Wish we got her to either cameo as Kreia or play a similar character in a Star Wars show. Such a wasted opportunity for her shakespearean not to get a passing appearance in another official Star Wars project.
@@PapitoQinn I also agree with your statement about life being possible without the Force - The Yuuzhan Vong, for example, were a species entirely separated from the Force - Although their adaptation, as well as their adaptation into a society that found all forms of machine technology absolute heresy - Made it an evolution that wasn't entirely for the better. It could be said the entire species was a wound in the Force gone horribly wrong.
@@michaelandreipalon359 BioWare's games can vary at times between constant hits and the occasional miss, but the soundtrack always slaps, no matter the game.
@@thesecondromuluan8216 As i understand it the Vong were _still_ able to feel the Force with the only issue been their becoming deafened by it due to their constant warring ways making it impossible for the Force make itself known to them due to all the killing of life happening in their homeworld. Thus the Vong became "insensitive" to the Force until Luke and company managed to rekindle their connection to the Force at the end of the Vong Wars.
What Kreia ultimately wanted to do was level the playing field. She wanted everybody to be free of the Force's will, which is readily apparent in all Star Wars media, in which the narrative is always the same - letting go and fulfill the Force's will for balance at the cost of personal freedom. Ultimately, Kreia strove to destroy the meta-narrative of George Lucas' Prequels. And thus, she had to fail, lest no media set in Star Wars would make sense anymore. She tried to save a doomed setting from itself.
Revan really is Kreia's student. They will go to any length to achieve their goals in the name of a percieved greater good. Adopting the tactics and culture of the Mandalorians and Sith in order to defeat them and betraying Republic to make the galaxy stronger. Taking the role of the living force by manipulating and using people including creating monsters and betraying the Jedi and Sith for an ultimate goal to achieve "balance" and make all life stronger. This channel is a real treat, always enjoy coming back to it for new star wars uploads. Nice to know theres still people on here that really "get" kotor without having disgusting baggage like a certain someone with a well known kreia essay.
Should I activate Malachore ? Meetra kinda tries to pass her pain to her teammates. I might end the game with most of them cutting themselves off from the Force, though I'm uncertain about Malachore. Yet, ironically, I think my Revan embodied Kreia's vision better than my Meetra. Because my Revan was not particularly interested in self preservation or stick to the mission. He just wanted to keep his friends and allies alive, so his allignment was fully neutral (forcing me to defeat Mallack through grenades, mostly). The two times I would have showed more adherence to one of the sides would have been when I stood by Chuundar's side, and helped One. But that's only because I wanted to bring change to the system, now that the Sith were destroyed and the Jedi crippled (I wanted a mini nation of sorts). Even so, the truth is, I was willing to challenge the Force's perceived will, as I was following a path similar to the old Rakata (except I destroyed the Star Forge). I used the Force, but still followed the path to oppose the Force. My Meetra, on the other hand, is more interested in survival, and try to prepare people to defend themselves in the meantime. Yes, she's against reviving the Jedi, but she's using the Force for self-benefit mostly, without any particular opinion about it. She's not particularly interested in changing any system in any particular way, other than maybe keep the Jedi and Sith from reviving. I may need to review some of my approach to things in "KOTOR 2". What's your take ?
The Vong did regain it at the end of the Vong Wars and at the end of the day they were just Meetra Suriks who needed a little "nudge" in order to go back to being like any other sentient race in Star Wars Legends.
This! I've tried explaining this to others but.. no to avail. Apologies in advance, I'm dyslexic and I'm no good at writing long text walls.. but here I go. The way that my mind perceives Kreia's attempt at deafening the force is similar to that of a psychotic break. A reliance on the strength of those who gather around you and then the sudden loss of that power and what it takes to survive, what it means to survive, and if death was truly an absolute. Force wielders rely on it as they learn and grow to become more and more attached to the force, just the same and those who are force sensitive yet are unknowing of their own connection to the force consider the events around them to be just mere chance, luck and skill.. all the while building connections with others as a sort of passive bonding in the force (Think of Han Solo and how others find themselves gathering around him). The exile was meant to be the psychological portrayal of connection, leadership and power.. similar to Revan but she was more focused on the people around her than the war itself.. and it is as such that makes me believe that Kreia understood that the moment that Darth Nihilus died, She wanted to see if the ability to thrive without the force could come in contact with the undeniable power of a force entity (Or, technically, the force itself) that could devour someone's connection to life itself and survive. Her idea was proven correct.. and she wanted to believe that death would not have been an absolute but a choice, a choice by those who had the power to make it and recognize it.. and that was the true lesson of strength. To believe in an ideal, is to be willing to betray it, just as The only power you need is yourself, as in the end.. there is only you. Just my perspective, and it is likely a poor one at that.. riddle with errors and inconsistencies.
Thank you! Although... I do have some things I want to say about that show. I think I'm gonna make a video discussing it. NOT REVIEWING IT. Just discussing it. Devoid of opinions...
force is a living being, it can die and regenerate, but the average human can probably survive without it due to their humanity, which is a force in itself which will always be in conflict with the star wars force, which is why the eternal effort of the force to lead things to balance.
* It is wrong to say that no one has died when cut off from the Force, arguably. Kavar, Vrook & Zez all die after Kreia severs their connections to the Force (and she makes it clear in the scene that she is not outright killing them with the power - instead she is making them like the Exile and giving them the choice / challenge to live as the Exile did). Past them there are Nihlius, Sion & Ajunta (& arguably Kreia herself), though those are all special circumstances and more artificial living after their natural deaths anyway. It is also pointed out that many Jedi on Malachor died because of the severance / silencing of the Force in the area. As Atris says (one of the few times I'd say she's accurate), it requires a strong will to survive such a sudden severance. BUT, as Kreia tells Atton on Citadel Station, this will likely be a risk only Force users & some Force sensitives will suffer (the sudden death), rather than some slow death (but survive that sudden death, and those that remain - aware or not - will have the opportunity to then thrive without the Force). Regardless of the above & the video however, I still hold that Kreia never actually planned to try and cause an echo to silence the Force once and for all. Not as her Plan A at least. More like her new Plan B, after her original Plan A went catastrophically wrong. Kriea makes this pretty clear when you face her at on Malachor. (Paraphrasing): "Now, the apprentice must kill the master. If you do not, I will kill you. And if I do not, then we are all doomed." The Exile putting a stop to her "plan" is Kreia's actual goal, so you can teach people to safely close themselves off from the Force if they so choose, and be better geared to resist its influence regardless. And killing her also severs her bond to the Exile, (somehow) giving the Exile the ability to cut their bond to Malachor and allowing that wound to close so that it stops killing all existence (which the Exile was inadvertently accelerating until then). Should you fail, then Kreia intends to kill you, also ending the threat of Malachor (since without the Exile the wound at Malachor can no longer be kept open with no fellow wound to bounce off) and sending out the "Deafening" of unknown lethality to end the Force's influence over the galaxy (and likely making it impossible for the True Sith to truly invade since their Force powers wouldn't work either). Should both fail to kill each other (neither able to bring themselves to make the final blow), then even if either die, the wounds will remain and essentially act as a bleed on the universe, draining its life as the Force inadvertently kills everything connected to it by continuing to pull the energy of everything into Malachor (think "Uzamaki" by Junji Ito, but without the weird/supernatural/obvious elements. Just a quiet, background spiral into death, as Nihlius & Sion were bringing about). And then who knows how far Malachor's influence would spread when this universe is killed? (As for the plan that went catastrophically wrong, that would be Darth Nihlius. Kreia's first attempt at an Anti-Force agent, only for it to go too far because she acted more with vengeance than wisdom & foresight until she was stripped of her power herself).
They ultimately had a choice. Give up the force & Live WITHOUT the force. Or hold on to that power & die. A similar choice the exile made at malachor V
I also have a theory that Kreia’s plan to deafen everyone to the Force had another reason… It could’ve been a backup plan to stop Nihilus. He was simply too powerful, and while she really hoped, she wasn’t exactly sure the Exile would actually be able to beat him. So, had things came to that point, deafening everyone to the Force would have been a great sacrifice, and it would kill many people, yes, but it would also starve her old apprentice to death and avert the terrible fate he would have inflicted upon the Galaxy, had he been allowed to carry on.
With each new video i'm impressed by how deeply you can reflect on Kreia as a character, her goals, her ideals, and her purpose. Lately, in the times of the new canon, sometimes it's difficult to see the force in the same way as before, but when I turn to channels like yours, I feel an old spark of hope rekindling in me, and I imagine that this was what Kreia wanted with Meetra, to be that light of comfort and hope, of fresh start and confidence, that no matter how drastic a change is, it is not the end of the world... yet
To this day i wonder what would George Lucas say to Avellone's writing of the character of Kreia. It just feels so weird having all this introspection of his mythology only for the creator himself to remain completley deafened to it.
16:24 "Powerful and smart women have been deemed insane since the beginning of time" - Falka I didn't get the chance to play Kotor 2, but I'm loving all videos related to them. Thanks for this!
While watching Dot's videos, I always had a nagging feeling he wasn't getting the full picture. Watching your clips after, I came to a similar conclusion as this video, no offense to Dot, but I think this is the real motive of Kreia. I love your view that Kreia is the real Sithari, that gives me an idea-- perhaps there are multiple "Sithari," which are paragons of different conclusions to the Sith philosophy. "The Sith believe in freedom, even if freedom requires submitting to stronger power," Submitting to the force to gain its power. Darth Bane was the Sithari of submitting to your own mortality and operating as a tool of the Dark Side to strengthen *its* influence, not your own. Of effectively taking the galaxy's gift of being strong, enjoying it, and passing it on because it wasn't yours to begin with. The path of rejecting mortality was a path tread by many Sith: Darth Nihilus-- who's will wasn't strong enough to control the hunger which results from such feeding (like a rabid vampire); Darth Vitiate-- who wanted to consume the star wars galaxy, to gain the strength to travel the universe and rule over other galaxies as their god, only to consume them and move on (kinda like Sephiroth who wanted to become the god of FFVII's planet, and use it as a vessel to travel the universe doing the same to other planets like his parasite mother Jenova); and Darth Sidious-- who wanted to continue his thought-pattern through the force and clone bodies to be the eternal god of the star wars galaxy. There probably isn't a Sithari of this path, but if there was it was Vitiate-- it seems this path always ends in failure of some sort. And Kreia, as you said-- paragon of the most "pure" form of Sith philosophy, to reject submitting to the force, which isn't your own power. All paths end with the destruction of the Sith-- Bane's through the battle of Ruusan and the rule of two, Vitiate's with the death of the galaxy, and Kreia with the removal of the Sith's borrowed power.
