Forsaken simply means "abandoned or deserted" implying a landmark. According to Tolkien in rewriting the Hobbit he mentioned that Thorin and Company expected to find an inn they call the 'Last Inn' on the road east of Bree. This seems to be an earlier reference to the Forsaken Inn. This unpublished story element puts this inn to have been abandoned around TA2941.
Thanks for mentioning this, I personally had always assumed (without thinking too deeply about it) that the Forsaken Inn Aragorn mentioned was indeed just an abandoned ruin. There are no settlements east of the Bree-lands until Rivendell (in the Third Age anyway), and I don't imagine Dwarven traffic on the road was enough to keep an inn going.
@@TheRukisama I think it would be logical to assume that here were some settlements long the Great Road. There was a farm of some sort before the trolls ate them - as referenced in The Hobbit. Of course I wondered to whom they supplied their produce. It was many days from Rivendell and much farther from Bree. Was there once a small community, or perhaps they provided a high value product to the elves? I know not.
I was never able to picture them in my mind. Now I have two very conflicting versions. I just started playing the Hobbit ps2 game recently and the stone giants look like they're about 20 or 30 feet tall and hanging out on top of the mountains versus thousands of feet tall and part of the mountains in the movie.
I always took them to be metaphorical.... a child's description of a thunderstorm in the mountains. The Hobbit was a children's story originally, with Bilbo providing the child's perspective.
@Boco Corwin No, I do not.... just the rock giants. But I would say that the incident with the fox seeing Bilbo and wondering (not 'saying'; I was mistaken elsewhere) about a hobbit in the woods is done in the same spirit. Another example that seems close in spirit is the story of Bilbo's ancestor inventing golf after killing a goblin. These all seem like little asides that you would tell to a child, and not necessarily "real".
In the first printing of The Hobbit the three trolls that the company encounters were actually three giants. This was changed (among other things) in later printings close to the release of The Lord of the Rings to keep the two more in line with one another. It is therefore safe to assume that the reference to the "stone giants" was either a line that Tolkien and the publishers simply missed in the edit, and it should have been changed to "trolls", or that giant is actually an interchangeable word with troll, much in the same way that orc and goblin are two words for the same creature within Middle Earth. There is actually some supporting evidence that they are two interchangeable names for the same creature (though I don't believe there is ever any direct reference to this fact). In The Fellowship of the Ring Gandalf notes that Bilbo had actually lied about how he acquired the ring from Gollum- which is a reference to the changes made to "Riddles in the Dark" in the reprinted version of The Hobbit. This reference strongly suggests that the first printing of the book is perhaps the version of the story that Bilbo told Gandalf originally- and the reprinting contains the true events- thus when the first printing called them giants it did also mean trolls. Also in The Fellowship of the Ring, Strider states that the trolls migrate down from the Ettenmoors- the troll-fells located to the north of Rivendell. Etten derives from the Old English word Eoten, which can be translated to modern English as "giant" (this is also where Tolkien got the name for the ents). It is also very possible- although very improbable- that Tolkien was referencing 500 foot tall Rock 'em Sock 'em mountains having a bare knuckle boxing match right on top of the Company of Thorin Oakenshield. However, this is only supported by Peter Jackson's outrageous lack of restraint in the films.
@@davidkulmaczewski4911 but why does Gandalf talk about enlisting the aide of giants to help plug up the mountains then? Also the dwarves talk like they feared being targeted by giants.
A lady we know nothing about is one Tom Bombadil speaks of: "Fair was she who long ago wore this on her shoulder. Goldberry shall wear it now, and we will not forget her!"
@@TolkienLorePodcast I generally assume that if someone speaks of one who is "fairest" but he doesn't give a name... that he's referring to Varda, A Elbareth Gilthoniel or perhaps Lúthien (so ultimately, Tolkien's wife Edith.) :)
Given that Tom is friends with the elves from Rivendel, Farmer Maggot and the people of Bree he probably got it from them (my guess is the elves) and whoever did it told him a very complicated backstory but he just forgot about it.
Hi, nice talks. In Tolkien, a were-wolf was not a man cursed to turn into a wolf, but rather a Maia which had taken wolf shape. Thus, it was not a transformer, but a being with human intelligence and (likely) magical powers. Werewolves were common in the Silmarillion. Also note that Tolkien's book, "The Adventures of Tom Bombadil" mentioned were-worms in the context that if a hobbit is wiling to fight a were-worm, he (or she) is willing to do anything. Warm regards, Rick.
In The Hobbit Gandalf casually mentions that he wants to find a giant to plug up the entrance of Goblin Town. So does this mean that not only are there giants in Middle Earth, but some are friendly? We'll never know. As a further aside, it's mentioned in LOTR that the wall at Helm's Deep was supposedly built by Numenoreans with the help of giants according to legend. Did such beings perhaps exist in earlier ages, or they were referring to Ents?
In the Hobbit, the Company witnesses a fight between two stone-giants. Giants EXIST in Middle-Earth. They seem to be very territorial, very rare, probably limited to the Misty Mountains, and mostly assholes. They probably are considered beasts, as the Eagles, rather than intelligent creatures like Men, Dwarves, Elves and Ents, even if they can communicate
the unknown things that have plagued me are, Did sams cousin see an entwife on the north moors?, in fellowship it mentions ‘But what about these Tree-men, these giants, as you might call them? They do say that one bigger than a tree was seen up away beyond the North Moors not long back.’ ‘Who’s they ?’ ‘My cousin Hal for one. He works for Mr. Boffin at Overhill and goes up to the Northfarthing for the hunting. Secondly, who did the brooch belong to that Bombadil took from the barrow? thirdly why is there a talking fox in fellowship?
@@matthill263 Probably so. The earliest drafts of The Lord of the Rings are provided in one of the History of Middle-Earth books, and it was originally supposed to be pretty much like The Hobbit (and also a lot shorter than it ended up being). You still get a bit of that original tone in the finished book, particularly in the Old Forest and Tom Bombadil section.
Tolkien left so many mysteries for his readers to imagine. I think it’s what fascinates me about his works, and possibly what frustrates me the most. Like, you want to know what the Blue wizards did. What the hell happened to Maglor? Who is Gildor Inglorion? What of the Nameless things of Moria? Who is TOM BOMBADIL?????? Honestly, I feel that someone should resurrect Tolkien to ask him all these questions. But then again, that would make his world lose half their charm.
Theres a couple that I *like* but I am not sure if they fit in the spirit of the text, and are doubtlessly not what Tolkien had in mind. Regarding the fate of the two Blue Wizards, Tolkien seemed to waver between them failing in their task, but still being critical in stirring up pockets of resistance and making trouble for Sauron in the East; and in failing as Saruman did, eventually creating cults and groups of magic users. Some have suggested that the groups that started as followers or acolytes may have been corrupted over time, and eventually been twisted to evil, despite starting with noble intentions. But, they are often pictured as twins, identical in appearance. As such, I think it would be a particular tragedy, if one of Blue Wizards remained true to his task, whilst the other was corrupted, with the two brothers eventually slaying each other in a cruel fate. It also neatly combines his two fates for the Blue Wizards. Though there is nothing in Tolkien's work to suggest such a fate, a I feel it might appeal to his sense of dramatic irony in riffing on the various tragic fratricides in myth and legend.
The forsaken inn is a brothel (makes sense being on a highway). It is not called the forsaken in, it is called whatever name, but the insinuation is that it’s for the morally bereft. It’s like that home out on la grange
Great video, thank you. I've read all LOTR many times and idk how I missed Strider mentioning The Forsaken Inn. Going to get my book out and search for that passage.👍
Great video! It’s really sad we’ll never find out more about these things. But I guess leaving it up to the imagination can be fun as well. Loved this.
I would wager that the Forsaken Inn is abandoned because there's no longer enough traffic on the road to support it, so it is probably a creepy derelict ruin.
It sounds like petrol stations just before a motorway, or a long stretch of remote road...It would advertise itself as "Last bed and beer before the Wild".
When it talks about Aragorn going to the East and the South where the stars are strange they were obviously talking about a trip to New Zealand to make a movie.
I assume they're creatures Morgoth corrupted similar to the watcher in the water, they aren't expressly described or its origin (because evil can only corrupt but not create)
I always wondered what the octopus "watcher" thing in the lake in front of Moria. It was said to be a big scary thing that somehow got there ages before. Literally all we know about it is that it exists
I've often wondered about that also. It was unsettling that the monster went after Frodo, out of all the members of the Fellowship. Was the monster under the power of Sauron, or was his going after Frodo simply a coincidence? I love how the author leaves that a mystery--it's much creepier that way.
Great vid. Just a thought on Aragorn's fear of the Nazgul. Aragorn should be uniquely fearful of the Nazgul due only to the fact of who Aragorn is. He is supposed to be the King of Men. Those Nazgul were the Kings of Men. His time growing up in Rivendell would give him lots of knowledge of the Nazgul. And he would understand his unique connection to them and their fate.
They were never kings of "men" in that sense what Aragorn would become. And no the 3 Numenorean ones are also not THE Kings of Numenor, rather some noble individuals from Numenor wo were made Kings after they got the rings.
