When your character is supposed to be killed off in like Season 2 but you do such a good job at it that you end up staying on the rest of the show and spend the rest of your life breaking it to your fellow Americans that you're not actually English
funny is that Joss told off Marsters in the beginning, told him not to get a big head and think he's gonna take over the show with his character... in the end he did LOL
@@orpheusbreeze Yes when james asked Joss to not do the Bathroom scene Joss demanded the scene to be filmed. With Charisma her recent reveal of what he was like on set the scene is even more creepy.
Spike was an INCREDIBLE character - not just one of the best in Buffy, but in just about any story, ever. So much depth, so many shades of black, white and grey. Fantastically written, and fantastically played by James Marsters.
I said, Spike meets Dottie from Agent Carter and screams not another bloody Underwood! Next thing I know my names in Witchblade, Did I tell you that one?
I think the episode in which Spike is tortured by Glory to reveal the Key's identity is also a turning point. He does something very selfless that would've gone unnoticed if Buffy hadn't tricked him into revealing it. He endures hours of torture but it doesn't matter to him because physical pain is nothing compared to the pain of seeing Buffy heartbroken if her sister was to be killed.
It's not as big a motivation, but I think him punching Tara deserves more attention too. It was technically violent but completely selfless. He gained nothing from it but protected her in more ways than one.
I definitely agree. That torture scene is one of the moments I personally cite most often when arguing in favor of Spike - Buffy had already told him there was no chance, that she would never be with him. Also, Joyce was gone, the Scoobies didn't want him around, and nearly every other demon we ever meet throughout the series would most likely have seen Glory's advantages over the good guys and chosen to side with her for survival. Most importantly, no one was watching. Soulless Spike was 100% prepared to die alone to protect Dawn and spare the woman he loved - who did not love him back - from terrible pain. Spike's is the absolute greatest redemption story ever told, imho.
I met James at a Comic-Con and he was so humble. I told him his performance made the show for me and he replied “the writing made it for me.” Also, he had crazy soft hands.
Everything Spike did was motivated by love, whether he had a soul or not. Becoming a vampire, moving to Sunnydale for Dru, helping the good guys, getting his soul back, everything. He didn't always get it right, but he always acted out of love.
@@omalleycaboose5937 Yea, Angel(or Angelus) was all about spiting prime, proper and responsibilities. I think one way to mess with Angel might have been to bring up his sister. While it woudn't have made him cry or anything, I think it would have distracted and annoyed him. Definitely ruined his mood for the rest of the day and make you a prime target of his ire. While he was alive he rather enjoyed her worship of him. And after he returned to "life" she was the one who named him Angel. The way he killed her was more like a mercy killing. He certainly could have come up with something far worse for her, to increase the torment of his father, but he didn't. It was almost like he mainly just didn't want her to see how he changed for even worse and rid himself of the responsibility of her well being as quickly as possible.
@@ghouling1111 i wouldn't say "everything" either. But it does definitely seem to be the core of his charector and the themes theu were exploring with him
Spike had a soft spot for the ladies. When Tara was being called a demon by her family Spike said he didn't care but immediately proved them wrong even if it meant pain to him. When Buffy mom died, he went to the funeral and honestly showed his respects. When the gang found out Spike was in love with buffy and everyone tried to mock him, he just mocked them back except for Dawn which he just quietly got away from.
James once said that his Character Spike, always had a soul. He was always William, the soppy, sensitive, poet, he tried to hide, behind Spike, his Punk ultra ego. "Find the love James..." He said to himself, after Whedon told him (He was a souless creature.) So James said F** that, & he tried to find the love, cause he didn't want to be killed right away. Spike wasn't written to last. Till James made him unique to Angel, & played Spike, with a sensitivity, & soul. He made Cast & Crew feel for him, eventually Joss came round as well, & saw the Punk Vampyre from Brittan as a fun addition to the regular Cast leads, & situations had changed, to incorporate Spike more then before. But only due to James dedication to Spike. Even though he would become terrified at every script, the writers would come up with. Spike lives on in all our hearts, thanks to James, seeing thru Spike's recreated journey arc. Everyone, felt the void when the character was missing from the show. & Yeah, they Clock work Oranged Spike, in order to make him able to fit in with Buffy & the Scoobies.🤦🏼♂️ But his character arc was not only the most memorable but beloved by James willingness to go there, & do as Joss & the writers wanted of him. Thank you James for being the best Spike for it. 🧑🏼⚔️💗🤟🏼 ⚔️💗🤛🏼🔥He found the Love, & saved Spike. 🤟🏼💗
To me there’s also Spike’s relationship with Buffy’s family. Dawn was like a little sister to him, being willing to help her out and look after her at several points. And then there’s his friendship with Joyce, which was adorable at times. From them discussing his relationship issues with Dru over hot coca, to chatting about their favorite soap operas, even to his reaction to her death, bringing flowers to the house intending to leave them anonymously.
I love the action at 16:20, where Spike reaches for Buffy but when she turns her head away he immediately pulls away, respecting her wish not to be touched. That, coupled with him saying "when I say I love you, it's not because I want you, or because I can't have you, it has nothing to do with me" is the peak of his development, for me. He's respecting her boundaries, and he has developed a selfless love. It's not about doing things to "get the girl," or "to be loved and accepted," he just genuinely wants her to be happy and to feel believed in at a point where she feels no one does.
James Marster's is such an underrated actor. Even when spike was "evil" you couldn't help but love him... James Marster's is an amazing actor who deserves a lot more credit... I mean who else could pull off a British accent for 7 years and not have the entire world realize he's from California?!
@@Rose-cj7wi I was born and grew up in Essex, but so close to the London border my Secondary School had an East London postcode (as did West Essex Golf Club, to which my dad belonged). My dad was from Dagenham, my mum from Camden Town and Wood Green. I had no idea what Spike's accent was supposed to be until I saw James Marsters talking about it in a magazine interview. He is a great character--one of my favourites--well portrayed, but that accent is just... unclear, shall we say?
Angel was a less interesting character and didn't try to redeem himself until his soul was forced back into his body. The one who deserves his life back is the one who fought for his humanity since the beginning. Spike was the chosen one, not Angel.
I almost love Spike and Angel equally, and appreciate the fact they're different takes on getting their soul. Personally, I love the fact that it took many many years for Angel to actually become a good being after getting his soul.
spike was such an incredible character. I always preferred him to angel because his character ac was so fascinating and he did so much within himself. Angel was only ever good when "cursed" and forced to be. a lot of the scenes with spike were the ones that really moved me. that scene in the church when buffy learns he got his soul back, that still makes me cry. Even when buffy dies after sacrificing herself to stop glory, it's not that she's dead that makes me cry, it's spike's reaction to her death that really gets me. and that scene in the last season where he gives her that pep talk is everything. that's when you can really see them truly connecting for the first time. and in the season finale, oh my god, that moment he burns up always tears me to pieces. Spike was easily my favourite character, and could always move me the most, because his character arc is so impressive and so genuinely amazing. a bad guy who turns good-ish, and then makes a huge mistake, but learns from that mistake and comes back to be the BEST guy who saves the world? it's insanely inspiring, and i think more than anything, it teaches us that even when we mess up BIG, it's still possible to redeem ourselves. that's the real message, and that's huge.
When the show first ran, I never got Angel. (Hell, I still don't) Spike? Totally! But then again I liked Luke Skywalker more than Han Solo, and Peter Scolari (however that's properly spelled) more than Tom Hanks on Bosom Buddies. I think I just don't like the obvious guy, the one we're supposed to swoon all over. And I'm a million years old! :0)
I kind of appreciate both to an equal degree. They may both have souls, but their journeys are intended to be entirely different. Liam was not a good person to begin with, and becoming Angellus and through Darla's ways, he became all the more worse than even a typical vampire. Then he got a soul, and it wasn't even a simple journey of redemption. He battled with wondering who he should be, and still continued to bad, even knowing the wrong of it all. Along the way, he became more and more a better person, but even still as Angel, he could be very grey. Spike is awesome as a character, and I think if anything I prefer James Marsters charisma with Spike's wit, but I think Angel's journey is overall the more interesting one
Agreed. I was only disappointed that once his character joined Angel, there wasn't a lot more talk about him and Buffy. They'd built their relationship up to be so epic. When he finds himself alive again, I really wanted him to go to her. I understand why he didn't, but man, they were magic together--way more than she ever was with Angel.
The grace of the angel character is destiny, destiny made him become a huge monster and destiny gave him a soul, destiny gave him his love, destiny sent him to hell and destiny brought him back . Angel is duality, good and evil, spike is contradiction, demon but human, badass but with a heart. Spike saved season 5 even though he didn't save it for good.
Spike was always the most fascinating character to me by a mile. Look at any other character, and their journey and transformation still doesn't match his. His is incredible. He was always a slightly different kind of vampire, he has always been motivated by love, from Cecily to Dru to Buffy. But his arc shows that you can fall in the worst ways and still find redemption. I will never forget that Spike was the only vampire to ever seek out a soul, Angel never did. Angel was forced to be good, Spike worked to be good. There is a massive difference. And in the final episodes, Spike was the only one to truly believe in Buffy. Her own friends, sister and watcher turned away from her, but Spike was the only one to remain. He saved the world twice, once by empowering Buffy when she thought all hope was lost, and again by dying for it himself. I like to think Buffy did love Spike, truly. He understood her like nobody else did, and he proved himself to be her confidant, her friend and her protector. That is love.
I agree. Buffy said that she has feelings but it is not love,becouse she couldn't never to trust him. But at 7 season she relies him. It means that she in love. They came all the way together and love each other really
Just a small thing - Angel didn't become good immediately after gaining his soul, he had a long journey from getting his soul back to becoming good, and definitely worked for it. There were 100 years between his ensoulment and Buffy season 1, during which he... yeah practically did nothing good and literally just brooded for the whole time which doesn't sound that good to be honest... But both of them had a journey to becoming good. Just one was before the soul, and one was after (plus it's important to note that Spike had role models to emulate, while souled Angel literally only had the influence of Darla and Dru - it's not so simple to say that one (souled) self is better than the other). But yeah, good point.
I always felt Spike wasn't a normal vampire, even after he was sired he kept strong feelings of love toward his mother (when vampires normally kill their families) and sired her because of that, her mother on the other hand once sired was was sadistic and hateful towards him. So I bet Spike is not really what we can call an example of what vampire in the setting can do, is like part of his soul remain or some other reason when he was sired which make him always especial.
When vampires turn in Buffy, they take traits and memories of their prior selves. Spike's mother seemed like she really wasn't all that happy as she put off when she was a human. The Judge could hurt anyone with humanity and was able to kill the vampire who helped Spike & Dru put him together. He said he was still tied to humanity due to his love of books. He never touched Dru or Spike but said they held onto their jealousy and affection which is also human. He wasn't able to burn soul-less Angel oddly enough. Everyone loves Buffy and Angel together but if you really look at it - was Angel a good human? He was a drunk who slept around and only had humanity when he was cursed to feel bad for what he had done. I feel like that's why he was so good at being bad when he was bad. Spike however, showed humanity even before turning.
There's actually a cool theory how there is something wrong w/ Spikes entire Sire line. Spike and Dru, Angel and Darla, Darla and the Master. They had very human like emotional attachments to each other. Soulless, yet cared for one another.
