WoTLK launch changes, P5 PTR, Hunters DST lies, S3 PvP ending early | Prepared #41
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- Опубликовано: 15 июл 2024
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0:00:00 - Intro
0:01:09 - Hunters were wrong on DST and the issue with sims
0:07:37 - The issue with putting 100% faith into sim numbers
0:11:23 - Who should get Nauru sliver first?
0:18:01 - PTR P5 Boss difficulty talk
0:24:39 - Is P5 too early? Is tbc being rushed?
0:32:50 - How will ending early affect S3 PvP?
0:38:32 - Will PvP in WoTLK still be a ‘side character’?
0:41:01 - Sponsor: Manscaped (coupon code ‘prepared’)
0:46:33 - Wrath announced for 2022 (discussion start)
0:48:58 - Brian Birmingham tweets possibility of human racial changes
0:54:30 - Why has Blizzard not confirmed paid faction changes yet
1:00:09 - Is no dungeon finder good or bad for wotlk
1:09:14 - Blizzard confirmed no TBC forever realms planned (som is dying)
1:11:43 - Should Blizzard send SoM players to wrath?
1:15:09 - PvP team system being removed in WoTLK
1:17:50 - Are we excited for WoTLK? Is the hype low?
1:19:55 - Boomers talk about being adults irl
1:21:08 - WoTLK raids being released 1 week AFTER launch
1:23:46 - BT speedrun talk, what’s the state of speedruns in tbc right now?
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The Way Enhance Shaman dmg actually does break down they SHOULD be hard capping hit like rogues
52-55% of there dmg is from auto attack
24-26% of there dmg is from WF procs (which is on special hit cap, but more white hits = more WF procs even with the 3sec ICD)
you guys didnt mention not needing imp EA at a certain point in Sunwell, your way over cap for the majority of bosses with just base sunder
@@jasonu3741 Is this for warriors with executioner or similar? I know for rogues we just swap out WSC and we're not armor pen capping anymore.
@@ClassicRoguecraft 1395 caps you on 6200 armor bosses without ea but with Executioner, I know bruttallus is incapable for everyone except rogues with a gnarly enchant and trinket set up
Tbh i kinda would feel robbed when they change the human racial. Is it OP? maybe. But our servers in TBC went from 70/30 Alii/Horde ratio to 20/80 Alli/Horde ratio. The reason: people on all skillevels agreed that the Horde racials overall are way better than the Alliance ones. Screams for changes were made. Nothing changed. We kept it real "Tbc-style". After that we had the complication, that the queuetimes for Horde player were due to that fact outrageous. What happened? The queue-time issue was fixed. Again the core problem with horde being the objectively better faction wasn´t adressed at all. And i was fine with that. Horde players should also be able to play the game even if the setting was not optimal in my world for the whole player base. And NOW we are having an issue because people dont want to reroll for the "better" pvp racial? It was the exact same case in TBC and noone gave a shit. If you really go the step to "nerf" the human racial, you gotta make sure u nerf all the racials down to "one" level. Either you balance all racials to the same powerlevel or dont touch it all. You can´t just satisfy one certain group of people while leaving out the rest. It feels like if you go on twitter and whine hard enough you will get "heard" by Blizz Devs. I really hope that they think twice about that step and if they choose to take action, that they consider all races/factions by doing so.
To be fair... none of the TBC racials are close to the overpowerness of human racial in WOTLK.
Will of the forsaken for example is COMPLETLY useless against a rogue, a druid, a shaman, a hunter, a paladin.
orc stun resist is completly useless against a warlock a mage a shaman..
Perception is completly useless against classes with no stealth.
Stoneform is also useless against some classes.
But every man for himself, or whatever the fuck they wanna call it for classic, is COMPLETLY overpowered in EVERY single match up and situation becouse it's basically your pvp trinket.
But it's simply overpowered.. it's WAY more than overpowered, becouse WOTLK introduced INSANE trinkets especially in TOC/ICC patch.
Trinkets that are absurd in pvp when stacking 2 of them.
i'ts absolutly stupid to compare any racial with the wotlk human racial in terms of pvp.
it is BY FAR the most overpowered racial in the history of world of warcraft... even if u combine 2-3 racials, human racial will still be stronger... it's basically cheating.
I don't want them to touch it.
But it's laughable when i see people compare TBC horde racials with human racial in wotlk.
I believe that if they kill human racial, then everyone will simply play full horde.
