my loft in 2021!) and replaced an old gas boiler with new. With the much more efficient boiler (95% compared with about 70%) and insulation, I have got the consumption down to about half what it was.
@@jonh1808 he prices all include VAT . But did not include the 5 windows that would need to be double glazed and the extra roof insulation. All of the quotes said we needed the biggest available pump and we checked all the calculations using industry figures. The money was in the considerable work needed to the existing plumbing and building a place for the tank and plant to go . So I do not think we were scammed at all. High ceilings really throw the calculations out.
That pipework and installation is a work of art. :)
thank you :)
I am very impressed by such professional work, the plumbing, knowledge and experience. Well done.
thank you for watching!
I'm prepaired to bet that this man has an extemely high IQ. I have never seen such proffesionalism in this field. His work looks so clean.
He’s definitely over qualified for a uk heat engineer. Maybe it’s different in other countries
@@immers2410he actually is an engineer, most UK plumbers can’t even be arsed to do any calcs they just chuck something on the wall and then charge you more money later to install the right size radiator.
It doesn't require a genius intellect to install a heat pump system. He's just a plumber, with pride in his work, and eye for detail.
@@hvacdesignsolutions there are a lot of variables involved in designing and implementing a system that runs at optimum efficiency
It is not rocket science. All you need is to measure all walls, windows etc, apply the correct U values and stick it into a standard app. As far as radiator upgrades are concerned it is usually a case of changing from single panel to double panel and increasing the number of convectors rather than any increase in wall area.@@edc1569
Im not a plumber but I haveworked on building sites, im prettysure that floor joists should not be notched to accomodate that pipework, will it not seriosly weaken the floor?
On a large renovation like this you are absolutely right, if it's cost neutral then HP is a no brainer. Gas is only going to get more expensive and there is a strong impetus on government now to bring down the cost of electricity. The bigger issue is the replacement market where a new gas boiler is often a distress purchase (after failure) which householders are therefore looking to do quickly at the minimum cost. Sorting out radiators and insulation then becomes something they don't want to think about even if it makes sense in the long run. IMO the government therefore needs to put a strong focus on making all homes 'heat pump ready' and unfortunately the incessant lobbying for hydrogen by the gas industry has made this very difficult.
Thanks for the upload. Great video. Looking forward to your next one.
That will be £30k please, how do you retro fit to a normal house with no space for a plant room.
Another very impressive install. I’d love to see a follow up video to understand the real world efficiencies after the heating season.
I will definetly be done!
On our deep renovation the first thing I did was call the plumber to cap the gas, a month later the meter got removed. Easy for me then with a house full of dead pipework to rip out. Had our heat pump fitted last month partway through renovation, really appreciate all your insights watching your videos this past year.
Thank you for your support!
Wait until January................
@@philipharris5201 i know what I'm doing big man, appreciate the concern though, enjoy your boiler
I’ve watched a lot of your videos and you do a brilliant job, however there are not enough installers yet and certainly not many who fully understand the installation. My two bed property was going to cost 25k for HP, rads, solar and battery, at my age it was a no brainer to install a new combi and some rads for 2K. Now only if I was 25 years younger 👍
Completely agree with you, my property is heat pump ready. But for some reason I'm still being quoted £5k for the install that is including £7.5k gov grant. £12.5k seem steep, especially as I don't need any new radiators, or pipework upgraded.
@@Pav_1983 You are ripped off in UK and many western countries. I've installed a 6kW monoblock unit from Gree that was bought from Spain and shipped to Romania, where I live, with 2.600 EUR. No boiler was installed, DHW is still the job of the gas boiler. Last winter I've used only the heat pump for heating and the cost was 357EUR for the season (winters are harsher here then UK i think). With gas would have cost me 632 EUR. Using heating at 24°C inside from October until May for a 135 sqm house, but it's well insulated.
This year I managed to install through a government grant a 7,3 kWp solar system with 4.000 EUR so obviously from now will be cheaper.
Yet again watching your work with properly designed and installed system the case for going with a heat pump gets stronger, very interesting indeed, I already have PV on the FiT but upgrading this system as well with the heat pump makes good sense
Thank you for watching!
ASHPs are like EVs, they won’t suit everyone.
@@UrbanPlumbers Never miss your presentations
@@kevinmills5293 This is true but if you do your homework first and carefully for what you want to achieve or even if it’s positive for your application and select the right people to do the job then there is not really a problem
your pipe layout is a work of art, great job as usual
Looks great. I agree about the cost on a big complete renovation like that, no brainer. But for the average home when the boiler is end of life its a more complicated question. Also for someone like myself thats a geeky DIYer (i'm doing a full house renovation, so far prob 95% on my own) that wants to do most of it themselves the grant and the vat thing is not much help :-/. Interested in the cooling idea the customer is going for, be interested to see what that looks like if the customer will let you film it. Anyway, great video. Thanks.