Becoming a vampire is like getting drunk, doesn't actually change you as much expose you. Angel was a worthless POS as a human so the worst vampire ever. Spike was a good person, and therefore a "good" vampire.
@@MultiRekrap i mean if vamps had no attachments to each other they'd never trust others enough to nest together. it is beneficial to have at least a tiniest degree of trust (although it can also be respect or fear) because that means you always have a place to crash at and a neck to drink from. and connecting with sires/those who you sired is probably easier because you're *already* connected by blood. vampires are basically pack animals but with aggression up to 11
When loosing their soul and becoming a vampire in the Buffyverse, several things in their character change: * They get stuck in their final moment. The feelings, motivations and themes are engraved into them, their are unable to change, to develop as a person * They loose any sense of moral, of empathetic connection. They still can guess how someone is feeling if they want, they just stop caring * They stop being social animals and get a predatory minset. They cannot feel lonely or rejected Spike has a special potential because of his strong emotional state in which he is transformed. Even as a vampire, he is still guided by love, care for others (drusilla and his mother) and passion. This gives him motivation to act in ways other vampires would never have a reason to act, and attaches him to the world. In his affection for and maddening possession about Buffy, all these things come together, and his passion is directed toward changing into the man she could love.
Angelus didn't care about anything. Even about Darla. He once babbled to a hunter where Darla's location was. He was sadistic and evil,but just like a vamp should be actually,well - souless creature after all.
The only reason Spike turned evil and said fuck the World was because when he was human the world turned it’s back on him. Angel knew this and used it. Considering the bloodline they have that’s why Spike became the second worst vampire ever recorded.
Spike telling Andrew he'd bite him if he ever told anyone what he just said isn't really a negative comment. It's like if you told someone a secret and followed it up with "tell anyone and I'll kill you" that doesn't mean you would actually kill them, it's basically asking them not to tell anyone else but doing so in a way that shows how seriously you don't want others to find out.
I see your point, but you could just say "let's keep this just between us" secrets can be important, but threatening someone into keeping it, even if they don't intend on physically endangering the other person, is still a negative comment. A threat is a threat, which is toxic and abusive behaviour.
Spike will always be one of my favorite characters from Buffy, he goes through a great deal of changes and develops very well. Unlike angel, Spike actually fought for Redemption
@@omalleycaboose5937 You take both spike and angel right now and take their souls, angel tries to kill everyone including Buffy and destroy the world. Spike would try and stop angel and then do whatever it took to get his soul back. Spike is clearly the better man of the 2, he wants to be good with and without a soul.
What I feel like are underrappreciated moments that show his evolution are the ones where Spike listens. Just like he says, he's not a thinker or a rational person, he's a person acting with his heart, and that's always been the case, even when he was a human. He was a romantic, full of passion type of guy and being a vampire only highlighted that, while also twisting his version of love - if we consider his relationship with Drusilla. But Buffy finds comfort in moments of silence and "silent sharing" with Spike. Yknow, one of the first turning points stated in this video is a moment where Spike "gets it" without Buffy having to say anything. Then there are other moments like when Buffy shares with him first that she was dead in Heaven, peaceful and happy. This is the most intimate thing she's ever told anyone at this point, and she told it to him. These are moments that also provoked Spike's evolution, because they're moments where Buffy lets him in. They're the moments where she truly connects with him and allows him to feel like he's someone worthy of listening to her and comforting her in some ways. Some people tend to forget, that love and trust build themselves on a ground of confidence and intimacy, and I feel like where sometimes Angel wasn't recepient of this intimacy coming from Buffy, neither Giles or her friends, Spike always did the job on that part. Also shallow me really loves the fact that Spike is brought back to life in Angel, even tho it serves to destroy his relationship to Buffy (just like it did with Buffy and Angel) or even Buffy's character to begin with.
Exactly. I'd include the experimental sex they have with that too- how she let him in, even in a self destructive Plutonian kind of way. I mean in the comics she does choose him. And then they part and stay friends. I like that Angel was a vehicle for her relationship with Spike. The one with Spike being more profound and personally evolving. Angel just isn't worthy and Buffy has a hard time accepting her monster side so she keeps rejecting it as a physical person, which is Spike
James had already asked for the scene to be cut, but Joss demanded it to stay in. Now that Charisma has revealed what Joss was like on set the scene is extra heavy.
@@jody024 From what I understand James liked the idea that Spike is falling in love with Buffy, however he thought it shouldn't be reciprocated in any way, but Joss Wheadon (I think) insisted on the characters developing a romance. Then the writers came up with the bathroom scene, which was extremely difficult to film. He was trying to convince the writers not to do it, but...
It’s not a surprise Spike is the most loved character in Buffy! It’s already enough he was a great villian BUT it went further than that. His journey from villian, to seeking redemption, to hero. The Third slayer he planned to kill is what ended up saving him from the continue loop of his vampire life due to his depressing past! Spikes character is so good it’s almost OP because he’s like enjoyable as a villian and a hero. To me, it’s hard to pull off characters like that. Spike was originally intended to be on for like 3 eps but there’s great reason why he was loved so quickly. He even made the Angel spinoff more interesting. And I loved how the 3rd slayer on his life he intended to kill, ended up changing his life for the better! Ugh! Such a GREAT story. Of course some credit goes to Joss and some writers, but some credit goes to the fans too. If Spikes debut was never popular, he would’ve only been around for like 3 eps
@@DanY-gx2dv uhhh in case you hadn't noticed, "cookie dough" meant that she didn't know, not that she loved Angel And in the same scene she tells Angel that Spike has a special place in her heart
She also took on his way of talking a little bit in Showtime. She says "Here endeth the lesson" which is what Spike said to her when telling her the stories of killing his 2 Slayers.
I loved that Spike was there for her when nobody else was. Once Joyce and Giles and Angel and Riley were all gone and she needed help with Dawn, she needed help coping with being brought back from the dead, and just for general emotional support.
Spike is by far the most important and well developed of all the characters. And he's bloody gorgeous! He suffered by far the most for Buffy et al than any of her friends. I love him, and I actually cried when he died.. good to see him back in Angel later! Viva Spike!
when he was without a soul she had feelings for him but it was not love. It was passion sympathy and attraction. When he returned his soul, she saw his changes and striving to become a better man. She started to trust and to rely on him. During this time she fell in love with him.
I'd argue that there were two turning points prior to Becoming. 1. His injury 2. The return of Angelus This marking the beginning of protracted period of humiliation, thus leading to his ultimate redemption.
This is the first time I've watched the scene where Spike tries to force himself on Buffy since that episode originally aired. I forgot how brutal it was. Great acting by Sarah and James. That must have been difficult to shoot.
The scene never rang true to me. Spike had never tried to force himself on Buffy before that. Why would he now? If he had tried to kiss her and Buffy hit him, fine. But knocking her to the floor. It didn’t make sense.
@@ndrose It does kinda. Their physical relationship up until Buffy dumped him had always begun with an element of violence. Ended with sweet word, but began by destroying the furniture. Add in the “go away come here” dynamic and the one-upsmanship, and what Spike does here seems more like an overture than an attack (to me, anyway), the first move in an old game Buffy inexplicably doesn’t want to play anymore.
Just saying, he does stop himself. After she pushes him away,you can see it dawns on him how wrong he is and leaves consumed with self hatred over his actions. He could have gone all vamp and forced her.
I'm all for this video cause I always thought to myself, "you can't really tell a difference between Spike with or without a soul, even in season two he bands with buffy because he "wants Dru back and he wants to save the world" and you can start to see some of that loveable charm... Angel on the other hand BIG DIFFERENENCE!
That near rape scene was not only disturbing - it was Joss Whedon punishing Sarah Michelle Gellar for standing up to him. She didn't like these scenes. He wrote them to show her who is the boss of the show. He's a vindictive, power hungry man with clear anger issues which he led out on young actors and writers. As bad as this scene is in the show, on a meta level it becomes even worse.
I've never heard of SMG being that against that scene other than thinking it wasn't necessary but I'd believe it. I have heard several stories from James Marsters (Spike's actor) talking about how deeply uncomfortable he was with filming the scene and how he requested for them to change the script several times. The footage they used was apparently the only take they did because he hated it so much, and to this day he doesn't like talking about it--he also apparently added a clause to his contract between s6 and 7 so that he couldn't be forced to portray sexual assault anymore. James has also told several stories about Whedon screaming at him, pinning him to walls and other stuff because Spike was way more popular than anyone anticipated and Whedon--who was firmly of the opinion that Soulless vamps should be irredeemable monsters--was unhappy Spike had such a massive fanbase. Seeing Red was also meant to punish Spike's fans; Whedon has said outright that people needed to be "reminded" that Spike was evil. Needless to say, it's a horrid reason to put your actors and audience through such disturbing content but he clearly didn't care. That's not even mentioning the whole Jasmine plot on AtS being very very clear punishment towards Charisma Carpenter (Cordelia's actress) for getting pregnant, and Michelle Trachenburg (Dawn's actress) admitting about how he wasn't allowed alone with her--which has troubling to downright nauseating implications.Yeah, Whedon sucks. Whatever talent he has isn't worth his ego and abuse of both his actors and fanbase. Dude shouldn't get work anymore.
@@primrosett I never read her talking about this scene in particular, just statements that she was uncomfortable with the sex scenes in season six in general.
@@primrosett And to add - not only is it disturbing that Whedon was not allowed to be in a room with Trachtenberg when she was a minor but it puts some other things in perspective, especially the Buffy/Angel romance. I don't even mean the age difference between sixteen and 250, we get a similar problem with Buffy and Spike but Spike only fell in love with her and started to pursue her when she was an adult. Angel dated her when she was still a teenager. And Cordelia constantly dated older guys, even openly advocating for it. It was as if the show was endorsing young men having sex with minors. Full disclosure, I'm from Germany. We have different age restrictions regarding what constitutes statutory rape than the US. There is no clear cut-off at 18. Under 14 everything is illegal. Above 14 it's not illegal if the partner is under 18 as well. Above 16 it's not illegal if the partner is above 21. Above 18 everything goes through. The thing is, even under these way more liberal laws, what Angel did would be qualified as rape - he was sired at the age of 26. So essentially, he was a 26 year old who had sexual relations with a 16 year old in "Surprise". And nobody said anything. It was treated as completely normal. The thing is, if Whedon thought it was okay for adult men to have sexual relations with teenaged girls, it would not only explain why he a wrote it that way and why b he behaved in a way towards Michelle Trachtenberg that would it necessary for the other producers to step in and keep her safe.
What Spike says in 'Seeing Red' is very reminiscent of his speech in 'Lover's Walk'. All that time has passed and he still has that unhealthy passion, that twisted interpretation of what love is. That's a side of him that hasn't changed much and that's scary. The realization of that is so real and brutal.
Watching that scene again, it seemed that Spike at first was actually trying to break things off exactly because he didn't like what their relationship made him feel or do. That it wasn't until Buffy started in on him both denying him an escape from the relationship and at the same time denying having any feelings for him, that the whole thing turns ugly. Their whole relationship had been until then a very physical one, twisted and toxic, and Buffy had been the one who set the terms for that. She had been the one up until that moment, who was perfectly fine with verbally abusing him one moment before having sex with him the next, and then going back to abusing him. All because that suited HER needs- but with no care or consideration for his. Does the fact that he is not human justify such behavior? Would not her actions have been judged selfish and immoral by the standards that this analysis used? Didn't she also say plenty of negative things to Spike all those times and in that scene that were meant to be hurtful? So while his actions are bad and inexcusable they don't happen in a vacuum. Buffy's own inexcusable conduct towards Spike was a form of emotional rape, she took advantage of him plain and simple and refused to admit it even to herself, which finally provokes this scene.
