You were afraid
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- Опубликовано: 23 фев 2009
- Excerpts from the video game "Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords" This is about the Jedi Exile and Kreia and some alternate or cut lines from their conversation with the Jedi Council in the ruins of the Jedi Enclave on Dantooine. Restored content include a premonition of Visas Marr, which leads her into a confrontation with Kreia while the Exile is speaking to the Jedi Masters, and a scene with the Disciple on the Ebon Hawk. He has just learned that the Republic is under attack, but the Exile is also in danger. He must make a choice between the two, and Kreia knows this. The sequence with Kreia and the masters is different, in that she speaks to them first, then attacks. When the Handmaidens come for her, and Kreia leaves, the Exile hears her companions through the Force as they react to the news of her reported death.
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it really pisses me off how kotor2 set up a really thought provoking story and then swotor just goes "jk revan was brainwashed"
Best thing about Legends canon: Anything goes. So fuck it SWTOR never happened.
Idk if it's that simple. It basically means everything that is not the movies and the Disney animated series' are non-canon to the main universe. But it's still the case that everything outside of the movies is now their own separate universe and canon. Though, I totally wish certain aspects of SWTOR did not happen.
PepperBeef2Spicy
Here's something canonical that I love: In The Clone Wars CGI show there are a number of references towards The Mandalorian Wars (what KOTOR is the aftermath of) so that's canon in my eyes. SWTOR never happened in my opinion, it was so bad it screwed over amazing stuff from the KOTOR games.
I always viewed it as if any of the new material published by Disney, whether it be the movies, tv shows, books, or comics contradicts anything in the old material it's instantly not canon anymore. Since as far as I can tell neither Kotor nor Old Republic was contradicted I still consider everything in both canon.
Lavender Tempest one of those references being that Picasso-styled mural in Sundari on Mandalore that depicted Jedi and Mandalorians battling one another
I love the idea of Kreia. She was a Jedi master who saw how the Jedi where flawed and then Turned to the dark side only to realize they weren't much better.
Here goal the whole time was to crush the sith and re-organize the jedi order. Hence why she killed the remaining jedi masters and the sith lords Sion and Nihilus. Using the exile to accomplish this goal, leaving her/him to re create the order.
I'm pretty sure she just wants to kill the force. She talks about how it seems to control one's destiny, and how she only uses it as someone would you poison. That's why she returns to Malachor V, where the first great void of force was created, to echo it through the galaxy and kill the force.
To add to that, that's why she hates Sion, because he is of the force. You can't even kill the guy until you crush his spirit and he loses the force.
kreia is an anarchist with good intentions
Ash Nuts *Amen*
two things.
1. this is the greatest ingame explaination of xp ever
2. this make me think of agent smith
Meetra Surik: We're here because of you Mr. Lamar. And now we'll take from you what you tried to take from us: PURPOSE!
Undertale had a good system of explaining "exp" as well. But yeah this game kicks all kinds of ass.
Beautiful explanation of XP AND why your followers are so heavily influenced by you, constantly put their life on the line at your will, and level up alongside you.
Reminds me of Morrowind and CHIM and Dragonbreaks explaining how you could reload saves. And use cheat codes. And have mods. And have the multiple endings of the previous game Daggerfall all be canon
that always stuck out to me too, its like theh exile says "thats how XP works:
"Do you wish to feel the teachings born of the Mandalorian Wars, of all wars, of all tragedies that scream across the galaxy? Let me show you, you, who have forever seen the galaxy through the Force. See it through the eyes of the Exile."
Chills.
+Michael Warreker "as you would pass judgement on her, I have come to pass judgement on you ALL!"
Kreia is such a complex,fantastic character.
Guy to guy thing, here. We all have our.... fetishes
Rupert Waring Hmmm.... *how interesting* and most importantly *Raw as Shit* & *STILL CARRYING WEIGHT*.....
"Endure what he/she has endured."
Vrook: "You were deafened."Kreia: "At last, you could hear." Zez-Kai-El: "You were broken." Kreia: "You were whole." Kavar: "You were blinded." Kreia: "And, at last, you could see."
Gives me chills every time. Man, I love this game.
Scogman Just reading it gives me goosebumps
1:54
Kreia: "And, at last, you saw*"
Her sharp intake of breath when she came to the realization gives me major fucking goosebumps.
What kills me is that no Star Wars movie will ever have writing this good. Effectively making these two games priceless.
You know, for a story about an avatar that the player creates, they sure do a great job defining who that character was in the past. Pre-Peragus Exile sounds like an idealistic young person who made hard decisions, detonated an atom bomb, and ultimately became a hermit out of a mixture of fear and disillusionment. That's a full, dynamic character arc right there.
+dragonknightleader1 They took a risk by making a character such a different type of backstory to Revan in K1. Sure, Revan was a Sith Lord in the past but you could simply choose to be light or dark regardless.. Being Revan in the past doesn't impact much in the present.
In K2 however, a lot of the game (Atris, the Jedi Council, Ludo Kressh's tomb) is spent wondering in the Exile made the right decisions in the past, whether they believe themselves to be a Jedi (whether light or dark) and so on. It goes beyond the simple light/dark dichotomy.
Alex the mandalorians war was not ended by some bomb, it was ended by a gravatonic anomaly machine labeled as the mass shadow generator, it killed millions, imploded the planet, sucked hundreds of warships to the surface and crushed them, and the deaths of millions fed the power within the Sith academy there and that power vacuum nearly consumed the galaxy
That's a nerd point, and it doesn't change the narrative of the story. The point was the Exile used a WMD and killed millions.
Still, if it were an atom bomb the situation would have been far less extreme
Alex and by the way, I dont care if you think its a nerd point of view, its the point of view of someone who actually pays attention to the story
Never dont get chills when Kreia chimes in with "She has brought you truth and you condemn it? THE ARROGANCE"
"You must've noticed as you fought across all these planets, killing hundreds, only to become more and more powerful. Why do you think that was?"
Exile: "I... I thought I was just leveling up! I mean, come on! It's not my fault I just show up at these places and a bunch of assholes want to kill me! You know how many bounty hunters were after me because they thought I was the last Jedi? So I had to kill them first! I... I'm sorry about it."
That's how I imagine the Exile would react. Seriously, it is funny how they tied the game's leveling into the story.
I was thinking the same
That makes three of us
4th wall break, LOL
Reminds me of Undertale, and how LV is only gained through murdering others, and you only get stronger in kotor 2 and in most RPG's by murdering others.
@@dalebockelman4979 Kinda why I like ElderScrolls and how you can level up by sneaking past enemies successfully.
Even though it was horribly incomplete because of the deadlines in which the game was forced out, KOTOR2 is still probably my favorite RPG of all time.
+Jake Johnson Kotor 2 with the restoration mod in my opinion stomps the first kotor and I would consider the best story in the star wars lore that I've seen.
+HowaboutlunchLP restored content that was missing, fixed bugs and glitches, more lootables that couldn't make it into the game, dialogue. just look it up and there should be a list of what is being brought back. What I probably liked more out of this game was I could become a light user who specialized in the force and tore through my enemies with force storm. Even if there are major penalties for using opposite abilities you could still mix it up so that way you don't miss out on something interesting
+HowaboutlunchLP The restored mod adds a ton of things, for example:
On Dantooine, remember fight against the mercenaries/settlers, in the original it was just a cutscene and its pretty lame, now its a full fight.
On Nar Shaddaa theres a new fight as well where your party has to fight against a ton of bounty hunters after the exile has gone into the Jekk Jekk tarr.
After you have trained your party members to become Jedi/Sith you can learn them new Feats, Force Powers and Lightsaber forms too.
Theres also new items, dialogue, sidequests
(There is planet called M4-78 which were cut from the original game as well but theres a seperate mod for that though, not sure why they didnt add that)
Bottom line: DON'T play Kotor 2 without the restored content mod, it gives a completely experience and is the reason why Kotor 2 is my favorite star wars game, one of my favorite games of all time and greater than any of the movies.
(I never forgive Lucasarts for rushing Kotor 2 and forcing Obisidan to cut out all this from the original release though)
+Shadowpatrick_1007 If you want to know why M4-78 isn't in the TSLRCM, it's because it's not really "restored content". There wasn't nearly enough (Just the modules and some other bits I believe) content in the game files to make M4-78 a full planet, so instead of restoring content they made content. So it's a different mod because it's using content created completely by the modders, rather than just fixing/adding back in existing content.
There is a restoration mod on steam and online for it now. They finally finished the fucking thing, that said, this scene has parts from that content because some of this way actually new to me.