The Sith don't "submit" their wills to the force to gain power, actually that's the reason why the chosen one exist, because the Sith impose their will above the will of the force, thus creating imbalance, their are literally a cancer.
They don't submit themselves to its *will* but they do submit themselves to receiving the power from another will-- because the force has a will it's an individual, regardless of what it wants, taking that power is relying on someone other than yourself. The Sith submit to higher powers, at least temporarily-- to their masters, for example. And by accepting the universe's "gift" of force sensitivity, they are allowing something more powerful than them (the force) to give them power. Darth Bane's Rule of Two explicitly states that seeking immortality is forbidden, because if you fail the sith die with you. So the Rule of Two demands you also submit to mortality. The Rule of Two is also more concerned with the continuing influence of the dark side than the individual users of the dark side- by concentrating it "like a poison" in just two people, and passing its influence down. Basically "accept that you're lucky to be a sith, enjoy the ride, and get off to let the next person on- the ride is more important than you." Vitiate and Palpatine disagree with this ofc, and it can be argued such a commitment to the dark side instead of selfishness contradicts the nature of the dark side itself, but regardless it does seem Bane is right in that they always fail. And Kreia is the most consistent because she doesn't accept the validity of being force sensitive itself. @@elfather2045
Based on the way Kreia is explaining it, if Meetra was killed in Malachor V, the planet would send the screams from those who died there through the force to everyone, like a transmitter. The body would need time to adapt, to be deafened by it. But not all have such strength and/or patience. Those who do not have either one of them would die
This may be different, but if you’ve ever seen Naruto, Itachi focused more on his skills than his jutsu, to such an extent, even if he had went blind, he’d still be the most dangerous person to confront. His strength came not from his ability, but from his willingness to adapt & do something out of the ordinary. This is a small deviation but it does touch in a sense because, even in Avatar: Last Airbender, the benders and the ninja all relied on their abilities more than their actual skills, & many fell to Tai Lee, a non bender who had chi-blocking techniques & Lee, who had no ability with jutsu outside of Taijutsu, nearly beat one of the most dangerous characters in the show, merely by tapping into his true potential but still no gen or special jutsu. Sorry for the lengthy post
Nice comparison. And gives me greater respect for Itachi. Allow me to do one too: -Ironically, I think my Revan embodied Kreia's vision better than my Meetra. Because my Revan was not particularly interested in self preservation or stick to the mission. He just wanted to keep his friends and allies alive, so his allignment was fully neutral (forcing me to defeat Mallack through grenades, mostly). The two times I would have showed more adherence to one of the sides would have been when I stood by Chuundar's side, and helped One. But that's only because I wanted to bring change to the system, now that the Sith were destroyed and the Jedi crippled (I wanted a mini nation of sorts). Even so, the truth is, I was willing to challenge the Force's perceived will, as I was following a path similar to the old Rakata (except I destroyed the Star Forge). I used the Force to oppose the Force. My Meetra, on the other hand, is more interested in survival, and try to prepare people to defend themselves in the meantime. Yes, she's against reviving the Jedi, but she's using the Force for self-benefit mostly, without any particular opinion about it. She's not particularly interested in changing any system in any particular way, other than maybe keep the Jedi and Sith from reviving.
One little addition to this: Kyle Katarn also cut himself from the force after falling to the dark side. Not many people refer to Jedi Knight games, but it happened. Anyway, great video
I love this videos dude, You do such good work. I never believed Kreia wanted to kill the force. I always believed that Kreia just wanted the force to not be able to act on people. and for Jedi and Sith not be able to use it
My Meetra kinda tries to pass her pain to her teammates. I might end the game with most of them cutting themselves off from the Force, though I'm uncertain about Malachore. Edit: Ironically, I think my Revan embodied Kreia's vision better than my Meetra. Because my Revan was not particularly interested in self preservation or stick to the mission. He just wanted to keep his friends and allies alive, so his allignment was fully neutral (forcing me to defeat Mallack through grenades, mostly). The three times I would have showed more adherence to one of the sides would have been when I stood by Chuundar's side, accused Jolee's friend and helped One. But that's only because I wanted to bring change to the system, now that the Sith were destroyed and the Jedi crippled (I wanted a mini nation of sorts). Even so, the truth is, I was willing to challenge the Force's perceived will, as I was following a path similar to the old Rakata (except I destroyed the Star Forge). I used the Force, but still followed the path to oppose the Force. My Meetra, on the other hand, is more interested in survival, and try to prepare people to defend themselves in the meantime. Yes, she's against reviving the Jedi, but she's using the Force for self-benefit mostly, without any particular opinion about it. She's not particularly interested in changing any system in any particular way, other than maybe keep the Jedi and Sith from reviving. I may need to review some of my approach to things in "KOTOR 2". I thank you for this video. It helped me to look at "KOTOR 2" with a new perspective. I guess I'm still trapped by those psychotic urges Kreia warned me against.
Well apparently saying some good things are not allowed on yt since it deleted my comment instantly so I know it's not you papi. So I will try again. I'm glad you're ok and still uploading. Hopefully this goes through.
Personally, I view it with the context of Kreia inflicting Deafness to the remaining jedi masters. In-game has these powerful masters basically as husks when unable to listen to the force. Now, with all/most life connected to the force, if even a fraction of that sort of damage is inflicted on all life. Especially for those untrained in such things, I could see it killing alot of the galactic population
There is actually an aspect of the Force that is beyond all of the "crude matter". This is the Living Force. Trying to kill the Living Force is like trying to square a circle, or make water dry, or clap with one hand.
Intersting point of view. However, when you think about it... this makes Kreia even more of a hypocrite. As shown, the Force wants balance (as in the light side). Due to this, many people get caught up in the crossfires of battles caused by the war between sides. People die due to the conflict between the light and dark sides, the need for balance (technically, dark siders are the ones starting conflicts, others logically respond to this, but I'll get to that later). The ends (balance, which is definitely better than the dark side ruling) justify the means (the possible deaths of others thanks to war). Kreia wants the Force's influence gone. She plans to, gradually or quickly, deafen everyone to the Force. Someone will die because of this, no matter what. The ends (freedom from the Force) justify the means (the deaths of others who need the Force). Are the two any different, besides that the dark side is always there? Wars will always happen, for one reason or another, with or without the Force. Also, you noted that it might not be true that all problems are the result of sentient beings, but can you prove that? Is there any proof that the light side's wrongdoings aren't just simply the natural result of fighting the dark? What happens if the light side, the Force, ceases to fight the dark? We know what happens when the dark side takes over; life will suffer. We also know what the dark side does; it corrodes minds, it turns people to passion and evil. Is there any reason not to fight against that? People would die anyways, but if the light side wins, they at least die in peace. You also stated that the Exile would determine the lives of others through their actions, but is that better? Now, instead of a presumably benevolent, powerful force guiding the lives of others, it's a singular mortal doing so. That wouldn't be horrible if not for the fact that Kreia encourages you to be selfish, to manipulate others for your own gain. It isn't often that Kreia praises a good, selfless act, even though that's the good outcome that you describe. Generally, she cheers on dark-sided choices, like respecting you for breaking the will of the refugees, or tricking Jorran into getting killed. Where is the hope in that? Under her guidance, you would destroy life, not save it. You would encourage hopelessness and despair. I like Kreia. I think this is an interesting view of her ideology. However, it just goes to show that Kreia's ideology misunderstands the Force, and that its greatest opponent is herself.
I could get into a long discussion with you. But unfortunately I just can't afford to. Although it is interesting that your starting point is that balance is the light side. But then you ask me how I can prove certain things. Remember that I'm trying to view things from Kreia's perspective. The only reason, from her point of view, anyone would think that the light side is balance is because that's what the Jedi preach. And we just believe them as if they're in any real position to know more than anyone else.
@@PapitoQinn To be fair, it is Lucas's view. Nothing really contradicts this. The only one saying that the light side can't be the balance is Kreia. As you said, the Force does have a passive grip on life. The natural, "balanced" way would be to accept this way, which usually gives a positive outcome to people. The dark side is unbalanced since it corrupts the living Force. KOTOR 2 itself acknowledges this idea, what with the light side being stated to be acceptance of the Force, the dark side being control over it, and dark side corruption. Imbalance, as well as countless deaths from wars, root from the *dark side*, not the Force itself. I do understand that this is Kreia's perspective, but it's strange that she has such views on the light and dark sides, considering she herself was a former Jedi, and should understand the Force. She should understand the concept of balance. Edit: I think the reason people think that balance isn't found in the light side is because people see the failings of the Jedi and attribute that to the light side (ala Kreia). The Jedi are not the light side. They are simply an organization, a religion that tries to follow the light. Multiple other Force religions also try and sometimes fail to follow the light properly.
Yet the dark side is part of the force otherwise you wouldn’t have Sith Lords so…. And yes I did read this all the way through and you kinda missed her point is that it’s the same thing happening over and over and over again without a end to it so in her mind she basically came to a conclusion we ether kill it and hope that we can actually learn and grow without it or the second deafening it enough that it would allow for more individual choice in the matter rather than just blindly believing something simply because the force which may not even be benevolent causes as they have many deaths but at the end of the day it proves her point that if you strip someone of the force what will that person do for example take away the Jedi and siths powers and suddenly you have regular people who don’t know how to function without it And better yet no Sith Lords running around as you said they cause most of the big stuff so therefore the logical thing To do to reach balance is to therefore strip everyone of the force or greatly weaken it.
@@InfernoCleric384the thing is that when I look at Kerias philosophy she’d be correct in questioning the force and its nature as is it truly Good as your looking at it from and outside perspective you have to view it from the perspective of inside the universe as you have this energy thing able to manipulate and control life and able to get you to do what it wants you would be given this illusion of choice when you don’t really have any choice at all except to fulfill whatever the idea is of balance that it has hence you would say I don’t want to be controlled but to do so would mean going against the force itself starting to get the idea here? You’re essentially saying that there needs to be a change as who gives it authority to do such a thing? If we are going by an inside universe perspective if a billion people were to die and it were to be said to bring balance would you let that happen because it’s the will of the force?
