Passing Judgement
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 4 окт 2024
- The exile's journey comes full circle. After finding and gathering all the remaining members of the Jedi council, the time has come for them to explain Meetra Surik's sentence and to face the truth of what she is and what she represents.
This is my version of this scene from knights of the old republic 2. This scene was originally immortalized by Knights&Darths. A video I remade and you can see here: • You Were Afraid (Remake)
It was difficult to detach from that legendary video, I would need some very fresh eyes in order to make it completely original. In the end I figured it's perfect as it is and thus added more that the scene possessed and filled in the music.
Twitter: / papitoqinn
Donate: www.paypal.me/...
E-Mail: papitoqinn@gmail.com
Blog: kinja.com/qinn
Twitch: / papitoqinn
#StarWars #KOTOR2 #Expandeduniverse
![Eminem - Temporary (feat. Skylar Grey) [Official Music Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/ZaK9Wi5ho0o/mqdefault.jpg)
"...killing hundreds, only to become stronger. Why do you think that was?"
And that was the first time in my life that I played an RPG that turns its essential mechanics into a plot point. That's not counting card based RPGs.
I know right? It was very clever.
Undertale also ties its core mechanics into its story, and does so really well.
@@scoutymcscoutface2957 kotor 2 does so much much better though
WillieManga it would’ve been funny if there was a dialog option to counter that: “because I was getting exp from every kill”
Player respond "That still doesn't explain those strange purple numbers that kept appearing above everyone I killed. Is it a side effect to being a wound in The Force? Or am I just going nuts?"
Here's the kicker, that DRAIN didn't pull the Life Forces of those masters, it just cut them off from the force and the shock killed them.
It's pretty wild how dependent jedi become to the force. I recall Kreia stressing in it's own way this was a huge weakness because it presented such vulnerability in its absence. And the stronger you depend on the force the more it has agency over you.
@@Skizzy461 Kreia even said that Atton was better prepared than a Jedi because he wasn't reliant on the force.
Scott Wilson almost like a drug addiction once you sever between the drug and the addict the addict will suffer huge withdrawals that can possibly kill him/her.
and that was was Kreia was so angry. They didn't understand how STRONG the Exile was. She endured that shock, and went on to do great things anyway.
@@boxtank5288 And remember that Revan had assassins like Atton trained, first to kill Jedi, but Revan (like his old master) *always* had a *true* motive.
"She has brought truth, and you condemn it? The arrogance!" is such a amazing line alone. A masterpiece of a scene this is.
Spacious reasoning.
Kinda sad that the Jedi never really changed over the millennia. Palpatine may have pulled the trigger but they had a part to play in their downfall.
She sounds a lot more mad when she says that line for a male character for some reason
@@stevenceja4706 you know what they say and honestly a true statement all round “Apathy is death”
The voice actor is very talented.
-You were deafened.
-At last, you could hear.
-You were broken.
-You were whole.
-You were blinded.
-And, at last... you saw.
This resonates deep within me! 💖
I played this game when I was a kid and I didn't understand shit.
I played it again when I was older and I cried during this judgement. I got SO invested in the story...
My favorite Star Wars moment of all time.
I saw a comment that explained these phrases. To the council, the Exile's act of severing ties to the Force was detrimental, but Kreia proceeds to add on by stating the benefits of such act. On a personal note, I can't help but remembering that one episode of Black Mirror drama series called Nosedive because of that explanation.
Some of Kreias lines still stick with me to this day. Such a Deep and well written character, chilling.
"Never doubt what you have done. All your decisions have brought you to this point." My favorite Kreia quote.
Angry Leprechaun her philosophy is very Nietzschean; notice how the core of her philosophy is on individuality: building your strength without depending on anyone else, fighting your own battles, indulging yourself regardless of moral constraints, etc.
determinator 94 That's why I love her philosophy. She actually wants people to be free - of dogma and destiny. Make your own path.
I think many long-time fans of SW feel that Kreia is the greatest character the universe produced, and perhaps the greatest Sith Lord too.
One of the best written characters in video game history
I always liked the school of thought that the Exile and Nihilus are the different sides of the same coin. They both experienced the same tragedy, they have become the same thing...a Wound in the Force...a parasite...but so different. Where Nihilus is a parasite one way, the Exile is one that works both ways. Nihilus feeds off the life of everything. The Exile takes the strengths of others, and gives them strength back
I always liked that too. But you know what? There's actually a lot of coins going around in this game. Almost all the main characters are aspects of something else.
Its because of their relation to the Force that made them what they are. Nihilus is so dependent on the Force that he’s not even living anymore; he’s a void, like a force of nature, that being in his mere presence is draining. He feeds nonstop. On the flip side, the Exile cut off her connection to the Force years prior and is now listening and tuning into it again through her innate ability to form bonds. Because she feels those bonds, she’s able to transfer strength amongst herself and her allies.
“...a parasite...that works both ways” I believe that’s called a symbiotic relationship
@@chriscombs21886 symbiotic is an umbrella term, you're thinking of a mutualistic relationship
I see Nihilus as a parasite and the Exile as a Symbiot. Nihilus feeds on and destroys that which he connects to while the Exile draws strength from and empowers those that she connects to.
"Die? NO! Became stronger? YES!"
Nieztche aproves
The mantra of every Nihilist.
@@theia1653 Nieztche would force choke you for saying that. He was in strict oposition to nihilism
@@theia1653 isn't that the opposite of nihilism though? Nihilism is the surrender to the world's bleakness. The philosophy of those without a will.
@@trollzland1337 Nihilism is another way of saying YOU have no purpose. If you're nihilistic, you have nothing to harness your will and potential towards.
Kreia hated Nihilism, hence the very memeable “Apathy is death” lesson in the tomb.
"Do you wish to feel the teachings born of the Mandalorian Wars? Of all wars, of all tragedies that scream across the galaxy?
Let me show you, YOU who have forever seen the galaxy through the Force, see it through the eyes of the Exile."
Some of my all-time favorite dialogue in videogames
Indeed. I'm planning on making a video on what I think of it. Because I think there's something in her words that people aren't picking up on.