Sara Kestleman's voice for Traya is... haunting. Sends a chill up my spine when she speaks. She's truly in-character, I wish she did a bit more VA, though I'm told she's a brilliant stage actress, too.
She is 72. Perfect age to appear in a KOTOR 2 movie?
Ed Phillips honestly Disney should just say fuck it and make both KOTORs into movies. That way they can at least get amazing stories and sort of reboot themselves after their failure of a trilogy. Doubt they’d be that clever though, they probably wouldn’t want to risk making something out of the current timeline.
I don't think she's ever appeared in a movie (at least not in a major blockbuster). Which is a shame, because she sounds very dramatic and very Ian McKellen-ish. She also sounds like she really enjoys the role of Kreia.
Her being a stage actor added so much to her portrayal of Kreia, her vocal control is pretty much perfect
@@vetarlittorf1807 she's in goddamn zardoz, of all things. it's a bizarre experience to see 30 year old kreia lecturing sean connery wearing nothing more than an orange diaper, to put it mildly
This is absolutely beautiful. Through this final act on the Jedi from Kreia "See it through the eyes of the Exile" and cutting them off from the Force. She proves that she was right. She did not kill them. They died from the shock of being cut from the Force because they RELY on it as if it is required to survive. Yet the Exile survived without it. The Exile is the pure embodiment that her teachings are true. That the reliance on the Force only serves to make one weak.
Omg tht just made my day
Does Kreia actually ever kill anyone?
thehopelesshelper I'd say she's killed people that get in her way, like the endless gangsters in the galaxy. But she's a teacher at heart, and you can't teach the dead.
But i mean in the game other than when we control her i dont think she does. My fav character philosophy 101 so much depth but in fairness bindo in a different way was also a contrasting character in the 1st
Mind blown :O
I love how Kreia just walks in on the three Jedi masters and calls them out on their blatant hypocrisy.
It´s interesting how the jedi, Kreia and the Sith saw the exile differently. The sith feared him for the power he had. The jedi feared him because they saw him as the death of the force which is the pillar of the Jedi . Kreia loved him for she saw him as the end of the corruption the force brought.
In the movies they paint Jedi to be the ordinary "good guys" while Sith are just evil. KOTOR 1,2 showed us that it´s more complicated than that and made us create our own opinions about the different sides of the force based on every strength and flaw they both had. Kreia was awesome.
Johnny DiedForOur Sins You mean she.
Meetra Surik is a woman.
@@khaos5085 There is no Meetra Surik. The player decides. The Revan book and the mmo should never've been made and they don't get to frickin decide for me who and what these characters were
As much as I absolutely hate what they did to Revan and Meetra with some awful writing I do like how Revan looks like Keanu and They made the exile and canonical gender and name
Keep in mind there was a canon Sith who was a light side user in the force who tried to change the Sith for the good of both sides but as all things nothing lasts forever especially peace...
@@Pariahmachina Why not? It's their art. They crafted a story, but allowed you to break it. It doesn't make their story invalid. It just means they prioritised player enjoyment over a strict railroad narrative.
This scene reminds me about why I loved this game. At this point the character (and even you) are at the lowest point. You reunite the Jedi Order that kicked you out...to only have them kick you out AND try to take away the friggin force from you.
In K.O.T.O.R 1 and most Star Wars content, there is Light and Dark with Grey areas in the middle. But in THIS game, There are shades of grey everywhere.
At this point I couldn't even look at the Jedi as good guys anymore, which was really strange. Major props to the writing for this game.
***** Honestly, I think Mass Effect's council was worse.
Honestly, I think the Council was wrong here because just because Meetra Surik had Force Leeching does not mean she was evil. Kyle Katarn once told Jaden Korr, "abilities are not inherently good or evil, it's how you use them." She had no allegiance towards the Sith Triumvirate anyway. But Kriea is not exactly innocent anyway because she was a Sith that was just in denial. Yes, shades of grey, but glimmers of light and dark still exists.
These guys always pissed me off lol. Save their asses and then they repay you with bullshit
Hahahhahaha. Really. So true.
***** aye but this ability is jsut evil its not even an ability she uses it anyway she hears the force trough such pain so shecut herself off the force as she saw hints in dxun and saw dat forcei snt important but now that she reaghined it she devours the poeple she kills and if it would coontinue she would become like nautilus and she draws him to herself and thats why jedi did what they did fcking selfish bastards
Kreia didnt kill the masters. She severed their connection with the Force and they died because they were dependent on the Force. Kreia was right...
So...she killed them. Like, she knew that that was what would happen. I'm not saying whether she was right or wrong, but she DID kill them.
@@paytonkilmer1920 Old comment I know, but if you are a drug addict and are going through a drug detox at a medical facility and die in the process, is it the medical facility that killed you or your own dependency that did? The Jedi Masters were weak, because they depended too heavily upon the force instead of using it as a helpful tool like they should have, severance from the force doesn't always mean death...
Besides that, I think it's stated that they weren't quite in a state of death.
@@paytonkilmer1920 no. They killed themselves. For being fools
She force drained them
"And that is what I sought to understand. How one could turn away from such power. Give up the force and still live. But I see what happened now. It is because you were....afraid."
I always get chills at that line.
The thing that pisses me off is that Zez-Kai Ell and Kavar seemed to realize that they fucked up (Zez-Kai Ell more-so than Kavar), and then they turn around and try to cut the Exile off from the Force.
***** Maybe because they talked with Vrook before the exile returned to the Enclave. Vrook was probably arrogant and headstrong during their meeting so they didn't dare to oppose his opinion.
Ábel Farkas You're probably right. I've hated Vrook since KotOR I.
*****
For some reason I never liked him either.
*****
Hehe Yeah. That's very likely.
+demonnator SERIOUSLY?
I loved this scene. Because those Jedi “masters” refused to see the truth, and instead tried to scapegoat the Exile through twisted logic. Through Kreia we realized the true revelation: they saw the Exile as the same breach/wound that Nihilus was. Only the Exile was the exact opposite of Nihilus. Where Nihilus devoured, the Exile healed.
I wouldn’t say healed…more like partially stitched, the wound it still there, still screaming, forever a reminder to those that only rely on the force
The keep seeing to far ahead into the future instead of focusing on the now. Their inactions have costs people many lives. It’s reasonable when they have such foresight but they’ve been too locked up in their own heads to see what’s in front of them. Pity
The thing is, everyone that the Exile killed, she unconsciously fed on their life force. If she had fallen to the dark side, she would have become just like Nihilus.
You were deafened.
At last, you could hear.
You were broken.
You were whole.
You were blinded.
And, at last, you saw.
God the writing in this game is SO FUCKING FANTASTIC
KotOR 2 proves how you can have a great climax without action at all. This dialogue is so strong, the atmosphere is phenomenal. Obsidian nailed it with this one, their interpretation of Revan and the Force is just so superior to what BioWare offered us in SWTOR. Actually, I agree with the comments here. I don't Believe in BioWare anymore, even if they wanted, they wouldn't be able to give us a worthy ending of Revan's story, so just let it rest.
Michael Hagedorn what amazes me is that this game is incomplete, and still it's fantastic. I could only imagine how even better this game could have If they had fully completed it.
Chris Parra thank the fans for the RCM. Am I right?
There was even plans for an aftergame where you could rejoin the council and the exchange was a bigger threat during the story
"I don't believe in BioWare anymore" oh man was this a premonition
Super late reply, but my favorite part is that this feels like a true climax, but in reality it's only the jumping off point for the final act of the story. From here we get to see the Exile carry Kreia's wisdom and their own conviction into Telos, finally peeling away at the rotted core beneath Atris's academy, battling to save the planet from Nihilus, and finally culminating with facing everyone's greatest trials on Malachor V. What a beautiful, flawed game.
A 9 minute dialog in a video game just gave a deeper understanding of the connections of the force than 6 Lucas movies, and they make *this* non canon? -.-
They haven't. They don't care at all about this era, because it's so far back.
They made it non canon, then issued a cease and desist against a studio merely making an unreal mod up to the #1. :(
This will always be canon. Screw Disney Star Wars.
@@louisiananlord17
Agreed Disney aren't even the creators so they don't get a say in what's canon or not.
Disney made this non-canon (in other words fuck disney). George Lucas on the other hand when he was still in charge was so impressed with kotor 1&2's story said this is now canon.
Zez Kai Ell - "You must have noticed as you fought on all these planets, killing hundreds only to become more and more powerful: what do you think that was ?"
XP. It is XP.
To Obsidian's credit, it's a really cool thing to unify the gameplay mechanic of leveling with the story mechanic of force bonds, especially whipped out in an armor-piercing question like that. Zez-Kai Ell had some of the best lines of all the former council members.
