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Morality change and evolve over time, but Human being living in society share moral values, we are human beings and share comon traits. So there will always be a morality that surpass our subjective morality. There is a subjective mrolaity, there is an objective one (although it is ever changing upon material conditions.) and dominant one inscribe within teh super structure. You coudl argue that what Christians call Shalom or god peace is objective morlaity because rather than being a set of rule set in stone, it is rather a set of principle. True justice heal society and do not limit itself to mere punishement of the criminals..... Of course pragmatism should be ignored, as Mahciaveli demonstrated our world is often not yet perfect enough for those principle to be fllowed and applied by the letetr. Therefore Shalom is more lik an end gaol of a complex plan involving multiple manipulation. This why Socialist (who own a lot to christian philosophy even if they are hardcore atheïsts) are ready to kill to achieve their goal. Scheming and planning...
14:26 I agree with 99% of your videos on Kriea but for 1%. For years you've had the same position on morality with the same flawed reasoning. You simply assume that morality is subjective. Then you make a statement that 'people disagree on morality' and conclude it is subjective. This is circular reasoning and is classified as a logical fallacy. See if someone stated that science is subjective, then pointed out that scientists disagree and then concluded that science is subjective, they too would be committing the same circular reasoning fallacy. You would probably disagree with this person because you don't accept the assumption that 'science is subjective', however because you think it's acceptable to assume morality is subjective and you yourself see it as 'reasonable' to build a circular argument, you don't see your own flaws. If your first premise is the same as your conclusion then you are cheating. Over the years you repeat the above. I have never seen you in any of your videos actually ask what are the conditions in which morality could be objective. Then analyse those conditions and offer why they may or may not work. For you, it's a straight assumption that morals are subjective with a follow up that 'people disagree on morals' and conclude 'morals are subjective'. It's completely one sided. I don't think you even have looked at philosophers who defend objective morality. The guy without a username 'dot' has studied a field called metaethics. Have you ever looked into it? Metaethics? Dot mentions it in your life streaming on rare occasions. There are numerous positions on objective morality in that field. If you don't understand what someone means by 'objective morality' then you will be misrepresenting their position. As this is a video on manipulation, if you don't understand why someone thinks morals could be objective then you won't understand how they 'think' in moral situations. So you would be unable to predict them because you don't understand their ideas. In conversation you would have a hard time persuading them because again you don't understand them. Whether morality is subjective or objective my issue with you is your completely one sided on the subject. 14:30 'It only takes one person to disagree to turn something that is unverifible into an opinion'. That is an extreme statement. There were many verifible positions that were once unverifible.We once believed the earth was the centre of the universe with the sun rotating around the earth. At that time we didn't have the technology nor methods to vierfy what the case was. However, reality is reality even if today we don't understand something does not mean that it is a purely subjective thing. Eventually Galileo verified that the earth rotated around the sun and that the church was wrong. If you assume something unknowable is 'subjective' then that can hold you back, it can hold back a society or even a species. Consistency between people is not a conidtion that 'objectivity' requires to meet. Objectivity is by definition a thing that exists independently of the state of mind (perspective) people have. If morals are objective then like science or any other academic subject, you can't prove its subjective because people disagree. People can be wrong. The relevant question is 'why could they be wrong' NOT 'they disagree therefore its a matter of opinon, there are no answers only perspectives'.
@@darthrevan3342 I've read 11 positions on objective morality of which 8 are presented by atheistic thinkers. You didn't cover those positions. To add there is still a lot of work I haven't read in metaethics. My point was that Papito hasn't looked into these positions and that as a conseuqnece he is being one sided. As for your description of objectivity , it is not very good but please do not take offense. I will explain and through this explanation I may offer you something of interest. If morals exist and are derived from objectivity then this is referred to as moral realism. The philosophy is structured as follows: 1) Morality is cognative i.e. statements can be true or false. 2) Morality is objective i.e. true or false statements are verifed by facts and 3) depending on the argument morality is universal or absolute - for clarity absolute morals never change and universal values are a mix of absolutism and relativism. For example utilitarians believe that maximising wellbeing is an absolute however the moral action you take to achieve that goal is relative to the situation. So this eliminates subjectivism because you cannot kill someone at random because you personally enjoy it, then lie to those who catch you committing the act by claiming it wass comitted to maximise wellbeing because you would be wrong. This also prevents extreme absolutism in which circumstances are ignored. Step 2 is what people in society fixate on without understanding the full picture. For step 2 there are 3 types of moral realists. 1) Supernaturalists: God or a higher power is a source of objectivity. 2) Non-naturalists: that morals are based on non-natural facts and 3) Naturalists: that morals are derived from natural facts. Then you get philosophers who offer moral realist arguments that mix positions 1 and 2 or 1, 3 or 2,3 or 1,2 and 3. Papito should be looking at this field. His failure to do this means hes doing something 99% of the public do, assume morals are subjective and not bother looking at the other side. From studying metaethics I have increases my skills in deductive reasoning, my analytical thinking, my ability to convey complex ideas, its helped expand my creavity. He misses out. It is not enlightenment to observe disagreements between people. It's an obvious observation that requires little to no thought.
“Luke, you’re going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view. The truth is often what we make of it; you heard what you wanted to hear, believed what you wanted to believe.” - Obi-Wan Kenobi
This is quite possibly your best one yet! And the editing certainly is a huge step up; the audio, the quality, the design... *chefs kiss* - Great stuff!
"So many things that are often taken as fact are just someone's opinion." Bravo. This sentiment reminds me a of the arguments in Edward Said's book Orientalism. Nice essay!
Kreia’s manipulation’s through the game strengthens those willing to learn. Those who forsake the truth in favor of things such as power or arrogance pay the price being undone by true power - knowledge. This includes the entirety of Nar Shadda, showcasing the ability to change the world’s way of life itself. To setting events into motion so the council would see Meetra only after she was fully developed. Using lies to lure Darth Nihilous to a dead world, and forcing Atris to realize her fall. I feel Kreia had wished for Atris to take over the role of Darth Traya, since she didn’t want to align to either side of the force. And the final manipulation, being Darth Traya herself. Why was Darth Traya necessary? Because she made sure Meetra developed in full before she faced the Sith Lords, the 3 perversions of her philosophy. Nihilous, who only saw Kreia’s training as means for power, undone because that power was beyond his control. Sion, who relied on the force to live, undone because he relied on the force to live not rooting his power in the physical realities of the galaxy. And finally Traya, the ultimate perversion of Kreia’s teachings. For all her hatred of the force, Kreia understood the importance of Meetra regaining her connection to the force. As Atris said after her defeat, Traya’s plan would likely kill life in the galaxy. She trained Meetra, not so she could forcibly strip the galaxy of the force. She wanted Meetra to teach others strength, true strength. Not blind reliance to the force, but rather a new order of force sensitive beings trained to follow the more physical realities of the world.
"Life before Death, Strength before Weakness, Journey before Destination." -The First Ideal of the Knights Radiant. How you do something is just as important as the outcome, though I do agree, the Jedi take it too far. As the say in Spiderman; "With great power comes great responsibility." The Jedi shirk their responsibility, and thus people suffer when they need not have, if the Jedi stepped up. Great video! While I disagree with some of it (or at least, how some of it sounded like you were saying), I respect your opinion.
At the end of the game Kreia admits that she 'used' the Exile (manipulate if you will) from the moment they first met. I've always had mixed feelings about that and now I know why. I think Kreia says it best, "The ability to fool the minds of others, to dominate them on a massive scale is not best achieved through raw power, it's done through teaching, through example." And this is exactly what she does to the Exile. Kreia 'uses' her by teaching her, and, in my opinion at least, the Exile benefits as a result. The phrase 'uses' has a negative connotation to it in this context but when you chose to see it through a more neutral view then you can welcome all the positive parts of the action as well. Insightful video as always! Hope you make more
I'm late to the party, but I want to point out that while Kreia uses the term "manipulate" or "manipulation," Palpatine uses an entirely different term. Palpatine uses the word "influence." "He could even influence the midiclorians to create..life." I just wanted to mention that distinction, because even though they are both using different words with different meanings, they are referring to the same act and the same ends to those means. From a certain point of view.
I wonder why Palpitne references manipulation as influence. Is it because of his reverence to the Force ? The Sith's view on the Force is that while it is meant to be harnassed and controlled, it still deserves its respect and praise.