Where did the Dunedain live when they weren't Ranging? Who were the strange tree-like figures seen by Sam on the moors? How come Gandalf hadn't sussed out Saruman much earlier on? What's the cup that Galadriel needs refilling? Where is Gandalf when Frodo first sees him journeying in Galadriel's mirror, or was it even Gandalf? Who were the men of the old ways that built things like the Dunharrow and what happened to them? How come the Nazgul could ride around in the daylight but Orcs can't but the Uruk-Hai can and some Orcs that meet them from Mordor? Where are the other Palantiri? How do they work? What devil is Gandalf referring to when he uses the word 'devilry'?
We actually know exactly what Tolkien was thinking about when he wrote the line about the Last Desert and the Were Worms. In the original draft it was the Gobi Desert and the Mongolian Death Worms, a real life legend. Doesn't shed any more light on the nature of such a creature in Tolkien's works, but I do like to playfully ask where Mongolia or China are in Middle Earth get met with complete confusion as to what I'm talking about since it's such an obscure thing.
The term 'Worm' may not be what you think it is. In old English it refers to a serpent or dragon. see the legend of the Lambton Worm for reference. Since Tolken was a scholar of old English and Norse mythology, this would fit in very nicely in to the theme.
@Fesh Pince Yes. Wyrm is the root of Worm and the two are interchangeable. For example, here in the UK we have a animal called a Slow Worm. This is not a large earth worm. It resembles a snake, but is in fact a legless lizard. Here worm is used to describe it as a serpent.
I'm not sure which is more terrifying a a drgon-man or a worm-man. Maybe its the D&D/pathfinder player in me speaking but when I think wereworm it makes me think of worms that walk and those things are terrifying.
In folklore misers sitting on their wealth are sometimes said to turn into dragons, which would certainly qualify as a were-worm! I think Prof Shipley mentions this kind of transformation in one of his books.
I came for the Were-worms of the Last Desert (the capitalization of the terms itself it interesting) and was not disappointed. The quote was "Tell me what you want done, and I will try it, if I have to walk from here to the East of East and fight the wild Were-worms in the Last Desert." I completely agree Tolkien wasn't thinking of the giant worms of the Hobbit movies, I still appreciate that they made something of the reference. I would have wished for more detail on the "nameless things" that gnaw the world deep beneath Moria.
As others stated here, the Forsaken Inn could be an abandoned, ruined building, or a point of reference (maybe a standing stone, some pack trees left after the building was gone etc). And also, being a place Aragorn mentioned to the hobbits (foreign to those places), it must be a quite special place. Maybe it's a place where rangers have a camp (permanent or temporary), to watch the Great Road. Eriador was much more populated in the past, and now most of it lies in ruins, the population dwindling to just some patches of land, of which the biggest was The Shire. The Forsaken Inn it's just a small piece of a puzzle in a great story about the fall of civilizations the history of the Third Age is.
There is a mention of Mount Doom being in Mordor before Sauron began to rule there. “ and there was a fiery mountain in that land that the Elves named Orodruin. Indeed for that reason Sauron had set there his dwelling long before, for he used the fire that welled there from the heart of the earth in his sorceries and in his forging. “
having just discovered you channel i have to say that your take on these ideas is very intriguing, well thought out, and wonderfully explained. my only criticism is that there are no 'visuals'... i understand it is a small channel but even just some still images related to lotr and what youre talking about would be a big plus. i still love that i found your channel, and thanks for the content... im just saying that i believe it would help to have something related to look at
As for the "Forsaken Inn", I always pictured it as being abandond and ruinous. One detail I've wondered about is Legolas' mother. In THE HOBBIT, there is no Queen of Mirkwood. We know that Elves don't go in for casual dalliances, so Thranduil must have had a wife----what happened to her?
@@spencerfrankclayton4348Perhaps. But when, why and how? If she didn't die, she decided to 'seek the havens' and go to Elvenhome, abandoning her husband and child---again, why? (We know why Elrond's wife did so, for example.)
The mysteriousness of these things adds so much to the "how" of these stories. So many of us nerds focus on the "What" of lore, but not enough on the "how" and "why" and "what does it mean thematically"
Surely then one of the dwarfs would have said "Well you're in luck, that's exactly what we want you to do.", or even if the dwarfs didn't recognise the term, Bilbo would have used it more often if it was a common word for a dragon in his mind.
@@Jotari Unless nobody remembered the origin of the legend. My thought was that the legend initially was about dragons, but changed in the telling over many years.
According to the maps, Mordor, as well as the Sea of Rhun, was loacated where part of the Inland Sea of Helcar had been in the First Age. The destruction of Beleriand at the end of the First Age apparently caused that sea to mostly disappear, which then either revealed the mountains of Mordor, or they were created by the seismic activity..
Although I agree that it seems Aragorn had had a personal encounter, it could be as simple as Aragorn had just been told that the Nazgûl had routed and killed his rangers at Sarn Ford on September 22. His rangers had failed in their long charge of keeping The Shire safe. That was just a week prior as the hobbits meet Aragorn on September 29 so the horror of the tales that his surviving rangers told him would still be fresh. The part of Aragorn's story that I want to learn more of is the time he spent near Mordor. We got some interesting hints of what happened. (And, please, no one reply with a link to that awful fan film that doesn't bother to follow what little details the book gives us.) Who can read, "If a man must needs walk in sight of the Black gate, or tread the deadly flowers of Morgul Vale, then perils he will have" and not want to find out more even if Aragorn said, "There is little need to tell of them." Need? No. But I *want* to know more.
There's no better place to enjoy that sweet Nazgul experience than the beautiful Morgul Vale. Plus, the Witch King genocided his people. He's really terrible.
In my opinion Tom is a living extension of the music of Arda's creation. I imagine he's bound to a peace loving life in the forests and not the rest of Middle Earth's little squabbles. This literal connection to music may also be why he so indiscriminately transitions into song; songs which inspire, describe and abet in preserving good within the woods he inhabits.
I like this and somewhat tied to it is that he's the embodiment of Arda itself. "If the land itself would be conquered, then Tom Bombadil would fall. The music created Arda, so it's a bit of a semantic argument of being a manifestation of the music vs manifestation of Arda
I'm sure there is far more to Tolkien's mythology that we don't know, and it includes more than just characters that were briefly mentioned. Almost everywhere Tolkien's characters went, they met with some unique race, species or being, and there were a LOT of areas of Middle Earth that the characters never explored in the story. If the story didn't run through the Old Forest, would we know Tom Bombadil exists? If his characters never traveled through a mountain pass, would we have ever heard of the stone giants? We only know of the Ents because the characters went to Fangorn. We were introduced to the shapeshifter Beorn only because the party happened to pass through his territory. There are many more examples; these simply being the most obvious and memorable. It feels like we know so much about his world, but think of all the places the characters never went, and all of the unique characters or species that we will never even know we are ignorant of.
On Gothmog the lieutenant of Morgul, it could be argued that he's one of the Nazgul, which would bring the number of personally named Ringwraiths to two; Gothmog and Khamul the Easterling.
@@arte0021 Yes, Gothmog was an Orc in Jackson's RotK; however, that might not have been Tolkien's intention. Also, this was a different Gothmog than the Lord of the Balrogs who lived in the First Age.
Lord of the Rings Online put forward that Gothmog was an identity taken up by Eärnur, the last king of Gondor, after he was changed into a Cargûl wraith by the Witch-King.
What did the orcs/goblins of Moria eat? Also, when I first read the Hobbit I had the impression that Rivendell was the name of an inn (the last homely house), and that Elrond was its inn keeper.
i would suggest that during the hunt for Gollum, as being a time in which Aragorn may have also possibly encountered the Nazgul. not that he would simply volunteer such information. it aggrieved him to have the knowledge or experience with them that he did, and mention of the encounter would be of little importance in regards to the search for Gollum. after all, that particular effort was more about fact finding on "Bilbo's Ring" to determine if it was the One. Sauron's minions would be of no importance, except of the personal importance to Aragorn, in that would better allow him to survive any possible future encounters. just a thought though.
I was thinking the same. After release of Gollum the Nine were sent out, I think. At that time Aragorn needed to drag Gollum to Gandalf and elves so I wouldn't put it past to him encountering Black Riders either.
Agreed. That's the only time it's possible for Aragorn to have met any of the nine. Before hand either he or the nine were in hiding/not revealed to the respective enemy. Although I don't think Aragorn did meet any of the nine prior to meeting the hobbits in Bree. The moment where he stares into the distance and grips the arms of his chair in fear is explained by him thinking back to when it was explained to him all the details of what the nine are, how terrible they are to behold and the fact he is expected to stand against them and Sauron. I assume Elrond told him everything he knew back when he informed Aragorn who he really is and what is expected of him. (To become man's last symbol of hope and future king)
@@Wigalot also plausible. scary thought, Elrond may well have explained it all to him, and still he could have crossed paths with them during the hunt which would make them all the more dreadful to him. it's all plausible though considering how very little we know about the period in question. after all, much of pre-LotR Aragorn's life was revealed... but there are some gaps in the 80+ years he loved up to that point, so we may never know. sadly it's all left to speculation, and head canon. side note, Sauron is lucky Guts was not a part of Tolkien's Legendarium.
@@Jeremyhughes86 I agree its plausible but what bugs me is if the only piece of evidence he met any of the nine before Bree is him acting very sacred when talking to the hobbits then it's a bit of a stretch to conclude he had met them prior to that. 😖
“A bit scared”? His face was drawn as if in pain and he was clutching the arms of his chair. When it passed he wiped his brow. That ain’t “a bit scared.”