Papito Qinn Kreia as a character and her philosophy are two of the major reasons I still love Legends far more than the new Disney Canon
The Jedi take the easy way everything is the will of the force and nothing is random our even a choice. Everything has a point but the truth is the force creates as much suffering as its Stops at the cost of the free choice of all people and when you hear the waves of the force you will know the truth at.
The ironic thing is for all her philosophical mumbo jumbo she still can't see the truth. Kreia doesn't hate the Force she hates herself.
@@slyfer60 It can be both.
Kavar: I don't agree with your choice to go to war but I respect you for choosing.
Zez Kai El: Maybe you were right and the Jedi shouldn't come back.
Vrook: NO SHUT UP. YOU ARE DARK SIDE. JEDI AREN'T WRONG, YOU'RE WRONG. adasdfadfghadalk
Yup. Vrook was a cancer on the Jedi in both KOTORs. He wanted to prevent Revan from saving the galaxy again and he wanted to cut off the best hope of stopping the new Sith threat. Arrogant prick.
Angry Leprechaun Vrook and Atris represent the arrogance vanity and hypocrisy of the Jedi Order - traits that are made even more apparent through a Jedi Master like Mace Windu
Silly Vrook and his cheery disposition.
Vrook is only arrogant on the outside, he is actually very wise and was the first master to agree to re-train revan after his memory wipe, also i remember from the book that Vrook is revan's favorite master
@@EricGraham94 nah...Athris angry, of course her beloved leaved her. Master Jedi, my arse, can't even understand herself)
I like that once Kreia showed up, the immediately asked "Is this your new master, exile?" because jedi just loooooove to jump to conclusions and immediately assume anything force-related that they don't know about or are confused by is dark or Sith.
@Kurt Bowser No they weren’t. Maybe in your headcanon, but not mine.
@Kurt Bowser That was before she encountered Surik.
@Kurt Bowser I played the game. It’s you who doesn’t understand. Enslaved by dogma.
Or perhaps you watch movies from SH and DV’s Vorrny Vorrns.
@Kurt Bowser Well, you can say whatever you want too, but I think Kreia was both. Dann you Vrook and DS Bastila, forcing one or the other.
Vrook deserved judgement more than anyone else.
What about the droid attack on the wookies?
@@markcoroneos7811 Who cares? Who needs those useless walking carpets anyway?
@@markcoroneos7811 what about the imperial attack on the wookies ?
He was a total jackass to Revan in KOTOR 1
He reminds me of Mace Windu
6:30 "Because I was leveling up."
Right. It was a pretty clever way of weaving a gameplay mechanic into the story.
Papito Qinn it could’ve been a clever way to explain Rey’s Mary Sue character. That was a theory on RUclips before the Last Jedi was even out.
@@PapitoQinn it could have worked to an extent to give. Her home world is the location of one of the most devastating battles in Star Wars canon.
I was to young to understand what she was saying but even at that young age I knew she was right.
me either :D i only clicked to attack everything :D
Das Institut same. There was something about Kreia - even at a young age when I couldn’t understand philosophy - that knew she was right. Looking back now I made the right choice; it was through Kreia I had to expand my knowledge and see multiple perspectives.
@@EricGraham94 nah she just used you manipulated you like so many other students nihilus, revan
Maybe because in this moment she turned into "grandma says yes" for a solid 3 min. 😂
Misfit that’s the essence of manipulation - it’s persuasion and making people believe a perspective (Kreia’s perspective is that she’s right - not saying she isn’t). How else do you think Palpatine turned the Galactic Republic into the Galactic Empire? Through persuasion and manipulation.
Such a thought provoking game.
Light can blind just as easy as darkness, yes. And it's not light anymore. These Jedi had failed.
After this pinnacle of a game i'm able to play dumb ones only if i choose to.
Kreia synthesis of the force
@@TheGoodLuc they absolutely did. It is almost sickening saving them. Except Vrook. He probably was the only one with any kind of insight that mattered.
@@TheGoodLuc an underrated quote. I salute you.
Leave it to Obsidian to give us another
"You would change us if you stayed. I'm sorry. You're a hero, but you have to leave."
Almost. Unlike the overseer however, the Jedi council did not see you as a hero.
"Killing hundred only to become more and more stronger. Why do you think was that? "
Me: game mechanic!?
LEVEL UP!
- if you spare the jedi , she kills them herself
- if you kill the jedi, she scolds you for it
godamn kreia
Sounds to me like you would really enjoy this one video of mine. ruclips.net/video/RPU0HdOnOKQ/видео.html
She kills them because these old fools refused to see the light,stop being cowardly and hypocrites,changing
When you kill them she’s miffed because it was just shallow revenge
@@Nzg41 very true.
No, the Jedi were going for the Darwin Award.
If you kill them, she scolds you for allowing them to die remaining true to their misguided convictions. Insisting instead that you should have been wise enough to reveal their own mistakes to them and defeat them without striking a blow.
If you spare them, she grows furious with their ignorance in refusing to understand why you followed Revan to war, and how they made you suffer for it.
They were about to cut you off from the Force, believing it would be just that.
She did not kill them directly, she cut them off from the Force, showed them the world "through the eyes of the Exile," and the shock from that is what overwhelmed and killed them, because they could not fathom living without the Force. You however can and did, which is why Kreia is fascinated with you, believing you to be outside of the will of the Force, and the only person who has any true free will as an individual.
I absolutely love that there's an in-game lore explanation for leveling up in this game! It just makes the game so much deeper.
I guess they forgot about the part where you got your first few levels from killing droids.
@@dalenlewin merely getting a grasp on what your physical powers used to be. a general, Jedi or not, would be strong physically surely.
@@matttaylor1996 yeah, that’s true. After all, you would have to be pretty strong to beat up a droid with your fists, or kill it with a regular sword.
"If you had stayed, you would have changed us. And that, we could not allow." Yes. Exactly the problem. The Jedi fear change and try to control it. All life, all facts of life, go through alterations. That is what life is. Change to the essential nature of the galaxy would render the Jedi Masters pointless and antiquated, more so than they were, so of course they rebelled against it. It is ironic that the ones who accused others of being rebels and miscreants were those who rebelled the strongest.
