When I first started looking into electric motorcycles I found Zero and it * seemed * like it was perfect (minus the price). Then I found out quickly that people had huge issues with them locking off things on their bikes and paying hundreds of dollars to just get the software unlock. From what I understand, lately they've pivoted away from that model hard after intense backlash (did they REALLY think it'd work?!) however that little stunt in their careers has steered me away from them entirely because if they did it once, they could do it again. I looked at a number of others, but the S2 Del Mar seems to be the perfect fit for me. I aim to get it by early 2025.
@AdamasOldblade As much as I dislike the unlock idea, it is sadly an idea that is sweeping the auto & motorcycle industries. For example, I own a Mustang Mach-E. Ford plans to charge me $70 per month for BlueCruise after year 3 (when I'll drop it) and Yamaha charges by the month for the built-in navigation on my Tracer 9 GT+ which I refuse to pay or use.
I bought a LiveWire Del Mar. I liked the badass flat tracker styling, comfortable ride position, excellent handling, and superb build quality of the Del Mar. The Zero designs are too much Tupperware for me. My commute is 24 miles roundtrip, so range is not a problem, even if I take the long way home. I’ll never buy another gas-engine anything. When you go electric, your life gets better. Dig it.
Thanks for sharing. I have a LiveWire One with DC fast charging, which allows me to travel to Indianapolis, Dayton, OH and Cincinnati. I AC charge at home take off from Richmond, IN and spend a day or two in any of these cities and stop by an Electrify America station and recharge for 25 minutes on average to get home. Over 95% of our charging happens at home for our LiveWire and Mustang Mach-e GT at .13 per KWH. I'm retired and my wife will retire soon and we will be living in a major metro area and I suspect my LiveWire will rarely be ridden beyond home charging range. Folks tend to purchase more vehicle than they need, because of fear mostly. Afraid of what? It's complicated. Ride Free
That's awesome. I've also got a Mach-E and 100% agree with you, although I do still also have a 2nd gas bike for those longer rides to places where there aren't any conviently located chargers yet.
Owner of a 2017 Zero S; I've put about 28k miles on it. I was hoping to get to 40k, but my range is half of what it used to be, there have been disconnect issues with the dash and a few times it just...stopped...when I was getting going. I know Zero's rep for customer service isn't great--and that's true from personal experience. So now I'm hunting for my next ride. I need a commuter, capable of at least 80mph for my freeways, and I'll go from there. If it's a Zero again, that's fine (I guess), but I think that the way they've managed themselves and that they basically make the same bike "but biggerer" leads me to look at other options.
I had a 2014 SR. I'm sorry to say that bike wasn't impressive in terms of build quality/reliability but the current-gen SR/F, SR/S and DSR/X have come a long way. The batteries are bigger now (17.3 kWh). Whether they'll last longer I can't say but they do come with a 5-year, unlimited miles warranty. I'm regularly getting 120 real mixed riding miles with my 2020 SR/F since Zero did a factory warranty battery swap on mine, or about 100 interstate miles here in Florida. I've currently got more than 23,000 miles on mine. I'm still happy with it. If I was buying tomorrow, based on the current EV market here in the U.S., I'd probably go with a Zero SR/S. The LiveWires are cool bikes and initital quality seems great but the batteries are just too small for my riding style. My biggest knock on Zero is they still aren't offering DC charging. But then again, no one in the U.S. is currently offering both AC L2 & DC now that Energica is in bankruptcy court. Good luck with your search and if you get a chance drop a comment on what bike you ended up getting.
@@EVRider I'm interested in the Verge and Fuell, but I'm not intersted in being someone's guinea pig--definitely not buying another bike on spec. Did that once, and it cost me 15k for a total of 900 miles. It's either Livewire or Zero for now... It seems that I will have to wait through this year to see what '25 will bring me for options. Thanks for the reply!