@@InfernoCleric384reasonable takes. Fair points. I think to a considerable degree that Kreia is motivated by spite. She admits as much. Does she have deeper feelings and intend for higher ideals? Sure. But which came first? The higher ideals, or the the spite? I'd posit that if she'd never been kicked out by the Jedi, blamed for Revan and his followers going off to fight the Mandalorian wars, she'd not have fallen to the dark side. Then, additionally, if Nihilus and Scion hadn't turned and betrayed her, she'd have had no axe to grind with the dark side/sith. My suggestion is that she developed her master plan as a result of being fed up with both sides and practitioners of the Force, then applied their actions outward and determined that logically, if the force hadn't been there in the first place, as a means of power and influence, which seems to manipulate its users in subtle ways, she wouldn't have suffered because of it, and the galaxy would by extension wouldn't have suffered because of it (and by extension it's users/advocates). She had some ideas that the jedi didn't like, so they kicked her out as being responsible for Revan. So she tries the darkside/with, maybe the other team isn't so bad afterall. And they too hate the jedi. But hate wasn't exactly a solid bond, and their ideology caused them to turn on her, predictably. So the with weren't any better, just a different flavor. Opposite side of the same coin. She wants to prove both of them wrong, and that she and her teachings were right. Then give both them the middle finger through unavoidable proof of the exile. That the force doesn't have to be the end all be all, the thing to abdicate responsibility to and to manipulate in a desire for power. The jedi and sith both are almost hopelessly hooked, addicted and dependent on the force to live and to do anything. She's accepted the consequences of any death toll as worth it, both on a personal spiteful level, and on a deeper philosophical basis, as the eggs neccessary to break in order to make the force omlett. Freedom and self actualization, as maximum virtues, no matter the cost. It wouldn't end all suffering or troubles, but at least from then onwards they would be as a natural result, and not due to an outside external source subtly influencing and manipulating events in a neverending schizophrenic need to balance itsel. At least if we take "balance" in the sense of equalizing, then the force (and by extension the Star Wars universe) is an mmo game like neverending series of dev patches, updates, buffs and nerfs, that cause and ensure future updates, patches, buffs and nerfs. Kreia sort of exists as an in universe meta critique and commentary on Star Wars as a whole. How the meta story never really changes, no lessons are learned, any progress is ultimately futile and there's always the next great sweeping galactic threat and conflict because we the audience want it, to keep us engaged and entertained. Kreia, if she could see past the 4th wall would be horrified. We're the real culprits. The audience. We are the will of the force.
I think attributing all the galactic wars to the force is giving a little too much to Kreia's argument. Many of the wars we see portrayed in star wars are started or caused by the Sith or darksiders, beings who directly go *against* the will of the Force. The way I look at it is the Force is the organism and all the beings within the galaxy/universe are component cells within that organism. The "will of the Force" is simply the organism's attempt at perpetuating itself and therefore the collective. Any one of the cells in our bodies would die if it meant protecting the greater health of the collective. That is unless that cell is cancerous, in which case it refuses to die, refuses the will of the force, and in the long term causes the death of every cell in the organism, including itself. If everyone in the galaxy was deafened to the force that would be like if every cell in your body suddenly decided to become a single celled organism, sure the strong would survive and they'd all be "free" but is that "good" "Balance in the force" just means that life in the universe continues to be perpetuated at a sustainable level, that's why predation or hunting for food isn't of the dark side but genocide is.
When Kreia drains the Jedi masters of the force in the enclave the being that is deeply rooted in the force dies with it, that's why the Jedi masters died instantly. As it is not public knowledge, if a Jedi or Sith is taken from the force but is able to sever connection with it as the exile did, he/she would survive if Kreia managed to destroy the force. I remember that when inspecting the corpses of the Jedi for the loot it gives you a description that says something like "the bodies are empty, absence of the force". What happened to the masters is a small scale of what would happen. In non-intelligent beings or planets that are touched by force, which is all of them, I think that not even Kreia knows what would happen. Even if you weren't touched by the force, if the planet dies... And if we assume that all the planets are touched by the force as if they were a living being, something like each planet has Gaia. Bye galaxy
I wonder is She took into account the ( i was going to say human condition but starwars has more than Humans so) Living Condition of Sentence. Creatures are stubborn and i believe that even without the force the wars and needless death would not be halted whatsoever. While yes the force influences, has it influenced life in The Galaxy so much that even deaf to it will they keep fighting? Has it Caused a metronome of unending conflicts. Being deaf to the force doesn't mean that the deaths dont feed it still. I wonder if she considered this.
"War is a hunger. And there are those who's hunger is never satisfied." - Kreia I think she did. It's an unfortunate reality, but war is inevitable. At least without the Force there's a chance for development. In our reality we still have war, but at least we've been able to reduce it. We were able to learn SOMETHING out of it all.
There are many species that rely on the force. Like the mariluka who uses the force to see. There has to be countless species who rely on the force in one way or another.
Just discovered your channel, your content seems really good! If I was to suggest an idea for a video, I'd be very interested in seeing a theory on who Mira's true father is. It's one of the only things in the games that I can't place at all, ever since Kreia had that line about her in the ending dialog I've been wondering who it could be, especially since it seems very weirdly specific. I've even read some theories that the Exile themselves could be her father, since she has a line saying the player is old enough to be her father, and one of the male face options is a redhead.
Thank you. I'm glad you're enjoying the content. As for Mira's father. I might explore that if I get some sort of inspiration of epiphany on the subject. As of now, I'm not really sure who it could be either. The game doesn't give away much evidence for that.
if i had to slightly modify the disney sequels, i feel like making Alderaan a wound in the force would be smart, along with having Rey link with people and suddenly having their skills. It doesn't need to be a KOTOR2 rip off, but having Luke cutting himself off from the force and having a grand epitome and becoming half way to Kreia in the trilogy would have been cinema.
Who would "sense" that Wound in the Force after Tarkin and all those Empire officers aboard the Death Star died? The Wound would definetly disappear eventually anyway either way like it did Malachor after a time so i doubt it would have been an interesting premise for the sequel trilogy.
@javiervasquez625 according to the wiki, (how ever reliable that is), Alderaan had a population of 2 billion, and then there's all that plant and animal life. Even in the disney sequels, that Starkiller base blew up the Hosnian system. idk if there's a reliable canon source, but some 'collider' article says 155 billion people died there.
@@Balo168 I'm talking about the _actual_ Wound in the Force (the one who caused it) which in this case would Wilhuff Tarkin and all those Imperial officers who backed his use of the Death Star to kill millions of people and all the flora and fauna populating Alderaan's surface. With Tarkin dead there's no one responsible to sustain all those deaths at Alderaan making it impossible for a Wound to be formed.
Disney was too preoccupied at first with just copying the surface level details. "Memba' Star Wars?" Look! Lightsaber! Robot! Bad guy in a black suit! Stormtroopers! Spaceships! Millennium Falcon! Chewbacca! Big scary space station with colossal death laser that blows up planets! Mystery boxes! What's in the boxes? Then they let the next movie go in the complete opposite direction of everything to "be different" for the sake of being different, and partly out of spite for the audience and "your star wars theory", and maybe just maybe because they didn't bother to plan ANYTHING out on advance, so the second movie was left to try to answer all the mystery box questions from the first one. And most of the answers felt purposely unsatisfactory. What's in the box? "It doesn't matter." Then the third movie was a reaction to the reaction from the first movie "Wait! Wait! Wait! Um actually..." and had to just shove square pegs into round holes wherever it needed and cobble something together that ultimately made little sense, but was an inevitability because they refused to plan ahead, and thought they could just wing it as they went along, after throwing away Lucas's sequel trilogy treatment he gave them. "Somehow Palpatine returned..." because we painted ourselves into a corner with the last movie. Kreia's ideas and strategies are way too deep for the average audience demographic. She's too meta critical of the Star Wars universe and by extension the audience itself. Who mostly just want to enjoy the scifi fantasy escapism morality play, and not engage with it too deeply. She's almost a Debbie downer of sorts, pointing out the deeper in universe consequences of the things that most fans enjoy about the series. The force has a will, because we the audience want to see more of the things we enjoyed about the original movies. That's why the force never balances itself. The closest it ever came in universe was revenge of the sith, or return of the jedi, depending on how you interpret "balance". If it did, we'd nolonger have the good magic sword fighting space wizard monk priest samurais fighting the evil magic sword fighting space wizard monk priest ronin. Kreia is Nietzsche and heavy philosophy inserted into a Flash Gordon serial. She sticks out like a sore thumb, and isn't immediately easily digestible for a market audience demographic. She begins and ends in KotoR 2 because nobody's likely to be able to follow up and build off her, except for probably the one who wrote her in the first place, without getting it completely wrong or inadvertently flanderizing her character or watering down her ideas. Least of all the Mouse of Sauron who is buying up things because its unable to create anything of its own anymore. If it even arguably ever did in the first place.
I believe that, in a way, Kreia didn't actually want to win. As in she doesn't actually want to deafen the galaxy to the force even if that's what she plans to do(and will do if she wins). She seems to want the exile to defeat her. If you go back to the things you discussed in the "truly tested" video, Kreia positioned herself as the exiles test, just as she positioned Atris and Nihilus to be tests for her. She does for the exile what Revan did for the republic in challenging it. But of course the real battle is not the physical battle, but the battle of idea's. And in a way, I don't think she even wants herself to be proven right, she wants the exile to be proven right. The exile is perhaps free of the will of the force in a way that Kreia is not. There's a bit of dialog that I feel backs this up where Kreia is talking about Atris, but it could easily be seen as her talking about herself as well, especially given that they are both Darth Traya. "She needed to be something you could confront and defeat one last time. It was part of your training, part of what you needed to make you complete. And there must always be a Darth Traya. The galaxy needs it's betrayers especially in the time to come. She loved you, you know, as one loves a champion. You were all that she could not be."
Well, it's pretty obvious we give her hope by being more positive, even if she won't admit it. Unfortunately for her...I agree with pretty much everything she states. Well, almost everything. Not all. So I can not give her that hope. Not yet at least. Not until I pass judgement on Atris.
I SO wished this era would be crossovered with "Kingdom Hearts". So much of the latter's narrative and characters could gain so much from a crossover, especially when the recent arc entails to further accept the cycle of light and darkness is only one way to view the world.
@@michaelandreipalon359the things that bother me after 2 are the lack of karma on certain characters (cough DiZ and Riku cough), and how suddenly it's possible to rebuild a person by somehow destroying their body, soul manifestations and heart projections. Oh ! And the monopolization of Sora (he's my favorite character, but come on, there's a whole cast to explore), not to mention how they acknowledge darkness as necessary by words, but by actions, they're still too influenced by light. And the excessive forgiveness. What is it that bothers you after 2 ?