Maybe you can find a friendly plumber who will order in the rads for you, they tend to get discounts anyway so you might both benefit
If you're interested in cooling as well as heating, have you considered a heatpump AC system (HPAC)? Simple and cheap to install but weirdly, no grant available. Ours has a CoP of 5 and is so cheap to run as it is easy to direct the heat. We run the system on Octopus Go battery stored electricity@7.5p/kWh plus solar. We've retained our boiler for now to provide hot water for showers.
I enjoy your videos. Would really like to install ASHP plus solar panels in the renovation property I am buying. Did your client dig out the concrete floor in the existing part of the house for the UFH?
Any recommendations if you don’t have space for a “plant room”. Genuinely interested in one of these for our two-bed maisonette, but a combi boiler takes up no space at all, whereas it seems these need a lot more space (both inside and outside) for an equivalent system?
What space do you have? Do you have an airing cupboard? A loft?
@@pumpkinhead456 There was formerly an airing cupboard that now has a washing machine and tumble dryer stacked where the old hot water cylinder used to stand. But it’s only just big enough for those two and has no external walls, so even if it wasn’t full, I’m not sure it would be suitable. The only other place is a coat cupboard on the 1st floor, but that’s even smaller. We’d also have to get permission to hang a unit on the outside wall (which is currently prohibited in our block). I’m just not sure these are a good alternative to a combi boiler in small flats / apartments (as much as I’d like them to be)…
Total install costs after grants may be still very high compared with a gas system. Maintenance and servicing costs also need to be compared as does the life expectancy of the main piece of kit. If a house is well ventilated and has heat recovery systems the actual heat input should be very little. In fact I remember an experimental house being constructed 45 years ago to a low budget. It had thick insulation, treble glazing and heat recovery. The only heat producing appliance was a gas fire in the living room which only needed to be switched on for a couple of hours a day!
Im not sure how you get comfort with a gas fire in one room.
The target is passive heating (was planned for building regs before the govt pulled it...). Most houses have a total of around 4MWh/y of heating from electrical appliances (it all ends up as heat) and occupants. This CAN be enough to keep the house warm, with the appropriate insulation and air control as you mention. The complex water systems as shown in this video play no part in this- it is all about air management. Imagine the cost and complexity of keeping such legacy systems running...
@@edc1569 Hi, it worked by the heat recovery system drawing it via ventilation to other parts of the house, then the heat is recovered and re-introduced with the fresh air coming in. The high insulation levels do the rest.
Extreme insulation isn't necessarily a great idea anyway. A lot of these modern materials are made of many materials that might not be that great to your health to breath in all the time.
@@chunkymonkey55555 And why would the air you breathe pass anywhere near the house insulation? Passive heating (the ultimate goal) requires active control of air change. This involves (as a minimum) a heat exchanger between incoming and exhaust air. This controls the flow of air within the building, which is otherwise sealed. Moisture and dust control of this air is an obvious addition. None of this is part of the crude A2W2A system in this video. This will form part of the dated and expensive redundant systems we are so keen to install in this country.
Now lets look at a normal 3 bed semi with an old boiler. These high end projects don’t reflect the majority UK housing stock.
he did a bungalow project, you seen that one?
And a regular Victorian terrace as well, plus ex council one too. Check my other videos
I see on many projects UFH on ground floor and radiators upstairs. Is there any disadvantage of doing UFH upstairs as well?
I have a similar set up on underfloor heating but with out heat pump, i have hot water boiler, my undefloor heating doesnt warm properly, i have noticed the expansion is only at 1 bar, is that enough ?
I live in a semi-detached 3 bed house that is on an estate that was built in the early 1930s. So, any quote that includes a complete CH replacement, redecoration, storage of furniture ect, and accommodation for the duration of the project, and can be achieved for £5000, we're in.
That's going to be such a high performing system! Top work as always 👏. What's the KW rating of the unit you fitted? It looks like a 5kW unit? You should do a follow up video to document the performance and how well cooling works. I think the option for cooling could be a great selling point for a ASHP. What made you go for a Vaillant cylinder? It looks like the Telford HP cylinders have a larger coil and slightly lower cost.
