THIS HEATING SYSTEM NEVER WORKED - Adam's Problem
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- Опубликовано: 3 дек 2023
- Can I get this system working? Follow me along as we look into this problem heating system that 3 plumbers couldn't get going.
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Sometimes i think the old systems were best but so unregulated per zone. This system is a marvel, however sooo many things to go wrong making the homeowner a symphonic conductor to his household heating system keeping that fine tune in check. I'm glad you tuned this system in this beautiful home. Thanks to the owner for being so gracious to share it with us.
I've lived in my current property for 10 years and have just put up with the fact that some radiators either didn't get warm or took forever to do so.
I had the TRVs set properly, but most of the lock shields were open fully. I've adjusted them as suggested and now all rads heat up evenly. Can't believe how simple the solution was.
I agree with not slagging off previous plumbers. We have all been there when you get plumbers block and can't clear your head. It needs a fresh head to visit the job..
Cheers man. It’s so true! I’ve been there too. 😂
i am 100% capable of getting something wrong this is why i never slag any other tradesman off
But they were happy to take his money! If they couldn’t ‘clear their head’ they shouldn’t have charged him, simple
Well said 👏
“Don’t slag other plumbers off, but what were they thinking” 😉
You are a good man. What you said was true and so much more respectful of previous plumbers than I might have been.
Nice job on that. I wish I’d known about this in my old house that was a new build because the down stairs was always freezing because the rads never got that warm but upstairs it was roasting hot.
Never knew heating systems had so much going on...id use you all the time if i had a problem, you seem to be on top of your game
Automatic bypass valve was what you couldn't remember ! Great video. Nice to see some decent P&H engineers still exist.
I really enjoyed watching this. Even picked up some tips. I'm off to set my thermostatic valves now. Near the stat, leave on 6, all the others, set to around 4. Nice house too.
Very interesting! It’s always enjoyable to see how things are setup and work across the pond.
Fantastic video! I knew next to nothing prior to watching this video about boiler systems and now i feel i have a good grasp on how it works. Thank you.
Very good informative and detailed video in balancing the heating system. Thank you
Thanks James for such an easy tutorial. I balanced all my radiators yesterday and set the thermostatic valves to no.3. One warm radiator is now blistering hot. Thank you mate.👍
Brilliant video. I've not got anything as complicated as that in my house, but I always love to learn. I'm a Civil Engineer and was not taught plumbing. The pin check was great to know. More videos please?
Another Very informative vid. Old man’s knowledge, with a teenage face. How blessed you are 😂.
Great video Jimmy, a master class. A must for any aspiring plumbers
Thanks man!
What an interesting and educational video. Each and every plumber in the land should be made to watch this one, and several times over for some of them.
It certainly is a great teaching tool.
Excellent video. I don't have the knowledge or skills to tinker with my heating system, but you gave me the confidence to balance the rads and adjust the TRV's to the most appropriate settings.
Cracking video, just gone round all of my radiators that were all pretty much fully on and sorted them!
So glad I found your site. You are a fantastic plumber. That appears to me (I'm not a plumber or HVAC guy) to be a complicated system but you are obviously knowledgeble with it. Thanks for a great video. I'm from the US so all this is very interesting to me.
so glad I've found this video! Mate - you are a lifesaver! sorted out my system doing this - great videos also!
That was brilliant James .nicely explained and carried out 👍👍👍
Thanks man!
Best heating related video that I have ever seen. Based on your video I have fixed the exact same problem that you had on this call out. Thank you so much, you are an absolute diamond !
Hiya James. Just saw the video with you and Roger Bisby and the noisy rad.
He asked you when the baby was due, didn’t notice when video was made but just wanted to wish you and Emily all the very best with your new arrival!
If the little one has arrived many congratulations🎉🎉 to you both.
Great video mate. Thanks for sharing.
You've mentioned self balancing valves were not set correctly but you didn't show this in the video. Perhaps you could share when you get a mo? Thanks mate 👍🏻
First view of you….really sound and whilst this is not my area of knowledge and practice, I found it really interesting and informative. I really liked your straight forward information and professionalism…..esp when referring to previous plumbers.
Very well explained and thanks for sharing
Thank you James! I learnt so much I didn’t even know! I’m going round balancing all my rads as I was one of those culprits that had all TRVs set to 6 😂
Fantastic!
There's another way?!
Great informative video James and what a lovely property - so jealous.
