They can't come soon enough 🙂 A friend of mine told me about these a few weeks back and I've been happily binge watching them. I can't say quite how much I'm enjoying your perspectives on these episodes I've been watching for years.
This episode gave me an epiphany: Angel is just a masculine version of Cordelia. How? Angel is a vampire who gains a soul after being cursed by a Gypsy to feel the pain of his victims. And Cordelia is a mean rich girl/socioeconomic vampire who gains a soul after being cursed by an Irishman to feel the pain of all victims. They're the same person. What's the first thing Angelus does whenever he seizes control? He starts saying mean girl stuff to everyone. That's why it's not ultimately a problem for him to wear the pink motorcycle helmet. And why Wesley is into him. It's all clear now.
One of my favorite jokes in either series is Wesley being surprised Denzel didn't win an Oscar for Malcolm X and Angel following up with who doesn't love Denzel.
Really good. Little disappointed we didn't cover the rapey aspect of Darla's brilliant plan. I mean if you woke him up he would say no to this. So even if he's enjoying what he thinks is just a dream, it clearly isn't and that definitely violates consent. Still your analysis on the exact buttons she's pushing here to turn him evil again were worth the watch, even without that.
@@razycrandomgirl I think the fact that (as far as we know) she was only physically there for the last five seconds of the closing shot mean there isn't enough to that element in this particular episode to be worthy exploring. Once we get to Untouched and those that follow where it gets more explicit and protracted then I think there will be enough material to dig into it.
This episode has the most underrated pairing in the Buffy verse of Gunn and Cordy. I love the friendship they formed in this episode and wish it had more spotlight. When you add Wesley and that was a perfect trio that we'll soon see more of in these reviews.
@@RachaelAHughes I feel it would have been a more natural relationship than the ones they ended up in coming from someone who loved Gunn and Fred together..
@misanthropic nihilist for me they didn't even have to hookup it could have been what Xander and Buffy became once Xander got over his petty and toxic jealousy. In general I think team angels dynamic took a hit when Connor and Fred got thrown in as much as I love Fred her arrival made Wes and Gunn put her on a pedestal.
100% every time I watch this episode I really enjoy the Gunndelia dynamic. Their chemistry is so relaxed, the type where two opposites just click. It's a shame we didn't get more!
Wesley: Come on. What are you waiting for? Angel: *Holding pink helmet* I don't think it's gonna fit. Wesley: Oh, of course it will. Put it on. Angel: You know I don't need a helmet for protection. Wesley: Angel. It's the law in California. Do you want us to get pulled over? Angel: No. Wesley: Then what's the problem? Angel: Well, it's just, you know... the whole visibility issue. Not to mention the whole hat-head thing and, you know, when you really think about it, how come I have to wear the ladies helmet? Wesley: Stop being such a wanker and put it on! *Angel puts the pink helmet on* Wesley: Looks good. Hop on board gorgeous. Angel: You'll pay for this.
@@bevenstarlow Wesley and Spike's English accents are very good, especially compared to Angel's Irish, but whenever they swear it always gives them away for some reason.
@@subjectd6985 It's how it always goes, swearing is a more primal method of empahsis so if you fake it, it shows. It's the flipside of how we tend to revert to our native languages or accents when we truly have a good cuss in the moment.
I hated that bit (even though it is funny). I can't stand these fragile masculinity bits. Like when Xander asks "do we hug?" to Oz and he responds by saying "I think we are too manly." What does manliness have to do with hugging another human being you like/love! This kind of touch aversion literally contributing to men's depression and suicide! I cannot tolerate media (which is usually, exclusively American) that portrays guys in this manner anymore.
Before watching this guide I use to think that she was only doing the dreams because wolfram hart is making her too or she's doing it out of loneliness, but learning that her seduction is devious does make more sense maybe she wants revenge against angel for staking her, but in reality she probably just want angelus to turn her so she doesn't have to face her own mortality.
I’ve gotta say that David Nabbit was one character I always wanted to see more of. David Herman played him really, really well. I will say, however, that this does read as white folks writing what they think is a black story, and it’s just laughably...not 😂
I always felt Gunn had good chemistry with all the female characters he had interactions with. Gwen and Gunn or Faith and Gunn could have been interesting. Even in season 5 in the destiny episode it was a little sexual tension there with Eve.
@@boo5860 Wes and Gunn was Charlie's most interesting bond on the show even when they hated each other. It was sad to see them lose their brothers in arms comradery and even though they reconciled it was never regained.
True, but Gunn is trying to push Cordelia out of his world. By showing she can't be part of it, he's hopes she'll give up and leave him alone. Because, even if we want to be saved - we never act like we do. And we are willing to hurt those trying to save us.
Wanted to say a huge thank you for reigniting my love for Buffy and Angel. I loved them when I was first introduced to them over 15 years ago but then went through quite a long period of barely watching them. Your episode guides have reminded me why I love these shows and given me details that I had forgotten. As a result, I am now going through every episode of Buffy and Angel, watching the relevant episode guide before each episode. Thank you!
@@defrostedrobot77 As one of my friends likes to say, "'Technically accurate' is the best kind of accurate!" :-) BTW, there is a game show that I adore called "Um, Actually." It mixes pop culture and pedantry. Yum!
I'll admit, this is far more thought than I've ever put into this particular episode. I've never been a big fan of the A plot, concentrating more on the Darla/Angel seduction scenes. This is one I need to revisit.
Watching this episode, watching this episode guide, watching the discussion on masculinity and how what might be true of it in the past compares to what is true now is something we could spend days discussing. Just to go into a little bit keeping the focus solely on Angel... Was there some deeper meaning to Wesley making him wear the girl's helmet aside from poking a bit of fun or maybe hinting a little at Angel having insecurities about his masculinity? Well I do think there are signs that he does want to appear cool, play it cool. We saw this in the past when he was busted with the Mr. Gordo pig doll for example, we saw it with his embarrassment on singing and dancing, he wants to do it, do it well, but is something he seemingly feels is humiliating, something he's terrible at. *spoilers on* And we'd see it again when the swarmi discusses with him, of all the modes of transportation he could have goes for a cool hot rod convertible, in LA, with the sun and the vampire bit. We see it when Angelus goes off about the singing of Mandy and going to Mannilow concerts, for him this was hell, that's not cool, and Angel is embarrassed by it. We see it when he sees the cars Wolfram & Hart have ("Knew you'd pick the Viper.") We see it with the puppet episode and how important Angel's self image is and how much the curse affects him and the way others see him affect him. And we see it in the comics when Faith points out one time Angel confronts a bad guy how he set it all up to be some cool mano a mano showdown. Angel wanted this sort of Hollywood moment, and he accepts being called out on it. *spoilers off* To a large degree I think it speaks volumes to how important it is for Angel to have Buffy in his life, or to have had her in his life, because he would not have moved on from the self inflicted punishment for what he did had he not. Same with Doyle, he would have been happy playing vampire Bat without his involvement. And same with Lorne. And going into spoiler territory again... *spoilers on* We see Angel strike out on his own and we see the results, and at rock bottom we can identify with the despair he has, and cheer when he has his...uh, reverse "wake up and bang" moment. *spoilers off* If anything the scene with the women's helmet shows that Angel is self conscious about his masculinity, and in a broader sense having others around you, to rely on, whether it be a super powerful woman or a British nerd or a African street hoodlum, is not being unmanly. Angel draws strength from them and is stronger for it.