@@a.westenholz4032 I agree with this. While awful and never acceptable, his attack did not take place in a vacuum. I see it as his mistaking her resistance for yet another preamble to the "hate sex" they'd aways had - their sexual encounters had always been fueled by Buffy's angry mix of aggressive, abusive dominance - she was often the one initiating, not him, and her resistance to what they were doing, her denial of wanting him or loving him. They had played the "hate you/want you" game so many times, that he thought this was the same, the difference being she meant No this time, and she meant it for real. His attempted rape was, in his mind, not an evil "I want to hurt you" rape but a huge mistake where he thought she was just doing another playing hard to get moment. It doesn't make it right but it's the real dynamic here.
@@BreezeOnTheLake Exactly. This is a case where I think both Buffy and Spike become victims of the game Buffy has been playing with Spike. So what happens is indeed ugly and unfortunate, but I'm not sure if I don't in the end blame Buffy more for the situation occurring, since it was her who set the terms of their relationship and how they usually engaged. It is something that was bound to go wrong at some point. As you say, she was the one with the issues; wanting him but not wanting to admit it, using him for stress relief, and basically jerking him around playing hot and cold.
Since this show is a major part of my teen years and Spike William the Bloody was my favorite character I was hoping your analysis and my adult brain wouldn't ruin my memories of him I'm glad to say you didn't.
Great video! To me, the more difficult question is how much empathy (if any) a soulless vampire can possess. For most of the show, the answer seems to be none, yet there are some exceptions (like Spike's guarding of Dawn) which are never adequately explained. I also loved seeing the detailed charts you made.
Vampires dont have empathy. Some of them have feelings and may even have love for other people. But empathy is not just having feelings. Empathy is being able to care for a complete stranger, being able to put yourself in their situation. Thats also what a conscious is.
@@Deffine I agree that vampires generally don't have any. Empathy is being able to understand and share the feelings of another, not necessarily just a stranger. In Season 5, Spike undergoes torture protecting Dawn because he understands Buffy's feelings for her sister. After Buffy dies in Thr Gift, he spends several months caring for Dawn at personal risk. As far as he knows, there is no possibility of Buffy ever returning or rewarding him for that loyalty, so why does he do it? I have never yet heard a satisfactory explanation that gels with the vampire mythology.
The answer is love. Truly terrible people can have love for other people. Like i said, love is not empathy. Its like people who have love for their family, but hate or have no empathy for people they deem unworthy. Like in roman times it was perfectly normal to love your family while simultaneous having slaves that you mistreat and rape. A serial killer can love his family. A little off topic, but this is also what is wrong with society today. People think having love makes something good. In the future, as generations get more and more degenerate, the liberals will make pedophilia normal and acceptable, all under the umbrella of love. The lobbyism of liberal media have already started.
I believe it has to do with the Basic Instinct of the character Spike was always passionate and very emotional person and as a soulless vampire guarding Dawn could be construed as him guarding a member of his pseudo pack because around that time he was a pseudo member of the Scooby gang by extension.
I'm so happy that someone made a video about this, j always wondered HOW it is that Spike has done so much good with and without a soul, where as Angel is always one or the other.
That scene in Seeing Red has always felt so out of place and out of character to me. Every time I see it I have the same thought "This doesn't make sense".
I don't remember which season it was, maybe season 5, but Willow and Tara talk about Quasimodo from Hunchback of Notre Dame, and the one of them said Quasi couldn't get the girl because he was doing good for the wrong reason...that's when I knew Joss Whedon was never going to let Spike have a happily ever after. I was sad but agreed.
He tells Dawn not to tell Buffy about resurrected their mother but says he's doing it as he's tired of seeing them both get dumped on. It's not a good or right action but is motivated by empathy for them.
I think you are talking about the scene after Spike is beaten by Glory and Buffy pretends to be the Buffy Bot and offers to go tell Glory who the Key is so Glory does not try to hurt him again. He tells her (thinking she is the Bot) "No." and when asked why " He explains that Buffy could not handle the pain of losing Dawn after losing her mom, because she's been through too much. I think the episode is "Intervention."
Spike drove a "1959 Desoto Fireflite" the sign falling down at the end of the last episode is homage to his arrival in Sunnydale in season 2 where he runs over the welcome to Sunnydale sign.
The more I watched the show the more I loved Spike. He was "bad", but I think he always had a good heart underneath. Maybe it had something to do with who he was associating with.🤔 Spike turns out to be the hero of the show!😊 💗
The one thing that makes me incredibly angry is that Buffy and spike never kiss or ANYTHING after he gets his soul back they just CUDDLE and it angers me I wanted them to be endgame 😭 and she didn’t even kiss him when he was dying
I KNOW. UUGGGH! There are a couple of weird scenes with them in the basement before the last fight in Chosen where it was kept kind of open whether or not they kissed... I hated the whole ambiguity with them in the last season. It seemed obvious buffy loves him in many scenes but then nothing happened. I wonder why Joss chose to do it that way. Maybe to not enrage the bangel fans. But it frustrates me a lot lol.
@@susslife8307 agree..I loved their connection and tbh, the way the show kept them from really uniting and he dying just was sucha downer I lost interest in watching...
It was frustrating not to see more than just the holding all night, but Joss left it open to fans as to how they spent their last night in the basement - that short scene where you just see Buffy walk down the stairs, and they both stand there looking at each other. Joss says on the commentary that it's up to the viewer as to whether they just held each other that night, talked all night...or made love - Joss's actual words. I also think it's kind of cool how, that night we saw all the other couples getting into hot and steamy sex like Spike and Buffy used to - but now they are chastely holding each other like you can only do when it's deepest love. That was a nice juxtaposition of where they're at emotionally with each other. They're beyond even great sex and into great love.
From hilarious silly cool sexy badass anti-hero....His character moments later on are so heart warming and heart breaking it brings to tears to the eyes.
Think even without the chip, his compass needle was spinning already, the chip just slowed it down to where it could settle on the "hero" side. Without it, would have just taken longer, and almost certainlly been bloody. A & S( Curiously enough, it was Liam & William, which is actually where "Liam" comes from and also Billy is from, the Billy being Billy Idol who Spike claims, copied HIS look) are the same( as in previous bit with their given names) and polarly different in that both end up with souls but Angel is cursed with it and does not want, save for the penance the ensouled part desires; Spike sought his out and considers it a blessing.
James Marsters, couldn't have cast a better actor to play Spike he made the show far more interesting than Angel did Angel was always so angsty at first I like him & Buffy together. But when Spike & Buffy were put together I'm like "Wow!" now these two when from sparks to volcano eruption too bad Buffy's friends except for Tara & possibly Dawn were against Buffy & Spike being together. Especially Xander who I think was still butt hurt after so many years because Buffy just wasn't that into him no doubt he was jealous of mostly Angel & Spike. Riley IMO had no chemistry with Buffy what so ever I was glad their relationship ended quickly. In the end I think of all the guys Buffy loved Spike the most even though Spike said she didn't love him deep down she really did she loved him more than she did Angel at least Spike tried to redeem himself which appealed more to Buffy. I see Buffy, Spike & Dawn like Ripley, Nute & Hicks.
What an amazing deep dive into “William The Bloody’s” character! This video was great top to bottom. Seriously, the production value is right up there with the information in it. Do you have more breakdowns planned for the future? If so, color me Subbed!
So I have a thought. Angel never really loved Buffy but spike did. Now before you come for me just hear me out. Angel only loved Buffy when he had a soul and as soon as he didn’t he was going to kill her. Spike loved Buffy when he didn’t have a soul, so much so that went and got himself a soul.
a big factor in his shift from fighting with the bad guys to fighting against them was getting the chip implanted in his brain by The Initiative. He still needed to act out his violent nature but couldn't do that to his preferred target but discovered he could still have fun by beating on other demons. That doesn't mean a shift in his moral compass, more a different outlet for his violent behaviour. However, like other people have commented below, Spike/William was always love's bitch, though in his soullessness that became an unhealthy, obsessive type of love as with Dru and then Buffy.
Obviously he was written a particular way, but I wonder what the writers would have to say about spike's obsessive and often abusive version of love. I mean, Dru sired him so it makes sense that he stayed with her. The question is: would he have been sadistic and possessive if it hadn't been for a century with Dru? She was crazy before she was changed and being a soulless vampire only made that worse. She was incredibly damaged and she is the one who fostered Spike's ability to love and be loved. She taught him that possession and torture add abuse were love. It makes sense that he would struggle with showing affection in what we consider an appropriate manner.
There were so, so, soooooooooo many stellar characters in Buffy the Vampire Slayer. But standing alone in a field of stars, we find Spike, one who outshines almost all the others! I find it unfathomable that he was originally meant to be a one-off character. The relationship between Buffy and Spike is so complex that it nearly defies description. They come to know and understand each other on a level so fundamental that it transcends Friendship, and possibly even Love. I remember a very poignant scene during the last season when Giles takes Buffy on a "training exercise" to distract her in order to allow Principal Wood to attempt to kill Spike. When she figures out what's going on, and realizes that Giles has essentially betrayed her, it is the only time in the entire series that she (figuratively **and** literally) turns away from him at the end of the episode, saying "I think you've taught me everything I need to know." Thus showing that even the one character that has been with her from the very beginning and whom she trusts most, messed with Spike at his own peril. And James Marsters just...well...I don't really know how to describe what I want to say here, so I'll just get it out of the way: He's F**KING HOTT as Spike!!!! Even though the accent was (albeit believably) fake, and the hair was bleached, you still cannot deny the rest. That incredible chiseled, square jaw and cheekbones that could cut glass! Those exquisite lips, and...and...and...those EYES!!!! And that BODY! Sleek, and slender, and ripped without being overly big and bulky; broad shoulders and tiny waist with a great ass! Mmf! I don't often admit this "out loud", so to speak, but I've had erotic dreams about Spike on occasion! In summation, the character, the actor himself -- I DEFY anyone to say that they 100% dislike Spike! Even if he isn't your favorite character, you still probably like him at least a little bit.
AAAAHHHHHHHH!!!! The FEELS!!!!!!!! Tears! Literal tears. Brilliant video, reminds me of why I loved the show so much, and is second only to Doctor Who in emotional response! Damn, if James Marsters were ever on Doctor Who and died, I think it would kill me.
@@Pepperoni-pg9oh Damn, I'd forgotten about that! Double damn, how could I have forgotten about one of the hottest make out scenes in TV history? Yeee-haaa, that was some hot stuff. And I don't know how true it is, but I love Barrowman's story of filming that scene. If I got to kiss James Masters, I'd make sure there was at least a half dozen "takes" as well...or more!