All things change as time goes by and nothing can stop that. The Jedi should know that, new Jedi and Sith are born, grow to power, learn, become strong, die, and are replaced. Old knowledge is maintained, but new knowledge is added, old threats are defeated but new ones rise, and as the universe changes so to must the ones who live in the universe. They can either change as time goes by to better adapt to new situations or they can be swept away by the tides of time. They claim to serve the will of the force, well perhaps the will of the force is that all things change and they must find a way to change, when necessary, in order to adapt to this.
Unfortunately the Jedi of the clone wars have repeated the same mistake
Agreed.
It isn't change nor lack of control that the Jedi fear. They fear feelings, ideals, motives... And with good reason. Don't mistake me saying that feelings are the cause of falling to the Dark Side, no, it isn't as simple as that. Recall that every instance of Force premonitions comes from feelings, and any sort of emotion, of any kind, be it reassurance that you're in control of your feelings, or lust for power, both are feelings. Both, and all others, are subject to the whims of the Force.
Hell, just look at the scene above. Look how easily the other masters are swayed. All because when Force Sensitives gather, the influence the Force can exert on them is greater. They aren't in control, they're just puppets. Let me paraphrase Kreia for a bit: "Know how to strike so that the ripples created only affect what you wish". And when has the ocean ever been a calm and malleable *Force*? When have we ever not been subject to the whims of the waves? Ride the waves and on the surface like a Jedi, or dive deep, dark, and down, like the Sith, you are subject to the whims of the ocean. And sometimes, those who dive, are spat back out at the surface, and more often than not, those who ride the waves are swallowed, despite their intent, motive or feelings on the matter.
The Force leeched itself so deeply into life that the difference is simply indistinguishable for the 99.99999999999%.
And letting seeing the difference... truly seeing it... is death.
So I leave you with this: which, exactly, is the problem?
Yep “apathy is death”
"A war of conversion"
It adds SO MUCH to the bipolar KOTOR script. It's no longer dark side vs light side. KOTOR2 did more for Revan that KOTOR1.
It seems like a lot of people who want Revan canon don't realize this. The Revan we know only exists because of KOTOR 2. KOTOR 1 really didn't tell us all that much about him.
@@PapitoQinn KOTOR 1 got us to know Revan on a more personal level (being privy to his thoughts and all) while KOTOR II fleshed out the character's mystery and history.
This. Listening to characters' talk about Revan in KOTOR II was like hearing the exploits of some mysterious historical figure, and you're never quite sure which parts are true or false, save that this person has shaped the world in which you now live.
It's funny KOTOR 2 is a disassembly of sorts of Star Wars because in that it becomes Star Wars.
You people just outlined it.
In KOTOR 2, we have Revan. Powerful, intelligent, and has moved the galaxy.
In the Original Trilogy, we have Vader. Powerful, intelligent, and has moved the galaxy.
In these "2nd" installments, we know little about either, but in the "First Act" we learn about them both and follow their most significant exploits.
@@Aqueox KOTOR II deconstructs not just its predecessor KOTOR, but the entire premise of the Star Wars universe and how the mechanics of the Force work. It doesn't necessarily subvert it for the sake of a counterargument, but rather it forces the players to think more critically of HOW the Force and everything within the universe the Force is interconnected with affects one another. Basically, everything that goes on in Star Wars is VERY consequential, not just a consequence-free space fantasy adventure. It also explores the foundation of Star Wars to its finest details (details we tend to ignore) and enriches it.
As for the similarities between (Darth) Revan and Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader, here's one thing about them that are different. While Anakin Skywalker had a destiny thrust onto him that affected the entire galaxy in his entire lifetime, Revan made bettering the galaxy his DUTY in multiple avenues. With Revan, you get a richer sense of how someone as powerful as him isn't "powerful" in how he can use the Force, but in how he's subtly able to affect the entire galaxy the way he did... from Revanchist leader to Sith Lord to the savior of the galaxy to harbinger of what's to come...
Makes you wonder what the True Sith could of been in Kotor 3. How different they would be from the Sith Empire we got in Swtor.
Apparently they were supposed to be so much more powerful and also evil. They were supposed to be like the Shadows from Babylon 5 they believed in complete chaos and death on a scale probably worse then the Yuuzhan Vong were. And when Revan found them after the Mandalorian wars he was afraid of them because they could easily overrun the Republic and turn the entire Jedi Order to the Dark Side and he believed only reorganizing the Old Republic into his own Sith Empire was the only way to counter the True Sith. They were supposed to be so evil and destructive that they would shake the very nature of the Force and make it bleed like a Wound in the Force and devastated planets like Malachor V are only common to them.
Now this version of the True Sith is more terrifying and interesting then Vitiate's Sith Empire and I wished we got that version and Kotor 3 instead of Swtor.
being fair while the sith Empire is pretty tame in SWTOR, Vitiate himself is not very far from the KOTOR III true sith
To be fair...vitiate really embodied the godlike ancient sith idea I had in my mind
The rest of the empire was the problem
We may get a Kotor 3 with the remaster
They never existed. It was fear mongering, used to justify abuse of power or inaction. Just as the Mandalorian wars were.
@@griffy6175 the sith holocron with atrius mentioned a beacon within a sith planet, then it cuts away. this could be a hint to the sith empire we havent gotten to see
13 minutes of pure Star Wars gold. The Last Jedi can't even compare to this, what a shame.
The last jedi was nothing but poorly writen fan fiction
why bring up the last jedi? the OT cant compare to this.
@@richardbellavance4010
The original trilogy started everything
Yup.
Disney old republic will be bad too
Everything kreia says after "As you would pass judgment on her, I have come to pass judgment on you all" is pure voice acting gold
Never piss off an old woman with creepy atrophied eyes
I just found out that Vrook's voice actor, Edward Asner, passed away yesterday at 91 years old.
RIP Ed Asner
I just realized what made this scene so good here. Kreia, for as annoying and critical she could be of you, comes here to your defense. To show the Jedi they were wrong. It's a time where, even if she almost feels like your enemy, she deeply cares about you.
