Hope you enjoyed this video guys! 🚀 *_LEARN PLUMBING ONLINE IN MY STRUCTURED COURSE (50% Before March):_* www.learnplumbingonline.com 🛠 *_AMAZON TOOL STORE:_* www.amazon.co.uk/shop/plumberparts 🥾 *_10% Off my workboots + workwear Use Plumberparts10:_* www.bigboots.co.uk/?ref=plumberparts10 👓 *_10% Off Safestyle Sunglasses Use PLUMBER10:_* safestyle.com.au/?ref=PLUMBER10
Sometimes i think the old systems were best but so unregulated per zone. This system is a marvel, however sooo many things to go wrong making the homeowner a symphonic conductor to his household heating system keeping that fine tune in check. I'm glad you tuned this system in this beautiful home. Thanks to the owner for being so gracious to share it with us.
I agree with not slagging off previous plumbers. We have all been there when you get plumbers block and can't clear your head. It needs a fresh head to visit the job..
What an interesting and educational video. Each and every plumber in the land should be made to watch this one, and several times over for some of them.
I'll have you know that I have engineering and maths degrees from one of the world's top STEM institutions Imperial College London which has produced several Nobel Laureates. They teach you critical thinking skills.. How about you.?Passed your GCSEa yet?@@HRRRRRDRRRRR
Been a plumber for fifty years, not to up on the heating , so love your videos , all ways nice to be a friendly joking plumber , unlike some of my dower plumbing mates, all the world is a stage ha ha
All the world's indeed a stage and we are merely plumbers. With putty and with spanners. Each another's critic. Beyond the seized up pump. - Bill Wobbleystick.
At 18:40...SO TRUE! It is so unprofessional to slag off a previous operatives work; in any trade. I have left a customer's house before now at 10 at night and told them "brain is fried - I'll be back in the morning". The only time I'll comment on previous work is when it is actually dangerous (I'm a sparks, I follow James's channel out of interest) Even then, a quiet explanation is all that is normally needed; not a hissy fit - that just disturbs the client to no win for anyone.
Thank you James! I learnt so much I didn’t even know! I’m going round balancing all my rads as I was one of those culprits that had all TRVs set to 6 😂
My background was soot juggling as an industrial heating engineer but office blocks shared the same basic system as found in homes. Half an hour cranking down fully open lock shield valves and Bobs your dads uncle. Don't really miss cranking up three stage half a megaWatt oil fired boilers or warm air heaters. 👍 Regards from Cyprus. 💟
James, I take it this does not apply if a TRV like the Drayton TRV4 is used where the balancing flow can be adjusted within the TRV valve and the normal lockshield end is left fully open. Underneath the big adjusting temperature head there is another adjuster ring that restricts flow by using a special key. If someone installed one of these previously and set the TRV4 to its lowest restriction then no amount of fiddling with the lockshield will increase flow.
just picked up on something you were saying when talking about the auto balance valve "the boiler likes a bit of hot flow returning to it as it helps with the condensing" my understanding is that the return to the boiler wants to be as cold as possible. it starts condensing at 55c (might be wrong on that figure, doing it from memory) flow return but.... the lower the temp of the return the more condensing it does. how does having hot water in the return help condensing? in my experience due to the proximity of the trv to the radiator TRV don't really measure room temperature, the heat from the radiator completely overwhelms them (i do have data somewhere to back this up too)
Absolutely brilliant video, well done fella! I was in the same situation with a north facing bedroom that is over a garage. The radiator never really got hot. It was also the furthest radiator from the boiler. I've just been round and balanced all the rads as per this video (most were wide open). What a difference this has made. Fantastic and thank you for de-mystifying rad balancing!!!!
It only needs one radiator to have its balancing valve fully open, to return hot water to the boiler and shut it off, not to mention starving the other radiators of pressure. The easiest method is to first turn every valve fully off, then open it a quarter turn. You can then start to balance things up, by adjusting the valves a fraction of a turn at a time, then waiting 30 minutes for the result. Needless to say, you have plenty of time for cups of tea and if things go belly up, just start again. I use the same method in large commercial buildings, where the boilers are putting out megawatts of heat. It is just a matter of keeping a clear image of the entire installation in your mind.
@@wilsjanewhich would you want fully open, the problem one? And which would you start the opening a quarter turn to initiate balancing with - the one furthest from boiler?
@@Horizon301. Before starting, bleed every radiator to remove any air and check the system pressure. Before turning the boiler on, turn every thermostatic valve to maximum and set all the lockshields to a quarter turn. Then switch the system on. Walk around as the system starts to heat, to check that every radiator starts warming up at the thermostat first. Then walk around every few minutes to check the progress of the heat across the radiators. Those that are hot right down to the lockshield within about 5 minutes are fine. If a radiator fully heats faster than that, reduce the lockshield by a few degrees, while any that are taking longer, (normally the larger radiators) can be opened a few degrees. Leave for about 30 minutes, then to check. Feel the top of the radiator near the water entry, then at the exit valve. The temperature should be a few degrees lower, but not noticeably cool. Then you can fine tune the lockshield where necessary. When you have finished, all radiators will have water available when required and none will be running flow temperature water back to the boiler while starving others. If any radiator is not responding correctly, the thermostatic valve may have a jammed pin that needs to be replaced or cleaned. NEVER try to compensate this by opening the lockshield, or you will unbalance the system. Finally set the thermostatic valves to set the rooms to the desired temperatures. All this is an awful lot simpler than it sounds and you will develop a clear mental image of where the water is going. Once you have completed it a few times, you will feel confident to tackle any system, from a bungalow to an office block, since they all obey the same basic principals. Set up correctly, the boiler will have a cycle to match the load and you may then want to adjust the burner to prevent short cycling. This can save quite a lot or fuel.
It's a bleeding pest needing to bleed the radiators and driving the air out of the system but it needs to be done to get the most out of your energy consumption?