The quality of your videos, your oration, your analyses has markedly improved. All from the desire to better understand and propagate a fictional character brought to life by writers, a voice actress, and pieces of philosophy. You yourself have grown from this inspiration. You help this echo travel as far as it can.
Kreia taught me some of (if not) the most important lessons I've ever had the pleasure of learning from a video game, of all mediums. Kreia isn't just a video game character, she is a philosophy in and of herself. She denounces animalistic urges of violence. She advocates for everyone to be as human as they possibly can. Higher powers be damned, the self is more important than the collective. If the collective all felt the same way as this, they would all be stronger for it. But she also understands the need for "imbeciles and fools". Not all can rise to power, it is the weak that allows others to lead and demand obedience (whether their intentions be positive or negative). No one likes feeling like a tool, to be used, shaped, or manipulated, but this happens on a daily basis everywhere to everyone. That is reality. Everyone has their own agenda, their own goals and dreams. To achieve your dreams, sometimes you must manipulate others to share that same dream and make it their own (or at least make them feel as if it were their own). How you manipulate others and bend them to your way of thinking is what determines morality. Often times, as Kreia said, it is better to strike at the focal point with a scalpel's edge than to break it open with brute strength. The Sith view only raw power and respect as the main goal a Sith should have, and to manipulate, you must carry the biggest stick. The Jedi on the other hand have the patience to strike the correct chord with a scalpel's blade, yet they do not have the ambition or conviction to do it.
Wait till you hear that Rian Johnson is a huge legends fan and that all the things that "broke the lore" in tlj were pulled from legends ::D Like the lightspeed ram was first done in the old republic xd (There's a reason RJ and Dave Filoni get along so well)
When I think of manipulation I think of how our senses manipulate our surroundings and perception of what reality is. Not inherently negative, but something to be conscious of. However in regards manipulation is also something we consciously do often to subtract from something that hinders us or impedes us, but doesn't necessarily mean its negative.
What? How does your senses manipulate your surroundings? That makes no sense man. I feel like you are just trying to sound deep. If anything your senses manipulate you. If im daltonic my senses could make me think that the sky is green, tho its not.
@@Ridisword Yeah poor wording, but that is what I meant our senses manipulate our perception of our surroundings and can only be confirmed of its accuracy via itself. Sorry English isn't my first language.
@@Ridisword You are dependened on your senses to be aware of your surroundings. Your senses are flawed so how accurate is your preception of reality? Thats the point of the statement above.
Fantastic work. I always found it interesting how individually the masters seem much less stuck in their ways and high minded, and even remorseful about their past mistakes, but once you get them together they just go right back to their same old judgement and inaction. As if the state of them being together, or acting as a collective inherently reinforces their flawed and outdated teachings. Which would make sense, I guess when you're on your own and faced with your mistakes, you're more likely to accept them and change, while with a bunch of others guilty of the same stuff, it's easier to get that approval from one another that you never did anything wrong and were right after all.
I find it absolutely amazing that you use Deus Ex music, Kotoe 2 and deus ex are my favorite games and favorite soundtracks, I never thought anyone else would think of the two together :))
Manipulation is often considered a negative thing because we associate it with people who use it, well, NEGATIVELY, i.e.: internet/gamer trolls (at least the hateful kind), politicians, corporate higher-ups. I like Kreia's way of framing the word: "awakening others to the truth of what you believe, of hearing it echoed around you in life." Her definition of the word is rather broad, so there are multiple avenues for which manipulation is achieved. But it's done best by "targeting the critical point within the fractured mass." It's a rather strategic and analytical skill, indeed. That's why certain military strategists might succeed in a siege; instead of sending in a large military force, which can potentially be a waste, they capitalize on using a weakness against them. It's essentially about subverting your subjects' playing field and not playing into their strengths.
Damn this was good. Can I just say love how this channel has grown, and seeing you Papito growing yourself, widen your perspectives and learning has been wonderful. I remember in early days of this channel how you wanted to be more comfortable with your voice by doing daily livestreams and talking with the people in chat. Going from a bit unsure to more confident. I was rewatching the Conundrums playlist and could hear the change with each video. Again this was so good, but goes to show manipulation is a neutral term, growing can be a manipulation or alteration of moving from one state to another. I think Kreia expanded the term for everyone, stripping away the mostly negative connotation. Anyways great vid as always.
_"If God really didn't exist, then it would be necessary to invent him; and if God really did exist, then it would be necessary to get rid of him"_ -- Voline/M. Bakunin
It's crazy the amount of times I've told someone how morality is subjective and based on personal perspective and they have outright tried to deny it is astounding. People really want to believe the world has a defining line on what is good and evil just so they can feel "morally superior". Yet their actions could easily cause problems for someone else, and from that person's perspective, the "morally superior" one is actually the "bad guy". A big argument I see a lot is when it comes to the death penalty. I am fortunate to not be in a country where that is an issue. Yet I still see many commoners asking for it. Some see criminals as outright all bad, and blindly believe laws and authority without question. Brainwashed. Others will chime in and say they disagree with the death penalty but still want it for the "worst offenders" like murders and rapists. But then you have me, where I believe that no matter who and what they did, they can be rehabilitated. Yes the "criminal" may have done something most people consider "bad", but the "criminal" may have an entirety different view on things. Rehabilitation can be seen as using manipulation to heal. From the outside attempting to conform someone's views may seem wrong, especially if that system they are conforming to is corrupt and bereft of freedom. However it may be necessary for continuation of a functioning society. As Kreia says "It is a far greater victory to make another see through your eyes then to close theirs forever". Yet, somehow people still believe their views are superior. Now don't get me wrong I don't wish to hold mine to be superior to theirs. But it amuses me how many believe killing to be bad, yet perceive it as good when someone kills for them. Proving the point that morality is subjective.
Samli Objective morality means that a moral belief can either be objectively right or wrong. It's metaethics, its concerned with what morality is 'made of' or where morality 'comes from'. It's not a set of rules that someone believes is superior. If someone tells you they think morals are objective then they are telling you that if you disagree with them over an issue they could EQUALLY be as wrong as you. Hence they will debate/discuss with you why you disagree because they 'could be wrong' based on an objective criteria. So you're misrepresenting what objective morality is about. Also what you raise can be a problem for subjective morality. If morals are subjective then I can proclaim my morals are superior to yours. As that is metaethically an opinion which has no criteria, you can't tell me that my morals are not superior to yours. It's my opinion. Also you telling people that 'morality is subjective' is an assertion not an argument. Christains tell me the earth is 6000 years old. I reject their dogmatic assumptions that lack reasoning and evidence. People rejecting you for walking up to them and saying 'hey guys morals are 1000% subjective coz I say so' is far from crazy. Only a gullible lazy thinker will swallow what someone else tells them to believe.
@@MapleGlazedDonuts I've read it. I've looked at both analytical and continental works of philosophy. Nietzsches work pre-date the field of metaethics but his ideas obviously act as precursors to the establishment of the field. So my objection to Samli misrepresenting people stands. He has no right claiming that people who disagree with him think they are superior. Character assignations are a fallacy..
Let me preface what I'm about to say with the fact that I love these videos, your content, and your in-depth character analysis of Kreia. I too, love Kreia's character and think there is much wisdom to be learned from her. But I can't help but noticing something I feel it is important to share, even if I am wrong. Kreia is not unlike the force in the way that she perceives and acts throughout the game. Allow me to explain. Kreia says that the force manipulates the galaxy to bind it to its will, to achieve some goal that none are privy to. Kreia hates this, and she wants to free the galaxy from this all-powerful manipulation that causes countless wars, allows life to prosper on some planets but not others, and creates a seemingly semi utopian society. The force is neither all good nor all bad, but it cannot be argued that it does not manipulate to achieve its goals. However saying all this, is Kreia not doing the same thing? The very thing she hates about the force is the very way she acts herself. How she sees others, how she makes choices and takes action, is all to achieve her goal of bringing down to force. I know that it is often easy to see other's faults and be blind to your own, so perhaps this is excusable to an extent. But I don't think it is excusable entirely. If I've learned one thing from Kreia, it is that to believe in an ideal is to be willing to betray it. So while I may learn much from Kreia, she is also not a teacher that is safe from being wrong, or her teachings safe from being flawed. I don't think everything she practices or preaches is necessarily right, as saying so would put her on a pedal stool as some sort of god, which I would hate to see. With that being said, thank you for continuing to make these videos and create discussion. I truly value my time watching these videos and exploring these topics as a whole. Hope this comment was able to brighten your day to anyone who read this
Of course she is. There's a time and place for fighting fire with fire. And manipulation is Kreia's greatest talent. To not use it would mean to likely fail.