I always liked her character for that. She's an _actual_ teacher. No matter what you do, she picks at it because it's less about what you're doing than it is _why_ you're doing it. That encounter on Nar Shaddaa, for example. Whether you're charitable or callous, she takes you to task. Because the problem wasn't with you being nice or cruel. The problem was that _you didn't stop to think it through._ To think about how your actions would affect that beggar _or you._ By being _mindlessly_ charitable, you potentially do more harm than good. And of course mindless cruelty just begets more of the same. Either way you cause more problems than you solve. And in this case, either way you draw attention to yourself when you're _supposed_ to be trying to get lost in the crowd.
That's also why the most satisfying answer for her to hear from you in many conversations is "I'll think on this". _Because that's all she wants you to do._ To be an individual rather than a meat puppet for the split personalities of some sociopathic cosmic consciousness. And yet, no matter how proud of you she is or how much you disappoint her in that regard, right up to the end she's still trying to teach you. Because you're _hers._
@@OfficerHotpantsthat’s bloody brilliant dude, what an excellent analysis. I never thought of it like that
@@OfficerHotpantsthat said she does praise you like some actions that can work in a light sided play through like lying to the merc side in dantooine to make them think you are on their side so you can betray them for the good side. Also even causing those dark sided echoes on Nar Shaddaa still won't have you kill Zez, tho he will be pissed at you for doing such but will forgive quickly (almost like the game doesn't know how to handle it smoothly programming wise, you ended the planet darkside but what fully determines the master's fate is your alignment, unlike other planets, so basically it makes it out that he lies he chases after Mira but doesn't actually do so instead of doing it or not) and you do speed-run the planet's pre jekk jekk tarr's parts quickly in mere minutes, which is what Kreia wanted you to learn from there.
but yeah she can be a bit grouchy, but hey she just wants you to listen in the end at least.
She isn’t lying when she says she loves you
"and at last you saw." Kreia had great lines and Sara Kestelman delivered them perfectly. Powerful the first time I heard them playing the game......equally powerful hearing again years later.
I was shocked to learn Judy Dench didn’t do her voice because of her accent and appearance but she did great
To think this was her first and only voice acting role. Turns out theater actors can make gold.
Thought helen mirren should be the live action kreia
And they killed the Exile like a damn side character on Endor. Jesus Christ SWTOR.
It's pretty disappointing to see the character you built up over hours and hours of deep narrative simply killed off because of a WoW clone
It's really best to pretend SWTOR never happened.
MMORPG's: Ruining it for real video games since 2004.
@@BigUriel this. Best way to approach the SW universe
@@BigUriel I'm way, WAY more pissed at Swtor than than all these sequel hating bandwagoners
@@stargatecommand714 that's likely because you're more invested in KOTOR than in the OT. To my eyes, they are on equal footing of shit. They ruined Luke, Vader, Palpatine, Leia, Han, even the fucking Millenium Falcon in the sequels. And in SWTOR they've ruined Exile, Revan, Kreia and even HK-47.
Fuck them. Fuck them all.
I had always thought that the Exile was never a wound. But rather, that the Jedi Council did not understand what a true leader was. That it wasn't just passive force bonds, but rather that those who saw the actions of the exile admired her, and wished to follow her. Good leaders irl are like that. They have a presence about them that commands respect and alleigance. And that by their example, others are drawn to them.
this scene is so intense. obviously the masters wouldn't have attempted to kill the exile but i felt like something very bad was about to happen
They were going to cut her off from the force. They were too afraid to accept what she proved and what she might do with that truth. The Jedi Masters were afraid of losing power and they were afraid of any questioning of the infallibility of the Jedi teachings. Many people think that Jedi are always right by definition, and the Jedi believe that too.
"Those who gain power are afraid to lose it"
@@PapitoQinn the Jedi and sith are both puppets of the force there can be no right or wrong if their is no own choice at all. which was the thing kreia hated the most about the force and why she dislikes it when people choice for other people.
Papito Qinn these jedi deserved what was coming to them. Thank you Kreia for saving my character
@@noahfessenden6478 even the jedi
Kavar and Zez-Kai Ell: “Okay maybe we went too far in a few places”
Vrook: *WE DID NOTHING WRONG, WE DID EVERYTHING CORRECT*
When she said, “I am tired.” I felt that 💯
Of couse she's tired. She just killed three Jedi masters in just one use of Death Field!
I loved the grandmotherly essence that Kreia had. It’s crazy, because I recently played both KOTOR games and 2 especially hit me the hardest - because of her. I lost my 75-year old grandma to COVID in February 2021, and soon after threw myself further into video games with my grief. Kreia was annoying, always scolding my character (me) but I could tell somewhere in her twisted heart she cared for you. Even though she offered advice at the most vexing times, it was always solid advice and I listened. Great character, I really hated to see it end the way it did.
I'm sorry you lost your grandma.
@@aqeeljupri3516 Thank you. ❤
Kreia is Kreing her heart out in this scene.
Indeed. She's verbing herself.
They devoted themselves to the light. At the very end, each master was willing to give their life to preserve the Jedi Order. Kavar to the Republic, Vrook to the temple, and Kai-ell to the living force. Kreia revealed their flaws. Kavar's resolve was short, Vrook's devotion was empty, and Kai-Ell's judgement was clouded. The Dark side took over each of their goals.
"I have endured your corruption of my other students, you shall not have this one."
god I love Kreia
What is being forgotten here also is if you remember, the exile was being chased by the sith before Kriea found her/him. She kidnapped the exile while she was sadiated and thus tied herself to the exile too awaken the force within her/him to use, because her two former students scion and nihilius stripped of the force. In that she sought to use the exile in destroying the force but never comes to fruitition. What's funny the deaths that occur in the game are necessary and not wholly the doing of the exile (unless you went completely dark side) because you would never progress if you didn't defend yourself, you can't just simply slip away, the game won't let you. So to me, the masters are completely wrong in their judgement of the exile and should have listened to the exile but instead show just how arrogant they really were.
