The Secret To Miters That Never Crack!(Wood Glue VS CA Glue)
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- Опубликовано: 1 окт 2024
- CA Glue used in this Video: amzlink.to/az0...
Cheaper CA Glue Option that I've used in the past: amzn.to/3T9qml6
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How about a round of applause for that Home Depot bucket!
Bravo bucket, you’ve gone done it again!!!🍻I bought 4 of those babies last time and haven’t regretted it for one second!
A timeless classic
The mighty bucket!💪
MDF is ridiculously thirsty when it comes to wood glue.
With all due respect I think this test is flawed. The results are clear as you demonstrate them, but that is simply not a representative of the actual type of stress on that joint. 98% of my work is trimming new construction, and in my experience nothing holds better than a biscuited wood glue joint. In fairness, not everyone has 4 dozen Hartford clamps, and I only do because I got lucky at an estate sale. But when I come in to a new job I pre-make my casings with biscuits, wood glue and hartford clamps, and let them sit 24 hours before installing them. And they have a 0% call back. The ONLY call backs I have ever gotten on mitered casings is when I did one on the fly with CA glue, without a biscuit. The obvious variable and flaw in my results, is the absence of a biscuit in the CA joints, but IMO, the reason miters in casings crack is because seasonally the wall framing shrinks and expands at a different rate than the jambs, or even itself for that matter. a 2x4 with 12 fat growth rings is going to expand and cocntract more than a 2x4 with 24 growth rings. So this is just unavoidable. IMO (untested, just my experience) the stress on the joint is 90 degrees from the way you are testing it, and add a little twisting to it. But I'm not sure that really matters...clearly the CA is stronger. But I think it's too strong. I think it's brittle. It's like hardened steel that doesn't get tempered. IMO the wood glue allows for micro movement without cracking. But again, not scientific. just an old boomer, doing his old boomer way and liking his old boomer results.
What I have found, when I need to do one on the fly without time to let it sit in clamps, I biscuit the joint and using wood glue in the biscuit and on most the joint, and then CA on the inside and outside edge, as a chemical clamp, I can get pretty similar results.
Edit: I think we have a drastic difference in the quality of our framing materials in Connecticut vs Vancouver. And I think this make the type of shrinking I'm experiencing more drastic. But what do I know. Just an old boomer set in his ways.
Some excellent points here mate! I did consider adding biscuits into the equation, but ended up thinking it's a very unrealistic option for most people. I'd also say with the CA glue result can definitely vary depending on how you put them together! Cheers.
@@TheFunnyCarpenter It's certainly fair that biscuits are not available to everyone, especially in a YT audience. And I think they are a big factor in my results, just in the surface area of glue. And it would be stupid expensive to use CA for the amount of glue needed with biscuits.
due to this poor contact issue with wood glue, i use caulking for in-place joint glue ups. perhaps not as solid as CA glue but better than poorly clamped wood glue joint IMO.
That's a very interesting point. I remember testing this out with my Dad 20 years ago....I think the Dap caulking was stronger than wood glue, but I'm not 100%. That could make for another interesting video.
I have seen other yt videos say the glue is stronger but dries rigid. So impacts or stress over time makes it more brittle compared to dapp, which dries with more elaciticity so can handle impacts, stress, and shocks better in the long run.
Excellent video, thanks for taking all that time to make it!
I use PL Premium for my own house and don't have a single crack after seven years
Great video. I've never used CA glue and I'm excited to try it. It was never mentioned during any aspect of my apprenticeship, neither on the job nor at school, so I'll need to watch your other video to learn some more about it
Interesting. I really don't think 100+lbs. is necessary for a miter joint that's just nailed to a wall, but in your profession, speed is important.
If it was “broke back” when you got back then you’re putting your glue in the wrong crack!!😂😂
I've had great luck with high temp hot glue for mdf moulding. I've also heard good things about pur hot melt. Great video, I'll have to consider CA glue again.
