There is also a reference to "lesser rings" that were "plain and unadorned." The elves were experimenting with these before the creation of the great rings. The one ring was made to look like one of these lesser rings.
At the ring’s powers are very nuanced; for “lesser” users such as bilbo it only makes him invisible (as well as the obvious pull towards returning the ring to Sauron). We aren’t told explicitly what most of the other rings do but on face level turning invisible seems more like a lesser ring power. Not the one ring to rule them all. After all to gandalf if all the elven rings are explicitly more powerful than just turning invisible than its an easy mistake to make
It reminds me of that scene in Indiana Jones where he has to pick out the correct Holy Grail, and it ends up being the one that looks completely mundane and nowhere near as decorative or spectacular as any of the others in the room.
Be careful, the channel owner will delete your comments if you disagree with him. He's an insecure man-child who pretends to know Tolkien lore for clicks and views. He needs to get a real job.
A Character making a bad choice, and explaining why they made the bad choice, is never a plot hole. A character choice being suboptimal is characterisation UNLESS it completely contradicts a specific known trait. Gandalf not being all knowing is an important piece of characterisation for the story.
"If only Gandalf were here then everything would be alright!" or something close to it is uttered several times throughout the books, but Gandalf is shown to make several mistakes throughout the stories that the character fully admits. The greatest among us make mistakes but keep going the same as the least among us who carry on and win the day.
@@yondie491well is can be IF something in the resolution of the story (or key characterisations) relies on it. It is a gap in the plot. But not all holes are created equally. It is only a hole in the bad sense if something we need for the story to work is missing, or we have a contradiction of a previously established point. But then plot hole feels like the wrong term even though it is used that way
I always thought it was implied the ring had a kind of intelligence as well. When it ended up with Bilbo, and was stuck in the Shire it became fairly dormant power-wise because it had no immediate way of getting back to Sauron (Gandalf I think even says, 'The ring wants to be found.') Then when Boromir appears it starts to work on him almost immediately, as he is travelling back to Gondor and is the most likely to get the ring closest to Sauron, and it's power becomes more obvious. The other members of the Fellowship aren't beholden to travel all the way to Mordor, and Boromir as a powerful warrior has more chance of making it than Frodo. So I was thinking it wasn't apparent to Gandalf all that time when it was with Bilbo, because it was hiding it's power from him as it waited for a likely candidate to take it south.
The ring is the essence of Sauron, and an extension of his will. They are one in the same. The ring doesn’t have its own intelligence (since Sauron cannot grant intelligence unique from his own, only Eru can do that), it acts in Sauron’s will because it is Sauron. This almost sounds like a contradiction, in that he really ought to have been able to find it if it were part of him, but it is not part of him physically, rather theologically. They exist as separate manifestations of one another, not as connected objects.
It started working on Boromir from the moment he saw it at the Council of Elrond, but he was in denial until Galadriel tested his heart when they first arrived in Lorien. Boromir had the least resistance to its influence because of his personality and because of his need to protect Gondor. He never really listened to the people who kept saying that the Ring should never be used. Not, that is, until it was too late. OTOH, you are correct about the Ring's power growing as it gets closer to where it was forged. I'm just saying that even in Rivendell, Boromir was being influenced.
the whole irony of the rings is saurons making of them is dependent on his evil mind thinking the recipients want the same as he does total domination.it works with the nine rings as man does appear to be the weakest willed species on middle earth ,boromir denethor theoden isildur ,for example less well with the dwarves excepting the dwarf rings influence lead to greed and self destruction in moria awaking the balrog.also he makes a basic error in dol guldor not allowing thrains ring to pass to thorin.even without it the influence it had on thorin being owned by his father and grandfather greatly magnifies his greed over smaugs horde already rampant.had he had the ring sauron would have won the war .his obsessive greed would have destroyed any chance of an alliance with elves men dwarves and eagles.hed have continued to fight elves and men despite the oncoming orc army erebor would have fallen leaving the hordes from the misty mountains free to attack rohan and gondor from the north whilst he attacked from the south with the corsairs haradrim and orcs from mordor.his big failure was the three who carried the one ring after isildur.unable to believe anyone could relinquish it let alone destroy it his big fear is whoever has it will use it as a weapon.however the three hobbits or four if you include sam have no such ambitions they dont think like that.gollum falls in love with the ring itself but his mind is too small and bitter to use it other than a way to kill goblins for food.yet like bilbo and frodo the ring has less effect physically on him than others though he has it for centuries.the ring itself bides its time until escape beckons with bilbo.then to its horror he doesnt use it or take it to its master but hides it.he then does the impossible he relinqishes it to frodo.however its marked that the ring has far more effect on him in the 80 years he has it then when frodo owns it and uses it far less than bilbo and gollum the rings evil influence is accelerated as if being out in the world speeds up its yearning for its master.it definately sees boromir as the weak link and hopes to use him to return home.eventually both it and sauron are thwarted by the simple truth that no other species on earth would try to destroy it willingly.sauron doesnt post guards on mount doom because thre is no need whoever has it would according to his thinking declare themselves long before and the ring would be his.
