The 'True' Lesson of Strength
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- Опубликовано: 27 авг 2024
- This is the true lesson of strength by Kreia.
There doesn't seem to be a video on this specific choice selection, so I have decided to be the first to upload it to youtube. Most people misunderstood Kreia and her true test and lesson to the player: to see if you would casually accept power regardless of its source. From all the videos I've watched that uploaded this segment, they seem to have failed Kreia completely and utterly by blindly accepting this 'gift' like any other reward. As such, I have taken upon myself to show the world a segment that most people have likely never seen while playing Knights of the Old Republic 2.
Watch my video on the philosophy of Kreia if you wish to understand Kreia:
• The Philosophy of Krei...
Watch my video on the philosophy of Kreia if you wish to understand her completely:
ruclips.net/video/-Z0S0Z8lUTg/видео.html
This is one of the best videos I have ever seen on youtube. Thank you for putting the time into making this.
Thanks.
I have some questions about Kreia from your video. As the jedi and sith are dependent on the force, is kreia creating echos to manipulate those who dependent on it? You referred to Kreia as being similar to Marchiavelli, so to add to the question, when Kreia uses echos in the force is this act and advise you offers something similar to Marchiavelli? Thank you.
Oh, I just used Machiavelli as a synonym for manipulative, as I also named Shakespeare in that sentence. It doesn't entirely have anything to do with Machiavelli's book the Prince on ruling through pure logic, dominance and fear.
I understand. I then have another question on Kriea. I'm trying to understand the nuance of Kriea advising the player to have power that is not dependent on something else. In a way we are all to an extent limited and dependent on another. For example if Kriea has succeeded in creating a synthesis then force sensitives would be dependent on the exile for this philosophy. Hence we can't always escape being dependent on 'something'. I understand that if you are dependent on something for power then that becomes a weakness for if you are robbed of this external thing that you are dependent on then you become powerless. Yet I suspect I might be missing something so if I am would it be okay if you could elaborate on how Kriea things one ought to not be dependent on other things? Thanks
I love that line near the end, "Always be on your guard-- otherwise you may learn something." A rare glimpse of humor from Kreia.
The Goofball well what if you want to learn something?
I liked that, too!
Oh my god I can't even understand Kreia's JOKES!
Little moments of humanity like that made Kreia feel like more than just a mentor but also a member of the team like everyone else. Made things that much more painful in the end.
"Always be on your guard-- otherwise you may learn something." What does that mean?????
"Are you testing me to see if I still have any ties to the Jedi Code?" - Said the creepy, yellow-eyed, ashen-faced, white-haired devil of a man
"Lol, no." - Kreia
Ahhhhh then you are learning
I know you just made a joke, but...
The Sith are really just Jedi of a different kind. They define themselves entirely through their adversity towards the Jedi. The entire Sith Order, the entire religion, is built around the idea of destroying the Jedi and that, after this goal has been reached, everything will be glorious. They are wrong, of course, even if the Jedi certainly are deserving of destruction - but the death of all Jedi everywhere is not a cure-all for the ailments of the Galaxy. That this is so is shown whenever the Sith were victorious. Whenever they had a Golden Age, it didn't last, undone by their own infighting. Without an enemy to unite against, the Sith are bereft of any true goal and meaning and thus obliterate themselves. In a strange way, the Sith very much need the Jedi to justify their own existence, as the striving for power alone without a directed focus leads to nothing, as we can see in Kotor 2. Nihilus and Sion, so complete in their victory over the Jedi, built nothing, left nothing behind. The end of the Jedi means also an end of the Sith philosophy - albeit a terrible end that leaves a lot of destruction in it's wake before disappearing. In this sense, the Sith and the Jedi are the same. They are both dogmatic adherers to an idea - one who defend the idea, and one who wish to destroy this idea. So in a way, both adhere to it, but from different directions. As such, the Sith cannot ever be truly disconnected from the Jedi. If they were, they'd cease to be Sith and become something new entirely.
@@DraculaCronqvist In SMTIV:A, in order to draw Yahweh out, you need to defeat both Lucifer and Merkabah. The chaos and the order. FYI, firearms (not blasters) can kill most Force users, thereby reducing the Force's monopoly on power, at least in terms of combat power.
@@DraculaCronqvist the sith and jedi are both extreme branches of a religion, both squabbling cousins whose conflicts cause the galaxy to bleed
@@DarkAdonisVyers
Can firearms actually kill Force users more effectively than blasters though? Leaving aside cases like surprise attacks and heavy artillery (which would the same for blaster type weapons) - it seems to me that defending from bullets would just require a specialized form of TK that most Force users are capable of using in some form.
And since Jedi's defence comes in part from precognition, allowing them to sence the attacks coming - it's not that much of a stretch for them to be able to create a telekinetic cushion to sap the bullet's kinetic energy.
>when you realize you never learned what Kreia was trying to teach you in all these years
Feels bad man.
Better late than never, right?
its never to late to redo the game again.
Then again, Lorgar, you and your Legion never learned that lesson either; you draw such power from Chaos only to let it enslave you. No wonder most say that Konrad and Alpharius were stronger Primarchs...
You have failed her, completely and utterly.
but realizing it now.....that's what matters. Disney will fog over these teachings. we must remember the new shit is never going to teach us or make us think. not like kreia...or palpatine. not even the jedi will be the same. but never forget..............or forgive
I just realized, Kreia's lesson here is something the Exile has always known but never realized.
This was the Exile's choice at Malachor V, the Exile walked away from power, a choice no one understood.
And this is one of the reasons why Kreia is so intrigued by our character.
In a way, Kreia never really teaches her philosophy, she makes you rediscover who the Exile always was.
