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How To Get Most From Your Vaillant Boiler.
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- Опубликовано: 19 ноя 2022
- #vaillant #heatgeek #ufh
In this video, I show you how to install a modern & ultra-efficient heating system with hot water priority using Vaillant Eco Tec Plus 618 system boiler.
Heat Geek Heating mastery course link:
courses.heatge...
Links to the system diagrams:
www.urbanplumb...
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Amazing craftsman engineer. I'm not an engineer but constantly recommend you to my customer base.
Your points about being able to obtain controls are so valid as always. Having great annoyance trying to get hold of sensocomfort and miset controls for vaillant and glowworm currently.
Since getting your advice way back, doing heat geek and other courses I've managed to get almost every customers gas consumption and bills down by upto 75% in some cases.
Honestly a brilliant engineer and I'm honestly amazed you don't have a much larger following on social media and YT. Keep up the great work!
I am so glad to hear that you did the HG course and that you put the knowledge into practice! Well done!
@@UrbanPlumbers Thanks, I don't always agree with how Adam presents but you can't fault the course, it's one of if not the most comprehensive around.
I came from a mainly electrical and commercial heating background though so it was very much the norm to know parts but no where near everything that is included.
One thing I will say about the legionella cycle, often it's better to just have the immersion heater on a 1 hour heat up once a week/app controlled via something by Timeguard or alike to boost it to 60c if people have been away etc. The overall saving from the decreased gas consumption allows for the immersion to be quite economical to boost that last 15 or so degrees. Until manufacturers controls are more capable it's a decent alternative.
@@effervescence5664 yes - that is what I am going to do from now on on both heat pumps and bolers
Thanks for this video, being a predominantly breakdown engineer I don't usually get involved in bigger installs like this but it's great to see how you plan it and get it work efficiently 👍🏾 great video!
As always top level of craftsmanship and extreme level of knowledge when it comes to very high efficiency systems.
Keep the videos coming always enjoy learning from them 👍
Thanks, will do!
Domestic systems are now turning into the commercial systems. Weather comp and low loss headers have been used in the commercial sector for years.
Many thanks Szymon for all your help, very much appreciated. I hope you get the rewards that all your hard work deserves.
thanks mate!
I only install Vaillant and Viessmann boilers these days. I make it a point to visit as many of my annual installations in December as I can, to check performance. In nearly every newer, smaller home, the Viessmann 200 appears to save my clients 5-10% more gas consumption over the Ecotec. Whenever I check heat output during normal operation, it is usually hovering around 2-2.4 kWh, replacing the minimum required amount of heat, at a flow temperature at or below 40 degrees.
The Vaillant controls are great but I sometimes struggle to explain that the Viessmann doesn't need any controls ;)
Viessmann 200 is by far the best gas boiler ever made. I do like it a lot.
@@UrbanPlumbers Hope to see you install one soon! Best of luck!
@@UrbanPlumbers Wow! Combi or System? It's a shame you don't like to video the installs as so many would benefit from it. Viessmann are a pain but the end result is often hard to dismiss.
Thanks so much for the sharing!
Unfortunately, most plumbers still insisting to fit a 35kw boiler! Even for a 3 bedroom house with 8 to 10kw heat loss!
It’s slowly changing though
I just had my Vaillant ecoTEC Plus 637 Boiler (massively oversized install by my builder) and Heatmiser UFH unvented system upgraded with Vaillant VRC 700f weather compensated controller, VR71 wiring centre and VR920 internet gateway.
Previously I could only lower the boiler flow temperature to 60C whilst setting the hot water cylinder stat at 55C, but it would take nearly an hour to heat up the Joule 300L cylinder.
Now the upgraded system is running at 50-55C flow temperature for UFH (with outside temp -2C to 0C) and hot water priority set at 45C and takes around 30 mins to heat up the cylinder. Issue with one room not heating up properly which probably requires UFH balancing.
Expensive upgrade (honestly these advanced controllers and internet connectivity should be made mandatory) but hopefully will recoup this cost over time with more efficient system and more comfortable heating and hot water experience.
Wow that's a really tidy setup. Those insulated boxes over the pumps are quite nifty. Good work.
Societal mindset about bigger = better is a huge barrier it seems sadly - my in-laws have just bought a do-er upper, the 25kW boiler that's just over a year old has been ripped out because the architect *thinks* it's too small before even attempting to get someone to do some heat loss calcs, which I reckon can't be much over 10kW once it's been insulated and has new windows 🙄
Yes true. Sadly I also see architects and specifiers doing the same with heat pumps which is even more problematic than gas boilers oversizing
@@UrbanPlumbers yes, I was also trying to get this across to them in that respect - apparently the same architect *thinks* that they wouldn't be able to have a HP (without explanation) which seems short sighted since they're ripping everything out anyway so could easily go down that road now - mixed with a mother-in-law who doesn't like big rads and prefers to spend the money on shiny kitchens and bathrooms rather than the fabric of the building it's ARGGGGHHH
The depth of knowledge is amazing. I wish you would create a franchise - I would really like to have someone like you pull my system apart and redesign it.
there is a franchise already - its called 'Heat Geek elite' - google it.