Wow, that’s a lot of thought put into a pink helmet but I enjoyed reading it. I do want to add though that I think it is the show poking a bit of fun at Angel and inviting the audience to laugh at him, not in a mean way but I think it is another way of adding depth and interest to the character. The writers and the character too to an extent is self-aware of Angel’s cool-guy, mysterious, broody aesthetic and it’s the type of character we’ve seen in tons of other media. Without these types of scenes to show other sides of Angel’s personality and imply that he cultivates and obsesses about his self-image, Angel wouldn’t be nearly as interesting or layered or likeable but instead be indistinguishable from the millions of other tortured guy clones from teen dramas. In fact, I didn’t like him in Buffy because, perhaps unfairly, that was the impression I had of him. Rewatching Buffy, I realise that’s not entirely true but I do still think that Angel shines in his own show and is much more developed and interesting there.
@@Scheherazade-pr4jt ...heh, putting the helmet aside and looking in broader terms, I agree that Angel is self aware at least of his masculinity, his need to look cool and in control, and when this goofball comes out it's great fun to watch. It also hints at that he's not insecure in his manliness when these moments come out. And that could be a very interesting topic, masculinity and man's insecurity about how manly they are.
One of my favorite scenes from angel is the scene where they are sitting around after having just fought those vampires you get a sense of their daily routine and kind of relate to them in way
One of my favorite things about these videos is how you always take episodes I enjoy, but ultimately forget, and mine for so much meaningful goodness -- that when I go back and rewatch them later, they're richer experiences, almost like I'm watching the show again with new eyes.
I think the episode was made to do more with Gunns character which works but it works more in season 5 because his character goes through more of a growth in that season.
I write stuff sometimes, and from doing so I've noticed on several occasions that making purely accidental foreshadowing for things I had not yet decided to add in later on in the story, is definitely a thing. Obviously I notice when editing though, but tend to leave it as is because it just feels like a little grain of pure gold. A little piece of the writer's unconscious creativity. Accidental foreshadowing, double meanings, metaphors, subplot connections... these are the things that make writing so much fun. Contrary to that, not every aspect in a story has some greater, deeper meaning. Sometimes a character has the personality traits he has for no particular reason, other than you just so happened to imagine him that way, and then you have to stick to it and sometimes shoehorn it into the story, unless you wanna do some really drastic editing, which... probably isn't even possible if what you're writing is a tv series and the later discovered "oopsies" you now wish to edit are already on air. Yes, I agree that Gunn's character was a bit clumsy here and there, especially with the extra showy macho and racial comparisons that really got tiresome eventually, but at the same time I think they it played kinda nicely in this particular episode? I dunno about you, but I kinda felt like Gunn was just saying what a lot of us are thinking in situations like that but biting our tongues on. Things we're not supposed to say, lest we be labelled misogynist, but which in reality is telling of feeling encroached on, or belittled. I think Cordy crossed his boundaries, and that he was trying to establish them. So I could relate a lot to him there upon re-watching, but I cringed the first time I watched it years ago, because I hadn't yet understood those kinda things back then. Or maybe that's just me realizing I have similar kinda issues as Gunn: letting down my guard. So it may be a stereotype, but perhaps one worth exploring?
Really enjoyed this review. The line between authors intention and possible interpretation is an slippery slide and I like that you consider it in your reviews.
I stopped watching Angel on season 4. Couldn't handle the whole Connor thing, specially seeing Cordy as a shell of what she used to be. Always my favorite character. I also haven't been able to forgive Angel for (SPOILER!) trying to kill Wes after the whole baby Connor thing. I understand Angel's rage, but it felt so unfair that everyone turned on Wesley after he tried to save the baby. I can't wait to hear your take on that. However, your videos are reminding me of what made me like Angel in the beginning: Despite this being "his show", he's not supposed to be likable, but rather relatable. He has quirks and little details that make him likable, but not better than his teammates. I'll give Angel another chance...I'll remind myself that I'm not seeing a journey for redemption where he corrects his old mistakes without making new ones, but rather...tries his best to clean up a previous mess without making a bigger one in the process.
Season 5 is worth it, Cordy does get a redemption episode, Spike's fun (as usual), there's some fun episodes. But beware, there's heartbreak too, I'll let you find out, if you watch Season 5 that is.
Honestly Angel just became really depressing to watch after season 2. It's one of the main reasons I prefer Buffy despite Angel having arguably better storylines
Awesome as always ... I truly do enjoy being shown things from a perspective beyond face value. My friends might be surprised to hear that if we have ever disagreed on politics, but I would never let a political disagreement come between my friends and I, I am not so petty as that.
Interesting points about separation vs unity in this and "Are You Now or Have You Ever Been". But I think it's a little simplistic to say that the unity approach in AYNoHYEB is entirely the better one. Judy and Gunn do work as doubles for Angel in their own ways, but their experiences are still shaped by race in a way that Angel's isn't. I agree that relying on this stock-character stereotyping nonsense isn't the way to go about indicating that separation and definitely does a disservice to Gunn's character. But the unity approach of relating every struggle to Angel also leads to problem. Universalizing Judy's experience and the issue of racial "passing" to apply to vampirism (which is not a real thing) and a white character strikes me as rather appropriative. That's not to say that there aren't good things in that episode or in the idea of shared suffering. I just think it's a bit more complex than this approach good, that approach bad. It would have been interesting to have seen an episode that captured both unities of suffering and realities of social isolation without stereotyping. tldr: I think there's a story to be had in the social (race, class) isolation aspect of Gunn's character, but they effed up the execution here.
Appropriation gets a bad wrap. There is no better way to understand the plight of others than to walk a mile, metaphorically speaking, in their shoes, and appropriation accomplishes that.
@@dipperjc I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you on that one. Empathy accomplishes that. Appropriation uses the plight of others for one's own purposes. What works about "Are You Now or Have You Ever Been" is its empathy.
@@annatalksaboutstuff9476 I can concede that empathy is another way to accomplish the goal of helping people understand the plight of others. Perhaps even a "better" way. It's pretty obvious, however, that empathy is a skill that varies from one person to the next, and I still would suggest that appropriation is a good alternative to convey a point to those who lack sufficient empathy to get it on their own. On a separate note, though, is appropriation always "bad"? If I take a holocaust story, modify it with a sci-fi feel, and spice it up just to sell tickets and make money, am I not also drawing attention to the horrors of attempted genocide?
@@dipperjc I see what you're saying. And there are absolutely uses to and insights to be gained from framing things as allegory. (I say allegory instead of appropriation because I think a well-made allegory doesn't need to be appropriative, and also appropriation can exist in a work to varying degrees.) And, yeah, unsurprisingly, as a Buffy and Angel fan, fantasy and sci-fi allegory appeals to me, for sure. But I have to wonder at what point is that not enough? Like Angel (the show) can talk about race through allegory, but as we can see in this episode when it gets to specifics that kind of breaks down. So if a show can only talk about race in general, abstract terms, how impactful or truly engaging with the issue can it be (no matter how good its intentions)? I think we're sort of saying similar things. I guess I'm just trying to say that if allegory is what gets someone into starting to understand a complex issue, great! but that shouldn't be the end of the conversation.
@@annatalksaboutstuff9476 To be fair Ian said that Are you Now or Have you Ever Been approached the issue in the exact opposite manner. He didn't say one approach was better than the other though he did go into the nuts and bolts of the problems with the separation approach.
The main thing I remember about this episode is that you shouldn’t pull glass/sharp objects out of you or you’ll bleed out quicker. Life lessons from Cordelia.
Please give us examples, and what they mean. Most of the insults Spike uses are either completely inoffensive to Americans, or they’re terms we’re not familiar with (like “berk”). He asks Buffy: “Are you off your berk?” In the context he asked it, I inferred it meant “crazy” (but not literally crazy).