After the oil crisis of the 1970`s in rural areas straw burner was the rage my cousin built wood framed house house installed the strawburner in the garage he had to abadon his house one night and call the fire brigade luckily thay saved his house but gave them all a scare
Totally agree, why install gas when as you rightly say the difference is so small and the feel good of doing something towards cutting emissions. As for running cost I suspect with those cops it’s cheaper to run and way more comfortable.. As a retired plumber / Heating installer may I say your workmanship is first class.
Really instructive: Thank you :-)
Hi Michael, thank you for watching.
Another quality install (and video) as usual Szymon. Much as I'm loathed to admit it, I agree, gas is mad, ASHPs are the future - for many, if not most properties.
Prices will reduce over time, & due to cutting-edge installers like yourself, effeciencies are getting better and better ready for when old-timers like me eventually break into the renrewables arena.
Looks like I'll have to change my name, planned ahead & already own LondonASHP domain.
Thank you Gary. Hope all is well with you!
Buying that domain was smart.
Great video, thanks as always 👍 Fully agree with what you say regarding the installation of gas boilers especially on a project like this one.
Your pipework is a work of art. How easy will it be to maintain the system and will it need an annual service. Will fault finding be more difficult than in a gas combi boiler system?
We have a Dimplex air to water heat pump for underfloor heating and then we ran a line up to our top floor attic for a water to air fan coil. It provides perfect air conditioning in the summer and is honestly one of the best reasons to use air to water heat pumps. They do perfect radiant heating and very good cooling, there are also smaller convector radiators from Jaga that are installed like radiators and provide decent room by room cooling. A technician like yourself should look into this as more people request aircon in your market.
You can also add solar and batteries to your house when you have a heat pump and run it on that energy instead of grid energy, can't do that with a gas boiler :)
More added costs though. It is not cheap to add solar panels and batteries
Problem is in the UK, solar output is inverse of heating requirements
@@ctid107 Ally PV and batteries with a Time of Use electricity tariff and you have an absolute no-brainer. In winter charge the batteries with super cheap electricity and then run the house during the day from them. In summer, PV will charge the batteries, run the house and heat the DHW.
I have 2 x BEVs, air-to-air HP that does cooling in summer and heating in winter in some rooms. I also have a legazcy gas boiler for some heating and DHW in winter. PV and batteries have halved my electricity costs and slashed my gas bill.
Why ever not? You could easily run a gas boiler from solar electric, it only take a hundred watts or so for hot water and similar on top for the pump when the heating is on.
Solar will not produce much energy during the winter. A heat pump has to be on for something like 18 hours a day in the depths of winter. It will use something like 50kwh per day. A battery will not be of much use in such conditions. I know because I have a ground source heat pump and solar panels.
Very nice install. Like yourself, I really hate the “what is the payback” question.
Great to watch your videos, very interesting with the details you share. Please keep it up 👍
always a pleasure to see the level of craftsmanship, nice one again.
thank you!
Great work and professional, but an install like that I’m guessing is about 10 - 20k. Well out of the price range for most people regardless of grant.
I also agree that ROI is a useless way of looking at it. What is the ROI in having a nice garden double glazing, a new roof, these are simply investments made into your property for comfort, security and aesthetics.
What is the recommended max length of pipe to the external unit?
Hi. What type RCD are you guys using on the consumer unit for the heat pump..??
Type C
@@UrbanPlumbersis that type C MCB. What about RCD . Cheers
Yes that chilled water will be %100 air conditioning.
You will simply need an Air handling unit to transfer the rooms heat back to the water for it to return to your outdoor unit where it will run in cooling mode (reverse cycle) to reject the heat to outside via refrigeration cycle.
Then the chilled water heads back upstairs.
HEATPUMP = reverse cycle air conditioning normally.
Just another true advantage of replacing the old boiler
Not true air conditioning as no control on humidity but why not take advantage of the four way valve, I've done this to my house and I had a problem with very low humidity
@@MG-qo5ge The fan coil unit if set to a low enough flow temperature should bring some humidity out of the air, although the floor temperature's must be kept in check otherwise there'd be condensation on the floor and it would become uncomfortable. I'm not sure if its possible to have 2 different flow temps like that.
This will depend on the due point. The chilled water temperature will have to be above that point to reduce the dehumidification effect and the under floor temperature has to be controlled possibly through the 0-10v proportional signal serving a 3 port valve This does bring in cost and complexity considerations and also if it goes wrong try to find someone outside the industrial fraternity ....good luck @@MichaelFlatman
Hi Urban Plumbers, as always a really neat install and informative video. Please let us know what the installation cost is for this install, and also going forward the costing for your other installs please. I understand and agree we need to look forward regarding green energy measures to our homes ( which I have done with my existing 1950's property which is now EPC A) .