Correct. Kreia even says, after escaping Paragus II, to not let the Sith discover what makes the Exile special before they find out for themselves. And it is only when the player recognizes Kreia's philosophy that they learn the core importance of the Exile. The truth of the Exile is made blatant when confronted by the Jedi Masters on Dantooine.
That's why she calls it the choice of Malachor V. Everyone else turned to join Revan because they could not turn away from power. They let him rule them, which is not true strength, even if they gained a bunch of powers in the process. Because all that power is not for them to achieve their own goals, but Revan's.
Following Revan at the end is not actually Kreia's preference for your final choice, because as a character, your Exile would kind of have regressed into who she was before the war ("I will follow Revan, as I did before") instead of being her own person.
@@The.RUclipsr.with.no.Name. Since i don't know how to contact you I am just gonna reply to one of your comments I have a minor question/clarification
If the exile is light side does that make him/her weak since he still a slave to the jedi code?
@@CryonicCy It depends on *you* and how you see it. If you play the game always being a goody-two-shoes 'just because it's what the Jedi do' then yes, they are a slave to the code. If you examine all possibilities, think about your choices and follow the light side, then they are not a slave. The point is independent judgment and making choices. A slave cannot choose. The Sith obviously emphasizes the importance of personal responsibility and choice but they have to dabble in the Dark Side which corrupts the self.
@@The.RUclipsr.with.no.Name. Thank you for answering
“To believe in an ideal, is to be willing to betray it”. The writing in this game is amazing
josh smith But what does that mean though? How do you interpret that? I've pondered this, and I can't find any legitimate meaning that makes sense.
WeArePSU632 betrayal is disloyalty. Disloyalty is a half of the dichotomy of loyalty and disloyalty. One cannot exist without the other. Without potential of betrayal there can be no loyalty. Without potential of betrayal you cannot *choose* to remain loyal.
Without being willing to betray your ideal you cannot *choose* not to do so. Without such willingness you do not believe in the ideal, you are possessed by it, a slave to it.
@@happyvalleykid6324 An ideal is something that you can never atain or achive. It's something you strive for, but never reach. If you trully believe that something IS an ideal, you also know that you cannot ever reach it, so you can, from time to time, brake the "code" of you ideal, if you deem it necessary.
What she essentially is saying is that if you want to be a true Jedi, you must also be willing to think and act like a Sith if needed. Or if you are a king and you want to bring peace, you must be able to be ruthless and fierce to ensure that you can keep having power (so that you have the power to ensure peace). Or a good officer in the military needs to be able to send people under their command to a certain death (knowingly) to ensure the safety of all the others under their command, etc etc.
@@Mukation I disagree. An ideal is attainable. This notion of it being something beyond reach is not one I concur with.
As you said, its a dichotomy, you can choose both at all times implicit on the escence of loyalty.
What is more praisable tho?
Someone who always was good? Or someone bad that it is?
This game is on another level of intelligent, immersive and deep story telling, yeah kotor 1 was amazing but kotor 2 even in its unfinished state is an imperfect masterpiece
Yeah, KOTOR II was a masterpiece, eventhough it was unfinished. When i played it back in the day it was so painfully obvious that the game wasn't finished, yet it was still so fucking great.
KOTOR II played like a great book for me. I could feel myself becoming so enwrapped in the story, the characters, and defining how my character acted. It’s seriously in a league of its own, I don’t think there’s a single game out there that can compare to the absolute depth it has. We can only pray that maybe one day Disney will bless us all and have both KOTORs remastered and the second one finished and patched up, for now the restoration mod will have to do.
LordGroyper The fuck
@@rainy7106, Planescape Torment
@LordGroyper no you dont... people often claim that as a way to make themselves feel more intelligent. like the rick and morty fans who claim that about their favorite show. kotor 2 has a very deep script that toys with many concepts. but you do not need to be highly intelligent to understand or even catch onto its themes
"Because raw strength is nothing compared to the power of one's will."
My God...
Funnily enough, our submission to dogmatism is ingrained into our language. "My God" refers to a supernatural deity that people are supposed to submit to, to give themselves to fully, and to receive absolution and strength from. God as a concept denies a person full access to the power of his own will.
@@roadent217 I think you'd enjoy the book "The Magic of Psychic Power" written by Joseph David Schwartz. It's out of print but I got a copy on Ebay. It's amazing.
@@roadent217 its funny
Saying "my god" and other mentions of god is consdiered bad
"Do not speak lords name in vain"
So from certain point of view
Saying "my god" could be an insult to the christian god
And thats exactly why you should, say "oh my god" to every mundane thing
Cause fuck the guy who made "pain" and "fear" a thing that exists
He also made the devil too
So you cannot say "devil made all the bad things" and make it all seem better
Sorry, i detest Christianity with passion.
@@HellishSpoon you're a little incorrect: the christian god (and no other god) cannot be insulted. God is god, you can't reach it with stupid things like that. When someone tells you otherwise, they just try to manipulate you.
@@roadent217 Islam is restraint and bondage- the Bible teaches otherwise= how to transcend past the flesh
Better to be reliant on one's own strength rather be a slave of another's will. Transcend my friends!
MisterAwestasia And yet you still have to rely on your party member's strengths to assist you.
@@0816M3RC By mid game nothing can touch you, so no.
0816 M3RC there’s a reason the Exile was written as having an innate ability to bond with those around her through the Force and ends up drawing upon their strength and life force (the latter of which occurs upon the death of her enemies). The Jedi Council views that as a quality among the Sith assassins who’ve learned to absorb the life force of others, when in reality, that’s just proof of how in tune with the Force the Exile is - the energy field of the universe that permeates every atom and living being.