James Taylor it wasn’t necessarily that she wanted to strip the galaxy of the Force; it’s that she wanted living beings in the galaxy to live without the Force and think for themselves. The Force, in a way as Kreia describes it and is in a way true, acts as a deity using everybody like a puppet (almost as if it were stripping free will), setting into motion events that conclude in balance while countless living beings die.
Sion and Nihlus*
Zoe Kin these Jedi are too mired in the old ways, the Lost Jedi will rebuild the order without their failings
Of course they will eventually revert to their former ways (cough cough prequels cough) for a couple centuries the Jedi will be what they were intended to be: people who want balance and peace, not people who fear the Dark Side and things they do not understand
@@EricGraham94 Basically, be glad God plays by one rule, and that is Free Will.
It is why we will never have definitive proof of his existence. It would compromise our Free Will. Our *choice*.
@@Aqueox Amen to that.
I love when kreia say changed.
“Chaaang-dddd”
TASTE JESUS AND KNOW THAT HE IS GOOD
This is arguably the greatest moment in Star Wars History.
“Their lives still scream across the surface of that dead planet” This scene absolutely gutted me as a kid. It made the KoTOR twist feel insignificant. “It’s in you, it’s what you are now”. I didn’t get it was a different developer, and it had a very different tone. One of the most unhappy games I’ve played.
That last line from Bao-Dur always hits a little hard.
"ENOUGH!"
This scene is the perfect example that the Jedi can be villains too
Their arrogance, their egos, and their fanaticism made them forget their main ideals of the Jedi order and that they can become just as terrible as the Sith
It's like the Vatican that supposedly fight for good but let injustices happen
A true Jedi for me is like Jolee Bindo or Qui Gon Jedi who do good things but not let themselves be led by titles or fanaticism
Yes this is true
I consider the Jedi to be arguably worse than the Sith.
@@Vigriff Dude, the Sith blow up planets on a whim.
@@Vigriff Bro Jedi who do good most of time and sometimes drop the ball are objectively better the Sith who kill entire planets and peoples just because they can imao.
Jolee is apathetic and spent decades doing jack on Kashyyk while Czerka enslaved the planet and Malak ravaged the galaxy. Qui Gonn on the other hand worked against all external pressure to try and bring the prophecy of balance to fruition. There is no comparison.
Kreia isn't even an antagonist... not really. The jedi were the sleeper antagonists the whole time. Plot twist!
What do you think of the idea that the force is the game's main antagonist?
@@PapitoQinn In broader strokes all the hardships and conflicts in the game seem derived from the force. If Sion is kept alive by the force it is for a purpose. Nihilis' hunger is of the force.
As much as the force binds, the exile proves that life can exist without it. Nihilus's hunger shows the force's need for life and death to exist... so the force is like a zookeeper or circus to life: capturing it, holding it, and forcing it to do its will.
Rather not edit my post but thought of more... the force seems to be a life farmer, feeding on life and death. It may seem like it has the living's needs in mind as it does, but like a farmer farms meat and animal products (eggs and milk, etc.) i)the force harvests the will, life, and death of those connected to it... on its farm if you will. Just as a farmer provides food shelter and protection for its livestock so does the force by granting powers. A sentient's lack of choice in the matter is no indication of benevolence or an all powerful nature on account of the lack of choice in farm animals. To a chicken on a farm a human is all powerful because that chicken lacks the ability to fight its captors successfully. As far as it knows the chicken coop has always been there, especially in a fully automated farm. Perhaps that is what the force is to living beings... part of a fully automated farm of life forms that bow to its will and feed it.
In this way Kreia and KOTOR 2 are very much like the film Chicken Run. Ever think you'd read that comparison?
@@chickenman7801 Nope. never thought I'd hear those two things in the same sentence. But you may have just given me an idea for a video. Thanks... Chicken man. That name makes total sense now.
@@chickenman7801 my! your theory is rather facinating it definitely fits the lore of the force and gives new insight new perception of the force itself thats why if the force user follow the will of the force they can become one with the force (consumed or assimilated) and the one that deny the force gets the stick like the sith trying to create life then the force retaliated by giving birth to anakin its like an animal that cant be tamed so the farmer use a guard dog to control it. You have my respect sir!
I first played this when I was 13. At the time I was disappointed, in retrospect, I realise now the writing is brilliant. It adds a deeper layer to the force and the jedi/sith dynamic than a simple binary good and evil, it's far more human in my opinion.
Heh! I agree.
Kreia is the most fascinating character in all of Star Wars.
Heh! I agree.
KOTOR2 is Best Star Wars.
ATRAST VALA EXECUTOR
"It is because you were......afraid."-Kreia
"Know that there was once a Darth Traya. And that she cast aside that role, was exiled, and found a new purpose. But there must always be a Darth Traya, one that holds the knowledge of betrayal. Who has been betrayed in their heart, and will betray in turn."
Writing in this game is unbelievable. Every single thing uttered by even the side characters, fall so well into place. And the voice acting complements it all, Kreia, Bao-Dur, Atris, Atton, this is IMHO the pinnacle in the story-driven RPGs, taking its place up there with the likes of early Fallout and Baldur's Gate games.
I'm so curious about the writing process. Like, they had to have a finished script right? You can't write on the fly, just to pick apart star wars and have this kind of quality (cough last jedi cough). But we also know the development hell this game was in, how rushed it was, how they thought they had years but had to scramble and finish it within a year. It feels like Avellone entered the office one day, throw a novel on the table and said 'here, create these characters and make them say these.' So fascinating.
I played this game when I was like around 12, I really didn't understand much of the lore and what Kreia was saying. But when she showed up to save my character from the council, I was like "thank you, grandma!" and immediately pledge myself to her teachings.
Disney would never write something this perfect
Kavar and Zez Kai El were so sympathetic towards the exile, especially Kavar when he admits he wanted to train the exile as his padawan to one day take his place. Then they turned on the exile so quickly here, it's pretty jarring in that sense and probably heartbreaking for the exile that her masters are turning on her again.
Also I just love how they build up the exile and how Darth Nihulus is built up as this arch enemy that only they can defeat. While the masters explain what the Exile is they also explain what Nihulus is(assuming no one talked to Kreia about it).