25:20 All fun and games when pin pulls out..Done that before 😅😂
My background was soot juggling as an industrial heating engineer but office blocks shared the same basic system as found in homes. Half an hour cranking down fully open lock shield valves and Bobs your dads uncle. Don't really miss cranking up three stage half a megaWatt oil fired boilers or warm air heaters. 👍 Regards from Cyprus. 💟
Great video and a job done well James. In the end did you change the pump speed and the bypass after it jumped into your hand?
Thankyou for a really informative video. I think most of my trv's are at 6 and i never new about balancing the other valves so I will be going around and setting them all to a 1/4 turn.
Brilliantly explained , Many thanks .
That was brilliant! Lovely house too 👍🏼
Great video, you sorted it with no trouble.
Excellent work and great knowledge
did most of this but also had issues with air so the radiator was hot at the bottom on a couple but well explained thank you
Great explanation video. Its often the easy fixes that are overlooked, amazing how little flow you actually need to carry the heat in a rad. Have to say never actually thought about restricting the HW coil flow but makes perfect sense. Couldn’t work in socks get some indoor footwear 😂
This is gold. Pure Gold.
"Legs don't feel the cold"
Truth.
I've been wearing shorts in Canada. Been down to -30°C recently.
Took all my TRV's out, as nobody seemed to shut doors, This was an excellent video thank you.
I've just balanced my radiators, and now my heating and hot water is working better than it has in months! Thanks dude, you're a lifesaver!
Why bother with balancing if you have TRVs? My lockshield valves are all fully open and things work fine.
@@rogerphelps9939 Why bother with thinking when you have a smooth brain?
I'll have you know that I have engineering and maths degrees from one of the world's top STEM institutions Imperial College London which has produced several Nobel Laureates. They teach you critical thinking skills.. How about you.?Passed your GCSEa yet?@@HRRRRRDRRRRR
As always, fantastic informative vid 👌.
Nice one, I've been messing about with my radiators for years and think this has finally rounded out my misinformed conceptions .. clarity at last! Thanks!
Good luck!
Had the same issue on my ex council house. Main runs to front and rear of the house were 15mm supplying 4 rads each. Changed these to 22mm and things improved dramatically.
At 18:40...SO TRUE! It is so unprofessional to slag off a previous operatives work; in any trade. I have left a customer's house before now at 10 at night and told them "brain is fried - I'll be back in the morning". The only time I'll comment on previous work is when it is actually dangerous (I'm a sparks, I follow James's channel out of interest) Even then, a quiet explanation is all that is normally needed; not a hissy fit - that just disturbs the client to no win for anyone.
Cheers man - you’ll love my next video, a collab with Artisan Electrics (Lee and Luke)
Good overview. We just had a heat pump installed (which is working really well) but a few of the rads were not balanced properly. Took me a while but I think I’ve managed to get a heat drop of 5C across each rad.
Excellent and professional 5* mate.
Great video, and funny presentation, really enjoyed watching.
Besides all the plumbing and fine-tuning... what a clean house!!
Retired Plumber here , you did a good job . A lot of Plumbers cannot be bothered spending that little bit extra time with customers . I once went to a Worcester Boiler Installation , that had 15 mm Pipes from the Flow and return ? I am in a one bedroom Flat and still Blance my Radiators , on my Worcester -Bosch 28i Junior Conventional Boiler 16 years old ! 😇
i was going to tile a friends bathroom ,i did not have time to do plumbing ,he said he had 2 plumbers ,i went back 2 days later ,buckets catching leaks from everything they had fitted ,they piped into an electric hot water cylinder for the shower ,1 of the reasons i could not do the plumbing at the time was the water main for shower was long way from bathroom needed lots flooring taken up i seen this idiot had shower piped up and checked and sure enough he plumbed into a hot water cylinder ,scalding hot water ,he was a plumber in the shipyards ,worcester bosch ,brilliant boilers :)
Well done for us people who get lost with rads hope mine get better after watching this
I had a cottage where the radiators furthest from the boiler never really got hot. Balancing improved it a tad but it wasn't a complete cure. It turned out the pipework was too small to get the heat to the 2 rooms. Replacing the pipes i.e. 15mm to 22mm cured the problem.
The best plumber, heating engineer on RUclips !!
Brilliant work m8,
2 add ins, check the gas rate of heat source so u know it is producing correct heat.
Test flow and return at boiler for differential heat accuracy, will tell u pump speed if correct and whether u have system design issues.