@@0816M3RC to utilise another's skills, talents, and strengths is not the same as being reliant on them.
Chesterton talked about you:
"That publisher who thought that men would get on if they believed in themselves, those seekers after the Superman who are always looking for him in the looking-glass, those writers who talk about impressing their personalities instead of creating life for the world, all these people have really only an inch between them and this awful emptiness. Then when this kindly world all round the man has been blackened out like a lie; when friends fade into ghosts, and the foundations of the world fail; then when the man, believing in nothing and in no man, is alone in his own nightmare, then the great individualistic motto shall be written over him in avenging irony. The stars will be only dots in the blackness of his own brain; his mother's face will be only a sketch from his own insane pencil on the walls of his cell. But over his cell shall be written, with dreadful truth, "He believes in himself.""
2:19-2:45
What she says here Reminds me of a scene from Darth Bane: Path of Destruction. Where Bane is poisoned and prolonged his death by killing a family. He killed the three sons one by one and the father asked Bane why he made him watch before he killed him. Bane did it because he was feeding on the man’s pain, sadness and anger to make himself strong enough to keep going.
I think what Keria is saying is that power gained through others, especially the suffering of others isn’t what true strength is. And you won’t know what true strength is until you found it within yourself.
I love the way Kreia speaks, it's just so epic
2:05 - "And the hunger you feel does not stem from Hanharr" Now I understand what that means, 10 years playing this game and you still learn something. There is no other character so well written as Kreia.
Well, wait, what does it mean?
@@ArvelDreth The Exile is a wound in the force like Nihilus. They feel similar hungers ,Nihilus eats force sensitives and sometimes planets trying to quench it but never works.
@@Aintnoonewatching but unlike Nihilus, the Exile controls the hunger, instead of letting it overtake him/her
@@raijyn2452 Thus rejecting the strength that is not her own, the choice of Malachor V, reason why she is cut from the force. This game is marvelous.
I just realise how obedient I am. I listened to what she said, but I haven't learned anything.
The Will to deny strength is strength itself.
"Always be on your guard, otherwise you may learn something" That is beautify written line that perfectly incapsulates Kreia's mindset.
After all these years I still never really understood what Kreia was trying to teach us. After watching this, was the main idea just to be independent? Rely on your strength alone and no on else?
Also, HOLY SHIT! A KoTOR 2 video in 2017? Yes please.
It's coming...
But the lesson Kreia wanted to teach is to rely on your own strength as the source of your power. Not only that, but to think for yourself and to live for your self by valuating your life.
" rely on your own strength as the source of your power"
*"In my mind a true friend never relies on another's dream. The man, who would be my friend, must have his own reason for living, beyond me."*
" Not only that, but to think for yourself and to live for your self by valuating your life."
*"And he should put his heart and soul into protecting his dream. He should never hesitate to defend it, even against me."*
BEEEEERRRRRSSEEEEEERRRKKEEEEEERRRR
Problem is that Griffith read Nietzsche wrong. He was totally full of shit and didn't realize the ties that empowered him. Its to draw power from others, but not be dependent on it.
If you rely on strenght that is not your own then your power can be stripped from you -leaving you naked and surprised at no longer having what you thought was yours, but if you're the source of your own greatness than nobody but you can take that away.
i always find it interesting how satisfying it is to feel her "approval" on your answers, she would never say it outloud if its isnt needed and the only way to know is in her demeanor and tone, it is a form of manipulation but also a way to probe you, she, aside of her end goal, wasnt just trying to teach you, but also studying you as well, to see the answers the exile came up with at malachor v and how are they been carrying on.... and now i want to play the game again XD
There's something quite remarkable about Kreia's actions during the "You have failed me" dialogue, towards the end she purposely stabs herself with her lightsaber to prove the point on how the exile's reliance on his bond truly crippled him/her. The effect was immediate and obviously painful.
And in the "You were afraid" dialogue, she didn't drain the life forces of the Jedi Masters-- she disconnected from the Force. *They died of SHOCK.* She demonstrated the exact same point-- the Force was so deeply ingrained within them that their bodies gave up when disconnected, almost like an immediate, deadly withdrawal. They relied on it, like a drug.
True strength does not exist outside oneself. Another example of this lesson is in the Dark Knight Rises, when Bane casually put his hand on the shoulder of a blustering Daggett, and calmly asked him, "Do you feel in charge?"
Hehehehehehehehehehehe.
HEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHE
Maybe you should watch my video on the philosophy of Kreia.
Just saw it, mwahahahahahaha.....
"I'm always testing you, never forget that. Always be on your gaurd, otherwise you my learn something." Sassy as all heck!
I feel like the masterminds that wrote those dialogs, thought about how to go so drastically deeper into the understanding of the Force, could have made every project post 'The Clone Wars' 1000000000x better. I mean where are those guys? How are the Kotor fans the only one truly acknowledging the brillance of this script, the consistence between Kotor 1 and this one, the perfect dialogues, the constant struggles it gives us? I mean THAT was where Star Wars was supposed to go after George finished the Skywalker Saga.
"Perfection and power are overrated. I think you're very wise to choose happiness and love" Quote by Iroh from the series Avatar the Last Airbender
I have been playing the KOTOR 2 for 10 years... I never new that option... Intresting one!
Konstantinos Vasilakakos it's one of the most important lessons of Kreia: to not rely on anyone but yourself. You can use others as a tool, but too many rely on those around us and that is a weakness
Yes my friend. For me Kreia has given some of the coolest lessons for life. You have to be strong by your self. If you depent on others to give you strenght you will always be weak. It's us that made thinks go on. not the others..
The flipside to this philosophy is the idea that one's strength is limited to one's own potential. Lose a hand and you'll never play the piano, lose a leg and you'll never compete against Usain Bolt.