I went all in on EV bikes. I live in the Bay Area of California. Level 2 EVSE charge stations were often broken, nonoperational, or shared power at 3.1kW. I had a 2017 Zero DSR with a Charge Tank that would operate at 6.2kW. At ChargePoint stations where there were two outlets, I would plug one into my charge tank, and the other into the frame-mounted charger. I waited to see how the new DSR/X and Experia measured up. I ended up going back to gas, purchasing a 2022 Ducati Multistrada V4S Sport. It was the same price as the Experia and DSR/X and COMPLETELY ECLIPSED BOTH of those EV bikes regarding usable tech. The Skyhook suspension alone is like science fiction. The blind spot warning radar and adaptive cruise control operate so well. Sorry that the EV life is not for me. Of course, technology will change, but the nonaerodynamic human form really sucks down battery life due to drag. Not sure how we will resolve that. Fingers crossed for 2 wheel EVs.
EV motorcycles have come a long way in range and quality since your 2017 DSR, although I agree that they are falling a bit behind in a few tech areas once you get beyond the powertrain. I am surprised Energica, LiveWire and Zero don't offer adaptive cruise & electronically adaptable suspensions yet. I've got both on my Yamaha Tracer 9 GT+ and absolutely love the adaptive cruise on those long interstate trips. I use my Zero SR/F primarily for roundtrips of 120 miles or less and the Tracer for the longer trips. Personally, if our nation's charging infrastructure were better, I'd probably dump the Tracer, get a fully kitted SR/S with 13kW Rapid Charger and call it a day. But until then I'll stick with 2 motorcycles.
I'd take a Mulholland in 3 years, used for $7k, I think it's safe to assume they will depreciate like the Zeros do. Although most of the time when I see a used Zero for sale they mention having had a battery replacement under warranty, which is not very confidence inspiring at all!
Concerning Zero, as an owner, I feel exactly the opposite as far as confidence goes. My 2020 SR/F is among the bikes with a new pack replaced under warranty. Zero replaced my 2020's 14.4 kW pack with a 17.3 kW pack, capping it at 15.6. With that much buffer I doubt I'll ever see a noticable drop in range over the life of the bike. It has more range now than the day I bought it new in 2019. I currently have just under 23k miles on my SR/F. If the Mulholland's smaller battery meets your riding style, it be appears to be a great bike. SR/F review: ruclips.net/video/innk4CBRIus/видео.html Mulholland review: ruclips.net/video/9a658XxbheE/видео.html
@@EVRider A track-record of batteries lasting under 5 years is confidence inspiring to you? Maybe you go through bikes every few years and don't care about 2/3 of value lost in that time, but I'm a lifelong value-oriented-second-owner type, so that sounds regrettable to me. And if the battery does fail outside of warranty the bike would be worth less than the replacement. I wouldn't be entirely stoked with Zero's solution: adding another 30-40 lbs of (inaccessible) battery weight because they aren't confident in the quality of their product.
@@Piper_John It's the way Zero handled it that's confidence inspring. They didn't try to run out the warranty or make excuses. They did the right thing & replaced the battery with an improved pack. By comparison, I had a GM Voltec battery that lost about 30% of its capacity over the years but GM wouldn't replace it because the OEM warranty only guaranteed 60%. I bought my Zero in Dec. 2019 as a demo model so it was significantly discounted. I'm still happy with it & can easily see riding it to 50k miles or more. As for resale value, yep, that sucks, which is another reason I don't have my eyes on a new or gently-used bike.
The upfront cost for EVs are high but over five years my operational costs have proved to be much lower than gas. Since 2019 I've put more than 22k miles on my SR/F EV with the only cost being tires & 1 brake fluid change. I also changed the belt at 20k, although it didn't need it. The majority of my fuel has been free since my utility gives me a $7 credit per month for off peak charging, which exceeds how many miles I usually ride per month. Plus, many of the L2 charging stations along my routes are free. My utility's per kW rate is 12 cents so without the credit it would cost me roughly $1.40 to "fill her up." By comparison, my Yamaha Tracer 9 GT+ uses premuim, which depending on the week costs anywhere from $3.80 to $4.05 per gallon. It's lifetime average is 49.3 miles per gallon. Plus, it needs regular chain maintenance, oil changes, etc.
I’m a bit concerned of the significant price reductions on new Zero bikes. It’s almost like Zero is unloading them. Why, I don’t know. Could be nothing, but just an observation.