@@UrbanPlumbers I watch that channel - also absolutely great, using their advice and now running my gas boiler at 42c flow rate, Was at 75c!!!!. Thanks for replying and really love your work. Your knowledge is inspirational.
Unfortunately the spec has asked for wet independent towel rails and also electricians 1st fix all completed. I guess I will have to use 2x ZV and a timer for the circuit. Thanks again for all your help.
Another excellent video of a great system.
Personally, for a domestic installation, I’d say the pasteurisation program is not worth using.
Think it’s there really to keep small commercial installations compliant with their responsibilities on water (or to at least help some way).
We install a lot of commercial ecoTec boilers.
Not much of their controls.
I find them a little less user friendly than some.
We used to install Buderus GB162 with their control kit, and I found them easier to explain to customers.
Great job fella.
Had similar installation a fortnight ago. Had to go the whole hog with all the controllers, the 250L tank was the one thing my plumber struggled to get. UFH will be bolted on when the extension is finished.
We don’t use the anti legionella mode on our installs now because they get way too hot and as you say pretty dangerous. What we use is the Tesla smart thermostat immersion heater and set that every 10 days to reach 60 degrees.
yes - that is most likely what I am going to be doing from now on. Legionella function is useless on Senso Comfort. Even on heat pumps, people complain that water gets to 75C!
Thats how I got around the problem to. I have only been able to run it weekly rather than every 10 days or two weeks. How do you do this automatically with the Tesla?
I’m still waiting for 2 vrc720 controls. Had no idea about supply issues so have 1 customer stuck with a Honeywell wireless stat u til I can get one. The other is for my place but I’ll prob just stick with my Nest now
Always enjoy watching your videos Szymon and feel that I've learned a lot from you. Please keep them coming 👍
I know it’s been said earlier in the thread, but this video is excellent. Very clear explanation and loads of useful information conveyed. I work in the heating industry and I always take away something useful from the Urban Plumbers posts. Thank you, keep them coming, especially the heat pump ones. (PS - I work for Vaillant...sorry about the supply issues with the VR 71!)
Thank you for the note. Any chance of knowing if and when we might be able to see Vaillant control products such as VRC720 and VR66/02 and VR71 wiring centres becoming more readily available at a reasonable price?
At the moment there is no indication that they will be available again
@@UrbanPlumbers I was beginning to think the same and it will be years before Vaillant is able to produce similar products locally in the UK for that matter. Isn't this sounding very ominous and the slow demise of the Vaillant brand? Let me correct that to a speedy decline!
@@MP-mu1kw No, because no one cares about efficiency in the UK so no one buys those controls anyway. Vaillant will keep selling condensing boilers connected to on / off controls and most will not have a clue - installer and customer alike.
I would estimate that only around 5% of engineers and customers are even aware of the difference those controls make.
@@UrbanPlumbers You have hit the nail on the head! That is the same reason I decided to get out the trade in the late 90's.
I’m still an advocate of sizing the boiler with the cylinder coil demand in mind, for reheat speed. Modulation ratios play a larger part if a boiler is oversized on the heating front…but, my default preference is Viessmann.
Absolutely brilliant. Very good explanation of how to do the job properly. It’s probably too late now for gas boilers now but the interface/relay should really be integrated into the boiler case - even if it kept as a separate board. Love your work and the videos.
boilers are out anyway - maybe 10 years left for new installs. Hopefully HP market will be better in terms of contorls.
@@UrbanPlumbers I couldn't agree more with you. There is little point in getting a "new" gas boiler installed of any make with supposedly 7-12 year warranty's. There will not be any parts available. What are the alternatives, Heat pumps? The jury is still out, but time will tell. Mainly because we are in a cold region and our housing stock is very old. The only option is to wind the clock back and go back to the good old days of "Economy 7" night time storage heating. Is there anyone from that era?
Nice job... 👍
I really like those LLH with the air sep and built in magnet , so neat and clean...
The very best hydronic design imo.
Be careful though I've had a few systems where the ufh runs hotter than the radiators. For this reason Viessmann never show a schematic with an unmixed circuit. I now only use unmixed circuits for towel rails.
For ufh I only use Viessmann because of the importance of modulation.
yes it crossed my mind that I could use 2 mixed circuits, just thought it would be unnecessary. One thing worries me though - on a mixed UFH circuit - what is here to stop the end user getting wrong flow temp and a wrong heat curve and running UFH too hot?