However, by relying on others, or more accurately including others, your strength is increased, often more than the sum of the parts.
To be individually powerful is to be solitarily powerful. It's a strength that can't be taken from you, but it's also incredibly limited, single voice in crowd and all that.
I think you can bend that and say situations like loosing a leg etc requires you to personally adapt without anyone's help. Again, the betrayal of an ideal such as sport. Loose a leg, you betray your lifes work. Though in this, you can find resolve if you are Willing to find it. It's all in regards to the strength of the individual and all links it, no matter the scenario.
You can still play piano loosing one hand, Captain Cook use his hook :), what is strength? It is the power to overcome your limit by yourself
I loved that in Kotor 2, it wasn’t just killing enemies that granted experience, but even dialogue and conversation could increase your stats.
And that's is Kreia's true lesson. It's not just about endless slaughter to gain exp lol.
In Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines killing gives you nothing. You gain experience by accomplishing or finding something.
And of course there's Planescape: Torment where Intelligence+Wisdom is the best build even for a fighter (combat is easy), because thinking, discovering and remembering is the most important part of the game.
This parallels Luke’s to turn away from the dark side. To turn away from the strength he could’ve used to destroy Vader and the emperor. Because he remembered the lesson in strength that yoda gave him years ago. He will know the good from the bad when he is passive.
I've read that KOTOR II flips the morality and general philosophy on it's head. Now I can see how.
I'm not a Star Wars fan, yet I still bought KOTOR II simply because I know Obsidian can make a truly interesting and worthwhile game out of even the most "mainstream" media (like they did with DnD in Planescape and NWN II : Mask of Betrayer)
I'm gonna watch the Star Wars movies, play through KOTOR I and then play this.
Awesome. And yes, Kotor 2 does flip the morality on its head, but only further reinforces the general philosophy that was already present in Star Wars.
After watching the Star Wars movies and playing through Kotor 1 and 2, do watch my video on Kreia do understand what I mean.
I just watched your excellent Monster analysis, and have put KOTOR video on on my Watch Later list.
I'll be sure to watch it.
Cool.
Also, don't forget to install the Restoration Mod for Kotor 2 once you get to playing it. It completes the game.
Hemang Chauhan watch the first 6 ;)
@@The.RUclipsr.with.no.Name. too bad TLJ attempted a deconstruction just to surprise us but it only said Jedi bad and any rise of light rises darkness too, shit that doesn't make sense, and then it doesn't reinforce anything, it's just Luke being nihilistic, I really expected some KOTOR II level storytelling when Luke said it's time for the Jedi to end
huh...yeah, usually I just took the strength bonus.. did not know you could get a wisdom bonus. Kotor 1 and 2 are both full of awesome dialogue and philosophy, I'm glad you're making and sharing these videos ! :)
"Then Saul dressed David in his own tunic. He put a coat of armor on him and a bronze helmet on his head. David fastened on his sword over the tunic and tried walking around, because he was not used to them.
“I cannot go in these,” he said to Saul, “because I am not used to them.” So he took them off. Then he took his staff in his hand, chose five smooth stones from the stream, put them in the pouch of his shepherd’s bag and, with his sling in his hand, approached the Philistine."
Reminds me of Carl Jung's idea of not being afraid of the evil possibilities of "the shadow" nature of the psyche but actually embrace it to actively control it's negative potential and actually gain strength.
Wotan awakens wotan in tbe people
Sutibu San to be good is not a virtue. To *choose* to be good is a virtue. And you can't make such a choice if you don't know another option. So without realising how evil you can be you cannot be virtuous because you cannot make a choice to be a good person.
Now I'm suddenly getting this mental image of how Kreia's persona's power would be through the roof. lol
I don't know source, but one who denies his shadow is merely its slave.
I love how Kreia shows a bit of humor at the end. Great stuff!
Kreia's approval of the Exile being strong by rejecting "strength, which is not her own" is a core precept of Machiavelli. In "the Prince" he mentions that mercenaries are unreliable and one should have "normal" soldiers loyal to oneself and also to prioritize building the foundations of one's own might if the throne was given by someone else ("the rich", other ruler, etc.) and not earned.
Fantastic, Kreia is one of the greatest characters ever made
Thanks Rika-chan !
Nipah~
You know the guy with a Lelouch avatar knows what there talking about when it comes to Amazing characters. Both him and Kreia are at the very top of my list aswell.
I first played this as a child only understanding the game on a surface level. Years later I came back to this game and I realized that Darth Traya hates how the Jedi and the Sith depend so much on the force she becomes so interested in our character because you survived without the connection to the force. She wishes to use you to destroy the Jedi and Sith religions because you are a literal wound in the force. And she hates the force because it has its own will it controls to achieve a balance so their is no free will.
She doesn't wish to destroy Jedi and their "religion" she always wished to enhance Jedi teachings by abandoning their code and being more critical of their own ways. She hates their blind-following of the code, not the Jedi themselves. Meanwhile Sith and their ideologies she completely despises.
Many say that Kreia is a Grey Jedi, but that's not true because of that. She is a sort of anti-hero. The one who seeks the truth, using both sides of the Force in equal manner but remaining in the lighter side. She doesn't neither Jedi or Sith codes, but in the end she does try to kill you if you are Nihilus-like dark lord, and tries to save you if you are a light-sided character.
She is just sort of person to stay in the light, but hating the current system so that code won't restrain someone from doing whatever they feel like doing.
"And that is the choice of Malachor V, at last."
It took me a real minute to process that one, but that's such a *good line* for this moment, and it's an important one for Kreia. Your choice at Malachor V matters a lot to her, and she wants to understand it.