@@JabamiLain Simply enough, the fact that II was supposed to be the true endgame. They really should have kept it that way, and same with other works like First Blood, Die Hard, Dino Crisis, Dragon Age: Origins, and so on. Complicatingly enough, some of the criticisms you just say, plus the fact that KH III isn't even an endgame at all.
@@michaelandreipalon359OMG ! "KH 3" was an abomination ! I almost quit the saga because of it ! Still, in defense of those who chose to continue the series, look at what Naminé did to Roxas. Her personal plan for him once merging him back with Sora was the classical "murder/suicide" case of a disturbed individual with no self love. To end the story with the glorification of such behavior...I could never. Though there would be more punishment around in my version of the story, and less gaslighting. My hope now is that at least Sora breaks after realizing the bad joke he's been the subject of after "KH 1".
I think that most of the confusion comes from people referring to it as "killing off The Force" or just "killing The Force" when they should be saying "deafening people to The Force's will." I never played KOTOR 2 but I was firmly in the camp that Kreia's plans would kill everything in the universe because I was told over and over that she wants to "kill The Force." There is no example of anyone to my knowledge that actually is completely cut off from the force. Everyone, even those who have been severed from the force, are just unable to wield it. In some cases, like the Vong, even resistant to it. But I was always under the impression that they had enough interaction with the force to keep alive because metabolic processes do not function without it. You would experience cellular death without it.
The Exile for KotOR 2 is actually the only example in Star Wars (canon or otherwise) who was ever truly severed from the Force, not just deafened. It is why the Exile is considered a Force Wound and had no ability to use Force abilities until Kreia forced an artificial bond on her when the events on the Harbinger / Peragus occurred. Before saying "but you can use the Force in-game", remember that everyone, including the Exile, comments on how even with her powers "back", they cannot detect the Force off her (and the Exile even states multiple times that the Force feels different now, like it is faint & distant). It is because she can no longer generate the Force herself anymore; as far as the Force in Star Wars is concerned, the Exile is no longer a "living" being. What Kreia's artificial bond did was give the Exile a temporary boost, and the Exile's only special innate ability (Force bonding) kicked in to immediately start bonding to every vaguely Force-connected thing around her to "top off" her ever-higher capacity for the Force, and then passing the excess back to the things she is connected with. (Or in other words, imagine the Exile as an empty fusion reactor that's off the grid. Kreia pumped some new material into that reactor to power it up, and it instantly began pulling in more material from everywhere to repower itself and anything else that hooked up to it in the meantime). > But I was always under the impression that they had enough interaction with the force to keep alive because metabolic processes do not function without it. You would experience cellular death without it. Not too far off. The Exile mentioned that until Kreia began making her feel the Force again, she'd felt weighed down & miserable. She didn't need the Force to survive, but surviving without it definitely sucked and left her exhausted.
@@DBArtsCreators No but like biology isn't the same in Star Wars. Maybe if you go only off of KOTOR you might reach that result, but if you look at the rest of the old EU missing the force would be like missing RNA, mitochondria, and ribosomes. You literally would just die without it.
@@DarthCuddlefluff Wrong. You are not guaranteed to die without the Force in Star Wars. It is not the same as missing RNA, mitochondria, or ribosomes. It's like missing a kidney or a limb. That's all.
Oh yeah, the Hollywood theme. I had the OST specifically to use in my Skyrim Serana analysis video. But I ended up not using much from it. I streamed VTMB too.
If Kreia is the logical evolution of the sith what would be the logical evolution of the Jedi ?. Complete obedience to the force ? The creation of a complete theocratic order that imposes its will on the galaxy in order to secure permanent balance for the force ? Or something else entirely?
I think your answer lies in either Luke or Asoka. The Darkside is the Force's need to revolutionize things, even if it means unbalance itself. The Lightside is the Force wanting to walk on eggshells. So adherence to it, is to understand its both sides, and find a way to cope with them, until one day, the Force feels satisfied enough not to fight anymore.
Would being cut off from or deafened to the Force necessitate being unable to call upon the Force? How is Meetra able to use the Force if she's deaf to it? Is it all through her Force bond with Kreia somehow? How does Kreia use the Force if her two former allies cut her off from the Force and kicked her out of their Sith Order? I am not sure if a galaxy without the Force would actually be a galaxy without the Force. If hearing the Force's will becomes impossible but using the Force is still doable as demonstrated by Kreia and Meetra, then logically others should be capable of that too. Jedi wouldn't be able to follow the Will of the Force and Sith wouldn't be manipulated into fulfilling the Will of the Force. Everyone could just do whatever they wanted whenever they wanted without any external factors deciding their fate. Anakin wouldn't be a Chosen One who'd be destined to destroy the Sith, Sidious wouldn't be encouraged by the Force to electrocute Plagueis, Scourge wouldn't have seen visions of the future... actually would precognition even be possible without the Will of the Force being followed? Kreia could still see the future despite supposedly being exiled, cut off from the force, deafened to it, etc... Meetra still saw Force visions too... most of the past, but the one of Revan and Kreia were at least current if not visions of the future. Clearly we can all agree that Kreia's plan failed for one reason or another, and Meetra's Force wound was closed shortly afterward by her death. Likely the direct result of the Force deciding she's too dangerous to be left alive. Her teachings didn't live on past her death either and most of the galaxy returned to being fully controlled by the Force... Except for some legends like Vitiate, Plagueis, etc who tried to defy the Force but they were all promptly removed from their power before they could really pose a threat to the status quo.
Kreia and Meetra are two voids in the Force, connected by their shared traumas. When they joined forces, it caused a chain reaction between the two of them that opened a wound shared by the two of them. Said wound is what allows them to feel the Force again.
@@beskamir5977do you know how joining two negatives forms a positive ? I believe it works like something along those lines. The two separated are already wounded to a small capacity. But together, what was a simple cut through which the Force bleeds through without filling your metaphorical veins, now is a horrific inner wound that causes the Force's bleeding to accumulate inside them. One keeps the Force from evading the other. The Force is in some sort of constant feedback loop, entering and leaving the two of them at the same time.
See, I am three and a half minutes in and while your initial words had me believing and acting one way, I can say with full certainty that what you have to say for the rest of this video is going to be either an entirely new concept or a slightly different version of what I also see in what she does. To shorthand the main point of contention, I don't believe that she intends to kill all life or even exactly kill the force. But I do believe that what she intends to do would create a mortal wound in the force that would end up creating the end of all living things. The way she is dealt with allows the healing to continue and the force to recover to some measurable degree by the era of the Empire, but I truly believe from all I've seen that even the exile, they are a symbiote at this point. They cling to other life and while they provide useful service, they are living through the essence of others, and others are in turn changed through that connection. I originally was hoping with that whole Diad thing that Rey and Kylo would be revealed as Revan and the Exile's descendants. The Skywalkers being these glowing beacons of the force just like Kreia describes Revan and Rey learning through contact with force users the same way the exile did as her existence binds her to those around her but also takes things for herself in the process. It would have been nice.
No. She merely cuts them off from the Force, but much like Padmé, the masters simply lose their will to live, for their minds can not handle such reality, so their brains have their bodies shut down (this is possible to do in real life, btw).
If echoes travel through the Force and galaxy I wonder how and why Nathema was so well hidden? I mean Tenebrae did pretty much the same thing to that planet what Nihilus did to his victims.
0:00: Yes, but not life in the SW universes, apparently. 0:02 "Suicide by Cop", akin to James Cameron's views on Skynet in Terminator 1 and 2. (Ooh, nice, music titles at the description are welcome.) In my opinion, killing the Force is as extremely unlikely as killing a Multiverse or an Omniverse (don't take Crisis on Infinite Earths at face value in mind), for every universe destroyed will always have a parallel universe where it NEVER got destroyed, let alone was wrought by a Crisis to begin with. *It Doesn't Matter.* Speaking of Multiverses, I wonder how Force users and SW universe denizens would react after being -isekai'd- brought to universes where the Force hasn't ever even existed, like Arda/Middle-earth, the DC Animated Universe, the Babylon 5 universe, the Fullmetal Alchemist worlds, and so on?
3 weeks. Sorry it took so long.
He’s back!!! YES!!!!!
worth it lol
Don't fret. Right timing, this one.
Not a problem.
Sarah's voice was perfect for her.
Wish we got her to either cameo as Kreia or play a similar character in a Star Wars show. Such a wasted opportunity for her shakespearean not to get a passing appearance in another official Star Wars project.
The use of "An End, Once and For All" near the end of the video is perfect.
I appreciate someone catching that!
@@PapitoQinn I also agree with your statement about life being possible without the Force - The Yuuzhan Vong, for example, were a species entirely separated from the Force - Although their adaptation, as well as their adaptation into a society that found all forms of machine technology absolute heresy - Made it an evolution that wasn't entirely for the better. It could be said the entire species was a wound in the Force gone horribly wrong.
Say what anyone will of Mass Effect 3, its original music isn't something worth criticizing lots.
@@michaelandreipalon359 BioWare's games can vary at times between constant hits and the occasional miss, but the soundtrack always slaps, no matter the game.
@@thesecondromuluan8216 As i understand it the Vong were _still_ able to feel the Force with the only issue been their becoming deafened by it due to their constant warring ways making it impossible for the Force make itself known to them due to all the killing of life happening in their homeworld. Thus the Vong became "insensitive" to the Force until Luke and company managed to rekindle their connection to the Force at the end of the Vong Wars.
What Kreia ultimately wanted to do was level the playing field. She wanted everybody to be free of the Force's will, which is readily apparent in all Star Wars media, in which the narrative is always the same - letting go and fulfill the Force's will for balance at the cost of personal freedom. Ultimately, Kreia strove to destroy the meta-narrative of George Lucas' Prequels.
And thus, she had to fail, lest no media set in Star Wars would make sense anymore. She tried to save a doomed setting from itself.
She's basically Cris Avellone's middle stick to George Lucas's pro religious message. An intellectual atheist mocking a spiritual man.
Revan really is Kreia's student. They will go to any length to achieve their goals in the name of a percieved greater good. Adopting the tactics and culture of the Mandalorians and Sith in order to defeat them and betraying Republic to make the galaxy stronger. Taking the role of the living force by manipulating and using people including creating monsters and betraying the Jedi and Sith for an ultimate goal to achieve "balance" and make all life stronger.