Even in The Hobbit, it's said: But who knows how Gollum came by that present, ages ago in the old days when such rings were still at large in the world?... Alluding to the fact that rings of invisibility were more common back then.
Definetly. And in my head cannon the ring's power manifests as a reflection of the person that wears it. In Frodo and Bilbo, common and unambitious people, it manifests as invisibility ring. It isnt more powerful than one of the first elven experiments with ringmaking. I wish it had manifested a bit different in Isildur, as that would have made me more certain of this. But maybe it's only like this with mortals, extending their lifespan and shielding them from harm by making them invisible.
I like to think that Gandalf knowing Gollum was a hobbit, it was the fact he looked about 300 or whatever he was - there might have been other invisibility rings but keeping u alive all that time was much more interesting else altogether.
So in a nutshell: many rings exist and this one wasn’t that conspicuous to start with, and, Saruman misled Gandalf by claiming the One Ring was lost forever.
Pretty much, though I would argue that other than the rings of power... we see little to no magical items in the books/movie. Which really diminishes the idea these lesser magical rings are just "around" enough to dismiss. I am fairly sure this was plot hole that clever fans could cover up but the original author probably over looked. I mean Tolkien wrote a massively detailed world, some mistakes bound to happen.
@@JustaGuy_Gaming i think it's more that they *used* to be all over the place. But that particular culture was destroyed, and so the rings were lost to history save for the great rings that were powerful enough to keep finding bearers.
@@JustaGuy_Gaming you’re forgetting the Palantirs and the magic of kings, elves and wizards. We see all of that. Plus all the relic architecture of the past.
@@susanappleby2414 Some people have magical effects, but magical items are very rare. Honestly it seems like other than things Elves still make the most common thing to be lying around is magical weapons. Still my over all point was Bilbo's Ring had a pretty amazing magical effect to just be ignored, even if it was considered a lesser ring. Unlimited invisibility and a seeming ability to lengthen the users life span even when not worn is pretty impressive. Also from what we know magical rings with no gems or decoration is pretty rare even in lesser rings.
There's also the fact that ring lore wasn't exactly common knowledge, and even among the savvy, it wasn't at the top of anyone's mind. The rings of power were mostly forgotten among men, the dwarves never really cared about them, the Elves intentionally didn't speak about them to avoid drawing attention, and Sauron wasn't exactly advertising that he's still alive and plotting his revenge and needs his ring to attain his full power again. Upon seeing a magic ring, nobody's first thought is going to be "ah yes, Sauron's missing ring of power," not even Gandalf.
Ya this video was kinda stupid and just seems like some weird thought he came up with just so he could have a click baity title. There is definitely no plot hole here and even if it's not spelt out in the books, it's pretty obvious why he didn't just know what it was instantly 🙄
I mean when the whole thing is about finding the one ring that can f everything up and gandalf's whole job is to prevent sauron coming back by it .... i mean he had decades to just ask bilbo to hand him it so he could look at his ring. Pretty sure it would've been obvious considering bilbo would have tweaked about losing it showing corruption or gandalf would immediately sense it's power upon touching it. Either way the guy was too busy smoking bud with the hobbits and blowing magic smoke rings to tie the one loose end from The Hobbit which just so happened to be the one thing everyone was looking for. That being said i love the books/movies/everything but have always felt like gandalf 100% dropped the ball with this one. Just somehow didn't do any due diligence with it and instead went off for 20 years to research about it. So important enough to study 20 years but not ask to look at it once .......
Gandalf is not entirely beyond the magic of Saruman's speech. So even if the explanation he was given was less than perfect, his judgment might well have been clouded by the soothing voice of the white wizard. Especially while he still trusted him.
@@mrnobody6447 Saruman: "Your love for the Halflings' leaf has clearly slowed your mind." Doesnt need to magically influence gandalf when he was high all the time. Especially when visiting his country friends XD.
Concur, nor the other members of the WC. Saruman stating that the ring rolled down the Anduin to the sea or whatever would have had a strong lingering effect even when Saruman was not present.
I think what gets that argument going is that our focus is on the ring because we know the story. Gandalf had a lot going on when he arrived in middle earth, finding the ring was something saruman was more concerned with. Gandalf wouldn’t have thought that the ring would simply fall into his lap as it did. Remember also there were many magic rings in middle earth also.
Best answer, plus the ring has shown itself able to shrink, possibly give off an "be unassuming." (Someone-Elses-Problem Field) similar to its effect on the wearer. Also has been shown able attract those it wants to attract & even somewhat "think". We can speculate that the ring wanted to stay low-key, but close enough to civilization. Which is partly why it left Gollum. Thus it could make a move into Sauron's hands via the agency of the Ring Wraiths which the ring would "recognize". Plus Gandalf never touches or even closely examines the ring till TLoR Fellowship of The Ring when its on the floor. It doesn't have the Mordor Script on it either, it faded, presumably from lack of anyone really USING its power. Until after fire is applied... Those who think this general topic is a plot hole, haven't put any thought into it as there are many pointers and you only need a few to realize how easy it would be to miss when your mission focus is elsewhere.