I'll take the optimistic position and say hopefully it's a sign that Zero is finally making it into the mainstream . I don't have any inside information but Zero has opened a factory in the Phillippines so in theory its production volume should be going up and its costs coming down. Many legacy motorcycle companies have often used discounts to boost sales. Why should Zero be any different? And let's not forget that compared to ICE bikes Zeros are still expensive. Story on the Philippines plant: evrider.tv/zero-motorcycles-announces-deal-to-build-evs-in-philippines/
I Have ridden Energica, Experier and Zero SR/F and SR/S and still find them fast but the handling confidence is not there. They feel top heavy and light at the front. The livewire one is planted and has the most real motorcycle experience and I feel more confident in the Twisties. But hey you cant beat the rush!
I've ridden all the bikes you've mentioned. I'm sort of surprised at your comments. I found Engerica's Experia was nicely balanced , with its weight down low, although it is a tall, heavy bike. I've also not noticed any top heaviness with the Zeros you mentioned, although perhaps you rode ones with either the Power Tank or Rapid Charger. Those accessories would add roughly 50 pounds up high. I'm not a motorcyclist that rides anywhere near the limit so perhaps the handling traits you mentioned would expose themselves at higher speeds? I agree with your thoughts on the LiveWire One. Lest you think I'm only an EV fanboy, I also own a Yamaha Tracer 9 GT+ and have owned a bunch of ICE bikes over the years.
@@EVRider I own a Harley Sportster 1250s and my previous bikes over the last few years was a Ktm 890 Duke, Triumph bobber Suzuki GsxS1000 so my pattern is variety, the adventure style bikes I understand need a lighter front particular if you go bush but I don't feel confident with the front end. That's probably why I found the Experier it little odd rather than just being Electric, but the Zero SR/S out of the 2 models definitely felt a little top heavy for me, Im of a more mature age range , I like to ride a lot but Im not a scratcher, I tend to be compliant on most straights and just have fun in the corners. The Livewire seems to be a better all rounder to suit my style, each to their own hey!
The prices are tough to swallow. That's the biggest challenge facing EV makers right now, getting battery tech to price parity with ICE tech that's had plenty of time to recoup initital investments.
@@princestevenii.772 because, you’ll end up with a Zero you paid over $20k for, that’s 4 years old, with under 5000 miles on the odo; and it’ll be worth $0 as a trade in. The kicker? It has had a problem with it since I bought it, that was never diagnosed by the service provider, until I went to trade it in; and, Zero won’t stand behind their product on a known issue.
@@princestevenii.772 after less than 5000 miles, the Zero is worth its namesake in trade in value. Because the service at the dealer didn’t recognize a sound with the motor, since I bought it, or during any of the service checks, Zero won’t stand behind their product, with a known issue, because it’s out of warranty. It’s a $20k+ bike that is worth $0, and can’t be traded in.
@@princestevenii.772 After less than 5000 miles, the Zero is worth its namesake in trade in value. Because the service at the dealer didn’t recognize a sound with the motor, since I bought it, or during any of the service checks, Zero won’t stand behind their product, with a known issue, because it’s out of warranty. It’s a $20k+ bike that is worth $0, and can’t be traded in.
@@EVRider My Yamaha FZ-07 has about as small and hard of seat as any .. I have not even used my Air Hawk air cushion this summer. It is nice if you are going to be on the bike for over 8 hours however.
@@mikeskidmore6754 I've only demo-ridden a MT-07 a short distance so I can't comment on its comfort but I quickly changed out the seat on my Yamaha Tracer 9 GT+. For a touring bike, I was surprised at how poor the Tracer's stock seat comfort was, although I've seen others say its comfortable for all-day rides.
When I first started looking into electric motorcycles I found Zero and it * seemed * like it was perfect (minus the price). Then I found out quickly that people had huge issues with them locking off things on their bikes and paying hundreds of dollars to just get the software unlock. From what I understand, lately they've pivoted away from that model hard after intense backlash (did they REALLY think it'd work?!) however that little stunt in their careers has steered me away from them entirely because if they did it once, they could do it again.
I looked at a number of others, but the S2 Del Mar seems to be the perfect fit for me. I aim to get it by early 2025.
