The guitar will balance on one strap point (your fulcrum) because that is on the centre of gravity. But when its around your neck on the strap, that balance point changes to half way between the two strap pins, that is why it still drops
@@JoeHartRocks But why does it get worse when moving even further towards the neck?🤔 What worked for me on a Washburn SI10 and a Telecaster (both guitars) was to move front the strap button on the front of the neck heel. It didn't work on an Ibanez GSR200 bass though.
What I did was move my back straplock to the backside of the bass, that cured neck dive because it was leveraging against itself and didn't pull down as hard, not a full fix but definitely better than the factory position
My experience with a diving SG was to get a strap that'd provide friction on my shoulder. Didn't have to be leather either. You can tell by just rubbing your fingers over the inside of the strap whether it'll be up to the challenge. To me that's the easiest and most effective way to eliminate (mostly) neck dive.
Get a SCUBA weight pouch and put it at the bottom of the strap by your hip. Then add appropiate weight into the pouch as needed to counter balance the neck dive
The solution is a strap that is wider and has some grip either by way of foam like a Comfort Strapp or a wide leather strap. Either will provide enough friction to hold the strap and your bass in place.
Try a different guitar strap, one that causes a little friction against your shoulder. It works for my 6 string SG. I haven't tried it on my SG short scale bass yet. IDK? Maybe attach both ends of your strap to the horn position, like a saxophone strap and try that !!! You may or may not have to put the strap around your neck. Sounds crazy but it might work.
as soon as you let go, at the beginning, you can see the bass drops to the point where both strap buttons are even (parallel to the ground). So the strap is held up around your shoulder and neck, which technically is just one point of contact even if it is pretty wide, comparatively. The center of gravity for your bass seems to be close to center. if the back strap button were raised on the body (where most bass players rest their arm to play fingerstyle) and move the forward strap button to the back of the neck plate you might have exactly what you want. This would make both points even like when you let go or where the bass wants to rest. Don't take my word for it, though. Thanks for posting this video!
@@JoeHartRocks I can empathize. my first bass is a five string and I never want to sell it, but has such severe neck dive. Maybe after 24 years I can stop being so precious about it and try to fix it. lol Best of luck, man!
Yes. The top horn isn't a fulcrum. When the neck dives, the top horn slides down with the strap. The strap button on the end of the horn doesn't stay in the same place while the bass pivots on either side of it. When you move the strap button up, you're putting more weight directly under the strap on that side. I think what happened when you taped it was that instead of pulling down from one point on the back, the force was spread out out over the body of the bass so it was like you moved the button up and moved it forward. That's why you were getting inconsistent results. Exactly where the strap button you're simulating is located changes depending on exactly where the tape is and which parts of the adhesive are doing the most work at any given moment. If you were using physics, you've have to figure out some way to measure how much weight was being supported by every square centimeter of tape and average out all the force vectors to get the approximate location. It wouldn't be exact because the area of tape you'd be sampling could be always be divided into smaller sections that would give you a more precise result, but that's the nature of limits. I appreciate that you wanted to find something out so you devised an experiment to test it. That's actually really commendable, but you have to be very careful about how you design your experiments for them to tell you what you want to know. This is kind of the same thing as a couple of years ago when people thought they could prove that moonlight was cold by measuring things in moonlight and things being blocked from moonlight with IR thermometers. In the cases where they got positive results, it was because whatever they used to block moonlight was slowly radiating heat.
Interesting. I really need to sort it out because I do like the bass. I've just gotten busy with other stuff... But I will definitely get back to it, so stay tuned. I will try a more scientific approach. And that moonlight experiment is interesting! I mean, moonlight is reflected sunlight. So, it is composed of wavelengths of visible light and moving photons (I think -- I'd have to check that out). But there is energy there and it has to dissipate somehow (conservation of energy and all that)... so, heat.