@@beachgirl4583 for example spike often uses a bunch of english insults that mean gay, like he uses poof at least twice in the series. That isn't really a swear word or anything but wanker is pretty rude. No way that would be on an equivalent uk show
name name, What does wanker mean, in Britain? Here, it refers to... erm... beating off, but it’s often meant as “idiot.” Spike used “git” a lot: “stupid git” which sounds redundant. Doesn’t git mean stupid? What does “berk” mean? I don’t remember him using “fag,” though he smokes. I suppose that would have offended Americans who don’t know it means “cigarette.”
Passion of the Nerd nice nice nice you could totally do a really interesting reflection of Bethany’s sexual trauma with Angel’s ongoing trauma. can’t wait, always look forward to your guides.
The "binging, chewy, getting to the meat" watching of this episode is a hard way to watch this one. Not because the episode is bad, but because I don't see a lot of said meat when casually watching. But when I "rewatch while taking notes" I get to it easier. The problem with that is that I have never tried to do that with this episode. I like the fact that Gunn and Cordelia are getting to know each other, but never really thought much past that. Like always you have made me see more than that. David Nabbit was a character I was confused on why they tried making him a part of the group. They should of kept him in just his single guest episode. The Divac storyline confused me for years or perhaps I was just bored by it. Still don't know which sometimes. The comfort references is something I never put together. Perhaps its because I never really thought much about that word when Angel used it in _Amends._ I was always confused as to why Angel never felt guilt or why Darla never made him feel guilty for him staking her in these dreams. Am I just forgetting that she did that? Love the Jane Austen reference. Cordelia complaining about ruined clothes but having no problem with being able to jump in when the need arises is why she is better here than with The Scoobies as the Scoobies don't see her that way. They still see her as S1 Cordy. I think Gunn being treated by the main cast the way he is in this episode compared to Judy in the last has more to do with the lack of Angel who wouldn't treat Gunn that way. I is the point of the story line to have Cordelia grow a little tiny bit more comfortable in the world she didn't know much about before. Learning what perceptions they have are correct and not correct is a part of the point to them being together without Angel being there. Cordelia "teaching independence" to Gunn isn't so much a bad moment so much as them realizing they have both made progress in learning about each other's and correcting their misconceptions. I think a part of the problem is that themes always have a good point, but tropes about race sexuality and gender can change with the times. Its why Xander and Gunn, for instance, have not aged as well as a lot of other characters, but themes are always well written throughout the generations.
Seriously good stuff. I keep telling my friends about the amount of insight and heart you put into your breakdowns. As always I’m looking forward to your next installment, thanks again!
As always a fantastic guide, you really do help me see elements of the shows so much clearer, or make me think about it in a different way! 😊 thank you
I have the feeling that I didn't get most of the points you were trying to make in this guide. Too bad, because they seem to be interesting ( your points usually are to me). I'll try to put back in my mind the silences between sentences and ideas to make some sense of your work at a later time. As you said, I might enjoy it more on a second viewing, when I'll understand all the parts that are still ambiguous for me.
This episode is just shy of 20 years old. I am white and not only work with a lot of black people at my job but also interact with many minorities all day, every day even. I even had a black girlfriend for over a year and I've gotta say, they bring up the issue of race and class way more than you apparently think they do. I can't go through a single day without hearing "white people do this" and black people do this" from many of them. For better or worse, it seems to be ingrained in their way of thinking. I'm not saying it's right but I am saying that if you think it's not a thing anymore in 2019 because of "woke culture", you're very VERY mistaken. Perhaps the ideology itself is an outdated concept but it's still prevalent in the black community. Just because societal perceptions change over time doesn't mean the mentality of every individual effected by past ways of thinking and being change instantaneously with it. People are people. People are flawed. People have to learn their own lessons and find their own way in life and in that respect, I think Gunn's journey as well as Corey and Wes' are more or less authentic to their characters at the time and deserve less critique and more understanding. It's through UNDERSTANDING that people learn to relate more, not through being told or preached to that their views are "wrong."
I think I'll be grateful the black people I work with are from Africa and never do that sort of thing. We all just do our work and occasionally make jokes to keep things from becoming monotonous. The issue of race never even comes up.
I mean American black people do get systemically fucked over in a lot of ways, so it’s no wonder if they bring up race and class often. It’s “ingrained in their way of thinking” because they live those issues - you don’t.
Aaaaaah. Finally got my PotN fix. But wait... Oh shit! It's gonna be another couple of weeks before we get a new video. Well, there went my fix. Hope I enjoyed it. (I did!)
Andy Hallett was a treasure to this world. However he did one thing that for the world. Hi reminded everyone you need to take care of your teeth or bad things can I happen to you.
What I remembered about this episode was nerdy guy doing his genius brain thing, Dreamla, and the pink helmet. I'd forgotten about Gunn and Cordy in this one.
I hadn't picked up on the Pride & Prejudice element of the title. But with this as with Sense and Sensitivity, I'm left wondering, did anyone actually bother to read the book? It's a thing I find with Angel, that they will often borrow from something deep and complex to promise depths they aren't prepared to explore. Yet in other moments they create true depth out of very little. It's part of the weird puzzle that is this series.
Usually, with Buffy, I do get the sense that they have actually read the thing. Here I'm not sure they've even read the Coles Notes, maybe the blurb on the back of the book. And we're talking about one of the giants of literature here, and a much-beloved story. To borrow our title from that you have to go a bit deeper than guy with pride, girl with prejudice. I expect better from these writers. Not all writers, these ones. That's what happens when you set a high standard.
I enjoy this episode David and Julie reunited after Buffy 1st season in E7 when his well Angelus’s ex mate (tried to kill his one true lover) have great chemistry when Darla appears in angel’s dreams (sleeping late!😂) she is now more Selina Kyle catwoman❤️and cause harmony is the Harley Quinn now😂 but funniest part Angel waking up choking Wesley making his voice squishing and not breathing 😂also the pink women’s helmet embarrassing😂🤣
Funnily enough first time I saw this episode I also didn't care for it but I recently re-watched it for the first time in years and found it too be quite fun.
14:11 People are a lot like this today: attributing their weaknesses or overcompensations to sexuality, race, gender, and class. I think Joss deals with that as a side issue in season 5 after some of Gunn's intellectual insecurity is proven to have had no basis, but people often hide what they COULD change behind things that cannot be changed
6:00 I think that trope is called Arbitrary Skepticism when a character lives in a world where strange or outright supernatural things exist and accepts that some exist but not others.
This is one of the episodes I usually skip because it is so cringe worthy with how Gunn speaks and just the overly dramatic way they try to show the dark side of the streets and being a gangster. The guide did allow me to find pieces of the episode I truly do love especially Angel and the pink helmet but I agree that J.August made this episode as good as it is. I just wish the writing had been better and less dated at times.
WB shows in the 90's did not handle the issue of race well at all. The episode "Are you now, or have you ever?" was an example of a broken clock still being right twice a day. This episode cements Gunn's starting point in concrete. *Spoilers* but the unfortunate issue is that his ending point in season five is a full blown uncle tom stereotype and in the final episode Cordelia's vision from this episode becomes a reality.