You were deafen
At last you could hear
You were broken
You were whole
You were blinded
At last you could see
Out of all the Jedi Masters, I respect Zez Kai El the most. I felt like he really "Got" it. When you finally speak to him on Nar Shadda, he says something like,
"Jedi like Exar Kun, Revan and Malak, all fell to the darkside under our teachings... But you were the only one to come back and face judgement, and instead of trying to understand why you did what you did, we punished you. Our one chance to see where we went wrong, and we cast it aside."
Then he essentially left because he felt the Jedi teachings were wrong because nobody ever claimed responsibility for students falling to the dark side. Something we see ALL THE WAY IN THE MOVIES SOME 4000 YEARS LATER!
He outright called out the Jedi order for their bullshit, and never tried to hide behind arrogance. My truck-driver-turned-Jedi boy got done hard.
People point out that the moment he reconnected with Vrook, some of that seemed to change.
@@PapitoQinn I think his interaction with his fellow Jedi was a bad influence on him personally. Peer-pressure so to speak. The Jedi seem to encourage their fellows to think as they do and to shun those who think or act differently to an extent.
@@lordofcreativity9637 And let's just say Vrook has a... strong personality.
@@PapitoQinn That is certainly one way of putting it.
Hulkamania ran wild when it came to realizing the Jedi were dumb
Some of the Kreia scenes still give me goosebumps and even tears of how great the writing and delivery are, even though I’ve seen these scenes countless times. This is one of them. God-level writing
"Maaaan, where's the ACTION?!!"
"... In the words..."
If the sequel trilogy had a plot and characters as interesting as this game star wars fans wouldn't hate Disney.
@Food Forethought people have reasons to hate Disney, it didn't ce out of nowhere. They're responsible for how bad the sequel trilogy was, for trying to use nostalgia in order to hide bad storytelling, they forced a political agenda that the majority of the fanbase were tired to have it shoved down our throats.
What you're trying to do is dismissing any valid criticism agains Disney, Lucasfilm and the sequel trilogy, which are objectively bad movies. Not just bad Star Wars movies, but also bad movies. That's why people look at these games, and everything else that came out before Disney acquired Star Wars, as far better products than anything Disney has put out.
@@ResolvedMC There were too many cooks in the kitchen that couldn't agree with one another on what to do.
This cutscene with the soundtrack and just this moment always gives me goosebumps every time I see it. This game is a masterpiece!
The first theme used is my absolute favorite. The ancient quiet nature of the sith calling to you. The mystery behind you and where you will go lies in your choices.
Re-watching the main plot parts of KOTOR 2, makes me conclude that this game is one of the most complex and philosophical things in SW universe. It is beyond the jedi and sith dichotomy, its about the terrible consequences of war in the winners and losers of if and how it changed them forever. It shows how it is made in different ways and the impact of the consequences in each case. Ultimately the game is the inevitable conflict between all those different views, leading its participants into trascendency, great personal growth and maybe illumination or total mental breakdown, oblivion and death. This made this game a true gem.
“Do you wish to feel the teachings born of the Mandolorian Wars, of All wars, of ALL Tragedies that SCREAM out across the galaxy! Let me show you, YOU, who have forever seen the galaxy ‘through the force’. See it..through the eyes of The Exile..”
(Arren) Kae + Traya = Kreia
BeTrayaL. Only just saw that lol.
When you take this game and compare it to all the then new and unique storylines and ideas that came out of the EU (1991 - 2014), I consider this by far to be the greatest evolution of the old canon. Of all of Star Wars lore even! Perhaps it’s final form even?
This is Largely because of the manner in which Chris Avellone deconstructed the Universe. Instead of tearing the Universe apart and leaving nothing but an empty void, echoing of failure alone and screaming with the voices of the stories lost to us, (The Last Jedi) he chose instead to Peel away the layers of what made up the Universe and questioned it.
While the Masses, the Cattle continue to fall ever further from the true way, we the true Children of the EU have been charged with guarding these stories from those unworthy of them and....
... and I’m pretty much just ranting at this point...
“Oh I grow Weary of this.”
I will be in my chambers.
Atton: "Yeah, me too. I'll be in my *chambers*. Though seeing as I don't have any, I'll just go to the cockpit like I always do."
Sounds kind of elitist at the end there. "from those unworthy of them", so are they not "true" star wars fans?
@@kylescoolclips Edit: Sorry about the text wall. Hope it’s wasn’t too much.
Damn I forgot about this one lol. A slight bit dramatic re-reading it now as I’d probably change it slightly if I were writing this in current time such as calling kotor 2 the greatest thing ever is a bit of an exaggeration. “The MOST?” Short answer to keep the rest of this short: no. “Easily one of?” Absolutely and without a doubt in my mind.
As for the original question of, “what is a True Star Wars fan then?” You misunderstand my meaning as I am referring specifically to fans of the Original Expanded Universe, the only true Star Wars canon I myself will ever know and acknowledge as such. And “the unworthy cattle?” I refer to the ones who blindly hate the EU without having ever explored it or simply experienced no more than a single story or two and ignorantly concluded that the rest of the 20 plus years of stories were “99% bad” while they simp for the vastly inferior mouse canon as it ironically continues to use poorly adapted EU elementals.
Still though, I suppose I’ll still answer the question of “what is a true fan in general” simply to give what I believe to be the definitive answer to this question. (Would love to include people who have seen only the ST here but sadly however that’s only a personal opinion of my own which wouldn’t technically count.)
In short, a “fake fan” would be someone who actively threatens real life actors, writers directors, creators etc (people in general basically.) This could easily apply for most things in general of course but no less true. Constructive criticism is one thing but harassment and death threats are never ok.
With all of that now said and out of the way, I could end it here if not for one last question I feel compelled to answer also and it is that of elitism. Would I consider myself an elitist?
Try to see it from my side. You’ve been a Die hard fan of the EU for as long as you can remember. Now imagine it being swept under the rug a few years later. It and it’s own longtime fans now find themselves neglected and ridiculed by the puppets who now run Lucasfilm. Replaced by an far inferior continuity to the original which you soon find to have zero interest in and have no desire to talk about, you find you can’t escape from either it or the casual apes who who will crucify you for disagreeing with their senpi mouse overlord. Imagine trying to have conversations purely about the old EU only to always have some condescending disney bs slither it’s way into the convo.