@@UrbanPlumbers you add a high limit stat to the ufh pump.
@@andrewmillwardwatford9410 couldn't be simpler right ;)
Nice video as always.
I put a similar system in at my house. I went for parallel charging though with a pump and two port after the header to run a 250l cylinder with a heat pump coil. I put two vaillant vdm’s in so the radiator circuit is still mixed and my underfloor circuit is mixed with a temp limit set at 35°c
Wish more people would let me fit such systems. It’s mostly about money.
Perfect! This confirms what I have installed to my house😅. Keep up the good work! 👍👍👍
Beautiful work. Have a look at the 165 & 167 Caleffi pump and mixing stations with the 559 SepColl header. It is a manifold which joins together the pump stations with hydraulic seperation built in so you can connect the boiler straight to the pump stations without using a header. So nice.
Flamco (pumps sued here) also does a header for pumps like it.
@@UrbanPlumbers We have just started using this pump & mixing station with header technology for the radiant heating & cooling and ventilation systems we deliver, I am in love with them, the plant room should be installed in the lounge, so pretty.
Many thanks. I've spent hours going through the subject so far and you are right, they are all different set ups. Your videos are much more 'how to..' than most of the others out there so prove very helpful. Would you be able to give any links to the suppliers for the mixing valves and Lh etc. Thanks again buddy, you are heading to legend status!
With a little of patience and help from different forums (Delta T on FB is good or DIY NOT combustion chamber) - you can work out most set ups.
So far I know that PDHW and load or weather comp on system boilers can be done with:
- all Viessmann boilers
- all Vaillant boilers
- all Intergas Boilers
- some Worcester Bosch boilers
- all Ideal boilers - although it is not even remotely comparable to above boilers
There is also a number of boilers that can't do it at all. I have not researched Baxi, Vokera, etc. I would not even waste my time with other lesser brands.
There is a set up with EPH contorls that can turn any Open Therm compatibile boiler into PDHW - but again, I have had no time to research that subject.
Great video bud, really helpful
This is amazing. I've learned so much from this one video. I would love for you to do a case study at my home reno in south London as I have exactly what you said I shouldn't have! An Eco Tec Plus 636 on an S plan but only 2 zones for DHW and CH. I had to turn the kWs down and it's probably firing up too much like you said.
Every plumber that has seen it in the past year has said "ah that's good work or piping" But I seriously think it's not designed right for my home. This is an experience and knowledge thing.
This type of implementation thinking should really be thoughtout before any multi-trades come in and dumb a full system in your home.
wish I'd contacted you first
It would be still beneficial to install a VR70 and VRC700 plus VR91. You would have to change any Plumbig and just rewire existing set up. This would give you 2 flow temps (Dhw and CH) and wether compensation or load comp with different controls.
Trouble is getting your hands on the kit (vr70 and vrc700 or vrc720)
I would imagine that the boiler is greatly oversized too unless you live in a 10 bedroom, 6 bathrooms mansion.
@@UrbanPlumbers Well ahead of you friend.
My setup
Vaillant sensoCOMFORT VRC720F Wireless RF Multi-Zone Room Thermostat
Vaillant VR921 sensoNET Internet Gateway
Vaillant VR66 Control Centre
VR10 Weather Probe
I control it all from the application or SensoComfort device you had shown.
Maybe I can ping you and book some time to validate the setup I have for efficiency
Just had a nice new Vailant installed yesterday or old Vailant died after 12 years of service. Really impressed with the new once, the technology has come a long way. Very quick heat and so quiet.
Quick heat may not be a good thing at all. What controls do you have on the boiler?
45 to 50C hot water storage sounds good BUT shower thermostatic mixers need 10C above set outlet temp to operate correctly so to get 43C max and allowing for a bit of heat loss to from cylinder to shower, 55C is min temp in my view.
16:05 In Norway it is normal to run hotwater cylinders all the time at max temp = 75 C, but with a mixing valve on the outlet set so max faucet temp is 55 C or lower. Since we need heating most of the year the extra heat loss to the room is not "wasted", although electrical cylinders are less efficient for heating than a heatpump.
It's a good thing you guys produce your own gas!
@@singlendhot8628 Basically all hotwater cylinders in Norway are electric and run on cheap hydropower, new houses may have a heatpump version though. Fossil fuels are not subsidized for domestic use, but rather heavily taxed.
Again, another excellent and informative video!!
Really love your intelligent design process.
Just a shame I can’t find a Heat Geek registered plumber near me!
Got a 20 year old Potterton 80 @ 30 kW running a badly insulated vented system and radiators on a Y plan.
Hate to think how much gas we’re wasting!
After watching a few of your videos I have gone through and upgraded our heating system, we had type 10 rads in most places with tado trvs fitted. The worcester boiler was controlled by tado as well, no way to do weather compensation.