I always just imaged the forsaken inn to be an inn that was once prosperous but has fallen into disrepair/ was abandoned because of bandits or something. Also I always imagined Gothmog to be a black numenorian similar to the mouth of sauron
I believe that Aragorn's reaction when talking about the nazgûls at the inn is more of an authorial trick to give the reader some hint about what the "black riders" are. The first part of the book is working with clues about their identity all the way from the meeting with Gildor Inglorion who refuses to reveal it. Aragorn mentions "there are others. I know their number. I know these Riders." Then he performes this act of dismay, perhaps he is just thinking of what they are capable to do and that they now finaly are around again. I'm not sure that he actually met them earlier. First in book 1's last chapter "Flight to the Ford" their number is revield to the reader. The narration is building up more and more about them untill Gandalf in the first chapter of book 2 tell Frodo who they realy are.
Absolutely. But since Tolkien took considerable trouble to make his universe self - consistent it's reasonable to speculate how Aragorn acquired this personal knowledge.
its what makes fantasy the portal it is. no simplistic whodunit or detective stories here! but rich deep tales full of mystery wonder far horizons and immanent transformations. incredible strangeness, numinous awakenings and lands of hearts desire. and many tantalizing paths not taken and fragments unexplored, that broaden and deepen the world in the minds eye.
I'm still curious at the exact number of the Northern Dunedain after the Battle of Fornost. Like I get it both Rhudaur and Cardolan got decimated and only Arthedain remained but why did they move to the Angle? Was their numbers too small to repopulate Fornost for example?
If you think about how volcanic areas actually form, Mordor by all rights should be a beautiful place. The mountains would help guide rainclouds into the region, and the volcanic soil would be perfect for plant life and growth. I get the impression that it's only a wasteland because of Sauron's heavy industrial emphasis, destroying the land just as Saruman destroyed Isengard.
Sorta, not so much when there is regular volcanic activity, but as part of a combination of things I agree with manufactured desolation, especially the valley floor.
Forsaken literally means abandoned or deserted, so I'd take it to mean an Inn that was abandoned some time between the Hobbit and the Fellowship of the Ring as the Hobbit mentions there were several inns on the road to rivendell.
This might be too down in the weeds, but I would have loved to have known more about the kings of Gondor, and Gondor's history during the three millennia between Isildurs death and the events of LOTR. I know that Tolkien wrote a bit about it in the appendices and in the Silmarillion, but it's really only the barest of summaries. I'm actually currently writing my own fanfiction account on the subject called "the Shaping of Gondor."
Nice video... a few comments. I always took the 'forsaken inn' to mean that it had been abandoned; I pictured something similar to the abandoned farmer's house in The Hobbit movie. A broken down, forsaken building from a happier time.... Perhaps Aragorn encountered the Nazgul during his travels with Gollum in the years before meeting Frodo.... I believe he found him somewhere near Mordor after he had been captured, tortured, and released by Sauron, and eventually left him with Thranduil's elves in Mirkwood. This would put him east of the river and in close proximity to Mordor and Minas Morghul, both likely spots to encounter a Nazgul. There's a line in The Silmarillion that mentions the Numenoreans bringing corn (a generic term meaning grain; not maize) and iron to the men of middle earth, and teaching them to till the earth... implying that they had degraded back to a neolithic, pre-agricultural lifestyle. In the stub of the story Tal Almar (sp?) that you mention, the town leader mentions 'knappers', which are craftsmen who chip (knapp) flint to make stone arrowheads. I think this supports men in the 2nd Age living literal stone-age lives. Did you mention the Cats of Queen Beruthiel? Aragorn makes an offhand comment about them on the road to Rivendell, and they are acknowledged (along with Bombadil) as being a full mystery with no prior references in any of Tolkien's earlier works. Note that originally Sauron was called (I believe) Tevildo, and would transform into a giant cat.... 'Worm' (or Wyrm) is another term for dragon, so I figured 'wereworm' was yet another word for dragons. Another one.... at the beginning of The Hobbit, there is a talking fox who comments on how unusual it is to see a hobbit so far from the comforts of home. It is one of very few talking animals in any of Tolkien's works (others being Huan the Hound of Valinor, and Eorl the Young's Horse, Felaroth). It's usually explained away as simply being an artifact of The Hobbit being originally a children's bedtime story. I took this as the likely explanation for the 'stone giants'..... it was just a child's description of thunder in the mountains.
The Forsaken Inn is in italics and capitalized, so presumably that’s its proper name, and it would be weird if it was given a new name after it was no longer in use. As to the cats of Beruthiel, Tolkien actually does give out a bit of info on them somewhere, though I don’t recall off hand the specific source.
@@TolkienLorePodcast Since I got the audiobook versions, I haven't actually *read* LOTR in a couple of decades, so some details like this have faded..... thanks! Have you done anything about the Westron language, and the 'true' hobbit names? E.g., "Frodo" is actually named "Maura", "Sam" was "Ban" (and the gaffer was "Ran"), "Pippin" was "Razar", and "Merry" was "Kali". Also, the actual word for "hobbit" was "Kuduk".....
Sm The conjecture of a casual fan of LOTR and a complete outsider to most geeky in-group knowledge, and who is also hearing about most of this for the first time: “The forsaken inn”: sounds like some sort of infamous haunted place. Perhaps it’s something like the barrow downs. “The memory was evil.” In the grammar of storytelling you connect what’s unclear to what already has been clearly established. (This is also a well-known hermeneutical rule when academics study nonfiction but my post is gonna be too long as it is.) The one specific action we actually do know about Aragorn and Gandalf performing together previously (here I’m expecting to be corrected by a less casual fan, but it’s all that springs to mind for me) is tracking Gollum. I suppose they ran into goblins or something while searching in there or going in there to find a possible lead or to take a shortcut or who knows what. (He did live in a cave mainly inhabited by goblins before, after all.) The line is meant to give you a sense of these two having gone through quite a lot to nab the little baby-eater. Has Aragon ever encountered the Ringwraiths before when they haven’t been active in-eighty-seven years, you say? He may be remembering the black breath (I think that’s what it’s called? You know, the Dementor-like emotional effect-man did Rowling ever rip that off-that all beings like them cause) coming from something else, or he has experience with actual wraiths or the undead and figures they’re probably all alike. Gothmog I can’t do much with: indeed I don’t really know who you’re talking about. But from how you make it sound? Probably he’s just some higher-up who arbitrarily named himself after a famous figure on his side for the sake of tradition or boasting or-I don’t know, fanboyism? Perhaps the reason Forgot-My-Name got the role of Sauron’s mouth is that while the nine Ringwraiths had to be slow-burn mind-controlled (or something) through their rings or else they might not be as loyal (we don’t know), he is a sincere fanatic of his own accord with just as much clout as a soldier and sorcerer. Think Bellatrix to his Voldemort (only minus the offscreen sex-I think and hope). “Worm” has an old-timey alternate definition of “dragon” (and you know Tolkien loves him some old-timey word usage). The “were-“ prefix is what’s confusing. Perhaps there was a person or creature that could shapeshift into one?
Elrond doesn’t say he’s known as Beorn. “Iarwain Ben-adar we called him, oldest and fatherless. But many another name he has since been given by other folk: Forn by the Dwarves, Orald by Northern Men, and other names beside. He is a strange creature, but maybe I should have summoned him to our Council.”
@@TolkienLorePodcast ok thanks for clearing that up miss heard it loving the audio books on our audiobook playlist makes me want to read the books again and the new 3 books and older lesser known enjoying your podcast too
I would interpret the "forsaken" in "The Forsaken Inn" as "abandonded". It was the last Inn on the road back when the road carried enough traffic to support an inn a days ride from Bree, now it is abandoned ruin, but still standing as a landmark for travellers.
Re the "Last Desert": I've wondered if this is a reference to the eastern continent that may be beyond Middle Earth. IIRC, some of Tolkien's early diagrams of the world of Middle Earth show Aman (the land of the gods in the west), Middle Earth, and a largely unlabelled third continent in the east. I'm not aware of Tolkien ever actually explicitly saying anything about this eastern continent but I think it is implied to be largely desert. For instance, I think it gets referred to somewhere as 'the Lands of the Sun'. Also, as Middle Earth is named after the Norse Midgard, the world of humans, it might make sense that if the western continent of Aman is Asgard/Heaven, the eastern continent is in some way Muspelheim/the land of fire/Hell. This is all pretty vague. The diagrams showing the eastern continent are from pretty early on and I've no idea if Tolkien still pictured the world that way by the time he was writing The Hobbit. They're also meant to show the lay-out of the world during the First Age and there's no indication AFAIK if anything happened to the eastern continent as a result of the shape of the world changing at the end of the Second Age. Also, if the Last Desert is the eastern continent, how would Bilbo have ever heard of it? We're told that the Numenoreans traveled pretty much everywhere in the world before the fall of Numenor, so it might be that the idea has been passed down as folklore since then.
Well speaking to the choire but what makes mr T:s work so immersive is the deep world-building together with the allusions to things not fully explained an mysterious.
I've posted about this before, but it is just not plausible that nobody would ever have measured the main East-West Road from the Grey Havens to Imladris. In the Third Age, and for the latter part of the Second Age, it was one of the main thoroughfares of Arnor, and it was the main route from Lindon and the Havens to and from Imladris, as well as running on to become the main thoroughfare to the realms of Thranduil, Esgaroth, Dale and Erebor. The distance of such a road would be extremely valuable information for all the cultures that used it for transport and communication, and the Eldar and Dunedain would have had little technical difficulty in accurately measuring it. Its length, once measured, would not have been forgotten in Imladris, and it would have been very useful information for the Rangers of Eriador, up to and including Aragorn, to know.