Actually with no one in the property during the install ( luckily so when the tank is faulty and caused significant delay, which if you where installing in an existing property would be unacceptable for someone living in a property at the time) and with retrofit wall, floor and roof insulation it is possible to produce an energy efficient building.
The problem comes with retrofit to existing housing stock in the UK, which is generally old and poorly insulated. The upgrade costs for a typical Victorian or Edwardian property are very high before the installation of an air source heat pump system. The typical install costs for an air heat source system including larger radiators etc is as per government figure £12K to £18K which is substantially more than a high efficiency boiler and Radiators. This figure plus any mitigation to the existing EPC value of a property make it very unlikely that those who could really do with benefiting the most would never be able to afford to install an air source heat pump.
@urbanplumbers can I have air con alongside the air pump? Thanks
Can the heat pump be installed in a 1st floor flat that has a boiler cupboard large enough for a tank? Can the external unit be suspended by bracket on wall?
Gas boilers are awesome, 50 years of usage is not wrong…….however I do like this installation, but it is a rich persons game.
Great video but yet again, these heat pumps are only suitable in a new build situation where all of the insulation and pupework are built in to there latest standards Totally irrelevant to most of the existing housing stock in the UK unless major uplift is also included.
not true, i have a number of videos on my channel showing installation of heat pumps in period, uninsulated hosues, that not only are cheaper to run than gas boilers, but also provide much better comfort.
@@UrbanPlumbers for example, my house has roof insulation and double glazing. I attempted to run the boiler flow temp at 55C. the result was the house didn't reach desired temp in any sensible time on a cold day. I have cavity brick construction. It would appear that for most of the existing housing stock, these low flow temps are useless unless a much larger investment is made in insulation, radiator sizes and in some cases, pipework.
@@michaelhughes7706 radiators definitely, pipework only if it won’t support the required flow of water. Central heating is pumped so it isn’t so much if a problem, but the pipework still needs to be correct. Otherwise, get the rads sized properly and it’ll work fine.
@@jonh1808 yes but nuch larger radiators along with the insulation requirements is a significant budget uplift which for most of the UK housing stock would require. Comparing a simple heat pump installation with a gas boiler in anything other than a new build is usually nonsense.
@@UrbanPlumbershi yeah I’m gonna put 35 mil pipework all over your 60m2 terrace btw hope you have a yard and your kids don’t like playing outside cos that’s where the HP is going… PS you know that 1 cupboard you have? Cylinder cupboard now mate.
Thanks for the video, we are about to do a renovation of a similar size and want a heat pump installed but am trying to work out where we would put it. How much space would I need on the side of my house. I would like it to go next to our garage without disturbing the neighbours!
Is it alot more expensive to use that matting . Have you done the calls and do you fit close coupled tees .at the manifold .
Why would you fit CCT on a heat pump???!!
Just top ! I agree with everything, i’m 23 years install business and i constantly crash in people who calculate cash back of heat pump driving a 90.000,00€ car 😂😂😂😂
thank you! makes no sesne does it?
Yes no sense … when you tell to the people truth they are accepting it as a lie 😂
This i do not agree with. 95% of people can just about afford to pay the mortgage and food on there table and many houses in the UK need to be properly insulated before installing a heat pump.
To make use of a heat pump you also most likely need to upgrade your existing radiators for larger ones and ideally install solar panels with a batter(again more costs)
@@jonneymendoza well if you are going to quote stats….less than 40% of people have a mortgage
@@chriss4949 I'm talking about people who have a mortgage ie own there own property.
Not sure what your point is regarding my post about costs for insulation and solar panels.
With Solar Pv panels yes its a no brainer, without them.... electricity is 3x the cost of gas. I have anecdotal stories of high running costs I'm sure you'd disagree with but my point is the argument is a lot closer call.
We need cheaper more efficient panels, more installers and cheaper electricty. The future has started but its not quite there yet. Same with electric cars and vans
this system will run at scops of 4.5 or higher though, so even without PV it will still be much cheaper to run than gas.
Whats the installation cost for one house all in? The builders I work for are very concerned about the costs. They fight me on pipe sizing all the time. The scops impressive and I'm moving away from working for builders full stop.
Yeah, builders are a nightmare in this country
It’s not just solar panels you need. First gotta look at your properties insulation. Does it have cavity walls? 150mm insulation on the roof? 100mm insulation underneath your floorboards?
Double glazing windows? Sufficient sized radiators? A place to store he hot water cylinder?😊
There are no shortage of forums/blogs with people discussing the relative merits of their own heat pumps, from a real world cost point of view. It’s never more than a 50/50 split between people who are happy and people who wish they’d never touched them, running costs being the single biggest problem. Some will have been poorly installed, and some incorrectly sized, but equally, a lot of people who were reasonably happy were off grid and dependent on oil/LPG with all the messing around and extra cost involved.