Alliance will still be less than horde on average.. But the overpowerness of human racial will keep them in the play at least.
If they take that away, there's absolutly NOTHING keeping players into the alliance side.
PvErs will already go horde for obvious reasons...if pvpers go there also.. that won't be good.
If they go into this kinda of mentality and they start changing skills, it might ruin the WOTLK experience.
Might be in the minority but I love the speedrun/rogue talk. Love the podcast!
Very good points! Thanks & keep up the great work!!!
01:25:30
i think The biggest issue is the ''Gear Progression''
At the start you're literally Farming Everything to prepare for raid.
after getting pre bis items it's Very natural that you just start to raid log(unless you play arenas or are into 100% completion)
Yes was waiting for this!
They added the race change in after faction changes because people were buying 2 faction changes just to change their race on their preferred faction. At least that is what I was seeing back in retail.
Dungeon finder on server basis was what I thought they would do, with limited cross server to the low pop servers that would need it. I personally prefer tbc, and only tbc and the fact it's ending and I'll lose all hope of getting to stay there saddens me greatly.
Took you long enough grr. Thanks for the upload.
WHere can i read up on this whole Hunter - DST stuff? my guild doesnt believe me unless i deliver some proof
Fury warriors benefit equally if not more to haste because they also rely a lot on procs etc
Flurry
I Dont think its a time constraint, why would they make TBC essentially a SoM server if time is an issue?
Dst game bis for survival hunters apparently. Just sayin
Talk of "community" died with mega servers. I personally don't subscribe to the notion that LFD is saving us from retail. If left to their own devices, players tend to reproduce exactly what they hated to begin with.
I made only human alt in tbc in prep for wotlk. Would suck if they nerf that racial to the ground. They should separate racial trait/skill and estethic.
When it comes to DST hunters still gain the largest overall dps benefit. The delta, or change in dps may not be as high as warrior or rogue but it’s overall more, that’s the point.
Same thing in classic. DFT was a greater delta upgrade for hunters but we were banned from it.
So ya we do have a lil chip on our shoulder but we’re also using your same exact reasoning that you guys did in the previous expac.
I played hunter back in p1-2 in vanilla. Wasnt it just a 2% hit increase and 8 ap over Royal Seal of Eldrethalas? Cant remember if we were hit starved, but i remember it not being a big deal. It was a bigger deal for warriors and rogues as their hit isnt fully capped.
That's actually not true - the initial sims were incorrect and when hunter discord corrected them hunters were lower in both delta and dps upgrade.
Which is part of why a lot of classes now are weary of trusting hunter info.
My personal opinion they could do a couple things to fix LFD 1 Stop people from ninja looting personal loot 2 They want people to try to get groups on their own server 1st make it so It tries for about 2 or 3 minutes on your server 1st if it doesn't find anyone then it goes cross realm.
3 People abusing the kick option Put in a change that was added later in cataclysm Where if you had 3 people in a group There had to be a 4th vote to finally kick the person.
Some people don't like Is teleporting to the dungeon have an option to turn it on or off If LFD comes in it'll discourage ever From making If groups of their own have the rewards increased For example you get 3 badges when you do your heroic daily if you make it yourself make it 5.
With these changes I think LFD would be in a much better state by the way I'm not sure if you guys know about this but today when here they're actually thinking of messing with dual spec.
Yeah I'm not very happy about either one of these changes
Nothing you mentioned would fix any Problem I have with the Dungeon finder.
But let me give you my Problems so may try.
First
The LFD destroys communities, and i don't talk about the sozial aspekt of Random groups. The LFD makes finding a Group so convenient that Random dungeon running will replace running with Guildmates in big parts. Why should I as a Tank with instant invites wait for a full Guild group to form? Why should a Healer do it? Is there any Reason to que with multiple DPS when it will increase que time? All this will Lead to Guildmates running Heroics way mor infrequently.
Second
ANY form of Cross-server makes the disenechant button necesarry or the LFD loot enviroment will become Toxic. This will have heave impact on the economy and devalue enchanting a a profession. Not even talking about fragmenting the community even more.
Third
The Random Dungeon will still brin you to instances you do not want do do, resulting in Occulus/Violett hold leaving meta. Wasting the time of a DPS player who waited 30-40 minutes for the Group to form.
I got my own Idea's for Solutions aswell.