It's a great shame that there isn't a third game.
mmh make up a fine trilogy better than their mass effect trilogy .
+Badass Elite At least they're making a remake of KOTOR.
+Alejandro Molina Really?
+Alejandro Molina kotor2 has a more interesting story in my opinion. simply because of kreia
+akhbar allahu I prefer KotoR1 due to how short KoToR2 is.
The story suppose to end at the same point as in Revan's novel (revan, jedi exile and a good? sith grouped up together and went to fight the sith empire on their own and stuff) but nope! The dev got rushed by their publisher and now we got a toally short and unsatisfying ending.
The Masters: Right idea, wrong target. They think you're Nihilus, or proto-Nihilus. And the thing is, they're right. But oh so very wrong at the same time.
+Bloodlyshiva Yes.Kreia's point is exactly that they lost focus, they are closed-minded. They want to pass judgement on the Exile without trying to understand what s/he's been through. They hide on the war-ravaged planets and still fail to learn the lessons from the war, fail to truly emphathize with it's victims and to see that their rigid, dogmatic approach to the Force is what drove countless of their students to the Dark Side.
+Bloodlyshiva The ironic thing is that if they had stopped the Exile there, Nihilus would have annihilated the galaxy.
Correct, and this is why I love this game so much. It is exploring the grey areas not purely defined by light or dark. It is exemplifying the deeper mysteries of the Force and those who wield it for what purpose.
The KOTOR games were fucking awesome. In my opinion the best story based RPG's ever.
a shame swtor ruined both games by making revan a emo bitch, and by taking away the emotion from the story and made it all feel fake
Ninvus Gaming and making it an MMO where you "have to kill 15 rakghouls/bring X to Y" with the ocassional interesting conversations and cutscenes.
Yeah they tried to have a mix of a MMO and a story based RPG, and the result was an amazing failure.
Average MMO at best, and terrible RPG. Nobody cares about fixing water supplies and fetching unimportant items from A to B, even if it's wrapped in voiced cutscenes.
these were the glory days of American RPG's.. now..bioware creares shit.
Boxingcode And Obsidian is too ambitious to ever make a good game without bankrupting themselves
The title of this video fits so well with this scene.
Listening to the masters talk, "the end of the force and the end of the jedi", it's clear who was really afraid.
The jedi of this time, were less students of the force and more dogma. During the time of the movies, Grey Jedi (Jedi who don't completely follow or believe the Jedi teachings) like Qu-Gon-Jin could operate in the order even if they got on the council's nerves. But in this time, Grey Jedi like Kreia get kicked out, she wasn't even exiled for believing differently, but because all of her students fell. These guys were so focused on placing blame, they never tried to look for a reason, to find the source of the problem and fixing it, because that meant looking in a direction, they didn't want to.
And here they do it again. The Exile was the one person who could fight Darth NIhilus, simply because she was immune by virtue of being similar. Common sense should've told them that, if they had succeeded and fought him, they would've died, easily, then the whole galaxy would've followed.
The Exile was a wound in the force that lived, she represented the idea that their entire outlook in life was wrong, she existed beyond the sphere of their knowledge and limits of their beliefs and they thus tried to destroy her, not literally, but effectively. As before it was the same, instead of trying to understand, they placed blame and thus punishment.
Sol Zen As far as I remember Kreia hated the Force because it had it's own will and Jedi relied on the guidance of the Force more then on their own common sense. The Council were afraid of Exile because the Force was afraid of Exile.
Kreia also despised the sith coz they too much relied on force too. Sion and Nihilus are great examples.
So it seems that her ultimate goal was to establsh a new order of force users who doesn't rely exclusively on it and she had chosen Exile as it's future leader.
Torian Kel As far as I can tell, the force wasn't afraid of the Exile, granted it's a fair assumption to make, but that wasn't why the council was afraid of the Exile. The Jedi worship the force, basically, the Sith as well, but only so much that it elevate them.
Imagine seeing your god, the center of belief die, that was the Exile to them. All your beliefs, religious or otherwise, shattered, proven wrong. That's what the Exile is, a place, a living being, where the will of the force is denied. I don't think the Force was afraid of the Exile because, if she was such a threat to it, it clearly would've seen her destroyed, then again there were bigger threats like Nihilus to deal with, so let's just agree that it's unverified.
+Sol Zen But the exile WAS destroyed eventually. If the Force really does have a will and agenda, then it all makes sense. When Revan, Meetra, Scourge (one of the Jedi Knight's companions from SWTOR) and T3-M4 faced the Emperor, Scourge started suddenly having visions of what would happen if they fight the Emperor. None of the outcomes the Force showed him were good, so out of desperation believing they are going to fight an enemy that is hard or impossible to defeat, instead of relying on common sense, he killed the exile. So technically speaking, the Force really did want Meetra dead, she really was a threat.
+LightStreak567 Firstly, I do not consider Novel's canon, and please do not bring in STOR into this, that game has just bastardized Reven, The Exile and even Kriea. Secondly, as you said, Scourge killed her because he believed that they couldn't win, so he just won favor with the Emperor until he could find someone who could. That's not the Force wanting her dead, that's her being unlucky that she faced an enemy she couldn't beat. By that logic the force wanted the masters dead when they faced Kriea who wanted to kill the force. If the force wanted her dead regardless, she would've ended up dead after being Nihilus, or during her Exile when she was without her powers and was easier to kill.
The Exile may have been a wound in the force, but (going with the notion that the Light Side ending in the canon one) she wasn't an enemy of the force, like the emperor or NIhilus.
Sol Zen You're just simply upset at how Revan and the exile were treated. What, were you expecting a happy ending for them?
The Force gave Scourge visions. Force sensitive people do not have the power to see the future that they desire to see. The Force either shows alternate futures or keeps the future the Force user intends to see clouded. Have you ever wondered why in Episode 1 the Jedi Council couldn't see Anakin's future when Qui-Gon Jinn requested him to be trained? It's because the Force did NOT want the Jedi Order to know that in a few years Anakin will become a Sith Lord if they train him to become a Jedi. The Jedi and Sith depend on the Force for guidance, wisdom and strength, but as KOTOR 2 taught me, Jedi and Sith will likely never know or learn how to rely on their own power and intuition when they lose connection with the Force.
My feelings about Jedi completely changed after this.
Exactly! Same here.
the Jedi during this era only thought about using the force mainly for balance that is why they refused to take part in the mandalorian war, not because it would sacrifice many but because it would cause disturbances within the force. it was at about Yoda's time that the Jedi realized that the force Should be used for balance, yet at the same time peace and justice.
Did you play with the complete restoration mod? I had mad respect for kreia before i tried the mod but after... She's my favorite Star Wars character and possibly villain ever
***** Wow...That was deep.
***** i know right
"You were deafened."
"You could hear."
"You were broken."
"You were whole."
"You were blinded."
"And at last....you saw."
Still sends chills down my spine :D
My own interpretation after playing KOTOR2 is that the Force goes beyond the overly simplistic dichotomy of the light and the dark side, irrational fear of the dark side by the Jedi instead of understanding the dark side actually leads them to the dark side, as well as the seemingly paradoxical notion that to grow as a Jedi sometimes you have to rely less on the Force itself. And all that makes absolutely perfect sense in the Star Wars universe.
Chris Avellone is a fantastic writer of putting thought provoking ideas into stories.
Afqwa Yes, I know - such a late reply. But Kreia's plan wouldn't kill anyone other than Jedi. Those who live without the Force would just be deafened to its will. Let me repeat that: deafened to its WILL.
The Force would still exist. But it would either be impossible to use, OR it would be used without using others back.
You would probably really like the Republic Commando books by Karen Travis’s and Traitor by Matthew Stover. Both feature the same idea of flawed Jedi and moral grey areas.
After reading everything you just wrote, I only have one thing to say to everyone here:
Welcome to the Grey Jedi, brothers.
@Afqwa which is funny you cannot kill the force. Force sensitive will always be born it's tied into the entire cycle of the galaxy just as our galaxy has its own cycles with everything. Sorry people the universe itself is far more in control over everything and decides more than we ever will.
Palladium yes which is why I loved the Jedi Sentinels belief as a whole they mastered normal trades and used the Force to assist not solely
RIP Ed Asner
Between this and Fallout 2 and NV, Obisidian demonstrated they know how to write dialogue. There's more to the world than notions like "Good" and "Evil." There is philosophy, the interpretations of life through an infinite number of people's experiences. To assume you know everything is to prove you know nothing, and being unwilling to learn is perhaps the greatest sin.