@@JoeHartRocks Those Jaguar specials are pretty nice bases, especially for the price they were sold at. I didn't even notice before that the original pickups were replaced with the single MM style one. You did a really good job routing it for that. The four control knobs are the only way I can tell it didn't come from the factory like that. I'm not really sure how you could take a more scientific approach aside from just putting in a new strap button and seeing what it does. I don't think you're going to find a way to attach a strap to a single point without putting a screw in the body. Even if you knew how to do the math to calculate where the strap button you're simulating with tape was, there are too many unpredictable factors to get a good practical result. I guess you could try it on another bass body and neck, but that's about it. You wouldn't regret just putting a higher strap button on it though because that will fix it. The button on my custom bass is 2 inches above the center. Most of the people doing the moonlight experiment didn't agree that moonlight was reflected sunlight. They were flat Earthers who thought the sun and moon were independent light sources (because that's what it says in the bible) and they thought showing that moonlight is cold meant it was a different kind of light that couldn't be from the sun. They were dumb, but it's a great example of how you can get incorrect results if you don't set up an experiments very carefully. Depending on how you block the moonlight and when you check the temperatures, you really can find that objects exposed to moonlight have lower temperatures than objects shielded from moonlight. Light is complicated. It's kind of particles (photons) and it's kind of not. It's like a wave until it hit's something and collapses into being a particle... Quantum physics is hard and I'm not an expert. I know enough to say that it's kind of weird to say it's composed of wavelengths of visible light. A wavelength is the distance between the peaks of a wave so light has wavelengths rather than being composed of wavelengths. That being said, the light we get from the sun is like a bunch of different waves stacked on top of each other (kind of like how overtones are stacked on top of the fundamental when you play a note on a bass) so it can be split up into different waves by wavelength. Most of the waves aren't in the visible light range though.
Guys (you too Joe) I hear people say that you dont wanna make it heavier but look...average bass is 8 1/2 lbs. They go up to 13lbs and everywhere in between. I bught wheel weights cos I had THE worst case of neckk dive, I mean it was pathetic. You let go of the neck and its shooting towards the ground. I put 8 weights in the cavity to fix 70% of the neck dive. Each weight is 1/2 oz. 8 weights, 4 oz. so for the worst neck dive ever I added a quarter pound. That is nothing! Unless you have a 13lbs plus bass and just couldn't bear another quarter pound, get the dang weights. Don't drill a hole like some backwoods donkey.
What about if you put it higher up on the back of the body? Would save you from drilling into the forearm contour, my BC Rich JRV7 has serious neck dive so I might try something similar to this but on a V shaped body
5 string basses are even worse as the neck is much heavier. Take your strap and use the acoustic string they send with the strap and tie the strap around the nut like an acoustic guitar. Problem solved.
I hate to break it to you, but you're wrong. Your experiment is flawed. Let me explain... I tried the same experiment as you, using gaffers tape to hold the strap in place. When you try it this way, it seems it will make little difference. However, forget the tape, you don't need it as it alters the physics. Pinch the strap against the body in the original button location. Notice that you have neck dive (nothing has changed). Now, move the strap tip up higher on the guitar and pinch it to the body and notice that it changes the whole center of gravity. It literally points the headstock up towards the ceiling to a degree. It may not solve the problem completely, but, combined with other solutions (guitar gummies on the strap, added weight to control cavity), I was able to eliminate my neck dive issues.
Try putting the back strap in the middle of the guitar body. Front strap {* * }*Old position Hope that makes sense. I have done this on my guitars. There is no neck dive at all. More like back dive. Try taping the strap there before you drill, to see if it works for you.
i had quite a lot of neck dive on my a bass with a body i built myself. the body is heavy but short, the shape is a lot like the les paul junior tribute bass. anyway, this results in the neck strap button not being high enough up the neck giving it a lot of neck dive. people often suggest moving the neck strap from the horn to where the neck joins the body, but this only made it worse. so i tried moving the back strap button up like you did which had a slight positive effect. i then tried putting the strap on the back of the body a bit away from the edge. i put it pretty much under the bridge but i tiny bit up like you did in the video. moving it in towards the middle seemed to have more effect than moving it up at least on my bass.