Ah yes, the game is so deeply layered! It's true how many things are just tools. They aren't inherently good or bad, what matters is how they are used.
Great video! I had been looking for the clip where Kreia talked about manipulation and I was glad to see this pop up in my feed. Keep up the great work!
Man, what you do is unique. Please don't stop. I'm not telling this in order to praise you. This world needs such people. It's my humble opinion of course ), but keep on going.
Thanks, man. You have no idea how much I needed something like this. I've had kind of a rough weak mentally. Every time I see that new member badge I'm flooded with all different kinds of emotions. Joy, guilt, happiness, fear, etc. I guess I just wish I could offer people the world, but I can't. Still, there's people out there who believe in me more than I think I could ever believe in myself. Thank you!
@@PapitoQinn Let's say the ability to use abilities. Thinking is not popular today, while stupidity is being encouraged. This 100% explains amount of your subscribers. Most people are lazy to think. And I appreciate that you do not chaise for subscribers and continue to do what you do... in a way you think is best.
“When you hear the word manipulation what comes to mind 🔊” For me it’s these things ... 1. Taking advantage/ control of weak minded people for what ever you need them to do or what ever you need them for 2. A polite/ indirect way to get your point across & convincing the opposition to not only take your point into consideration but to lean more to what your saying instead of what there thinking. 3. It’s more or less the way the world 🌍 is run & what it’s based on over all when you really look into it but more time it’s used for badness instead of goodness. Keep up the content I’m subbed & watching ✅
Your personal philosophies make me think of those fun facts about how many people follow a Jedi sort of religion irl and how that doesn’t sound so silly hearing you
Thanks. But I do disagree. I don't deserve more views. You could say that the amount of views I get is the amount I deserve. But the views I get are the views I've earned.
I stopped seeing manipulation as something negative ever since I played "Guardians of the Galaxy: Telltale series". I always associated manipulation to power, so when I saw the good it could do, I kept experimenting on it in other games.
@@PapitoQinn It was towards the end of the video when you said: "When you subscribed to my channel, didn't you judge me and the content I created as being worthy of your time?"
Is there a video anywhere that covers Kreia's conversation with the Exile when you convince Geriel on Nar Shadda to kill himself, to prevent him spreading the 'plague'? I remember something about Kreia being very impressed by this manipulation and you gain a lot of influence from it.
To react to our convictions is to make a choice. To make a choice exacts manipulation. To manipulate means to change life. To deny ourselves this is apathy. And apathy is death.
Manipulation, for me, is always pictured as a pragmatically clothed and clean-looking authoritative being sitting on a chair with a desk and watching screens upon screens of so many simultaneous events all across the miasma of reality and chance, so to see where they *might and should* lead come the end of it.
I think my favorite take away from this analysis is how the Jedi and Sith view winning battles. The Jedi would lose a fight to maintain their morale highground and not risk becoming/replacing what they struggle against. The Sith want victory at any cost as long as they can live or have their knowledge is passed down to a stronger apprentice that would kill them. Kreia would manipulate these two factions while taking from both. Kreia cares about the risk of becoming/replacing the Sith by winning at any cost, so she passes her knowledge onto the exile that she loves because they aren't either of what she hates. She also cares about the risk of the Jedi Order's arrogance and ignorant views and teachings being passed down, and eaves the exile with a hopeful prediction that their friends would train a new order and find inner peace. Kreia's mixed stance on victory preferences is interesting.
"Sometimes it is hard to step aside for meatbags and to see the whole picture from a distant perspective." I can only add to this statement that when you think that you are know everything you automatically become so ignorant that you are shutting your selfe from all things that you could know even more, because if you say that i dont know, so there is a possibility for you to know, but if you know everything you can not know anything else... And the itelligence is the New tool if domination, before it was raw power, itelligence is just how much things you gathered in your head...
@@PapitoQinn well it's another fantastic one, oddly enough I was listening to the audio files for this one the other day and thinking similar things so it was nice to hear another person's view.
I would share this in the "Star Wars is Life" FB group, but i have been banned 4 times for sharing Gina Carano support video. their new rule of "no bashing disney or lucasfilm" rule says more about their "Manipulation" than my attempts at showing them information from a different point of view.
You could get into a conversation about consequentialism vs deontology here. :P Remember while you are correct that "manipulation" doesn't have to be negative, the alternative definition is equally true as well. For example, one could say: "When you think of a 'Drunk' you probably think of someone that drinks too much. Me and this other person think that it means a period of intoxication." Both are correct. Either way. Great video quality, your editing is getting better :) oh, and you're welcome ;)
@Papito Quin Many interesting topics in this video! To a great extent, the perspective on manipulation here expressed seems to be predicated on the assumption that morality is relative, and if that idea was wrong, then it seems that most of the view would not hold up the same. My question: What convinces you that morality is relative?
Everyday human curiosity. That's what did it. There's another episode in this series that might you understand my position on morality better. I don't remember which one though. I think it was "infantile delusions".
@@PapitoQinn I did watch that video! I want to say off the bat that I appreciate your thoughtfulness and style in assembling these videos, and I think you have a talent. At the same time, (since you seemed to invite discussion on it, and I'd love to chat about it) it seemed to me that you contradicted yourself, and made the main part of your case on the basis of a couple of assumptions that, while being popular in many modern circles, are nonetheless highly questionable. What I mean by this is, you say that morality is simply thoughts, and perhaps merely a social construct. And yet you say that we "absolutely should" have some idea of morality, that hopefully most of us would agree lying, killing and war are bad things, and "the best that we can all do is what we think is right". But it seems to me self evident that you can't use words like "should" or "best" or even have a reason to hope that we would agree with basic reasonable standards, unless there is in fact some amount of an objective standard of what is good that exists, which you and the rest of us are (whether consciously or unconsciously) aware of. You used the fact that different groups and cultures have different moral codes as if it were evidence that morality is relative, but did not discuss the equally observed fact that there are common patterns and threads in every single group and culture's moral perspective that consistently relate, and that people in general have many of the general aspects in common as to what he thinks would be a good world in a broad sense, such as health and strength and life. I agree with you that a tree falling in a forest remains a fact whether people observe it or not, and the same is true with morality, because the idea that morality is just thoughts is an assumption which I think defies evidence. Even if people did not exist, I think there is evidence that the earth and life in general being in harmony and peace would be a good thing, and the very existence of such a thing as 'good' is a moral reality. Beauty is not only in the eye of the beholder. It is merely observed and named by the beholder, just as hydrogen is. The fact that perspective varies one's interpretation a certain amount does not change the core of that matter any more than the ancient Greeks ideas of the earth being held up by a giant affected the reality of the matter, or any more than a person's unawareness of radio waves means they do not exist. Morality is observed in a different way than these things, but that does not mean that it cannot be objectively observed, and I think a good dive into the matter will show that it can be. The very fact that you observed that it is important for each of us to have some kind of moral beliefs for us to function well suggests that there is in fact a moral truth that all our beliefs are simply more or less close to, because if there were no such reality, there would be no need for an imitation. And to claim to believe in a set of 'moral beliefs', and yet say that you believe all such beliefs to be no more than thought and opinion is a self-contradiction, because it means that you believe you hold that very opinion in spite of evidence, and that in reality there is no 'right or wrong', thus undermining your own words. In short, I think that the infantile delusion lies not in thinking that an objective morality exists, but rather in telling oneself that you can define morality yourself, while in the back of your mind holding to the contradicting idea that morality itself is an illusion formed by opinion. (Sorry if that is too long, I too am a bit of a philosopher in the way that I think, haha. It would be fun to discuss this further.)