I'm in a 1st and second floor maisonette. Currently have a gas system boiler and megaflo tank. Can the heatpump be installed on the side wall of the 1st floor?
Yes, it has been done. Especially with new units, that have almsot no vibration or noise.
Here here on your return on investment rant! Great install and love the details. Thanks.
There is ONE huge issue that is overlooked when talking about all this ASHP stuff. That is, electricity supply. We were threatened with rolling blackouts last winter which would mean a cold house if you did everything with electricity. Having a gas boiler gives you a backup option (called diversification redundancy in tech speak). So for that reason alone I wont ditch my gas boiler or cooker any time soon. Niec to have options.
I'm not sure about your gas boiler, but mine won't work if there's no electricity..
Same point with EVs, where people say: but I can still get gasoline if the power grid goes down! Nope, because the pumps and payment systems won't function..
@@trashmail8 get a small ups or generator - a boiler only uses like 60w running
@@mattsan70That’s what I’ve done 👍
Even if the power was out for 3 hours most houses aren't going to lose enough heat to be a problem. And with those, it makes the fabric upgrades all the more worthwhile doing to keep the existing heat in. UPSes are designed for keeping things running for a short period of time to enable someone to turn them off if power isn't due back on within the timeframe needed, not for sustained use.
@@BenIsInSweden That’s very true, I’d only need to use it in exceptional circumstances anyway as my home is well insulated and stays warm for a long time after the heating goes off. The main reason I purchased my power bank is so I can have light and other essentials if/when we have power cuts during winter which were predicted. Also use it when I go camping in remote places so it was bought for multiple purposes.
Let me see, 2-3k for a gas boiler replacement, or 20k for a heat pump, for the vast majority it’s still a no brainier.
The upstairs AC loop to the ducted system will also provide dehumidification. What outdoor design temperatures do you use for the heat loss and heat gain load calculations?
Another great video, thanks :)
Yes here we have a typical normal home as usual funking unbelievable.
Total Bollox I've been installing gas boilers for 40 years and they have never been so reliable and Efficient and gas at the moment is half the price of electricity,a modern gas boiler will heat your home and hot water far more efficiently than a heat pump and having worked on heat pumps on repairs both expensive to repair and loads of complaints from customers on efficiency,heat output and very expensive to run.
“More efficient” “gas is half the price of electricity” - you have zero idea what you’re talking about, lmao. You literally proved that gas is worse, a decent heat pump is 4x more efficient than a gas boiler so if gas was half the price it would be 2x the running cost, hahahaha
@@Etacovda63doesn’t matter what imagined efficiencies are when electricity is so much more expensive. I have refitted my CH and sized everything for low flow temperature, I can run the boiler hot for a short while to warm the place up then let it run at low temperature after that. Very very efficient. You’re ASHP will never compete, if for no other reason than the exorbitant cost of installing them wipes out your mythical savings.
And as I’ve posted elsewhere on here, Mitsubishi charge a minimum of £36pm to cover their heat pumps, and nothing else, which suggests they aren’t expecting them to be cheap to maintain either. You’re welcome to them.
I mean if gas did cost half the price of electricity it would be a no brainer for the heat pump.
Can you please share how you do mass flow rate calculations for an underfloor heating install to calculate pipe size? Thanks for sharing!
I love your videos and learn so much from them, thank you so much for all your work on them. A couple of things: have you considered the ‘Vaillant Mono HP connect kit straight pipe’ kit, consisting of a pair of stainless steel corrugated pipes, which can go straight through the wall and which I used successfully on a recent job. I’d like to have one longer and one shorter one to accommodate the antifreeze valve, but that a refinement. Also.. for the isolator I have started taking the tail leading to the heat pump back through the wall and then down internally if possibly and then out at a point close to the pipes which keeps it neater and all cables invisible. Looking forward to learning why the flow rate was so low on your rescue job!
I use regular angled flexi hoses and cut them to size required and straighten the ends to make them straight if needed
Sounds interesting but I don’t understand how you do that. I’ve tried chopping flexihoses down but don’t know how to terminate them after I have done so. Possibly something for a video of tricks of the trade some time? Thanks for the reply.
Video about it coming soon
wait for electricity prices to jump 400% ... soon ....
the idiocy of government ideas is never ending .. diesel cars ... etc DO the opposite of what government advises every time is my advice ... 👍
And Gas will stay the same? An increase in electricity prices will just drive more solar PV and batteries being installed because it will make it an even more worthwhile investment.