Being Soulless means he can only do what he truly wants to do. He did great things because that was his core in the moment. Each incident while soulless is an empty animal with Spikes memories choosing only what it wants to do based on survivability. So, when he falls in love with Buffy while soulless - it means he cannot live without her. He plays nice as long as it gets him closer to what he wants. Which is why he attempts to rape Buffy, he believes sex is on the table because she wants him back, regardless of how shes feeling in the moment. It's also why Spike recovers faster after getting his soul, Spike does not blame himself for what he did as a demon...Angel does and still does. But with Spike he says it all when he beats Robin Wood "Unlike you, I had a mother that loved me back. When I sired her, I unleashed a demon - and it tore into me. But it was the DEMON talking." He does not think people are to blame for acts they do while possessed by a demon. This was well written and well-acted.
I love that he doesn’t ask to be let in Buffy’s home. We were watching S2 recently and Angel asks Willow to let him in. I thought, wait if he is so moral then he should know the risks of letting himself in. Angel would understand the power of gaining entry and he would understand how dangerous he is. I think this shows there is still a bad guy in there making moves. And maybe Angel, or Liam, was not as good a person as Spike, William. That could be part of Angel’s trauma, knowing his nature is more selfish than he would like. Love this show, never get tired of it
that's because soulless spike actually *wanted* to become better and thus not just welcomed the soul but even sought it out, whereas angelus never asked for one and when he got cursed, angel sloooowly started his character growth [but even with a soul he went to darla first and tried to live the angelus life only to discover that it made him feel horrible, so he dipped and just tried to survive (he kinda wanted to die but also couldn't find the guts for it). he only started on his moral growth journey after seeing buffy for the first time and deciding to turn his life around] meanwhile, angelus didn't want to have any of that shit and the first chance he got he went back to killing people. basically, soulless spike at the end of his arc is a monster who wants to be a man, making ensouled spike simply a man. whereas angelus is simply a monster with no interest in being a man, and freshly ensouled angel(us) does not want to be a man yet, but because at that point he's basically liam who's reliving angelus' deeds as his own, and while liam was a terrible dick, he never really enjoyed others' suffering, so he can no longer be simply a monster. for spike the divide between spike and william is not as big, because when the soul came back, spike had already stepped away from the monster he became with the whirlwind and objectively, if spike hadn't gotten chipped, he would likely never want his soul back. even wanting buffy would not change that, he'd either die fighting her or kill his third slayer n unlike with previous two, he'd probably turn buffy (and who knows what relationship dynamic would that be). i'm not saying this because i think spike is horrible or sumth, i love him. but without the chip (or some other turn of the plot) scoobies would never let him get closer, spike wouldn't get attached to buffy (and the scoobies) and so he'd never ever have the reason to wanna be a better person.
He die to save others may live that selfless act leaves a mark, If he didn't have one before he dose now! That a huge act was made out of love out and love come from one who has a heart and soul!
Agreed. Criticism is the fuel for personal growth. If you go through life hearing nothing but "Attaboy!" You will never be forced to face your failings.
The bathroom -almost-rape scene always gave me chills. I wanted to reach through the screen and grab Spike, tell him NO, this isn't the way...I don't believe he could have raped her but goddamn, talk about a scene that makes your heart race.
This brings back memories. When it was first airing, I was an active user on a message board called All Things Philosophical on Buffy the Vampire Slayer arguing about whether or not a soulless person could be moral in the show. Sarah's analysis does a great job encapsulating my feelings on the subject. Also, I'd like to mention that the writers were having similar arguments at the time.
Why was there such a stark difference between Angel and Spike when they got souls back? There was an Angel comic from years back that suggested that when Angels was cursed with a soul, the soul wasn’t Liam’s. It’s why he went from layabout to hero, but this has never been followed up on.
Licardo Gwira - never read the comics for Angel, but that’s interesting. Dunno how I personally feel about it if it were true though, lol. I guess it would just take away from the idea behind the curse and Angel’s arc. He went from a lazy drunk, to an evil soulless monster, to someone who realized what happened to him and the consequences of his actions. After rewatching Angel a couple times, there are episodes from his past that contradict what the comic suggests. His story is basically an addict becoming sober and righting the wrongs he’s done to others. Since it’s a hard quest, he backtracks often. Basically going back to how he acted as Liam; killing and drinking from an innocent human, allowing a demon a feed on people and “kill” him at the hotel, putting aside his friends to ruin Darla and Dru, and etc. I guess that’s why I ended up liking Angel’s arc and series, despite not liking broody and overly dark characters. Lol. His story wasn’t about the path to redemption, it was him realizing that redemption is a state of being. Okay, done with the ramble. Might try to pick up the Angel comics now.
HC Iapetus It was a mini series from years back. I’ll have to look up the name. Basically the curse used on Angel was intended for another vampire, but because of Angelus feeding on the gypsies daughter he used it on him instead. This vampire goes after Angel because he feels Angels soul is his. After he and Angel fight and before he dies he says to Angel “do you really believe that’s Liam’s soul” It was only mentioned that one time and never revisited again, as far as I know.
Licardo Gwira - thank you for the description. I’ll have to look it up too. I usually love mini series for comics; canon or one shots, usually like them. I like how tv shows and comics try to add more drama to characters dealing with the past, but only end up raising more questions for the audience/readers. With this scenario, it raises the question of how the gypsy spell works. How do they target the soul and who it belongs to? Cause when Willow performed the spell, it worked, but was it Liam’s soul? Or someone else’s? It’s not something to keep anyone up all night, but it’s certain fun for me to think about these things. Lol
When Liam became Angelus, he was not a good person to begin with. When Angelus became Angel, he pretty much lived in his guilt over his vampiric life and strove o do eternal penance for it. When William became Spike/William the blood, he just let himself be evil and angry. Then he fell in love with Biffy, in more than one incarnation of love. By the end, he was wanting to be a good man, the way she treated him once the chip was in, because she saw him as one. Drucilla was just a crazy lady ho became a crazy vampire, so her actions pretty much said she didn't expect anything but a crazy vampire from Spike.
Because Angel was CURSED with a soul and Spike SOUGHT out a soul. Totally different men/monsters with totally different reactions to the same event. That's the point. The fact Spike sought it out showed that he never really needed a soul in the first place.
I've always thought spike left to remove his feelings for buffy at season 6, so he could pay her back for all the heart ache. But he phrased his wish to the trial wrong instead of granting what he wanted the trial gave spike a soul because it's something that buffy needed for the next arc in the series.
In screenplay language it's called a mislead or a "red herring" - the viewer is given ambiguous signals so that there's shock value in how it really turns out later. Joss and James have said that Spike was fully intending to get his soul back for Buffy. The scenes were written with intentional misguidance to make the viewer uncertain what was going on.
Where does this come from? Spike says several times over in s7 that he meant to get the soul, always did, that he wanted to be a man, he wanted to be hers and be loved. How do people miss something repeated so often? If you think about it, it makes no sense either. Spike didn't need the chip out to kill Buffy, it already didn't work on her. He could have already fought and killed her if he wanted!
I think the r scene is coupled with both the fact of not having a soul and him being in abusive relationships in the past and understanding how to act properly.
Spike is the definition of someone that can change and cure for them more than ever care for them themselves that empathy and understanding eventually comes to show a character and that is going to try something that and make sure someone else's happiness more important but is also desperate for love probably can find it
I have been reading The Complete Signet Classic Shakespeare, and in the introduction they talk about how popular plays about knights fighting monsters and becoming better for their lady loves were during Shakespeare's youth. It was so popular and cliched that Cervantes wrote Don Quixote partly as a satire of the whole genre. The point is Spike is embodying a very old ideal. That loving someone or something and being loved in turn makes us better irrespective of your gender.
i had no audio from 12:59 to 15:26. i checked it 3x, even trying *captions* , which weren't available. If this was a *copyright strike* , that would be a shame, bc if ever there was a *video* made "for educational purposes", *this is it* . You had graphs and charts, and "BUFFY", (a show *studied on college* campuses..) so i'm not sure why YOU would be hit w/ a strike. 😯
![I wish I could (and I don't) love Wes [Angel the Series]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/QesOzxN3Vss/mqdefault.jpg)
When your character is supposed to be killed off in like Season 2 but you do such a good job at it that you end up staying on the rest of the show and spend the rest of your life breaking it to your fellow Americans that you're not actually English
funny is that Joss told off Marsters in the beginning, told him not to get a big head and think he's gonna take over the show with his character... in the end he did LOL
@@orpheusbreeze Yes when james asked Joss to not do the Bathroom scene Joss demanded the scene to be filmed. With Charisma her recent reveal of what he was like on set the scene is even more creepy.
@@jody024
I heard he was suppose to be real creepy yeah
And then getting angel renewed for a fifth season single handedly 💪💪
@@orpheusbreeze 😂😂😂😂😂 yes Spike took over! He was even in Angel!
Spike was an INCREDIBLE character - not just one of the best in Buffy, but in just about any story, ever. So much depth, so many shades of black, white and grey. Fantastically written, and fantastically played by James Marsters.
Completely agree 🙏🏻🙏🏻
Totally agree!! Angel was Angelus as soon as he lost his soul where spike went and got his soul after he attacked Buffy
When's the next train to Hells Kitchen?
I said, Spike meets Dottie from Agent Carter and screams not another bloody Underwood! Next thing I know my names in Witchblade, Did I tell you that one?
I think the episode in which Spike is tortured by Glory to reveal the Key's identity is also a turning point. He does something very selfless that would've gone unnoticed if Buffy hadn't tricked him into revealing it. He endures hours of torture but it doesn't matter to him because physical pain is nothing compared to the pain of seeing Buffy heartbroken if her sister was to be killed.
It's not as big a motivation, but I think him punching Tara deserves more attention too.
It was technically violent but completely selfless. He gained nothing from it but protected her in more ways than one.
I definitely agree. That torture scene is one of the moments I personally cite most often when arguing in favor of Spike - Buffy had already told him there was no chance, that she would never be with him. Also, Joyce was gone, the Scoobies didn't want him around, and nearly every other demon we ever meet throughout the series would most likely have seen Glory's advantages over the good guys and chosen to side with her for survival. Most importantly, no one was watching. Soulless Spike was 100% prepared to die alone to protect Dawn and spare the woman he loved - who did not love him back - from terrible pain.
Spike's is the absolute greatest redemption story ever told, imho.
One of my favorite moments in the series.
@@lisaedwards9861 makes sense he doesn’t want willow to be unhappy as that would make buffy upset
Absolutely, complete selfless
I met James at a Comic-Con and he was so humble. I told him his performance made the show for me and he replied “the writing made it for me.” Also, he had crazy soft hands.
Everything Spike did was motivated by love, whether he had a soul or not. Becoming a vampire, moving to Sunnydale for Dru, helping the good guys, getting his soul back, everything. He didn't always get it right, but he always acted out of love.
Love is the crux of spiles character. The poet.
Just as much and regret and shame are the crux of Angel
@@omalleycaboose5937 Yea, Angel(or Angelus) was all about spiting prime, proper and responsibilities. I think one way to mess with Angel might have been to bring up his sister. While it woudn't have made him cry or anything, I think it would have distracted and annoyed him. Definitely ruined his mood for the rest of the day and make you a prime target of his ire. While he was alive he rather enjoyed her worship of him. And after he returned to "life" she was the one who named him Angel. The way he killed her was more like a mercy killing. He certainly could have come up with something far worse for her, to increase the torment of his father, but he didn't. It was almost like he mainly just didn't want her to see how he changed for even worse and rid himself of the responsibility of her well being as quickly as possible.