I have 2 points. Manipulation scares the crap out of me. By complimenting someone's work, I appear as a supporter. However, I could be moving the currents that pull this person into my agenda. Not that we shouldn't trust each other, but we all try to gain something in this world. Its the human condition. The fact we think, and have goals. 11:30 Qinn, you are wrong here. The Jedi Council was right to be patient. Look what happened. Nihilus was the literal apocalypse and only thanks to sheer luck that there was a Chosen One to stop him did they succeed. The mandalorian wars were all a trick. Mandalore faces The Emperor and fights the Republic. The jedi sense there is more to the story than the Mandalorians. Revan goes into battle, The Emperor makes him fight the Republic. Demons are spawned in Malachor. Because no one listened to the Jedi.
Kreia is wrong. Even when she is just a fictional character, there are indeed things you can learn from her phylosophy, but she is wrong. She actually contradicts herself. One of the things its criticized about the jedi is that they dennied their humanity and tried to act like emotionless robots, but Kreias the same, she is completly ignoring peoples humanity in her teachings acting again like emotionless robots but unlike the jedi that do it to protect the weak and dont fall to the dark side, she does it to achieve what she thinks is the greater good
In my opinion: Perhaps the trick is not to look at things such as morality like people exist in a vacuum - Sometimes looking at things where each person is simply one of many (yet still an individual among the group) is a route to interesting pondering. As humans are very group based beings, and none can survive alone. This is an infinitely complicated topic to dwell on, so I can't possibly do it justice in a comment such as this (nor if I probably spent a lifetime on it), but: If in one corner of the world for example commonly morals dictate something heinous is allowed - You can examine does "when in Rome" as a thought hold any merit: As that place does not exist in a vacuum. Morality is a constantly developing field in itself too: So you can ask even if something heinous was acceptable once: Was it ever right to begin with? Most likely in the future many things common play today will be seen as backwaters and morally dubious at best..and the mere phenomena of this makes me suspect perhaps a common direction has been chosen out of the merits it holds: Even if sadly not all yet embrace it. Thus: Is it merely an opinion? Asking questions while a skill in itself is far easier than answering them. You can in-fact ask questions all day long: Anyone can do that. Answering them though? That's the tricky part and not something quite as easy. Things are usually at their core ludicrously complicated and the lure of simple answers is a powerful one: Even if it is folly at the end of the day. As for manipulation - Sure you can argue it's just a tool that anyone can do anything with. Why I would see it as something not wise to use though is it's still meddling with things from a position of power from one way or another. And if one learns they were manipulated despite the outcome it can result in an awful lot of negative things: Feelings of betrayal, perhaps rebellion, or a crisis of identity. I suppose I rather let someone choose and view power as something I rather stay as far away from as possible: I know better than to think I am incorruptible by it, and it always does corrupt at the end of the day. Hence, I want none of it. By the very act of writing this I am using my ability to write some musings of mine that came to mind: And actions do have consequences…but I do not want to be the one that makes anyone do anything. If this invokes thoughts in someone: That's their own choice to make. If they want to dismiss this as just TL:DR rambling: That's also their choice to make. And that's why I don't find manipulation to be up my alley. It robs and takes choice out of the equation, or disguises something as a choice when it isn't. Looping back to where I began: Morality. If one's code of ethics and moral fiber is a result of manipulation: Then how strong would that moral structure actually be? I would suspect not very strong. The day they learn any sort of manipulation went on is the day the world shatters for them, and a crisis begins. Choice is everything.
You manipulated me with this comment. And every single person to ever live is a result of manipulation. Our parents, with their strong influence, indoctrinated every single on of us with their teachings, norms, and morals. It's not complex manipulation that they were aware of on the level of Kreia, but it is manipulation nonetheless. My argument is that there's no avoiding it. And since that is the case, let's not squander it.
Just saw the latest Kreia’s Conundrums video, and I really loved the quote, “The Perfect slave is someone who doesn’t even realize that they are a slave”(5:28). It reminded me of Little Finger from Game of Thrones. He wouldn’t just manipulate people with money, but by giving them knowledge that would destroy themselves. He would manipulate people to fight by giving them information that he knows will encourage them. He was one of the best players in the show, and his “knowledge is power” quote, embodies him. This video explains perfectly on what he does and gives great examples on it in the show. GoT is a great series in Season 1 - 4. I highly recommend you watch them before watching. Video - ruclips.net/video/KHsSAz6nRrk/видео.html
@@gabealexander1818 Are you sure we sound alike? I've spoken to him several times, I don't hear it. Oh well. Thanks for the support, homie. I'm glad you enjoyed it enough to watch the older ones. I'm sure you'll be able to see how much I've improved.
Too sad that game doesn't give much room to apply it's wisdom. Actions in Kotors don't have much consequences. As far as I remember, quest endings are directly equal to made choices. Another thing is - when I walk past someone in Kotors, and I see I can help - I just can't move along and not interfere. I just can't. Despite what Kreya teaches and I in general percieve it as wisdom.
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You're taking the steps to a new world my friend May the force be with you
Morality change and evolve over time, but Human being living in society share moral values, we are human beings and share comon traits. So there will always be a morality that surpass our subjective morality.
There is a subjective mrolaity, there is an objective one (although it is ever changing upon material conditions.) and dominant one inscribe within teh super structure.
You coudl argue that what Christians call Shalom or god peace is objective morlaity because rather than being a set of rule set in stone, it is rather a set of principle.
True justice heal society and do not limit itself to mere punishement of the criminals.....
Of course pragmatism should be ignored, as Mahciaveli demonstrated our world is often not yet perfect enough for those principle to be fllowed and applied by the letetr.
Therefore Shalom is more lik an end gaol of a complex plan involving multiple manipulation.
This why Socialist (who own a lot to christian philosophy even if they are hardcore atheïsts) are ready to kill to achieve their goal. Scheming and planning...
14:26 I agree with 99% of your videos on Kriea but for 1%. For years you've had the same position on morality with the same flawed reasoning. You simply assume that morality is subjective. Then you make a statement that 'people disagree on morality' and conclude it is subjective. This is circular reasoning and is classified as a logical fallacy. See if someone stated that science is subjective, then pointed out that scientists disagree and then concluded that science is subjective, they too would be committing the same circular reasoning fallacy. You would probably disagree with this person because you don't accept the assumption that 'science is subjective', however because you think it's acceptable to assume morality is subjective and you yourself see it as 'reasonable' to build a circular argument, you don't see your own flaws. If your first premise is the same as your conclusion then you are cheating.
Over the years you repeat the above. I have never seen you in any of your videos actually ask what are the conditions in which morality could be objective. Then analyse those conditions and offer why they may or may not work. For you, it's a straight assumption that morals are subjective with a follow up that 'people disagree on morals' and conclude 'morals are subjective'. It's completely one sided. I don't think you even have looked at philosophers who defend objective morality. The guy without a username 'dot' has studied a field called metaethics. Have you ever looked into it? Metaethics? Dot mentions it in your life streaming on rare occasions. There are numerous positions on objective morality in that field. If you don't understand what someone means by 'objective morality' then you will be misrepresenting their position. As this is a video on manipulation, if you don't understand why someone thinks morals could be objective then you won't understand how they 'think' in moral situations. So you would be unable to predict them because you don't understand their ideas. In conversation you would have a hard time persuading them because again you don't understand them. Whether morality is subjective or objective my issue with you is your completely one sided on the subject.
14:30 'It only takes one person to disagree to turn something that is unverifible into an opinion'. That is an extreme statement. There were many verifible positions that were once unverifible.We once believed the earth was the centre of the universe with the sun rotating around the earth. At that time we didn't have the technology nor methods to vierfy what the case was. However, reality is reality even if today we don't understand something does not mean that it is a purely subjective thing. Eventually Galileo verified that the earth rotated around the sun and that the church was wrong. If you assume something unknowable is 'subjective' then that can hold you back, it can hold back a society or even a species. Consistency between people is not a conidtion that 'objectivity' requires to meet. Objectivity is by definition a thing that exists independently of the state of mind (perspective) people have. If morals are objective then like science or any other academic subject, you can't prove its subjective because people disagree. People can be wrong. The relevant question is 'why could they be wrong' NOT 'they disagree therefore its a matter of opinon, there are no answers only perspectives'.
@@biogerontology7646 I explain to him teh difference with objective mrolaity and subjective mrolaity and the limits of subjective morality.
@@darthrevan3342 I've read 11 positions on objective morality of which 8 are presented by atheistic thinkers. You didn't cover those positions. To add there is still a lot of work I haven't read in metaethics. My point was that Papito hasn't looked into these positions and that as a conseuqnece he is being one sided.