"The only good is knowledge. The only evil is ignorance." -Socrates
This game...oh dear. I wouldn't be the same person today, haven't i played it. Anytime I lay it i feel kind of enlighted, full of wisdom. Love doesn't not describe half the feelings i have for it. Now i want to play the fuck out of it for the 20th time again..
Enlightened on what, exactly? Big words?
Chris Avellone (Obsidian) is probably what made KOTOR II so great. He immersed himself for weeks in all manners of star wars films, books and comics before even started writing KOTOR II. That's why the storytelling is so good. He's also the guy who wrote Durance and Grieving Mother for PoE.
Sadly he's just recently left Obsidian, I REALLY hate EA for not giving Obsidian and Chris the chance to make KOTOR III while they had it. I hope I'm wrong and that Chris has gone to work on KOTOR III somewhere else. But odds are not high.
I fear BioWare will make KOTOR III and the BioWare of today is not what it was before. The ending of ME3 is infamous, DA2 was average at best, DA3 was outright horrible. There is no way they could tackle KOTOR III with those writers and do it justice.
shingnosis DA:I was an abomination. I have no idea how fanboys will ruthlessly shit on DA:2, a game that had a good story/side stories, and praise DA:I as if it's some gift from The Maker. I don't view it as canon to be honest---------DA:2 promised a brutal kill-or-be-killed Mage/Templar war that would set all of Thedas ablaze, and all we got were two cartoonish 2-dimensional groups of Mages and Templars to side with that went nowhere after the first arc.
Really not that excited for The Force Awakens either, it looks like a regression back into A New Hope-style "pure good vs pure evil" storytelling. I doubt they'd introduce a morally grey character like Kreia or Revan-----hell even Sith like Darth Marr-----no matter how popular those characters are.
+shingnosis One thing is that you not like DA3 but say it was horrible i think not.love KOTOR 1&2 and DA:origins perphas DA3 wasn't a perfect game or has amazing story like the KOTOR series or even DA: origins but it was a great game overall personally and i not mind if that same team do KOTOR 3 but that is my opinion.
+David R The main problem with DA2 was not the story (Personallyi think the story and writing where awesome) but it was the repetitive locations and the customize options in the game, personally for me all you companions in DA2 are very forgettable except for Varric and a lot of people dint like the new fast paced gameplay(Personally i loved it!).
I respectfully disagree with the notion that DA:I was horrible for me it was a great game but i can agree that the developers play the story a little too safe this time around compared with the others first 2 games.
+ Lwin Khales Do you have a source for that? As far as I know EA were the ones who were in a position to make deals with LucasArts, and they could easily have convinced LucasArts to let them make KOTOR3, or to let obsidian make KOTOR3. But EA wasn't interested in that, EA wanted to make a WoW competitor and put BioWare (EA owned) on the task to make SWTOR. I believe EA specifically denied obsidian the chance to make KOTOR3 on the side because they saw it as a potential competitor. EA are shrewd and evil business people and it is my strong belief that obsidian was denied the chance to make KOTOR3 because they didn't want anyone stealing their limelight when SWTOR launched. Obsidian expressed many times that they were interested in making KOTOR3 but nothing happend.
Yalwin Khales
Entirely possible, I suppose only handful of people know what really happend and I certainly don't know everything. Could be a combination of things of course. Real shame in any case.
Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords. The best game that was never finished.
I still play KOTOR II. On my original Xbox console. That's how good this game is.
Do you have the horrible sound glitch/bug? I had to switch to pc because of it... that and The Sith Lords Restored Content Mod...
No I don't play it on my 360 because of that issue. I use my first generation Xbox console! Still works to this day! I bought the game for PC too because I wanted to try the game with mods and the graphics are better with a higher end graphics card, but I can't get the game to install and run on Vista whatsoever. Tried for hours and hours but couldn't figure it out.
Caleb Jurgensen anything on vista will have problem. Window XP will work best. Window 7 is possible but still some errors but they can be fix.
Caleb Jurgensen Heck yes, I still play it on my old Xbox too. It is that badass of a game. It brought intellect into the gamer's soul. Just a masterpiece of a video game.
Is the pc game better? I have it for original xbox too. Still my favorite game ever
Kreia is the best character in the history of Star Wars.
David Hatcher who is it
And revan
TheFlashBreaker Only Revan as Kreia describes them to be. The Revan you play as in KOTOR doesn't feel well written - because you can't (literally can't) display the amount of complexity Kreia describes Revan to have. The rest - the clues that build up to the revelation of your true identity - is good enough.
EpicZeke76 I'd say the Exile is *probably* better written than Kreia (except when it comes to dialogue). He is an average Jedi with a unique gimmick - an instinctive knowledge of Force Bonds. He realizes that Revan is right and joins the Revanchite movement as a Republic General. In the war, he makes choices out of necessity - choices that go against the Jedi Code. The pain of his fallen comrades and enemies alike is transmitted to him as he fights, and eventually, at the final battle on Malachor V, he triggers the Mass Shadow Generator and feels the pain of an entire planet being transmitted to him through the Force. Because pain and strong emotion resonate through him, he effectively spreads a disturbance in the Force through his very existence - a pain so great that it becomes impossible to feel the Force... except, again, through his gimmick. The destruction of Malachor also echoes through many Jedi, killing some and corrupting others - which also includes *Kreia*, who, according to Kavar, was fighting as a Jedi in the Mandalorian Wars (she may or may not be Brianna's mother, but it is true that Kreia was a soldier in the war). And not just Kreia, but also Nihilus and Sion! And this is without mentioning that the Mass Shadow Generator unearthed Trayus Academy, which was where they studied Malachor's teachings - namely, Force Drain and whatever powers Nihilus and Sion used to keep themselves alive despite both being undead.
In other words, the Exile (and Revan, since he used the Exile to create the disturbance at Malachor in order to clean house) created his own teacher, as well as the other two members of the Sith Triumvirate, AND revealed the evidence that a secret Sith Empire existed beyond the borders of Malachor and Korriban. All of that because of a brilliant use of a gimmick (even if it is imported from Planetscape Torment). Then, after killing hundreds and feeding on the bonds of entire planets, the Exile becomes (or would have become, in theory) the strongest Force User in the galaxy, after everything he went through.
Lastly, the Exile was the secret to freeing everyone from the Force's will. I am sure that Kreia did not literally mean that she wanted to kill the Force - she mentions that what pleases her is that the Exile is 'a dead spot in the Force, where its WILL can be denied'. And she mentions that the whole idea that the Force has a will disgusts her, that the Force drives Force Users to kill Sith in order to achieve a measure of balance despite how many lives are lost in the attempt is despicable. Then she says that the Exile and his companions are the True Jedi, and could teach others the teachings of Malachor, should they choose to keep it. All of this tells me that the Exile is the only hope in the Star Wars universe - that only he can deny the Force's will and allow all Force Users to actually USE the Force without being used back.
It is great. Really great. And the Exile is a silent character! Just... brilliant.
BigBlueRed 26 nice thoughts, but the Exile is female
"Let me show you... You who have forever seen the galaxy through the Force... See it through the eyes of the Exile!"
This speech by Kreia has always been one of my top moments in gaming and Star Wars.
Such a brilliant, under-appreciated game (due in part to it being incomplete without modding).
"This master is dead. His body is worse than lifeless, it's like AN ABSENCE IN THE FORCE." Horrifies me. Every. Time. Sounds as heinous as if she killed their souls, erased them from the timeline. Holy shit, Kreia. Masterful writing indeed.
Saw this yesterday. When she said "you were afraid" with that voice I got chills all over my body.
royox
SAME maaan..SAME.. her voice just gives methe chills..she's scary and yet...you're attracted to her like some kindly old grandmother...wow..
It's the music
Kreia is one of the best characters ever written. Because she is so indescribable, is she evil? Is she good? Should we as complex conscious beings constrain anyone to such a binary description? But without such binaries how do you describe someone.
+Fangs of Yima She was like what a fully realized force user is, maybe even the embodiment of the force in human form but focused on the Sith side of the force to get there.
+Fangs of Yima
- There's 3 Stih Lords. The lord of Pain, of Hunger, and Betreyal.
- Who's the Betreyer?
- She cannot be revealed yet... you must trust me, she...
- It's you.
- I'm tired of this conversation... Let's move on.
+jestemwlodzimierz I thought it was atris... Kreia was different... Maybe not
If it wasnt for the behind the scene events like kreia reviving hanharr and colonel tobin and her at the trayus core being betrayed by sion and nihilus I would have thought it was Atris
She's not great, she's just vague. The holes in her character are masked with lack of answers. Though I do applaud the writer of her character for making it look like it's not just a hamfisted attempt to deliver his views about the Force through a video game character.