Tolkein was great with details, but not perfect, especially with distances. In contrast, btw, another noteworthy writer, Stehen King, absolutely sucks with distances. Tolkein is much better with tracking time, moon phases (very rare in novelists) and a great many other things, so I just mostly overlook his fuzzy distances.
"The Life and Times of Aragorn" would make a fantastic setting for a lengthy series of books or movies. How long is the intellectual copyright for LOTR?
Wyrm in old English is dragon. The forsaken inn is the last piece of the old town/village in the shadow of weather top. A crucial, pivotal place for the realm of Arnor first, then Rhuddaur & Cardolan by their north/south border. The watch tower at weathertop once contained the master seeing stone, Palantir, larger & more powerful than the rest.
Hi :-) I've got a question regarding Sauron's biography that seems quite open to me. Do you think he continued to serve Morgoth after being defeated by Lúthien and Huan or did he live as a reclusive renegade until the war of wrath was over?
I imagine he continued to serve him. It seems at least slightly implied by the fact that he’s still around and asking for mercy after the War of Wrath.
@@TolkienLorePodcast Thanks. It's funny that you interpret this bid for mercy other than I sometimes do. I figured he could have made a case to Eonwe à la "well, I reached an agreement with an Elven princess, and haven't actively supported Morgoth for 80 years, so don't count me as an enemy". The question is, was Sauron the only servant of Morgoth to surrender or was he the only one who was even offered this option? I surmise the Valar wanted at least all the Balrogs and Dragons killed by default, but that is just speculation.
Fun video! - I have a theory about Aragorn's earlier encounter with the Nazgul - I think he must have had some sort of mission to Minus Morgul. They were based there as they awaited Sauron's return to strength.
How about the dwarves? We don't get to know more about the other 6 dwarven lines. Also it is a bit mystical the hobbits real origin. One thing that always comes to my mind is about radagast and whether he helped at all in the end
I think that a video about things we know but the characters don't would also be an interesting idea, either about lore stuff or things like that Gandalf is a Maia witch most people don't know
That's so meta the ultimate in reliable narrators informs us the mouth of Sauron forgets his own name. Maybe a thematic recurrence that evil corrupts you so entirely to the extent you lose your own identity
I believe while looking into more about treebeard it explained exactly what mordor used to be. The forest of fanghorn used to span across all of middle earth. If I read correctly it explained that mordor used to be the garden of the entwives
wereworms might also refer to humans or human like creatures that had 'worm-like' lifestyles, maybe goblins that dug underground or even misunderstood ideas about the dwarves
People found a large desert in the east, saw the wereworms and decided there wasn't anything important on the otherside, thus the name 'last desert'. :D
There was a fox, in the beginning of TFOTR who we get told what it is thinking when he sees the hobbits leaving The Shire. I always felt that was random and out of place, personally.
@@NobleBruv I think it's remnant of the Hobbit, starting lotr as a children's book before making it more serious... In world I see Bilbo's writing there, vs Frodo's more serious writing later on.
Frodo and Gondor could observe that all who join Sauron become thralls. You don't need to know someone's name to see they probably forgot themselves under thrall.
Where did the spider-like creatures that lived in Nan Dungortheb before Ungoliant came to live there and vreed with them cine from? The Nameless Things under Moria.
Queen Beruthiel and her cats, was the one I thought you would mention, I agree with Toxic Tony, worm might mean dragon (I think probably) and so wereworm means some kind of Dragonmen some corrupted being of Morgoth or Sauron?
@@TolkienLorePodcast apparently she was a Numenorian from Umbar who married into the Gondorian royal line probably in an attempt to cement an alliance with Umbar. Unfortunately it did not appear to turn out well!
The Watcher in the Water. First time I read LotR, I thought that the Watcher and the Balrog were the same thing, because Gandalf later described the Balrog as slimy and strangling when not on fire. Also the Hobbit: Hobgoblins. Side note: were-worm would have been a man-snake I guess, because "worm" in old English and Norse almost always means snake.
@@TolkienLorePodcast Yes, sir. I preordered it from Amazon the day it went it up!! God Bless and Merry Christmas (Happy Holidays if you're Jewish or other religion) to you and your family ;-).
Lol. It would seem to be a variant of werewolf, denoting a human who becomes a dragon (like Fafnir in The Volsunga Saga who became a dragon to punish him for kinslaying).
I always thought the Forsaken Inn was merely isolated, not creepy or dangerous. I see it as a solitary welcoming place in an otherwise dangerous wilderness.
more mysteries: Beorn the skin changer from the Hobbit. Queen Beruthiel. Wood Woses. Origins of Trolls. The Mountain Giants that throw stones. Vampires (in the tale of Beren and Luthien). Were Wolves (The tale of Beren and Luthien). The origin and fate of Ungoliant; also how she was able to almost kill Melkor-Morgoth, but not the Balrogs. The fate of the Avari (the novel only stated that the Noldor (the Elves in the story) and the Sylvan Elves (Legolas' people) took the straight road to Aman. The fate of the Dwarfs. The fate of Sauron and Saruman (as they are Maiar they cannot die). The Haradrim and the Easterlings. The Black Númenóreans The Barrow Wights To name a few, lol. There's always more.
Were-worms -- I see these as being more like the archaic meaning of 'worm' -- for a dragon or wyvern type creature. But a 'man-dragon'? It brings to mind Ursula K Le Guin's "Earthsea" books where there literally were humans who could turn into dragons (in the lore of that world, humans and dragons were once all the same and split off into separate lineages, but some humans still retained their dragon-nature).
Forsaken simply means "abandoned or deserted" implying a landmark. According to Tolkien in rewriting the Hobbit he mentioned that Thorin and Company expected to find an inn they call the 'Last Inn' on the road east of Bree. This seems to be an earlier reference to the Forsaken Inn. This unpublished story element puts this inn to have been abandoned around TA2941.
Very interesting remark. So in which version of the Hobbit exactly can this be found? Could you pelase clarify?
My first though was a Dunedain inn, for the few remaining ones alive around.
Thanks for mentioning this, I personally had always assumed (without thinking too deeply about it) that the Forsaken Inn Aragorn mentioned was indeed just an abandoned ruin. There are no settlements east of the Bree-lands until Rivendell (in the Third Age anyway), and I don't imagine Dwarven traffic on the road was enough to keep an inn going.
@@TheRukisama I think it would be logical to assume that here were some settlements long the Great Road. There was a farm of some sort before the trolls ate them - as referenced in The Hobbit. Of course I wondered to whom they supplied their produce. It was many days from Rivendell and much farther from Bree. Was there once a small community, or perhaps they provided a high value product to the elves? I know not.
Early version of a hiker shack* or hostel.
* AT, TA and other modern day trails
My favorite obscure reference in The Hobbit is the stone giants. I was always sort of curious about them, which I guess was the point.
I was never able to picture them in my mind. Now I have two very conflicting versions. I just started playing the Hobbit ps2 game recently and the stone giants look like they're about 20 or 30 feet tall and hanging out on top of the mountains versus thousands of feet tall and part of the mountains in the movie.
I always took them to be metaphorical.... a child's description of a thunderstorm in the mountains. The Hobbit was a children's story originally, with Bilbo providing the child's perspective.
@Boco Corwin No, I do not.... just the rock giants. But I would say that the incident with the fox seeing Bilbo and wondering (not 'saying'; I was mistaken elsewhere) about a hobbit in the woods is done in the same spirit. Another example that seems close in spirit is the story of Bilbo's ancestor inventing golf after killing a goblin. These all seem like little asides that you would tell to a child, and not necessarily "real".
In the first printing of The Hobbit the three trolls that the company encounters were actually three giants. This was changed (among other things) in later printings close to the release of The Lord of the Rings to keep the two more in line with one another. It is therefore safe to assume that the reference to the "stone giants" was either a line that Tolkien and the publishers simply missed in the edit, and it should have been changed to "trolls", or that giant is actually an interchangeable word with troll, much in the same way that orc and goblin are two words for the same creature within Middle Earth.
There is actually some supporting evidence that they are two interchangeable names for the same creature (though I don't believe there is ever any direct reference to this fact). In The Fellowship of the Ring Gandalf notes that Bilbo had actually lied about how he acquired the ring from Gollum- which is a reference to the changes made to "Riddles in the Dark" in the reprinted version of The Hobbit. This reference strongly suggests that the first printing of the book is perhaps the version of the story that Bilbo told Gandalf originally- and the reprinting contains the true events- thus when the first printing called them giants it did also mean trolls.
Also in The Fellowship of the Ring, Strider states that the trolls migrate down from the Ettenmoors- the troll-fells located to the north of Rivendell. Etten derives from the Old English word Eoten, which can be translated to modern English as "giant" (this is also where Tolkien got the name for the ents).
It is also very possible- although very improbable- that Tolkien was referencing 500 foot tall Rock 'em Sock 'em mountains having a bare knuckle boxing match right on top of the Company of Thorin Oakenshield. However, this is only supported by Peter Jackson's outrageous lack of restraint in the films.
@@davidkulmaczewski4911 but why does Gandalf talk about enlisting the aide of giants to help plug up the mountains then? Also the dwarves talk like they feared being targeted by giants.
A lady we know nothing about is one Tom Bombadil speaks of: "Fair was she who long ago wore this on her shoulder. Goldberry shall wear it now, and we will not forget her!"