As for your description of objectivity , it is not very good but please do not take offense. I will explain and through this explanation I may offer you something of interest. If morals exist and are derived from objectivity then this is referred to as moral realism. The philosophy is structured as follows: 1) Morality is cognative i.e. statements can be true or false. 2) Morality is objective i.e. true or false statements are verifed by facts and 3) depending on the argument morality is universal or absolute - for clarity absolute morals never change and universal values are a mix of absolutism and relativism. For example utilitarians believe that maximising wellbeing is an absolute however the moral action you take to achieve that goal is relative to the situation. So this eliminates subjectivism because you cannot kill someone at random because you personally enjoy it, then lie to those who catch you committing the act by claiming it wass comitted to maximise wellbeing because you would be wrong. This also prevents extreme absolutism in which circumstances are ignored.
Step 2 is what people in society fixate on without understanding the full picture. For step 2 there are 3 types of moral realists. 1) Supernaturalists: God or a higher power is a source of objectivity. 2) Non-naturalists: that morals are based on non-natural facts and 3) Naturalists: that morals are derived from natural facts. Then you get philosophers who offer moral realist arguments that mix positions 1 and 2 or 1, 3 or 2,3 or 1,2 and 3.
Papito should be looking at this field. His failure to do this means hes doing something 99% of the public do, assume morals are subjective and not bother looking at the other side. From studying metaethics I have increases my skills in deductive reasoning, my analytical thinking, my ability to convey complex ideas, its helped expand my creavity. He misses out. It is not enlightenment to observe disagreements between people. It's an obvious observation that requires little to no thought.
“Luke, you’re going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view. The truth is often what we make of it; you heard what you wanted to hear, believed what you wanted to believe.” - Obi-Wan Kenobi
Is that from the ROTJ novelization?
@@EricGraham94 Good catch. It’s actually from the movie. Just thought with what he was saying about point of views lined up with this well
@@Melammu0 oh now I see it; it’s a blend of the line from ROTJ and what he said to Ezra in Rebels Season 3
I have waited a long time for this moment, my little Qinn friend
This is quite possibly your best one yet! And the editing certainly is a huge step up; the audio, the quality, the design... *chefs kiss* - Great stuff!
Chefs kiss you say? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!
“Lonnnnng have I waited.” -Palpatine or some shit
Naga Sadow’s Ghost: Get in line, kid.
"So many things that are often taken as fact are just someone's opinion." Bravo. This sentiment reminds me a of the arguments in Edward Said's book Orientalism. Nice essay!
Kreia’s manipulation’s through the game strengthens those willing to learn. Those who forsake the truth in favor of things such as power or arrogance pay the price being undone by true power - knowledge. This includes the entirety of Nar Shadda, showcasing the ability to change the world’s way of life itself. To setting events into motion so the council would see Meetra only after she was fully developed. Using lies to lure Darth Nihilous to a dead world, and forcing Atris to realize her fall. I feel Kreia had wished for Atris to take over the role of Darth Traya, since she didn’t want to align to either side of the force. And the final manipulation, being Darth Traya herself. Why was Darth Traya necessary? Because she made sure Meetra developed in full before she faced the Sith Lords, the 3 perversions of her philosophy. Nihilous, who only saw Kreia’s training as means for power, undone because that power was beyond his control. Sion, who relied on the force to live, undone because he relied on the force to live not rooting his power in the physical realities of the galaxy. And finally Traya, the ultimate perversion of Kreia’s teachings. For all her hatred of the force, Kreia understood the importance of Meetra regaining her connection to the force. As Atris said after her defeat, Traya’s plan would likely kill life in the galaxy. She trained Meetra, not so she could forcibly strip the galaxy of the force. She wanted Meetra to teach others strength, true strength. Not blind reliance to the force, but rather a new order of force sensitive beings trained to follow the more physical realities of the world.
The older I get, the more I realize how unique Kreia is as a character. One of the best characters in fiction IMO
Eh! I agree!
This character deserves way more recognition, such superb writing, honestly some of the best in the medium.
"Life before Death, Strength before Weakness, Journey before Destination." -The First Ideal of the Knights Radiant. How you do something is just as important as the outcome, though I do agree, the Jedi take it too far. As the say in Spiderman; "With great power comes great responsibility." The Jedi shirk their responsibility, and thus people suffer when they need not have, if the Jedi stepped up. Great video! While I disagree with some of it (or at least, how some of it sounded like you were saying), I respect your opinion.
Kreia’s Conundrums has returned! This makes my day.
At the end of the game Kreia admits that she 'used' the Exile (manipulate if you will) from the moment they first met. I've always had mixed feelings about that and now I know why. I think Kreia says it best, "The ability to fool the minds of others, to dominate them on a massive scale is not best achieved through raw power, it's done through teaching, through example." And this is exactly what she does to the Exile. Kreia 'uses' her by teaching her, and, in my opinion at least, the Exile benefits as a result. The phrase 'uses' has a negative connotation to it in this context but when you chose to see it through a more neutral view then you can welcome all the positive parts of the action as well.
Insightful video as always! Hope you make more
Exactly. We're in agreement. Thank you. I hope I make more too.
I'm late to the party, but I want to point out that while Kreia uses the term "manipulate" or "manipulation," Palpatine uses an entirely different term.
Palpatine uses the word "influence."
"He could even influence the midiclorians to create..life."
I just wanted to mention that distinction, because even though they are both using different words with different meanings, they are referring to the same act and the same ends to those means.
From a certain point of view.
I wonder why Palpitne references manipulation as influence. Is it because of his reverence to the Force ? The Sith's view on the Force is that while it is meant to be harnassed and controlled, it still deserves its respect and praise.
Loved binge-watching this series
The quality of your videos, your oration, your analyses has markedly improved. All from the desire to better understand and propagate a fictional character brought to life by writers, a voice actress, and pieces of philosophy. You yourself have grown from this inspiration. You help this echo travel as far as it can.
these kreias conundrums are the best category of content on this channel, really gets u wanting to discuss and perform autopsies on these games
She's back boys
Kreia taught me some of (if not) the most important lessons I've ever had the pleasure of learning from a video game, of all mediums. Kreia isn't just a video game character, she is a philosophy in and of herself. She denounces animalistic urges of violence. She advocates for everyone to be as human as they possibly can. Higher powers be damned, the self is more important than the collective. If the collective all felt the same way as this, they would all be stronger for it. But she also understands the need for "imbeciles and fools". Not all can rise to power, it is the weak that allows others to lead and demand obedience (whether their intentions be positive or negative). No one likes feeling like a tool, to be used, shaped, or manipulated, but this happens on a daily basis everywhere to everyone. That is reality. Everyone has their own agenda, their own goals and dreams. To achieve your dreams, sometimes you must manipulate others to share that same dream and make it their own (or at least make them feel as if it were their own). How you manipulate others and bend them to your way of thinking is what determines morality. Often times, as Kreia said, it is better to strike at the focal point with a scalpel's edge than to break it open with brute strength. The Sith view only raw power and respect as the main goal a Sith should have, and to manipulate, you must carry the biggest stick. The Jedi on the other hand have the patience to strike the correct chord with a scalpel's blade, yet they do not have the ambition or conviction to do it.
Kreia is so complex than the ones who made the sequels sure would have a heart attack learning from her
Wait till you hear that Rian Johnson is a huge legends fan and that all the things that "broke the lore" in tlj were pulled from legends ::D
Like the lightspeed ram was first done in the old republic xd (There's a reason RJ and Dave Filoni get along so well)
@@GladDori Where is that light speed ramp?
@@legendarymarston9174 The ram was in the shroud storyline from vanilla tor
When I think of manipulation I think of how our senses manipulate our surroundings and perception of what reality is. Not inherently negative, but something to be conscious of. However in regards manipulation is also something we consciously do often to subtract from something that hinders us or impedes us, but doesn't necessarily mean its negative.
What? How does your senses manipulate your surroundings? That makes no sense man. I feel like you are just trying to sound deep. If anything your senses manipulate you. If im daltonic my senses could make me think that the sky is green, tho its not.
@@Ridisword Yeah poor wording, but that is what I meant our senses manipulate our perception of our surroundings and can only be confirmed of its accuracy via itself. Sorry English isn't my first language.