But really great video.🎉
I m new to your channel, its ace!. I learned a lot, quarter of a turn on the lock sheld valve. The 2 radiators that got lukewarm now get hot! 😮😎. I did another way. Cannot remember which it was. They weren't fully open I know that! Watching for more tips and just generally out of interest! Have a great Xmas!
a profesional plumber and great video editing
Best radiator balancing video I've seen. Looks like you're off the Red Bull too James 🤣
Top notch!
Been a plumber for fifty years, not to up on the heating , so love your videos , all ways nice to be a friendly joking plumber , unlike some of my dower plumbing mates, all the world is a stage ha ha
All the world's indeed a stage and we are merely plumbers. With putty and with spanners. Each another's critic. Beyond the seized up pump. - Bill Wobbleystick.
your videos are amazing! You mentioned that you were in Costco in Stevenage. Are you anywhere around this area in Hertfordshire?
Great advice I enjoy your videos ,can you send details of your thermal camera please.
Great job mate 👍
Superb video, really enjoyed it, would you have a discount scheme for that thermal camera, I’m very interested in buying one
Very well explained. Naw my rads are balanced, I can hear the water flowing through them, is that good or bad?
Such a tidy and well organised system, oh dear. And very handsome boots.
Great video, as always!
Question, I’ve just ordered and awaiting an install of Honeywell auto-balancing valves and matching lock shields from Honeywell.
This is to go with my Evo Home solutions.
I watched a video of your a while ago and you were highly complimentary of this solution, do you still hold the same views on them, balancing Rads seems easy, but so many plumbers don’t seem to spend the time getting it right.
Good video I've just gone around all mine seem to be lot hotter upstairs now cheers 👍
I stopped using gatevalves for flow control e.g. on the primary return, back in the mid 1980's, they are not designed for that purpose, I use DRV's, a bit more expensive but virtually tamperproof. I would only reduce the flow temp to 60 deg.c if I knew that the radiators were sized for that Delta T. A good demonstration of the benefits of investing in a good thermal imaging camera, far quicker than using 2 Rototherms😊
I changed my TRVs a couple of years ago after changing the boiler. I now use the Hive programable valves which effectively make each radiator a separate zone. They also control the boiler when heat is required. These so far have made the house a lot more comfortable in that we can program heat to, for example, our bedroom and on-suite for an hour before we get up and the it's nice and toasty, likewise we can shut the heat off in rooms we don't use for most of the day and only heat them when we do. The app is not the best but it works. I'd be interested to see if you have come across them or used them.
Also when I refitted my utility room I fitted a SureStop on the rising main above the normal stop tap. Having had a burst pipe a few years ago and my wife being unable to turn off the stop tap it seems worthwhile for emergency use. Again if you have used or come across them I would be interested.
Nicely explained and will be checking mine after the service has been completed ,
Question got a slight drip on a strap boss in the soil pipe any tips for stopping it besides ripping the soil pipe out,please and thank you 👍👍👍👍
If you can get it really clean and Dry, you could try gap cement. Once you have it clean and dry run a brush with 'solvent weld' around the joint a few times then build up with 'gap filling cement' and let it dry for an hour.
Fair play ,great vid.
This video was very informative and helpful for me, had the heating replaced from heat to combi, was never told about how the TRV worked, I thought these were more of a water flow regulator, not temperature controlled.
It's about both. Flow restriction at lockshield to balance, but the TRV completely shuts off the flow at its end when the temperature has been sensed. The Drayton TRV4 does both at the TRV end where the lockshield is left fully opened and the flow is restricted within the TRV head as well as the normal TRV shutting off.
Thank you, they have installed what looks like a Centre TRV product code: 205770. To the logo and type by picture, Take it the lock shield is the valve on the opposite end, all these are fully open, is it best to get these balanced or just leaving them, the TRV I've adjusted.
Very Informative video James, just saved us lots of wonga sorting my sons heating, eleven rads in his new house 3 stayed cold despite balancing, did the stuck pin check on thermostats, and that was the problem, sorted out with push and pull and a drop of wd40, a massive chuffty badge to you, and a thousand thankyous.
Beautiful home
Great video - thank you so much
Nice one! In time for winter too!
Sure is!
Great video very informative BUT you missed out when balancing rads make sure that the trvs are on the flow and fitted correctly, and on the Cylinder the value is called a bypass value, other wise well done, I'm an old heating engineer.