@@BenIsInSwedenYou don't understand. They are CRIPPLING the grid with changing to electric everywhere.
In Belgiums they already officially announce possibility of blackouts.
In case of a bad winter the power WILL go out.
On purpose. Because they sold and decomissioned, disinvested, phased out the nuclear plants.
And try to create new gas power plants to make up for it.
You don't want to have a bad winter and rely on a heat pump that can't get a decent COP to then have the power go out completely.
If I had a heat pump I would have a wood stove just to make sure.
Then it's ok I guess.
I think having wood fuel stove backup is essential regardless.
@@BenIsInSweden yes gas will probably get relatively cheaper
Shale gas coming soon
@@the1beard You mean Fracking that Liz Truss lifted the moratorium on in her short term and that Rishi swiftly recommitted to it? I'll file that under the same folder as Hydrogen for heating homes. The problem is even if electricity does jump by 400%, gas would need to rise by 100% or less in the same period to maintain how things stand today with regard to HP vs Boiler running costs. I don't see that happening.
So true! But we eill get shafted any ways!
Looks amazing!
Love your content.
What size HP for this project?
7kw
Excellent - as always. Are you going to follow up for SCOP and user experiences?
Sure I am!
Interesting project. Love the torque wrench. Would rather have a professional do my plumbing, but want one anyway!
Another excellent Video. Good to meet you in Fleet SF today!
Nice to meet you Peter
Why do you use copper instead of maybe the Geberit Flowfit system?
Id love to know more details about the cooling setup. Is the heat exchanger used for cooling running at the same temperature as the undefloor heating?
I was looking at the Zehnder comfopost water to air heat exchanger attached to an MVHR , which can do 2.26kw of sensible cooling from 5.6kw cooling power from the heat pump. The rest is basically dehumidifying the air, ao is not totally wasted. That's based on feeding 7 degree water with 600m^3/hr of 27degree airflow. Can underfloor pipes be cooled that low? And if this system runs from 18 degree water, it must have a very high air flow.
Im thinking that would take the edge off the heat in my 160sqm terrace, but I'd probably still need to supplement it with a couple of fan coils in the warmest rooms.
vidoe to follow once it is set up and running.
So i have similar plan to do in my new house now since i still didn't do any consultation with Vaillant i was wondering how the system will work with solar panels, so heat pump, solar panels i was thinking to put massive buffer tank probably 1000L one twin coil and everything feed from that, since we have plenty of sun here where i live but very cold winters - 15c
Great video, just wondering what size is the circulator in the heat pump as in the standard size they supply, 6 meter head pump or larger. I see in past videos your calculations allow you to run the system on one circulating pump in the heat pump and remove the extra pumps on the system. This is very impressive and just highlights the importance of overall design and low flow temperature yet still reaching the correct flow rates through out the system. Well your videos and information have convinced me the Heat pumps in the right build are the way to go. Great work, Thanks for posting, I look forward to your future content
the circulator in this unit has a residual head of around 4m at 1.4m3 per hour
I’m looking for a career change and have considered trying to get into heat pump installation.
Would you recommend retraining in heat pump installations and as someone with no experience in plumbing, where is the best place to start ? I was thinking of attending evening college courses to learn the basics of plumbing first.
Thanks 👍
Nice installation and I'm sure it makes perfect sense for a contractors bank balance, however this is a renovation of a house that no ones in a rush to move into and if this is a builder who will sell the project on he will be looking for a return on investment. A couple of questions what was the total cost for supply and installation ?, what's the warranty period, why have you specified such a large installation when you will run the system around 40% capacity ?. Where are people expected to put a cylinder of that size when houses have been built for the last 20 years without emersion heater tanks. what savings against gas will be made ?........... think of the disruption to the average family household with no guarantees........ yeah makes perfect sense.
Do you use glycol in the floor in the UK?
Część Szymon, ile kosztuje zamontowanie (robocizna) pompy ciepła?
Plumber United !
Amsterdam, calling...
Fantastic Job, well done
Many thanks!
Very impressive workmanship and women saw a young woman helping , sorry I digress, wow can’t think of anyone in my lifetime that I’ve been so impressed with , keep in mind that I was born that long ago rainbows was only in black and white, if you ever find yourself in Devon please pop in and give me a price no change that just come and do the job , very small house so would be your quickest install on record,
Lovely job and you make a lot of good points in this video. But while it's a straightfoward job to install the system in a house that is practically stripped to the bricks for a renovation, it would be a right head-scratcher if someone didn't want to do that. Thinking about my own place (mid-size semi) frankly I would pretty much expect to move out for a month and put all the furniture in storage for the period, which would add a fair bit to costs. Still, I might one day just have to bite the bullet and do that, I guess.