Good one!
@@TolkienLorePodcast I generally assume that if someone speaks of one who is "fairest" but he doesn't give a name... that he's referring to Varda, A Elbareth Gilthoniel or perhaps Lúthien (so ultimately, Tolkien's wife Edith.) :)
In this case Bombadil is clearly referring to a human who lived in Arnor though.
@@TolkienLorePodcast Works for me... we can add this for a future video... :) "Who lived in Arnor?"
Given that Tom is friends with the elves from Rivendel, Farmer Maggot and the people of Bree he probably got it from them (my guess is the elves) and whoever did it told him a very complicated backstory but he just forgot about it.
Hi, nice talks.
In Tolkien, a were-wolf was not a man cursed to turn into a wolf, but rather a Maia which had taken wolf shape. Thus, it was not a transformer, but a being with human intelligence and (likely) magical powers. Werewolves were common in the Silmarillion.
Also note that Tolkien's book, "The Adventures of Tom Bombadil" mentioned were-worms in the context that if a hobbit is wiling to fight a were-worm, he (or she) is willing to do anything.
Warm regards, Rick.
In The Hobbit Gandalf casually mentions that he wants to find a giant to plug up the entrance of Goblin Town. So does this mean that not only are there giants in Middle Earth, but some are friendly? We'll never know. As a further aside, it's mentioned in LOTR that the wall at Helm's Deep was supposedly built by Numenoreans with the help of giants according to legend. Did such beings perhaps exist in earlier ages, or they were referring to Ents?
In the Hobbit, the Company witnesses a fight between two stone-giants. Giants EXIST in Middle-Earth. They seem to be very territorial, very rare, probably limited to the Misty Mountains, and mostly assholes. They probably are considered beasts, as the Eagles, rather than intelligent creatures like Men, Dwarves, Elves and Ents, even if they can communicate
* cough * Blue Wizards * cough *
There are actually some answers for the blue wizards
for example, they're blue, they're wizards, they were not involved in the war of the ring, and........
@@highviewbarbell ..their names were Alatar and Pallando. And they probably failed.
New message: Love the description in your channel! : )
the unknown things that have plagued me are, Did sams cousin see an entwife on the north moors?, in fellowship it mentions ‘But what about these Tree-men, these giants, as you might call them? They do say that one bigger than a tree was seen up away beyond the North Moors not long back.’ ‘Who’s they ?’ ‘My cousin Hal for one. He works for Mr. Boffin at Overhill and goes up to the Northfarthing for the hunting.
Secondly, who did the brooch belong to that Bombadil took from the barrow?
thirdly why is there a talking fox in fellowship?
The fox doesn’t talk, it thinks. ;)
@@TolkienLorePodcast That seemed like a throwback to the Hobbit. Like Tolkien had forgotten to change gears until he was well into the book.
@@matthill263 Probably so. The earliest drafts of The Lord of the Rings are provided in one of the History of Middle-Earth books, and it was originally supposed to be pretty much like The Hobbit (and also a lot shorter than it ended up being). You still get a bit of that original tone in the finished book, particularly in the Old Forest and Tom Bombadil section.
Tolkien left so many mysteries for his readers to imagine. I think it’s what fascinates me about his works, and possibly what frustrates me the most.
Like, you want to know what the Blue wizards did. What the hell happened to Maglor? Who is Gildor Inglorion? What of the Nameless things of Moria? Who is TOM BOMBADIL??????
Honestly, I feel that someone should resurrect Tolkien to ask him all these questions. But then again, that would make his world lose half their charm.
Theres a couple that I *like* but I am not sure if they fit in the spirit of the text, and are doubtlessly not what Tolkien had in mind.
Regarding the fate of the two Blue Wizards, Tolkien seemed to waver between them failing in their task, but still being critical in stirring up pockets of resistance and making trouble for Sauron in the East; and in failing as Saruman did, eventually creating cults and groups of magic users. Some have suggested that the groups that started as followers or acolytes may have been corrupted over time, and eventually been twisted to evil, despite starting with noble intentions.
But, they are often pictured as twins, identical in appearance. As such, I think it would be a particular tragedy, if one of Blue Wizards remained true to his task, whilst the other was corrupted, with the two brothers eventually slaying each other in a cruel fate. It also neatly combines his two fates for the Blue Wizards.
Though there is nothing in Tolkien's work to suggest such a fate, a I feel it might appeal to his sense of dramatic irony in riffing on the various tragic fratricides in myth and legend.
Who was King Bladorthin?
The forsaken inn is a brothel (makes sense being on a highway). It is not called the forsaken in, it is called whatever name, but the insinuation is that it’s for the morally bereft. It’s like that home out on la grange
Oh, there's a house in Armor they call the Forsaken Inn. It's been the ruin of many a poor boy...
Great video, thank you. I've read all LOTR many times and idk how I missed Strider mentioning The Forsaken Inn. Going to get my book out and search for that passage.👍
If Gandalf and Aragorn knew how bad moria was think of how badass they were going back.
Great video! It’s really sad we’ll never find out more about these things. But I guess leaving it up to the imagination can be fun as well. Loved this.
I would wager that the Forsaken Inn is abandoned because there's no longer enough traffic on the road to support it, so it is probably a creepy derelict ruin.
So it's an inn that is forsaken. Or maybe it's an inn the rangers frequent / defend / run.
@@earlofdoncaster5018
It's obviously known to The Rangers.
Perhaps they use it as a temporary shelter
It sounds like petrol stations just before a motorway, or a long stretch of remote road...It would advertise itself as "Last bed and beer before the Wild".
When it talks about Aragorn going to the East and the South where the stars are strange they were obviously talking about a trip to New Zealand to make a movie.
What about the creatures that Gandalf saw while he was falling down the chasm in Moria? I expected them to be mentioned in this video
I think that this could be the reason for why Aragorn didn´t want to go through Moria again.
@@darktom9067 Or it could just be food poisoning from drinking tainted water.
Yeah, me too... we only know they are "nameless" how intriguing lol
I assume they're creatures Morgoth corrupted similar to the watcher in the water, they aren't expressly described or its origin (because evil can only corrupt but not create)
This is one of your best videos! Thank you so much!
I always wondered what the octopus "watcher" thing in the lake in front of Moria. It was said to be a big scary thing that somehow got there ages before. Literally all we know about it is that it exists
I've often wondered about that also. It was unsettling that the monster went after Frodo, out of all the members of the Fellowship. Was the monster under the power of Sauron, or was his going after Frodo simply a coincidence? I love how the author leaves that a mystery--it's much creepier that way.
Geekzone has a good ideaa that it's one of the nameless things from deep within the world
@@idreamofgenie2599 or worse it has the capacity to atleast understand Frodo has something important. Might have wanted it the same way Gollum did
Probably a follower of Morgoth that we never get a full description of.
Water instead of fire cloaked balrog.
@@keegan112099 I assumed it did.
The fox is one of my favorite throwaway moments from Fellowship.
Great vid. Just a thought on Aragorn's fear of the Nazgul. Aragorn should be uniquely fearful of the Nazgul due only to the fact of who Aragorn is. He is supposed to be the King of Men. Those Nazgul were the Kings of Men. His time growing up in Rivendell would give him lots of knowledge of the Nazgul. And he would understand his unique connection to them and their fate.
They were never kings of "men" in that sense what Aragorn would become. And no the 3 Numenorean ones are also not THE Kings of Numenor, rather some noble individuals from Numenor wo were made Kings after they got the rings.
Where did the Dunedain live when they weren't Ranging? Who were the strange tree-like figures seen by Sam on the moors? How come Gandalf hadn't sussed out Saruman much earlier on? What's the cup that Galadriel needs refilling? Where is Gandalf when Frodo first sees him journeying in Galadriel's mirror, or was it even Gandalf? Who were the men of the old ways that built things like the Dunharrow and what happened to them? How come the Nazgul could ride around in the daylight but Orcs can't but the Uruk-Hai can and some Orcs that meet them from Mordor? Where are the other Palantiri? How do they work? What devil is Gandalf referring to when he uses the word 'devilry'?
We actually know exactly what Tolkien was thinking about when he wrote the line about the Last Desert and the Were Worms. In the original draft it was the Gobi Desert and the Mongolian Death Worms, a real life legend. Doesn't shed any more light on the nature of such a creature in Tolkien's works, but I do like to playfully ask where Mongolia or China are in Middle Earth get met with complete confusion as to what I'm talking about since it's such an obscure thing.
I believe the Last Desert is the Gobi. I think Tolkien mentioned this connection, probally in a letter.
The term 'Worm' may not be what you think it is. In old English it refers to a serpent or dragon. see the legend of the Lambton Worm for reference. Since Tolken was a scholar of old English and Norse mythology, this would fit in very nicely in to the theme.
@Fesh Pince Yes. Wyrm is the root of Worm and the two are interchangeable. For example, here in the UK we have a animal called a Slow Worm. This is not a large earth worm. It resembles a snake, but is in fact a legless lizard. Here worm is used to describe it as a serpent.
@Fesh Pince Or werm, wurm, Wurm, wirm, worme, wjirm, waurm, gwraint and orm.
@Fesh Pince These days usually yes. But historically that isn't always true by any means.
I'm not sure which is more terrifying a a drgon-man or a worm-man. Maybe its the D&D/pathfinder player in me speaking but when I think wereworm it makes me think of worms that walk and those things are terrifying.