Yellow glue needs clamping pressure for many minutes to develop full strength. Clam clamps are ideal for miter joints. Without clamping pressure, the yellow glue test isn’t valid.
I was thinking the same... he didn't use much clamping pressure
Interestingly enough, I just watched this exact test recently, and the result was the exact opposite. (video title you are clamping too long, by woodcraft by suman). For extreme amounts of clamp time, you did get marginally better performance, but for most practical applications of a tight fitting joint, not clamping at all performed better (for example, 12 hours clamped is worse than 24 hours never clamped, and 30 minutes clamped and then 24 hours after the clamps were removed was MUCH worse than 24 hours never clamped.
What wood glue requires are two things: a tight fitting joint, and to not be disturbed after assembly. It can still muster a high strength joint without clamps, and in fact, if you clamp it for only half an hour and then remove the clamps, the joint gets WEAKER, than if you had never used clamps at all. (for a tight fitting joint, to be clear. I don't know of any way to really measure performance of bad joinery).
Tellingly, Titebond (original)'s own instructions state that you need "enough pressure to bring joints tightly together". It has some numbers afterwards, but the first sentence makes it clear, if the joint is tightly together, the glue is working, and that is definitely what I have observed, as we do a lot of wood glue on outside miters for baseboard. They do hold together, as long as you don't have any springing open after you apply glue. (not a tight fitting joint). Wood glue is commonly used without clamps, and it performs fine.
Frankly, though, I don't really see this test as super relevant. The way we install casing, we nail immediately on both sides of the corner, so the nails are holding the corner to probably a single piece of material, be that a stud, a jamb, or even some drywall. Even if the house DOES shift, the joint only gets stressed if material on either side of the joint are being moved relative to each other, which is very difficult when then joint is nailed directly to a single 2 inch wide piece of material. That 2 inch piece is unlikely to expand, contract, or shear itself very much.
Also, at work, we use both wood glue and CA glue, without issues. Strength isn't really the issue in professional finish carpentry, CONSISTENCY is. It's never about how good is your average joint, it's about how good is the absolute worst joint. Consistency of performance is the key, which is why we love CA so much. Because you CAN disturb the joint immediately after use, it is not vulnerable to mishap, or interference of other trades. Wood glue can be.
Mathias Wandell did a video years ago testing wood glue and the pieces he used less clamp pressure held better.
Thats why I use wood glue and CA with activator together, the wood is for strength the CA to act as clamp.
It would be interesting to see you test the Pur hot melt polyurethane glues.
Great video. Giving Project Farm a run,
That is 25 lbs force generating a torque not pressure
I'm frankly surprised how much CA can hold.
Broke-did😊
Hey, great tests... appreciate your research and testing
ive never used the CA glue, but it seems like you dont get very much in those little bottles, and theyre pretty spendy.. if you were trimming out a whole house it seems like it would be much more expensive
Not relative to the cost of a professional's time. You can case probably about 3000-4000 square feet of house with a 100g bottle. That's about 25 dollars. It isn't free, but it's a pretty crazy place to try to save 25 bucks.
also, you can just buy bulk CA. I don't, because my CA is employer provided, but it is freely available in my area in 8 ounce bottles, and it would only take you a couple minutes to find a 16 ounce bottle supplier online. By that point, you are getting glue at.... about 12 dollars per 100g bottle.
@@timmietimmins3780 Agreed, price of CA is inconsequential to a professional, or to anybody who values their time over about $5 an hour.
That's cool, like I said I've never tried it. Those bottles just look really little but they obviously do more than I would have guessed. 👍
I use really good Titebond 3 on miters and after installing paint grade trim, I rub sparkling compound into the joint and lightly sand. my joints still look perfect after 15+ years.
It's my understanding that CA glue gets brittle over time and in as little as 12 months loses a lot of its as strength. Are you concerned about that?
That's a good point. I have some reference in the fact I live in a house that I used the CA glue method. 18 months later still no cracks. I do have some sample trims I glued up a year ago, maybe I will make another vid and test this out.