Depends on how well insulated your house is and whether you also want UFH. You could just require a pipe and radiator upgrade, if that.
that is what we do. Clear parts of properties so we can upgrade rads and some pipework and some people move out for around 2-3 days.
I have a question about the UFH instalation. Why do you use zig zag patern in stead of a snail patern?
I use both depending on a situation, layout and pipe spacing required
@@UrbanPlumbers As a one heat pump installer to anothet, based on your experience, did ypu find any difference in output between the instalation patern?
Pipework pattern will not affect the output greatly
Just a question, are the manifolds going to condense when using the active cooling? I normally use the plastic manifolds because i was scared of having problems with that. But maybe you have had no problems with this?
yes, there is risk of condensation on exposed maifolds.
I’d be curious to know the efficiency of these heat pumps at 75c flow temps?
I think the Vaillant is one of the few to do flow temps that high.
Awful. I’m sure it’s in the data sheet.
close to 1 I am afraid.
Amazing to see a real knowledgeable trades person. In Algave in Portugal they don't seem to exist. Let me know if you want a working holiday. 😂
I usually don't seeing pipes or cables. I prefer to hide them away. But this pipe work needs to be on display. Very nicely done, very professional, great job.
I do have one question. Ar around 8:15 of the video you have you left hand on the controls, right under that control I see some strange looking 4 way valve system. Can you please explain what that is and what its for? Is it some kind of automatic refill for the system?
it is unvented cylinder combination valve
Great content as always S, what would you recommend installing in a new build 1 bed flat or Studio, with little storage space out of interest?
well, with little space you may want something like a sunamp or storage boiler charged on cheap overnight tarrif if there is no space for external unit or DHW cylinder.
@@UrbanPlumbers Thanks! it's been driving me crazy! I've been looking at the sunamps, Do you have a recommendation on the electric storage boilers? The studio is shower only so no real HW demand
Electric shower plus 50l direct cylinder may be a better solution then
another great VIDEO
Keeping external pipework as short as possible is a great design; as you can see from your video, insulate with quality insulation that is VU protected and weather protected and seal all the joints/seal to the heat pump so as not to let any heat/energy out and not let water/moisture in that if it did get in would increase the thermal conductivity so reducing the insulation, heat pump, system efficiency.
Sealing through the wall, as you show, is also very important to stop moisture from bridging the cavity and stop all other critters getting in 👍
What was the cost?
How much did the fabric upgrade cost?
I dont know. That is the quesitons to the owner, who is watching my channel, so maybe he will reply.
Another brilliant film. Are they installing solar panels, inverters and batteries? I didn't know that the £5K grant was still available. I'd be interested to know what the whole thing cost? Did you price for supply of materials or was that the builder's job? I'm a keen DIYer and installed my combi central heating system in 2005. I've had a spare BIASI combi boiler in my loft all that time and just swopped over the one that has been running all that time, this summer. It hadn't failed, but several buttons didn't work, the pressure guage was all over the place and I thought if I don't swop it over now, it will never be used. As it is, I installed an 8.7kW solar array last December as my bills had gone up 600% since 2021. We hardly run the GCH last winter because of cost. I've since installed an unvented Gledhill cylinder with 2 x 3kW immersions which run off the solar and battery bank. On Octopus Go tariff, overnight electricity can be had for 9.5p/ kWh, although the gas has just gone down to 7.5p / kWh. Having the unvented cylinder has taken a huge load off my batteries and inverters (which are capable of providing 15kW discharge) because we were relying on a 9.5kW electric shower previous to this. Now the unvented cylinder provides a great shower. It's all a bit piecemeal, but has meant my £4000 gas and electric bill this year has been reduced down to hopefully £1000. I hope to not have to turn the GCH on this winter as I bought 2kW electric heaters for all the rooms and my battery bank can supply about 30kWh per day. If you work out what a gas boiler uses in the winter however, it's nearer 60kWh per day, but at least my unvented cylinder can be heated up overnight and will last until the next twenty four hours so that means more battery bank available for cooking, lighting and heating. I can't justify the £5000 for a heat pump just at this stage, but possibly in the future.
Yes, solar PV is planned for this house
Hello again Szymon, can I ask what make your floor trays are? I have used the Wunda trays for years but they have redesigned them and you can no longer get 100mm centres. Is that possible with these? Smart work as always buddy, keeping up.
Yep, profix plus
Thank you. I've just looked them up and they are based around half a mile away from my home. Crazy!!