@@Ridisword You are dependened on your senses to be aware of your surroundings. Your senses are flawed so how accurate is your preception of reality? Thats the point of the statement above.
@@leiferikson850 Yes i get that but still i wouldnt call that manipulation. Manipulation requires an intention behind
@@Ridisword Not exactly. People manipulate without even realizing it.
Fantastic work. I always found it interesting how individually the masters seem much less stuck in their ways and high minded, and even remorseful about their past mistakes, but once you get them together they just go right back to their same old judgement and inaction. As if the state of them being together, or acting as a collective inherently reinforces their flawed and outdated teachings. Which would make sense, I guess when you're on your own and faced with your mistakes, you're more likely to accept them and change, while with a bunch of others guilty of the same stuff, it's easier to get that approval from one another that you never did anything wrong and were right after all.
Thank you! All of them seem to do some reflection except for Vrook. And he's also a strong personality.
I find it absolutely amazing that you use Deus Ex music, Kotoe 2 and deus ex are my favorite games and favorite soundtracks, I never thought anyone else would think of the two together :))
Manipulation is often considered a negative thing because we associate it with people who use it, well, NEGATIVELY, i.e.: internet/gamer trolls (at least the hateful kind), politicians, corporate higher-ups. I like Kreia's way of framing the word: "awakening others to the truth of what you believe, of hearing it echoed around you in life." Her definition of the word is rather broad, so there are multiple avenues for which manipulation is achieved. But it's done best by "targeting the critical point within the fractured mass." It's a rather strategic and analytical skill, indeed. That's why certain military strategists might succeed in a siege; instead of sending in a large military force, which can potentially be a waste, they capitalize on using a weakness against them. It's essentially about subverting your subjects' playing field and not playing into their strengths.
Damn this was good. Can I just say love how this channel has grown, and seeing you Papito growing yourself, widen your perspectives and learning has been wonderful. I remember in early days of this channel how you wanted to be more comfortable with your voice by doing daily livestreams and talking with the people in chat. Going from a bit unsure to more confident. I was rewatching the Conundrums playlist and could hear the change with each video.
Again this was so good, but goes to show manipulation is a neutral term, growing can be a manipulation or alteration of moving from one state to another. I think Kreia expanded the term for everyone, stripping away the mostly negative connotation.
Anyways great vid as always.
“From one Exile... to another”
_"If God really didn't exist, then it would be necessary to invent him; and if God really did exist, then it would be necessary to get rid of him"_
-- Voline/M. Bakunin
Deus Ex Helios ending, this.
Yo, I've been waiting for this.
This channel is deeply reflective, and I find personally useful. Thank you for thinking things out and putting it here.
It's crazy the amount of times I've told someone how morality is subjective and based on personal perspective and they have outright tried to deny it is astounding. People really want to believe the world has a defining line on what is good and evil just so they can feel "morally superior". Yet their actions could easily cause problems for someone else, and from that person's perspective, the "morally superior" one is actually the "bad guy".
A big argument I see a lot is when it comes to the death penalty. I am fortunate to not be in a country where that is an issue. Yet I still see many commoners asking for it. Some see criminals as outright all bad, and blindly believe laws and authority without question. Brainwashed. Others will chime in and say they disagree with the death penalty but still want it for the "worst offenders" like murders and rapists. But then you have me, where I believe that no matter who and what they did, they can be rehabilitated.
Yes the "criminal" may have done something most people consider "bad", but the "criminal" may have an entirety different view on things. Rehabilitation can be seen as using manipulation to heal. From the outside attempting to conform someone's views may seem wrong, especially if that system they are conforming to is corrupt and bereft of freedom. However it may be necessary for continuation of a functioning society. As Kreia says "It is a far greater victory to make another see through your eyes then to close theirs forever".
Yet, somehow people still believe their views are superior. Now don't get me wrong I don't wish to hold mine to be superior to theirs. But it amuses me how many believe killing to be bad, yet perceive it as good when someone kills for them. Proving the point that morality is subjective.
Samli Objective morality means that a moral belief can either be objectively right or wrong. It's metaethics, its concerned with what morality is 'made of' or where morality 'comes from'. It's not a set of rules that someone believes is superior. If someone tells you they think morals are objective then they are telling you that if you disagree with them over an issue they could EQUALLY be as wrong as you. Hence they will debate/discuss with you why you disagree because they 'could be wrong' based on an objective criteria. So you're misrepresenting what objective morality is about.
Also what you raise can be a problem for subjective morality. If morals are subjective then I can proclaim my morals are superior to yours. As that is metaethically an opinion which has no criteria, you can't tell me that my morals are not superior to yours. It's my opinion.
Also you telling people that 'morality is subjective' is an assertion not an argument. Christains tell me the earth is 6000 years old. I reject their dogmatic assumptions that lack reasoning and evidence. People rejecting you for walking up to them and saying 'hey guys morals are 1000% subjective coz I say so' is far from crazy. Only a gullible lazy thinker will swallow what someone else tells them to believe.
@@MapleGlazedDonuts I've read it. I've looked at both analytical and continental works of philosophy. Nietzsches work pre-date the field of metaethics but his ideas obviously act as precursors to the establishment of the field.
So my objection to Samli misrepresenting people stands. He has no right claiming that people who disagree with him think they are superior. Character assignations are a fallacy..
Even healing someone is a form of manipulation...
It is. Some kind of change came about die to your direct intervention. It wouldn't have happened if not for you. Thus, manipulation.
Let me preface what I'm about to say with the fact that I love these videos, your content, and your in-depth character analysis of Kreia. I too, love Kreia's character and think there is much wisdom to be learned from her.
But I can't help but noticing something I feel it is important to share, even if I am wrong. Kreia is not unlike the force in the way that she perceives and acts throughout the game. Allow me to explain. Kreia says that the force manipulates the galaxy to bind it to its will, to achieve some goal that none are privy to. Kreia hates this, and she wants to free the galaxy from this all-powerful manipulation that causes countless wars, allows life to prosper on some planets but not others, and creates a seemingly semi utopian society. The force is neither all good nor all bad, but it cannot be argued that it does not manipulate to achieve its goals. However saying all this, is Kreia not doing the same thing? The very thing she hates about the force is the very way she acts herself. How she sees others, how she makes choices and takes action, is all to achieve her goal of bringing down to force. I know that it is often easy to see other's faults and be blind to your own, so perhaps this is excusable to an extent. But I don't think it is excusable entirely. If I've learned one thing from Kreia, it is that to believe in an ideal is to be willing to betray it. So while I may learn much from Kreia, she is also not a teacher that is safe from being wrong, or her teachings safe from being flawed. I don't think everything she practices or preaches is necessarily right, as saying so would put her on a pedal stool as some sort of god, which I would hate to see. With that being said, thank you for continuing to make these videos and create discussion. I truly value my time watching these videos and exploring these topics as a whole. Hope this comment was able to brighten your day to anyone who read this
It is not uncommon that a side of a coin hates the other.
Of course she is. There's a time and place for fighting fire with fire. And manipulation is Kreia's greatest talent. To not use it would mean to likely fail.
At last! A proper dedicated video on a topic I've realized a year or so ago when was first discovering your channel.
Profound and entertaining as always. Really beautiful ending too. Thanks.
Glad you enjoyed it. Odd that the ending is that beautiful. I was kind down in the dumps when I made this.
Ah yes, the game is so deeply layered! It's true how many things are just tools. They aren't inherently good or bad, what matters is how they are used.
Yes. At long last. I love this series and I view Kreia as one of Star War's most...complex characters.
You brought out some interesting details that I haven’t noticed during my multiple playthroughs. Awesome work as always, Papito!
Great video! I had been looking for the clip where Kreia talked about manipulation and I was glad to see this pop up in my feed. Keep up the great work!
Thanks, homie. Thanks what I'm here for.
Great video Qinn! Very interesting. I have to say that I also agree with Kreia on this topic
Was wondering whether or not this video series had ended .. glad to see it back.
No it didn't end. It was just looking for time.
Man, what you do is unique. Please don't stop. I'm not telling this in order to praise you. This world needs such people. It's my humble opinion of course ), but keep on going.