I think part of why Judy and Gunn are treated in opposite ways regarding race in these two episodes is that Judy was a mixed Black woman entering into a white space, while in this episode Gunn is a Black man existing within a Black space and team Angel, specifically Cordy, is entering that space, but only long enough to help their Black friend. You can't exactly say "it's just blood" about race when the accompanying social, cultural and economic differences are on display--not in a fully accurate diisplay, but an attempt is made. The writers dont actually know what real-life Gunn's world is like, and writing that part seems much harder for them than writing an individual Black character, even one who is dealing with uniquely Black experiences. This of course comes up again in future episodes, especially in Thin Dead Line, which I find fascinating because of all the amazing parts mixed in with all the stupid ones
I don’t see the problem with the issue of masculinity in this episode. The exploration of masculinity is a constant theme of Angel. It may not be the specific focus of an episode (yet), but we’ve already had several male characters who perform along a spectrum of masculinity: Doyle, Angel, Wesley, Lindsey, David Nabbit, Lorne, and Charles Gunn. Where does Darla fit in with this? Well, she has power over Angel and is diminishing his effectiveness as a leader and champion. In fact, she reminds me quite a bit of Spike in S6. I appreciate that AtS is trying to address issues of class and race, even if the execution is clunky and stereotypical. The problem is that the writers room is white, and the stereotypes and dialogue employed are embarrassing. However, it would be wrong to act as if there would not be any clashing between Cordelia and Wesley and Gunn. Cordelia and Wesley could not more full of white privilege if they tried. They have no idea of what it is like to be Gunn, and if the writers pretended otherwise, then they would be writing the color-blind or post-racial nonsense that some shows do today in 2019. “By instead drawing a line between two worlds, the writers have been emphasizing separation, inadvertently codifying one side as 'normal,' and the other as strange and unknowable, and putting Gunn in the awkward position of figuring out how to move between them.” Well, yes. Welcome to what it is like for a nonwhite person navigating white spaces. Gunn’s identity is further complicated by his socioeconomic class and education compared to Wesley, Cordelia, and Angel. I think it’s unfair to compare the brilliant OYNOYEB to this. Angel and Judy were able to connect via their mutual isolation and otherness, but you can’t achieve that resolution for Gunn and our white characters in one episode, nor do I think that would be culturally respectful or interesting writing. I agree that it’s not a great look to have a white girl save Gunn, but that’s what happens when all of your other characters are white. So again, we return to the need for inclusivity, both behind and in front of the camera.
Great comment. And I don't disagree with anything you said here, really. The fact that you might think I do leads me to believe the essay is pretty muddled. Which...really...was the only thesis I was presenting about this one: Things got muddled. It's not necessarily a thesis that's going to set the world on fire but...it's mine. --- "Well, yes. Welcome to what it is like for a nonwhite person navigating white spaces." Right. Just setting up some Season 5 conversations there was all..
@@PassionoftheNerd I hope my comment did not sound hostile or negative. Reading it back, it does seem a bit stern. I love your videos, and I did not comment on the many great points you made. I caught the S5 reference, and it is a shame that it took them so long to fully explore that, especially given that they had been hinting towards that for several seasons (and blatantly addressed it in S4 "Players"). Joss admitted in his audio commentary for "Conviction": "We didn't often know what to do with J.'s character. He had a real sense of feeling out of place, so I wanted to show something from J. that people hadn't seen. Plus he looks really good in a suit." Which makes me just...smh.
What does "masculine" or "feminine" mean in this context? Because if we're not just talking about stereotypes applied to men and women based on their sex, what are we talking about?
I don't know about you but for a guy who is more a Buffy fan than Angel fan (love both BTW), putting back to back eps 1-3 of S5/S2 respectively IMO Angel first 3 eps destroy Buffy first 3 eps (so far.....). Judgement is well meh but so is BvsD. And I really enjoy Have you now... (duh) and this one even though is not that popular
I choose to see it not as a white girl saving a black man but as the ptb recognizing gunn as vital to the mission and trying to help him before he self destructs from guilt, could it have been a simple convo with angel talking about guilt yes, but angel always does that with anyone whose got a guilty conscience. And yes the writing couldve been better for the villains but I like gunn pointing out class and race, his story arc was interesting as well. the writers didnt have to do this, focus on humans in LA completely separate from the angel sphere, but it makes angel better they did.
I take it between seasons 1 and 2 that's when she started taking the mission more seriously. It's been shown in both shows watchers have vast knowledge show Wes probably taught her the basics atleast.
Possibly when she was a cheerleader? Basic first aid is part of cheerleader knowledge. She had to have some experience with the Scoobies, too. She sustained several injuries herself on BtVS.
She lived in Sunnydale on top of a Hellmouth where something was always trying to kill them. I'd be more surprised if she hadn't learned at least basic first aid. And moreso after she fell through the floor and got impaled that one time.
Next Up(ish):
Buffy S05E04 Out of My Mind
New Nerd Chipper
Firefly S01E03 Bushwhacked
Angel S02E04 Untouched
They can't come soon enough 🙂 A friend of mine told me about these a few weeks back and I've been happily binge watching them. I can't say quite how much I'm enjoying your perspectives on these episodes I've been watching for years.
Angel epiphany please!
This episode gave me an epiphany: Angel is just a masculine version of Cordelia. How? Angel is a vampire who gains a soul after being cursed by a Gypsy to feel the pain of his victims. And Cordelia is a mean rich girl/socioeconomic vampire who gains a soul after being cursed by an Irishman to feel the pain of all victims. They're the same person. What's the first thing Angelus does whenever he seizes control? He starts saying mean girl stuff to everyone. That's why it's not ultimately a problem for him to wear the pink motorcycle helmet. And why Wesley is into him. It's all clear now.
LMAO I love it.
Wish i was cursed with a kiss. Wait, I've got an ex wife. Nvm.
I loves this so much.
Well done, my friend. Wow. Never thought of it this way. No wonder she balances him out so well.
Omg that's amazing
Fussy/pouting Angel is totally my favorite aspect of the character. It's always gold whenever they bust that out.
One of my favorite jokes in either series is Wesley being surprised Denzel didn't win an Oscar for Malcolm X and Angel following up with who doesn't love Denzel.
The thought of Angel watching movies is just weird to me for some reason but I love it lol
I got a flashback to season 2.
Buffy
: "I think I just violated the guy code, big time."
Willow: "Poor Xander. Boys are so fragile."
I love the scene where they're spent after fighting vamps so much. Gunn leaves and Wes scoots over to rest his head on Angel's shoulder. Adorable.
That part makes me happy :)
It’s ironic that you enjoyed this episode more on your second viewing
I...hunh.
Really good. Little disappointed we didn't cover the rapey aspect of Darla's brilliant plan. I mean if you woke him up he would say no to this. So even if he's enjoying what he thinks is just a dream, it clearly isn't and that definitely violates consent. Still your analysis on the exact buttons she's pushing here to turn him evil again were worth the watch, even without that.
Maybe it will come up next episode with 'Untouched'. Thank you for bringing it up tho, I do hope it gets addressed.
@@razycrandomgirl I think the fact that (as far as we know) she was only physically there for the last five seconds of the closing shot mean there isn't enough to that element in this particular episode to be worthy exploring. Once we get to Untouched and those that follow where it gets more explicit and protracted then I think there will be enough material to dig into it.
@@BadWolf739 i said this but with less words
This episode has the most underrated pairing in the Buffy verse of Gunn and Cordy. I love the friendship they formed in this episode and wish it had more spotlight. When you add Wesley and that was a perfect trio that we'll soon see more of in these reviews.
@The Reverse i liked the you're welcome fan fiction.
I initially thought they were setting up a ship, and I was ready to board. But I love the friendship also.
@@RachaelAHughes I feel it would have been a more natural relationship than the ones they ended up in coming from someone who loved Gunn and Fred together..
@misanthropic nihilist for me they didn't even have to hookup it could have been what Xander and Buffy became once Xander got over his petty and toxic jealousy. In general I think team angels dynamic took a hit when Connor and Fred got thrown in as much as I love Fred her arrival made Wes and Gunn put her on a pedestal.
100% every time I watch this episode I really enjoy the Gunndelia dynamic. Their chemistry is so relaxed, the type where two opposites just click. It's a shame we didn't get more!
In my opinion Gun is important to the group, because he is the only true person from Los Angeles. Every other came from the Buffy-Town Sunnydale.