In folklore misers sitting on their wealth are sometimes said to turn into dragons, which would certainly qualify as a were-worm! I think Prof Shipley mentions this kind of transformation in one of his books.
I came for the Were-worms of the Last Desert (the capitalization of the terms itself it interesting) and was not disappointed. The quote was "Tell me what you want done, and I will try it, if I have to walk from here to the East of East and fight the wild Were-worms in the Last Desert." I completely agree Tolkien wasn't thinking of the giant worms of the Hobbit movies, I still appreciate that they made something of the reference.
I would have wished for more detail on the "nameless things" that gnaw the world deep beneath Moria.
It might be that by wereworm he referred to the term of worm, in which may be serpent or also dragon.
As others stated here, the Forsaken Inn could be an abandoned, ruined building, or a point of reference (maybe a standing stone, some pack trees left after the building was gone etc). And also, being a place Aragorn mentioned to the hobbits (foreign to those places), it must be a quite special place. Maybe it's a place where rangers have a camp (permanent or temporary), to watch the Great Road.
Eriador was much more populated in the past, and now most of it lies in ruins, the population dwindling to just some patches of land, of which the biggest was The Shire. The Forsaken Inn it's just a small piece of a puzzle in a great story about the fall of civilizations the history of the Third Age is.
There is a mention of Mount Doom being in Mordor before Sauron began to rule there. “ and there was a fiery mountain in that land that the Elves named Orodruin. Indeed for that reason Sauron had set there his dwelling long before, for he used the fire that welled there from the heart of the earth in his sorceries and in his forging. “
Gothmog is a great name for a very morbid-looking cat. I've had one or two goth mogs.
Awwww. Newromantikitten doesn't flow off the tongue as well!
having just discovered you channel i have to say that your take on these ideas is very intriguing, well thought out, and wonderfully explained. my only criticism is that there are no 'visuals'... i understand it is a small channel but even just some still images related to lotr and what youre talking about would be a big plus. i still love that i found your channel, and thanks for the content... im just saying that i believe it would help to have something related to look at
As for the "Forsaken Inn", I always pictured it as being abandond and ruinous.
One detail I've wondered about is Legolas' mother. In THE HOBBIT, there is no Queen of Mirkwood. We know that Elves don't go in for casual dalliances, so Thranduil must have had a wife----what happened to her?
Obviously she had to have died.
@@spencerfrankclayton4348Perhaps. But when, why and how? If she didn't die, she decided to 'seek the havens' and go to Elvenhome, abandoning her husband and child---again, why? (We know why Elrond's wife did so, for example.)
@@brucealanwilson4121 I think she died and that it's just a mystery why. There are lots of things that are a mystery.
@@spencerfrankclayton4348 How did you know she died, rather than went West?
@@brucealanwilson4121 It just seems like it.
The mysteriousness of these things adds so much to the "how" of these stories. So many of us nerds focus on the "What" of lore, but not enough on the "how" and "why" and "what does it mean thematically"
It has always been my thought, dragons were, 'wereworms' because they spoke and had human appetites
Fafnir, the dragon from Volsunga Saga was a big source of inspiration for Tolkien's dragons.
Surely then one of the dwarfs would have said "Well you're in luck, that's exactly what we want you to do.", or even if the dwarfs didn't recognise the term, Bilbo would have used it more often if it was a common word for a dragon in his mind.
@@Jotari Unless nobody remembered the origin of the legend. My thought was that the legend initially was about dragons, but changed in the telling over many years.
I always thought that Morgoth "created" Mordor as a refuge, or outpost, because he was kinda active in the east during the first age.
According to the maps, Mordor, as well as the Sea of Rhun, was loacated where part of the Inland Sea of Helcar had been in the First Age. The destruction of Beleriand at the end of the First Age apparently caused that sea to mostly disappear, which then either revealed the mountains of Mordor, or they were created by the seismic activity..
Although I agree that it seems Aragorn had had a personal encounter, it could be as simple as Aragorn had just been told that the Nazgûl had routed and killed his rangers at Sarn Ford on September 22. His rangers had failed in their long charge of keeping The Shire safe. That was just a week prior as the hobbits meet Aragorn on September 29 so the horror of the tales that his surviving rangers told him would still be fresh.
The part of Aragorn's story that I want to learn more of is the time he spent near Mordor. We got some interesting hints of what happened. (And, please, no one reply with a link to that awful fan film that doesn't bother to follow what little details the book gives us.) Who can read, "If a man must needs walk in sight of the Black gate, or tread the deadly flowers of Morgul Vale, then perils he will have" and not want to find out more even if Aragorn said, "There is little need to tell of them." Need? No. But I *want* to know more.
There's no better place to enjoy that sweet Nazgul experience than the beautiful Morgul Vale. Plus, the Witch King genocided his people. He's really terrible.
Volcanic ash is a great fertilizer, Sauron was probably green thumb af.
In my opinion Tom is a living extension of the music of Arda's creation. I imagine he's bound to a peace loving life in the forests and not the rest of Middle Earth's little squabbles. This literal connection to music may also be why he so indiscriminately transitions into song; songs which inspire, describe and abet in preserving good within the woods he inhabits.
I like this and somewhat tied to it is that he's the embodiment of Arda itself. "If the land itself would be conquered, then Tom Bombadil would fall. The music created Arda, so it's a bit of a semantic argument of being a manifestation of the music vs manifestation of Arda
I think Tom is the peaceful version of Morgoth
The first on the planet.
Oldest an fatherless.
I'm sure there is far more to Tolkien's mythology that we don't know, and it includes more than just characters that were briefly mentioned. Almost everywhere Tolkien's characters went, they met with some unique race, species or being, and there were a LOT of areas of Middle Earth that the characters never explored in the story.
If the story didn't run through the Old Forest, would we know Tom Bombadil exists? If his characters never traveled through a mountain pass, would we have ever heard of the stone giants? We only know of the Ents because the characters went to Fangorn. We were introduced to the shapeshifter Beorn only because the party happened to pass through his territory. There are many more examples; these simply being the most obvious and memorable.
It feels like we know so much about his world, but think of all the places the characters never went, and all of the unique characters or species that we will never even know we are ignorant of.
On Gothmog the lieutenant of Morgul, it could be argued that he's one of the Nazgul, which would bring the number of personally named Ringwraiths to two; Gothmog and Khamul the Easterling.
Gothmog might have been a Wraith, possibly even a lesser Wraith and not one of the Nine.
Wasnt he a deformed orc in the movies?
@@arte0021 Yes, Gothmog was an Orc in Jackson's RotK; however, that might not have been Tolkien's intention. Also, this was a different Gothmog than the Lord of the Balrogs who lived in the First Age.
@@otaku-sempai2197
Gothmog being the leader of the orcs is indeed just a guess.
Though a plausible one.
He's Gothmog the seventh, also known as Gothmog the last
"The Voice of Sauron: My Story".
A lesser known autobiography that mostly focuses on guesses as to the author's name, without any definite conclusion.
An intriguing selection. Thank you for the video! I particularly liked the one about Mordor's past.
We also know little bout the Nameless Things, in the bowels of Silvertine, deep below Khazad-dûm. Even Sauron knew them not.
I always assumed Gothmog was another Nazgul, but there's no evidence one way or another. I certainly never pictured him as a deformed Orc
Lord of the Rings Online put forward that Gothmog was an identity taken up by Eärnur, the last king of Gondor, after he was changed into a Cargûl wraith by the Witch-King.
It's called The Forsaken Inn because Tolkien forgot to write more about it.
This is why of love the LotR and The Hobbit, it has an air of mystery about it! : )
What did the orcs/goblins of Moria eat?
Also, when I first read the Hobbit I had the impression that Rivendell was the name of an inn (the last homely house), and that Elrond was its inn keeper.
In the sense that a hippie commune is like an inn, yes.
For the first question, dwarves, humans, rats, fish, each other, basically anything you can imagine living in or wandering through the mountains
i would suggest that during the hunt for Gollum, as being a time in which Aragorn may have also possibly encountered the Nazgul. not that he would simply volunteer such information. it aggrieved him to have the knowledge or experience with them that he did, and mention of the encounter would be of little importance in regards to the search for Gollum. after all, that particular effort was more about fact finding on "Bilbo's Ring" to determine if it was the One. Sauron's minions would be of no importance, except of the personal importance to Aragorn, in that would better allow him to survive any possible future encounters. just a thought though.
I was thinking the same. After release of Gollum the Nine were sent out, I think. At that time Aragorn needed to drag Gollum to Gandalf and elves so I wouldn't put it past to him encountering Black Riders either.
Agreed. That's the only time it's possible for Aragorn to have met any of the nine. Before hand either he or the nine were in hiding/not revealed to the respective enemy.
Although I don't think Aragorn did meet any of the nine prior to meeting the hobbits in Bree. The moment where he stares into the distance and grips the arms of his chair in fear is explained by him thinking back to when it was explained to him all the details of what the nine are, how terrible they are to behold and the fact he is expected to stand against them and Sauron.
I assume Elrond told him everything he knew back when he informed Aragorn who he really is and what is expected of him. (To become man's last symbol of hope and future king)
@@Wigalot also plausible. scary thought, Elrond may well have explained it all to him, and still he could have crossed paths with them during the hunt which would make them all the more dreadful to him. it's all plausible though considering how very little we know about the period in question. after all, much of pre-LotR Aragorn's life was revealed... but there are some gaps in the 80+ years he loved up to that point, so we may never know. sadly it's all left to speculation, and head canon.
side note, Sauron is lucky Guts was not a part of Tolkien's Legendarium.