"She has brought truth and you condemn it? The arrogance!"
Those three jedi masters are strange. And the most strange thing is that they are using the word "punishment" when trying to eliminate the influence of a being with some dangerous inherent (!) qualities.
And they seem to care more of the power of the Force and of the Jedi order teachings, but no talk of spreading good will.
They really must be arrogant, as Kreia put it. Especially master Vrook.
NightXsenator These Jedi are no longer regular Jedi due to the wars they'd faced. These Jedi are afraid, influenced by fear. They act on fear and are controlled by it.
That's why the Jedi order had to die and the sith with them. In order for the exile to rebuild the order.
That was Kreias plan all along. She is an amazing character.
She is amazing, but I thought that her final goal is to destroy the Force.
NightXsenator
As far as I understood, it wasn't about destroying the force and all life with it but rather not be dependant on it.
She wanted the exile to recreate a new Jedi Order that doesn't worship the force but learns to live completely without it.
That's why she cut off the force from the Masters, not to kill them but to show them their weakness.
The Exile did that to protect herself on Malachor and returned to the Jedi Council, while the Masters fell unconscious as soon as they were cut from it.
I believe, if destroying the force was truly her goal she could have just let Nihilus do his thing, he would have consumed all life eventually.
They were all fools, Vrook was arrogant, Kavarr's judgement was clouded with pussy juices from that Queen and Kai Ell was just a coward who hid his ass in fear.
People in my environment never understood why I prefered KOTOR 2 over the first one. By reading the comments I can feel reassured: I prefered KOTOR 2 because its writing was brilliant, complex and thought provoking, and that's what I think was putting my friends off.
Thanks to everybody for sharing your thoughts. The way this game turned the whole Star Wars lore upside down is still unmatched, and probably will always be.
I always got the feeling that Kavar and Zez Kai Ell were more understanding and that Vrook convince them to betray the exile and cut her off when she came. Especially when considering Zez Kai Ell and Vrook. This sort of thing is the exact reason why Zez Kai Ell left the order. Because of the jedi's arrogance and their punishment without understanding or context. Also he realizes that the exile was not a threat after Nar Shadaa.
Vrook on the other hand is dogmatic and thinks everything the exile does is wrong and considers her a threat the whole way. Even after she saves him from his terrible plan to save Khoonda, and saves Khoonda by herself. Even up to the gathering on Dantoonie( the gathering she single handedly made possible) after the exile saved all these worlds that these Jedi were hiding on and not protecting, and he has the gall to assume that the exile is a threat and even questions if she comes for revenge. And his dogma runs so deep that he feels justified in betraying the exile who is saving the galaxy while he sits around doing nothing.
And I can't see Zez Kai Ell or even Kavar being stooped to that level of thinking after talking to them individually unless Vrook somehow convinced them otherwise. Maybe they had a sudden change because the plot demanded it or because they didn't actually believe what they said when they were alone. Or maybe I'm just over analyzing a game I feel in love with.
The Exile was to be the death of the Force, if her influence was allowed to spread enough. But the idea that it would spread just through the Exile as much as they thought it would wasn't as likely as Vrook surmised. The Exile was a wound in the Force, exactly like Nihilus. The problem wasn't just the Exile, it was that as long as the Exile continued to be able to feel the Force, there was always a possibility that more Sith would learn to do what the Exile did, feeding on Force energy, and being able to find and kill Jedi until they were annihilated and eventually the Force, at least as the galaxy knew it, would be gone forever as the influence of those type of Sith spread.
Mic 112 don't forget that it was Atris that had her exiled at Kreia (Arren Kae's) request
I think it was for the fear to the exile, for the posibility of her destroying the force something that they don't understand before
@@Rambit Kavar also says on Onderon her bonding where dangerous and that it the exile enabled her to reflect and recover from the Mandalorian Wars.
This scene was one of the greatest examples of fantastic writing I have ever seen in a game.
The whole theme is that neither the Jedi or the Sith were right. Kreia sought balance between the dark and the light, and that is the force. She was right all along.
Balance.
Actually... I'm pretty sure she wanted to *kill* the Force. Though, that would bring balance too.
***** That particular Sith'ari would be Kreia's favourite for installing balance, though she still wouldnt accept him for he was Force Sensitive.
I always read it as Kreia had more students than Revan and Surik, those were just the most famous.
I think Bane would agree with her sense of balance though, seeing as that was most of his character trait lol
I'd put Palpatine closer to Kreia than the rest of the Triumvirate - for there must always be a Darth Traya (and he was one shady sod, let's be honest). Plus, both of them manipulated their students for their own agenda, which was very well played considering.
Hex PLAYS A dangerous and fragile play, balance doesn't really mean to fight violently at all. It's another kind of 'fight', an inmersive one inside of us, a continuous struggle between the dark and the light, the passion and order.
Yet the light our guidance shall be, our darkness then must be our challenge to surpass and to accept as such naturally.
Yes, loved for that reason: that not the Jedi nor the Sith were right. That the Force is subtle, and the one who learned to control it, and go with the flow was the one who walked both paths, Kreia, Revan, the Exile..
It's fantastic to see how much of the arrogance of the Jedi is exposed with Kreia's speech
Btw, even if Kreia looks like an asshole she is totally right, and of course she is just the byproduct of what happened between her, Jedi and Sith. None wanted to learn more than what they already knew, stagnating and collapsing on themselves in the end
Everything in the game ties back to the themes of the story. It's brilliant writing, and something we just don't see enough of these days.
We need Chris Avelone to write for star wars again
While it's a touchy subject, he fell to the court of public opinion and in the most probable likelihood he's exonerated no one would take the risk to hire him
@@breadmakesyoufat2403 that’s sucks considering he acknowledged he made a mistake
V: We cast you out only because you followed Revan to war, there was no other reason.
Z: No, there was another. You have become different somehow, changed. The war has changed you.
K: You were no longer Jedi, but we cannot tell you why. Some explainations mean nothing, unless the one who suffers comes to the answer on their own.
K: What had happened to you was a punishment enough, and the Jedi do not kill their prisoners
Z: And if you would stay, you would have changed all of us, and that we could not allow
V: It is not an easy thing to explain. Trurely, you are famlliar with the Force bonds. It is the bond that develops between apprentice and master, when one trurely understands another. t is developed through the time, through understanding of each other, but you did it so easily and we did not know why.
K: You make connections through the Force, and it resonates in those who travell with you. The resonance is even greter when they too Force-sencitive.
Z: Your actions affect others more than you know. You draw others to you, especially those strong in the Force.
K: Those, that travel with you (Visas: There's something wrong here. A disturbance in the Force.)
Z: They follow you without question, without hesitation.
V: Against their instincts, and sometimes against their sence.
K: This bond... It travels both ways. When you feel pain, or strong emotion, it resonates through you.
Z: And that is why Malachor echoes within you still. The screams of countless thousands, Jedi and Mandalorians, crushed by the planet's gravity, annihilated.
K: To feel the Force over such pain... it is not possible. It was too much for any Jedi to endure, and it is a wonder that you did not die there, when thousands perished, all those you have fought with, struggled with. You cut yourself off, because you had to if you were to survive. You had henced it on the world of Dxun, Malachow was simply the final blow.
Kreia: Ahh...
V: You were deafened (Kreia: At last, you could hear).
K: You were broken (Kreia: You were whole)
Z: You were blinded (Kreia: And, at last, you Saw).
V: When you returned to us we saw that it happened. You carry all those deaths on Malchor within you still, and it has left the hole, the hunger, that could not be healed.
K: In you, we saw a wound in the Force.
Z: In you we saw the end of the Force.
V: You are a cipher forming bonds, leeching the life of others, syphoning their will and dominating them. It is the teaching of these new Sith - to feed on others, on other Force-sencitives. They are a symptomatic of the wound in the Force.
V: You are a breach, that must be closed. You transmit your pain, your suffering through the Force. Within you we see something worse than the techings of these new Sith. What you carry means death of the Force, and the death of the Jedi.
Z: You must hve noticed, as you fought across all these planets, killing hundreds, that you've become more and more powerful. Why do you think that was?
K: But what's worse is that bonding you have, it hasn't gone away - it's gotten stronger, nd the more attachments you form, the more you draw others to you.
V: And that is why you are a threat to us all.
(Kreia: You Know, what the choice is. If you don't warn them, the Republic will fall. ll those countless lives, innocent lives.
M: For the one.)
V: What if other Jedi went to war as you did, suffered the same events and emerged as you did? What is there was a crucible that trains such Jedi to consume and kill?