Great factor right here
Wesley: Come on. What are you waiting for?
Angel: *Holding pink helmet* I don't think it's gonna fit.
Wesley: Oh, of course it will. Put it on.
Angel: You know I don't need a helmet for protection.
Wesley: Angel. It's the law in California. Do you want us to get pulled over?
Angel: No.
Wesley: Then what's the problem?
Angel: Well, it's just, you know... the whole visibility issue. Not to mention the whole hat-head thing and, you know, when you really think about it, how come I have to wear the ladies helmet?
Wesley: Stop being such a wanker and put it on!
*Angel puts the pink helmet on*
Wesley: Looks good. Hop on board gorgeous.
Angel: You'll pay for this.
I love that scene but the way wesley says wanker always irritates me as a brit
@@bevenstarlow Wesley and Spike's English accents are very good, especially compared to Angel's Irish, but whenever they swear it always gives them away for some reason.
This plays like someone arguing with their beau to use a condom.
@@subjectd6985 It's how it always goes, swearing is a more primal method of empahsis so if you fake it, it shows. It's the flipside of how we tend to revert to our native languages or accents when we truly have a good cuss in the moment.
I hated that bit (even though it is funny). I can't stand these fragile masculinity bits. Like when Xander asks "do we hug?" to Oz and he responds by saying "I think we are too manly." What does manliness have to do with hugging another human being you like/love! This kind of touch aversion literally contributing to men's depression and suicide! I cannot tolerate media (which is usually, exclusively American) that portrays guys in this manner anymore.
Angel's issues in this season are really relatable. Who doesn't want comfort from significant other?
Agreed. And to sabotage through sleep? Devious.
Before watching this guide I use to think that she was only doing the dreams because wolfram hart is making her too or she's doing it out of loneliness, but learning that her seduction is devious does make more sense maybe she wants revenge against angel for staking her, but in reality she probably just want angelus to turn her so she doesn't have to face her own mortality.
@@PassionoftheNerd If a pretty girl wants to seduce me in my dreams for nefarious purposes, go ahead. I won't complain.
Darla went from Harley Quinn to Catwoman.
"Sniveling, whiny little cry-Buffy" is one of my favorite lines.
It is demeaning. It's rude. Buffy is tougher than Cordelia is as a character. Cordy is more whiney.
@@PutinsPervertedConcubine64 Do you need a hug?
@@elizabethblackwell6242 No. I have a boyfriend who I can hug.
I’ve gotta say that David Nabbit was one character I always wanted to see more of. David Herman played him really, really well. I will say, however, that this does read as white folks writing what they think is a black story, and it’s just laughably...not 😂
This episode made me hopeful for a cordy/gunn ship and all of their scenes are just tasty af
I always felt Gunn had good chemistry with all the female characters he had interactions with. Gwen and Gunn or Faith and Gunn could have been interesting. Even in season 5 in the destiny episode it was a little sexual tension there with Eve.
@@The810kid yeah I guess he's shippable with everyone to be fair, even wesley
@@boo5860 Wes and Gunn was Charlie's most interesting bond on the show even when they hated each other. It was sad to see them lose their brothers in arms comradery and even though they reconciled it was never regained.
True, but Gunn is trying to push Cordelia out of his world. By showing she can't be part of it, he's hopes she'll give up and leave him alone.
Because, even if we want to be saved - we never act like we do. And we are willing to hurt those trying to save us.
Excellent take here!
I love Gunn He is my
favorite
character after Angel
I loved him and Fred as a couple they were so cute together.
@@cecilhester Yes Gunn and Fred were a very cute couple
This episode shows how much of a great character Darla is. I LOVE IT!!!
Wanted to say a huge thank you for reigniting my love for Buffy and Angel. I loved them when I was first introduced to them over 15 years ago but then went through quite a long period of barely watching them. Your episode guides have reminded me why I love these shows and given me details that I had forgotten. As a result, I am now going through every episode of Buffy and Angel, watching the relevant episode guide before each episode. Thank you!
Darlee Quinn!!! :-D
@@defrostedrobot77 As one of my friends likes to say, "'Technically accurate' is the best kind of accurate!" :-)
BTW, there is a game show that I adore called "Um, Actually." It mixes pop culture and pedantry. Yum!
Hey youtube algorithm! I enjoy this content, please recommend this to more people as I am an engaged viewer!
Thank you for the good word to the algorithm, engaged viewer.
I'll admit, this is far more thought than I've ever put into this particular episode. I've never been a big fan of the A plot, concentrating more on the Darla/Angel seduction scenes. This is one I need to revisit.
Gunn's bit is all foreshadowy and stuff.
I've never seen "26 seconds ago" in the 'when was this video posted' line before. Guess I just hopped on RUclips at the right minute 😊
With this comment I do decree that the dreaded algorithm of video approval look favourably upon the offer Ian hath given it.
I comment to compliment.
I comment to express gratitude for your work.
But mostly, I comment for the algorithm.
Watching this episode, watching this episode guide, watching the discussion on masculinity and how what might be true of it in the past compares to what is true now is something we could spend days discussing. Just to go into a little bit keeping the focus solely on Angel...
Was there some deeper meaning to Wesley making him wear the girl's helmet aside from poking a bit of fun or maybe hinting a little at Angel having insecurities about his masculinity? Well I do think there are signs that he does want to appear cool, play it cool. We saw this in the past when he was busted with the Mr. Gordo pig doll for example, we saw it with his embarrassment on singing and dancing, he wants to do it, do it well, but is something he seemingly feels is humiliating, something he's terrible at.
*spoilers on*
And we'd see it again when the swarmi discusses with him, of all the modes of transportation he could have goes for a cool hot rod convertible, in LA, with the sun and the vampire bit. We see it when Angelus goes off about the singing of Mandy and going to Mannilow concerts, for him this was hell, that's not cool, and Angel is embarrassed by it. We see it when he sees the cars Wolfram & Hart have ("Knew you'd pick the Viper.") We see it with the puppet episode and how important Angel's self image is and how much the curse affects him and the way others see him affect him. And we see it in the comics when Faith points out one time Angel confronts a bad guy how he set it all up to be some cool mano a mano showdown. Angel wanted this sort of Hollywood moment, and he accepts being called out on it.
*spoilers off*
To a large degree I think it speaks volumes to how important it is for Angel to have Buffy in his life, or to have had her in his life, because he would not have moved on from the self inflicted punishment for what he did had he not. Same with Doyle, he would have been happy playing vampire Bat without his involvement. And same with Lorne. And going into spoiler territory again...
*spoilers on*
We see Angel strike out on his own and we see the results, and at rock bottom we can identify with the despair he has, and cheer when he has his...uh, reverse "wake up and bang" moment.
*spoilers off*
If anything the scene with the women's helmet shows that Angel is self conscious about his masculinity, and in a broader sense having others around you, to rely on, whether it be a super powerful woman or a British nerd or a African street hoodlum, is not being unmanly. Angel draws strength from them and is stronger for it.
Wow, that’s a lot of thought put into a pink helmet but I enjoyed reading it. I do want to add though that I think it is the show poking a bit of fun at Angel and inviting the audience to laugh at him, not in a mean way but I think it is another way of adding depth and interest to the character. The writers and the character too to an extent is self-aware of Angel’s cool-guy, mysterious, broody aesthetic and it’s the type of character we’ve seen in tons of other media. Without these types of scenes to show other sides of Angel’s personality and imply that he cultivates and obsesses about his self-image, Angel wouldn’t be nearly as interesting or layered or likeable but instead be indistinguishable from the millions of other tortured guy clones from teen dramas. In fact, I didn’t like him in Buffy because, perhaps unfairly, that was the impression I had of him. Rewatching Buffy, I realise that’s not entirely true but I do still think that Angel shines in his own show and is much more developed and interesting there.