This channel is a real treat, always enjoy coming back to it for new star wars uploads. Nice to know theres still people on here that really "get" kotor without having disgusting baggage like a certain someone with a well known kreia essay.
Should I activate Malachore ? Meetra kinda tries to pass her pain to her teammates. I might end the game with most of them cutting themselves off from the Force, though I'm uncertain about Malachore.
Yet, ironically, I think my Revan embodied Kreia's vision better than my Meetra. Because my Revan was not particularly interested in self preservation or stick to the mission. He just wanted to keep his friends and allies alive, so his allignment was fully neutral (forcing me to defeat Mallack through grenades, mostly).
The two times I would have showed more adherence to one of the sides would have been when I stood by Chuundar's side, and helped One. But that's only because I wanted to bring change to the system, now that the Sith were destroyed and the Jedi crippled (I wanted a mini nation of sorts).
Even so, the truth is, I was willing to challenge the Force's perceived will, as I was following a path similar to the old Rakata (except I destroyed the Star Forge). I used the Force, but still followed the path to oppose the Force.
My Meetra, on the other hand, is more interested in survival, and try to prepare people to defend themselves in the meantime. Yes, she's against reviving the Jedi, but she's using the Force for self-benefit mostly, without any particular opinion about it. She's not particularly interested in changing any system in any particular way, other than maybe keep the Jedi and Sith from reviving. I may need to review some of my approach to things in "KOTOR 2".
What's your take ?
Shout outs to the Vong fr. Gotta be one of my favorite force deniers.
The ironic part is that they hate living without it. But no matter how much they beg, it won't take them back.
The Vong did regain it at the end of the Vong Wars and at the end of the day they were just Meetra Suriks who needed a little "nudge" in order to go back to being like any other sentient race in Star Wars Legends.
@@javiervasquez625oh ! Ok.
This! I've tried explaining this to others but.. no to avail.
Apologies in advance, I'm dyslexic and I'm no good at writing long text walls.. but here I go.
The way that my mind perceives Kreia's attempt at deafening the force is similar to that of a psychotic break. A reliance on the strength of those who gather around you and then the sudden loss of that power and what it takes to survive, what it means to survive, and if death was truly an absolute.
Force wielders rely on it as they learn and grow to become more and more attached to the force, just the same and those who are force sensitive yet are unknowing of their own connection to the force consider the events around them to be just mere chance, luck and skill.. all the while building connections with others as a sort of passive bonding in the force (Think of Han Solo and how others find themselves gathering around him).
The exile was meant to be the psychological portrayal of connection, leadership and power.. similar to Revan but she was more focused on the people around her than the war itself.. and it is as such that makes me believe that Kreia understood that the moment that Darth Nihilus died, She wanted to see if the ability to thrive without the force could come in contact with the undeniable power of a force entity (Or, technically, the force itself) that could devour someone's connection to life itself and survive. Her idea was proven correct.. and she wanted to believe that death would not have been an absolute but a choice, a choice by those who had the power to make it and recognize it.. and that was the true lesson of strength. To believe in an ideal, is to be willing to betray it, just as The only power you need is yourself, as in the end.. there is only you.
Just my perspective, and it is likely a poor one at that.. riddle with errors and inconsistencies.
That was good. I don't see many flaws at all. I've read many comments that... let's just say were a lot harder to read.
Babe wake up, Quinny just posted again.
it's 3am. I feel like I'm watching a horror movie at this point. Thanks for this.
Heh. You're welcome.
As always, a wonderfully written and insightful video... I needed this after the Acolyte lol
Thank you! Although... I do have some things I want to say about that show. I think I'm gonna make a video discussing it. NOT REVIEWING IT. Just discussing it. Devoid of opinions...
Oh god the last episode of the show was so hella wack... SMH!
I love Kreia. I use her lessons in my day to day life also i like how you used the halo 3 music
I wanted to use one Halo 4 song but it got copyrighted.
@@PapitoQinn yeah youtube can be a shutta lol IDK if i said it right
force is a living being, it can die and regenerate, but the average human can probably survive without it due to their humanity, which is a force in itself which will always be in conflict with the star wars force, which is why the eternal effort of the force to lead things to balance.
* It is wrong to say that no one has died when cut off from the Force, arguably. Kavar, Vrook & Zez all die after Kreia severs their connections to the Force (and she makes it clear in the scene that she is not outright killing them with the power - instead she is making them like the Exile and giving them the choice / challenge to live as the Exile did). Past them there are Nihlius, Sion & Ajunta (& arguably Kreia herself), though those are all special circumstances and more artificial living after their natural deaths anyway. It is also pointed out that many Jedi on Malachor died because of the severance / silencing of the Force in the area. As Atris says (one of the few times I'd say she's accurate), it requires a strong will to survive such a sudden severance. BUT, as Kreia tells Atton on Citadel Station, this will likely be a risk only Force users & some Force sensitives will suffer (the sudden death), rather than some slow death (but survive that sudden death, and those that remain - aware or not - will have the opportunity to then thrive without the Force).
Regardless of the above & the video however, I still hold that Kreia never actually planned to try and cause an echo to silence the Force once and for all. Not as her Plan A at least. More like her new Plan B, after her original Plan A went catastrophically wrong.
Kriea makes this pretty clear when you face her at on Malachor. (Paraphrasing): "Now, the apprentice must kill the master. If you do not, I will kill you. And if I do not, then we are all doomed." The Exile putting a stop to her "plan" is Kreia's actual goal, so you can teach people to safely close themselves off from the Force if they so choose, and be better geared to resist its influence regardless. And killing her also severs her bond to the Exile, (somehow) giving the Exile the ability to cut their bond to Malachor and allowing that wound to close so that it stops killing all existence (which the Exile was inadvertently accelerating until then).
Should you fail, then Kreia intends to kill you, also ending the threat of Malachor (since without the Exile the wound at Malachor can no longer be kept open with no fellow wound to bounce off) and sending out the "Deafening" of unknown lethality to end the Force's influence over the galaxy (and likely making it impossible for the True Sith to truly invade since their Force powers wouldn't work either).
Should both fail to kill each other (neither able to bring themselves to make the final blow), then even if either die, the wounds will remain and essentially act as a bleed on the universe, draining its life as the Force inadvertently kills everything connected to it by continuing to pull the energy of everything into Malachor (think "Uzamaki" by Junji Ito, but without the weird/supernatural/obvious elements. Just a quiet, background spiral into death, as Nihlius & Sion were bringing about). And then who knows how far Malachor's influence would spread when this universe is killed?
(As for the plan that went catastrophically wrong, that would be Darth Nihlius. Kreia's first attempt at an Anti-Force agent, only for it to go too far because she acted more with vengeance than wisdom & foresight until she was stripped of her power herself).
They ultimately had a choice.
Give up the force & Live WITHOUT the force. Or hold on to that power & die.
A similar choice the exile made at malachor V
@@shadowbeast2276
yep
I also have a theory that Kreia’s plan to deafen everyone to the Force had another reason…
It could’ve been a backup plan to stop Nihilus.
He was simply too powerful, and while she really hoped, she wasn’t exactly sure the Exile would actually be able to beat him.
So, had things came to that point, deafening everyone to the Force would have been a great sacrifice, and it would kill many people, yes, but it would also starve her old apprentice to death and avert the terrible fate he would have inflicted upon the Galaxy, had he been allowed to carry on.
With each new video i'm impressed by how deeply you can reflect on Kreia as a character, her goals, her ideals, and her purpose. Lately, in the times of the new canon, sometimes it's difficult to see the force in the same way as before, but when I turn to channels like yours, I feel an old spark of hope rekindling in me, and I imagine that this was what Kreia wanted with Meetra, to be that light of comfort and hope, of fresh start and confidence, that no matter how drastic a change is, it is not the end of the world... yet
The old canon may be over but it's not going anywhere. I think we can find some sort of comfort in the finality.
To this day i wonder what would George Lucas say to Avellone's writing of the character of Kreia. It just feels so weird having all this introspection of his mythology only for the creator himself to remain completley deafened to it.
16:24 "Powerful and smart women have been deemed insane since the beginning of time" - Falka
I didn't get the chance to play Kotor 2, but I'm loving all videos related to them. Thanks for this!
Man I fucking love this game and the old canon, it was so cool
The first thing I do before watching Papito’s Kreia Conundrum’s is hit that like because I know it’s going to be a good video.
While watching Dot's videos, I always had a nagging feeling he wasn't getting the full picture. Watching your clips after, I came to a similar conclusion as this video, no offense to Dot, but I think this is the real motive of Kreia.
I love your view that Kreia is the real Sithari, that gives me an idea-- perhaps there are multiple "Sithari," which are paragons of different conclusions to the Sith philosophy.
"The Sith believe in freedom, even if freedom requires submitting to stronger power," Submitting to the force to gain its power.
Darth Bane was the Sithari of submitting to your own mortality and operating as a tool of the Dark Side to strengthen *its* influence, not your own. Of effectively taking the galaxy's gift of being strong, enjoying it, and passing it on because it wasn't yours to begin with.
The path of rejecting mortality was a path tread by many Sith: Darth Nihilus-- who's will wasn't strong enough to control the hunger which results from such feeding (like a rabid vampire); Darth Vitiate-- who wanted to consume the star wars galaxy, to gain the strength to travel the universe and rule over other galaxies as their god, only to consume them and move on (kinda like Sephiroth who wanted to become the god of FFVII's planet, and use it as a vessel to travel the universe doing the same to other planets like his parasite mother Jenova); and Darth Sidious-- who wanted to continue his thought-pattern through the force and clone bodies to be the eternal god of the star wars galaxy. There probably isn't a Sithari of this path, but if there was it was Vitiate-- it seems this path always ends in failure of some sort.
And Kreia, as you said-- paragon of the most "pure" form of Sith philosophy, to reject submitting to the force, which isn't your own power.
All paths end with the destruction of the Sith-- Bane's through the battle of Ruusan and the rule of two, Vitiate's with the death of the galaxy, and Kreia with the removal of the Sith's borrowed power.
The Sith don't "submit" their wills to the force to gain power, actually that's the reason why the chosen one exist, because the Sith impose their will above the will of the force, thus creating imbalance, their are literally a cancer.
They don't submit themselves to its *will* but they do submit themselves to receiving the power from another will-- because the force has a will it's an individual, regardless of what it wants, taking that power is relying on someone other than yourself.