@AdamasOldblade As much as I dislike the unlock idea, it is sadly an idea that is sweeping the auto & motorcycle industries. For example, I own a Mustang Mach-E. Ford plans to charge me $70 per month for BlueCruise after year 3 (when I'll drop it) and Yamaha charges by the month for the built-in navigation on my Tracer 9 GT+ which I refuse to pay or use.
I bought a LiveWire Del Mar. I liked the badass flat tracker styling, comfortable ride position, excellent handling, and superb build quality of the Del Mar. The Zero designs are too much Tupperware for me. My commute is 24 miles roundtrip, so range is not a problem, even if I take the long way home. I’ll never buy another gas-engine anything. When you go electric, your life gets better. Dig it.
Thanks for sharing. I have a LiveWire One with DC fast charging, which allows me to travel to Indianapolis, Dayton, OH and Cincinnati. I AC charge at home take off from Richmond, IN and spend a day or two in any of these cities and stop by an Electrify America station and recharge for 25 minutes on average to get home. Over 95% of our charging happens at home for our LiveWire and Mustang Mach-e GT at .13 per KWH. I'm retired and my wife will retire soon and we will be living in a major metro area and I suspect my LiveWire will rarely be ridden beyond home charging range. Folks tend to purchase more vehicle than they need, because of fear mostly. Afraid of what? It's complicated. Ride Free
That's awesome. I've also got a Mach-E and 100% agree with you, although I do still also have a 2nd gas bike for those longer rides to places where there aren't any conviently located chargers yet.
Funny enough, I bought my Zero SR from Adamec Harley-Davidson. If I needed to get a replacement for my Zero, it would probably be a Livewire One.
Owner of a 2017 Zero S; I've put about 28k miles on it. I was hoping to get to 40k, but my range is half of what it used to be, there have been disconnect issues with the dash and a few times it just...stopped...when I was getting going. I know Zero's rep for customer service isn't great--and that's true from personal experience. So now I'm hunting for my next ride. I need a commuter, capable of at least 80mph for my freeways, and I'll go from there. If it's a Zero again, that's fine (I guess), but I think that the way they've managed themselves and that they basically make the same bike "but biggerer" leads me to look at other options.
I had a 2014 SR. I'm sorry to say that bike wasn't impressive in terms of build quality/reliability but the current-gen SR/F, SR/S and DSR/X have come a long way. The batteries are bigger now (17.3 kWh). Whether they'll last longer I can't say but they do come with a 5-year, unlimited miles warranty. I'm regularly getting 120 real mixed riding miles with my 2020 SR/F since Zero did a factory warranty battery swap on mine, or about 100 interstate miles here in Florida. I've currently got more than 23,000 miles on mine. I'm still happy with it. If I was buying tomorrow, based on the current EV market here in the U.S., I'd probably go with a Zero SR/S. The LiveWires are cool bikes and initital quality seems great but the batteries are just too small for my riding style. My biggest knock on Zero is they still aren't offering DC charging. But then again, no one in the U.S. is currently offering both AC L2 & DC now that Energica is in bankruptcy court. Good luck with your search and if you get a chance drop a comment on what bike you ended up getting.
@@EVRider I'm interested in the Verge and Fuell, but I'm not intersted in being someone's guinea pig--definitely not buying another bike on spec. Did that once, and it cost me 15k for a total of 900 miles. It's either Livewire or Zero for now... It seems that I will have to wait through this year to see what '25 will bring me for options. Thanks for the reply!
Livewire would be my pick
Bonjour quel est le modèle de votre pare-brise ? Merci
Merci d'avoir regardé. J'ai un pare-brise MRA.
oh, so very helpful, and well done. Thank you. /sub
Thanks for the compliment and watching EV Rider!
I went all in on EV bikes. I live in the Bay Area of California. Level 2 EVSE charge stations were often broken, nonoperational, or shared power at 3.1kW. I had a 2017 Zero DSR with a Charge Tank that would operate at 6.2kW. At ChargePoint stations where there were two outlets, I would plug one into my charge tank, and the other into the frame-mounted charger. I waited to see how the new DSR/X and Experia measured up. I ended up going back to gas, purchasing a 2022 Ducati Multistrada V4S Sport. It was the same price as the Experia and DSR/X and COMPLETELY ECLIPSED BOTH of those EV bikes regarding usable tech. The Skyhook suspension alone is like science fiction. The blind spot warning radar and adaptive cruise control operate so well. Sorry that the EV life is not for me. Of course, technology will change, but the nonaerodynamic human form really sucks down battery life due to drag. Not sure how we will resolve that. Fingers crossed for 2 wheel EVs.