Could you use your thermal imaging camera to follow the pipe runs under the floors? Perhaps by looking up at the ceilings?
Damn but that's good plumbing. Great job boss.
Very natural presenter.
Really interesting video. Thank you
The master of there trade at work unbelievable fabulous
Great video, I’ve followed your tips for my own radiators.
Couple of questions, I’ve got 3 towel rails.
Should at least one of them be set to full flow ?
Also when balancing rads I keep reading about a 12 degree difference between flow & return on the rad.
Is that correct?
Absolutely brilliant video, well done fella!
I was in the same situation with a north facing bedroom that is over a garage. The radiator never really got hot. It was also the furthest radiator from the boiler. I've just been round and balanced all the rads as per this video (most were wide open). What a difference this has made. Fantastic and thank you for de-mystifying rad balancing!!!!
It only needs one radiator to have its balancing valve fully open, to return hot water to the boiler and shut it off, not to mention starving the other radiators of pressure.
The easiest method is to first turn every valve fully off, then open it a quarter turn.
You can then start to balance things up, by adjusting the valves a fraction of a turn at a time, then waiting 30 minutes for the result. Needless to say, you have plenty of time for cups of tea and if things go belly up, just start again.
I use the same method in large commercial buildings, where the boilers are putting out megawatts of heat. It is just a matter of keeping a clear image of the entire installation in your mind.
@@wilsjanewhich would you want fully open, the problem one? And which would you start the opening a quarter turn to initiate balancing with - the one furthest from boiler?
@@Horizon301. Before starting, bleed every radiator to remove any air and check the system pressure. Before turning the boiler on, turn every thermostatic valve to maximum and set all the lockshields to a quarter turn.
Then switch the system on.
Walk around as the system starts to heat, to check that every radiator starts warming up at the thermostat first. Then walk around every few minutes to check the progress of the heat across the radiators. Those that are hot right down to the lockshield within about 5 minutes are fine. If a radiator fully heats faster than that, reduce the lockshield by a few degrees, while any that are taking longer, (normally the larger radiators) can be opened a few degrees.
Leave for about 30 minutes, then to check.
Feel the top of the radiator near the water entry, then at the exit valve. The temperature should be a few degrees lower, but not noticeably cool. Then you can fine tune the lockshield where necessary.
When you have finished, all radiators will have water available when required and none will be running flow temperature water back to the boiler while starving others.
If any radiator is not responding correctly, the thermostatic valve may have a jammed pin that needs to be replaced or cleaned. NEVER try to compensate this by opening the lockshield, or you will unbalance the system.
Finally set the thermostatic valves to set the rooms to the desired temperatures.
All this is an awful lot simpler than it sounds and you will develop a clear mental image of where the water is going.
Once you have completed it a few times, you will feel confident to tackle any system, from a bungalow to an office block, since they all obey the same basic principals.
Set up correctly, the boiler will have a cycle to match the load and you may then want to adjust the burner to prevent short cycling. This can save quite a lot or fuel.
It's a bleeding pest needing to bleed the radiators and driving the air out of the system but it needs to be done to get the most out of your energy consumption?
Makes me appreciate my central HVAC system that much more lol. Thats a pretty complicated system with A LOT that can go wrong. I've lived 50yrs without heated floors and radiators and have survived just fine lol
I know radiators were a common thing years ago and some places still utilizes them.
Great video again mate and something I'll definitely have a go at myself. A silly question tho if I can ask, the 'other' valve that allows water out of the radiator, how open should it be? And should they all be set to whatever opening it is? Many thanks if you or anyone can answer and take care 👍
It should be set to 1/4 turn open, then monitored then just tweaked after that to bring it up if it's not getting hot after 20 mins.
"........ should be by the Toilet" 🤣😂 Priceless James!
James, I take it this does not apply if a TRV like the Drayton TRV4 is used where the balancing flow can be adjusted within the TRV valve and the normal lockshield end is left fully open. Underneath the big adjusting temperature head there is another adjuster ring that restricts flow by using a special key. If someone installed one of these previously and set the TRV4 to its lowest restriction then no amount of fiddling with the lockshield will increase flow.
For the 22mm gatevalve on the cylinder coil return I find anything over one full turn is pretty much fully open. Gatevalves are pretty useless at restricting flow imo.
True!
Gonna check the balance on my rads as I’m sure all mine are open a full turn. Probably why the ones in the front room which are furthest from the boiler don’t get as hot as expected with the stat fully open.