The Sith submit to higher powers, at least temporarily-- to their masters, for example. And by accepting the universe's "gift" of force sensitivity, they are allowing something more powerful than them (the force) to give them power.
Darth Bane's Rule of Two explicitly states that seeking immortality is forbidden, because if you fail the sith die with you. So the Rule of Two demands you also submit to mortality. The Rule of Two is also more concerned with the continuing influence of the dark side than the individual users of the dark side- by concentrating it "like a poison" in just two people, and passing its influence down. Basically "accept that you're lucky to be a sith, enjoy the ride, and get off to let the next person on- the ride is more important than you."
Vitiate and Palpatine disagree with this ofc, and it can be argued such a commitment to the dark side instead of selfishness contradicts the nature of the dark side itself, but regardless it does seem Bane is right in that they always fail.
And Kreia is the most consistent because she doesn't accept the validity of being force sensitive itself.
@@elfather2045
Based on the way Kreia is explaining it, if Meetra was killed in Malachor V, the planet would send the screams from those who died there through the force to everyone, like a transmitter. The body would need time to adapt, to be deafened by it. But not all have such strength and/or patience. Those who do not have either one of them would die
This may be different, but if you’ve ever seen Naruto, Itachi focused more on his skills than his jutsu, to such an extent, even if he had went blind, he’d still be the most dangerous person to confront. His strength came not from his ability, but from his willingness to adapt & do something out of the ordinary. This is a small deviation but it does touch in a sense because, even in Avatar: Last Airbender, the benders and the ninja all relied on their abilities more than their actual skills, & many fell to Tai Lee, a non bender who had chi-blocking techniques & Lee, who had no ability with jutsu outside of Taijutsu, nearly beat one of the most dangerous characters in the show, merely by tapping into his true potential but still no gen or special jutsu. Sorry for the lengthy post
Nice comparison. And gives me greater respect for Itachi.
Allow me to do one too:
-Ironically, I think my Revan embodied Kreia's vision better than my Meetra. Because my Revan was not particularly interested in self preservation or stick to the mission. He just wanted to keep his friends and allies alive, so his allignment was fully neutral (forcing me to defeat Mallack through grenades, mostly).
The two times I would have showed more adherence to one of the sides would have been when I stood by Chuundar's side, and helped One. But that's only because I wanted to bring change to the system, now that the Sith were destroyed and the Jedi crippled (I wanted a mini nation of sorts).
Even so, the truth is, I was willing to challenge the Force's perceived will, as I was following a path similar to the old Rakata (except I destroyed the Star Forge). I used the Force to oppose the Force.
My Meetra, on the other hand, is more interested in survival, and try to prepare people to defend themselves in the meantime. Yes, she's against reviving the Jedi, but she's using the Force for self-benefit mostly, without any particular opinion about it. She's not particularly interested in changing any system in any particular way, other than maybe keep the Jedi and Sith from reviving.
One little addition to this: Kyle Katarn also cut himself from the force after falling to the dark side. Not many people refer to Jedi Knight games, but it happened. Anyway, great video
Always love seeing more of these videos. Nice job.
Love your breakdowns of Keria
Love your watching of my breakdowns of Kreia.
Another amazing and insightful Kreia's Conundrum. Keep these coming.
I love this videos dude, You do such good work.
I never believed Kreia wanted to kill the force. I always believed that Kreia just wanted the force to not be able to act on people. and for Jedi and Sith not be able to use it
My Meetra kinda tries to pass her pain to her teammates. I might end the game with most of them cutting themselves off from the Force, though I'm uncertain about Malachore.
Edit: Ironically, I think my Revan embodied Kreia's vision better than my Meetra. Because my Revan was not particularly interested in self preservation or stick to the mission. He just wanted to keep his friends and allies alive, so his allignment was fully neutral (forcing me to defeat Mallack through grenades, mostly).
The three times I would have showed more adherence to one of the sides would have been when I stood by Chuundar's side, accused Jolee's friend and helped One. But that's only because I wanted to bring change to the system, now that the Sith were destroyed and the Jedi crippled (I wanted a mini nation of sorts).
Even so, the truth is, I was willing to challenge the Force's perceived will, as I was following a path similar to the old Rakata (except I destroyed the Star Forge). I used the Force, but still followed the path to oppose the Force.
My Meetra, on the other hand, is more interested in survival, and try to prepare people to defend themselves in the meantime. Yes, she's against reviving the Jedi, but she's using the Force for self-benefit mostly, without any particular opinion about it. She's not particularly interested in changing any system in any particular way, other than maybe keep the Jedi and Sith from reviving. I may need to review some of my approach to things in "KOTOR 2".
I thank you for this video. It helped me to look at "KOTOR 2" with a new perspective. I guess I'm still trapped by those psychotic urges Kreia warned me against.
Such an interesting figure. I enjoy that Kreia admits she COULD be wrong
Well apparently saying some good things are not allowed on yt since it deleted my comment instantly so I know it's not you papi.
So I will try again. I'm glad you're ok and still uploading. Hopefully this goes through.
I love that you not only continue to make these videos, but the quality of your videos and presentation has improved.
Personally, I view it with the context of Kreia inflicting Deafness to the remaining jedi masters. In-game has these powerful masters basically as husks when unable to listen to the force. Now, with all/most life connected to the force, if even a fraction of that sort of damage is inflicted on all life. Especially for those untrained in such things, I could see it killing alot of the galactic population
There is actually an aspect of the Force that is beyond all of the "crude matter". This is the Living Force. Trying to kill the Living Force is like trying to square a circle, or make water dry, or clap with one hand.
4:07-6:00 Music from Vampyr 😀
Indeed! I used some in my Skyrim Serana analysis and it happened to fit here. I should probably add the music I used to the description...
@@PapitoQinnEven in old videos' descriptions?
You explained it amazing
But Kreia will always be complicated forever
Intersting point of view. However, when you think about it... this makes Kreia even more of a hypocrite.
As shown, the Force wants balance (as in the light side). Due to this, many people get caught up in the crossfires of battles caused by the war between sides. People die due to the conflict between the light and dark sides, the need for balance (technically, dark siders are the ones starting conflicts, others logically respond to this, but I'll get to that later). The ends (balance, which is definitely better than the dark side ruling) justify the means (the possible deaths of others thanks to war).
Kreia wants the Force's influence gone. She plans to, gradually or quickly, deafen everyone to the Force. Someone will die because of this, no matter what. The ends (freedom from the Force) justify the means (the deaths of others who need the Force). Are the two any different, besides that the dark side is always there? Wars will always happen, for one reason or another, with or without the Force.
Also, you noted that it might not be true that all problems are the result of sentient beings, but can you prove that? Is there any proof that the light side's wrongdoings aren't just simply the natural result of fighting the dark? What happens if the light side, the Force, ceases to fight the dark? We know what happens when the dark side takes over; life will suffer. We also know what the dark side does; it corrodes minds, it turns people to passion and evil. Is there any reason not to fight against that? People would die anyways, but if the light side wins, they at least die in peace.
You also stated that the Exile would determine the lives of others through their actions, but is that better? Now, instead of a presumably benevolent, powerful force guiding the lives of others, it's a singular mortal doing so. That wouldn't be horrible if not for the fact that Kreia encourages you to be selfish, to manipulate others for your own gain. It isn't often that Kreia praises a good, selfless act, even though that's the good outcome that you describe. Generally, she cheers on dark-sided choices, like respecting you for breaking the will of the refugees, or tricking Jorran into getting killed. Where is the hope in that? Under her guidance, you would destroy life, not save it. You would encourage hopelessness and despair.
I like Kreia. I think this is an interesting view of her ideology. However, it just goes to show that Kreia's ideology misunderstands the Force, and that its greatest opponent is herself.
I could get into a long discussion with you. But unfortunately I just can't afford to. Although it is interesting that your starting point is that balance is the light side. But then you ask me how I can prove certain things. Remember that I'm trying to view things from Kreia's perspective. The only reason, from her point of view, anyone would think that the light side is balance is because that's what the Jedi preach. And we just believe them as if they're in any real position to know more than anyone else.
@@PapitoQinn To be fair, it is Lucas's view. Nothing really contradicts this. The only one saying that the light side can't be the balance is Kreia. As you said, the Force does have a passive grip on life. The natural, "balanced" way would be to accept this way, which usually gives a positive outcome to people. The dark side is unbalanced since it corrupts the living Force. KOTOR 2 itself acknowledges this idea, what with the light side being stated to be acceptance of the Force, the dark side being control over it, and dark side corruption. Imbalance, as well as countless deaths from wars, root from the *dark side*, not the Force itself.
I do understand that this is Kreia's perspective, but it's strange that she has such views on the light and dark sides, considering she herself was a former Jedi, and should understand the Force. She should understand the concept of balance.
Edit: I think the reason people think that balance isn't found in the light side is because people see the failings of the Jedi and attribute that to the light side (ala Kreia). The Jedi are not the light side. They are simply an organization, a religion that tries to follow the light. Multiple other Force religions also try and sometimes fail to follow the light properly.
Yet the dark side is part of the force otherwise you wouldn’t have Sith Lords so….
And yes I did read this all the way through and you kinda missed her point is that it’s the same thing happening over and over and over again without a end to it so in her mind she basically came to a conclusion we ether kill it and hope that we can actually learn and grow without it or the second deafening it enough that it would allow for more individual choice in the matter rather than just blindly believing something simply because the force which may not even be benevolent causes as they have many deaths but at the end of the day it proves her point that if you strip someone of the force what will that person do for example take away the Jedi and siths powers and suddenly you have regular people who don’t know how to function without it
And better yet no Sith Lords running around as you said they cause most of the big stuff so therefore the logical thing
To do to reach balance is to therefore strip everyone of the force or greatly weaken it.
@@InfernoCleric384the thing is that when I look at Kerias philosophy she’d be correct in questioning the force and its nature as is it truly Good as your looking at it from and outside perspective you have to view it from the perspective of inside the universe as you have this energy thing able to manipulate and control life and able to get you to do what it wants you would be given this illusion of choice when you don’t really have any choice at all except to fulfill whatever the idea is of balance that it has hence you would say I don’t want to be controlled but to do so would mean going against the force itself starting to get the idea here? You’re essentially saying that there needs to be a change as who gives it authority to do such a thing? If we are going by an inside universe perspective if a billion people were to die and it were to be said to bring balance would you let that happen because it’s the will of the force?