EV motorcycles have come a long way in range and quality since your 2017 DSR, although I agree that they are falling a bit behind in a few tech areas once you get beyond the powertrain. I am surprised Energica, LiveWire and Zero don't offer adaptive cruise & electronically adaptable suspensions yet. I've got both on my Yamaha Tracer 9 GT+ and absolutely love the adaptive cruise on those long interstate trips. I use my Zero SR/F primarily for roundtrips of 120 miles or less and the Tracer for the longer trips. Personally, if our nation's charging infrastructure were better, I'd probably dump the Tracer, get a fully kitted SR/S with 13kW Rapid Charger and call it a day. But until then I'll stick with 2 motorcycles.
I'd take a Mulholland in 3 years, used for $7k, I think it's safe to assume they will depreciate like the Zeros do.
Although most of the time when I see a used Zero for sale they mention having had a battery replacement under warranty, which is not very confidence inspiring at all!
Concerning Zero, as an owner, I feel exactly the opposite as far as confidence goes. My 2020 SR/F is among the bikes with a new pack replaced under warranty. Zero replaced my 2020's 14.4 kW pack with a 17.3 kW pack, capping it at 15.6. With that much buffer I doubt I'll ever see a noticable drop in range over the life of the bike. It has more range now than the day I bought it new in 2019. I currently have just under 23k miles on my SR/F. If the Mulholland's smaller battery meets your riding style, it be appears to be a great bike. SR/F review: ruclips.net/video/innk4CBRIus/видео.html Mulholland review: ruclips.net/video/9a658XxbheE/видео.html
@@EVRider A track-record of batteries lasting under 5 years is confidence inspiring to you? Maybe you go through bikes every few years and don't care about 2/3 of value lost in that time, but I'm a lifelong value-oriented-second-owner type, so that sounds regrettable to me. And if the battery does fail outside of warranty the bike would be worth less than the replacement. I wouldn't be entirely stoked with Zero's solution: adding another 30-40 lbs of (inaccessible) battery weight because they aren't confident in the quality of their product.
@@Piper_John It's the way Zero handled it that's confidence inspring. They didn't try to run out the warranty or make excuses. They did the right thing & replaced the battery with an improved pack. By comparison, I had a GM Voltec battery that lost about 30% of its capacity over the years but GM wouldn't replace it because the OEM warranty only guaranteed 60%. I bought my Zero in Dec. 2019 as a demo model so it was significantly discounted. I'm still happy with it & can easily see riding it to 50k miles or more. As for resale value, yep, that sucks, which is another reason I don't have my eyes on a new or gently-used bike.
Just got back to camdenton , get ready to head to lepercons in about five minutes
$14-$16k BASE...think about that for a sec. 🤯 That is ridiculous. Think I'll sit out on this dance.
The upfront cost for EVs are high but over five years my operational costs have proved to be much lower than gas. Since 2019 I've put more than 22k miles on my SR/F EV with the only cost being tires & 1 brake fluid change. I also changed the belt at 20k, although it didn't need it. The majority of my fuel has been free since my utility gives me a $7 credit per month for off peak charging, which exceeds how many miles I usually ride per month. Plus, many of the L2 charging stations along my routes are free. My utility's per kW rate is 12 cents so without the credit it would cost me roughly $1.40 to "fill her up." By comparison, my Yamaha Tracer 9 GT+ uses premuim, which depending on the week costs anywhere from $3.80 to $4.05 per gallon. It's lifetime average is 49.3 miles per gallon. Plus, it needs regular chain maintenance, oil changes, etc.
I’m a bit concerned of the significant price reductions on new Zero bikes. It’s almost like Zero is unloading them. Why, I don’t know. Could be nothing, but just an observation.