And? Did you manage to solve it? I have the same bass but a PJ and it also dives like mofo. I got it 2nd hand for cheaps so don’t really want to spend a whole lot. The licensed hipshots ultralites are about as much as I’m willing to spend, though preferably even less. I already filled the cavity for the jack(want a jack socket in the control plate)with steel BBs and it hasn’t really made a difference.
I have literally never dealt with necktive in my life. And all I've ever played is either a fender pig or a fender jay. Leo fender spent so much time on strap buttons and their location. 12th fret and at the heel of the body. Never have I ever had A problem.
A lot of acoustic guitars are manufactured with only one button assuming you tie the strap to the headstock, but it actually introduces unwanted tension to your neck when you're playing standing up. You DON'T want that kind of varying tension in your guitar neck for a number of reasons.
Ok this is funny. Not only am I here because I have the same problem, but I have the exact same bass! I was also considering the exact same fix and thought my way through the exact same excrement with the tape! Whatever happened with this? I saw a suggestion down below about moving the front pin around back (on the neck plate) as well as moving the rear pin up a few inches to change the point at which they sit level.
I replaced the tuners with ultra light tuners (ruclips.net/video/RsyjqarGQII/видео.html) and then went another step further and moved the strap button away from the body and towards the headstock (ruclips.net/video/dp_SBmgKyUM/видео.html).
@@JoeHartRocks if you are designing the bass from scratch then yes. The strap pin should be by the 12th fret or a bit further in a long scale bass. But if changing the body is not an option. Then I saw people putting the pin around the neck plate on telecaster type guitars or jackson/bc rich, some SGs as well. Some people attach weight to the strap... Also if the tuners are heavy they could be the problem, but I asume it is not your case (I am thinking of heavy vintage tuners). On my telecaster I will go for the pin strap relocation. I have a Yamaha Attitude custom, which is a cheaper mid scale version of the Attitude LTD, the pin strap does not reach the 12th fret, and the headstock is really massive, plus the tuners are really heavy, they have a 1/2 inch shaft, and the material they are made of is really heavy, so changing that to hipshot ultralites is the best choice.... gotoh makes the resolite model that is cheaper. In this case the neck plate is not a regular one but two so modifying that is not as "reversable" as with the tele where you can easily hide the whole with a new neckplate. Mind you the tele is an SX So these instruments are not expensive.
To listen what physics tell you you have to consider BOTH the strap forces and positions. Sorry but that gaffer tape thing you did there does not properly mimic moving the back strap button 🙄
Do you want to drill a hole in your guitar? My peavey Wolfgang is getting Collectible as was my old usa bc rich warlock and I'm not going to chance it with a guitar like that.
Видеоклипы
The guitar will balance on one strap point (your fulcrum) because that is on the centre of gravity.
But when its around your neck on the strap, that balance point changes to half way between the two strap pins, that is why it still drops
That makes sense. So obvious. Then moving the strap button an inch is only going to move the balance point a half inch. Hmmm...
@@JoeHartRocks But why does it get worse when moving even further towards the neck?🤔 What worked for me on a Washburn SI10 and a Telecaster (both guitars) was to move front the strap button on the front of the neck heel. It didn't work on an Ibanez GSR200 bass though.
What I did was move my back straplock to the backside of the bass, that cured neck dive because it was leveraging against itself and didn't pull down as hard, not a full fix but definitely better than the factory position
My experience with a diving SG was to get a strap that'd provide friction on my shoulder. Didn't have to be leather either. You can tell by just rubbing your fingers over the inside of the strap whether it'll be up to the challenge. To me that's the easiest and most effective way to eliminate (mostly) neck dive.
Yeah, but I don't like it pulling on my shirt. I fixed the issue with lighter tuners.