@@Jeremyhughes86 I agree its plausible but what bugs me is if the only piece of evidence he met any of the nine before Bree is him acting very sacred when talking to the hobbits then it's a bit of a stretch to conclude he had met them prior to that. 😖
“A bit scared”? His face was drawn as if in pain and he was clutching the arms of his chair. When it passed he wiped his brow. That ain’t “a bit scared.”
I always just imaged the forsaken inn to be an inn that was once prosperous but has fallen into disrepair/ was abandoned because of bandits or something. Also I always imagined Gothmog to be a black numenorian similar to the mouth of sauron
I believe that Aragorn's reaction when talking about the nazgûls at the inn is more of an authorial trick to give the reader some hint about what the "black riders" are. The first part of the book is working with clues about their identity all the way from the meeting with Gildor Inglorion who refuses to reveal it. Aragorn mentions "there are others. I know their number. I know these Riders." Then he performes this act of dismay, perhaps he is just thinking of what they are capable to do and that they now finaly are around again. I'm not sure that he actually met them earlier.
First in book 1's last chapter "Flight to the Ford" their number is revield to the reader. The narration is building up more and more about them untill Gandalf in the first chapter of book 2 tell Frodo who they realy are.
Absolutely.
But since Tolkien took considerable trouble to make his universe self - consistent it's reasonable to speculate how Aragorn acquired this personal knowledge.
its what makes fantasy the portal it is.
no simplistic whodunit or detective stories here! but rich deep tales full of mystery wonder far horizons and immanent transformations. incredible strangeness, numinous awakenings and lands of hearts desire. and many tantalizing paths not taken and fragments unexplored, that broaden and deepen the world in the minds eye.
You said what I've been trying to put to words! : )
I'm still curious at the exact number of the Northern Dunedain after the Battle of Fornost.
Like I get it both Rhudaur and Cardolan got decimated and only Arthedain remained but why did they move to the Angle?
Was their numbers too small to repopulate Fornost for example?
If you think about how volcanic areas actually form, Mordor by all rights should be a beautiful place. The mountains would help guide rainclouds into the region, and the volcanic soil would be perfect for plant life and growth. I get the impression that it's only a wasteland because of Sauron's heavy industrial emphasis, destroying the land just as Saruman destroyed Isengard.
Sorta, not so much when there is regular volcanic activity, but as part of a combination of things I agree with manufactured desolation, especially the valley floor.
When Aragorn was hunting for Gollum he went into Morgul Vale, and perhaps he encountered the Nazgul there.
This needs a part 2!
Forsaken literally means abandoned or deserted, so I'd take it to mean an Inn that was abandoned some time between the Hobbit and the Fellowship of the Ring as the Hobbit mentions there were several inns on the road to rivendell.
Well the phrase is italicized, implying that’s it’s given name.
@@TolkienLorePodcast that's a good point, would that rule out it being a name given to the place by the Rangers?
Not necessarily, but it seems unlikely. If the Rangers gave it a name I can’t imagine it would be italicized.
The Spanish translation refers to it with the "abandoned" meaning.
@@enriqueparodiYT1
That is indeed what it means.
It does seem quite likely that The Rangers used the derelict Inn as a camp.
This might be too down in the weeds, but I would have loved to have known more about the kings of Gondor, and Gondor's history during the three millennia between Isildurs death and the events of LOTR. I know that Tolkien wrote a bit about it in the appendices and in the Silmarillion, but it's really only the barest of summaries. I'm actually currently writing my own fanfiction account on the subject called "the Shaping of Gondor."
Nice video... a few comments.
I always took the 'forsaken inn' to mean that it had been abandoned; I pictured something similar to the abandoned farmer's house in The Hobbit movie. A broken down, forsaken building from a happier time....
Perhaps Aragorn encountered the Nazgul during his travels with Gollum in the years before meeting Frodo.... I believe he found him somewhere near Mordor after he had been captured, tortured, and released by Sauron, and eventually left him with Thranduil's elves in Mirkwood. This would put him east of the river and in close proximity to Mordor and Minas Morghul, both likely spots to encounter a Nazgul.
There's a line in The Silmarillion that mentions the Numenoreans bringing corn (a generic term meaning grain; not maize) and iron to the men of middle earth, and teaching them to till the earth... implying that they had degraded back to a neolithic, pre-agricultural lifestyle. In the stub of the story Tal Almar (sp?) that you mention, the town leader mentions 'knappers', which are craftsmen who chip (knapp) flint to make stone arrowheads. I think this supports men in the 2nd Age living literal stone-age lives.
Did you mention the Cats of Queen Beruthiel? Aragorn makes an offhand comment about them on the road to Rivendell, and they are acknowledged (along with Bombadil) as being a full mystery with no prior references in any of Tolkien's earlier works. Note that originally Sauron was called (I believe) Tevildo, and would transform into a giant cat....
'Worm' (or Wyrm) is another term for dragon, so I figured 'wereworm' was yet another word for dragons.
Another one.... at the beginning of The Hobbit, there is a talking fox who comments on how unusual it is to see a hobbit so far from the comforts of home. It is one of very few talking animals in any of Tolkien's works (others being Huan the Hound of Valinor, and Eorl the Young's Horse, Felaroth). It's usually explained away as simply being an artifact of The Hobbit being originally a children's bedtime story. I took this as the likely explanation for the 'stone giants'..... it was just a child's description of thunder in the mountains.
The Forsaken Inn is in italics and capitalized, so presumably that’s its proper name, and it would be weird if it was given a new name after it was no longer in use. As to the cats of Beruthiel, Tolkien actually does give out a bit of info on them somewhere, though I don’t recall off hand the specific source.
@@TolkienLorePodcast Since I got the audiobook versions, I haven't actually *read* LOTR in a couple of decades, so some details like this have faded..... thanks!
Have you done anything about the Westron language, and the 'true' hobbit names? E.g., "Frodo" is actually named "Maura", "Sam" was "Ban" (and the gaffer was "Ran"), "Pippin" was "Razar", and "Merry" was "Kali". Also, the actual word for "hobbit" was "Kuduk".....
Sm
The conjecture of a casual fan of LOTR and a complete outsider to most geeky in-group knowledge, and who is also hearing about most of this for the first time:
“The forsaken inn”: sounds like some sort of infamous haunted place. Perhaps it’s something like the barrow downs.
“The memory was evil.” In the grammar of storytelling you connect what’s unclear to what already has been clearly established. (This is also a well-known hermeneutical rule when academics study nonfiction but my post is gonna be too long as it is.) The one specific action we actually do know about Aragorn and Gandalf performing together previously (here I’m expecting to be corrected by a less casual fan, but it’s all that springs to mind for me) is tracking Gollum. I suppose they ran into goblins or something while searching in there or going in there to find a possible lead or to take a shortcut or who knows what. (He did live in a cave mainly inhabited by goblins before, after all.) The line is meant to give you a sense of these two having gone through quite a lot to nab the little baby-eater.
Has Aragon ever encountered the Ringwraiths before when they haven’t been active in-eighty-seven years, you say? He may be remembering the black breath (I think that’s what it’s called? You know, the Dementor-like emotional effect-man did Rowling ever rip that off-that all beings like them cause) coming from something else, or he has experience with actual wraiths or the undead and figures they’re probably all alike.
Gothmog I can’t do much with: indeed I don’t really know who you’re talking about. But from how you make it sound? Probably he’s just some higher-up who arbitrarily named himself after a famous figure on his side for the sake of tradition or boasting or-I don’t know, fanboyism?
Perhaps the reason Forgot-My-Name got the role of Sauron’s mouth is that while the nine Ringwraiths had to be slow-burn mind-controlled (or something) through their rings or else they might not be as loyal (we don’t know), he is a sincere fanatic of his own accord with just as much clout as a soldier and sorcerer. Think Bellatrix to his Voldemort (only minus the offscreen sex-I think and hope).
“Worm” has an old-timey alternate definition of “dragon” (and you know Tolkien loves him some old-timey word usage). The “were-“ prefix is what’s confusing. Perhaps there was a person or creature that could shapeshift into one?
In the fellowship of the ring Elrond says tom bombadil is known as beorn by the men in the west is there a connection with beorn
Elrond doesn’t say he’s known as Beorn. “Iarwain Ben-adar we called him, oldest and fatherless. But many another name he has since been given by other folk: Forn by the Dwarves, Orald by Northern Men, and other names beside. He is a strange creature, but maybe I should have summoned him to our Council.”
@@TolkienLorePodcast ok thanks for clearing that up miss heard it loving the audio books on our audiobook playlist makes me want to read the books again and the new 3 books and older lesser known enjoying your podcast too
I would interpret the "forsaken" in "The Forsaken Inn" as "abandonded".
It was the last Inn on the road back when the road carried enough traffic to support an inn a days ride from Bree, now it is abandoned ruin, but still standing as a landmark for travellers.
Also we know little about the Cats of Queen Berúthiel.
The Blue Wizards is another good one!
Well, Tolkien did end up writing some stuff on them. He changed the story a bit over time though, as he so often did.
@@TolkienLorePodcast That is true.