Gandalf explains what happened clearly enough during The Council of Elrond. Saruman was the recognised master of ringlore and he said that The Ring had been carried down Anduin to The Sea. Gandalf only began to doubt him after Bilbo's Party. And was sometime after that that he visited Minas Tirith and found Isildur's description of the Ring Inscription.
TheLibran1 Yes, if it doesn’t want to be found. I love the intent of the Ring. Any time I start to underestimate it as an actual character I quickly realize my mistake. 😅
@@alanpennie8013 I think that Gandalf had doubts for a while, but he also had no reason to doubt Saruman's history of the One Ring. I think that Gandalf making Bilbo leave the ring was both for Bilbo's own good as well as being a test to see if it might be more than some random lesser ring. After Bilbo's Party he knew it was just some lesser ring, and went off to find out what it really was.
aye, Gandalf's responsibility was raising up the people of middle earth with united and inspired peoples to combat great evils , like he once inspired elves & men with dreams as a maia , a colossal task that was never completely accomplished till after the war of the ring
The ring has been lost for 2.500 years prior to gollum finding it and keeping it for another 500 years or so. Then it passed to Bilbo, it even says in the books that Gandalf seldom came into the Shire, and you have to also consider the fact that Gandalf was busy with other stuff as well and the ones looking after the shire were the Rangers, including Aragorn. There is also a huge time gap in the books from when Bilbo leaves the Shire and passes the ring to Frodo and the time that Gandalf comes back to the shire to enquire about the ring , arround 30 years or more I think. I don't see a plot hole, just nitpicking.
Yep, that always stuck out to me when I read the books that Gandalf didn't come back to the shire for decades after leaving Frodo. He spent all those years researching to make sure it was the one ring.
@@yondie491 Only the oldest being on the planet (Treebeard) could call Gandalf "young". Though if we're just referring to the spirit of Gandalf, he's wicked old. Older than the elves and only slightly younger than the Valar.
This explanation also underscores what a careful strategist was Gandalf. The wizard was ALSO an investigator of the first order. Him knowing that guessing wrong could at the least waste time on a fruitless endeavor. The plodding nature of Gandalf's inquiry makes him not naive, as might be assumed by the reader, but a dogged detective willing to act only after making a solid conclusion.
But why would it take him so much time to start investigating? Invisibility is not a common power in Tokien's world, the Ring is the only one that grants it in the entire series, so he shouldn't have assumed that it's just a minor trinket of the elves. Besides, just like he says, ALL magical rings are dangerous in the hands of mortals, so why would he leave it in Bilbo's hands without at least investigating if it's safe first? Gandalf cares for Bilbo's well-being, it's not in character for him to ignore such a potent threat to his safety so easily
@@exantiuse497 but we don't know that invisibility is unusual. Magic rings are unusual in themselves, but so are the Elven swords that they take from the Troll's horde. In the events of the Hobbit they are traveling through the lands that once housed the culture that created the magic rings and the magic swords. Perhaps invisibility was a common side effect of the lesser rings. Furthermore very little is known about the one ring. Although Gandalf and Saruman came to Middle Earth to help free it of Sauron's baleful influence, they were instructed not to fight power with power. They came as advisors, stewards. Therefore beyond a certain point it was not their proper place to study the ringcraft in detail and, as the story does show, even that study proves deeply dangerous to Saruman. Therefore who knew the one ring made mortals invisible? Only Isildur and later Saruman who did not share all he knew with others of the White Council. Gandalf, therefore, may have had no particular reason to be suspicious of a ring of invisibility except in general terms of mistrusting the ringcraft that had led to so much harm in Middle Earth.
@@alexmckee4683 Let's think about the invisibility thing logically: invisibility is an extremely powerful and useful thing. Any thief or other criminal would kill for such an ability, a warrior would benefit from it greatly, and a king or noble would want it for security against assassins etc. If such a powerful and coveted ability was so easy to make that even the weak "practice" rings had it as a side effect, surely it would be commonplace, if not in the Third Age, then at least in the First or Second age when powerful artisans and smiths were still around. Even if it only affected mortals, there were plenty of great human heroes who would've wanted the ability to turn invisible. How beneficial would it have been for e.g. Turin to use an invisibility ring when fighting the dragon, or Beren to use one when sneaking around in Angband, or for Elessar and his kin to use that power in the war against Sauron? Surely the elves would give their allies magic rings of invisibility if they were so easy to make? Yet there is no mention of anyone but Maiar or other supernatural beings using invisibility, no mortal ever goes invisible in any of the tales, except by using the One Ring. Yes, it's possible that there were hundreds of magical rings that granted invisibility, flying etc extraordinary abilities that people just didn't use for some reason, but I think it requires jumping through too many logical hoops to be believable
@@exantiuse497 you have focused on one aspect, the invisibility. I agree that it is unlikely to be common (in itself), and I wasn't suggesting that it was (bear in mind that even the lesser rings are very rare), just pointing out that the text doesn't say that it is or isn't, and that strange and wonderful powers are claimed of other artifacts from the same provenance. You cannot therefore infer that it should have been obvious to Gandalf that the ring was the One Ring. You assert again that only the One Ring was known to have this effect, but I remind you that only Isildur knew that the One Ring granted invisibility. Saruman would have read any account that Isildur left while researching the ring, but the text does show that even from early times Saruman had misled the other members of the White Council on matters pertaining to the ring. Therefore at the beginning of the FoTR perhaps only two living beings knew that the One Ring had this power, Sauron and Saruman.