Get a SCUBA weight pouch and put it at the bottom of the strap by your hip. Then add appropiate weight into the pouch as needed to counter balance the neck dive
I'm glad I didn't get my drill out.
The solution is a strap that is wider and has some grip either by way of foam like a Comfort Strapp or a wide leather strap. Either will provide enough friction to hold the strap and your bass in place.
Yes, the issue is that I find those straps uncomfortable and my shirt keeps rubbing and pulling. :-(
Try a different guitar strap, one that causes a little friction against your shoulder. It works for my 6 string SG. I haven't tried it on my SG short scale bass yet.
IDK? Maybe attach both ends of your strap to the horn position, like a saxophone strap and try that !!! You may or may not have to put the strap around your neck. Sounds crazy but it might work.
as soon as you let go, at the beginning, you can see the bass drops to the point where both strap buttons are even (parallel to the ground). So the strap is held up around your shoulder and neck, which technically is just one point of contact even if it is pretty wide, comparatively. The center of gravity for your bass seems to be close to center. if the back strap button were raised on the body (where most bass players rest their arm to play fingerstyle) and move the forward strap button to the back of the neck plate you might have exactly what you want. This would make both points even like when you let go or where the bass wants to rest. Don't take my word for it, though. Thanks for posting this video!
Hmmm. I'll try that. Because the bass sounds great and the neck feels great, it just won't balance.
@@JoeHartRocks I can empathize. my first bass is a five string and I never want to sell it, but has such severe neck dive. Maybe after 24 years I can stop being so precious about it and try to fix it. lol Best of luck, man!
Yes. The top horn isn't a fulcrum. When the neck dives, the top horn slides down with the strap. The strap button on the end of the horn doesn't stay in the same place while the bass pivots on either side of it. When you move the strap button up, you're putting more weight directly under the strap on that side. I think what happened when you taped it was that instead of pulling down from one point on the back, the force was spread out out over the body of the bass so it was like you moved the button up and moved it forward. That's why you were getting inconsistent results. Exactly where the strap button you're simulating is located changes depending on exactly where the tape is and which parts of the adhesive are doing the most work at any given moment.
If you were using physics, you've have to figure out some way to measure how much weight was being supported by every square centimeter of tape and average out all the force vectors to get the approximate location. It wouldn't be exact because the area of tape you'd be sampling could be always be divided into smaller sections that would give you a more precise result, but that's the nature of limits.
I appreciate that you wanted to find something out so you devised an experiment to test it. That's actually really commendable, but you have to be very careful about how you design your experiments for them to tell you what you want to know. This is kind of the same thing as a couple of years ago when people thought they could prove that moonlight was cold by measuring things in moonlight and things being blocked from moonlight with IR thermometers. In the cases where they got positive results, it was because whatever they used to block moonlight was slowly radiating heat.
Interesting. I really need to sort it out because I do like the bass. I've just gotten busy with other stuff... But I will definitely get back to it, so stay tuned. I will try a more scientific approach.
And that moonlight experiment is interesting! I mean, moonlight is reflected sunlight. So, it is composed of wavelengths of visible light and moving photons (I think -- I'd have to check that out). But there is energy there and it has to dissipate somehow (conservation of energy and all that)... so, heat.
@@JoeHartRocks Those Jaguar specials are pretty nice bases, especially for the price they were sold at. I didn't even notice before that the original pickups were replaced with the single MM style one. You did a really good job routing it for that. The four control knobs are the only way I can tell it didn't come from the factory like that.
I'm not really sure how you could take a more scientific approach aside from just putting in a new strap button and seeing what it does. I don't think you're going to find a way to attach a strap to a single point without putting a screw in the body. Even if you knew how to do the math to calculate where the strap button you're simulating with tape was, there are too many unpredictable factors to get a good practical result. I guess you could try it on another bass body and neck, but that's about it. You wouldn't regret just putting a higher strap button on it though because that will fix it. The button on my custom bass is 2 inches above the center.