Z: For you, Malachor was tht crucible.
K: What's worse is these new Sith that we face. I fear that they learned the lesson of Malachor all too well. It is what allowes them to prey on others, to become stronger when Force-sencitives are near.
V: Somehow they learned their hunger for you, and that is why you've brought about the end of the Jedi, and, perhaps, all the knowlege of the Force. But it is of no concequence. Your ability to make such connections, such bonds so easily is the reason why you can not remain.
(Visas: And so you wait, as a shadow
Kreia: Yes, we are alike that way, blinded one
Visas: I would have thought you would walk with her amongst the Jedi. That is not the way of the Sith, is it?
Kreia: Do not speak to me of the ways of the Sith. You, of all of us, have no conception of what it means to be Sith.)
V: You re a threat to all livin creatures, to all that can feel the Force.
Z: You will bring the Sith here, and that we can not allow.
V: Your judgement beore remains. Exile, you must leave. And you must leave without your tie to the Force. It s the punishment reserved for only a few and only one nesessary, but we have power to cut you out of the Force, and it must be done.
K: Forgive us, but this is nesesary.
V: Do not be afraid, you shall feel no pain but this must be done. As long as you can feel the Force, you re a danger for those around you.
Kreia: Enough! Step away from her! (V: Wha-) Step away! She has brought truth, and you condemn it? The arrogance! You will not harm her, you will not harm her ever again.
K: I thought you have died at the Mandalorian Wars...
Kreia: Die? No, became stronger - yes!
V: Is this your new master, Exile? If so, then you follow Revan's path. Her teachings will cut you to fall as sure as he did.
Z: She is difficult to see. She is like the shadow of the Exile. We thought to lure the Sith out, and now they have come to us.
Kreia: How could you ever hope to know the threat you face, when you have never walked the dark places of the galaxy, faced war and death on such a scale? If you had traveled far enough, rather than waiting for the echo to reach you, perhps you would have seen it for what it was. Dd you not feel it on Dantooine, Vrook, on the scars of the surface and it the minds of the settlers? I have endured your corruption of my other students - you shall not have this one.
Kreia: And you, Kavar, so close to the call of Dxun, tell me - did you not feel what poured from the moon, what had taken place there? And Zez-Kai-El - to hide yourself on Nar-Shadda, yet blind yourself to all that happened there? So close to understanding the Force, so close to giving it up. There is a place in the galaxy, where dark side runs strong. It is something of the Sith, but it was fueled by war.
Kreia: It corrupts all that walk upon its surface, drowns them in the Dark Side, it corrupts all life and it feeds on death. Revan knew the power of such places, and the power in making them. It can be used to break the will of others, of Jedi, promising them power and turning them to the Dark Side. Did you newer wondered, how Revan corrupted so many of the Jedi, so much of the Republic, so quikly? The Mandalorian wars were series of massacres that masqed another war, a war of conversion, culminating in final atrocity that no Jedi could not walk away from, save one.
Kreis: And that is what I thought to understand. How one could turn away from such power, give up the Force and still live. But I see, what happened now.
Kreia: It is because you were afraid.
This part was so emotional for me that it actually made me both cry and rage. When they talked about me like this, like I was some kind of mind controlling death tool and nothing more, it really hurt. And the music was perfect, it created some peaceful, but tragic atmosphere so when they wanted to cut me off from the Force, I teared up. I still tear up at that part.
The part was touching indeed. I felt for Surik so much in this scene. She had followed her heart and did no evil yet the Council judged her and said she was wrong and was going to take away her spiritual stirring...the Force.
You were deafened..
*At last, you could hear.*
You were broken...
*You were whole.*
You were blinded..
*And, at last, you saw.*
"You fought in the Mandolorian wars?"
(Fortunate son fades in)
"That's right."
I love this exchange so much. One potential metaphor I take from this scene is the fallout of suffering from a trauma and how it can forever change a person. Some people who go through prolong suffering will adjust to there circumstances and this change or damage depending on your perspective can be irreversible. Comparing the Exile, Keira, Nihilus, and Sion you can almost see perfect examples of how people react to such things. The Exile traumatized by the reality of her decisions and so much death ran away, Keira grew hateful towards the authority that allowed for such suffering and lack of freedom from the Jedi and Sith. Nihilus became an addict who caused great harm in pursuit of his need and Sion represents the eternal cycle of violence that always keeps spinning.
This scene was the culmination of an absolutely outstanding game. The music, the story, the interactions with your followers. Just amazing. I refuse to recognize TOR as anything near legitimate after playing this game. Absolute art. The mysticism, lore and depth, the darkness of this game is what sets it apart from the first, which was also outstanding. Nostalgia-ing hard right now. Love this game. Better writing than the prequel movies.
Let's not kid ourselves. Better writing than any Star Wars movie, period.
This game is what made me love Star Wars... And nothing since has been quite so beautiful
When I hear the Star Wars theme I get goosebumps not because of the movies, but because of these two games
Came back here after watching The Last Jedi.
Man, Disney just don't understand what Star Wars could or should be.
Man, it hurts. I just came back from watching it. Mark Hamill was right, and I'm glad I at least got that trigger warning from him, but nothing could have prepared me for what I just saw.
all Disney understands or cares about is making tons of money.
Jason Leslie
Watto: Only Money
@@jasonleslie203 and push their empty political agend into their even emptier movies....
@@laszlodajka9914 true. That way they have an excuse to terminate the franchise & permanently shove it in archived vault and let it gather dust for a long long time so that's forgotten about
Kreia is so unique as a character that hasn't gotten enough attention and detail. Disney had so much to go on with the expanded universe and just shat it all down the drain.
Why can't KOTOR fans start some sort of Kickstarter campaign to show there's still high demand for KOTOR 3?
Kickstarters don't work like that. Kickstarters are for raising money for a starting project. You'll need a petition to show the how many people love the KoTOR series. I highly doubt it would work due to Bioware having EA managing all of their projects.
Revan Kaiju
Bioware had not done that, and bioware is dead inside. Obsidian done that. And Obsidian is busy making "totaly not baldur's gate 3", for now.
Pierrick Inesta
I know Bioware didn't make KoTOR 2. I still like Bioware but I hate that they have EA funding them. I don't care which company makes it either. Highly doubt we'll see a game like KoTOR for a long time.
Pierrick Inesta
I heard Bioware is teaming up with someone else to make an 'open-world' Star Wars game.
*****
Where did you hear that from?
Kotor 2 is my favorite when it comes to deep Star Wars stories, it's pretty much a story about ptsd for a Jedi.
1:58 CHILLS maan... CHILLS.... Kreia's character and voice is PERFECT... she makes the Sith idea realistic and..attractive...sophisticated.. and not like the cliche of mindless slaughter... I listen to her in-game and even without the videos and the screen, I feel like I'm in an actual movie..like actually being there...Kestelman SERIOUSLY needs an award for her role in this game
Immersive way to explain influence system in the game without breaking out of character, Kudos to the writers.
The Jedi talking about the consequences here is better than anything Disney has released. This is art and a great story to compliment Star Wars.
When it's all said and done, one may look at the masters. They aren't dead, but the pain they felt in "seeing the galaxy through the eyes of the Exile" has caused them to fall into deep comas that they likely will not wake from.
Imagining that one person could feel such pain by simply feeling the force that none other could comprehend, not even the Masters of the Jedi Council, it boggles the mind.
I didn't play LS, so never saw this. Do they live? I thought she killed them in this video.
I had played through the game once again since I made that comment and I had remembered the text wrong. They are dead, but their bodies were "worse than lifeless, it's like an absence in the Force", meaning that Kreia essentially wiped their essences from the face of the galaxy.
Daltheer Fehn In that case it puts the lie to her words then. She didn't "make them see", she destroyed their very spirits.
So much for "teaching them a lesson". If they'd been allowed to join the force in death, then they WOULD have seen her point.
It makes her soul-disintegration moment here petty and senseless, instead of poignant.
Well the point is that the Exile him/herself is an absence of the Force, they becoming the same was what Kreia had done, she did not exactly kill them, but the pain they had felt in that moment had. The game goes on about how much pain and suffering the Exile bears, but he/she "deafened" themselves to it, as Kreia put it, being similar in idea to one having a sprained ankle, but walking it off, ignoring the pain and eventually the pain goes away. The Jedi Masters evidently did not have the capacity to withstand such pain, like one person being shot in some place on their body and dying, but another person being shot in the same place and surviving.
Daltheer Fehn I never understood the contradiction there. If Exile is an absence of the force, why are they using powers? Once you start using powers again, you're no longer force-free.