Over the summer I have replaced most radiators with similar sized type 21 rads and also fitted a sense 2 wather compensation controller to the boiler. We still have tado trvs and the tado controller but all the tado does now is call for heat via its relay. Flow temperature is controlled by the sense 2. Seems to be working well and the flow temp is down at around 33 c with an outside temp of 8. Need to balance the system now as tado produces graphs for the trvs and that is showing me that some radiators still cycling on and off throughout the day rather than remaing on constantly.
Have you used Mixergy? I can’t remember. They have an anti-legionella cycle that is customisable. Love your videos 👍
Not yet!
Once again thank you for bringing a breath of fresh air in the innovation you are bring to domestic customers. Keep up the great work and my Hat's off to you and your team! A quick question for you, how do the Vaillant unvented cylinders compare with other brands such as Joule and or Gledhil and the likes and is it possible to add a VR10 sensor to non Vaillant cylinder and achieve the same lever of temp control?
Another great video 👍 The Heat Geek course is the best Ive ever done, I finished the awakening a while ago and want to start the mastery next year 😁
do it. Then joing HG assured scheme and go into renewables. Heat Geek Heat Pumps has a real chance to grow into country wide network that will be the top choice for customers who are after quality installers.
Really great video almost identical to my house and possible future set-up. Just wondering if you guys had any experience with Mixergy tanks, they look quite interesting.
Great video Szymon, I'm glad there is someone who's willing to enlighten installers and end users that there are far far bettter systems than bloody s-plan...
Awesome work sir 💪💪💪
Have you had any problems connecting flamco pumping groups to Vaillant's VR71? I had an impression that Vaillant allows only its own VDMs?
Best regards
Pawel
no issues at all. You can connect anything you want to VR71 - as it only does 2 things:
- sends 230V to a pump (so any pump can work)
- sends 2 x 230 to a 4 wire mixing valve to turn it up or down - so pretty much any 4 wire valve (or 3 wire if you omit E) can be used as well
Ah ok, thanks mate👍
Nicely done! As much as I respect Vaillant, efficiency is not as good as Viessmann 200 System boilers in well insulated homes. Heat loss replacement therapy cannot be bested :)
Cylinder control, better modulation and higher burn efficiency are the main reasons we switched all our customer installations from Ecotec to the V200 now, system or combination. Compared to Ecotec, we are seeing 5-8% increases in efficiency.
Yes V200 is nice but takes a lot of persuading to explain that there is no thermostat on the wall. Also Viessmann is such a joke of a company, just makes me feel sick every time I have to deal with them - beyond useless. If I can I chose vaillant.
@@UrbanPlumbers The whole benefit is linked to no thermostat on the wall :)
Sorry to hear - but if you want to squeeze every kWh out, nothing can beat the V200. Our customers are saving 20%...sometimes less sometimes more.
If you call Viessmann tech support, ask for Phil. He knows his stuff and will help you! So will Andrew Millward, who is a master of the 200!
@@singlendhot8628 thanks mate - but that is the whole problem with Viessmann - there is just 1 helpful bloke there - poor Phil 😃😃😃
@@UrbanPlumbers No installer on the planet can disagree with you on that one. Viessmann lost their good people, most went to Vaillant, which may explain why you like them so much!
We look at it slightly differently & want our end users to save the most gas. If that means a bit more agro during the installation, so be it. Once it's up and running, we hardly ever get called back.
Also, have you tried Mixergy cylinders for your low temp installs?
@@singlendhot8628 just got a message today from a client saying that Vaillant and SensoComfot I installed for him is using 2.8 less gas than the previous set up. He also insulated the house though. Vaillant + senso comfort + low temp rads can be amazingly efficient. I know that Viessmann is great as well, and even more efficient, but I chose a little less efficiency for less aggro with Vallant.
Your depth of knowledge is awesome.
I like your videos, and a specially the criticism towards the manufacturers for improvement.
The hot water priority is posible to achievable with just normal existing s plan system on all Vaillant, Glow-worm and heatline boilers even using third party controls and weather compensation(hard wired outside sensor).
not in the UK. How would you do it? Remember, those boilers do not support Open Therm in the UK and you cannot retorfit OT board to them (VR33) - as it invalidates the warranty.
We don't need OT(open therm communication protocol).
About 3 years ago, I installed a Glow-worm combination boiler with a weather compensation setup using a hard-wired outside sensor. At that time, the system had 7 radiators and 1 bathroom. Two years later, they converted the garage with an additional shower and loft with one more shower. In total, 3 showers/bathrooms. Combi couldn't feed them simultaneously as we know. The client didn't want to replace the boiler but wanted to install an unvented cylinder 200l and heat it using the existing combination boiler and still integrate weather compensation with hot water priority. So what I done is a little experiment. I watched what happens when the outside sensor is connected and disconnected and reconnected again. To my surprise, the last adjusted settings were kept.