I disagree
@@ghouling1111 i wouldn't say "everything" either. But it does definitely seem to be the core of his charector and the themes theu were exploring with him
Don't forget turning his mom to save her from consumption. He did that as a soulless vamp before he was around any of the goodies.
Love the bit where Willow asks if its her & Spike has to reassure her that she was "bitable"
Spike had a soft spot for the ladies.
When Tara was being called a demon by her family Spike said he didn't care but immediately proved them wrong even if it meant pain to him.
When Buffy mom died, he went to the funeral and honestly showed his respects.
When the gang found out Spike was in love with buffy and everyone tried to mock him, he just mocked them back except for Dawn which he just quietly got away from.
@@ChaosAngel667 Yeah he was a momma's boy and then turned by Drusilla, he always had a soft spot for the ladies in his life.
James once said that his Character Spike, always had a soul. He was always William, the soppy, sensitive, poet, he tried to hide, behind Spike, his Punk ultra ego. "Find the love James..."
He said to himself, after Whedon told him (He was a souless creature.) So James said F** that, & he tried to find the love, cause he didn't want to be killed right away. Spike wasn't written to last.
Till James made him unique to Angel, & played Spike, with a sensitivity, & soul.
He made Cast & Crew feel for him, eventually Joss came round as well, & saw the Punk Vampyre from Brittan as a fun addition to the regular Cast leads, & situations had changed, to incorporate Spike more then before.
But only due to James dedication to Spike. Even though he would become terrified at every script, the writers would come up with.
Spike lives on in all our hearts, thanks to James, seeing thru Spike's recreated journey arc.
Everyone, felt the void when the character was missing from the show. & Yeah, they Clock work Oranged Spike, in order to make him able to fit in with Buffy & the Scoobies.🤦🏼♂️ But his character arc was not only the most memorable but beloved by James willingness to go there, & do as Joss & the writers wanted of him.
Thank you James for being the best Spike for it. 🧑🏼⚔️💗🤟🏼
⚔️💗🤛🏼🔥He found the Love, & saved Spike. 🤟🏼💗
To me there’s also Spike’s relationship with Buffy’s family.
Dawn was like a little sister to him, being willing to help her out and look after her at several points.
And then there’s his friendship with Joyce, which was adorable at times. From them discussing his relationship issues with Dru over hot coca, to chatting about their favorite soap operas, even to his reaction to her death, bringing flowers to the house intending to leave them anonymously.
I love the action at 16:20, where Spike reaches for Buffy but when she turns her head away he immediately pulls away, respecting her wish not to be touched. That, coupled with him saying "when I say I love you, it's not because I want you, or because I can't have you, it has nothing to do with me" is the peak of his development, for me. He's respecting her boundaries, and he has developed a selfless love. It's not about doing things to "get the girl," or "to be loved and accepted," he just genuinely wants her to be happy and to feel believed in at a point where she feels no one does.
James Marster's is such an underrated actor. Even when spike was "evil" you couldn't help but love him... James Marster's is an amazing actor who deserves a lot more credit... I mean who else could pull off a British accent for 7 years and not have the entire world realize he's from California?!
Well, English people can tell lol. But, I agree. When I hear him speak in his California accent, it's very strange to me
@@oneslikeme Yeah that accent is not convincing😂
@@Rose-cj7wi I was born and grew up in Essex, but so close to the London border my Secondary School had an East London postcode (as did West Essex Golf Club, to which my dad belonged). My dad was from Dagenham, my mum from Camden Town and Wood Green. I had no idea what Spike's accent was supposed to be until I saw James Marsters talking about it in a magazine interview.
He is a great character--one of my favourites--well portrayed, but that accent is just... unclear, shall we say?
@@peridotgladioli8259 I’m from Liverpool so I’m no expert on southern accents, I just know that Spike doesn’t have one haha
Angel was a less interesting character and didn't try to redeem himself until his soul was forced back into his body. The one who deserves his life back is the one who fought for his humanity since the beginning. Spike was the chosen one, not Angel.
He didn’t fight for his humanity from the beginning. He did so much later.
I always believe if Angel kept going the show. Spike would’ve been the chosen one but he would’ve gave it up so Angel could become human.
Lmfaoo wrong your spike bias is showing
I almost love Spike and Angel equally, and appreciate the fact they're different takes on getting their soul.
Personally, I love the fact that it took many many years for Angel to actually become a good being after getting his soul.
@@Alejandro333777 thats how opinions work. everyone is bias.
James at first really convinced me with his role that he was actually English
I remember at the time actual British people were complimenting him on how good it was.
Wait he's not????? *world collapses along with my childhood* 😱😱😱😱😱
I still forget that he isn't.
as an englishman i can tell he isnt but it is a bloody good imitation
@@anelbre0904 Yeah. He studied accents at Julliard before he quit or got kicked-out or something. He's actually from Modesto, CA.
When he comes to kill Buffy and ends up comforting her 😭
We learned that the sunnydale sign should be bloody terrified of spike
spike was such an incredible character. I always preferred him to angel because his character ac was so fascinating and he did so much within himself. Angel was only ever good when "cursed" and forced to be. a lot of the scenes with spike were the ones that really moved me. that scene in the church when buffy learns he got his soul back, that still makes me cry. Even when buffy dies after sacrificing herself to stop glory, it's not that she's dead that makes me cry, it's spike's reaction to her death that really gets me. and that scene in the last season where he gives her that pep talk is everything. that's when you can really see them truly connecting for the first time. and in the season finale, oh my god, that moment he burns up always tears me to pieces. Spike was easily my favourite character, and could always move me the most, because his character arc is so impressive and so genuinely amazing. a bad guy who turns good-ish, and then makes a huge mistake, but learns from that mistake and comes back to be the BEST guy who saves the world? it's insanely inspiring, and i think more than anything, it teaches us that even when we mess up BIG, it's still possible to redeem ourselves. that's the real message, and that's huge.
When the show first ran, I never got Angel. (Hell, I still don't) Spike? Totally!
But then again I liked Luke Skywalker more than Han Solo, and Peter Scolari (however that's properly spelled) more than Tom Hanks on Bosom Buddies. I think I just don't like the obvious guy, the one we're supposed to swoon all over. And I'm a million years old! :0)
I kind of appreciate both to an equal degree.
They may both have souls, but their journeys are intended to be entirely different.
Liam was not a good person to begin with, and becoming Angellus and through Darla's ways, he became all the more worse than even a typical vampire.
Then he got a soul, and it wasn't even a simple journey of redemption. He battled with wondering who he should be, and still continued to bad, even knowing the wrong of it all. Along the way, he became more and more a better person, but even still as Angel, he could be very grey.
Spike is awesome as a character, and I think if anything I prefer James Marsters charisma with Spike's wit, but I think Angel's journey is overall the more interesting one
Agreed. I was only disappointed that once his character joined Angel, there wasn't a lot more talk about him and Buffy. They'd built their relationship up to be so epic. When he finds himself alive again, I really wanted him to go to her. I understand why he didn't, but man, they were magic together--way more than she ever was with Angel.
The grace of the angel character is destiny, destiny made him become a huge monster and destiny gave him a soul, destiny gave him his love, destiny sent him to hell and destiny brought him back .
Angel is duality, good and evil, spike is contradiction, demon but human, badass but with a heart.
Spike saved season 5 even though he didn't save it for good.
@@cv8499 ikr! Why didn’t they make Spike fund Buffy in the Angel series?
Spike was always the most fascinating character to me by a mile. Look at any other character, and their journey and transformation still doesn't match his. His is incredible. He was always a slightly different kind of vampire, he has always been motivated by love, from Cecily to Dru to Buffy. But his arc shows that you can fall in the worst ways and still find redemption. I will never forget that Spike was the only vampire to ever seek out a soul, Angel never did. Angel was forced to be good, Spike worked to be good. There is a massive difference. And in the final episodes, Spike was the only one to truly believe in Buffy. Her own friends, sister and watcher turned away from her, but Spike was the only one to remain. He saved the world twice, once by empowering Buffy when she thought all hope was lost, and again by dying for it himself. I like to think Buffy did love Spike, truly. He understood her like nobody else did, and he proved himself to be her confidant, her friend and her protector. That is love.
I totally agree. And just in case you didn’t know they got together in the comics which I absolutely love
Wesley Wyndham price !
Faith second place
I agree. Buffy said that she has feelings but it is not love,becouse she couldn't never to trust him. But at 7 season she relies him. It means that she in love. They came all the way together and love each other really
Just a small thing - Angel didn't become good immediately after gaining his soul, he had a long journey from getting his soul back to becoming good, and definitely worked for it. There were 100 years between his ensoulment and Buffy season 1, during which he... yeah practically did nothing good and literally just brooded for the whole time which doesn't sound that good to be honest...
But both of them had a journey to becoming good. Just one was before the soul, and one was after (plus it's important to note that Spike had role models to emulate, while souled Angel literally only had the influence of Darla and Dru - it's not so simple to say that one (souled) self is better than the other).
But yeah, good point.
I always felt Spike wasn't a normal vampire, even after he was sired he kept strong feelings of love toward his mother (when vampires normally kill their families) and sired her because of that, her mother on the other hand once sired was was sadistic and hateful towards him. So I bet Spike is not really what we can call an example of what vampire in the setting can do, is like part of his soul remain or some other reason when he was sired which make him always especial.
When vampires turn in Buffy, they take traits and memories of their prior selves. Spike's mother seemed like she really wasn't all that happy as she put off when she was a human. The Judge could hurt anyone with humanity and was able to kill the vampire who helped Spike & Dru put him together. He said he was still tied to humanity due to his love of books. He never touched Dru or Spike but said they held onto their jealousy and affection which is also human. He wasn't able to burn soul-less Angel oddly enough. Everyone loves Buffy and Angel together but if you really look at it - was Angel a good human? He was a drunk who slept around and only had humanity when he was cursed to feel bad for what he had done. I feel like that's why he was so good at being bad when he was bad. Spike however, showed humanity even before turning.
There's actually a cool theory how there is something wrong w/ Spikes entire Sire line. Spike and Dru, Angel and Darla, Darla and the Master. They had very human like emotional attachments to each other. Soulless, yet cared for one another.
Becoming a vampire is like getting drunk, doesn't actually change you as much expose you. Angel was a worthless POS as a human so the worst vampire ever. Spike was a good person, and therefore a "good" vampire.
@@MultiRekrap i mean if vamps had no attachments to each other they'd never trust others enough to nest together. it is beneficial to have at least a tiniest degree of trust (although it can also be respect or fear) because that means you always have a place to crash at and a neck to drink from. and connecting with sires/those who you sired is probably easier because you're *already* connected by blood.
vampires are basically pack animals but with aggression up to 11
Spike is chaotic neutral. one of the greatest characters that i saw on tv
I disagree. He starts chaotic evil, briefly becomes chaotic neutral, and ends the series chaotic good.
I LOVED Spike when I was 9 years old, and I LOVE him now that I'm 23
I guess you are an american
@@michaelhawkins7389 No, I'm itaian!!!
What on earth were you doing watch this show at such a young age!?!
Harley Quinn what do u mean, isn’t that normal, I used to watch horror movies like 13 ghost when I was like 7
@@harleyquinn5774 I watched it before going to kindergarten in the morning.