Gandalf only finds out how to test the ring by putting it in a fire after he visits Minas Tirith and reads about it in documents. Specifically he reads the story that was written first-hand about how Isildur cut the ring off sauron's hand. It was only then that he had a way to test the ring. I think by that time he had no doubt in his mind as to what Frodo's ring really was
I think part of it is also a flaw of hope. That it had been 2500 years since the last war. That the object that caused the death and destruction by sauron had been found in the shire. A place that Gandalf has admitted holds dear. By holding off on the investigation he could have hope that it would always be safe. And it took several years before that "What if it isn't" couldn't be ignored anymore. Wanting to believe something that you are willing to overlook evidence against is a flaw of hope
lately i have been getting very deep into the LOTR lore through some really great youtube channels (in deep geek, nerd of the rings, men of the west, history of ages), so i was very happy to find your channel today. and now i will spend a copious amount of time delving into your videos. this is my first one and i really like you style and knowledge. thanks man!
Even as someone who just watched the movies, I assumed that there were dozens of magic rings out in the world and that's why Gandalf never bat an eye about Bilbo's ring until it was obvious.
I never realized that Bilbo's merciful way of taking the Ring was a big reason his lack of corruption. And I guess the same goes for Frodo - he inherited it, he didn't take it. Hobbits really are remarkable creatures. Great insight!
The rings were made for their intended victims of each Race. Sauron never even considered what a Hobbit would want to corrupt them. So when a ring fell into Smeagles hands it took hundreds of years to corrupt him. It was doing everything it could but all Smeagle desired was to be left alone and fish. So he ended up in a dark cave eating raw fish for hundreds of years before Bilbo found him. I guarantee the Ring was like oh no not another fucking Hobbit. Can a human, dwarf, elf, hell a Troll find me?
Additionally, the ring could never truly corrupt Sam because he only had two true desires: Keeping his best friend Frodo safe, and marrying Rosie Cotton. At best, all the ring could do to Sam was make him jealous of those seeking Rosie’s attention, but that wouldn’t be until later down the line when that could come into play.
@@howardbaxter2514 now that you mention it.. Sam does go West after Rosie dies before him. So Tolkien might have been saying Sam saw his children grow up, and his wife pass and was covetous... And he decided yep I was a ring bearer and I am growing covetous time for me to do what Frodo and Gandalf did. I like to headcanon imagine Sam arrived on Frodo's 111th birthday.
I read that as the ring corrupting ambition and the way Smeagol took it, the way others (Boromir) were quickly tempted, was by that ambition. They wanted the ring, as opposed to Bilbo and Frodo who merely obtained the ring and had no ambition at all with regards to it. Not necessarily mercy weakening its power so much as the attitude that kept it from getting its hooks in was also one that would encourage mercy. This is also reflected with Isildur who in the books took the ring as weregild, basically payment for the death of his father and brother at Sauron's hands, rather than immediately wanting to use it for power. He did try to master the ring while spending a year or two taking care of his kingdom after the war and preparing it for his absence (he had to go up to Arnor which his father had ruled, take care of that kingdom as well) and I think it was his mind being focused on protection and healing while he did so that helped protect him. Eventually he realizes he cannot master it and it will begin to influence him, so he's taking it to Rivendell when the ambush happens.
True, the only sign that the ring is The One is when Bilbo has a hard time letting it go. I mean he's leaving his home, a house that he's been fighting to keep from his cousins and leave everything behind to go to Rivendel, yet this ring which he found on his travels not only was in his pocket all along and visibly made him question leaving it behind, but also made him extremely angry at someone he considered a good friend.
I have only recently found your channel and I've gotta say its great. You seem very knowledgeable about Tolkiens universe so you can cover each topic in depth and give us a perspective that is very close to how Tolkien viewed his creations. Thank you for that.
To reiterate some of the things you said in the video and to add to them, it is explained early on in the book that the one ring is made to look like a lesser ring, and one crucial thing that a lot of people seem to forget is that saruman didn't just lie to the white council about the one ring being completely lost forever, but he used the magic of his voice to convince them that it was lost forever and put them at ease. It's what he does. Gandalf explains in the second book that even the wise and himself are susceptible to his power, and only after knowing of his treachery is saruman's power useless on certain people. When they meet up with saruman after his defeat, gandalf isn't swayed by his lies, and to mention a lesser person, Eomer isn't fooled either. To add to this, even when gandalf was worried about Bilbo's ring being something more evil, he wasn't fully knowledgeable of the lore of the rings of power, as this was sarumans domai, and his recollection of saruman's words about the One Ring being lost still have an effect on him. Gandalf then is uneasy about consulting saruman about the ring, because he is basically starting to get bad vibes off of him for some time now and his intuition tells gandalf not to reveal the ring to saruman. On top of this, gandalf is constantly roaming around the world back and forth because he has other important errands that he needs to take care of, and him being immortal, it is easier for him to let years pass by, because in a way he has all the time in the world.