It continues to the point where you finally end up making your own specific Community purely dedicated to only talking about the EU and ironically enough still sometimes falling victim to bringing up mouse wars. Hell, even you’ll do it at one point or another just to comment on something and that’s why you need to take up the practice of gatekeeping from time to time just to stay on topic and true to your goal of preserving the EU pre 2015 (that and head canonizing out TCW since we believe it works better either with disney canon or just on its own but that’s a whole other rabbit hole entirely and you’ve probably been reading for a long time now and I feel like it would probably be even more overkill to continue from here.)
So in conclusion having said what I’ve said, I guess the answer would have to be yes. I suppose my experiences have basically made me somewhat of an elitist it would seem and I’m not ashamed to admit that as it’s simple who I am and not everyone will agree which is totally ok.
@@theriseofdaddypalpy7876 wow, I didn't expect such a detailed response, but it's fine. I don't disagree with you. It's sad how with the different generations of star wars fans, you have people who have very different images in their heads of what they love about star wars, because they only care about selective parts of star wars media. Anyone can be a star wars fan, but that doesn't mean diehard fans have to like and agree with everything and everyone
It is amazing that the climax of this game is delivered entirely through dialogue. Avellone is a master of his craft.
You can say that again.
Preach
Baldur’s Gate and KOTOR turned games into a deep journey into the self.
Kreia is one of my favourite legends star wars characters, we need more like her.
She's a little bit Canon now because her voice Sith holocron Star Wars rebels
They need to make live action movies for knights of the old republic one and two people would've LOVED seeing the special effects
I think there's too much going on in these games to condense them into films. TV shows might be better. But even then it might be best to tell unique stories within the old republic era.
9:13 is the best part
Peter Parker when that music came on *step away from her*
I’m talking about Vrook getting clapped
Yeah screw that guy. I do everything in my power and succeed in saving the natives of dantoine from forces beyond their control and he has the gaulle to call me a warmonger, arrogant, blind to the world around me. While he as always sat and did nothing because he believes in "patience"
It is funny because Kreia didnt kill them. She just severed the Jedi Master's connection with the Force and since they were dependent on it they died, thus proving Kreia right...
“Die?” NO. Became *stronger*? YES.
The score of this game is absolutely beautiful. Maybe the best individual score to a Star Wars movie/game/TV show etc aver made.
It's just impressive how good the voice acting is in this scene. Kreia is obviously great here but you can't overlook Vrook. His arrogant, condescending demeanor made me hate him immediately, and I've never even played the game. Watching Kreia throw him on his ass twice and then verbally castrate him is incredibly satisfying. They draw their weapons and strike battle poses, and Kreia just stands there, unperturbed, and calmly, but definitively calls them out on their bullshit.
KOTOR 1 and 2 might be the best star wars games... great plot, mechanics, and a breath of fresh air for not having a single storm trooper in sight
* easily the best Star Wars games
The best scene of all game and, maybe, of all SW Universe. And Jedi stand in all their "beauty" - arrogant blasted fools afraid of their own shadows. Kreia went victorious out of this engagement - in this matter she were right and her teachings true :)
What a shame that such fascinating story was simplified to black-n-white "jedi council - good, kreia - bad" to fit in the later writing about the forces of good against the great evil with such trivial name as Sith Emperor :)
That's what I keep hearing, but I never played The Old Republic, and probably never will. My MMO days are behind me. Her teachings, or at least some parts of them, found their way into the new continuity it seems. Although in a much more sanitized and simpler fashion I suspect. Disney is trying to make a movie after all, not film. They can't have people walking out saying: "What happened? What were they talking about? Where am I?"
I ain't a MMO player myself. But what I had read on wookiepedia convinced me that I do not want to know what came next. It destroys the story and ruins the immersion.
The mmo is trying to tie KOTOR's story with that of its own, but you'll find it very unsatisfying... I have played ToR and it wasn't what I expected for a continuation of this amazing story. Sadly, KOTOR 1,2 end with the 2nd installment. I would love a KOTOR 3, but seeing who would deliver it, I'd rather just picture that the Exile found Revan and together they saved the galaxy and redeemed everything they ever wronged together.
The only way I would ever want another KOTOR installment is the way I would ever accept another Fallout installment. If Obsidian is allowed to take it up. And this time if they are given the proper funding and time to make the damn thing. Every time they're given a project, it's always crammed and poorly funded and always results in them losing people because of it. The publishers should be arrested for mistreating those guys, imho
Zets' Tube the exile died, and revan was imprisoned. Sometimes the protagonist doesn’t win and I liked that. I do think revan should’ve been the one to kill vitiate in the end but oh well. I personally think vitiate is one of the best villains I’ve ever seen. He was far more than a older version palpatine .
KOTOR 2 is one of those sequels that upstage the previous one. The story, the characters, every lesson Kreia gives are some of the best in the SW universe. Some of the best work by Obsidian
They're out there. Arkham City, Half Life 2, Godfather 2.
But to do so against Bioware’s KOTOR is quite impressive. This story makes the original KOTOR’s story look like trash in comparison
If only the game wasn't rushed towards the end. Another year it would've been amazing.
The goosebumps I remember watching this convo, hell the goosebumps I get now, when you hear during the conversation from Visas, “I sense a disturbance in the force” anyone in Star Wars saying that, you KNOW something’s gonna go down.
The whole scene, the whole game is incredible.
My goosebumps had goosebumps.
Best scene in the base game. Full of such dense writing and fascinating discussion.
Wasn't too keen on the restored content mod version of this - it dispersed this scene with to many other moments going concurrently and I feel badly disrupted the pacing.
This scene is best as a single, long, self-contained scene whereby it's consequences and concurrent moments become apparent during its aftermath.