When loosing their soul and becoming a vampire in the Buffyverse, several things in their character change:
* They get stuck in their final moment. The feelings, motivations and themes are engraved into them, their are unable to change, to develop as a person
* They loose any sense of moral, of empathetic connection. They still can guess how someone is feeling if they want, they just stop caring
* They stop being social animals and get a predatory minset. They cannot feel lonely or rejected
Spike has a special potential because of his strong emotional state in which he is transformed. Even as a vampire, he is still guided by love, care for others (drusilla and his mother) and passion. This gives him motivation to act in ways other vampires would never have a reason to act, and attaches him to the world.
In his affection for and maddening possession about Buffy, all these things come together, and his passion is directed toward changing into the man she could love.
Angelus didn't care about anything. Even about Darla.
He once babbled to a hunter where Darla's location was.
He was sadistic and evil,but just like a vamp should be actually,well - souless creature after all.
The only reason Spike turned evil and said fuck the World was because when he was human the world turned it’s back on him. Angel knew this and used it. Considering the bloodline they have that’s why Spike became the second worst vampire ever recorded.
Spike telling Andrew he'd bite him if he ever told anyone what he just said isn't really a negative comment. It's like if you told someone a secret and followed it up with "tell anyone and I'll kill you" that doesn't mean you would actually kill them, it's basically asking them not to tell anyone else but doing so in a way that shows how seriously you don't want others to find out.
I see your point, but you could just say "let's keep this just between us" secrets can be important, but threatening someone into keeping it, even if they don't intend on physically endangering the other person, is still a negative comment. A threat is a threat, which is toxic and abusive behaviour.
@@corrinabarnett8226 But it wasn't really a threat.
His devotion to her is so attractive he’s loyal and loving even when they were at odds
I remember Spike covering for Buffy and pretending to be in a band as a pivotal (and hilarious) moment of character development 😂
Plays the triangle 😂
Spike will always be one of my favorite characters from Buffy, he goes through a great deal of changes and develops very well. Unlike angel, Spike actually fought for Redemption
I would say Angel fought for redemption. That is the entire concept of his spinoff
I Never liked Angel. But I like all the other actors on his spin-off. He was also more likable in his own show.
Matt and Omalley
Unlike some I don't they're mutually exclusive.
He must be the only vampire that ever went looking for his soul
@@omalleycaboose5937 You take both spike and angel right now and take their souls, angel tries to kill everyone including Buffy and destroy the world. Spike would try and stop angel and then do whatever it took to get his soul back. Spike is clearly the better man of the 2, he wants to be good with and without a soul.
What I feel like are underrappreciated moments that show his evolution are the ones where Spike listens. Just like he says, he's not a thinker or a rational person, he's a person acting with his heart, and that's always been the case, even when he was a human. He was a romantic, full of passion type of guy and being a vampire only highlighted that, while also twisting his version of love - if we consider his relationship with Drusilla. But Buffy finds comfort in moments of silence and "silent sharing" with Spike. Yknow, one of the first turning points stated in this video is a moment where Spike "gets it" without Buffy having to say anything. Then there are other moments like when Buffy shares with him first that she was dead in Heaven, peaceful and happy. This is the most intimate thing she's ever told anyone at this point, and she told it to him. These are moments that also provoked Spike's evolution, because they're moments where Buffy lets him in. They're the moments where she truly connects with him and allows him to feel like he's someone worthy of listening to her and comforting her in some ways. Some people tend to forget, that love and trust build themselves on a ground of confidence and intimacy, and I feel like where sometimes Angel wasn't recepient of this intimacy coming from Buffy, neither Giles or her friends, Spike always did the job on that part.
Also shallow me really loves the fact that Spike is brought back to life in Angel, even tho it serves to destroy his relationship to Buffy (just like it did with Buffy and Angel) or even Buffy's character to begin with.
Exactly. I'd include the experimental sex they have with that too- how she let him in, even in a self destructive Plutonian kind of way.
I mean in the comics she does choose him. And then they part and stay friends. I like that Angel was a vehicle for her relationship with Spike. The one with Spike being more profound and personally evolving. Angel just isn't worthy and Buffy has a hard time accepting her monster side so she keeps rejecting it as a physical person, which is Spike
James had already asked for the scene to be cut, but Joss demanded it to stay in. Now that Charisma has revealed what Joss was like on set the scene is extra heavy.
Which scene?
@@fuckmeup7743 The Bathroom scene of course, wtf else....
@@jody024 From what I understand James liked the idea that Spike is falling in love with Buffy, however he thought it shouldn't be reciprocated in any way, but Joss Wheadon (I think) insisted on the characters developing a romance. Then the writers came up with the bathroom scene, which was extremely difficult to film. He was trying to convince the writers not to do it, but...
@@user-qj9en1kp1mthat scene just didn't work, for the character, for the series, for the actors, for anything. It shouldn't have been forced.
:/
It’s not a surprise Spike is the most loved character in Buffy! It’s already enough he was a great villian BUT it went further than that. His journey from villian, to seeking redemption, to hero. The Third slayer he planned to kill is what ended up saving him from the continue loop of his vampire life due to his depressing past! Spikes character is so good it’s almost OP because he’s like enjoyable as a villian and a hero. To me, it’s hard to pull off characters like that. Spike was originally intended to be on for like 3 eps but there’s great reason why he was loved so quickly. He even made the Angel spinoff more interesting. And I loved how the 3rd slayer on his life he intended to kill, ended up changing his life for the better! Ugh! Such a GREAT story. Of course some credit goes to Joss and some writers, but some credit goes to the fans too. If Spikes debut was never popular, he would’ve only been around for like 3 eps
Best written character in the Buffyverse.
Effulgent.
Shiny.
And buffy last word is SPIKE
And he knocks over the welcome to Sunnydale sign sign one last time ::chokes up::
Her last thoughts were "cookie dough". aka Angel.
@@DanY-gx2dv uhhh in case you hadn't noticed, "cookie dough" meant that she didn't know, not that she loved Angel
And in the same scene she tells Angel that Spike has a special place in her heart
She also took on his way of talking a little bit in Showtime. She says "Here endeth the lesson" which is what Spike said to her when telling her the stories of killing his 2 Slayers.
Buffy's last word is "you" as in "I love you" then he says "no you don't but thanks for saying it..."
I loved that Spike was there for her when nobody else was. Once Joyce and Giles and Angel and Riley were all gone and she needed help with Dawn, she needed help coping with being brought back from the dead, and just for general emotional support.
Spike is by far the most important and well developed of all the characters. And he's bloody gorgeous! He suffered by far the most for Buffy et al than any of her friends. I love him, and I actually cried when he died.. good to see him back in Angel later! Viva Spike!
When spike sees Buffy cry priceless scene
when he was without a soul she had feelings for him but it was not love. It was passion sympathy and attraction. When he returned his soul, she saw his changes and striving to become a better man. She started to trust and to rely on him. During this time she fell in love with him.
I'd argue that there were two turning points prior to Becoming.
1. His injury
2. The return of Angelus
This marking the beginning of protracted period of humiliation, thus leading to his ultimate redemption.
spike is truly the adult, mature and forever love of buffy
This is the first time I've watched the scene where Spike tries to force himself on Buffy since that episode originally aired. I forgot how brutal it was. Great acting by Sarah and James. That must have been difficult to shoot.
I remember reading an interview with him and he said it was his hardest thing he's ever had to shoot
The scene never rang true to me. Spike had never tried to force himself on Buffy before that. Why would he now? If he had tried to kiss her and Buffy hit him, fine. But knocking her to the floor. It didn’t make sense.
@@ndrose It does kinda. Their physical relationship up until Buffy dumped him had always begun with an element of violence. Ended with sweet word, but began by destroying the furniture. Add in the “go away come here” dynamic and the one-upsmanship, and what Spike does here seems more like an overture than an attack (to me, anyway), the first move in an old game Buffy inexplicably doesn’t want to play anymore.
Just saying, he does stop himself. After she pushes him away,you can see it dawns on him how wrong he is and leaves consumed with self hatred over his actions. He could have gone all vamp and forced her.
I'm all for this video cause I always thought to myself, "you can't really tell a difference between Spike with or without a soul, even in season two he bands with buffy because he "wants Dru back and he wants to save the world" and you can start to see some of that loveable charm... Angel on the other hand BIG DIFFERENENCE!
In the comics there is a bad guy who steals Spike soul. Spike feels no difference at all.
That near rape scene was not only disturbing - it was Joss Whedon punishing Sarah Michelle Gellar for standing up to him. She didn't like these scenes. He wrote them to show her who is the boss of the show. He's a vindictive, power hungry man with clear anger issues which he led out on young actors and writers. As bad as this scene is in the show, on a meta level it becomes even worse.
I've never heard of SMG being that against that scene other than thinking it wasn't necessary but I'd believe it. I have heard several stories from James Marsters (Spike's actor) talking about how deeply uncomfortable he was with filming the scene and how he requested for them to change the script several times. The footage they used was apparently the only take they did because he hated it so much, and to this day he doesn't like talking about it--he also apparently added a clause to his contract between s6 and 7 so that he couldn't be forced to portray sexual assault anymore. James has also told several stories about Whedon screaming at him, pinning him to walls and other stuff because Spike was way more popular than anyone anticipated and Whedon--who was firmly of the opinion that Soulless vamps should be irredeemable monsters--was unhappy Spike had such a massive fanbase. Seeing Red was also meant to punish Spike's fans; Whedon has said outright that people needed to be "reminded" that Spike was evil. Needless to say, it's a horrid reason to put your actors and audience through such disturbing content but he clearly didn't care.
That's not even mentioning the whole Jasmine plot on AtS being very very clear punishment towards Charisma Carpenter (Cordelia's actress) for getting pregnant, and Michelle Trachenburg (Dawn's actress) admitting about how he wasn't allowed alone with her--which has troubling to downright nauseating implications.Yeah, Whedon sucks. Whatever talent he has isn't worth his ego and abuse of both his actors and fanbase. Dude shouldn't get work anymore.
@@primrosett I never read her talking about this scene in particular, just statements that she was uncomfortable with the sex scenes in season six in general.
@@primrosett And to add - not only is it disturbing that Whedon was not allowed to be in a room with Trachtenberg when she was a minor but it puts some other things in perspective, especially the Buffy/Angel romance. I don't even mean the age difference between sixteen and 250, we get a similar problem with Buffy and Spike but Spike only fell in love with her and started to pursue her when she was an adult. Angel dated her when she was still a teenager. And Cordelia constantly dated older guys, even openly advocating for it. It was as if the show was endorsing young men having sex with minors.
Full disclosure, I'm from Germany. We have different age restrictions regarding what constitutes statutory rape than the US. There is no clear cut-off at 18. Under 14 everything is illegal. Above 14 it's not illegal if the partner is under 18 as well. Above 16 it's not illegal if the partner is above 21. Above 18 everything goes through. The thing is, even under these way more liberal laws, what Angel did would be qualified as rape - he was sired at the age of 26. So essentially, he was a 26 year old who had sexual relations with a 16 year old in "Surprise". And nobody said anything. It was treated as completely normal.
The thing is, if Whedon thought it was okay for adult men to have sexual relations with teenaged girls, it would not only explain why he a wrote it that way and why b he behaved in a way towards Michelle Trachtenberg that would it necessary for the other producers to step in and keep her safe.
I fell in love with Spike when I was like 9 and still love him today at 31!