Always great to see one of your videos, especially a heat pump one! Given sufficient space to create a proper installation, there really is no reason at all to install a brand new gas boiler in new or heavily refurbished properties, it really is a shame to see it continue to be done. Even if the running costs are comparable right now, they will without a doubt decrease in the future.
With so much misinformation currently circulating, do you find you have to suggest a heat pump yourself to customers and correct some of their misunderstandings or do potential clients come to you specifically requesting them?
I have to fight ignorant builders and plumbers all the time! The amount of misinfomration coming from our trade is just frightening. That is why I HAVE TO keep posting those videos to fight it.
Customers that come to me are less of a problem, as they are usually well educated in heat pumps already.
@@UrbanPlumbers It really is a shame to hear, especially that the misinformation is also coming from within the industry and not just the general uninformed media. You're doing a great service to the industry for sure, your videos are fantastic!
Lovely install mate
Are you allowed to install an Arotherm Plus with R290 refrigerant underneath a window?
Yes
Just curious about anti freeze valves without glycol. If the anti freeze valves open they won’t empty the heat exchanger completely, there’s still a risk it could burst.
Nice job 👏
Have you ever installed a system where you have a heat pump, keeping the old boiler as a backup for cold snaps?
I'm considering installing a heatpump, but we inherited a 1 year old system boiler with the house, which would feel like a waste to throw out.
We haven't converted the full house to UFH just yet ( we're going room-by-room), but we will need to move the old system boiler from our kitchen to the garage in the next few months.
If the boiler is correctly sized for the property, why waste your money? Just get the heating system reworked and the radiators sized for low flow temp, if they’re not already, then sit back and run your boiler in permanent condensing mode at 98% efficiency. You’re not going to gain anything when you factor in the expense of the install. A well maintained system boiler will give you at least 15 years of life, and being less complicated than a combi, far less in maintenance bills. I presume it’s still under warranty as well, in which case maintenance will be free if needed.
People will quote figures for “savings” with ASHP’s, but as with fuel efficiency with cars, be careful what you believe. Even if you’re getting 3 times out what you put in in terms of kW’s of electricity, the stuff is 3 times the price of gas to begin with.
There's no point. Keeping the old boiler means you don't get to take advantage of the £5K Boiler upgrade scheme. And heat pumps work just fine in cold snaps.
Id just put a wood stove in somewhere, if it was super cold or the power went out you can use it.
check new intergas hybrid - it looks good and is not crazy expensive
Nearly all the installers locally to me use Mitsubishi ASHPs. Do you know how these compare with Vaillants?
they are not that great. I installed one recently and wish I didnt. They are cheap and light weight though.
How does underfloor cooling work? I had heard you shouldn't do that because of condensation?
Have you had a look at the new intergas xtend?
Yes. It’s tiny and needs a boiler. Don’t think we will see many installed unless they sell it cheap
I put Flexi hoses through the wall all the time, it looks neat, well insulated and it's less fittings, win win if you ask me
good to know I am not the only one. As long as connections are accessible I do not see a problem myself.
@@UrbanPlumbers 100%, if you're ever unfortunate enough to install a lg heatpump, they often come with 750mm long hoses, absolute nightmare to deal with!
Yes, I agree with flexi connections. They help reduce the transmission of any vibration noise into the property pipework.
How do you remove humidity with a floor cooling? Doesn't the floor get wet?
you avoid condensation by following design specs for floor cooling practices.
not going too low on supply temp and not going below 19C floor surface temp. Of course only works in wet-screed system. It would give problems installed in dry-floorheatiing systems.
With that strategy condensation would not occur due to high surface area of the floor and not too low tempeature. Condensation detecting sensors can be installed in critical locations to adjust min supply temp for some systems.
I'd be interested in the cooling system too, although this summer we've had in the UK hasn't been that hot to give it a proper test.
Trust me. Once you have AC at home, you will use it a lot more than you think. No more sleepless nights when it's muggy.
I would be interested to know at what temperature the ""30cm"" pipes would freeze at ..Here in Derbyshire last 3 winters got down to -10c...
If the system has power they aren't going to freeze, the relief valves should prevent damage if the system does somehow freeze externally
@@edc1569 so it's possible.
that is why you have anti freeze valves. In 20 years of plumbing I am yet to see a pipe brust from freezing in the South of the UK anyway.
@@UrbanPlumbers but here in Derbyshire,,would -10c freeze them.?
In 2010 it got down to -15c and stayed at that for 3 weeks..
@@markb1487 In a power cut yes, but then they'd thaw out again, i'd be far more concerned about the pipes inside my house freezing in this scenario