At Malachor, the Exile stared down the mass death and slaughter of the Mass Shadow Generator, they had more choice than they realized, more choice than the Jedi Council realized when they judge you in the Light Side path- your choice wasn't *just* between death and silence from the force. There was another option- to become like Darth Nihilus. To *embrace* that death, that consumption and destruction, and all the horror that came with it. The Exile made the same choice then that this decision tree invokes now- even if they made it instinctually, without understanding.
And Kreia is *fascinated* by that choice. Her hatred of the force sees cutting oneself off from it as an incredible virtue, and yet she doesn't know why you did it, and she spends much of the game trying to understand you so that she can learn why. She *hoped* that you had made this choice as a principled stand, that you had *agreed with her* and proven her right, but in the end, in the Light-Side encounter on Dantooine, she concludes why you really did it, and the scathing disappointment in her voice when she says why is burned into my mind.
*"You were Afraid."*
This choice isn't *really* the same as that one- you aren't making it for the same reasons, rejecting power in this moment consciously, because it will chain you like it chains Hanharr, but Kreia *wants* it to be the same. Wants to believe that you rejected The Force in a moral stand like this one.
I love moment when Kreia is wrong, they're hard to see always, because she's so authoritative and so convinced she's right, but they're there if you hunt for them, and usually tied to her fatal flaw of Pride.
This is my favorite video game, not just star wars game, video game.
Then you'll be happy with the next video I'm working on:
An hour long video detailing Kreia's philosophy and how she was critical of the Star Wars universe (see the description if you wish to see a preview).
Mine too, I love it
I remember how back then everyone complained that games with moral choices were always dumb choices like save the baby or eat the baby good and evil like kotor1 but they get real depth and philosophically choices in Kotor2 and they cry about not understanding it. 😂
Because philosophy is hard and not something most people get into. That is why the developers did the game a disservice IMO by giving bonuses to being light side and dark side but not when being independent. Basically, to min-max the game, you need to pick a side and stick with it. Either always be a saint or always a murderous power hungry maniac. What does that say about Kreia's message? When the developers themselves punishes those that follow it?
@ sounds like you arnt spec'ing your characters correctly if you need to min - max your alignment. Most of the time I play I usually end up so dabbled in the middle due to most responses not sounding realistic, usually get Mira, then loads of Dark side dialogue till lvl15 to prestige to the sith abilities and lock in the name crystal.
Sure if you want to unlock every upgrade go min max but not missing out too much
@@more-reasons6655 I always try to be dark side on Dantooine to get Force Crush which is the coolest power ever. Also Sith Lord + Force Storm is silly effective.
I definitely want to be light side on Nar Shaddaa though, I wouldn't be able to stand being stuck on the ship with Hanharr.
@ It ties into Kreia's message perfectly. Choosing the light side or the dark side makes you a slave to that side of the force, as acting against it will weaken you.
@TomMe the slave part, yes. But Kreia claims it weakens you, and spiritually, it may. That part is not really manifested in the game, though. I mean, you, the human, become a slave, but not the character. That will make the message harder to grasp for many people. It is too "meta", don't you think?
Since I only played the game once to go to the Dark Side enough to get Hanharr, I never saw this scene before. Very, very good and clever, as to be expected from Kreia.
Can’t believe It’s been five years since this video, but I just wanna say I appreciate the videos you made and the conversation sparked as a result
I feel like Kreia has taught me more valuable lessons then my parents ever did and its just a fucking video game lol
You're not the only one my friend
People are asking about the line, "To believe in an ideal is to be willing to betray it..."
There is no belief without disbelief, much like there can be no "good" without "bad". Belief is something that only exists within the context of its opposite.
To have something, to possess, means the possibility to lose it or otherwise dispossess it.
And especially, as Kreia would say, to *forsake* it, *abandon* it.
And to extrapolate: To live means the possibility (and inevitability) of death. "To be" means the possibility "not to be"--to *cease* to be.
But that's the thing... why must I be willing to betray an ideal? Why must I be willing to do away with thing I believed in? To me it makes no sense. When you're presented with a problem within the ideal, you sit back and try to think of a way to not make it a problem anymore, or just keep going despite the problem. Why do I have to abandon the ideal? So many people try to explain the line to me, but they never tell me why and personally it's gotten to a point where I think most people don't know why and are simply saying all of the explanation to sound smart.
@@hysterical5408 You have to be willing to betray it, even if you don't, so that the ideal has no power over you. It's simple, really. If you are never willing to betray that ideal, that means that whoever created that ideal in the first place has power over you (in the sense that the dude is probably dead but you're here acting out what he scribbled down somewhere, think religion).
You don't have to betray it right now, or perhaps never. But you have to be willing to toss it aside if it makes sense to do so, that's how you can truly enact your will instead of someone else's.
@@bryangan2224 that sounds more like a lack of any sort of commitment to an ideal if you have to be willing to toss it just like that. If that's the case, you'll go from one ideal to another, never truly believing in anything. That is something I just cannot agree with. If there was something wrong with the ideal I follow, I will go out of my way to try and fix that problem and to make that ideal better. I recognize that no ideal is perfect and they never will be, but I would much rather believe in something and try it mend any faults in it than be a philosophy hobo.
@@hysterical5408 What makes you think commitment to an ideal is a good thing? It just makes you a slave to whoever thought of that ideal, because you cannot find it within you to let it go should you need to. Adaptability is true strength, and true freedom, because you can do the best thing at the best time when needed.