So, for example, if I set my flow temperature to 70° while the outside sensor is disconnected, the boiler will be aiming for that temperature target, which is enough to heat the cylinder. But as soon I reconnect, the outside sensor wires, the boiler will be reverting to the last setting done on the heating curve. In my case, curve setting 2.1
which will determine the flow temperature based on the outside temperature.
So I concluded that all I need is a third-party relay, which will be connecting and disconnecting my outside sensor automatically. Hot water priority is also achieved through the same relay. For example, when you have demand simultaneously from heating and hot water, the live cable that powers the hot water motorised valve at the same time powers the 4 pole normally closed relay, which in turn disconnects the outside sensor and power to the heating motorised valve. As soon the hot water demand is satisfied, the power to the relay is disconnected, and contact is made back up to power heating motorised valve and peekaboo (reconnecting outside sensor for lower temperature heating only).
I spent £15.00 on 4 pole 240v normally closed relay, £3.50 on relay housing with din rail.
It sounds crazy, but it works well. Hope that helps others 🙏
Isolation temperature valve - ok that’s a new one! I like that
Thank you, it is rarely that videos explain reason why some things are fitted. Looks like a big job, you have nicely insulated all the pipes. I don't think my plumber carried proper analysis nor explained nor told me if something was wrong. He didn't do a return pipe for hot water, and he didn't adjust cold water pressure as we get cold water out the tap for 1min+ before hot water kicks in, he didn't calc for heat loss etc. Which area do you cover?
Great install, and the legionella control options are a bit limited - but at least they aren't as bad as Nest that forces a 2hr hot water cycle within every 48hrs, on a system that has good turn over it's a huge waste of money!
nice job as always.👍I;m sure you aware, but Zeparo and Spirotech manufacture insulated covers for Low loss headers, spirovents and spirotraps.
Those have been ordered. Just haven’t arrived on time
@@UrbanPlumbers Nice one!
NICE. Imagine if we had more of you.
We do. They are called heat geeks ;)
Love your videos.
Excellent system design, should last for many years, giving optimal comfort while maintaining efficiency - this is how it should be done
Thanks Gary, If only Vaillant could finally get their act togehter and actually sort out manufactuing issues with controls. I hear it is going to get even worse next year.
@@UrbanPlumbers As you know I've been trying (and failing) to get a hold of a VR70 and wireless SensoComfort for months, I'm informed there's still a 10 week delay. As you pointed out, no point in using these premium brands if you can't use their purpose built controls.
It truly beggars belief
@@LondonGas Just shows you that Vaillant does not care about efficiency at all. They can't sell their heat pumps without the controls too, so all controls are allocated to heat pumps now. If they cared about efficiency - they would only packs of boilers with controls.
The fact that Vaillant boilers still get installed with on/off 3rd party controls is crazy.
Excellent video, very informative. Thank you.
Another brilliant video Szymon, in fact it's the one I've been waiting for. I think a lot of us are at the point of moving on from the old S plan but are feeling nervous about the change. Your videos give a lot of answers to the many questions involved with this advanced type of system. One small query, I assume you fitted manifold only to the UFH? Great work!
Yes, manifold to UFH only. Rads are on the existing pipework.
Also, moving to PDHW is much more complex than S plan. Every single boiler manus does it diffrently, so you have to learn each system from scratch. They are similar, but none are identical set ups.
This is a true professional.
Great video and very clear. One question - did you have to replace all of the pipework around the property, now that it’s a pressurised system? How necessary is that step generally when upgrading a boiler system?
It’s usually not required.
Didn't understand half of it but very entertaining anyway. You are clearly the McGyver of heating engineers 😁
McGyver woud have used existing boiler and turned it into a nuclear power plant.
I just had a new Vaillant fitted, took two months to get the VR66, now I just hope it doesn’t breakdown.
As always, awesome video. 👌
Thanks for watching!
Brilliant...I wish you could operate in Italy as well...
I've got a single floor house with underfloor heating system and gas boiler. No radiators.
Today I cannot reach the design flow rates on the circuits so I'm asking to install an additional pump (without mixing valve) and low loss headers to decouple from the boiler pump.......would you do so in my case? Thanks!
Brilliant explanation, great video as usual 👍
Thank you! Cheers!
GREAT VIDEO AS ALWAYS!
Szymon, liking your videos a lot. Question for you please - does adding a pressurised hot water cylinder help with system efficiency? Is there any difference in performance between an unvented and vented cylinder of equal volume, insulation and heating coil size?
if the coil size and insulation are similar, then no. To boost efficiency on hot water you will need a high gain cylinder (same as you would use on a heat pump) and a setup that allows a periodic legionella cycle so that most of the time you only rise the temp in the cylinder to 50C. (Same cylinders as we use for heat pumps)
Great job as always. You said an oversized boiler fills the cylinder quicker. Any idea how much quicker or how long for the 12kw boiler to fill it?