I think the CA glue penetrates better. I wonder how the wood glue would do if mixed with a solvent.
Penetration is not your friend with CA glue - its bond is all at the surface layer. Penetration can drive all the glue into the wood and leave little for the joint.
@@connecticutaggie If all the glue penetrates sure, I agree. If only some of it penetrates, I'd argue that it makes the bond stronger. We can see this in manufactured goods like MDF, where there is no surface glue, it's all penetrated into the fibers. Another example are laminates like fiberglass and carbon fiber.
I actually like to mix a little saw dust from the wood im using with some good wood glue into a paste as a nice filler as well.
Interesting video! This goes to show why biscuits are important on those miters. I use a lot of ca glue myself and this gives me confidence! I also mix both glues a lot (a couple dabs of ca glue and a small bead of wood glue) for the best of both worlds, but maybe that’s not actually required. Thanks!
Weight x Arm = Moment… was the bucket in the same location horizontally for each test?
Also, if you attach it 3” off the floor instead of 3’ you’re much less likely to get hurt when it goes crashing to the ground
“Broke back”!!! LOL!
Another great video!
The wood glue needs proper clamping pressure to be effective. Try this test again with clam clamps and wood glue and I bet you it will out preform the CA glue by a lot on wood trim
I must be doing something wrong, when I use that ca glue on pine trim they come apart when I’m putting them up. Very brittle joint.
25 lbs pressure strength on a miter joint sounds like about 24.5 lbs more than I've ever needed. Guess I'm not tossing out my wood glue just yet! Nice to know CA is available when or if I ever need a stronger joint though. Thanks! 👍
The point of this video was not to prove that CA is stronger than wood glue. The point was to prove that wood glue does not have a strength advantage in miters, so there isn't any reason to use wood glue instead of no-clamp no-wait CA.
@@SplashJohn I'd be curious about how well CA lasts over time compared to wood glue. The conventional wisdom is that CA fails pretty quickly, but it'd be interesting to see whether that's actually true or not (in theory, humidity and vibration both fatigue CA a lot more than wood glue, but testing would prove/disprove).
@@SplashJohn
Theres a huge reason to use wood glue.
When you get some squeeze out you can take your palm sander and sand the miter, creating sawdust and it will bind with the glue to fill the miter 110%.
CA glue on poplar is not good. Some joints barely hold while handling the pieces. Titebond quick and thick is what I use and try to let it dry for an hour
thanks for the info
Great video. Thanks
This does not work on oak trim. The density of the wood does not allow the glue to soak in.
Where do you get your 2p10 from? I haven't found anywhere in BC that sells it and Amazon seems ridiculously expensive for it. I use Mitre bond and whatever it is home Depot has but I'd like to actually get the 2p10
My house moves up and down, what is the glue for that? Great content!
Slow down sparky. A home that might settle or have seasonal expansion and shrinkage making forces that aren’t linear!!?? Like one commented, TORQUE. Pressure or weight test is a test tube scenario and pretty much useless for a living structure that breathes and is connected to air, all the elementals lol sacré bleu!! Whoever uses the most flexible caulking has the greatest efficiency I would think. One commenter uses screws tho that also would be superior
If I use CA glue, then nail the top piece while securing the vertical pieces in a way that can move slightly, then, never crack.
I have a theory… that the activator actually diminishes the final strength of the CA bond.
By spraying the activator on one surface the glue cures before it can properly integrate with the wood fibres, at least on the side with the activator. So, even though it’s a bit of a hassle I will often apply the CA to both surfaces, press the joint together and then spray the activator on to the exterior of the joint hoping to gain a small amount of instant hold. I suppose a similar effect could be achieved by applying activator to a limited portion of the mating surfaces being sure that a large portion of the joint surface has wet glue which can cure gradually.
One of the big problems I see with these two gluing techniques is absorption. The dry porous wood is bad for both glues. My solution is a bit different for each.
When I do CA miter joints, I first seal the wood with thin (not gel) CA glue then after that dries, I apply a thin layer of gel CA glue and clamp until dry.