Re the "Last Desert": I've wondered if this is a reference to the eastern continent that may be beyond Middle Earth. IIRC, some of Tolkien's early diagrams of the world of Middle Earth show Aman (the land of the gods in the west), Middle Earth, and a largely unlabelled third continent in the east. I'm not aware of Tolkien ever actually explicitly saying anything about this eastern continent but I think it is implied to be largely desert. For instance, I think it gets referred to somewhere as 'the Lands of the Sun'. Also, as Middle Earth is named after the Norse Midgard, the world of humans, it might make sense that if the western continent of Aman is Asgard/Heaven, the eastern continent is in some way Muspelheim/the land of fire/Hell.
This is all pretty vague. The diagrams showing the eastern continent are from pretty early on and I've no idea if Tolkien still pictured the world that way by the time he was writing The Hobbit. They're also meant to show the lay-out of the world during the First Age and there's no indication AFAIK if anything happened to the eastern continent as a result of the shape of the world changing at the end of the Second Age. Also, if the Last Desert is the eastern continent, how would Bilbo have ever heard of it? We're told that the Numenoreans traveled pretty much everywhere in the world before the fall of Numenor, so it might be that the idea has been passed down as folklore since then.
Well speaking to the choire but what makes mr T:s work so immersive is the deep world-building together with the allusions to things not fully explained an mysterious.
I've posted about this before, but it is just not plausible that nobody would ever have measured the main East-West Road from the Grey Havens to Imladris. In the Third Age, and for the latter part of the Second Age, it was one of the main thoroughfares of Arnor, and it was the main route from Lindon and the Havens to and from Imladris, as well as running on to become the main thoroughfare to the realms of Thranduil, Esgaroth, Dale and Erebor. The distance of such a road would be extremely valuable information for all the cultures that used it for transport and communication, and the Eldar and Dunedain would have had little technical difficulty in accurately measuring it. Its length, once measured, would not have been forgotten in Imladris, and it would have been very useful information for the Rangers of Eriador, up to and including Aragorn, to know.
Tolkein was great with details, but not perfect, especially with distances. In contrast, btw, another noteworthy writer, Stehen King, absolutely sucks with distances.
Tolkein is much better with tracking time, moon phases (very rare in novelists) and a great many other things, so I just mostly overlook his fuzzy distances.
"The Life and Times of Aragorn" would make a fantastic setting for a lengthy series of books or movies. How long is the intellectual copyright for LOTR?
Wyrm in old English is dragon. The forsaken inn is the last piece of the old town/village in the shadow of weather top. A crucial, pivotal place for the realm of Arnor first, then Rhuddaur & Cardolan by their north/south border. The watch tower at weathertop once contained the master seeing stone, Palantir, larger & more powerful than the rest.
Both Aragorn and Gandalf entered Moria from the east and were separate times.
7:23 My sisters and I call movie Gothmog "General Spongecake," because his skin looks so spongy.
Hi :-) I've got a question regarding Sauron's biography that seems quite open to me. Do you think he continued to serve Morgoth after being defeated by Lúthien and Huan or did he live as a reclusive renegade until the war of wrath was over?
I imagine he continued to serve him. It seems at least slightly implied by the fact that he’s still around and asking for mercy after the War of Wrath.
@@TolkienLorePodcast Thanks. It's funny that you interpret this bid for mercy other than I sometimes do. I figured he could have made a case to Eonwe à la "well, I reached an agreement with an Elven princess, and haven't actively supported Morgoth for 80 years, so don't count me as an enemy".
The question is, was Sauron the only servant of Morgoth to surrender or was he the only one who was even offered this option? I surmise the Valar wanted at least all the Balrogs and Dragons killed by default, but that is just speculation.
What ever happened to the entwives?
Tolkien said himself he didn't know.
Fun video! - I have a theory about Aragorn's earlier encounter with the Nazgul - I think he must have had some sort of mission to Minus Morgul. They were based there as they awaited Sauron's return to strength.
How about the dwarves? We don't get to know more about the other 6 dwarven lines. Also it is a bit mystical the hobbits real origin. One thing that always comes to my mind is about radagast and whether he helped at all in the end
It was he who sent the eagle that rescued Gandalf from Isengard.
So yeah, he was useful.
Is that a Dart Board case(prancing pony) if so where did you get it?
It is. It was a gift but I’m pretty sure it was from the Noble Collection.
I think that a video about things we know but the characters don't would also be an interesting idea, either about lore stuff or things like that Gandalf is a Maia witch most people don't know
Your thumbnail for this video: I👏 Am👏 Dead👏
That's so meta the ultimate in reliable narrators informs us the mouth of Sauron forgets his own name. Maybe a thematic recurrence that evil corrupts you so entirely to the extent you lose your own identity
I believe while looking into more about treebeard it explained exactly what mordor used to be. The forest of fanghorn used to span across all of middle earth. If I read correctly it explained that mordor used to be the garden of the entwives
The entwives are former residents of the now "brown lands"
wereworms might also refer to humans or human like creatures that had 'worm-like' lifestyles, maybe goblins that dug underground or even misunderstood ideas about the dwarves
Maybe Aragorn encountered the Nazgul while down south or east, where they could have been more active, drawing forces to Sauron's side.
It's a shame about the Forsaken Inn. The place used to be cool before they put in karaoke.
And then they started serving fruity mixed drinks. Went downhill fast.
Perhaps the wereworms were in arrakis.
id like to know more about Goldberry
Wouldn’t we all!
The Watchers at the gate of Minas Morgul.
People found a large desert in the east, saw the wereworms and decided there wasn't anything important on the otherside, thus the name 'last desert'. :D
There was a fox, in the beginning of TFOTR who we get told what it is thinking when he sees the hobbits leaving The Shire. I always felt that was random and out of place, personally.
I must think that's just the narrator driving home the unique nature of the hobbit's errand.
@@NobleBruv I think it's remnant of the Hobbit, starting lotr as a children's book before making it more serious...
In world I see Bilbo's writing there, vs Frodo's more serious writing later on.
@@jawstrock2215
Pretty sure you're right.
Though I'd be sorry to lose Mr Random Fox from the narrative.
Frodo and Gondor could observe that all who join Sauron become thralls. You don't need to know someone's name to see they probably forgot themselves under thrall.
A man who forgets his own name shows dedication not thinking of himself in Total Service of something else
I have always wondered where Dorwin, or the place of origin of the dorwinion wine the elves drank in the Hobbit.
Where did the spider-like creatures that lived in Nan Dungortheb before Ungoliant came to live there and vreed with them cine from?
The Nameless Things under Moria.
Alot of aragons encounters confirm searching for gollum I believe
Queen Beruthiel and her cats, was the one I thought you would mention, I agree with Toxic Tony, worm might mean dragon (I think probably) and so wereworm means some kind of Dragonmen some corrupted being of Morgoth or Sauron?
There actually is some info on the cats buried deep if you know where to look for it. ;)
@@TolkienLorePodcast apparently she was a Numenorian from Umbar who married into the Gondorian royal line probably in an attempt to cement an alliance with Umbar. Unfortunately it did not appear to turn out well!
The Watcher in the Water. First time I read LotR, I thought that the Watcher and the Balrog were the same thing, because Gandalf later described the Balrog as slimy and strangling when not on fire. Also the Hobbit: Hobgoblins. Side note: were-worm would have been a man-snake I guess, because "worm" in old English and Norse almost always means snake.
Maybe the Forsaken Inn is an Inn that simply forsaken? Aka abandonned? Not in use? Empty building? Y'know, like that
What new things do you think we’ll learn about Middle Earth in the upcoming “Nature of Middle Earth”?
From what I’ve heard it will go a bit more into the different races, among other things. Personally I just can’t wait to get it regardless!
Thanks for mentioning this! I had not yet taken notice of it. Something to be looking forward to!
@@TolkienLorePodcast Yes, sir. I preordered it from Amazon the day it went it up!! God Bless and Merry Christmas (Happy Holidays if you're Jewish or other religion) to you and your family ;-).
Is that a book?
@@spencerfrankclayton4348 Yes it will be released next year (can be ordered from Amazon or major retailers).
Maybe wereworms are a hybrid of human and giant sandworm. Maybe one was called as Leto II Atreides, the God Emperor.
Lol.
It would seem to be a variant of werewolf, denoting a human who becomes a dragon (like Fafnir in The Volsunga Saga who became a dragon to punish him for kinslaying).
I always thought the Forsaken Inn was merely isolated, not creepy or dangerous. I see it as a solitary welcoming place in an otherwise dangerous wilderness.
I agree, that's what I always thought also.
more mysteries:
Beorn the skin changer from the Hobbit.
Queen Beruthiel.
Wood Woses.
Origins of Trolls.
The Mountain Giants that throw stones.
Vampires (in the tale of Beren and Luthien).
Were Wolves (The tale of Beren and Luthien).
The origin and fate of Ungoliant; also how she was able to almost kill Melkor-Morgoth, but not the Balrogs.
The fate of the Avari (the novel only stated that the Noldor (the Elves in the story) and the Sylvan Elves (Legolas' people) took the straight road to Aman.
The fate of the Dwarfs.
The fate of Sauron and Saruman (as they are Maiar they cannot die).
The Haradrim and the Easterlings.
The Black Númenóreans
The Barrow Wights
To name a few, lol.
There's always more.
Were-worms -- I see these as being more like the archaic meaning of 'worm' -- for a dragon or wyvern type creature. But a 'man-dragon'? It brings to mind Ursula K Le Guin's "Earthsea" books where there literally were humans who could turn into dragons (in the lore of that world, humans and dragons were once all the same and split off into separate lineages, but some humans still retained their dragon-nature).