1. Enable LFD for normal Dungeons up to LVL 70 and let it be Server only.
2. Add in the Group finder Retail uses for Mythic+
3. Add a Reward for joining a group via the tool as a Healer/Tank and completing the Dungeon.
So Dreadnaught bugged and doesn't have any NPCs and at the same time the population dropped by 2k? OOOHH wait I get it! They were all bots to inflate the population of season of mastery!
Arenas hurtin boys. Not a big enough community to support it in TBC. Lots of professional / streamers who play for a living keepin the glad titles on lockdown with super rigid meta comps and boosting etc. Hopefully Blizzard gets their marketing issues together and makes enough positive changes to interest a broader new audience into WOTLK. They also need to fix title calcs. so it includes all teams like it used to.
"the sims got updated and new data was reveled"
stamina is not a dps stat kekw
About the human racial being op.... Just make will of The Forsaken the same racial? It seems to be the obvious race to pick and it would be a similar balance to seal of blood... Thoughts?
You guys have to give ALL the information about DST x hunters. DST is only not bis IF you have Sliver AND thoridal. With golden bow you still wear DST. So for the VAST majority of hunters, DST is still in fact BiS. Also DST is BiS regardless for all SV hunters. So I get you guys are butthurt about DST going to hunters early (I get it, I was a rogue in p1) you need to discuss all the facts, please don’t cherry pick.
People focus so much on the bis talk and forget the entire talk was also about the fact that DST gains just aren't even near what the sims say for hunters. Kind of like melee weaving gains not being close - most hunters suck at getting full gain from dst procs making their gain vs other classes drop even more in terms of DST value.
No one is saying hunters don't deserve dst just because it's not bis in p5, but rather because of so many factors on top of the p5 bis thing making it just seem silly now.
@@ClassicRoguecraft I don’t know what you’re referring to. The common agreed upon info in P1 was that melee always got a bigger upgrade from DST than hunters. The problem was that melee was dumpster garbage in P1 l, when all the drama went down. Warriors only started competing towards the end of P2, and rogues are only starting to really compete now. That was the real issue, not that hunters were overvaluing DST, it was raids and loot council undervaluing melee.
@@antonioandrademusic that happened a bit later in p1. I assume you missed the original p1 discussion when I went into hunter discord early on and got into some interesting discussions - you can search for those posts and for the numbers hunters were giving me at the time.
Suffice to say p1 hunter discord was a complete mess at the time.
@@ClassicRoguecraft I wasn't a hunter at the time so I can't attest to that. I don't think the numbers changed meaningfully from then to now though but I may be wrong. There are a lot of bad apples in the hunter discord though, and I'm sorry you had a bad experience there. Veramos is definitely a godsend there.
@@ClassicRoguecraft One issue I had with the first part of this video is that it fees like you and Zirene are blaming every hunter or at least a large portion of hunter players. Our first sim stopped getting worked on months ago, the new one just barely moved into alpha/beta version and the third one is just compared to the current ones for accuracy. So if there's anything wrong with the first 2, they're going to be wrong in the 3rd most likely as well.
I just wish you guys would have called out the people that are actually responsible for the bad information instead of using terms like "you hunters" "those hunters". Maybe there's more the and a handful of people that are at fault, but the words used in this video makes it seem like every hunter should feel bad.
I really, really don't get Blizzard's approach to Classic WotLK.
Why are we changing core parts of the game when it was the most popular era of WoW?
People _expect_ things to be like they were, it's a free decision on the part of Blizzard.
Leave the RDF tool in, give us faction changes and do not fucking restrict dual-spec availibility, like Brian Birmingham has said that they're considering.
A step too far in the direction of #somechanges
Which is why “no changes” existed from the start. It wasn’t that we wouldn’t appreciate some good changes, it’s that we don’t trust blizzard to make them because they never listen to what the players do.
claims hunters spread all this misinformation, then doesn't give a single example?
We literally went through a timeline explaining how hunters spread misinformation starting from untrue dst numbers in p1, then saying their own sim was inaccurate, then fixing their sim and saying it's accurate but then literally getting caught manipulating their own sim to use fake rotations to push DST gain higher.
Which example would you prefer to pick?