@@bryangan2224 Adaptability isn't true freedom whatsoever. You adapt, or you die. You have no choice there. You don't adapt because you want to, you adapt because you are forced to, being adaptive only makes you a "slave" to the natural order, to time and your environment. There is no true strength, there is no one right way in this kind of question. To think there is only makes you as close minded and blind as the people you think you are less free than you. Commitment, though is a choice. You commit yourself to an ideal only because you truly believe in it, you think it is right. Unlike adaptability. You are not forced to commit. To think it is bad simply because it does not allow you to continue being an ideal leech is disturbing to be.
Kotor I and II were such great games. Shame they never made anything more in this universe after Kotor II
well they released a book that follows what happened to Revan and the Exile after the end of KOTOR II but butcher's KOTOR II story. EA and Bioware released an mmo called Star Wars: the Old Republic(SWTOR) which most KOTOR I & II fans consider heresy because of how they handle Revan & the Exile (or in the exiles case not handle at all and instead just killed off). So they did continue this universe but no KOTOR III.
@@Jessica-pg8tf And KoTOR III is being delayed constantly by EA as well. Oh well, if Obsidian or OG BioWare ain't making it, then it won't live up to the predecessors.
Oh VAU! What a brilliant twist that was there! Thank you!
The craziest, in a very good way, quality of writing in the lines of this game. It is like an introductory course to philosophy. Not just Nietzsche, but dialectics as well.
Kreia: OH MY GOD, WHAT HAPPENED TO YOUR FACE?!
Exile: I, ah, embraced the Dark Side...
Kreia: You have been smoking again, have you?
Garmagic2yFhenrakh9 he’s just trying to forget malacor five
[Warning: This comment contains Symbolism]
Finally someone who supports my Theory! Dark Side are just the Smokers in Schools. Jedi are the Righteous Teachers who Never got me, Smokers are the Dark Side People Who act like they're cool and Edgy. I was just The Guy who walked on every side. Because why niche oneself in School!? I hate Videogames but Kotor 2 Is just a hidden Love of mine. People think Playing games is fun? Yea sure Grind them Diablo Clones while I'm getting lectured by Kreia for smoking again trying to forget Malachor 5.
@@namesareforfriends4552 I suppose you meant that you don't hate all videogames, rather, dislike videogames that do not provide you with thought-provoking material (which are most of videogames) letting you reflect on new interesting concepts and personally improve based on this (of which KOTOR2 is a great example)?
Then allow me to make a few recommendations. A few games I found interesting because of their themes were The Red Strings Club, Night in The Woods, LISA, and Persona 5.
Persona 5 may look like a typical animeh game, but it's reliance on Jungian psychology, mythology, symbolism and great execution of the game's message makes it stand out (though it still has plenty of animeh moments).
Night in the Woods is a walking simulator that may seem to some like a cute-looking game about teenage rants, but the game delves into the stagnation of the US' Rust Belt and how it affects its different generations, mainly expressed through the youth's feeling of hopelessness and the old people's memories of how it used to be better.
LISA is an amazing story about a broken man trying to do the right thing and losing himself through his journey.
The Red Strings Club is a pixel-art cyberpunk visual novel/quest game that discusses freedom and happiness, one's own will and security.
I find all of these games amazing, and, who knows, maybe you too will enjoy some of them. :)
There's a dialogue in KotOR2 on Dantooine, where indeed one NPC asks about your face, and you deflect by something like "I've been traveling to the shittiest places in the galaxy, I wonder what your face would've looked like after that".
And just like that, Im going to play this game.
I'm still hoping for a Kotor 3 before i die...alongside Warcraft 4....sigh...
only problem is that bioware will probably make it
EA owns the rights now. I would rather wait more than 20 years for the rights to go to another hands.
We'll probably get an FPS or something like that.
Rest in peace, friend.
And Half-Life Thr-*OH WAIT*
i always did this because +2 to wisdom is so important when i'm spamming out force lightnings lol. no one will be resisting my true strength let me tell you.
Machiavelli constantly said that mercenaries were useless because all they cared about were the gold that they received from you and will betray you to the highest bidder, and he suggests that one must create an army from their own nation because they will care about the results and effects of your battles and are less likely to betray you because they are loyal to you, not your gold.
May not be connected to this but it is somewhat applied in relying on one's own strength, a nation's army formed from it's own citizens in this example
how can Kreia be this awesome!?!?!?
I actually got this dialogue back in 2009 when I purchased this game as well as the first for my Star Wars adoring friend. By then, I was so intimate with the characters and responses I had seen, there was nothing else left to find. It made me happy and sad.
In a sense, this is telling us to let go. Lucas really is a visionary.
The first rule of Power
'Know that power alone is not enough. You must master discipline, courage, creativity and clarity before you can master power.'
Yoooo, who said this?
@@Whodjathink myself, after reading the Dresden Files, a few warhammer 40k books and listening to this video I made a few conclusions about Power. After all I'm not a wizard.
@@cypher4783 I see I see! I think that too is also the lesson Kreia teaches. To come to our own conclusions from the information the world gives us
I still remember this lesson almost 15 years after playing this game.
3:15 - gives me chills :-)
Ahhhhhh...and that is the choice of malecor V
"When you suffer, call upon that hunger and the beast shall be that upon which your will may draw strength" that touches my soul
I've been waiting for this!
"It is because he is not ready to give up his ties yet - It is much like Jedi who will not give their code. It is to surrender yourself, to make yourself a slave to a teaching or belief that makes it so that belief will always rule you."
I've been this person. I've met people like this in my life. It's not a healthy mindset. It keeps your from growing and learning and makes you an unpleasant person to be around at times.
I can only hope that I will continue to be willing to 'give up my code' as it were. To learn and modify my beliefs as necessary and become a better version of myself.
Could there be a just, good teaching that's worth believing in?
You sure as hell earned a sub Mate.This Channel is fantastic.
Looking very much forward to vids in the Future.