"When did you know this is the One Ring?" "A few moments ago, of course, in this very room. After we heated it the inscription became visible. That matched with the description by Isildur, I read in Minas Tirith. And I can read what it means, in the language of Mordor. This is the One Ruling ring, not one of the lesser ones I don't know of. These Rings of Power extend the lives of mortals. But the One can be very treacherous and can even turn them into wraiths, for it was made by Sauron and holds much of his malice. "
I always did find it interesting that Elrond mentions that it was forbidden to discuss the three... but after having worn the One himself... Frodo becomes fully capable of seeing, fully perceiving the three, even when they would be otherwise concealed, as he did with Galadriel's ring.
So again, Sauron's zeal and greed for the ring, and the pursuit by the Nazguls specifically, is what gives away that it is the One ring to Gandalf and the council. I love how that theme carries through the whole story so perfectly.
@@SteffonDudley You have a toothbrush. HITLER had a tooth brush. Well that's enough evidence for me! I'm surely convinced enough to spend over a decade searching for some pretty scattered and mostly lost Hitler Toothbrush lore. Mm-hmm.
@@ABurntMuffin Hitler is confirmed to still be alive and has set up a fortress. His toothbrush is a WMD and he's looking for it. Might be worth taking a look into what his toothbrush looks like at some point when passing through the locations that might have toothbrush lore over that 75 year period even if you don't know someone with a very strange toothbrush. The knowledge might be handy if Hitler invades Poland. Or something.
@@SteffonDudley did you not realize that was my point? oh, so hitler had a toothbrush.... YOU have a toothbrush... let me put a decades worth of work into investigating your toothbrush bcuz hitler.... its retarded because everyone has a toothbrush. At that point investigate everyone. I mean, why not just spend a hundred thousand years searching the riverbeds of middle earth while you're at it... Now obviously there are more toothbrushes than rings but again as gandalf said there are many so get over yourself oof.
@@SteffonDudley also he didn't "set up a fortress" that place had been standing for longer than gandalf himself had been in middle earth. You actually have no idea what you're talking about, do you?
Thank him for being wrong and threatening commenters to not correct him? That's hilarious. Be careful, the channel owner will delete your comments if you disagree with him. He's an insecure man-child who pretends to know Tolkien lore for clicks and views. He needs to get a real job.
Very well explained. I always thought it was quite obvious that Gandalf couldn't have known that Bilbo's rings was the One, because of the reasons you mentioned. So I was surprised to hear that it was considered a plot hole by so many people
Yeah nah bro it's pretty obviously a plot hole but the explanation is sufficient with a little imagination. Definitely not quite obvious that it wasnt a ring of power. You'd think maybe gandalf would have taken a look at it once considering his whole job was basically to eradicate something that coincidentally looks exactly like it's description. You could maybe argue he didn't know it was "the one" but for gandalf to not ascertain for himself that it was a ring of power is pretty stupid and certainly a plot hole considering in the rest of the narrative he just knows everything.
@@cooper5431 Gandalf certainly doesn't know everything for the rest of the story, in fact his not knowing everything is a huge reason why a lot of the later events in the book take place. You might say that Gandalf is wise to a fault; he doesn't assume anything, and tries to learn as much as he can about something before he takes action. But don't mistake a character trait fot a plot hole.
@@cooper5431 Not to me. To think that Bilbo has the ring of power is crazy, Gandalf's obvious thought subconsciously is it would never be possible he is a mere hobbit, Gandalf assumes its some minor ring with some invisibility power
@cooper5431 But he doesn't "just know everything", nor was it his job. Broadly speaking, all the Istari were sent to help the free folk against the Enemy, but only Saruman was actually versed in the ring-lore As far as Gandalf is concerned, Bilbo found one of the lesser rings. Gandalf attributed Bilbo's long life to his heritage as part-Took (with no one knowing that the OR could extend your life; no knew that Gollum was once hobbit), and did not see any corrupting effects until the party.
I just stumbled upon this video while sitting here drawing. At first I really had to check out your channel page as I was amazed at how much you resemble codyslab both your voice and how you look. Anyways, good video, I'll be having a peek at your other videos tomorrow.
I was never certain that Gandalf wasn't aware... It seems that -- while destroying it was still too difficult a task to strive for -- the safest place for the ring was the shire. It is the place with the least of Melkor's influence
Interesting! And well done. I have to admit I had taken a cynical but forgiving attitude about this "plot hole", figuring JRRT had written a cool story about a magic invisibility ring, later did a retcon to make that ring far more significant, and didn't quite nail the details. But in light of what you said, his retcon was successful and well ironed out, though perhaps his fix was too subtle.
Be careful, the channel owner will delete your comments if you disagree with him. He's an insecure man-child who pretends to know Tolkien lore for clicks and views. He needs to get a real job.
@@ABurntMuffin woah I was just making a joke about Gandalf getting lit with the Hobbits, have you maybe considered that you are taking this a little too seriously?