You can probably limit the highest flow temperature of the boiler to fix the issue with high temperature during antilegionella cycle. Also a therostatic mixer valve or tap is always a good idea.
You can’t limit the boiler flow on eBUS
@@UrbanPlumbers not even on the boiler panel? 🤔
No, eBUS overrides any settings you do on a panel and on legionella cycle it does it’s own thing anyway
@@UrbanPlumbers oops, this is ridiculous 😂
@@sevastoskoumtzis5401 not really, that is the whole concept of the set up - it runs at 3 different temperatures at the same time so changing display temp should have no bearing on how the system fires
Interesting to know how much difference the cost off that install to a regular s plan would be
propably around £1k more. But you get much better efficiency, much better comfort levels and much longer lasting boiler and components due to lower temperatures. System is a bit more complex though.
Szymon, I have a large house with 7 rooms upstairs and 4 bathrooms which currently operates thru an old central system. When I upgrade I want to split the house into two plant rooms and then run the two sides separately. This avoids crossing the large open space on the ground floor. Treating it like two separate flats. Yes there is duplication but shorter runs should outweigh this. Why not is my question?
All the good pollack labourers are working abroad because of the pound and Euro. We are left with 2nd rate labourers in Poland, I know from experience.
I've never been a fan of vaillant boilers but this does look like a great system. Can you make up the pumping station with a blending valve using the probes? Do you just have one vaillant controller for the ufh or can you use it alongside room stats to switch off zones/actuators in different rooms?
Yes you can do all of that. You can use 3rd party stats to contorl VR71 or use them togehter with VRC720. You can use your own pumping station using 3 wire actuators - the whole set up is super flexible.
The only trouble is - you can't buy it and propably will not be able to get any VR71 or VRC720 for another 12 months.
Fantastic video, it’s so hard to find information on these sort of systems even via the manufacturer. That’s why there is such a default in the industry to just slap on a new boiler with a 240v switch and see you later.
You’re helping to raise the bar in the industry, I salute you 🫡.
I just aquired a VR71 and a VRC720F this morning from mr central heating that they had instock for an install I have in a few weeks, they have come through twice with these bits so they are always worth a call.
You actually managed to get a RF version!?? Wow - I can’t even get wired ones anymore. Jay (My oiler) helped me out this weekend with some wired kits, but going next year it is not looking good for the supply of Vaillant controls.
@@UrbanPlumbers yeah they had one RF in stock and one vr71. He said he had about 8 wired in stock. They are worth a call, sent out same say coming tomorrow. They show as o it of stock on their site but a phone call always seems to show stock.
They saved me on a plant room earlier in the year with the boiler, a wired 720 and a VR71 the customer actually went and got it all. It really is a shame that such a good set of controls is so hard to come by now.
Keep up the good work,
Chris
Coppertop heating 🫡
Can it be use heat only (418 boiler)? Is there any advantage to use 618?
Will much appreciate your comment.
Great video again mate, as I always say, fitting 3rd party controls on a Vaillant is like putting bicycle wheels on a Ferrari 🤦♂️
Yes, true.
Another great video, thanks! Do you have a link for the mixing valve units? I would like to try them :)
mwphs.co.uk/?s=Flamco&post_type=product
I’ve got a viessmann vitodens 100 which was incorrectly plumbed as two pipe rather than four pipe. As I control all my zone valves via home automation, I also know when I’m running hot water - so I bought an opentherm interface for arduino and I can now adjust my boiler temperature for dhw and ch from my phone. One thing I would like to calculate is the boiler efficiency: I have a pulse counter for gas, so I know the flow rate, I know the flow and return temperatures - But I don’t know the water flow rate - so it appears I can’t work out the efficiency? Anyone know a way of calculating it?
Nice work and a very similar to the install Andrew Milward did for me on our existing Vaillant using the same controls but using Esbe mixing valves. Its a shame Vaillant are still having such a problem manufacturing everything though, I had to buy the VR71 off eBay back in May/June time and it looks like it hasn't improved since. I also agree about the legionella cycle program limitations, ours ran this morning and I saw a peak of 74c at the end of the cycle!
Have you ever has issues with those Wunda UFH boards not holding with the spray adhesive they supply? I had real issues with ours not sticking when we installed it a couple of years ago which led to cracks in the screed and flexing in some areas of the floor so had to use a thermal imaging camera to find the pipes then mechanically screw it all down around them to get everything solid. Using tile adhesive seems to be more reliable but still not infallible, if I did it again I'd use something like Nu Heat or Polypipe with castellated plastic bumps for the pipe to go between which then about 20-30mm of screed poured over top making it a lot more solid rather than the thin 5mm screed that goes over top of these EPS boards.