This is the best option for force wielders. My playthrough right now is a dark side consular I prestiged into sith lord, and I cheese most battles with force storm. More wisdom is way better for my build than some strength and constitution.
The more of Kreia I hear, the more certain I am she isn't talking about star wars, or anything fictional.
to belive an ideal is to be willing to betray it, if you are never prepared to betray an ideal then you are a slave to it and it is not your choice to belive it because it controlls you
I'm here for my daily dose of wisdom to face the day.
What I also like about this is that it doesn't necessarily oppose the idea of having allies and companions, it's why Kreia tells you to actively accept certain companions or allies. It's because having allies can be a boon, necessary in some cases but the important thing is to never *rely* on those allies. As soon as you do, your survival is based entirely on them which is why Kreia says to *rely* on your own power (and relying on your own power doesn't necessarily mean to actively reject all power from others, so long as you don't become dependent). And that's why I agree with Kreia that killing the force was the correct option. If it was a tool to be used than I doubt she would have any issues but the fact that it *has* a will and forces it upon others means that no matter how powerful or great a sith, jedi, or anything in between becomes, they will all live or die according to the force's will and that's why I always agreed with Kreia there.
This game has some of the greatest writing I’ve ever experienced in a video game.
Best conversations in Any game ever. Masterpiece
Aside from the Mass Effect series this may be the only rpg that I actually listened to every single dialogue instead of spacebarring my way through.
Faved for coming back to later.
I think I got a new favourite force-sensitive character. Sharing the same spot as Luke Skywalker whom a friend of mine describes as "The most human Jedi".
"To believe in an ideal is to be willing to betray it."
God damn. I'd never thought about it that way.
People are definitely right when they say this is the best-written piece of Star Wars media.
I wish this lesson was still available for a light-side exile, it still is very important. Hanharr could be replaced with Mira.
If every interesting dialogue was available for the light side, there wouldn't be a point in playing dark side. I prefer it the way they made it.
2:00 That second choice always cracks me up.
"To believe in an ideal, is to be willing to betray it", how so?
Watch my other video on Kreia to get a full understanding how.
But to believe in an ideal means that you must seek out its opposite to strengthen it. If you don't, you become dogmatic, stagnant, and eventually, that ideal will die from lack of growth. So if you believe in an ideal, betray it; find its opposite so that you may strengthen it.
Ok then, what does it mean to believe in an ideal? What purpose does the ideal serve if you are willing to betray it anyway?
To believe in an ideal means to believe in an ideology; a system of belief. Like the Jedi and Sith. Or any system of morality or philosophy.
If you believe in any philosophy, many choose to never find what critics say, believing their truth is the only truth. Being dogmatic makes you blind, a slave, incapable of seeing the truth or to strengthen what you believe.
Yes that is true, but my question still stands: if you question your own beliefs in order to strengthen them, were you really adhering to them in the first place?
Yes. The opposite question can also be said. Were you really adhering to an ideology in the first place if you blindly follow everything it says?
kreia.....my master. I will never forget.
I could listen to Kreia's lectures all day.
It is to surrender yourself, to become a slave to a teaching or belief that makes it so belief will always rule you.
I keep rewatching clips of her for remembering things I have forgotten, and for asmr lol
Having watched your Philosphy of Kreia video, it cemented my desire to get a copy of KOTOR II. Wait for me, Master Kreia. For i will come for you, so that i may learn from you.
Those who seek power simply for power's sake always win out over those who seek power for the sake of their ideals. This is the flaw in Kreia's entire ideology. This is why she failed.
This is one of the less esotheric lessons she teaches. Hanharr's strength and viciousness are not a strength, they are a weakness. Because they informs his decisions rather than the other way around. It betrays him and will betray the Exile in turn.
So why is going full Dark Side so bad? By her own philosophy, taking and seizing power for yourself as much as possible fits right into this lesson. And of course make it all about your own power and no one else's of course. But tyrannical rule/destruction of everything still works if you do so by your own will/strength.
If you want an answer to that, I recommend watching my video The Foundations of Star Wars that examines the nature of the Force. The short answer is that going to the Dark Side is addictive and makes you prone to act irrationally and desire power for its own sake, like a drug.
@@The.RUclipsr.with.no.Name. I guess my biggest problem with Nietzschian philosophy is everyone always assumes they'd be the Ubermensch. They never consider they'd only be the people that tries to stop or supports them, or worse: they're just the Last Man.
@@AxelXGabriel Basically, it's like people who play video games with a shallow sense of morality. In a "good" playthrough, they'll always pick the "good" options. In an "evil" playthrough, they'll always pick the "evil" options. Never do they cast aside such falsehoods and pick the smart options.
@@DarkAdonisVyers Honestly, that's just people being lazy. Because to do otherwise would be to assume the game even has more choices to explore. Ofcourse, as we now know, the world building of KoTOR II was exceptional, giving us all shades of grey, and deconstructs the black and white.
"Kreia, are you a Jedi or a Sith?"
"Does it matter? If course it does. It allows you to split the galaxy in two; categorize it. Know that I wielded both, and recognize them for what they are: pieces of a whole."
...or something like that.
i finally understand "to back away from power that is not your own, that is the true lesson of strenght" that's why she calls it the "choice of malachor V" because at that moment, the exile gave UP their connection to the force, she backed away from the power of the force, a power that was not hers to begin with omg this game
Unfortunately, that's a misunderstanding. Although Kreia's philosophy is that of never becoming dependent on others, Kreia herself never lived up to it and became dependent on the Force and power in an attempt to learn how to destroy it. She sought the exile to regain her connection to the Force because she could not let go of power.
The idea of power being my own or someone elses is a trap of the ego.