I changed my TRVs a couple of years ago after changing the boiler. I now use the Hive programable valves which effectively make each radiator a separate zone. They also control the boiler when heat is required. These so far have made the house a lot more comfortable in that we can program heat to, for example, our bedroom and on-suite for an hour before we get up and the it's nice and toasty, likewise we can shut the heat off in rooms we don't use for most of the day and only heat them when we do. The app is not the best but it works. I'd be interested to see if you have come across them or used them. Also when I refitted my utility room I fitted a SureStop on the rising main above the normal stop tap. Having had a burst pipe a few years ago and my wife being unable to turn off the stop tap it seems worthwhile for emergency use. Again if you have used or come across them I would be interested.
Good overview. We just had a heat pump installed (which is working really well) but a few of the rads were not balanced properly. Took me a while but I think I’ve managed to get a heat drop of 5C across each rad.
For the 22mm gatevalve on the cylinder coil return I find anything over one full turn is pretty much fully open. Gatevalves are pretty useless at restricting flow imo.
Interesting. Our heating system was playing up last year. The boiler kept running up then switching off with a fault code referring to inlet and outlet temperature difference. I thought it as a sensor in the boiler. Was baffling me until one day I was in the airing cupboard and accidentally touched my elbow on the CH pump. It was red hot - way hotter than it should be. Turns out it was slowly seizing up and struggled with flow. £40 later with a used one from eBay installed everything was sorted.
an absolute gentleperson customer. in different times, I'd be rolling the coffee too. as it stands, I'd probably bring it to you in a paper cup after you were done or adjourned and were cleared to doff the respirator.
I suspect the owner perhaps opened all the lockshields up to try and fix the problem themselves? Re the sticking TRV pin, don't be tempted to pull them with your pliers... they come out and result in a fine spray of black water across your cream carpets! Safest approach is to use a teaspoon on the top of the pin (i.e. the bowled bit of the spoon which holds the sugar etc) and just push in and let it spring back out on its own. Re the bypass, mine was letting nearly all the flow back to the boiler, bypassing the rads entirely. I wound it in but it made no difference so I just took it out and capped it off as my boiler has one built in (Vaillant eco 635), yet still the flow was quite bad. I then found the boiler bypass (the one within the boiler) could be adjusted and gave it a tweak so that it would block more flow and voila: hot radiators all round. I'd spent months scratching my head and several plumbers too, but that's what fixed it for me. The plumber who installed it had never bothered to adjust it properly. Sharing as bit may help others in a similar fix.
Great video very informative BUT you missed out when balancing rads make sure that the trvs are on the flow and fitted correctly, and on the Cylinder the value is called a bypass value, other wise well done, I'm an old heating engineer.
With no hydraulic separation the underfloor heating may draw more than its share of water from the heating system in competition with the radiators. The type of manifold fitted at this property is for high temperatures and the boiler temperature needs to be set high
@@armslength2618 it depends upon the flow rates from the boiler and into the circuits. To supply an affinity to an underfloor heating system the supply temperature to the manifold must be greater than the manifolds return by the Delta t of the boiler. Any less than the underfloor heating system will fail to heat correctly. At the same time we're trying to minimise the flow temperature from the boiler to maximise condensing efficiency. For this balancing act to be accurate we need hydraulic separation and a low loss header sensor
The guy did say that it stopped working after the boiler switched off and back on again, so it’d be interesting to know if it’s still sorted in a weeks time.
I balance each radiator as a percentage of the largest, in relation to their water content. Basically largest radiator lockshield open to 80% with the thermostatic rad valve set for the room temperature 2 usually 16 degrees bedroom 3 18 degrees kitchen, bathroom etc. Many year's ago checked this method with a 10/11 degree difference flow/return across each radiator on warm up came out the same. The restrictor on the cylinder is usually 1.5 turns open at the point where it goes quite. I won't tell you what Mr Combi says about the balance valve on cylinders as it goes against everything I was taught, many year's ago and that would be criticising. 😀😁😂
Fantastic video! I knew next to nothing prior to watching this video about boiler systems and now i feel i have a good grasp on how it works. Thank you.
Brilliant work m8, 2 add ins, check the gas rate of heat source so u know it is producing correct heat. Test flow and return at boiler for differential heat accuracy, will tell u pump speed if correct and whether u have system design issues. But really great video.🎉
First view of you….really sound and whilst this is not my area of knowledge and practice, I found it really interesting and informative. I really liked your straight forward information and professionalism…..esp when referring to previous plumbers.
I had a cottage where the radiators furthest from the boiler never really got hot. Balancing improved it a tad but it wasn't a complete cure. It turned out the pipework was too small to get the heat to the 2 rooms. Replacing the pipes i.e. 15mm to 22mm cured the problem.
Best heating related video that I have ever seen. Based on your video I have fixed the exact same problem that you had on this call out. Thank you so much, you are an absolute diamond !
Needs a low loss header or CCT’s. You have both rads and UFH working at different DTs. The UFH is robbing flow from the rads. Unless of course the UFH has separation built in?
4:53 Could you use an infrared camera to see what’s under the floor? (Just what’s popped up in my head while watching) Ah, that’s what you’re doing at 11:53 😁
Nice one, I've been messing about with my radiators for years and think this has finally rounded out my misinformed conceptions .. clarity at last! Thanks!
Had the same issue on my ex council house. Main runs to front and rear of the house were 15mm supplying 4 rads each. Changed these to 22mm and things improved dramatically.
TRVs sort of confuse me when it comes to efficiency because using one is counter to thermodynamic efficiency. The way to improve efficiency is to reduce any throttling effect - basically increase flow - and drop the temperature of the heating water. It's hard to see it on a domestic system quickly but I was an engineer on a steam VLCC way back and we burned around 160tonnes of fuel a day. Given that's a considerable amount of wedge being burned, running a high pressure boiler as efficiently as possible makes a huge and very quickly noticed difference. So, as we achieved the desired cruising speed what we did wàs gradually open up the main steam valve whilst at the same time drop the boiler temperature and pressure with the target being a fully open steam valve to the main turbines and the boiler pressure matching the desired speed. It saved a lot of oil per day. So when I renovated my house I ripped out the entire heating and water system and replaced the lot. I used more and bigger rads than required, used bigger pipework wherever I could and and reduced any throttling effect as far as possible with as many radiator valves fully open as I could get. I then set the boiler to the lowest temperature allowed which it could be set. This is the most thermodynamically efficient way to heat water.