@@thefalsekingslayer3717 I'm not, I enjoyed your joke. But if your comment isn't "family friendly" our overlord might strike it down. Don't shoot the messenger, friendo.
We know that elves made magic swords, and it follows that they likely made all kinds of magic items. Dwarves made magic doors, and other magic items. I don't think that Middle Earth is as low in magic as some people claim.
i think the elder races could make magical stuff, but they couldn't CAST magic in combat, like Gandalf and other wizards could; i think that's why ppl think there's not much magic
Magic was used to create the world, Eru Iluvatar clearly saw magic as playing no role in the final form of his creation. Melkor used magic to create things that Eru didn't envisage which was the birth of evil. In the wars against morgoth both sides used magic to fight which led to a great deal of destruction. Depending on your interpretation, sauron was stripped of some of his magic (such as shapeshifting) as punishment for causing the downfall of numenor. The 5 wizards were purposefully given very limited magic in their human bodies so they could support Erus will in other ways. Mortal beings are intentionally cut off from the spirit realm entirely as they have to toil in return for the afterlife. This also plays into the evil of the ring. The core purpose of the ring was to allow a being in the physical realm more access to the magic of the spirit realm, for Sauron this was to give him access to magic which the Valar had denied him and anyone else in middle earth. In this light the overall moral of LotR is "power corrupts", all magic has to be denied to middle earth in the end because any magic will eventually drive people to evil.
To add on to all the reasons why it took so long for Gandolf to suspect, he probably just didn’t want to believe that the one ring was back because if Bilbo really had it they could’ve meant doom for the whole world.
I first read LOTR in 1977 when I was in the 8th grade. It was the first adult novel I ever read. As soon as I reached the end I immediately picked up the first volume and began chapter 1, A Long Expected Party and read it again 3 more times before I finally put it down for awhile. That's right. I read it 4 times in a row without a pause. Took me the entire school year. And no one around me had ever heard of it before and people wanted to know what I was reading. I became known around school as that guy with the book. That was also the year Star Wars came out. A lot happened to me that year.
Excellent and thorough analysis of a matter which deserves it. As with many other things there is nothing comparable to a complete and thorough knowledge of the subject
Gandalf was also under the spell of Saruman, which he admitted at the Council of Elrond: "There I was at fault," he said. "I was lulled by the words of Saruman the Wise." Aragorn told the hobbits of Saruman that "the Wise he could persuade, and the small folk he could daunt."
I'd also add, though this is just my speculation, that Gandalf didnt WANT to think Bilbo's ring was the One. If nothing else I vase this on the notion that as Bilbo seemed ageless after so many years he justified it as Bilbo having come from a "long-lived family on his mother's side." If Bilbo was in possession of the One Ring the entire Shire was in particular danger. Even after Bilbo's behavior at his going away party he HAD to be ENTIRELY sure before setting things in motion.
Be careful, the channel owner will delete your comments if you disagree with him. He's an insecure man-child who pretends to know Tolkien lore for clicks and views. He needs to get a real job.
@@ABurntMuffin Imagine having a life so lackluster that you waste a day posting the same drivel over and over in a comment section 3 months after a video was published... Seems you may be the one in need of a real job.
I think it also helped that Bilbo didn't really use it for violence. He mainly used it to avoid annoying relatives. I think that would have helped lessen the impact on Bilbo.
This was very useful, I was always taken back by the idea that Gandalf didn't figure out sooner, I had a hunch that somewhere it was said there were lesser rings but I wasn't sure and I just hand waved that. Now I know, thank you.
In the video by In Deep Geek you talked about an "earlier chapter" just as you did in this video. The "earlier chapter" is called 'Shadows of the Past'. It's the second chapter of the novel and, according to Tolkien, one of the first chapters he wrote.
Isn't Saruman already becoming corrupted (either by his own nature or influenced by the ring) before Bilbo even finds the ring? Can't remember the exact details, but he's either secretly searching the Gladden Fields himself, or alllowing the Necromancer to search there in hopes of uncovering The One Ring, obviously with the intent of taking it for himself. So Saruman has every reason to convince Gandalf (which he is sort of envious of) that The One Ring is lost forever, which would also play into why Gandalf doesn't believe Bilbos ring is The One.
He was actually showing signs of corruption early in time from the moment Gandelf was given on of the 3 elvish rings. I don't think he was corrupted by that point but his jealousy was the foothold that would lead to his fall
"There are some good reasons why Gandalf didn't know earlier" - yeah because Tolkien didn't know what was going to happen at the beginning of the story.
"A shadow fell on my heart then, though I did not know yet what I feared. I wondered often how Gollum came by a Great Ring, as plainly it was - that at least was clear from the first." Any explanation relying on Gandalf believing the one to be a lesser ring is DIRECTLY contradicted in the text.
Gandalf, though he initially suspected it was a Great Ring, _did_ come to believe it was a lesser ring, because Saruman told the White Council that all the Great Rings (save for the One) had stones set into them. And the One Ring was believed to have perished by all including Sauron after the War of the Last Alliance.