Me: No, i don't want to be Powerful.
Kreia: Deny it, and you deny power!
Me: alright, its too OP anyways.
Why disney didn't do a movie about Arren Kae ?! She is female, she was beautiful at her younger years AND the Best written character in the Star Wars Univers! She fits the bill! .... And now we are stuck with pc Ma-ReY Sue .... feels bad man :(
I highly doubt Disney's capacity to write such a character.
What do you mean? They were genius in how they deconstructed Star Wars with EP8! You know. They shat all over Luke and gave us Jar Jar 2.0. "We don't win by fighting what he hate. But by saving what we love" Flawless writing...lmao
Oh how I wish this was a movie........ so.... damn.......Goooood.
"I am alway testing you, never forget that." -chilling
"Everything i tell you is a lie" - chilling too
i found a resembalence in Kreia and Vergere, both using an unique, skillful Jedi in times of great turmuil, to their greater plans
ideas ?
Yeah, they have strong similarities where both emphasize choice and their intention rather than the actions themselves be beholden by the light or dark side. Also too Vergere severed Jacen's connection to the force to rely on his own rather than the force when once regained, he became stronger than before another trait Kreia shares. The only main difference I see is where Kreia sees death and ultimately pessimist about the force, Vergere is rather more positive about it though her goals are far more elusive in that regard.
Huh... Very interessting way to see things ;Y I like the new angle ;D
It is very interesting.. and countlessly proven time and time again within society. And that's what is so great about Kreia as well. Her Philosophy is very much in links with modern society and how its presented ideals can fall at any time - it's why we shouldn't rely on it because we can become to endulged in it that when it's taken away, we become nothing to. Similar to Sith... ultimately, Sith are so drawn to power that when they are stripped of it, they loose their entire life's work. This is the beautiful analysis that Kreia made of the Sith and how that their lust for power (which inevitably always happens) will forever consume and destroy them.
This is why I feel that Hanharr shouldn't have been restricted to Dark Side players.
I feel like Kreia is the writers criticism of the black and white views of Jedi and Sith.
Then I recommend watching my video explaining in greater detail Kreia's criticisms of the Jedi and Sith.
I would, but your profile picture doesnt really say: I like to discuss Nietzsche and exisentialism haha
Nah I saw that and will probably check it out
The profile picture comes from a Visual Novel called Higurashi which is overtly Nietzschean. I'm very big on Nietzsche. Hehe.
Well that showed me haha
That is precicely what she is.
Holyfuckingshit Kreia and Stirner have almost identical philosophies
I think you and Dudufilms should collaborate on a project at some point. You both clearly have a great grasp on this subject.
Has there ever been a better written character in Star Wars? Seriously all of Kreia’s dialogue is fucking brilliant.
I played 2 before 1. There was a lot left to my imagination.
Whaaaaaat! Mind=blown
I’ve had this question over the years, but never figured it out. After Kreia saves the exile from the Jedi council’s judgment, she said she wanted to know why the exile gave up the force and still lived. The LS exile would be told “because you were afraid”, whereas a DS exile is told “because you had no choice”. I don’t understand why she said that.
Sure thing. So before I can explain the difference between the two, you first have to understand the Exile. As I explain in my Kreia video, on Malachor V, the Exile activated the Mass Shadow Generator which caused a lot of death. As a result of such attachments being severed, all Jedi present were given two choices: die or fall to the Dark Side. The Exile choice a third option: cut themselves from the Force.
Kreia argues that this singular choice is not only unique, but rare to the degree that no one has ever done before or will ever do in the canon of Star Wars. The question becomes figuring out the why, and it presents itself depending on your chosen path.
If you chose the Light Side, the implication is that the Exile was either afraid to die or afraid of falling to the Dark Side and becoming something different than who they are. If you chose the Dark Side, the Exile is already committed to remaining themselves and choosing to live rather than die. When given the alternative between dying or not being themselves, they had 'no choice' but to let go of the Force.
Hence, the alignment make different commentary on the path the Exile made based on the current life choices to reflect on the motivation for letting go of the Force. I hope that answers your question.
Interesting how despite preaching not depending on other (which btw Is different from relying on others) kreia herself Is absolutely dependent on the Exile to fulfill her ambitions because her own strenght however "true" it may seem Is not what Is needed for her to realize her objectives
Very astute. At the end of the game, Kreia says that despite everything she preaches in her hatred of the Force, she became too dependent on its existence. She ultimately had no choice but to be dependent on the Exile to enact her plans.
What is the difference between relying on others and depending on others?
@@toeb616 if i rely on you, say to get to work for example, and you fail me, i might lose my job but otherwise i will be fine.
If I depend on you, like i'm you infant child, then if you fail me, i will surely die.
Indeed. In can't recall the exact wording, but Kreia admitted as much, that not everything she says is what she truly believes. Sometimes, she just says things to be a contrarian to your beliefs, so you can strengthen them through the adversity she represents, as a deliberate obstacle to overcome and be stronger for it.
@@DraculaCronqvist So she's a literal devils advocate?
Damn, played as a Sith Lord at least once and this never occurred to me. Makes perfect sense though, in relation to her scorning of helping others on Nar Shadarr
3:28 Wait, but he didn't turned away from power. He just gained +2 to Wisdom.
but thats not power... its wisdom, knowledge, understanding. Not raw strength, or endurance.
@@ShamriCayia You probably only have the Wisdom for the conversation if you specced for pew pew lightning. More Wisdom in fact makes you stronger.
I'm always on guard since learning things is scary.
These games remind me of how badly I wanted to hear my character. Then I remember how much that seemed to rob from the overall experience.
Man, Zoe Wannamaker is a great actor with a great voice
yeah, but muh strength build tho