@@ClassicRoguecraft That's one example, but is there proof that it was intentional? I do recall there being flaws in sims, as the spreadsheet sim had been work in progress for a long time. obviously they are sims. Who in particular purposefully lied to an entire community? the author? that seems like a bold claim, wild if it's true. but that's just one example with no proof. Are there other examples? maybe you have some whacky hunters in your raid. personally in my raid we spread gear around to all the physicals based on personal merit and also making sure no one in the raid goes too long without getting some good items. just seems like a weird accusation, and dst will still be bis for 99 percent of hunters till wrath. always dig the podcast though
@@ClassicRoguecraft You wanna know why you get so much backlash? Because you make it sound like the entire hunter community is in collusion in some conspiracy theory. Hunter's, just like every other class, are following sims for a lot of their information. So when you claim that "hunters spread misinformation" you are straight up attacking the handful of people spending their free time to create and tweak those sims. I guarantee you those people are not fudging numbers on purpose to get some pixels. You AND Zirene, however, are proactively shitting on them and calling them liars, with actual zero context in your video.
@@AnklebreakerWoW Literally said "purposefully changing rotations to favor certain things" but him just saying "it was discovered" is not actual proof, this is hearsay, there is no proof presented here, likely he hasn't even seen any and is taking some other person's word for it. or simply mischaracterizing a mistake the sim author made at some point as it was a complex work in progress, with a ton of effort put into tweaking over a long period of time. often we jump to assuming malfeasance when things usually aren't that simple
hunters just slamming agi gems into gear like monke
Our guild went rogue=war>hunt>rest
I'm a hunter and made sure we kept it that way. Glad we did.
These sims also are dst +thoridal vs thoridal + other trinket.
Thoridal too fast for dst.
Also warriors have been the absolute worst on sims. Faking numbers. Hunters havent intentionally been doing it like warrior discord.
The only class faking numbers was hunter from what I have seen. Where did you see warriors faking sims?
Human racial is strong. But so was being a tauren warrior and hitting people through pillars, or having two trinkets against lock comps as undead, or getting most openers with percep. Racials (and bugs/hitboxes) are pick and choose, there are always ones that are overtuned depending on what you do.
orc stun resist was insane in classic, played a rogue and just didnt even try to stun an orc because it resisted every single time. i think potentially changing it would be a bad call
You guys need to understand 1 thing.
Every racial is GOOD depending on the situation.
For example as u said, you have 2 trinkets against locks as a undead.
But as a gnome you also kinda have 2 trinkets against mage.. potentionally.
Stoneform is also good.
Perception is basically cheating in some arena match ups.
Against double stealth dps, if they dont get any sort of opener/momentum they loose.
Tauren hitting you through pillars is basically.. useless if there are no pillars.
And the other guy mentioned the orc stun resist, but he was a ROGUE.
it wouldn't bother him if he was a mage or a shaman right?
But human racial is insanly overpowered in EVERY single situation.
And it becomes even more absurd cus TOC/ICC patches introduce ridiculus trinkets.. that can even be stacked cus of the normal/heroic... like double Solace for healers.
Not bis for hunters in P5**********
***** in otherwise full bis with legendary bow, >10% passive haste, arp capped and only vs 6200armor bosses... This hate is cringe as fuck.
For 99% of hunters, it's still gonna be game bis
very one sided... didnt mention that other sims were incorect..
Nope, leave racials as they were. We asked for the came in it’s original form, not a knock off version
Warcraft logs can't even figure out the difference between a dps and a tank, or a cat and a bear... how the hell are they going to figure out if melee weaving is legit or not?
this is a whole lot of butthurt over a trinket that is BIS from phase 1 all the way to the next to last boss in an expansion.
That was rly cringe hunter hate there @Sno , sorry...
First of all simming of item as u very well know depends on other stats also, its not this item is 15 dps more end of story. In this case its haste. You are looking at 6200 armor pen set, which has every single haste item in game, at the phase where u can get armor pen on any piece. Plus its with legendary bow , which is 1st and only raiding bow with such high speed. That greatly devalues haste and is unique gear set , which 99.999% hunters will never get. So yes we have theoretical bis, which is with all gear possible in phase and based on sim , which was developed by great hunters like Veramos over time, feel free to call hunters liers...
Btw there is other set which u "forgot" to mention (released by Veramos every phase) and its 7700 arp set, which has , more arp and less static haste and guess what... dst
You also forgot to mention this from Veramos post - "If you only ever upgrade to Golden Bow of Quel'Thalas then you will continue to use DST".
And we are not even talking about survivals here yet...
Melee weawing not good enough before this phase, and only now, cmon, u have explained it yourself few sentences before, when u were talking how punishing clipping is now add weawing to that and t5 "melee friendly encounters" and availability of good 2handes to make it worth..