Boosted the heating at 10.28 and announced it's been an hour or so at 12.52... I hope he doesn't expect an invoice for an hour or so labour! Great video James. As Andrew mentioned below, the UFH could also be robbing heat from the radiator circuit but it seems you're a good bit further down the road to a better balanced system. Good work Mate... Hold tight!
i Lived In An Apartment Building That Had Boiler Heat! It Was Built In The 40's And Had Glass Door Knobs! But Every morning At 4:00 AM They Had The Boiler Come On! It Ran The Entire Building of 30 Apartments! By The Time I Got Up For Work At 5 The Apartment Was Toasty! I Live With Gas Heat Now As My Central Unit Went out And I Dont Have 5,000 Dollars Or More! To Heat My Home When It Is Below 40 F It Takes About 4 US Dollars Per Day! I Plan On Doing Mini-Splits When Spring Rolls Around!
Do those hot water tank thermostats still fail on? Or was my old system just set up wierd because that always baffled me. Fond memories of opening the hot tap and just steam coming out.
Yes, as a starter for 10, have the lockshields all 1/4 open, and TRVs on max. Leave it about 30-40 mins, and if any rad is still cool, then open it slightly, maybe another 1/8 turn max, and wait about 20 mins to see if it gets hot.
Great video . Can you tell what the story is wit the expansion vessel . I allways see that they are fitted what I call upside-down. We allways had to fit them the otherway around. For the reason that the water will tuch the membrane. In the Inglish way there will be an air cussion . So what is the story ?
So glad I found your site. You are a fantastic plumber. That appears to me (I'm not a plumber or HVAC guy) to be a complicated system but you are obviously knowledgeble with it. Thanks for a great video. I'm from the US so all this is very interesting to me.
Excellent video. I don't have the knowledge or skills to tinker with my heating system, but you gave me the confidence to balance the rads and adjust the TRV's to the most appropriate settings.
Great video plumberparts. Can anyone tell me why the convention seems to be to put the circulating pump after the boiler (on the hot side) and in this case at the system high point, it’s almost as if people want the pump to airlock (lets be honest, automatic vents only work properly for the first few years). Also Hot water has a lower vapour pressure so the pump is more inclined to cavitate. IMHO the pump should be on the cold side (return) with the header tank or pressure vessel connected on the pump inlet and the delivery feeding the boiler. This means the pump is pumping lower temperature water and since the pressure vessel is on the inlet then the pump should almost never air lock and tend not to cavitate as much. Thanks.
Thankyou for a really informative video. I think most of my trv's are at 6 and i never new about balancing the other valves so I will be going around and setting them all to a 1/4 turn.
I stopped using gatevalves for flow control e.g. on the primary return, back in the mid 1980's, they are not designed for that purpose, I use DRV's, a bit more expensive but virtually tamperproof. I would only reduce the flow temp to 60 deg.c if I knew that the radiators were sized for that Delta T. A good demonstration of the benefits of investing in a good thermal imaging camera, far quicker than using 2 Rototherms😊
Hi James, use your temp sensor to measure the flow and return temps from the boiler and each rad, it should have a 10°C difference generally, the closer the temps the more you close the LSV down and hence the terminal rad should be full open. I enjoyed the video, good man.
I've heard this as well, it's the temperature drop from flow to return that is balanced by adjusting the lock shield. The further the rad from boiler generally needs the lock shield opened a bit more to increase flow, so I don't quite understand why all rads have only quarter turn open. Good video mind as always from James.
This was what I always thought. Closest rad to the boiler should only be open a crack, then opening more and more as you move away from the boiler. Final rad fully open, as you want cooler water back to the boiler for condensation.
I've lived in my current property for 10 years and have just put up with the fact that some radiators either didn't get warm or took forever to do so. I had the TRVs set properly, but most of the lock shields were open fully. I've adjusted them as suggested and now all rads heat up evenly. Can't believe how simple the solution was.
Good work, though as a heat pump guy i'm not really satisfied with the shortcuts in balancing the system. Don't get me wrong, for a gas boiler or electric system it's completely fine. But if you're working with heat pumps you really need to know that you have the proper flow through each radiator to get it to run efficiently.
Sigh - all ours are set to maximum - and very few of the rads are getting warm. Thanks James. Now all I have to do is get the Wife to watch the last 30 secs of this video ;)
Hi I have problem with the downstairs radiator next to the front door (I live in an upstairs flat 1st floor) two years ago my old Bosch Worcester green star got condemned and ripped out I had many major issues with it over the years but this issue I didn’t have at the time. I had a new valiant eco fit sustain boiler to replace the old one and I have tried everything to get this radiator to get hot! As like this house it just get warm and that’s it, but all the others upstairs are boiling hot you can’t touch them for long. I have it set to 63c Usually 60 or 55c but it’s been cold lately so needed a bit more heat then normal. I have bleed out the radiator I have set it to full! I have bleed out all the others even though they were fine no air pressure is half way sure it’s 1.5bar I think not 100% sure. And it’s just refuses to get hot and that area and the bathroom are the coldest parts of the flat. I have people out who infact some how made it all worse…. 😩🙄 Do you think if check the balance on it , will it make a difference? And they messed my thermostat valves up and some don’t turn off or to hot! They did not have a clue and I didn’t watch them they just said it’s fixed now but soon as the heating went off turn it back on it’s back the same again. After 2 years it’s really annoying me now. Sorry for the A4 page comment 😂🤦🏻♂️ But I asked another plumber on here and no one’s got back to me yet with an answer ? But I am convinced after watching this video that’s both ends of the radiators are the problem and those boys made it worse as the boiler is great. And works fine and passed its test not so long ago. But forgot to mention to him about this issue as it was summer.