When I use Wood Glue, I fist saturate the surface with water then apply Wood Glue and clamp until dry.
The advantage of the CA glue technique is it is fast and strong but how have very little time to fiddle and the runout can stick to things. When using CA glue I often use positioning jigs.
The Wood Glue allows for a lot a fiddling time but it takes a lot longer to dry.
Do men typically hang heavy objects on framing?
That was a fun test!!!
this is a nice glue test but I dont understand what the load is that cracks the joint.
Doors slamming and seasonal shifting along with the expansion and contraction of wood
@@TheFunnyCarpenter
ah, makes sense
What about pvc trim?
I would like to see a test of a biscuited miter clamped with clam clamps
Interesting idea.
What about PL500? 😂
The cracks I get seem to be due to change in humidity. They open up in the winter and disappear in the summer.
Round 2: construction adhesive vs big stretch.
I was hoping to see some comments on how to address such corners - maybe that can be a video - I have lots of these opened up joints - how to close them?
Thanks for another great video!🇦🇺👴🏻
Bro…… 400k! Fantastic!
Thanks buddy🍻
Get test, I'm amazed that the bucket handle did not break.
Now try construction adhesive! It should handle misalignment really well and might have enough flexibility when cured to handle wood movement
Sounds like a plan
But you don't want the flexibility in this case, you want the glue to not allow any movement.
👍👍👍.Thank you
Welcome 👍
-Been hanging/trimming 2 dozen doors this week and used Kreg screws and titebond 3 in the miters. I wonder if ca glue could eliminate the screws.
Interior absolutely, ai personally use wood glue for strength but CA to act as a clamp holding pieces in place while wood glue sets up
🇦🇺 👋 😊
Cheers Maria:)
Thanks Man
Thank you.
Ca glue is supposed to be used in a thin even layer. And as it ages, it gets weaker, whereas good glue ages a lot better.
I've tested a bunch of variations of how to use CA glue for miters- what's shown in the video is the best method(my opinion). It's both strong and highly practical for high production work.
@@TheFunnyCarpenter high production being the key here, are you making videos for them or for home DIY people that want to spend a bit more time and a few more bucks to make things that last 30 to 50 years or more?
@@Ethan7s If your goal is to make something that will last 30 to 50 years, why are you watching a video about glueing up MDF and pine?
@@SplashJohnunsubbed
I see this argument all the time in youtube videos. I have not yet seen one that considers time as a factor. All of those cracks in door framing are affected by humidity and thermal shifts over time. Those frames are not carrying 45 lbs of weight.
Haven't been watching actual finish carpenter videos then as they use CA glue first and foremost because of the speed. As for the thermal shrinking, the CA glue still stops it from cracking as, at least with mdf, it creates a bond that is as strong as the rest of the material. So it may want to shrink a bit when humidity is low but can't.
@@curtisbme Right, right, then.. Got a link to a video that shows the effect over time? Or one that shows edge trim that genuinely carries 45 lbs? Either of which would actually address my comment.
@@marsrevolutionary Your 45lb comment means nothing. How it breaks is relevant though as it shows that the material is breaking, not the glue. As for showing that CA on MDF stops cracking at the joints and is much faster, if you have ever done trim work you would have all the evidence you need. I'm not going to bother to do the searches for you as you aren't actually interested in the information, just doubling down on your incorrect statement that there are no videos about it saving time or that it isn't going to stop cracking because of humidity.
What about the wood glue with a few nails to secure it ?
It works but only if there is good tight contact between the surfaces and clamped well with nails. Any error in those and it’s weak
The nails likely won't stop it from cracking, and the corner clamp and stretched out tape are going to give you better initial glue up contact.
Thanks man ! Let's hope for the best 1930's house are full of surprise. Worst case I have your videos on how to fix it ;)
CA tends to crack/break when shocked. I wonder how well this will hold up over the years of a door opening/closing?
Also, CA is more expensive.
@mohitthapa731❤❤