Most of the people doing the moonlight experiment didn't agree that moonlight was reflected sunlight. They were flat Earthers who thought the sun and moon were independent light sources (because that's what it says in the bible) and they thought showing that moonlight is cold meant it was a different kind of light that couldn't be from the sun. They were dumb, but it's a great example of how you can get incorrect results if you don't set up an experiments very carefully. Depending on how you block the moonlight and when you check the temperatures, you really can find that objects exposed to moonlight have lower temperatures than objects shielded from moonlight.
Light is complicated. It's kind of particles (photons) and it's kind of not. It's like a wave until it hit's something and collapses into being a particle... Quantum physics is hard and I'm not an expert. I know enough to say that it's kind of weird to say it's composed of wavelengths of visible light. A wavelength is the distance between the peaks of a wave so light has wavelengths rather than being composed of wavelengths. That being said, the light we get from the sun is like a bunch of different waves stacked on top of each other (kind of like how overtones are stacked on top of the fundamental when you play a note on a bass) so it can be split up into different waves by wavelength. Most of the waves aren't in the visible light range though.
I just out my strap through my belt and it works fine.
Guys (you too Joe) I hear people say that you dont wanna make it heavier but look...average bass is 8 1/2 lbs. They go up to 13lbs and everywhere in between.
I bught wheel weights cos I had THE worst case of neckk dive, I mean it was pathetic. You let go of the neck and its shooting towards the ground.
I put 8 weights in the cavity to fix 70% of the neck dive.
Each weight is 1/2 oz. 8 weights, 4 oz.
so for the worst neck dive ever I added a quarter pound.
That is nothing! Unless you have a 13lbs plus bass and just couldn't bear another quarter pound, get the dang weights. Don't drill a hole like some backwoods donkey.
Hello Joe, is very Good, excelent idea!!! congratulations from brazil !!!!
Thank you. I actually just fixed the neck dive issue!!! ruclips.net/video/RsyjqarGQII/видео.html
What about if you put it higher up on the back of the body? Would save you from drilling into the forearm contour, my BC Rich JRV7 has serious neck dive so I might try something similar to this but on a V shaped body
Physics rules! If physical does not work - add more duct tape :) Good one Joe!
5 string basses are even worse as the neck is much heavier. Take your strap and use the acoustic string they send with the strap and tie the strap around the nut like an acoustic guitar. Problem solved.
I hate to break it to you, but you're wrong. Your experiment is flawed. Let me explain...
I tried the same experiment as you, using gaffers tape to hold the strap in place. When you try it this way, it seems it will make little difference. However, forget the tape, you don't need it as it alters the physics. Pinch the strap against the body in the original button location. Notice that you have neck dive (nothing has changed). Now, move the strap tip up higher on the guitar and pinch it to the body and notice that it changes the whole center of gravity. It literally points the headstock up towards the ceiling to a degree. It may not solve the problem completely, but, combined with other solutions (guitar gummies on the strap, added weight to control cavity), I was able to eliminate my neck dive issues.
What do you mean by pinch the strap closer to the body? Thanks
Try putting the back strap in the middle of the guitar body. Front strap {* * }*Old position
Hope that makes sense. I have done this on my guitars. There is no neck dive at all. More like back dive.
Try taping the strap there before you drill, to see if it works for you.
It does make sense. I'll try it!!
@@JoeHartRocks ruclips.net/video/X5GDDDlha1A/видео.html
What if when you went to peel the tape off the whole top coat of the paint came off...... HA!
Yikes!!! :-(
i had quite a lot of neck dive on my a bass with a body i built myself. the body is heavy but short, the shape is a lot like the les paul junior tribute bass. anyway, this results in the neck strap button not being high enough up the neck giving it a lot of neck dive. people often suggest moving the neck strap from the horn to where the neck joins the body, but this only made it worse. so i tried moving the back strap button up like you did which had a slight positive effect. i then tried putting the strap on the back of the body a bit away from the edge. i put it pretty much under the bridge but i tiny bit up like you did in the video. moving it in towards the middle seemed to have more effect than moving it up at least on my bass.