Self presevation? Have the Masters forgotten the last line of the Code?
"There is no Death, there is the Force"
+Simon Schroder I guess they forgot that part of the code as soon as someone came along who could say "Fuck the force, it's a piece of shit and I don't want it anymore"
Preservation of the Force, not themselves. The Exile would have been the death of the Force, that's why Kreia protected her so much. That is what she wanted.
This is the end of the last of the old order, the true last Jedi as Kreia puts it Atton, Mical, Brianna, Visas, and Mira create the new order.
Litterally everyone was blind, except Kreia, Darth Nihilus and the Exile.
Really kills me Lucasarts forced Obsidian Entertainment to rush development on this game to the point they cut out content like the one in this scene. They make this great scene even better than it was originally.
Am I the only one that thinks that the Exile's story is better than Revan's? Revan's story seems overrated now, and TOR is having him do the whole "asspull an army and take over the galaxy" thing again -____-
TOR fucked up Revan and Kreia so bad. I just void it.
***** Same with the Exile. TOR is just a generic MMO with a Star Wars flavor that tries to milk as much money as it can out of fans. The only thing it has going for it is the cutscenes which could still use some work.
Sean White They literally (and I don't mean that figuratively) wrote out the entire "the exile is a wound in the force" sub-plot and just made her a totally normal jedi AND made the Sith Emperor (from the Old Republic MMO) a wound in the force IN THE SAME TINY PAPERBACK NOVEL. That novel is Revan and if you ever get the chance to read it, don't. Just don't. Drew Krapshyaskjhfd may have done a great job with the Darth Bane books but he clearly had no clue who any of these characters were.
Bastila acts nothing like she did in the games AT ALL and they ultimately write off everyone of any importance that they couldn't shoehorn into a boss battle at the end of an MMO dungeon.
***** Kreia is in TOR?
aperturesciencegames Basically. I haven't played since then, but I remember in one of the Sith storylines you meet her.
The music is so fitting and powerful... and painfully nostalgic knowing we most likely will never see kotor 3
“You must have noticed as you fought across all these planets, killing hundreds, only to become more and more powerful. Why do you think that was?”
“It’s called leveling-up, dude.”
And we never saw another being with as much mustachechlorians as Zez in this galaxy
I really thought TLJ was going to touch on this, about the real flaws to the Jedi and how they only care about hording the secrets of the Force. Luke almost touched on this but they kind of just, dropped all conversation about it so they could focus on Kylo Ren's papa issues...
gone are the days when the story defined the quality of a game
Pretty much why Kotor 2 is a great game.Obsidian sure do know how to write an amazing plot.
Sad that they had to scrap KOTOR 3 due to some unknown issues.
***** I really, really hope Disney will finance it, and HOPEFULLY OH GOD PLEASE not ruin it for whatever petty agenda Disney has.
***** Why haven't fans made a KOTOR 3 then, if it's abandoned to the fools and non-existent, then the story is in anyone's hands now.
It wouldn't even need uber graphics, hell make it look like it was made in 2007 for all I care, but damn couldn't SOMEBODY come up with an amazing fan fiction game following the events of KOTOR 2?
Jesus, how is every single thing Kreia says so incredible?
If I was a woman i'd cosplay Kreia everyday of my life
I mean, you can do it as a guy... But wouldn't be as convincing
I can’t help but laugh when people call TLJ a ‘deconstruction’ of Star Wars that ‘turns it on its head’. PLEASE. TLJ just does ROTJ in episode 2 of its trilogy instead of in the third. KOTOR 2 explores the force, the sith and the Jedi and does something NEW and INTERESTING with them! TLJ isn’t subversive, The Sith Lords is.
TLJ is a different kind of subversive.
a failed kind of subversive
You're trying to compare a game that has up to 50 hours to delve into its story, with a film that had one twentieth of that to do the same. That's some faulty ass logic.
Kotor 2 is objectively better Star Wars than any of the movies, I don't know why you think that something can go into the same level in 2 hours+ hours.
@@BlueFury2577 they had plenty of time to explore such themes with luke instead they wanted casino world
They tried to but failed. Better than Force Awakens at least.
Kavar and El were so close to learning the lesson being taught by Kreia here. I think even El said he was close to leaving the Order, which would have been a first step much like Kreia did. But they shied away from it in the end to protect the Force for fear of living without it.
Vrook was always too arrogant to see the truth and Atris blinded by her hate/love of the Exile for doing what she always wanted, but could never do, becoming a twisted amalgamation of both Force doctrines instead. It would have been interesting to see Lonna Vash’s take on it all had she not died on Korriban before the Exile could speak with her. I wonder what her damage would have been lol
Dang, Chris Avellone and Obsidian are the greatest writers!
Querry: Are you aware of your meatbag status?
Better scene than all The Last Jedi
It's a shame that Star Wars has died in such a horrible way
My condolences. I just came back from watching that thing, and I'm devastated :'(
Hilarious thing is that TLJ is obviously trying to imitate some aspect of KOTOR 2 ... but fail miserably due to the author obvious misunderstanding of the game main philosophical question.
Kreia does not despise just the teachings, she despise the force in itself.
The main question in KOTOR 2 was never "are the teaching of the Jedi/Sith wrong" but "To what extend do you have free will, when the will of the Force is so omnipresent". She did not wish to destroy the orders, she wished to destroy the Force.
The film is a failure on that aspect, and in many other (Weaponised hyperspace, nature of the dark side, nature of the force, implication of being cut from the force). I wholeheartedly HOPE they never touch the KOTOR legacy until they pull their shit together.
Please don't even mention that poorly writen mess around this masterpiece
@@felagund90 And horrifyingly, they are touching the Kotor legacy now, ruining the last pure refuge of Star Wars. They ruined the OT, now they ruin Kotor. To paraphrase Luke:"Then Star Wars is truly dead."
Am I the only one who's kind of glad KOTOR 3 didn't happen? I hope it never does.
At least, I hope it's never made by modern day Bioware. It would be a disaster. Unfortunately if it is made it'll be by Bioware since EA owns exclusive rights to all Star Wars games now.
If anyone should handle it, it should be Obsidian. They made this which has one of the best Star Wars stories ever told and Obsidian keeps pumping out great games to this day.
***** You can't really blame LucasArts, though. Despite the short amount of time allotted for KotOR 2's development, Obsidian managed the project poorly, and while the game wouldn't have been perfect otherwise, Obsidian could have released a far more polished game than they did.
I agree. Hopefully Pillars of Eternity is a sort of spiritual successor to KotOR 2.
***** They could have used more time, but based on what Chris Avellone has said they had enough time to polish more of the game let alone finish it.
***** www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-07-31-fear-is-the-path-to-the-dark-side
If this is not one of the greatest storytelling in all of gaming then I don't know what is
If they didn't rush Kotor 2, this would have been so much better than the original.
I just played them back to back, pretty sure it beats the original even with the semi-rushed ending. I like the mystery. All conversations w/ almost everyone are much deeper. Even the HK-47 convos are at another level in part 2. It's "The Godfather Part 2" of videogames. Part 1 is more climactic and exciting, Part 2 is supposed to be quieter, weirder and scarier.
gibberconfirm Yes, I agree the dialogue and plot was much more detailed in the sequel. Although, I cannot ignore the fact that Korriban was rushed, Hk Assassin sub-plot led no where, there was no Genoharadan sub-plot, and the ending made no sense and was very anti-climactic.
***** suum cuique
***** Sorta to me it was like a vengeance story im talking about kotor 1 since your apprentice almost killed you and you have to kill him.
gibberconfirm I've been looking for this comment forever. I just want to apologize. I see now that KotOR 2 is a better game. I think KotOR 1 is more fun to play, just because the actual game mechanics work better (but now that I understand the forms in KotOR 2, that's a really cool element) But now that I understand the nuances of KotOR 2 and how it deals with existentialism, nihilism, individuality, free will, and predistination, I can thoroughly say that KotOR 2 is the better game. It only took me 3 years to learn that 😂
As a 13-14 year old back then, I couldn't process this whole conversation. I just knew that Kreia was VERY questionable but I still stood with her and I somewhat understood what she was trying to teach / say. Coming back with my turned 31 years to this moment, I kinda see the "brutality" behind her move to let them see through the eyes of the Exile. Imagine feeling all the deaths that the Exile has felt and then you're not even dying, you are basically somewhat in a ever-lasting comatose, teetering on the boundary between life and death. That's what they essentially are, they are not really dead but probably are dying slowly while being trapped in their bodies.