A well explained tutorial thanks, and all in layman’s terms.
In my experience most lockshields are quite useless at restricting flow once they are opened more than 1/2 a turn from closed, so a lockshield open one full turn or more is as good as fully open.
The guy did say that it stopped working after the boiler switched off and back on again, so it’d be interesting to know if it’s still sorted in a weeks time.
He text just a few days ago to say all was still well. Seeing him again soon as he’s coming on to my channel @lifeindeep
@@plumberparts hold tight!
Boosted the heating at 10.28 and announced it's been an hour or so at 12.52... I hope he doesn't expect an invoice for an hour or so labour! Great video James. As Andrew mentioned below, the UFH could also be robbing heat from the radiator circuit but it seems you're a good bit further down the road to a better balanced system. Good work Mate... Hold tight!
Also, IMI Hydronics makes self-balancing valves, I believe they also manufacture the cores in the new Danfoss self-balancing TRV's.
Great vid ,top man proper plumber 👌👌👌
The little touch at the end for the wife was the masterpiece!
Thanks man! 😂
an absolute gentleperson customer. in different times, I'd be rolling the coffee too. as it stands, I'd probably bring it to you in a paper cup after you were done or adjourned and were cleared to doff the respirator.
Great video. Do you work in Hertfordshire? Thanks 🙏
Hi James, use your temp sensor to measure the flow and return temps from the boiler and each rad, it should have a 10°C difference generally, the closer the temps the more you close the LSV down and hence the terminal rad should be full open. I enjoyed the video, good man.
I've heard this as well, it's the temperature drop from flow to return that is balanced by adjusting the lock shield. The further the rad from boiler generally needs the lock shield opened a bit more to increase flow, so I don't quite understand why all rads have only quarter turn open. Good video mind as always from James.
@@monstermonstermonster2983
Its the same reason the electric showers go cold when some joke flushes the toilet !
This was what I always thought. Closest rad to the boiler should only be open a crack, then opening more and more as you move away from the boiler. Final rad fully open, as you want cooler water back to the boiler for condensation.
One of the earliest things you learn as a heating engineer is that isolation valves ( gate valves) are not balancing valves, they can not be used to accurately balance a multi zone heating system, at best you get crude control on the last 10% of the valves movement
just picked up on something you were saying when talking about the auto balance valve "the boiler likes a bit of hot flow returning to it as it helps with the condensing"
my understanding is that the return to the boiler wants to be as cold as possible. it starts condensing at 55c (might be wrong on that figure, doing it from memory) flow return but.... the lower the temp of the return the more condensing it does.
how does having hot water in the return help condensing?
in my experience due to the proximity of the trv to the radiator TRV don't really measure room temperature, the heat from the radiator completely overwhelms them (i do have data somewhere to back this up too)
With no hydraulic separation the underfloor heating may draw more than its share of water from the heating system in competition with the radiators. The type of manifold fitted at this property is for high temperatures and the boiler temperature needs to be set high
Then why not have an appropriate regulator to ensure the hydronic area doesn't draw more, instead of completely separating the water system? Agreed, in order to ensure sufficient heating capacity for the total building the boiler has to be sufficiently sized and fueled. But if hydronics are drawing less, and radiators are satisfied, then the overall temperature regulator (controlled set point) should just reduce fuel burn (manipulated variable). No need to hand-set it artificially high.
@@armslength2618 it depends upon the flow rates from the boiler and into the circuits. To supply an affinity to an underfloor heating system the supply temperature to the manifold must be greater than the manifolds return by the Delta t of the boiler. Any less than the underfloor heating system will fail to heat correctly. At the same time we're trying to minimise the flow temperature from the boiler to maximise condensing efficiency. For this balancing act to be accurate we need hydraulic separation and a low loss header sensor
@@andrewmillwardwatford9410 Are you actually using an old style pressurized steam heating system to radiators then shunting condensate to the floor hydronics? I'm somewhat familiar with industrial scale steam and condensate systems, but I thought residential/office steam was just deployed today for high bldgs to save on pumping effort against liquid head. I assume then this high manual temp setting is a mechanism to somehow maintain appropriate steam quality/pressure for the circuit(s) to work properly. But why use steam at all? Or is this just a mechanism to maintain liquid water temperature abnormally high under pressure to increase the efficiency or 'drive' of heat into the building?
@@armslength2618 not steam. Just high water above condensing temperature.