Mine stuck quite well, but the self level done by the builder cracked anyway as it did not stick to the aluminium foil. They didn’t prime it though and used cheap Self level from Wickes.
@@UrbanPlumbers Ah yeh that's not good if they didn't prime it, as well as not sticking very well a lot of screeds react with the aluminium creating air bubbles in the screed
@@LocostR1 if they used primer and a decent leveler it would have been fine. I had the same system on other jobs with no trouble.
@Urban Plumbers Can you help install a modulating Tado receiver to a zoned combi boiler
Not related to this video but... In order to max the efficiency of a condensing boiler the return water should be as cold as possible ( so I am told) Is there any advantage to ALL the return water passing through a final radiator (using suitable sized pipe etc), just before it goes back to the boiler. I would like to hear your thoughts.
No, not a benefit really.
@@UrbanPlumbers thanks.
Just wish I could get the jobs where clients would accept the most efficient system. Sadly in most jobs I get people just turn me down when I price them for what would benefit them most and accept a an engineer that’s just cheaper. Changed a lil bit lately but as someone who takes pride i their work it’s frustrating
You need to educate your clients sadly. Explain that £1k more on controls pays for itself in lower gas bills and much less maintenance needed to the system.
I have to explain that to my clients on all my jobs. Most seem to get it. Those who don’t get an ideal logic with cheap controls.
Great video as always. If you’re going to be using legionnaires protection then the use of a TMV at the cylinder is recommended to prevent scalding.
TVM should not be installed at the cylinder though. It should be as close to the outlet it serves as possible, no? SO multiple TVM as needed. (I may be wrong though)
I just see it as a waste of energy.
@@UrbanPlumbers you can do either. Mine is at the cylinder but only works when the legionella cycle has heated the water up to 75, water is usually stored at 45 and the tmv is set for 55.
Sounds normal, well done.
Thanks Ken!
is that a air separator for supply and return in a single fitting, wow never seen one, this is excellent
it is a low loss header with an air separator and magnetic filter in one! It is from IMI.
Another great video 👍👍👍
thank you.
Is this compatible with an underfloor manifold with thermostatically controlled zones e.g Heatmiser etc. where there are actuators controlled by remote room stats?
Also same question for a non mixed circuit with TRV on radiators.
I get that with weather compensation you don't need individual room/zone control provided you have sized the emitters correctly but what if the heat output of one emitter is too great for the room/zone that it is heating?
If i put the boiler in low flame setting,it will consume less gas ...or it isnt recomand?i have ufh
What size house would you use those mixers ?,
When using this system on ufh ,do you buy the ufh manifold without the thermastic mixer on the ufh manifold ?
Are you also deletiing the pump on the ufh manifold ?
largish 4 bed. No need for blending valves or pumps on manifolds.
Brilliant video thanks Simon. I’m trying to establish if I really need to complicate my own system install with separation and extra pumps. I have a much smaller system with UFH and rads working off a combi boiler (xclusive 30), and the pump for the underfloor heating is on the manifold after a thermostatic mixer valve also on the manifold. is there really a necessity for hydraulic separation such as a close coupled tee and a separate pump for the rads? Because it seems to me that the UFH pump will only be pulling on the combi boiler pump when it’s actually calling for hot water to satisfy the UFH, when most of the time it will only be circulating water around the UFH.
It depends if the radiators are low temp design or not and also if the system is weather compensated. On low temp system with weather comp you will need separation, on high temp you can ‘get away’ with no separation usually. Does not make it right though.
@@UrbanPlumbers thanks, yes it’s high temp without weather comp. I know it isn’t ideal, I think if I was to do it properly I would insert a close coupled tee at the boiler, and then have a pump running the rads. Intergas also advise in their manual to either have hydraulic separation or a normally open zone valve before the manifold to avoid the UFH pump pulling water through the heat exchanger while DHW is being called for so I intend to fit it this way first as recommended by Intergas, and then look at ways of modifying the system to make it more efficient in future. Thanks for your help 👍
Hi great post. I do have a silly question. I have a boiler with 2 thermostats and two valve ports. when zone 2 calls for heating valve 2 opens but water doesn’t circulate through. Boiler indicates that is in heating mode and time to time the burner goes on but switch off quickly. The CH outlet pipe is hot but the CH return is cold. If I would force zone 1 to call for heating then all system start to operate and have heating all over. Any clues how I could control only zone 2 by itself? Thank you
Would love to know the cost of all that😮
I just figured out in UK you have only 2 types of boiler configurations available from Vaillant : either "heating + DHW generation" (with plate exchanger), either "heating only". In Belgium we have one additional type which is "heating with integrated 3 way valve". This type has 4 water ports on the bolier : heating flow & return, DHW cylinder flow & return. This makes the external hydraulic & electric circuit more simple.