Very Informative video James, just saved us lots of wonga sorting my sons heating, eleven rads in his new house 3 stayed cold despite balancing, did the stuck pin check on thermostats, and that was the problem, sorted out with push and pull and a drop of wd40, a massive chuffty badge to you, and a thousand thankyous.
There was me measuring flow and return temps on each rad for a 11 degree difference, and all I needed to do was wind down the lock shield valve and open it a quarter turn 😮
Gonna check the balance on my rads as I’m sure all mine are open a full turn. Probably why the ones in the front room which are furthest from the boiler don’t get as hot as expected with the stat fully open. A well explained tutorial thanks, and all in layman’s terms.
In my experience most lockshields are quite useless at restricting flow once they are opened more than 1/2 a turn from closed, so a lockshield open one full turn or more is as good as fully open.
The installs that I have had to do with as a homeowner (the first one I designed and built myself) all leveraged a manifold on both sides of the circuits (zones) all with thermostatically controlled ball valves on each circuit so that you can isolate each circuit from one place ... using a single pump which allows to test shutdown during no need for both the boiler and the pump, make-up water, air bleed valve, able to force flow to an individual circuit to push the air through, test temps out and return, verify the ball valve physical function as they have a lever for thermostat bypass, etc. so that wearing the carpet out wasn't necessary. I have never used radiators ... air trapping could conceivably be an issue but shouldn't that be satisfied by air bleed valves on each radiator? While looking at systems in houses for sale, I see that there's a tendency to use multiple pumps instead of zone ball valves but that seems to be overkill, adding expense and non isolating (unless you add a gate/ball valve) ... some modern ideas leave me wondering if the engineers were designing FOR obsolescence ... I should mention I live in western Canada.
I am no plumber, but was of the understanding that at least one of the rads should be "open" ie no TRV as if they all closed off the boiler would be dependant on it's own stat to shut off with no water flow! I have my own rads balanced at half open and any that did not get the room hot opened up a bit more. Your way seems to work well though! ;o)
Nicely explained and will be checking mine after the service has been completed , Question got a slight drip on a strap boss in the soil pipe any tips for stopping it besides ripping the soil pipe out,please and thank you 👍👍👍👍
If you can get it really clean and Dry, you could try gap cement. Once you have it clean and dry run a brush with 'solvent weld' around the joint a few times then build up with 'gap filling cement' and let it dry for an hour.
So... balancing. I assume that if you open the taps all the way on the balancing valves, the room that doesn't get any heat is the only one that should have its taps left open, and the rest should have their taps closed until the cold room gets hot without the other rooms going cold - and a room that should not be heated at all (then why does it have a hydronic heating appliance in the first place?) should have the balancing valves closed all the way? TLV it seems like is a brand name. What's the generic term? Is it right to think of them as throttles?
Brilliant video. I've not got anything as complicated as that in my house, but I always love to learn. I'm a Civil Engineer and was not taught plumbing. The pin check was great to know. More videos please?
A good video for homeowners but if you are plumber please don't set the bypass with a trickle back to the boiler plus there is no mention of the important things like heatloss, mass flow rate, pipe sizing,pump sizing hydraulic separation on underfloor also what is a strangulation valve?
Makes me appreciate my central HVAC system that much more lol. Thats a pretty complicated system with A LOT that can go wrong. I've lived 50yrs without heated floors and radiators and have survived just fine lol I know radiators were a common thing years ago and some places still utilizes them.
Great video mate. Thanks for sharing. You've mentioned self balancing valves were not set correctly but you didn't show this in the video. Perhaps you could share when you get a mo? Thanks mate 👍🏻
The customer mentioned having auto balancing valves. Under the TRV you may find the auto balancing valve hasn’t been set for the size of rad. When you fit these auto balancing valves you have the return lock shield wide open, which you’ve shut down
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Hope you enjoyed this video guys!
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Sometimes i think the old systems were best but so unregulated per zone. This system is a marvel, however sooo many things to go wrong making the homeowner a symphonic conductor to his household heating system keeping that fine tune in check. I'm glad you tuned this system in this beautiful home. Thanks to the owner for being so gracious to share it with us.
I agree with not slagging off previous plumbers. We have all been there when you get plumbers block and can't clear your head. It needs a fresh head to visit the job..
Cheers man. It’s so true! I’ve been there too. 😂
i am 100% capable of getting something wrong this is why i never slag any other tradesman off
But they were happy to take his money! If they couldn’t ‘clear their head’ they shouldn’t have charged him, simple
Well said 👏
“Don’t slag other plumbers off, but what were they thinking” 😉
What an interesting and educational video. Each and every plumber in the land should be made to watch this one, and several times over for some of them.
It certainly is a great teaching tool.
Automatic bypass valve was what you couldn't remember ! Great video. Nice to see some decent P&H engineers still exist.
You are a good man. What you said was true and so much more respectful of previous plumbers than I might have been.
I've just balanced my radiators, and now my heating and hot water is working better than it has in months! Thanks dude, you're a lifesaver!
Why bother with balancing if you have TRVs? My lockshield valves are all fully open and things work fine.
@@rogerphelps9939 Why bother with thinking when you have a smooth brain?
I'll have you know that I have engineering and maths degrees from one of the world's top STEM institutions Imperial College London which has produced several Nobel Laureates. They teach you critical thinking skills.. How about you.?Passed your GCSEa yet?@@HRRRRRDRRRRR
Been a plumber for fifty years, not to up on the heating , so love your videos , all ways nice to be a friendly joking plumber , unlike some of my dower plumbing mates, all the world is a stage ha ha
All the world's indeed a stage and we are merely plumbers. With putty and with spanners. Each another's critic. Beyond the seized up pump. - Bill Wobbleystick.