@@Scheherazade-pr4jt ...heh, putting the helmet aside and looking in broader terms, I agree that Angel is self aware at least of his masculinity, his need to look cool and in control, and when this goofball comes out it's great fun to watch. It also hints at that he's not insecure in his manliness when these moments come out. And that could be a very interesting topic, masculinity and man's insecurity about how manly they are.
now I really wish we would have seen more David nabbit and how he and Gunn might of development.
David Nabbit and Cordelia Chase would be a Xandelia 2.0
I like that they are wearing sunglasses and are sunbathing in the middle of the night.
Pro wrestling taught me an extra flip does more damage.
AJ Styles taught me that
One of my favorite scenes from angel is the scene where they are sitting around after having just fought those vampires you get a sense of their daily routine and kind of relate to them in way
*intro about the necessity of new models of masculinity*
"Oh wait, is this the episode with the pink helmet?"
One of my favorite things about these videos is how you always take episodes I enjoy, but ultimately forget, and mine for so much meaningful goodness -- that when I go back and rewatch them later, they're richer experiences, almost like I'm watching the show again with new eyes.
The opposite of insomnia is cinderellavitus.
That sounds made up but your name has the word Logic in it so I think I have to trust you.
@@defrostedrobot77 The moon is very cool. Cooler than the sun.
"...punched Riley in the Everything..." I'm gonna use that somewhere...HAHA
I think the episode was made to do more with Gunns character which works but it works more in season 5 because his character goes through more of a growth in that season.
Side note I love Cordelias hair here lol
I write stuff sometimes, and from doing so I've noticed on several occasions that making purely accidental foreshadowing for things I had not yet decided to add in later on in the story, is definitely a thing. Obviously I notice when editing though, but tend to leave it as is because it just feels like a little grain of pure gold. A little piece of the writer's unconscious creativity. Accidental foreshadowing, double meanings, metaphors, subplot connections... these are the things that make writing so much fun.
Contrary to that, not every aspect in a story has some greater, deeper meaning. Sometimes a character has the personality traits he has for no particular reason, other than you just so happened to imagine him that way, and then you have to stick to it and sometimes shoehorn it into the story, unless you wanna do some really drastic editing, which... probably isn't even possible if what you're writing is a tv series and the later discovered "oopsies" you now wish to edit are already on air.
Yes, I agree that Gunn's character was a bit clumsy here and there, especially with the extra showy macho and racial comparisons that really got tiresome eventually, but at the same time I think they it played kinda nicely in this particular episode? I dunno about you, but I kinda felt like Gunn was just saying what a lot of us are thinking in situations like that but biting our tongues on. Things we're not supposed to say, lest we be labelled misogynist, but which in reality is telling of feeling encroached on, or belittled. I think Cordy crossed his boundaries, and that he was trying to establish them. So I could relate a lot to him there upon re-watching, but I cringed the first time I watched it years ago, because I hadn't yet understood those kinda things back then. Or maybe that's just me realizing I have similar kinda issues as Gunn: letting down my guard. So it may be a stereotype, but perhaps one worth exploring?
This is an episode that feels like the A & B plots were written by different people.
Really enjoyed this review. The line between authors intention and possible interpretation is an slippery slide and I like that you consider it in your reviews.
I stopped watching Angel on season 4. Couldn't handle the whole Connor thing, specially seeing Cordy as a shell of what she used to be. Always my favorite character.
I also haven't been able to forgive Angel for (SPOILER!)
trying to kill Wes after the whole baby Connor thing. I understand Angel's rage, but it felt so unfair that everyone turned on Wesley after he tried to save the baby. I can't wait to hear your take on that.
However, your videos are reminding me of what made me like Angel in the beginning: Despite this being "his show", he's not supposed to be likable, but rather relatable. He has quirks and little details that make him likable, but not better than his teammates.
I'll give Angel another chance...I'll remind myself that I'm not seeing a journey for redemption where he corrects his old mistakes without making new ones, but rather...tries his best to clean up a previous mess without making a bigger one in the process.
Season 5 is worth it, Cordy does get a redemption episode, Spike's fun (as usual), there's some fun episodes. But beware, there's heartbreak too, I'll let you find out, if you watch Season 5 that is.
@@PunkRJH90 Thanks! I will, I just fear that Cordy episode will hurt too much.
Honestly Angel just became really depressing to watch after season 2. It's one of the main reasons I prefer Buffy despite Angel having arguably better storylines
Awesome as always ... I truly do enjoy being shown things from a perspective beyond face value.
My friends might be surprised to hear that if we have ever disagreed on politics, but I would never let a political disagreement come between my friends and I, I am not so petty as that.
Interesting points about separation vs unity in this and "Are You Now or Have You Ever Been". But I think it's a little simplistic to say that the unity approach in AYNoHYEB is entirely the better one. Judy and Gunn do work as doubles for Angel in their own ways, but their experiences are still shaped by race in a way that Angel's isn't. I agree that relying on this stock-character stereotyping nonsense isn't the way to go about indicating that separation and definitely does a disservice to Gunn's character. But the unity approach of relating every struggle to Angel also leads to problem. Universalizing Judy's experience and the issue of racial "passing" to apply to vampirism (which is not a real thing) and a white character strikes me as rather appropriative. That's not to say that there aren't good things in that episode or in the idea of shared suffering. I just think it's a bit more complex than this approach good, that approach bad. It would have been interesting to have seen an episode that captured both unities of suffering and realities of social isolation without stereotyping.
tldr: I think there's a story to be had in the social (race, class) isolation aspect of Gunn's character, but they effed up the execution here.
Appropriation gets a bad wrap. There is no better way to understand the plight of others than to walk a mile, metaphorically speaking, in their shoes, and appropriation accomplishes that.
@@dipperjc I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you on that one. Empathy accomplishes that. Appropriation uses the plight of others for one's own purposes. What works about "Are You Now or Have You Ever Been" is its empathy.
@@annatalksaboutstuff9476 I can concede that empathy is another way to accomplish the goal of helping people understand the plight of others. Perhaps even a "better" way. It's pretty obvious, however, that empathy is a skill that varies from one person to the next, and I still would suggest that appropriation is a good alternative to convey a point to those who lack sufficient empathy to get it on their own.
On a separate note, though, is appropriation always "bad"? If I take a holocaust story, modify it with a sci-fi feel, and spice it up just to sell tickets and make money, am I not also drawing attention to the horrors of attempted genocide?
@@dipperjc I see what you're saying. And there are absolutely uses to and insights to be gained from framing things as allegory. (I say allegory instead of appropriation because I think a well-made allegory doesn't need to be appropriative, and also appropriation can exist in a work to varying degrees.) And, yeah, unsurprisingly, as a Buffy and Angel fan, fantasy and sci-fi allegory appeals to me, for sure. But I have to wonder at what point is that not enough? Like Angel (the show) can talk about race through allegory, but as we can see in this episode when it gets to specifics that kind of breaks down. So if a show can only talk about race in general, abstract terms, how impactful or truly engaging with the issue can it be (no matter how good its intentions)?
I think we're sort of saying similar things. I guess I'm just trying to say that if allegory is what gets someone into starting to understand a complex issue, great! but that shouldn't be the end of the conversation.
@@annatalksaboutstuff9476 To be fair Ian said that Are you Now or Have you Ever Been approached the issue in the exact opposite manner. He didn't say one approach was better than the other though he did go into the nuts and bolts of the problems with the separation approach.
The main thing I remember about this episode is that you shouldn’t pull glass/sharp objects out of you or you’ll bleed out quicker. Life lessons from Cordelia.