Thanks, man. You have no idea how much I needed something like this. I've had kind of a rough weak mentally. Every time I see that new member badge I'm flooded with all different kinds of emotions. Joy, guilt, happiness, fear, etc. I guess I just wish I could offer people the world, but I can't. Still, there's people out there who believe in me more than I think I could ever believe in myself. Thank you!
@@PapitoQinn In today's world ability to think is like a gift. Keep it.
@@not_much_of_a_talk Not really. Maybe people don't use the ability. But we all have it.
@@PapitoQinn Let's say the ability to use abilities. Thinking is not popular today, while stupidity is being encouraged. This 100% explains amount of your subscribers. Most people are lazy to think. And I appreciate that you do not chaise for subscribers and continue to do what you do... in a way you think is best.
Dear God. A Kreia video w. Fallout 4 background ambience. I'm at peace
very good analysis. subtle opinions thrown in with neutral objectivity. nice.
Thank you very much. I hope you enjoy the other ones in the series too.
I’ve been looking forward to this😍
Woo hoo, Kreia's conundrums. Best series on YT.
Cheers to Papito Quinn for yet another Kreia’s Conundrums video and as always never disappoints.
Great stuff man! Always awesome quality
Thanks, man. See if you can share this around. I can more easily, and free of stress, make these with more views.
“When you hear the word manipulation what comes to mind 🔊”
For me it’s these things ...
1. Taking advantage/ control of weak minded people for what ever you need them to do or what ever you need them for
2. A polite/ indirect way to get your point across & convincing the opposition to not only take your point into consideration but to lean more to what your saying instead of what there thinking.
3. It’s more or less the way the world 🌍 is run & what it’s based on over all when you really look into it but more time it’s used for badness instead of goodness.
Keep up the content I’m subbed & watching ✅
This was incredible insightful, Thank You.
I'm glad you enjoyed it. People need to know about this character. I'm just doing my part to help people understand her.
I love this game so much and I love your channel
Thank you very much for the support, man. The more I get, the more I can keep making these.
Incredible video Qinn! I loved it!
Thanks, Icehead. We've missed you.
@@PapitoQinn awwww! I will come back to the streams soon!
I am not even there and I miss you :P
@@logical-functionsmodel9364 awww. ☺ Thx guys.
Your personal philosophies make me think of those fun facts about how many people follow a Jedi sort of religion irl and how that doesn’t sound so silly hearing you
You deserve so many more views man :( Thanks for still uploading the god tier Kotor 2 content
Thanks. But I do disagree. I don't deserve more views. You could say that the amount of views I get is the amount I deserve. But the views I get are the views I've earned.
Good stuff man!
I stopped seeing manipulation as something negative ever since I played "Guardians of the Galaxy: Telltale series". I always associated manipulation to power, so when I saw the good it could do, I kept experimenting on it in other games.
Incredible vid, missed these. Congrats on (almost)10k!
Thanks. We'll see what 10K subs does.
I felt called out towards the end 😭
Why?
@@PapitoQinn It was towards the end of the video when you said: "When you subscribed to my channel, didn't you judge me and the content I created as being worthy of your time?"
I missed these videos philosophy and sci fi best combo
i love this long videos
Obsidian sent quite an echo through the force with this character for it to be felt so many years later
I wonder how far it'll travel when it's all said and done.
Is there a video anywhere that covers Kreia's conversation with the Exile when you convince Geriel on Nar Shadda to kill himself, to prevent him spreading the 'plague'? I remember something about Kreia being very impressed by this manipulation and you gain a lot of influence from it.
Not yet. I started writing a Kreia's Conundrums episode about that very thing, I got about 4 pages in before writer's block set in. 🙃
To react to our convictions is to make a choice. To make a choice exacts manipulation. To manipulate means to change life.
To deny ourselves this is apathy. And apathy is death.
Loved this vid, got yourself a new subscriber.
Thanks a lot, man. I think I saw your name pop up in the streamlabs during the stream. Share this around if you can. More people might enjoy it.
Nice choice of background music!
Thanks. I try to use the music to get a particular feel. There's a list of what I used in the description.
@@PapitoQinn Works wonders, that's why I compliment it.
Keep up the good work.
Fallout 4 music is so good...
this channel is perfect
Brilliant video!
Thanks! Share it around if you can. That'll help out a lot.
Manipulation, for me, is always pictured as a pragmatically clothed and clean-looking authoritative being sitting on a chair with a desk and watching screens upon screens of so many simultaneous events all across the miasma of reality and chance, so to see where they *might and should* lead come the end of it.
I think my favorite take away from this analysis is how the Jedi and Sith view winning battles. The Jedi would lose a fight to maintain their morale highground and not risk becoming/replacing what they struggle against. The Sith want victory at any cost as long as they can live or have their knowledge is passed down to a stronger apprentice that would kill them. Kreia would manipulate these two factions while taking from both. Kreia cares about the risk of becoming/replacing the Sith by winning at any cost, so she passes her knowledge onto the exile that she loves because they aren't either of what she hates. She also cares about the risk of the Jedi Order's arrogance and ignorant views and teachings being passed down, and eaves the exile with a hopeful prediction that their friends would train a new order and find inner peace. Kreia's mixed stance on victory preferences is interesting.
sounds like indra´s net tale love that story
This is a great video
Thank you very much. See if you can help me out by sharing it.
"Sometimes it is hard to step aside for meatbags and to see the whole picture from a distant perspective."
I can only add to this statement that when you think that you are know everything you automatically become so ignorant that you are shutting your selfe from all things that you could know even more, because if you say that i dont know, so there is a possibility for you to know, but if you know everything you can not know anything else...
And the itelligence is the New tool if domination, before it was raw power, itelligence is just how much things you gathered in your head...
And here I thought you were just ignoring me in the livestream chat the other day lol. Glad to see another come around friend!
Kreia's Conundrums these days just needs time. That's all. I got a couple just sitting there half written.
@@PapitoQinn well it's another fantastic one, oddly enough I was listening to the audio files for this one the other day and thinking similar things so it was nice to hear another person's view.
Good shit, man
Ayyyy lets go!
I would share this in the "Star Wars is Life" FB group, but i have been banned 4 times for sharing Gina Carano support video.
their new rule of "no bashing disney or lucasfilm" rule says more about their "Manipulation" than my attempts at showing them information from a different point of view.
I made a judgement….I subscribed
I've made a judgement as well. I appreciate you. Thank you.
You could get into a conversation about consequentialism vs deontology here. :P
Remember while you are correct that "manipulation" doesn't have to be negative, the alternative definition is equally true as well.
For example, one could say:
"When you think of a 'Drunk' you probably think of someone that drinks too much. Me and this other person think that it means a period of intoxication."
Both are correct.
Either way. Great video quality, your editing is getting better :)
oh, and you're welcome ;)
👍
@@PapitoQinn I am sorry if I come off as bitchy :P
@@logical-functionsmodel9364 You didn't. Don't worry about it.
Please do a full video on judgement
I think I may have shot my wad on this one with everything I really have to say on it.
Yep.
What are all the tracks used here?
Check the description.
@Papito Quin Many interesting topics in this video! To a great extent, the perspective on manipulation here expressed seems to be predicated on the assumption that morality is relative, and if that idea was wrong, then it seems that most of the view would not hold up the same.
My question: What convinces you that morality is relative?
Everyday human curiosity. That's what did it.
There's another episode in this series that might you understand my position on morality better. I don't remember which one though. I think it was "infantile delusions".
@@PapitoQinn I did watch that video! I want to say off the bat that I appreciate your thoughtfulness and style in assembling these videos, and I think you have a talent. At the same time, (since you seemed to invite discussion on it, and I'd love to chat about it) it seemed to me that you contradicted yourself, and made the main part of your case on the basis of a couple of assumptions that, while being popular in many modern circles, are nonetheless highly questionable.
What I mean by this is, you say that morality is simply thoughts, and perhaps merely a social construct. And yet you say that we "absolutely should" have some idea of morality, that hopefully most of us would agree lying, killing and war are bad things, and "the best that we can all do is what we think is right". But it seems to me self evident that you can't use words like "should" or "best" or even have a reason to hope that we would agree with basic reasonable standards, unless there is in fact some amount of an objective standard of what is good that exists, which you and the rest of us are (whether consciously or unconsciously) aware of.