At 18:40...SO TRUE! It is so unprofessional to slag off a previous operatives work; in any trade. I have left a customer's house before now at 10 at night and told them "brain is fried - I'll be back in the morning". The only time I'll comment on previous work is when it is actually dangerous (I'm a sparks, I follow James's channel out of interest) Even then, a quiet explanation is all that is normally needed; not a hissy fit - that just disturbs the client to no win for anyone.
Cheers man - you’ll love my next video, a collab with Artisan Electrics (Lee and Luke)
Great video. I have a similar problem, with all rads on 6, so todays job is radiator balancing!! Cheers!
Thank you James! I learnt so much I didn’t even know! I’m going round balancing all my rads as I was one of those culprits that had all TRVs set to 6 😂
Fantastic!
There's another way?!
My background was soot juggling as an industrial heating engineer but office blocks shared the same basic system as found in homes. Half an hour cranking down fully open lock shield valves and Bobs your dads uncle. Don't really miss cranking up three stage half a megaWatt oil fired boilers or warm air heaters. 👍 Regards from Cyprus. 💟
Never knew heating systems had so much going on...id use you all the time if i had a problem, you seem to be on top of your game
25:20 All fun and games when pin pulls out..Done that before 😅😂
sometimes its just a fresh pair of eyes and going through the system just like you did great video
James, I take it this does not apply if a TRV like the Drayton TRV4 is used where the balancing flow can be adjusted within the TRV valve and the normal lockshield end is left fully open. Underneath the big adjusting temperature head there is another adjuster ring that restricts flow by using a special key. If someone installed one of these previously and set the TRV4 to its lowest restriction then no amount of fiddling with the lockshield will increase flow.
just picked up on something you were saying when talking about the auto balance valve "the boiler likes a bit of hot flow returning to it as it helps with the condensing"
my understanding is that the return to the boiler wants to be as cold as possible. it starts condensing at 55c (might be wrong on that figure, doing it from memory) flow return but.... the lower the temp of the return the more condensing it does.
how does having hot water in the return help condensing?
in my experience due to the proximity of the trv to the radiator TRV don't really measure room temperature, the heat from the radiator completely overwhelms them (i do have data somewhere to back this up too)
Thank you. Very informative and entertaining. You should be in films! 😊
Another Very informative vid. Old man’s knowledge, with a teenage face. How blessed you are 😂.
Absolutely brilliant video, well done fella!
I was in the same situation with a north facing bedroom that is over a garage. The radiator never really got hot. It was also the furthest radiator from the boiler. I've just been round and balanced all the rads as per this video (most were wide open). What a difference this has made. Fantastic and thank you for de-mystifying rad balancing!!!!
It only needs one radiator to have its balancing valve fully open, to return hot water to the boiler and shut it off, not to mention starving the other radiators of pressure.
The easiest method is to first turn every valve fully off, then open it a quarter turn.
You can then start to balance things up, by adjusting the valves a fraction of a turn at a time, then waiting 30 minutes for the result. Needless to say, you have plenty of time for cups of tea and if things go belly up, just start again.
I use the same method in large commercial buildings, where the boilers are putting out megawatts of heat. It is just a matter of keeping a clear image of the entire installation in your mind.
@@wilsjanewhich would you want fully open, the problem one? And which would you start the opening a quarter turn to initiate balancing with - the one furthest from boiler?
@@Horizon301. Before starting, bleed every radiator to remove any air and check the system pressure. Before turning the boiler on, turn every thermostatic valve to maximum and set all the lockshields to a quarter turn.
Then switch the system on.
Walk around as the system starts to heat, to check that every radiator starts warming up at the thermostat first. Then walk around every few minutes to check the progress of the heat across the radiators. Those that are hot right down to the lockshield within about 5 minutes are fine. If a radiator fully heats faster than that, reduce the lockshield by a few degrees, while any that are taking longer, (normally the larger radiators) can be opened a few degrees.
Leave for about 30 minutes, then to check.
Feel the top of the radiator near the water entry, then at the exit valve. The temperature should be a few degrees lower, but not noticeably cool. Then you can fine tune the lockshield where necessary.
When you have finished, all radiators will have water available when required and none will be running flow temperature water back to the boiler while starving others.
If any radiator is not responding correctly, the thermostatic valve may have a jammed pin that needs to be replaced or cleaned. NEVER try to compensate this by opening the lockshield, or you will unbalance the system.
Finally set the thermostatic valves to set the rooms to the desired temperatures.
All this is an awful lot simpler than it sounds and you will develop a clear mental image of where the water is going.
Once you have completed it a few times, you will feel confident to tackle any system, from a bungalow to an office block, since they all obey the same basic principals.
Set up correctly, the boiler will have a cycle to match the load and you may then want to adjust the burner to prevent short cycling. This can save quite a lot or fuel.
It's a bleeding pest needing to bleed the radiators and driving the air out of the system but it needs to be done to get the most out of your energy consumption?
Very well explained. Naw my rads are balanced, I can hear the water flowing through them, is that good or bad?
I changed my TRVs a couple of years ago after changing the boiler. I now use the Hive programable valves which effectively make each radiator a separate zone. They also control the boiler when heat is required. These so far have made the house a lot more comfortable in that we can program heat to, for example, our bedroom and on-suite for an hour before we get up and the it's nice and toasty, likewise we can shut the heat off in rooms we don't use for most of the day and only heat them when we do. The app is not the best but it works. I'd be interested to see if you have come across them or used them.
Also when I refitted my utility room I fitted a SureStop on the rising main above the normal stop tap. Having had a burst pipe a few years ago and my wife being unable to turn off the stop tap it seems worthwhile for emergency use. Again if you have used or come across them I would be interested.
Good overview. We just had a heat pump installed (which is working really well) but a few of the rads were not balanced properly. Took me a while but I think I’ve managed to get a heat drop of 5C across each rad.
For the 22mm gatevalve on the cylinder coil return I find anything over one full turn is pretty much fully open. Gatevalves are pretty useless at restricting flow imo.
True!