@@InfernoCleric384reasonable takes. Fair points. I think to a considerable degree that Kreia is motivated by spite. She admits as much. Does she have deeper feelings and intend for higher ideals? Sure. But which came first? The higher ideals, or the the spite?
I'd posit that if she'd never been kicked out by the Jedi, blamed for Revan and his followers going off to fight the Mandalorian wars, she'd not have fallen to the dark side.
Then, additionally, if Nihilus and Scion hadn't turned and betrayed her, she'd have had no axe to grind with the dark side/sith.
My suggestion is that she developed her master plan as a result of being fed up with both sides and practitioners of the Force, then applied their actions outward and determined that logically, if the force hadn't been there in the first place, as a means of power and influence, which seems to manipulate its users in subtle ways, she wouldn't have suffered because of it, and the galaxy would by extension wouldn't have suffered because of it (and by extension it's users/advocates).
She had some ideas that the jedi didn't like, so they kicked her out as being responsible for Revan. So she tries the darkside/with, maybe the other team isn't so bad afterall. And they too hate the jedi. But hate wasn't exactly a solid bond, and their ideology caused them to turn on her, predictably. So the with weren't any better, just a different flavor. Opposite side of the same coin.
She wants to prove both of them wrong, and that she and her teachings were right. Then give both them the middle finger through unavoidable proof of the exile. That the force doesn't have to be the end all be all, the thing to abdicate responsibility to and to manipulate in a desire for power. The jedi and sith both are almost hopelessly hooked, addicted and dependent on the force to live and to do anything.
She's accepted the consequences of any death toll as worth it, both on a personal spiteful level, and on a deeper philosophical basis, as the eggs neccessary to break in order to make the force omlett. Freedom and self actualization, as maximum virtues, no matter the cost.
It wouldn't end all suffering or troubles, but at least from then onwards they would be as a natural result, and not due to an outside external source subtly influencing and manipulating events in a neverending schizophrenic need to balance itsel.
At least if we take "balance" in the sense of equalizing, then the force (and by extension the Star Wars universe) is an mmo game like neverending series of dev patches, updates, buffs and nerfs, that cause and ensure future updates, patches, buffs and nerfs.
Kreia sort of exists as an in universe meta critique and commentary on Star Wars as a whole. How the meta story never really changes, no lessons are learned, any progress is ultimately futile and there's always the next great sweeping galactic threat and conflict because we the audience want it, to keep us engaged and entertained.
Kreia, if she could see past the 4th wall would be horrified. We're the real culprits. The audience. We are the will of the force.
There are also the Yuuzhang Vong
I think attributing all the galactic wars to the force is giving a little too much to Kreia's argument. Many of the wars we see portrayed in star wars are started or caused by the Sith or darksiders, beings who directly go *against* the will of the Force.
The way I look at it is the Force is the organism and all the beings within the galaxy/universe are component cells within that organism. The "will of the Force" is simply the organism's attempt at perpetuating itself and therefore the collective. Any one of the cells in our bodies would die if it meant protecting the greater health of the collective. That is unless that cell is cancerous, in which case it refuses to die, refuses the will of the force, and in the long term causes the death of every cell in the organism, including itself.
If everyone in the galaxy was deafened to the force that would be like if every cell in your body suddenly decided to become a single celled organism, sure the strong would survive and they'd all be "free" but is that "good"
"Balance in the force" just means that life in the universe continues to be perpetuated at a sustainable level, that's why predation or hunting for food isn't of the dark side but genocide is.
When Kreia drains the Jedi masters of the force in the enclave the being that is deeply rooted in the force dies with it, that's why the Jedi masters died instantly. As it is not public knowledge, if a Jedi or Sith is taken from the force but is able to sever connection with it as the exile did, he/she would survive if Kreia managed to destroy the force. I remember that when inspecting the corpses of the Jedi for the loot it gives you a description that says something like "the bodies are empty, absence of the force". What happened to the masters is a small scale of what would happen. In non-intelligent beings or planets that are touched by force, which is all of them, I think that not even Kreia knows what would happen.
Even if you weren't touched by the force, if the planet dies...
And if we assume that all the planets are touched by the force as if they were a living being, something like each planet has Gaia. Bye galaxy
I wonder is She took into account the ( i was going to say human condition but starwars has more than Humans so) Living Condition of Sentence. Creatures are stubborn and i believe that even without the force the wars and needless death would not be halted whatsoever. While yes the force influences, has it influenced life in The Galaxy so much that even deaf to it will they keep fighting? Has it Caused a metronome of unending conflicts. Being deaf to the force doesn't mean that the deaths dont feed it still. I wonder if she considered this.
"War is a hunger. And there are those who's hunger is never satisfied." - Kreia
I think she did. It's an unfortunate reality, but war is inevitable. At least without the Force there's a chance for development. In our reality we still have war, but at least we've been able to reduce it. We were able to learn SOMETHING out of it all.
@@PapitoQinn that is very true. She's not the kind of person to not consider everything.
New vid!!! Sweet! 👍
Good to see you back mate
There are many species that rely on the force. Like the mariluka who uses the force to see. There has to be countless species who rely on the force in one way or another.
What if they adapt to survive without it ? In real life, many humans find ways to cope with their handicaps without mystical means.
Just discovered your channel, your content seems really good!
If I was to suggest an idea for a video, I'd be very interested in seeing a theory on who Mira's true father is. It's one of the only things in the games that I can't place at all, ever since Kreia had that line about her in the ending dialog I've been wondering who it could be, especially since it seems very weirdly specific. I've even read some theories that the Exile themselves could be her father, since she has a line saying the player is old enough to be her father, and one of the male face options is a redhead.
Thank you. I'm glad you're enjoying the content.
As for Mira's father. I might explore that if I get some sort of inspiration of epiphany on the subject. As of now, I'm not really sure who it could be either. The game doesn't give away much evidence for that.
if i had to slightly modify the disney sequels, i feel like making Alderaan a wound in the force would be smart, along with having Rey link with people and suddenly having their skills.
It doesn't need to be a KOTOR2 rip off, but having Luke cutting himself off from the force and having a grand epitome and becoming half way to Kreia in the trilogy would have been cinema.
Who would "sense" that Wound in the Force after Tarkin and all those Empire officers aboard the Death Star died? The Wound would definetly disappear eventually anyway either way like it did Malachor after a time so i doubt it would have been an interesting premise for the sequel trilogy.
@javiervasquez625 according to the wiki, (how ever reliable that is), Alderaan had a population of 2 billion, and then there's all that plant and animal life.
Even in the disney sequels, that Starkiller base blew up the Hosnian system. idk if there's a reliable canon source, but some 'collider' article says 155 billion people died there.
@@Balo168 I'm talking about the _actual_ Wound in the Force (the one who caused it) which in this case would Wilhuff Tarkin and all those Imperial officers who backed his use of the Death Star to kill millions of people and all the flora and fauna populating Alderaan's surface. With Tarkin dead there's no one responsible to sustain all those deaths at Alderaan making it impossible for a Wound to be formed.
Disney was too preoccupied at first with just copying the surface level details. "Memba' Star Wars?" Look! Lightsaber! Robot! Bad guy in a black suit! Stormtroopers! Spaceships! Millennium Falcon! Chewbacca! Big scary space station with colossal death laser that blows up planets! Mystery boxes! What's in the boxes?
Then they let the next movie go in the complete opposite direction of everything to "be different" for the sake of being different, and partly out of spite for the audience and "your star wars theory", and maybe just maybe because they didn't bother to plan ANYTHING out on advance, so the second movie was left to try to answer all the mystery box questions from the first one. And most of the answers felt purposely unsatisfactory. What's in the box? "It doesn't matter."
Then the third movie was a reaction to the reaction from the first movie
"Wait! Wait! Wait! Um actually..." and had to just shove square pegs into round holes wherever it needed and cobble something together that ultimately made little sense, but was an inevitability because they refused to plan ahead, and thought they could just wing it as they went along, after throwing away Lucas's sequel trilogy treatment he gave them. "Somehow Palpatine returned..." because we painted ourselves into a corner with the last movie.
Kreia's ideas and strategies are way too deep for the average audience demographic. She's too meta critical of the Star Wars universe and by extension the audience itself. Who mostly just want to enjoy the scifi fantasy escapism morality play, and not engage with it too deeply. She's almost a Debbie downer of sorts, pointing out the deeper in universe consequences of the things that most fans enjoy about the series.
The force has a will, because we the audience want to see more of the things we enjoyed about the original movies. That's why the force never balances itself. The closest it ever came in universe was revenge of the sith, or return of the jedi, depending on how you interpret "balance". If it did, we'd nolonger have the good magic sword fighting space wizard monk priest samurais fighting the evil magic sword fighting space wizard monk priest ronin.
Kreia is Nietzsche and heavy philosophy inserted into a Flash Gordon serial. She sticks out like a sore thumb, and isn't immediately easily digestible for a market audience demographic.
She begins and ends in KotoR 2 because nobody's likely to be able to follow up and build off her, except for probably the one who wrote her in the first place, without getting it completely wrong or inadvertently flanderizing her character or watering down her ideas.
Least of all the Mouse of Sauron who is buying up things because its unable to create anything of its own anymore. If it even arguably ever did in the first place.
Btw kreia was sort of nodded in canon in luke skywalker comics by charles soule in canon
I believe that, in a way, Kreia didn't actually want to win. As in she doesn't actually want to deafen the galaxy to the force even if that's what she plans to do(and will do if she wins). She seems to want the exile to defeat her. If you go back to the things you discussed in the "truly tested" video, Kreia positioned herself as the exiles test, just as she positioned Atris and Nihilus to be tests for her. She does for the exile what Revan did for the republic in challenging it. But of course the real battle is not the physical battle, but the battle of idea's. And in a way, I don't think she even wants herself to be proven right, she wants the exile to be proven right. The exile is perhaps free of the will of the force in a way that Kreia is not.
There's a bit of dialog that I feel backs this up where Kreia is talking about Atris, but it could easily be seen as her talking about herself as well, especially given that they are both Darth Traya. "She needed to be something you could confront and defeat one last time. It was part of your training, part of what you needed to make you complete. And there must always be a Darth Traya. The galaxy needs it's betrayers especially in the time to come. She loved you, you know, as one loves a champion. You were all that she could not be."