It's funny when Wesley and Spike use swears/insults that are far less offensive in the US than they are in the UK.
Please give us examples, and what they mean. Most of the insults Spike uses are either completely inoffensive to Americans, or they’re terms we’re not familiar with (like “berk”).
He asks Buffy: “Are you off your berk?”
In the context he asked it, I inferred it meant “crazy” (but not literally crazy).
@@beachgirl4583 for example spike often uses a bunch of english insults that mean gay, like he uses poof at least twice in the series. That isn't really a swear word or anything but wanker is pretty rude. No way that would be on an equivalent uk show
name name,
What does wanker mean, in Britain? Here, it refers to... erm... beating off, but it’s often meant as “idiot.”
Spike used “git” a lot: “stupid git” which sounds redundant. Doesn’t git mean stupid?
What does “berk” mean?
I don’t remember him using “fag,” though he smokes. I suppose that would have offended Americans who don’t know it means “cigarette.”
@@beachgirl4583 ponce
Love how Darla and Angel are Moon-bathing.
When are we going to address the fact that Darla literally rapes Angel, out main character, for episodes on end???
The following episode, 'Untouched.'
Passion of the Nerd nice nice nice you could totally do a really interesting reflection of Bethany’s sexual trauma with Angel’s ongoing trauma. can’t wait, always look forward to your guides.
@@mo-xi9it that episode is so messed up, but I look forward to the review.
The "binging, chewy, getting to the meat" watching of this episode is a hard way to watch this one. Not because the episode is bad, but because I don't see a lot of said meat when casually watching. But when I "rewatch while taking notes" I get to it easier. The problem with that is that I have never tried to do that with this episode. I like the fact that Gunn and Cordelia are getting to know each other, but never really thought much past that. Like always you have made me see more than that.
David Nabbit was a character I was confused on why they tried making him a part of the group. They should of kept him in just his single guest episode.
The Divac storyline confused me for years or perhaps I was just bored by it. Still don't know which sometimes.
The comfort references is something I never put together. Perhaps its because I never really thought much about that word when Angel used it in _Amends._
I was always confused as to why Angel never felt guilt or why Darla never made him feel guilty for him staking her in these dreams. Am I just forgetting that she did that?
Love the Jane Austen reference.
Cordelia complaining about ruined clothes but having no problem with being able to jump in when the need arises is why she is better here than with The Scoobies as the Scoobies don't see her that way. They still see her as S1 Cordy.
I think Gunn being treated by the main cast the way he is in this episode compared to Judy in the last has more to do with the lack of Angel who wouldn't treat Gunn that way. I is the point of the story line to have Cordelia grow a little tiny bit more comfortable in the world she didn't know much about before. Learning what perceptions they have are correct and not correct is a part of the point to them being together without Angel being there. Cordelia "teaching independence" to Gunn isn't so much a bad moment so much as them realizing they have both made progress in learning about each other's and correcting their misconceptions.
I think a part of the problem is that themes always have a good point, but tropes about race sexuality and gender can change with the times. Its why Xander and Gunn, for instance, have not aged as well as a lot of other characters, but themes are always well written throughout the generations.
Seriously good stuff. I keep telling my friends about the amount of insight and heart you put into your breakdowns. As always I’m looking forward to your next installment, thanks again!
1:25 there are FOUR lights!
Lorne reminds me so much of Lucifer from the show Lucifer.
a show about lorne would have basically been porn without the cleanup. R.I.P Andy.
"Would it have been too much to ask for a little Boreanaz butt? Not like we haven't sEen it" Haha, yees! love it!
Great review, Ian, thank you!!
And despite of the way too white writers room I enjoy Cordy and Gunn's interactions in this episode
"Whatever the opposite of insomnia is" - Err... Narcolepsy?
not exactly. that's falling asleep not staying asleep. it'd be something like encephalitis lethargica but obviously he doesn't have that...
As always a fantastic guide, you really do help me see elements of the shows so much clearer, or make me think about it in a different way! 😊 thank you
Bravo! Another insightful analysis. Thank you.
I have the feeling that I didn't get most of the points you were trying to make in this guide. Too bad, because they seem to be interesting ( your points usually are to me). I'll try to put back in my mind the silences between sentences and ideas to make some sense of your work at a later time. As you said, I might enjoy it more on a second viewing, when I'll understand all the parts that are still ambiguous for me.
I’m beginning to suspect that Ian is one of those guys who is like “I’m straight...*however*...” lol
I dont see your point
God I fucking love Cordy😊
Well done on this one
"Vlade Divac"😂
totally went over my head
This episode is just shy of 20 years old. I am white and not only work with a lot of black people at my job but also interact with many minorities all day, every day even. I even had a black girlfriend for over a year and I've gotta say, they bring up the issue of race and class way more than you apparently think they do. I can't go through a single day without hearing "white people do this" and black people do this" from many of them. For better or worse, it seems to be ingrained in their way of thinking. I'm not saying it's right but I am saying that if you think it's not a thing anymore in 2019 because of "woke culture", you're very VERY mistaken. Perhaps the ideology itself is an outdated concept but it's still prevalent in the black community. Just because societal perceptions change over time doesn't mean the mentality of every individual effected by past ways of thinking and being change instantaneously with it. People are people. People are flawed. People have to learn their own lessons and find their own way in life and in that respect, I think Gunn's journey as well as Corey and Wes' are more or less authentic to their characters at the time and deserve less critique and more understanding. It's through UNDERSTANDING that people learn to relate more, not through being told or preached to that their views are "wrong."
I think I'll be grateful the black people I work with are from Africa and never do that sort of thing. We all just do our work and occasionally make jokes to keep things from becoming monotonous. The issue of race never even comes up.
I mean American black people do get systemically fucked over in a lot of ways, so it’s no wonder if they bring up race and class often. It’s “ingrained in their way of thinking” because they live those issues - you don’t.
Honestly ur videos make my day like so much better 😁
It'd be funny if Nabbit tried to become an alchemist.
@Passion of the Nerd would you ever review the comics?
Joss and Dark Horse or IDW should've brought that character back. He could've been a good financer for a reformed Angel Investigations
Aaaaaah. Finally got my PotN fix. But wait... Oh shit! It's gonna be another couple of weeks before we get a new video. Well, there went my fix. Hope I enjoyed it. (I did!)
Andy Hallett was a treasure to this world. However he did one thing that for the world. Hi reminded everyone you need to take care of your teeth or bad things can I happen to you.
Did you really say vlade divac 😂😍😂
...maybe.
What I remembered about this episode was nerdy guy doing his genius brain thing, Dreamla, and the pink helmet. I'd forgotten about Gunn and Cordy in this one.
i'm looking forward to sleep tight, one of the most powerful episodes they ever produced
Poor Wesley.... );
I hadn't picked up on the Pride & Prejudice element of the title. But with this as with Sense and Sensitivity, I'm left wondering, did anyone actually bother to read the book? It's a thing I find with Angel, that they will often borrow from something deep and complex to promise depths they aren't prepared to explore. Yet in other moments they create true depth out of very little. It's part of the weird puzzle that is this series.
Usually, with Buffy, I do get the sense that they have actually read the thing. Here I'm not sure they've even read the Coles Notes, maybe the blurb on the back of the book. And we're talking about one of the giants of literature here, and a much-beloved story. To borrow our title from that you have to go a bit deeper than guy with pride, girl with prejudice. I expect better from these writers. Not all writers, these ones. That's what happens when you set a high standard.