Spike's, Wes', and Cordelija's character arcs are just brilliant
I’m so happy that spike wasn’t killed in season 2 and instead died in season 7 saving the world and is resurrected in angel :)
in Becoming his interactions with Joyce are great.
What Spike says in 'Seeing Red' is very reminiscent of his speech in 'Lover's Walk'. All that time has passed and he still has that unhealthy passion, that twisted interpretation of what love is. That's a side of him that hasn't changed much and that's scary. The realization of that is so real and brutal.
Watching that scene again, it seemed that Spike at first was actually trying to break things off exactly because he didn't like what their relationship made him feel or do. That it wasn't until Buffy started in on him both denying him an escape from the relationship and at the same time denying having any feelings for him, that the whole thing turns ugly. Their whole relationship had been until then a very physical one, twisted and toxic, and Buffy had been the one who set the terms for that. She had been the one up until that moment, who was perfectly fine with verbally abusing him one moment before having sex with him the next, and then going back to abusing him. All because that suited HER needs- but with no care or consideration for his.
Does the fact that he is not human justify such behavior? Would not her actions have been judged selfish and immoral by the standards that this analysis used? Didn't she also say plenty of negative things to Spike all those times and in that scene that were meant to be hurtful?
So while his actions are bad and inexcusable they don't happen in a vacuum. Buffy's own inexcusable conduct towards Spike was a form of emotional rape, she took advantage of him plain and simple and refused to admit it even to herself, which finally provokes this scene.
@@a.westenholz4032 I agree with this. While awful and never acceptable, his attack did not take place in a vacuum. I see it as his mistaking her resistance for yet another preamble to the "hate sex" they'd aways had - their sexual encounters had always been fueled by Buffy's angry mix of aggressive, abusive dominance - she was often the one initiating, not him, and her resistance to what they were doing, her denial of wanting him or loving him. They had played the "hate you/want you" game so many times, that he thought this was the same, the difference being she meant No this time, and she meant it for real. His attempted rape was, in his mind, not an evil "I want to hurt you" rape but a huge mistake where he thought she was just doing another playing hard to get moment.
It doesn't make it right but it's the real dynamic here.
@@BreezeOnTheLake Exactly. This is a case where I think both Buffy and Spike become victims of the game Buffy has been playing with Spike. So what happens is indeed ugly and unfortunate, but I'm not sure if I don't in the end blame Buffy more for the situation occurring, since it was her who set the terms of their relationship and how they usually engaged. It is something that was bound to go wrong at some point. As you say, she was the one with the issues; wanting him but not wanting to admit it, using him for stress relief, and basically jerking him around playing hot and cold.
My first bad boy crush was spike
Since this show is a major part of my teen years and Spike William the Bloody was my favorite character I was hoping your analysis and my adult brain wouldn't ruin my memories of him I'm glad to say you didn't.
I loved Buffy and Angel tv shows. Spike was one of my favorite characters, his character really evolved over the seasons.
Great video! To me, the more difficult question is how much empathy (if any) a soulless vampire can possess. For most of the show, the answer seems to be none, yet there are some exceptions (like Spike's guarding of Dawn) which are never adequately explained.
I also loved seeing the detailed charts you made.
Vampires dont have empathy. Some of them have feelings and may even have love for other people. But empathy is not just having feelings. Empathy is being able to care for a complete stranger, being able to put yourself in their situation. Thats also what a conscious is.
@@Deffine I agree that vampires generally don't have any. Empathy is being able to understand and share the feelings of another, not necessarily just a stranger. In Season 5, Spike undergoes torture protecting Dawn because he understands Buffy's feelings for her sister. After Buffy dies in Thr Gift, he spends several months caring for Dawn at personal risk. As far as he knows, there is no possibility of Buffy ever returning or rewarding him for that loyalty, so why does he do it? I have never yet heard a satisfactory explanation that gels with the vampire mythology.
The answer is love. Truly terrible people can have love for other people. Like i said, love is not empathy. Its like people who have love for their family, but hate or have no empathy for people they deem unworthy. Like in roman times it was perfectly normal to love your family while simultaneous having slaves that you mistreat and rape. A serial killer can love his family.
A little off topic, but this is also what is wrong with society today. People think having love makes something good. In the future, as generations get more and more degenerate, the liberals will make pedophilia normal and acceptable, all under the umbrella of love. The lobbyism of liberal media have already started.
I believe it has to do with the Basic Instinct of the character Spike was always passionate and very emotional person and as a soulless vampire guarding Dawn could be construed as him guarding a member of his pseudo pack because around that time he was a pseudo member of the Scooby gang by extension.
No soul, brings flowers to Joyce's wake.
Best character on the show. James was and is a good actor. Shame it didn't springboard him to even better high profile roles.
I'm so happy that someone made a video about this, j always wondered HOW it is that Spike has done so much good with and without a soul, where as Angel is always one or the other.
I've loved him since he stepped on screen!
SAME
Crazy how when Sunnyvale falls it looks so tiny
Well... it's a tv show and CGI are expensives (and where even more at that time).
Spike perfectly matched with Buffy they look very nice harmoniously and they are charming with a lot of chemistry between them.
That scene in Seeing Red has always felt so out of place and out of character to me. Every time I see it I have the same thought "This doesn't make sense".
I love Spike & this is such a great character analysis! He really is an amazing character
And to think he was only going to be a one off villain.
That rape scene was probably the most traumatising scene to me as a kid. Watching a character i loved do that to another character i loved.
I don't remember which season it was, maybe season 5, but Willow and Tara talk about Quasimodo from Hunchback of Notre Dame, and the one of them said Quasi couldn't get the girl because he was doing good for the wrong reason...that's when I knew Joss Whedon was never going to let Spike have a happily ever after. I was sad but agreed.
Does anyone recall a scene where Buffy overhears Spike warning others NOT to attack buffy's mom or sister because she's been through too much?
i do not believe a scene as such exists..
He tells Dawn not to tell Buffy about resurrected their mother but says he's doing it as he's tired of seeing them both get dumped on. It's not a good or right action but is motivated by empathy for them.
I think you are talking about the scene after Spike is beaten by Glory and Buffy pretends to be the Buffy Bot and offers to go tell Glory who the Key is so Glory does not try to hurt him again. He tells her (thinking she is the Bot) "No." and when asked why " He explains that Buffy could not handle the pain of losing Dawn after losing her mom, because she's been through too much. I think the episode is "Intervention."
1st time saw Spike appeared in BtVS long time ago, 1 word in my mind...WOW. Spike will always be my favorite Vampire 😄😄😄
This was a very well produced and thought out video.
im really glad they brought spike into Angel season 5 after Buffy finished. A great way to carry on the character
Spike was always the best!!!!
Spike drove a "1959 Desoto Fireflite" the sign falling down at the end of the last episode is homage to his arrival in Sunnydale in season 2 where he runs over the welcome to Sunnydale sign.
That poor character was in 2 toxic relationships he deserved better
The more I watched the show the more I loved Spike. He was "bad", but I think he always had a good heart underneath. Maybe it had something to do with who he was associating with.🤔 Spike turns out to be the hero of the show!😊 💗
He never had a moral compass before soul. Remember when he thought his chip was gone the first thing he did was go and try and kill a girl in a alley.
The one thing that makes me incredibly angry is that Buffy and spike never kiss or ANYTHING after he gets his soul back they just CUDDLE and it angers me I wanted them to be endgame 😭 and she didn’t even kiss him when he was dying
I KNOW. UUGGGH! There are a couple of weird scenes with them in the basement before the last fight in Chosen where it was kept kind of open whether or not they kissed... I hated the whole ambiguity with them in the last season. It seemed obvious buffy loves him in many scenes but then nothing happened. I wonder why Joss chose to do it that way. Maybe to not enrage the bangel fans. But it frustrates me a lot lol.
@@susslife8307 agree..I loved their connection and tbh, the way the show kept them from really uniting and he dying just was sucha downer I lost interest in watching...
It was frustrating not to see more than just the holding all night, but Joss left it open to fans as to how they spent their last night in the basement - that short scene where you just see Buffy walk down the stairs, and they both stand there looking at each other. Joss says on the commentary that it's up to the viewer as to whether they just held each other that night, talked all night...or made love - Joss's actual words.
I also think it's kind of cool how, that night we saw all the other couples getting into hot and steamy sex like Spike and Buffy used to - but now they are chastely holding each other like you can only do when it's deepest love. That was a nice juxtaposition of where they're at emotionally with each other. They're beyond even great sex and into great love.
@@BreezeOnTheLake great comment
@@amudo425 Thanks!
From hilarious silly cool sexy badass anti-hero....His character moments later on are so heart warming and heart breaking it brings to tears to the eyes.
Think even without the chip, his compass needle was spinning already, the chip just slowed it down to where it could settle on the "hero" side. Without it, would have just taken longer, and almost certainlly been bloody. A & S( Curiously enough, it was Liam & William, which is actually where "Liam" comes from and also Billy is from, the Billy being Billy Idol who Spike claims, copied HIS look) are the same( as in previous bit with their given names) and polarly different in that both end up with souls but Angel is cursed with it and does not want, save for the penance the ensouled part desires; Spike sought his out and considers it a blessing.
Yes he did he fought for the good guys his moral compass was higher than Angelus .
Crying so much. Loved Spikes story throughout Buffy and Angel, brilliantly written.
James Marsters, couldn't have cast a better actor to play Spike he made the show far more interesting than Angel did Angel was always so angsty at first I like him & Buffy together. But when Spike & Buffy were put together I'm like "Wow!" now these two when from sparks to volcano eruption too bad Buffy's friends except for Tara & possibly Dawn were against Buffy & Spike being together. Especially Xander who I think was still butt hurt after so many years because Buffy just wasn't that into him no doubt he was jealous of mostly Angel & Spike. Riley IMO had no chemistry with Buffy what so ever I was glad their relationship ended quickly. In the end I think of all the guys Buffy loved Spike the most even though Spike said she didn't love him deep down she really did she loved him more than she did Angel at least Spike tried to redeem himself which appealed more to Buffy. I see Buffy, Spike & Dawn like Ripley, Nute & Hicks.
What an amazing deep dive into “William The Bloody’s” character! This video was great top to bottom. Seriously, the production value is right up there with the information in it. Do you have more breakdowns planned for the future? If so, color me Subbed!
So I have a thought. Angel never really loved Buffy but spike did. Now before you come for me just hear me out. Angel only loved Buffy when he had a soul and as soon as he didn’t he was going to kill her. Spike loved Buffy when he didn’t have a soul, so much so that went and got himself a soul.
a big factor in his shift from fighting with the bad guys to fighting against them was getting the chip implanted in his brain by The Initiative. He still needed to act out his violent nature but couldn't do that to his preferred target but discovered he could still have fun by beating on other demons. That doesn't mean a shift in his moral compass, more a different outlet for his violent behaviour. However, like other people have commented below, Spike/William was always love's bitch, though in his soullessness that became an unhealthy, obsessive type of love as with Dru and then Buffy.
Obviously he was written a particular way, but I wonder what the writers would have to say about spike's obsessive and often abusive version of love.
I mean, Dru sired him so it makes sense that he stayed with her. The question is: would he have been sadistic and possessive if it hadn't been for a century with Dru? She was crazy before she was changed and being a soulless vampire only made that worse. She was incredibly damaged and she is the one who fostered Spike's ability to love and be loved.