I DID enjoy the video! I’m re-reading LotR right now and just got to the part where Gandalf tells Frodo about the rings. This was exactly what I took from my careful reading, so it was very enjoyable to see that you hold the same position. That being said, I didn’t know there was even a debate on this, I thought it was fairly self-evident.
I think it's very important that Gandalf is shown to trust Saruman initially. Saruman's betrayal is a huge deal - he was sent to Middle Earth, like Gandalf, for one and only purpose - to stop Sauron. And even if Gandalf in his heart of hearts knew something was wrong, it must have been hard for him to accept even the prospect that he would be fighting not only Sauron, but also yet another being of extraordinary power.
The book explained it pretty well for me. The gravity of that ring being discovered was such that it's resurgence needed to be thoroughly confirmed. There were many that could be mistaken for it, so absolute empirical proof was needed.
The story suggests that the one ring has power and a will of its own and can hide or reveal itself and betray the ring bearer as well as the beholder. This is backed up by the fact, that the inscription fades and reappears only by the force of a strong fire. The ring hid his identity after it was separated from the dark lord.
Perhaps it was too much D&D, but when *Gandalf* said, _"There are many magic rings in this world, Bilbo Baggins…"_ I just assumed there were in fact *_many_*_ magic rings in the world._ 🤷🏼♂️ Terrific video! 🧙♂️
"Described in the works of The Silmarillion, the elves made many other Magic Rings, but they were mere practice for the craftsmen who created them. Their ultimate fates are unknown, nor is it known whether or not their powers were bound to the power of the One. If they were, then their power would have failed with the destruction of the One."
Better to do the fire test on every ring of power you find.... Gandalf the wise should have already known how to identify the one ring, he is in middle earth to help people destroy it... Lotr is the best buy nothing's perfect.
@@gramforgramarmwrestling6742 well Gandalf had to do research before he even learned of the possible 'test by fire', after all he didn't know that the fire would reveal the marks before he found information that it's the case, that's why Gandalf had to read the scroll written by Isildur :). "The Nine, the Seven, and the Three," he said, "had each their proper gem. Not so the One. It was round and unadorned, as it were one of the lesser rings; but its maker set marks upon it that the skilled, maybe, could still see and read." What those marks were he had not said. Who now would know? The maker. And Saruman? But great though his lore may be, it must have a source. What hand save Sauron's ever held this thing, ere it was lost? The hand of Isildur alone. `With that thought, I forsook the chase, and passed swiftly to Gondor. In former days the members of my order had been well received there, but Saruman most of all. Often he had been for long the guest of the Lords of the City. Less welcome did the Lord Denethor show me then than of old, and grudgingly he permitted me to search among his hoarded scrolls and books. ' "If indeed you look only, as you say, for records of ancient days, and the beginnings of the City, read on! " he said. "For to me what was is less dark than what is to come, and that is my care. But unless you have more skill even than Saruman, who has studied here long, you will find naught that is not well known to me, who am master of the lore of this City." `So said Denethor. And yet there lie in his hoards many records that few now can read, even of the lore-masters, for their scripts and tongues have become dark to later men. And Boromir, there lies in Minas Tirith still, unread, I guess, by any save Saruman and myself since the kings failed, a scroll that Isildur made himself. For Isildur did not march away straight from the war in Mordor, as some have told the tale.' 'Some in the North, maybe,' Boromir broke in. 'All know in Gondor that he went first to Minas Anor and dwelt a while with his nephew Meneldil, instructing him, before he committed to him the rule of the South Kingdom. In that time he planted there the last sapling of the White Tree in memory of his brother.' `But in that time also he made this scroll,' said Gandalf; `and that is not remembered in Gondor, it would seem. For this scroll concerns the Ring, and thus wrote Isildur therein: The Great Ring shall go now to be an heirloom of the North Kingdom; but records of it shall be left in Gondor, where also dwell the heirs of Elendil, lest a time come when the memory of these great matters shall grow dim. `And after these words Isildur described the Ring, such as he found it. It was hot when I first took it, hot as a glede, and my hand was scorched, so that I doubt if ever again I shall be free of the pain of it. Yet even as I write it is cooled, and it seemeth to shrink, though it loseth neither its beauty nor its shape. Already the writing upon it, which at first was as clear as red flame, fadeth and is now only barely to be read. It is fashioned in an elven-script of Eregion, for they have no letters in Mordor for such subtle work; but the language is unknown to me. I deem it to be a tongue of the Black Land, since it is foul and uncouth. What evil it saith I do not know; but I trace here a copy of it, lest it fade beyond recall. The Ring misseth, maybe, the heat of Sauron's hand, which was black and yet burned like fire, and so Gil-galad was destroyed; and maybe were the gold made hot again, the writing would be refreshed. But for my part I will risk no hurt to this thing: of all the works of Sauron the only fair. It is precious to me, though I buy it with great pain. 'When I read these words, my quest was ended. For the traced writing was indeed as Isildur guessed, in the tongue of Mordor and the servants of the Tower. And what was said therein was already known. For in the day that Sauron first put on the One, Celebrimbor, maker of the Three, was aware of him, and from afar he heard him speak these words, and so his evil purposes were revealed." It was Saruman who was the council's expert on the rings and ringlore: "The lore of the Elven-rings, great and small, is his province. He has long studied it, seeking the lost secrets of their making; but when the Rings were debated in the Council, all that he would reveal to us of his ring-lore told against my fears. So my doubt slept - but uneasily. Still I watched and I waited. ‘And all seemed well with Bilbo. And the years passed. Yes, they passed, and they seemed not to touch him. He showed no signs of age. The shadow fell on me again. But I said to myself: “After all he comes of a long-lived family on his mother’s side. There is time yet. Wait!” ‘And I waited. Until that night when he left this house. He said and did things then that filled me with a fear that no words of Saruman could allay. I knew at last that something dark and deadly was at work. And I have spent most of the years since then in finding out the truth of it.’"