You used the fact that different groups and cultures have different moral codes as if it were evidence that morality is relative, but did not discuss the equally observed fact that there are common patterns and threads in every single group and culture's moral perspective that consistently relate, and that people in general have many of the general aspects in common as to what he thinks would be a good world in a broad sense, such as health and strength and life.
I agree with you that a tree falling in a forest remains a fact whether people observe it or not, and the same is true with morality, because the idea that morality is just thoughts is an assumption which I think defies evidence. Even if people did not exist, I think there is evidence that the earth and life in general being in harmony and peace would be a good thing, and the very existence of such a thing as 'good' is a moral reality. Beauty is not only in the eye of the beholder. It is merely observed and named by the beholder, just as hydrogen is. The fact that perspective varies one's interpretation a certain amount does not change the core of that matter any more than the ancient Greeks ideas of the earth being held up by a giant affected the reality of the matter, or any more than a person's unawareness of radio waves means they do not exist. Morality is observed in a different way than these things, but that does not mean that it cannot be objectively observed, and I think a good dive into the matter will show that it can be.
The very fact that you observed that it is important for each of us to have some kind of moral beliefs for us to function well suggests that there is in fact a moral truth that all our beliefs are simply more or less close to, because if there were no such reality, there would be no need for an imitation. And to claim to believe in a set of 'moral beliefs', and yet say that you believe all such beliefs to be no more than thought and opinion is a self-contradiction, because it means that you believe you hold that very opinion in spite of evidence, and that in reality there is no 'right or wrong', thus undermining your own words.
In short, I think that the infantile delusion lies not in thinking that an objective morality exists, but rather in telling oneself that you can define morality yourself, while in the back of your mind holding to the contradicting idea that morality itself is an illusion formed by opinion.
(Sorry if that is too long, I too am a bit of a philosopher in the way that I think, haha. It would be fun to discuss this further.)
Your video called to me like an echo from across the galaxy. Are you manipulating the algorithm to draw me here?
Well, nice to see you again.
I wonder how Kreia would feel about memes, given how influential they are.
Do you do these kinds of video on Fallout New Vegas ? there might not be as much to say as in KOTOR 2 but studying it would be nice
I don't... yet. I have some ideas.
@@PapitoQinn I like where this is going, keep up the great work man 💪
I wonder how a conversion between Aizen and Kreia about Manipulation would go.
God I love Kreia
I’m so happy ❤️❤️❤️
I'm happy that you're happy.
Yey
[Skeleton Slurp]
Yey!
I have 2 points.
Manipulation scares the crap out of me.
By complimenting someone's work, I appear as a supporter. However, I could be moving the currents that pull this person into my agenda.
Not that we shouldn't trust each other, but we all try to gain something in this world.
Its the human condition. The fact we think, and have goals.
11:30 Qinn, you are wrong here. The Jedi Council was right to be patient. Look what happened. Nihilus was the literal apocalypse and only thanks to sheer luck that there was a Chosen One to stop him did they succeed.
The mandalorian wars were all a trick. Mandalore faces The Emperor and fights the Republic. The jedi sense there is more to the story than the Mandalorians. Revan goes into battle, The Emperor makes him fight the Republic.
Demons are spawned in Malachor. Because no one listened to the Jedi.
Kreia is wrong. Even when she is just a fictional character, there are indeed things you can learn from her phylosophy, but she is wrong. She actually contradicts herself. One of the things its criticized about the jedi is that they dennied their humanity and tried to act like emotionless robots, but Kreias the same, she is completly ignoring peoples humanity in her teachings acting again like emotionless robots but unlike the jedi that do it to protect the weak and dont fall to the dark side, she does it to achieve what she thinks is the greater good
you have manipulated me into subscribing to your channel. :)
In my opinion: Perhaps the trick is not to look at things such as morality like people exist in a vacuum - Sometimes looking at things where each person is simply one of many (yet still an individual among the group) is a route to interesting pondering. As humans are very group based beings, and none can survive alone. This is an infinitely complicated topic to dwell on, so I can't possibly do it justice in a comment such as this (nor if I probably spent a lifetime on it), but: If in one corner of the world for example commonly morals dictate something heinous is allowed - You can examine does "when in Rome" as a thought hold any merit: As that place does not exist in a vacuum. Morality is a constantly developing field in itself too: So you can ask even if something heinous was acceptable once: Was it ever right to begin with? Most likely in the future many things common play today will be seen as backwaters and morally dubious at best..and the mere phenomena of this makes me suspect perhaps a common direction has been chosen out of the merits it holds: Even if sadly not all yet embrace it.
Thus: Is it merely an opinion? Asking questions while a skill in itself is far easier than answering them. You can in-fact ask questions all day long: Anyone can do that. Answering them though? That's the tricky part and not something quite as easy. Things are usually at their core ludicrously complicated and the lure of simple answers is a powerful one: Even if it is folly at the end of the day.
As for manipulation - Sure you can argue it's just a tool that anyone can do anything with. Why I would see it as something not wise to use though is it's still meddling with things from a position of power from one way or another. And if one learns they were manipulated despite the outcome it can result in an awful lot of negative things: Feelings of betrayal, perhaps rebellion, or a crisis of identity. I suppose I rather let someone choose and view power as something I rather stay as far away from as possible: I know better than to think I am incorruptible by it, and it always does corrupt at the end of the day. Hence, I want none of it.
By the very act of writing this I am using my ability to write some musings of mine that came to mind: And actions do have consequences…but I do not want to be the one that makes anyone do anything. If this invokes thoughts in someone: That's their own choice to make. If they want to dismiss this as just TL:DR rambling: That's also their choice to make. And that's why I don't find manipulation to be up my alley. It robs and takes choice out of the equation, or disguises something as a choice when it isn't.
Looping back to where I began: Morality. If one's code of ethics and moral fiber is a result of manipulation: Then how strong would that moral structure actually be? I would suspect not very strong. The day they learn any sort of manipulation went on is the day the world shatters for them, and a crisis begins. Choice is everything.
You manipulated me with this comment. And every single person to ever live is a result of manipulation. Our parents, with their strong influence, indoctrinated every single on of us with their teachings, norms, and morals. It's not complex manipulation that they were aware of on the level of Kreia, but it is manipulation nonetheless. My argument is that there's no avoiding it. And since that is the case, let's not squander it.
Just saw the latest Kreia’s Conundrums video, and I really loved the quote, “The Perfect slave is someone who doesn’t even realize that they are a slave”(5:28). It reminded me of Little Finger from Game of Thrones. He wouldn’t just manipulate people with money, but by giving them knowledge that would destroy themselves. He would manipulate people to fight by giving them information that he knows will encourage them. He was one of the best players in the show, and his “knowledge is power” quote, embodies him.
This video explains perfectly on what he does and gives great examples on it in the show. GoT is a great series in Season 1 - 4. I highly recommend you watch them before watching.
Video - ruclips.net/video/KHsSAz6nRrk/видео.html
Fallout 4 background music?
Yes, I used "Rebuild, Renew" near the beginning.
"Do as I say, not as i do"
isn't that what Obi-Wan said in clone wars?
When?
@@PapitoQinn ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
@@PapitoQinn the citadel arc
Wait did you change your name? You did the super long philosophy of Kreia right ?
No that wasn't me. That's Dot. Or at least, that's what we call him whenever he pops into the streams, or Discord.
@@PapitoQinn it’s insane how similar you both sound, regardless I’m here for the Kreia content, time to binge this playlist !
@@gabealexander1818 Are you sure we sound alike? I've spoken to him several times, I don't hear it. Oh well. Thanks for the support, homie. I'm glad you enjoyed it enough to watch the older ones. I'm sure you'll be able to see how much I've improved.
Too sad that game doesn't give much room to apply it's wisdom. Actions in Kotors don't have much consequences. As far as I remember, quest endings are directly equal to made choices.
Another thing is - when I walk past someone in Kotors, and I see I can help - I just can't move along and not interfere. I just can't. Despite what Kreya teaches and I in general percieve it as wisdom.
Kreia is still the final antagonist of kotor2 for A Reason
Most games with great writing are like this, they make a point that is incredibly hard to be put gameplay-wise.
Can you write down all the musics used.
Already did. Check the description.
How the hell don't you have a job at LucasFilm.
ikr!
As a kid I thought kreia was a amazing character and always tried to max out my influence with her but failed everytime. ☹️