I enjoy this episode David and Julie reunited after Buffy 1st season in E7 when his well Angelus’s ex mate (tried to kill his one true lover) have great chemistry when Darla appears in angel’s dreams (sleeping late!😂) she is now more Selina Kyle catwoman❤️and cause harmony is the Harley Quinn now😂 but funniest part Angel waking up choking Wesley making his voice squishing and not breathing 😂also the pink women’s helmet embarrassing😂🤣
I have no interest in the show yet I just listened to you speak about it for half an hour and I enjoyed it
I never thought they did too bad with the gang stuff from what I've always assumed was an all white writing staff who have no background in it.
Funnily enough first time I saw this episode I also didn't care for it but I recently re-watched it for the first time in years and found it too be quite fun.
14:11 People are a lot like this today: attributing their weaknesses or overcompensations to sexuality, race, gender, and class. I think Joss deals with that as a side issue in season 5 after some of Gunn's intellectual insecurity is proven to have had no basis, but people often hide what they COULD change behind things that cannot be changed
6:00 I think that trope is called Arbitrary Skepticism when a character lives in a world where strange or outright supernatural things exist and accepts that some exist but not others.
Why is this in my favorites. I've never seen this video before.
Love becomes your master and you just debate with it. Eventually through practice you become a master debater.
Justice for david nabbit! I loved him. Also cordy and gunn shoulda been a thing not fred
4:52 Julie Benz would later play someone who was held like that by another character in Dexter and it didn't end so well.
Ohhhh sneaky sneaky
This episode is also kind of disappointing after the first two being so amazing.
Buffy was in high school and Angel was what........ 200 years old.
Lines like "punched Riley in the everything" 9:40 are why I'll never be a great RUclipsr. I'm just not that clever.
This is one of the episodes I usually skip because it is so cringe worthy with how Gunn speaks and just the overly dramatic way they try to show the dark side of the streets and being a gangster. The guide did allow me to find pieces of the episode I truly do love especially Angel and the pink helmet but I agree that J.August made this episode as good as it is. I just wish the writing had been better and less dated at times.
A top 10 video should be the top ten episodes that changed after doing a guide. The list could be endless... haha
That's an interesting idea.
Joss shows many things pretty right, but race is definitely one of those things!
WB shows in the 90's did not handle the issue of race well at all. The episode "Are you now, or have you ever?" was an example of a broken clock still being right twice a day. This episode cements Gunn's starting point in concrete. *Spoilers* but the unfortunate issue is that his ending point in season five is a full blown uncle tom stereotype and in the final episode Cordelia's vision from this episode becomes a reality.
that last point was epic
I think part of why Judy and Gunn are treated in opposite ways regarding race in these two episodes is that Judy was a mixed Black woman entering into a white space, while in this episode Gunn is a Black man existing within a Black space and team Angel, specifically Cordy, is entering that space, but only long enough to help their Black friend. You can't exactly say "it's just blood" about race when the accompanying social, cultural and economic differences are on display--not in a fully accurate diisplay, but an attempt is made. The writers dont actually know what real-life Gunn's world is like, and writing that part seems much harder for them than writing an individual Black character, even one who is dealing with uniquely Black experiences. This of course comes up again in future episodes, especially in Thin Dead Line, which I find fascinating because of all the amazing parts mixed in with all the stupid ones
I don’t see the problem with the issue of masculinity in this episode. The exploration of masculinity is a constant theme of Angel. It may not be the specific focus of an episode (yet), but we’ve already had several male characters who perform along a spectrum of masculinity: Doyle, Angel, Wesley, Lindsey, David Nabbit, Lorne, and Charles Gunn. Where does Darla fit in with this? Well, she has power over Angel and is diminishing his effectiveness as a leader and champion. In fact, she reminds me quite a bit of Spike in S6.
I appreciate that AtS is trying to address issues of class and race, even if the execution is clunky and stereotypical. The problem is that the writers room is white, and the stereotypes and dialogue employed are embarrassing. However, it would be wrong to act as if there would not be any clashing between Cordelia and Wesley and Gunn. Cordelia and Wesley could not more full of white privilege if they tried. They have no idea of what it is like to be Gunn, and if the writers pretended otherwise, then they would be writing the color-blind or post-racial nonsense that some shows do today in 2019.
“By instead drawing a line between two worlds, the writers have been emphasizing separation, inadvertently codifying one side as 'normal,' and the other as strange and unknowable, and putting Gunn in the awkward position of figuring out how to move between them.” Well, yes. Welcome to what it is like for a nonwhite person navigating white spaces. Gunn’s identity is further complicated by his socioeconomic class and education compared to Wesley, Cordelia, and Angel. I think it’s unfair to compare the brilliant OYNOYEB to this. Angel and Judy were able to connect via their mutual isolation and otherness, but you can’t achieve that resolution for Gunn and our white characters in one episode, nor do I think that would be culturally respectful or interesting writing.
I agree that it’s not a great look to have a white girl save Gunn, but that’s what happens when all of your other characters are white. So again, we return to the need for inclusivity, both behind and in front of the camera.
Great comment. And I don't disagree with anything you said here, really. The fact that you might think I do leads me to believe the essay is pretty muddled. Which...really...was the only thesis I was presenting about this one: Things got muddled.
It's not necessarily a thesis that's going to set the world on fire but...it's mine.
--- "Well, yes. Welcome to what it is like for a nonwhite person navigating white spaces." Right. Just setting up some Season 5 conversations there was all..
@@PassionoftheNerd I hope my comment did not sound hostile or negative. Reading it back, it does seem a bit stern. I love your videos, and I did not comment on the many great points you made. I caught the S5 reference, and it is a shame that it took them so long to fully explore that, especially given that they had been hinting towards that for several seasons (and blatantly addressed it in S4 "Players"). Joss admitted in his audio commentary for "Conviction": "We didn't often know what to do with J.'s character. He had a real sense of feeling out of place, so I wanted to show something from J. that people hadn't seen. Plus he looks really good in a suit." Which makes me just...smh.
Narcolspys sideaffects are insomnia agresstive outbursts, bouts sleepy semi comas
I love Cordy in this episode
I think we need a Sisyphus mug. Can it be black with any other color logo, though? Tea stains white mugs. I promise I’ll buy one.
I can't believe this channel still hasn't discussed Fred.
What does "masculine" or "feminine" mean in this context? Because if we're not just talking about stereotypes applied to men and women based on their sex, what are we talking about?
I don't know about you but for a guy who is more a Buffy fan than Angel fan (love both BTW), putting back to back eps 1-3 of S5/S2 respectively IMO Angel first 3 eps destroy Buffy first 3 eps (so far.....). Judgement is well meh but so is BvsD. And I really enjoy Have you now... (duh) and this one even though is not that popular
Narcolepsy is perhaps as close as you can get to the opposite of insomnia.
I choose to see it not as a white girl saving a black man but as the ptb recognizing gunn as vital to the mission and trying to help him before he self destructs from guilt, could it have been a simple convo with angel talking about guilt yes, but angel always does that with anyone whose got a guilty conscience. And yes the writing couldve been better for the villains but I like gunn pointing out class and race, his story arc was interesting as well. the writers didnt have to do this, focus on humans in LA completely separate from the angel sphere, but it makes angel better they did.
Makes me wonder when Cordelia learned first aid.
I take it between seasons 1 and 2 that's when she started taking the mission more seriously. It's been shown in both shows watchers have vast knowledge show Wes probably taught her the basics atleast.
Possibly when she was a cheerleader? Basic first aid is part of cheerleader knowledge.
She had to have some experience with the Scoobies, too. She sustained several injuries herself on BtVS.
She also might have learned it in school; she was very studious after all.
She lived in Sunnydale on top of a Hellmouth where something was always trying to kill them. I'd be more surprised if she hadn't learned at least basic first aid. And moreso after she fell through the floor and got impaled that one time.