Lovely house tbf
did most of this but also had issues with air so the radiator was hot at the bottom on a couple but well explained thank you
Interesting. Our heating system was playing up last year. The boiler kept running up then switching off with a fault code referring to inlet and outlet temperature difference. I thought it as a sensor in the boiler. Was baffling me until one day I was in the airing cupboard and accidentally touched my elbow on the CH pump. It was red hot - way hotter than it should be. Turns out it was slowly seizing up and struggled with flow. £40 later with a used one from eBay installed everything was sorted.
an absolute gentleperson customer. in different times, I'd be rolling the coffee too. as it stands, I'd probably bring it to you in a paper cup after you were done or adjourned and were cleared to doff the respirator.
I suspect the owner perhaps opened all the lockshields up to try and fix the problem themselves? Re the sticking TRV pin, don't be tempted to pull them with your pliers... they come out and result in a fine spray of black water across your cream carpets! Safest approach is to use a teaspoon on the top of the pin (i.e. the bowled bit of the spoon which holds the sugar etc) and just push in and let it spring back out on its own. Re the bypass, mine was letting nearly all the flow back to the boiler, bypassing the rads entirely. I wound it in but it made no difference so I just took it out and capped it off as my boiler has one built in (Vaillant eco 635), yet still the flow was quite bad. I then found the boiler bypass (the one within the boiler) could be adjusted and gave it a tweak so that it would block more flow and voila: hot radiators all round. I'd spent months scratching my head and several plumbers too, but that's what fixed it for me. The plumber who installed it had never bothered to adjust it properly. Sharing as bit may help others in a similar fix.
You never know! On the TRV pins I just give them a wiggle, having had a pin fly out when tapped with a hammer!
Great video very informative BUT you missed out when balancing rads make sure that the trvs are on the flow and fitted correctly, and on the Cylinder the value is called a bypass value, other wise well done, I'm an old heating engineer.
With no hydraulic separation the underfloor heating may draw more than its share of water from the heating system in competition with the radiators. The type of manifold fitted at this property is for high temperatures and the boiler temperature needs to be set high
@@armslength2618 it depends upon the flow rates from the boiler and into the circuits. To supply an affinity to an underfloor heating system the supply temperature to the manifold must be greater than the manifolds return by the Delta t of the boiler. Any less than the underfloor heating system will fail to heat correctly. At the same time we're trying to minimise the flow temperature from the boiler to maximise condensing efficiency. For this balancing act to be accurate we need hydraulic separation and a low loss header sensor
@@armslength2618 not steam. Just high water above condensing temperature.
The guy did say that it stopped working after the boiler switched off and back on again, so it’d be interesting to know if it’s still sorted in a weeks time.
He text just a few days ago to say all was still well. Seeing him again soon as he’s coming on to my channel @lifeindeep
@@plumberparts hold tight!
I balance each radiator as a percentage of the largest, in relation to their water content. Basically largest radiator lockshield open to 80% with the thermostatic rad valve set for the room temperature 2 usually 16 degrees bedroom 3 18 degrees kitchen, bathroom etc. Many year's ago checked this method with a 10/11 degree difference flow/return across each radiator on warm up came out the same. The restrictor on the cylinder is usually 1.5 turns open at the point where it goes quite. I won't tell you what Mr Combi says about the balance valve on cylinders as it goes against everything I was taught, many year's ago and that would be criticising. 😀😁😂
Good video I've just gone around all mine seem to be lot hotter upstairs now cheers 👍
The best plumber, heating engineer on RUclips !!
Very natural presenter.
Besides all the plumbing and fine-tuning... what a clean house!!
Beautiful home
Fantastic video! I knew next to nothing prior to watching this video about boiler systems and now i feel i have a good grasp on how it works. Thank you.
Best radiator balancing video I've seen. Looks like you're off the Red Bull too James 🤣
Top notch!
Great informative video James and what a lovely property - so jealous.
Brilliant work m8,
2 add ins, check the gas rate of heat source so u know it is producing correct heat.
Test flow and return at boiler for differential heat accuracy, will tell u pump speed if correct and whether u have system design issues.
But really great video.🎉
Took all my TRV's out, as nobody seemed to shut doors, This was an excellent video thank you.
First view of you….really sound and whilst this is not my area of knowledge and practice, I found it really interesting and informative. I really liked your straight forward information and professionalism…..esp when referring to previous plumbers.
That was brilliant! Lovely house too 👍🏼
I had a cottage where the radiators furthest from the boiler never really got hot. Balancing improved it a tad but it wasn't a complete cure. It turned out the pipework was too small to get the heat to the 2 rooms. Replacing the pipes i.e. 15mm to 22mm cured the problem.
Very good informative and detailed video in balancing the heating system. Thank you
Best heating related video that I have ever seen. Based on your video I have fixed the exact same problem that you had on this call out. Thank you so much, you are an absolute diamond !
Needs a low loss header or CCT’s. You have both rads and UFH working at different DTs.
The UFH is robbing flow from the rads.
Unless of course the UFH has separation built in?
All fixed now, but a LLH does sort most systems out!
I learn a lot , thank you brother 🙏❤️👍
My pleasure
Such a tidy and well organised system, oh dear. And very handsome boots.
4:53 Could you use an infrared camera to see what’s under the floor? (Just what’s popped up in my head while watching)
Ah, that’s what you’re doing at 11:53 😁
Nice one, I've been messing about with my radiators for years and think this has finally rounded out my misinformed conceptions .. clarity at last! Thanks!
Good luck!
Had the same issue on my ex council house. Main runs to front and rear of the house were 15mm supplying 4 rads each. Changed these to 22mm and things improved dramatically.
TRVs sort of confuse me when it comes to efficiency because using one is counter to thermodynamic efficiency. The way to improve efficiency is to reduce any throttling effect - basically increase flow - and drop the temperature of the heating water. It's hard to see it on a domestic system quickly but I was an engineer on a steam VLCC way back and we burned around 160tonnes of fuel a day. Given that's a considerable amount of wedge being burned, running a high pressure boiler as efficiently as possible makes a huge and very quickly noticed difference. So, as we achieved the desired cruising speed what we did wàs gradually open up the main steam valve whilst at the same time drop the boiler temperature and pressure with the target being a fully open steam valve to the main turbines and the boiler pressure matching the desired speed. It saved a lot of oil per day.