She taught him that possession and torture add abuse were love. It makes sense that he would struggle with showing affection in what we consider an appropriate manner.
William Pratt was knocking around in there, always.
in love with spike forever. his death scene always destroys me
Consider watching Angel, it will be a relief for you )
There were so, so, soooooooooo many stellar characters in Buffy the Vampire Slayer. But standing alone in a field of stars, we find Spike, one who outshines almost all the others! I find it unfathomable that he was originally meant to be a one-off character. The relationship between Buffy and Spike is so complex that it nearly defies description. They come to know and understand each other on a level so fundamental that it transcends Friendship, and possibly even Love. I remember a very poignant scene during the last season when Giles takes Buffy on a "training exercise" to distract her in order to allow Principal Wood to attempt to kill Spike. When she figures out what's going on, and realizes that Giles has essentially betrayed her, it is the only time in the entire series that she (figuratively **and** literally) turns away from him at the end of the episode, saying "I think you've taught me everything I need to know." Thus showing that even the one character that has been with her from the very beginning and whom she trusts most, messed with Spike at his own peril.
And James Marsters just...well...I don't really know how to describe what I want to say here, so I'll just get it out of the way: He's F**KING HOTT as Spike!!!! Even though the accent was (albeit believably) fake, and the hair was bleached, you still cannot deny the rest. That incredible chiseled, square jaw and cheekbones that could cut glass! Those exquisite lips, and...and...and...those EYES!!!! And that BODY! Sleek, and slender, and ripped without being overly big and bulky; broad shoulders and tiny waist with a great ass! Mmf! I don't often admit this "out loud", so to speak, but I've had erotic dreams about Spike on occasion! In summation, the character, the actor himself -- I DEFY anyone to say that they 100% dislike Spike! Even if he isn't your favorite character, you still probably like him at least a little bit.
AAAAHHHHHHHH!!!! The FEELS!!!!!!!! Tears! Literal tears. Brilliant video, reminds me of why I loved the show so much, and is second only to Doctor Who in emotional response! Damn, if James Marsters were ever on Doctor Who and died, I think it would kill me.
He kinda was. He was on torchwood.
@@Pepperoni-pg9oh Damn, I'd forgotten about that! Double damn, how could I have forgotten about one of the hottest make out scenes in TV history? Yeee-haaa, that was some hot stuff. And I don't know how true it is, but I love Barrowman's story of filming that scene. If I got to kiss James Masters, I'd make sure there was at least a half dozen "takes" as well...or more!
@@DravenGal James girlfriend was directing that sceen as well.
This video is a gem that any true Buffy fan could enjoy.
This was a great video, really well thought out and put together. I'd love to see another one of these for someone like Faith or Wesley.
Being Soulless means he can only do what he truly wants to do. He did great things because that was his core in the moment.
Each incident while soulless is an empty animal with Spikes memories choosing only what it wants to do based on survivability. So, when he falls in love with Buffy while soulless - it means he cannot live without her. He plays nice as long as it gets him closer to what he wants. Which is why he attempts to rape Buffy, he believes sex is on the table because she wants him back, regardless of how shes feeling in the moment.
It's also why Spike recovers faster after getting his soul, Spike does not blame himself for what he did as a demon...Angel does and still does. But with Spike he says it all when he beats Robin Wood "Unlike you, I had a mother that loved me back. When I sired her, I unleashed a demon - and it tore into me. But it was the DEMON talking." He does not think people are to blame for acts they do while possessed by a demon.
This was well written and well-acted.
I love that he doesn’t ask to be let in Buffy’s home. We were watching S2 recently and Angel asks Willow to let him in. I thought, wait if he is so moral then he should know the risks of letting himself in. Angel would understand the power of gaining entry and he would understand how dangerous he is. I think this shows there is still a bad guy in there making moves. And maybe Angel, or Liam, was not as good a person as Spike, William. That could be part of Angel’s trauma, knowing his nature is more selfish than he would like. Love this show, never get tired of it
Great analysis, thank you for the video.
What about Angel though? With a soul he's a morally good guy and without one he's a vicious killing machine
that's because soulless spike actually *wanted* to become better and thus not just welcomed the soul but even sought it out, whereas angelus never asked for one and when he got cursed, angel sloooowly started his character growth [but even with a soul he went to darla first and tried to live the angelus life only to discover that it made him feel horrible, so he dipped and just tried to survive (he kinda wanted to die but also couldn't find the guts for it). he only started on his moral growth journey after seeing buffy for the first time and deciding to turn his life around] meanwhile, angelus didn't want to have any of that shit and the first chance he got he went back to killing people.
basically, soulless spike at the end of his arc is a monster who wants to be a man, making ensouled spike simply a man. whereas angelus is simply a monster with no interest in being a man, and freshly ensouled angel(us) does not want to be a man yet, but because at that point he's basically liam who's reliving angelus' deeds as his own, and while liam was a terrible dick, he never really enjoyed others' suffering, so he can no longer be simply a monster. for spike the divide between spike and william is not as big, because when the soul came back, spike had already stepped away from the monster he became with the whirlwind
and objectively, if spike hadn't gotten chipped, he would likely never want his soul back. even wanting buffy would not change that, he'd either die fighting her or kill his third slayer n unlike with previous two, he'd probably turn buffy (and who knows what relationship dynamic would that be). i'm not saying this because i think spike is horrible or sumth, i love him. but without the chip (or some other turn of the plot) scoobies would never let him get closer, spike wouldn't get attached to buffy (and the scoobies) and so he'd never ever have the reason to wanna be a better person.
He die to save others may live that selfless act leaves a mark, If he didn't have one before he dose now! That a huge act was made out of love out and love come from one who has a heart and soul!
If only Spike had the gem of amara in the final battle...
Conclusion, to quote Terminator 2: if Spike, a Vampire can learn to become a hero, maybe we can too.
I don’t really agree with the idea of saying something negative somehow is a lack of morality.
Agreed. Criticism is the fuel for personal growth. If you go through life hearing nothing but "Attaboy!" You will never be forced to face your failings.
The bathroom -almost-rape scene always gave me chills. I wanted to reach through the screen and grab Spike, tell him NO, this isn't the way...I don't believe he could have raped her but goddamn, talk about a scene that makes your heart race.
This brings back memories. When it was first airing, I was an active user on a message board called All Things Philosophical on Buffy the Vampire Slayer arguing about whether or not a soulless person could be moral in the show. Sarah's analysis does a great job encapsulating my feelings on the subject. Also, I'd like to mention that the writers were having similar arguments at the time.
I have my own take on it I developed without outside fandom influence if you would be interested in hearing it.
I LOVE the character of Spike!!
This is an amazing analysis! Appreciate you making it! 😁
Why was there such a stark difference between Angel and Spike when they got souls back? There was an Angel comic from years back that suggested that when Angels was cursed with a soul, the soul wasn’t Liam’s. It’s why he went from layabout to hero, but this has never been followed up on.
Licardo Gwira - never read the comics for Angel, but that’s interesting. Dunno how I personally feel about it if it were true though, lol.
I guess it would just take away from the idea behind the curse and Angel’s arc. He went from a lazy drunk, to an evil soulless monster, to someone who realized what happened to him and the consequences of his actions.
After rewatching Angel a couple times, there are episodes from his past that contradict what the comic suggests. His story is basically an addict becoming sober and righting the wrongs he’s done to others. Since it’s a hard quest, he backtracks often. Basically going back to how he acted as Liam; killing and drinking from an innocent human, allowing a demon a feed on people and “kill” him at the hotel, putting aside his friends to ruin Darla and Dru, and etc.
I guess that’s why I ended up liking Angel’s arc and series, despite not liking broody and overly dark characters. Lol. His story wasn’t about the path to redemption, it was him realizing that redemption is a state of being.
Okay, done with the ramble. Might try to pick up the Angel comics now.
HC Iapetus It was a mini series from years back. I’ll have to look up the name. Basically the curse used on Angel was intended for another vampire, but because of Angelus feeding on the gypsies daughter he used it on him instead. This vampire goes after Angel because he feels Angels soul is his. After he and Angel fight and before he dies he says to Angel “do you really believe that’s Liam’s soul” It was only mentioned that one time and never revisited again, as far as I know.
Licardo Gwira - thank you for the description. I’ll have to look it up too. I usually love mini series for comics; canon or one shots, usually like them.
I like how tv shows and comics try to add more drama to characters dealing with the past, but only end up raising more questions for the audience/readers. With this scenario, it raises the question of how the gypsy spell works. How do they target the soul and who it belongs to? Cause when Willow performed the spell, it worked, but was it Liam’s soul? Or someone else’s?
It’s not something to keep anyone up all night, but it’s certain fun for me to think about these things. Lol
When Liam became Angelus, he was not a good person to begin with. When Angelus became Angel, he pretty much lived in his guilt over his vampiric life and strove o do eternal penance for it. When William became Spike/William the blood, he just let himself be evil and angry. Then he fell in love with Biffy, in more than one incarnation of love. By the end, he was wanting to be a good man, the way she treated him once the chip was in, because she saw him as one. Drucilla was just a crazy lady ho became a crazy vampire, so her actions pretty much said she didn't expect anything but a crazy vampire from Spike.
Because Angel was CURSED with a soul and Spike SOUGHT out a soul. Totally different men/monsters with totally different reactions to the same event. That's the point. The fact Spike sought it out showed that he never really needed a soul in the first place.
I've always thought spike left to remove his feelings for buffy at season 6, so he could pay her back for all the heart ache. But he phrased his wish to the trial wrong instead of granting what he wanted the trial gave spike a soul because it's something that buffy needed for the next arc in the series.
According to Joss, he always intended to get a soul...but they wanted people to think otherwise to give it that shock effect
Welcome to the amazing world of “plot twists”
In screenplay language it's called a mislead or a "red herring" - the viewer is given ambiguous signals so that there's shock value in how it really turns out later. Joss and James have said that Spike was fully intending to get his soul back for Buffy. The scenes were written with intentional misguidance to make the viewer uncertain what was going on.
Where does this come from? Spike says several times over in s7 that he meant to get the soul, always did, that he wanted to be a man, he wanted to be hers and be loved. How do people miss something repeated so often? If you think about it, it makes no sense either. Spike didn't need the chip out to kill Buffy, it already didn't work on her. He could have already fought and killed her if he wanted!
I think the r scene is coupled with both the fact of not having a soul and him being in abusive relationships in the past and understanding how to act properly.
Spike is the definition of someone that can change and cure for them more than ever care for them themselves that empathy and understanding eventually comes to show a character and that is going to try something that and make sure someone else's happiness more important but is also desperate for love probably can find it
I have been reading The Complete Signet Classic Shakespeare, and in the introduction they talk about how popular plays about knights fighting monsters and becoming better for their lady loves were during Shakespeare's youth. It was so popular and cliched that Cervantes wrote Don Quixote partly as a satire of the whole genre.
The point is Spike is embodying a very old ideal. That loving someone or something and being loved in turn makes us better irrespective of your gender.
i had no audio from 12:59 to 15:26. i checked it 3x, even trying *captions* , which weren't available. If this was a *copyright strike* , that would be a shame, bc if ever there was a *video* made "for educational purposes", *this is it* . You had graphs and charts, and "BUFFY", (a show *studied on college* campuses..) so i'm not sure why YOU would be hit w/ a strike. 😯