Kreia's teaching should be a lesson to us all...
the fact that all jedi wear the robes of a tatooine moisture farmer always bugged me
It was on sale
Vrook's death was so satisfying
Video game writing just doesn’t get better than this, it cannot get better, this is the epitome of excellence
Damn this has got to be the single most amazing game ever written. Nothing else can even hope to compare. I have played this game from day one. I probably have a couple thousand hours in the game. I played in on the Xbox, then I got in on the 360, and had it on PC, mods and everything forced my hand and I went fully into PC gaming. I had (still have, but don't use) the game on it's original multi disk pack. Then I got it on Steam years ago and the free update that was available on there is amazing. Now I need my fix. I am currently downloading this game via GOG, I only hope it is still the updated version.
All that, all those hours and days and years of game play. I have beat the game full dark, full light, grey and all. I have turned every non-droid follower into a sith, made each one a Jedi and even left them all to their own devices. I have played this game a ridiculous amount is my point and there is still some parts of the story I maybe haven't seen. There is still some checks I may have failed and not triggered some of these scenes. This is why I just bought the game again on GOG.
Die Hard Fan
Have you learned the true lesson of strength? That is some amazing dialogue I figure not even 5% of all players ever saw. If you haven't you should go for it, you need hanharr influence and to REALLY understand what Kreia is all about.
"It could mean the end of The Force, the end of the jedi. It is of no consequence."
Ed Asner why you acin' cray-cray?
Interesting. Like you said, the other scene is legendary so hard to to anything new with it.
Very much my favourite scene of the game i think but this added some character
I love how they tied the game mechanics and story all together. The XP you gain with each kill is literal. You kill and take their force and add it to your wound. Your Level goes up and you can coerce your crew mates more and more. You literally get people to follow you with every step you take.
Mira is a pacifist who avoids killing. Until she’s with you, then she’s compelled to kill and by the hundreds.
"Do you wish to feel the teachings born of the mandalorian wars? Of all wars, of all tragedys that scream across the galaxy? Let me show you! You who have forever seen the galaxy through the force, see it through the eyes ot the exile."
Now that's one hell of a reality check. Imagine grinding for years to be a master only to find put you're just a Force junkie.
And there's no rehab in the entire galaxy for that.
This woman needs a movie!
I mean "The philosophy of Kriea" has been out for some time.
Star Wars Theory could had made something amazing out of it, i'm sure.
@@comraddisc2783 As much as I like him... no, he has a naive and biased view of SW. He doesn't dwell in so many shades of grey, nor in any of Kreia's complexity. He's here for the flare more than anything.
@@liaml.e.5964explains why i got an uncomfortable response from him
The Exile and Kreia are both just such badasses. They are so much more powerful and wiser than both the Jedi who look down on them and the Sith that see them as vermin. The Exile felt the pain of thousands crash down on him all at once, severed himself from the force, and still he walks. The Jedi masters couldn't last one second without the force and died from instant shock.
Milo Surik… so deeply and *terrifyingly* powerful, like Kreia, except his exterior is the same as the interior, unlike Kreia.
I’m sorry but this was way too good to not have a part 3. Idk what happened, I liked part 2 even better than 1
I love this scene, especially when Kreia storms in.
Star wars writing at its best.
i just realized this after watching this again and again :
they followed you, without question or hesitance" "against their instinct, and sometimes against their sense". These 2 dialogues (and more) hits the mechanic of the Exile making all the big choices, which in turn affect them through their force points, turning our party members into the dark side or light. Our choices literally affect them story-wise and mechanic wise. yeah they will call us out at times but ultimately they will follow us because we are the MC of this game.
That also explain this 1 thing : spec your party members with bullshit stats and equipment, like turning Briana or The Blind One into Blaster users despite their early spec in melee lightsaber, or spec Kreia full Strength stat (this is probably a stretch LOL)
I just wanted to say that I love you for uploading all these clips
I love you for watching them.
One line that I think gets buried under the sheer number of beautiful lines here...
"It is not as it was..."
"But perhaps, that is for the best."
Given everything we learn about the Masters, I really do wonder whether things would have gone down this way without Vrook.
This 13 minutes right here is some of the best Star Wars content ever written. Smart, subtle, thematic, and full of emotion. Incredible story telling from a video game.
My favorite moment in all star wars, hands down, nothing comes even close to this.
I just noticed, kreia is always neutral alignment, both in the character menu and when using force sight, but when Visas sees her Kreia is already becoming more dark side. Perhaps Kreia knew the jedi masters were gonna misjudge the situation yet again and that she needed to harness something more evil to teach them a lesson on losing the force. Or perhaps Kreia was cloaking her alignment all along, only now showing it. The first theory is more likely IMO but I'm wondering what you think @papito qinn
Or perhaps she used it as a cover so that nobody would kill her, or was given an order that she obeyed.
Or perhaps she drew on either alignment to her convenience.
This is well written female character, that I love, respect and admire, not crappy Rey
1:47, i love how she avoids the cliche line of "trust in the force" because of how she despises the force, she wants least for anyone to trust in the force, shes always wanted people to trust in themselves. so fucking goooood
"What you carry may mean the death of the Force… and the death of the Jedi"
At first I was wondering why Vrook put those two together. Then after Kreia punishes the council, I realized these council strongly believed (dogmatically) Jedi is nothing without the Force. Thus, proving Kreia's point (Her conversation with atton rand) correct.
How is that dogmatic? The purpose of the Jedi is to give their very life in service to the Force. OF COURSE they are nothing to the Force. In fact, reality itself is dependent on the Force since it binds everything together and maintains natural order.
@@vetarlittorf1807 Because the Jedi are _supposed_ to serve a set of ideals. Not serve the Force. They'll readily claim as much. "Keepers of the peace". "Defenders of the innocent". "Guardians of balance." Etc, etc. The loss of the Force would be a terrible blow for them for how useful a tool it is but those ideals would be unaffected. Nothing would be stopping them from continuing to pursue them. For the death of the Force to be the death of the Jedi would require that _the Force_ be their _true_ heart & soul, and all the rest nothing but window dressing. A bunch of pretty crap to make themselves look & feel good.
@@OfficerHotpants They don't view the Force as a tool, the Sith do. The Jedi need to be connected to the Force in order to be able to listen to its will. The ability to use its power is not a privilege, it's a responsibility. They use it to carry out the will of the Force.