Interesting. I actually bit the bullet and bought the Gotoh Ultra-Lites. That worked!!!
ruclips.net/video/RsyjqarGQII/видео.html
And? Did you manage to solve it? I have the same bass but a PJ and it also dives like mofo. I got it 2nd hand for cheaps so don’t really want to spend a whole lot. The licensed hipshots ultralites are about as much as I’m willing to spend, though preferably even less. I already filled the cavity for the jack(want a jack socket in the control plate)with steel BBs and it hasn’t really made a difference.
Sort of. I posted an update video on my channel.
Is that bass full scale i love it and what you using for locks
It is full scale. I think that's a big part of why it is unbalanced. The strap locks are just metal washers I bought at a hardware store.
@@JoeHartRocks got a close up pic of the screws and washers you use everytime I go to the hardware store they seem to not know what im looking for
@@Thecarolinapiper they are 1/8" by 1" Fender Washers. And I just use the screw from the strap button.
I have literally never dealt with necktive in my life. And all I've ever played is either a fender pig or a fender jay. Leo fender spent so much time on strap buttons and their location. 12th fret and at the heel of the body. Never have I ever had A problem.
What if you attached the strap to the nut instead? Would that stop the neck dive?
But then the bass hangs in a really odd position and I can't play with it like that. :-(
A lot of acoustic guitars are manufactured with only one button assuming you tie the strap to the headstock, but it actually introduces unwanted tension to your neck when you're playing standing up. You DON'T want that kind of varying tension in your guitar neck for a number of reasons.
I did this with Hofner violin bass and it was much better with the dive but feels very insecure. Strap falls off shoulder. Wide strap (9cm) is best
Ok this is funny. Not only am I here because I have the same problem, but I have the exact same bass! I was also considering the exact same fix and thought my way through the exact same excrement with the tape!
Whatever happened with this? I saw a suggestion down below about moving the front pin around back (on the neck plate) as well as moving the rear pin up a few inches to change the point at which they sit level.
I replaced the tuners with ultra light tuners (ruclips.net/video/RsyjqarGQII/видео.html) and then went another step further and moved the strap button away from the body and towards the headstock (ruclips.net/video/dp_SBmgKyUM/видео.html).
I would change the strap pin position on the other end (the "horn").
To where? I would think it needs to be further from the body (closer to the headstock).
@@JoeHartRocks if you are designing the bass from scratch then yes. The strap pin should be by the 12th fret or a bit further in a long scale bass. But if changing the body is not an option. Then I saw people putting the pin around the neck plate on telecaster type guitars or jackson/bc rich, some SGs as well.
Some people attach weight to the strap...
Also if the tuners are heavy they could be the problem, but I asume it is not your case (I am thinking of heavy vintage tuners).
On my telecaster I will go for the pin strap relocation. I have a Yamaha Attitude custom, which is a cheaper mid scale version of the Attitude LTD, the pin strap does not reach the 12th fret, and the headstock is really massive, plus the tuners are really heavy, they have a 1/2 inch shaft, and the material they are made of is really heavy, so changing that to hipshot ultralites is the best choice.... gotoh makes the resolite model that is cheaper. In this case the neck plate is not a regular one but two so modifying that is not as "reversable" as with the tele where you can easily hide the whole with a new neckplate. Mind you the tele is an SX
So these instruments are not expensive.
To listen what physics tell you you have to consider BOTH the strap forces and positions. Sorry but that gaffer tape thing you did there does not properly mimic moving the back strap button 🙄
Do you want to drill a hole in your guitar? My peavey Wolfgang is getting Collectible as was my old usa bc rich warlock and I'm not going to chance it with a guitar like that.
That's a good point!
your strap isnt helping
Just use an acoustic strap and tie it around the nut. Problem solved.
No way!! That puts a lot of sideways stress on the neck which it was not designed for. I don't even do that with acoustic guitars. It's a bad idea.