I'll take the optimistic position and say hopefully it's a sign that Zero is finally making it into the mainstream . I don't have any inside information but Zero has opened a factory in the Phillippines so in theory its production volume should be going up and its costs coming down. Many legacy motorcycle companies have often used discounts to boost sales. Why should Zero be any different? And let's not forget that compared to ICE bikes Zeros are still expensive. Story on the Philippines plant: evrider.tv/zero-motorcycles-announces-deal-to-build-evs-in-philippines/
I Have ridden Energica, Experier and Zero SR/F and SR/S and still find them fast but the handling confidence is not there. They feel top heavy and light at the front. The livewire one is planted and has the most real motorcycle experience and I feel more confident in the Twisties. But hey you cant beat the rush!
I've ridden all the bikes you've mentioned. I'm sort of surprised at your comments. I found Engerica's Experia was nicely balanced , with its weight down low, although it is a tall, heavy bike. I've also not noticed any top heaviness with the Zeros you mentioned, although perhaps you rode ones with either the Power Tank or Rapid Charger. Those accessories would add roughly 50 pounds up high. I'm not a motorcyclist that rides anywhere near the limit so perhaps the handling traits you mentioned would expose themselves at higher speeds? I agree with your thoughts on the LiveWire One. Lest you think I'm only an EV fanboy, I also own a Yamaha Tracer 9 GT+ and have owned a bunch of ICE bikes over the years.
@@EVRider I own a Harley Sportster 1250s and my previous bikes over the last few years was a Ktm 890 Duke, Triumph bobber Suzuki GsxS1000 so my pattern is variety, the adventure style bikes I understand need a lighter front particular if you go bush but I don't feel confident with the front end. That's probably why I found the Experier it little odd rather than just being Electric, but the Zero SR/S out of the 2 models definitely felt a little top heavy for me, Im of a more mature age range , I like to ride a lot but Im not a scratcher, I tend to be compliant on most straights and just have fun in the corners. The Livewire seems to be a better all rounder to suit my style, each to their own hey!
I think the main issue with both of these bikes is price.
The prices are tough to swallow. That's the biggest challenge facing EV makers right now, getting battery tech to price parity with ICE tech that's had plenty of time to recoup initital investments.
As a current owner of a Zero Motorcycle, my campaign against the company starts here. Ask me why you should never buy a Zero Motorcycle.
Uhhh... why?
@@princestevenii.772 because, you’ll end up with a Zero you paid over $20k for, that’s 4 years old, with under 5000 miles on the odo; and it’ll be worth $0 as a trade in. The kicker? It has had a problem with it since I bought it, that was never diagnosed by the service provider, until I went to trade it in; and, Zero won’t stand behind their product on a known issue.
@@princestevenii.772 after less than 5000 miles, the Zero is worth its namesake in trade in value. Because the service at the dealer didn’t recognize a sound with the motor, since I bought it, or during any of the service checks, Zero won’t stand behind their product, with a known issue, because it’s out of warranty. It’s a $20k+ bike that is worth $0, and can’t be traded in.
@@princestevenii.772 Zero/RUclips is deleting my replies. That’s how they handle bad reviews from those that got suckered into buying a Zero.
@@princestevenii.772 After less than 5000 miles, the Zero is worth its namesake in trade in value. Because the service at the dealer didn’t recognize a sound with the motor, since I bought it, or during any of the service checks, Zero won’t stand behind their product, with a known issue, because it’s out of warranty. It’s a $20k+ bike that is worth $0, and can’t be traded in.
Seat Comfort?? Your battery will be dead long before you butt gets sore.
@mikeskidmore6754 Not necessarily true. I've been on my share of bikes over the years where my butt is already starting to hurt after 35 miles.
@@EVRider My Yamaha FZ-07 has about as small and hard of seat as any .. I have not even used my Air Hawk air cushion this summer. It is nice if you are going to be on the bike for over 8 hours however.
@@mikeskidmore6754 I've only demo-ridden a MT-07 a short distance so I can't comment on its comfort but I quickly changed out the seat on my Yamaha Tracer 9 GT+. For a touring bike, I was surprised at how poor the Tracer's stock seat comfort was, although I've seen others say its comfortable for all-day rides.