So when I renovated my house I ripped out the entire heating and water system and replaced the lot. I used more and bigger rads than required, used bigger pipework wherever I could and and reduced any throttling effect as far as possible with as many radiator valves fully open as I could get. I then set the boiler to the lowest temperature allowed which it could be set. This is the most thermodynamically efficient way to heat water.
Boosted the heating at 10.28 and announced it's been an hour or so at 12.52... I hope he doesn't expect an invoice for an hour or so labour! Great video James. As Andrew mentioned below, the UFH could also be robbing heat from the radiator circuit but it seems you're a good bit further down the road to a better balanced system. Good work Mate... Hold tight!
Also, IMI Hydronics makes self-balancing valves, I believe they also manufacture the cores in the new Danfoss self-balancing TRV's.
i Lived In An Apartment Building That Had Boiler Heat! It Was Built In The 40's And Had Glass Door Knobs! But Every morning At 4:00 AM They Had The Boiler Come On! It Ran The Entire Building of 30 Apartments! By The Time I Got Up For Work At 5 The Apartment Was Toasty! I Live With Gas Heat Now As My Central Unit Went out And I Dont Have 5,000 Dollars Or More! To Heat My Home When It Is Below 40 F It Takes About 4 US Dollars Per Day! I Plan On Doing Mini-Splits When Spring Rolls Around!
Legs don't feel the cold but they do drastically affect how to core feels. Best way to warm up is to cover the legs or add a thermal layer to them.
so glad I've found this video! Mate - you are a lifesaver! sorted out my system doing this - great videos also!
Great video. Do you work in Hertfordshire? Thanks 🙏
Do those hot water tank thermostats still fail on? Or was my old system just set up wierd because that always baffled me. Fond memories of opening the hot tap and just steam coming out.
is that just them trv's or does that work with all ?
How does opening them all 1/4 turn make them balanced? Do you not have to measure pressure at each one? Or are they in series?
James, are all the radiators in a house opened up a quarter turn on the lockshield? Or do you open them all differently?
Yes, as a starter for 10, have the lockshields all 1/4 open, and TRVs on max.
Leave it about 30-40 mins, and if any rad is still cool, then open it slightly, maybe another 1/8 turn max, and wait about 20 mins to see if it gets hot.
Is it a new boiler is meant to work with smaller pipe sizes than the old one.
Great video . Can you tell what the story is wit the expansion vessel . I allways see that they are fitted what I call upside-down. We allways had to fit them the otherway around. For the reason that the water will tuch the membrane. In the Inglish way there will be an air cussion . So what is the story ?
Confused that there’s both rads and UFH. Is that a common setup? In the same room I mean, I see how you might rads in some rooms and UFH in others.
So glad I found your site. You are a fantastic plumber. That appears to me (I'm not a plumber or HVAC guy) to be a complicated system but you are obviously knowledgeble with it. Thanks for a great video. I'm from the US so all this is very interesting to me.
Excellent video. I don't have the knowledge or skills to tinker with my heating system, but you gave me the confidence to balance the rads and adjust the TRV's to the most appropriate settings.
Great video plumberparts. Can anyone tell me why the convention seems to be to put the circulating pump after the boiler (on the hot side) and in this case at the system high point, it’s almost as if people want the pump to airlock (lets be honest, automatic vents only work properly for the first few years). Also Hot water has a lower vapour pressure so the pump is more inclined to cavitate. IMHO the pump should be on the cold side (return) with the header tank or pressure vessel connected on the pump inlet and the delivery feeding the boiler. This means the pump is pumping lower temperature water and since the pressure vessel is on the inlet then the pump should almost never air lock and tend not to cavitate as much. Thanks.
Thankyou for a really informative video. I think most of my trv's are at 6 and i never new about balancing the other valves so I will be going around and setting them all to a 1/4 turn.
I stopped using gatevalves for flow control e.g. on the primary return, back in the mid 1980's, they are not designed for that purpose, I use DRV's, a bit more expensive but virtually tamperproof. I would only reduce the flow temp to 60 deg.c if I knew that the radiators were sized for that Delta T. A good demonstration of the benefits of investing in a good thermal imaging camera, far quicker than using 2 Rototherms😊
Hi James, use your temp sensor to measure the flow and return temps from the boiler and each rad, it should have a 10°C difference generally, the closer the temps the more you close the LSV down and hence the terminal rad should be full open. I enjoyed the video, good man.
I've heard this as well, it's the temperature drop from flow to return that is balanced by adjusting the lock shield. The further the rad from boiler generally needs the lock shield opened a bit more to increase flow, so I don't quite understand why all rads have only quarter turn open. Good video mind as always from James.
@@monstermonstermonster2983
Its the same reason the electric showers go cold when some joke flushes the toilet !
This was what I always thought. Closest rad to the boiler should only be open a crack, then opening more and more as you move away from the boiler. Final rad fully open, as you want cooler water back to the boiler for condensation.
I've lived in my current property for 10 years and have just put up with the fact that some radiators either didn't get warm or took forever to do so.
I had the TRVs set properly, but most of the lock shields were open fully. I've adjusted them as suggested and now all rads heat up evenly. Can't believe how simple the solution was.
Good work, though as a heat pump guy i'm not really satisfied with the shortcuts in balancing the system. Don't get me wrong, for a gas boiler or electric system it's completely fine. But if you're working with heat pumps you really need to know that you have the proper flow through each radiator to get it to run efficiently.
Great advice I enjoy your videos ,can you send details of your thermal camera please.
Sigh - all ours are set to maximum - and very few of the rads are getting warm. Thanks James. Now all I have to do is get the Wife to watch the last 30 secs of this video ;)
Hi I have problem with the downstairs radiator next to the front door (I live in an upstairs flat 1st floor) two years ago my old Bosch Worcester green star got condemned and ripped out I had many major issues with it over the years but this issue I didn’t have at the time.