Analyzing the UK installer manual I see the heating only system boiler in the video does have an integrated 3-way diverter valve but there is nothing to divert as the boiler has only 2 ports (flow & return)... Do you know why this valve is there ?
Too complicated for UK installer market 🤣
Maybe it's a carryover from other markets in the firmware.
If you're going on a picture of the boiler, then what I think you're looking at is that the system boiler sold here (Vaillant 6 series) is the same as the Combi (8 series), but with bits missing essentially [though isn't much cheaper.....], and so it still has the diverter valve body but there's a sort of blanking plug in the front rather than the diverter body.
wow really interesting thanks
Love your Videos. Good and Honest. Cant find the link to layout drawings?
link is in the description under the video. But here you go again:
www.urbanplumbers.co.uk/vaillant-eco-tec-plus-system-boiler-hot-water-priority-diagrams/
@@UrbanPlumbers thank you. Just found then . Cheers for all you do
I have an old Potterton unvented S-Plan with one 3 port valve (don't know the p/n) and looking to have PDHW setup similar to what you have shown in this setup. Would it be necessary to replace it with the one you have recommended in your design or the existing valve will do the same job?
So where is your link about schematic about pdhw
Is weather compensation only suitable for solid brick detached homes?
No, it’s suitable for all houses
Just a thought about the HW Legionella temp issue, I also think its too hot. Could you adjust the NTC offset as far as possible one way and then up the regular cylinder temp, ie it would think it was 60c when actually it was 55c, but you would need to set regular to 50c so its really 45c. A bit crap but maybe one way around the problem until Vaillant add options.
I doubt they will update it any time soon and if they did would they give firmware update to existing controllers, not even sure if VRC720 has ability to update via USB.
you could just get a 'wrong' NTC - yes
Still can’t get my head around how legionnaires can be present in a sealed, black, dark hot water cylinder with very little oxygen and zero sunlight. Perhaps someone can explain that.
On the system, I’d say it’s as close to perfect of anything Ive seen in fifty years, well done.
I hear you. I do not think there has been a sinlge injury from a sealed unvented cylinder ever in the UK. It may well be the case that regulation regarding legionella is way over the top.
Wait until you see a sink with separate hot and cold taps. 👍
@@UrbanPlumbers oh yeh, if in doubt legislate, it’s totally over the top, I’ve never heard of a case other than cooling towers, which as you know are a completely different animal. Keep up the good work my friend, it’s great for me to still be learning after call these years.
Light levels has nothing to do with it. Legionella can’t photosynthesise, not a plant. Some bacteria are anaerobic, not requiring oxygen in gaseous form. Not legionella though. I do agree the whole thing has been overdone by risk averse rule making committees, something which nowadays we have all experienced with covid SAGE and now the OBR.
I don't understand why you still have an outside temperature sensor. My Vaillant system installed one year ago does this by looking up the weather on the internet. The thermostat controls and programming are on an app on my phone. Don't you get this in UK? There is also one room stat wireless with just a + and - button which overrides the programmed temperature for a predetermined time.
Accuracy
how comes you use vaillant so much ??
A very good boiler and a relatively decent company compared to others
Hi again Szymon, just wondering how you would also include a towel rail circuit into this set up? Would it need another dedicated mixing station or could you tee off after the rad mixer with zone valve(s)?. Not sure how to do it and keep the boiler temperatures as low as possible. Any ideas? Thanks.
Yes you can use ZV but then you need 2 of them for both rads and towel rails. I would rather just use electric heating elements for the towel rails than add 2 zv
Bosch do pump and mixing valve modules, weather comp etc that work with their heat pumps and boilers
Do you have a link for the mixing module and wiring center? Also do you know what gas boilers are compatible from WB range?
You have to use a sense 2 control and can have up to 4 circuits. MM100 wiring centre can come with the pump groups, very easy to fit. I would think all the current range and the cdi classic should be compatible
@@heatpump8566 but you also have to fit internal diverter or just 2 ports?
You don’t need the integral diverter valve. They have just put out a TB on it including part numbers and schematics etc
Why do alot of engineers pipe the flow and return for the cylinder before the kow loss header
Because that the way it should be done. Otherwise you loose efficiency on DHW and there is never a good reason to pipe behind the header. Headers are used when system resistance is to large for the boiler pump alone, cylinder resistance is never too big for the boiler pump.
We are still waiting for the updated video about Opentherm + PDHW with Nest 😊
When it is ready pls?
do you mean PDHW + Nest OT on Vaillant?
@@UrbanPlumbers yeh I think u had a video but was removed .,. Does it matter if it's Vaillant or Ideal Vogue Max ?
Mans a genius
10:12 - what brand/model is the electric mixing/blending valve please? Trying to find one for my setup…
flamco