In case this wasn't ment as tease or joke, then its very selective reading with purpose to secure your shiny epic. To make you happy I will tell , that yes hunter probably shouldn't touch that trinket until he has too much haste for dst.
Also interesting will be (like always with hunters) how will be real practical experience with such high haste vs theoretical optimized dps set. Even best hunters are doing sacrifices in favor of practical use...
Going into the details doesn't fit the narrative they have. The have an absurd amount of hate towards the hunter class.
It's honestly really missing the point if you thought this was about BNS. Rogues are likely already high prio on BNS before other factors just due to pure +dps gain on the trinket vs. other classes - trust me when I say we don't need to force some narrative for BNS prio. I also had DST on week 2 of TBC and a 2nd DST within the first month so trust me it's not about my DST prio either.
This wasn't about securing any p5 trinket prios but rather just a general talk about how much hunter info constantly changed and why every other class has a mistrust bias against hunters when you mention them now.
It's not to say every hunter is like the hunters we mentioned or that all hunters are untrustworthy, but rather why does the class have that reputation and what led to that reputation. The difference is being able to look at the class reputation and without immediately thinking it's talking about you directly or good hunters.
I don't get offended if someone says 'rogues suck at applying IEA why even bring them in average guilds' because for the average rogue it's true (most rogues are horrible at IEA uptime if you look at average rogues). In the same way it's okay for hunters to look at what was said and think "yeah p1 hunter information was a mess and really incorrect for a long time" and not have it be personal or think it's about them.
This isn't about the outliers or the good hunters or the ones doing things right. This is about the average one and how they behaved/what was put out there. The average is very different from you or what you may think is the average when you realise just how many dad guilds exist in WoW and what giant percentage of players they represent.
@@ClassicRoguecraft This isn't the first time you have gone after hunters like this. You never talk about the warrior sims changing or them justifying every single piece of physical DPS gear. For whatever reason, hunters are the only class you go after like that. It was like you looked at a youtube thumbnail and went on a rant without ever going over the details.
@@JP_P3X actually I have - you may have missed it but we made fun of warriors when they had 2ppm and had to change it to 1ppm, and also when they picked certain gear that didn't make sense for them just because it was a minor upgrade. People just get selective outrage because they hear their class but don't pay as much attention if it's another class mentioned.
Do you notice how much zirene and me poke fun at rogues for sucking in PvE? I literally get messages from rogues who ask me to stop targeting my own class. The irony of all of this is a lot of the hunter creators who people use as sources in these comments themselves messaged me and they weren't upset with what I said at all, and in some cases agreed with the basis.
People get overly defensive when they feel their class is targeted, when in reality it's usually just knee jerk reactions to statements that may not even apply to themselves.
@@ClassicRoguecraft You didn't call the entire rogue class liars and purposefully leave out all the details. There is one very specific case that DST is not bis, you made it seem as if every hunter, every spec of hunter, will be dropping DST this phase.
Removing LFD is so stupid and most of all I hate how these wow commentators and devs talk about "compromise". As if we have to compromise with Blizzard to give us something that we don't really want but it's good enough. WoW has been nothing but compromise ever since TBC came out. No developer or commentator has truly stood their ground on principles and is willing to deny the vocal minority. Blizzard continues to act as if everyone needs to be included so we can all feel good about how we're pandering to the minority as well as to the general public by having a nice compromise so everyone can feel shitty for not getting what they really want but feel good about themselves because they got noticed for once. Removing LFD will just make rep grinds a nightmare. I'm sorry but people are not prepared for how shitty it is to farm Ebon Blade and Sons of Hodir without dungeon finder, LFD haters will just quit the game from week 1. And that is really a big issue because the players who don't want LFD are just gonna quit. The people that are gonna stick with wotlk till the end are the sweaty try hard nerds that are already playing the fuck out of private servers and are just gonna be disappointed because a major part that makes wotlk good is gonna end up being a compromise.
Remember when hunters were all going to melee weave?
I trust the rogue sims because at any time I can open Simonize's sheet and LOOK at the math. I have 0 trust for the warrior sims because I can't.
Kek
manscape gross
We need the Dungeonfinder in WotLK from the beginning. Nobody has to use it, but I want to... Please push Blizzard!
nobody compares horde vs alliance warcraftlogs so who cares dont be gae