I had a new valiant eco fit sustain boiler to replace the old one and I have tried everything to get this radiator to get hot! As like this house it just get warm and that’s it, but all the others upstairs are boiling hot you can’t touch them for long. I have it set to 63c Usually 60 or 55c but it’s been cold lately so needed a bit more heat then normal.
I have bleed out the radiator I have set it to full! I have bleed out all the others even though they were fine no air pressure is half way sure it’s 1.5bar I think not 100% sure. And it’s just refuses to get hot and that area and the bathroom are the coldest parts of the flat.
I have people out who infact some how made it all worse…. 😩🙄
Do you think if check the balance on it , will it make a difference? And they messed my thermostat valves up and some don’t turn off or to hot!
They did not have a clue and I didn’t watch them they just said it’s fixed now but soon as the heating went off turn it back on it’s back the same again.
After 2 years it’s really annoying me now.
Sorry for the A4 page comment 😂🤦🏻♂️
But I asked another plumber on here and no one’s got back to me yet with an answer ?
But I am convinced after watching this video that’s both ends of the radiators are the problem and those boys made it worse as the boiler is great. And works fine and passed its test not so long ago. But forgot to mention to him about this issue as it was summer.
Very Informative video James, just saved us lots of wonga sorting my sons heating, eleven rads in his new house 3 stayed cold despite balancing, did the stuck pin check on thermostats, and that was the problem, sorted out with push and pull and a drop of wd40, a massive chuffty badge to you, and a thousand thankyous.
There was me measuring flow and return temps on each rad for a 11 degree difference, and all I needed to do was wind down the lock shield valve and open it a quarter turn 😮
That was brilliant James .nicely explained and carried out 👍👍👍
Thanks man!
Gonna check the balance on my rads as I’m sure all mine are open a full turn. Probably why the ones in the front room which are furthest from the boiler don’t get as hot as expected with the stat fully open.
A well explained tutorial thanks, and all in layman’s terms.
In my experience most lockshields are quite useless at restricting flow once they are opened more than 1/2 a turn from closed, so a lockshield open one full turn or more is as good as fully open.
The installs that I have had to do with as a homeowner (the first one I designed and built myself) all leveraged a manifold on both sides of the circuits (zones) all with thermostatically controlled ball valves on each circuit so that you can isolate each circuit from one place ... using a single pump which allows to test shutdown during no need for both the boiler and the pump, make-up water, air bleed valve, able to force flow to an individual circuit to push the air through, test temps out and return, verify the ball valve physical function as they have a lever for thermostat bypass, etc. so that wearing the carpet out wasn't necessary. I have never used radiators ... air trapping could conceivably be an issue but shouldn't that be satisfied by air bleed valves on each radiator?
While looking at systems in houses for sale, I see that there's a tendency to use multiple pumps instead of zone ball valves but that seems to be overkill, adding expense and non isolating (unless you add a gate/ball valve) ... some modern ideas leave me wondering if the engineers were designing FOR obsolescence ... I should mention I live in western Canada.
I am no plumber, but was of the understanding that at least one of the rads should be "open" ie no TRV as if they all closed off the boiler would be dependant on it's own stat to shut off with no water flow!
I have my own rads balanced at half open and any that did not get the room hot opened up a bit more. Your way seems to work well though! ;o)
Very well explained and thanks for sharing
Nicely explained and will be checking mine after the service has been completed ,
Question got a slight drip on a strap boss in the soil pipe any tips for stopping it besides ripping the soil pipe out,please and thank you 👍👍👍👍
If you can get it really clean and Dry, you could try gap cement. Once you have it clean and dry run a brush with 'solvent weld' around the joint a few times then build up with 'gap filling cement' and let it dry for an hour.
So... balancing. I assume that if you open the taps all the way on the balancing valves, the room that doesn't get any heat is the only one that should have its taps left open, and the rest should have their taps closed until the cold room gets hot without the other rooms going cold - and a room that should not be heated at all (then why does it have a hydronic heating appliance in the first place?) should have the balancing valves closed all the way?
TLV it seems like is a brand name. What's the generic term? Is it right to think of them as throttles?
Great video Jimmy, a master class. A must for any aspiring plumbers
Thanks man!
Really interesting video. Thank you
Absolutely the time of year for shorts. I ride a bike all year round in shorts. My wife insists on long trousers when we go out together 😂😂
The little touch at the end for the wife was the masterpiece!
Thanks man! 😂
Brilliant video. I've not got anything as complicated as that in my house, but I always love to learn. I'm a Civil Engineer and was not taught plumbing. The pin check was great to know. More videos please?
A good video for homeowners but if you are plumber please don't set the bypass with a trickle back to the boiler plus there is no mention of the important things like heatloss, mass flow rate, pipe sizing,pump sizing hydraulic separation on underfloor also what is a strangulation valve?
Makes me appreciate my central HVAC system that much more lol. Thats a pretty complicated system with A LOT that can go wrong. I've lived 50yrs without heated floors and radiators and have survived just fine lol
I know radiators were a common thing years ago and some places still utilizes them.
"........ should be by the Toilet" 🤣😂 Priceless James!
Great video mate. Thanks for sharing.
You've mentioned self balancing valves were not set correctly but you didn't show this in the video. Perhaps you could share when you get a mo? Thanks mate 👍🏻
Could you use your thermal imaging camera to follow the pipe runs under the floors? Perhaps by looking up at the ceilings?
The customer mentioned having auto balancing valves. Under the TRV you may find the auto balancing valve hasn’t been set for the size of rad. When you fit these auto balancing valves you have the return lock shield wide open, which you’ve shut down
Are these pressure sensitive in action.
Damn but that's good plumbing. Great job boss.
Well done for us people who get lost with rads hope mine get better after watching this
Been on me arse for 26:12 and now on me knees for 4 times longer balancing. Thank you 😅