Vrook and the others were not strong enough to endure what the Exile endured/endures, they relied too tight on the force, Kreia proved a point here. How can you defeat darkness if you are not willing to explore it? This is too crazy to comprehend, even now! WOW. Seeing how Obsidian / Mr. Avellone couldn't make KOTOR 3 I am glad it never happenend, it will remain a pretty nice "What if?"-scenario in our heads. I don't think that KOTOR 3 would be good if they made it today, they would probably change too much to make it fit for a "modern gaming experience" instead of sticking what they've built with KOTOR 1 and 2. Not even judging that MMO KOTOR game, it's just not good enough imho.
Man... thanks Mr. Avellone and Obsidian for this wild experience, even thanking BioWare for KOTOR 1. Such great games. Maybe they'll make KOTOR 3 now that they've announced a remake of KOTOR 1 for the PC and PS5 in the future. If there was a time for KOTOR 3, then the remake will basically pave the way for a KOTOR 2 remake and then gun for KOTOR 3. We shall see. I am gonna remain skeptical if the KOTOR 1 remake can re-capture the same old magic like back then...
As an aside, the musical score in this game is out of this world. Brilliant.
I think this series is why I got burned out by this franchise. With the Restoration it was so great that nothing in the franchise could ever measure up to it after.
Yeah I dont see the point either. The Madalorian series is pretty cool but everything else is shit-tier
Star Wars writing peaked with the kotor games
I'm glad Luke in Legends changed the Jedi Order for the better and absolutely hate Disney for passing that up. Apathy is Death Kennedy.
These so called "Jedi Masters" never have to go through with the MC went through. So Kreia simply showed them what it was like to live without the force as how the exile was.
Clone Wars fans: We finally understand why the Jedi is flawed. No wonder Anakin turned to the dark side...
Kotor 2 Players: You reached that conclusion now?
Some of the most complex (and my personal favorite) SW characters were created in these games. This is real storytelling.
Kreia is the most underrated Star Wars character
The Most Profound Moment in Star Wars History
"culminating in a final atrocity that no jedi could walk away from... save one."
When she leaned down on my character she said “you had no choice” instead of you were afraid. And I think that’s dope because it was my one neutral playthrough and I actually got a different dialogue there
I heard that The Last Jedi is apparently getting comparisons to Kotor by having similar themes.
As someone who played the games, I can kind of see it, but I have to say... I think the writing here is better. Which is a shame, because nobody else I know has played these, and they probably had as much of an influence to me as the Original Trilogy.
Don't you dare compare that poorly writen mess to this masterpiece
"You must've noticed as you fought across these planets, killing hundreds, only to make you more powerful. Why do you think that is?"
Because it's an RPG.
Genius to make a game mechanic have relevance and meaning in the actual plot right?
1:57 Scene that brings chill in my bones. Perfectly set up not just in terms of dialogue but also writing and dramaturgy.
The most chilling quote for me will always be "As you would pass judgement on her, I have come to pass judgement on you all." The reason being is that Kreia held such conviction, that she reserved all that overwhelming power and belief in her ideology that she literally overwhelmed the rest of the council. She did this through knowledge and experience. She was blind and one handed, yet overwhelmed them all with no perceptible effort.
I loved this scene and it is hands down one of the best in the game series. Great writing, and a different take on the perception of the Force.
I liked how while Kotor 1 addressed some of the advantages of having a force bond, Kotor 2 took force bonds to a whole new level and logical extreme. The Jedi here aren't exactly wrong in their assessment of the Exile or their actions. She forms bonds easily and it is through these bonds that she was able to use the Force again. There's no limit to who she can bond to, so she can literally make a web of thousands or more people bonded to her. But what would happen if she died or went dark side? Not only can she influence other people through these bonds, it wouldn't be that big of a step to assume that if she died, all the people she was connected to would also die. So the Jedi were faced with a choice. Allow this woman to go free, a woman who is the potential embodiment of a living Force Bomb who could kill an unlimited amount of people through her own death however unintentionally, or cut her off from the Force and save the lives and wills of so many.
I'm not saying they were correct. There is no right answer to this sort of problem.
[Prepare for over thought out rant]
As for Kotor 3, I really hope that if it is ever made, the developers alternate universe it. Revan's canonical fall to the dark side was so 'stock' and not as in depth as what I came to expect from the series. It's not bad but a bit too bland for Revan, master tactician, that he just ran into Sith in the Outer Rim and was then seduced by dark side blah blah. It made him seem more like a stupid pawn and made his fall just another 'evil sith from behind the shadows' sort of plot, that in its existence protests that our hero would have just been A'Okay if a mean man didn't touch him. I know it's not a good argument to say 'it's been done before' since everything had been done before, so instead my complaint is that the canonical is counter intuitive to Revan's and, by extension, the Exile's stories.
I always thought that the Jedi Civil War that occurred after Mandalorian war was a 'means to an end' sort of deal. That Revan discovered something on the Outer Rim, and realized it was a force that spelled the death of everything he just finished fighting for. So he would do everything possible to stop this unknown force, even if it meant turning to the Dark Side and changing the Republic into an Empire. It would be a more natural progression as he has seen how militarily weak the Republic was without his more a'moral tactics, how unbelievably passive the Jedi were when war was at their doorstep, and it would fall in line with a military mind that moves on practicality. This is shown in Revan's invasion vs. Malak's. Malak was portrayed as someone who destroyed pointlessly, like Telos, while Revan sounded like someone who was focused on converting rather than destroying.
What would be interesting is what waited on the Outer Rim were sentient beings that killed by feeding off the energy of the Force, basically the touch of death to anyone within reach. That way it would make sense that Kreia would be so drawn to the Exile, as the she is a dead spot in the force and would be impervious to such attacks, an attack of which there is no other defense. It would also explain Revan's apparent love of droids, as not only would they be impervious to jedi influences (let's just ignore destroy droid power), but also they would be unaffected by a creature who can kill via force drain.
I always liked to think he found the Yuuzhan Vong. If you listen to Mandalore/Canderous's war stories he talks about a time during the mandalorian wars where he and several other ships were near the edge of the outer-rim and accidentally provoked a ship disguised as an asteroid in an asteroid field that seemed to physically morph like it wasn't a ship at all. It then blasted off into unkown space at incredible speed and they never bothered to follow it. I always assumed it was a Vong scout.
(This is ofcourse prior to Bioware shitting all over the Revan lore so they could shoehorn it all into their polished turd of an MMO)
(Just looked up Vong on Wiki) That would have been so much better!! Not only would it have been a viable threat, but it would have also introduced an entire new species of Star Was that a percentage of kotor players would know nothing about.
Why couldn't they have used their own source material? Canderous's story would have been perfect foreshadowing to be used later down the line. Like they did with other game series (Mass Effect's Cerberus being a side quest in game 1, and then becoming a major plot element in game 2.)
Honestly this is one of the most powerful scenes in star wars for me
Honestly I love Swtor, but I think Bioware made a mistake calling it "The Old Republic" and proclaiming a sequel to the first two Kotor games.
I don't look at Swtor as a sequel, I look at it as something that stands out on it's own in the SW universe.
Kotor 2 is one of my favorite Star Wars games and it will probably never get a real sequel, but I hope at some point they re-release this game for current and next gen consoles and please...give us a better ending.
KOTOR 1 and 2 have character-based storytelling, much like longform TV shows or novels. "Old Republic" has...questgiver-based storytelling. I'm not exaggerating.the primacy.
gibberconfirm I don't know about that, I actually love the companions you have that tag along with you.
Kind of wish you could bring in two at a time and have each crewmate duo have unique dialogue with eachother.
But honestly I love SWTOR, it just gets a bad rap for being an MMO and a being proclaimed sequel to two of the greatest Star Wars games.
I played it, liked it (never could get into WoW since it had no story.) But if KOTOR 1 and 2 could be compared to TV storytelling, with strong characterization and story development, then which TV show or novel is about 500 random assholes explaining how they need somebody to do something?
There is *nothing* to love about SW:TOR,
if you respected, and cared for Revan and Exile's stories, listened to Kreia with full-attention, faced the dilemma of Bastila... not, a, thing.
Fucking Ea, obedient laptop Bioware and their pathetic greed.
Part of me celebrates to no end because Disney discarded all expanded universe, because of what these fuckheads decided to spin up the story where the other one cries because these brilliant stories also were discarded.
Tol Hydra another Kotor fanboy. Swtor is a good fucking game and they did all the Kotor l and ll character cameos just fucking fine. I love ALL three games but you can't seem to actually see how good it is cause of your blind hatred of E.A. and bioware has caused you to see nothing but the bad things. Try revaluating your take on Swtor because it has gotten much better.