Well, it's pretty obvious we give her hope by being more positive, even if she won't admit it. Unfortunately for her...I agree with pretty much everything she states. Well, almost everything. Not all. So I can not give her that hope. Not yet at least. Not until I pass judgement on Atris.
maybe its the music, but I'd love to see you dive into mass effect the way you do KOTOR, where possible
I would say you understand her more then most
I SO wished this era would be crossovered with "Kingdom Hearts". So much of the latter's narrative and characters could gain so much from a crossover, especially when the recent arc entails to further accept the cycle of light and darkness is only one way to view the world.
As long as it's the Kingdom Hearts that should have ended at II. Everything onwards is plain apocrypha.
@@michaelandreipalon359the things that bother me after 2 are the lack of karma on certain characters (cough DiZ and Riku cough), and how suddenly it's possible to rebuild a person by somehow destroying their body, soul manifestations and heart projections. Oh ! And the monopolization of Sora (he's my favorite character, but come on, there's a whole cast to explore), not to mention how they acknowledge darkness as necessary by words, but by actions, they're still too influenced by light. And the excessive forgiveness.
What is it that bothers you after 2 ?
@@michaelandreipalon359anyway, while I get and share the feeling to an extent, it's post "KH 2" characters that need to visit "KOTOR" the most.
@@JabamiLain Simply enough, the fact that II was supposed to be the true endgame. They really should have kept it that way, and same with other works like First Blood, Die Hard, Dino Crisis, Dragon Age: Origins, and so on.
Complicatingly enough, some of the criticisms you just say, plus the fact that KH III isn't even an endgame at all.
@@michaelandreipalon359OMG ! "KH 3" was an abomination ! I almost quit the saga because of it !
Still, in defense of those who chose to continue the series, look at what Naminé did to Roxas. Her personal plan for him once merging him back with Sora was the classical "murder/suicide" case of a disturbed individual with no self love. To end the story with the glorification of such behavior...I could never. Though there would be more punishment around in my version of the story, and less gaslighting.
My hope now is that at least Sora breaks after realizing the bad joke he's been the subject of after "KH 1".
I think that most of the confusion comes from people referring to it as "killing off The Force" or just "killing The Force" when they should be saying "deafening people to The Force's will." I never played KOTOR 2 but I was firmly in the camp that Kreia's plans would kill everything in the universe because I was told over and over that she wants to "kill The Force." There is no example of anyone to my knowledge that actually is completely cut off from the force. Everyone, even those who have been severed from the force, are just unable to wield it. In some cases, like the Vong, even resistant to it. But I was always under the impression that they had enough interaction with the force to keep alive because metabolic processes do not function without it. You would experience cellular death without it.
The Exile for KotOR 2 is actually the only example in Star Wars (canon or otherwise) who was ever truly severed from the Force, not just deafened. It is why the Exile is considered a Force Wound and had no ability to use Force abilities until Kreia forced an artificial bond on her when the events on the Harbinger / Peragus occurred.
Before saying "but you can use the Force in-game", remember that everyone, including the Exile, comments on how even with her powers "back", they cannot detect the Force off her (and the Exile even states multiple times that the Force feels different now, like it is faint & distant). It is because she can no longer generate the Force herself anymore; as far as the Force in Star Wars is concerned, the Exile is no longer a "living" being.
What Kreia's artificial bond did was give the Exile a temporary boost, and the Exile's only special innate ability (Force bonding) kicked in to immediately start bonding to every vaguely Force-connected thing around her to "top off" her ever-higher capacity for the Force, and then passing the excess back to the things she is connected with. (Or in other words, imagine the Exile as an empty fusion reactor that's off the grid. Kreia pumped some new material into that reactor to power it up, and it instantly began pulling in more material from everywhere to repower itself and anything else that hooked up to it in the meantime).
> But I was always under the impression that they had enough interaction with the force to keep alive because metabolic processes do not function without it. You would experience cellular death without it.
Not too far off. The Exile mentioned that until Kreia began making her feel the Force again, she'd felt weighed down & miserable. She didn't need the Force to survive, but surviving without it definitely sucked and left her exhausted.
@@DBArtsCreators No but like biology isn't the same in Star Wars. Maybe if you go only off of KOTOR you might reach that result, but if you look at the rest of the old EU missing the force would be like missing RNA, mitochondria, and ribosomes. You literally would just die without it.
@@DarthCuddlefluff
Wrong. You are not guaranteed to die without the Force in Star Wars.
It is not the same as missing RNA, mitochondria, or ribosomes. It's like missing a kidney or a limb. That's all.
@@DBArtsCreators They literally work in cells to make them function. Midiclorians are essential biological structures.
@@DarthCuddlefluff
The other way around. Cells produce midoclorians. They are not maintained by midoclorians. The midoclorians are not essential.
im pretty sure thats vampire bloodlines music in the background.
Oh yeah, the Hollywood theme. I had the OST specifically to use in my Skyrim Serana analysis video. But I ended up not using much from it. I streamed VTMB too.
If Kreia is the logical evolution of the sith what would be the logical evolution of the Jedi ?. Complete obedience to the force ? The creation of a complete theocratic order that imposes its will on the galaxy in order to secure permanent balance for the force ? Or something else entirely?
I think your answer lies in either Luke or Asoka.
The Darkside is the Force's need to revolutionize things, even if it means unbalance itself. The Lightside is the Force wanting to walk on eggshells. So adherence to it, is to understand its both sides, and find a way to cope with them, until one day, the Force feels satisfied enough not to fight anymore.
One day we’ll get new canon KOTOR content
9:10 Is that the Hollywood Theme from Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines I hear?
Yes you do. I thought maybe I'd use some of the OST for this Skyrim Serana analysis video I made. I also streamed VTMB.
Would being cut off from or deafened to the Force necessitate being unable to call upon the Force? How is Meetra able to use the Force if she's deaf to it? Is it all through her Force bond with Kreia somehow? How does Kreia use the Force if her two former allies cut her off from the Force and kicked her out of their Sith Order?
I am not sure if a galaxy without the Force would actually be a galaxy without the Force. If hearing the Force's will becomes impossible but using the Force is still doable as demonstrated by Kreia and Meetra, then logically others should be capable of that too. Jedi wouldn't be able to follow the Will of the Force and Sith wouldn't be manipulated into fulfilling the Will of the Force.
Everyone could just do whatever they wanted whenever they wanted without any external factors deciding their fate. Anakin wouldn't be a Chosen One who'd be destined to destroy the Sith, Sidious wouldn't be encouraged by the Force to electrocute Plagueis, Scourge wouldn't have seen visions of the future... actually would precognition even be possible without the Will of the Force being followed? Kreia could still see the future despite supposedly being exiled, cut off from the force, deafened to it, etc... Meetra still saw Force visions too... most of the past, but the one of Revan and Kreia were at least current if not visions of the future.
Clearly we can all agree that Kreia's plan failed for one reason or another, and Meetra's Force wound was closed shortly afterward by her death. Likely the direct result of the Force deciding she's too dangerous to be left alive. Her teachings didn't live on past her death either and most of the galaxy returned to being fully controlled by the Force... Except for some legends like Vitiate, Plagueis, etc who tried to defy the Force but they were all promptly removed from their power before they could really pose a threat to the status quo.
Kreia and Meetra are two voids in the Force, connected by their shared traumas. When they joined forces, it caused a chain reaction between the two of them that opened a wound shared by the two of them. Said wound is what allows them to feel the Force again.
@@JabamiLain I'm sorry but I don't see how that makes any sense. It's so contrived.
@@beskamir5977do you know how joining two negatives forms a positive ? I believe it works like something along those lines. The two separated are already wounded to a small capacity. But together, what was a simple cut through which the Force bleeds through without filling your metaphorical veins, now is a horrific inner wound that causes the Force's bleeding to accumulate inside them. One keeps the Force from evading the other. The Force is in some sort of constant feedback loop, entering and leaving the two of them at the same time.
@@JabamiLain That still makes no sense! The Force doesn't work like that.
See, I am three and a half minutes in and while your initial words had me believing and acting one way, I can say with full certainty that what you have to say for the rest of this video is going to be either an entirely new concept or a slightly different version of what I also see in what she does. To shorthand the main point of contention, I don't believe that she intends to kill all life or even exactly kill the force. But I do believe that what she intends to do would create a mortal wound in the force that would end up creating the end of all living things. The way she is dealt with allows the healing to continue and the force to recover to some measurable degree by the era of the Empire, but I truly believe from all I've seen that even the exile, they are a symbiote at this point. They cling to other life and while they provide useful service, they are living through the essence of others, and others are in turn changed through that connection.
I originally was hoping with that whole Diad thing that Rey and Kylo would be revealed as Revan and the Exile's descendants. The Skywalkers being these glowing beacons of the force just like Kreia describes Revan and Rey learning through contact with force users the same way the exile did as her existence binds her to those around her but also takes things for herself in the process. It would have been nice.
I wonder - when Kreia kills the Jedi masters, is it the same Force ability Nihilus uses to drain life?
No. She merely cuts them off from the Force, but much like Padmé, the masters simply lose their will to live, for their minds can not handle such reality, so their brains have their bodies shut down (this is possible to do in real life, btw).
If echoes travel through the Force and galaxy I wonder how and why Nathema was so well hidden? I mean Tenebrae did pretty much the same thing to that planet what Nihilus did to his victims.
mass effect 👀
you rock papi
If it were done when 'tis done, then 'twere well done quickly
14:26 wait, are those Chaurus from Skyrim?
Laigreks, not chaurus.
They are about as tough as chaurus when you fight them though lol
kreia would smack you when you call her sith"ari
0:00: Yes, but not life in the SW universes, apparently.
0:02 "Suicide by Cop", akin to James Cameron's views on Skynet in Terminator 1 and 2.
(Ooh, nice, music titles at the description are welcome.)
In my opinion, killing the Force is as extremely unlikely as killing a Multiverse or an Omniverse (don't take Crisis on Infinite Earths at face value in mind), for every universe destroyed will always have a parallel universe where it NEVER got destroyed, let alone was wrought by a Crisis to begin with. *It Doesn't Matter.*
Speaking of Multiverses, I wonder how Force users and SW universe denizens would react after being -isekai'd- brought to universes where the Force hasn't ever even existed, like Arda/Middle-earth, the DC Animated Universe, the Babylon 5 universe, the Fullmetal Alchemist worlds, and so on?
so would the space where alderaan and the deathstar used to be also be wounds in the force?
Yes, in fact it is.
Series reminds me a bit of the old @The.RUclipsr.with.no.Name. dude. Whatever happened to that guy?
I'm not sure. Last time we spoke was a while ago now.
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