@@gramforgramarmwrestling6742 No, he didn't know about the markings on the ring until he had read the scrolls of Isildur in Minas Tirith. How would he? After gaining this knowledge he proceeded at once to The Shire to perform the test that previously neither he nor any other save Isildur (and Sauron) knew about.
@John Daly Saruman absolutely knew. He had literally millenia to learn about the rings, and he was obsessed with it for half of it, and he had access to the same archives Gandalf searched. So would Gandalf not have even mentioned the fact that Bilbo had an invisibility ring to Saruman, whom he considered a loyal friend? Or would Saruman not have learned about it from another source, given that all the dwarves and a lot of elves and humans near Erebor saw him turn invisible? Saruman is the biggest hole in the theory imo, he should have learned about the ring a lot earlier, and he would be so obsessed with the One that he would absolutely want to check it out, just to be certain
Also, the ring has its own ‘power’ and ‘desire’ to be returned to Sauron almost to the point where it’s sort of it’s own character. You could argue that as a ‘character’ it was biding it’s time in the shire, concealing itself, hiding in plain sight and waiting for the right moment to be reunited with its master. Concealing the brewing evil is something that Sauron constantly does with his own magic - it would make sense that his ring might have the same ability.
Sums it up perfectly in my opinion. Bear in mind until the White Council attacked the Necromancer in Dol Guldur they were unaware he was in fact Sauron returned. The Istari were sent originally to counter the Nazgul and believed the Necromancer was a Nazgul. And Gollum was the cut off between the Gladden fields and the finding of the ring in terms of the rings history.
One other point is information sources. I'm sure Sauron wouldn't discuss it's crafting or powers; only Isildur and he alone held it and wrote about it. Boromir didn't even _know_ he had taken the One Ring, and he was the heir to Denethor.
I don't think Denethor knew about The Ring until he interrogated Pippin. The scene in the film where he tells Boromir and Faramir that The Ring has been found is misleading.
You have to also possibly consider the One Ring was likely hiding. What ever influence and power it had over others was seemingly absent during those early years. It could be because Sauron's own power was so weak at the time but it was also odd the ring seemingly quietly remained in Biblo's possession all that time. When a mere glance in the rings direction would normally draw people in and cause them to fight over it's power. Gandolf himself was in close proximity to the ring several times through out the Hobbit, never felt a twinge of it's power. Which was almost odd in many ways given the more powerful the user, the easier they are to corrupt. You would think the ring would take ever chance to get away from Bilbo once he was in MIrkwood and so close to forces that would bear the ring to it's master. Yet he wore it on his finger for days/weeks without it trying to fall off or abandon him. Very odd over all.
That can be explained by Tolkien simply not having written literally ANYTHING at all about the One Ring. Your observations and predictions are completely valid. Had Tolkien started writing about Rings and Sauron's big project at the time of the writing of thr Hobbit, then Tolkiek could have written it differently. But at the time, it was just a magical object with no meaning to the History of Middle-Earth. Ironically, the Arkenstone had the kind of effect on people that you'd think the Ring would have had, only it wasn't designed to be any amazing artifact
I never thought of it as a plot hole. I didn’t think that he realized at first, but even when the thought came into his mind, due to Saruman’s insistence that it was gone forever, and that being the general consensus, thought that it was very possible that it wasn’t. As he looked into the matter, he had many other tasks to attend to, and believed it was probably in the most mundane and uninteresting place, safe in it’s hiding place while he could find further evidence about it’s provenance. As more evidence presented itself, slowly building up more “circumstantial” evidence, and then more and more definitive proof- including Gollum’s tortured exhortations, the dispatch of the Nazgûl to focus their search on The Shire, Bilbo’s dependency and addiction to it, culminating in his anger at Gandalf’s insistence that he give it up, the subsequent testing in the fire and the inscription, the inability of the fire to damage or even as much as warm it- there could be no doubting what it was. So I don’t think it’s a plot hole, or that he was clueless for close to eight decades- what began as an idea whose mere possibility was vehemently denied, to a suspicion with little definitive evidence, to known characteristics coming to light, forensic metallurgical testing, “psychically” feeling it’s power, and Sauron’s belief that it was The One to the extent that he dispatched The Nazgûl to retrieve it- well, it’s just Middle-Earth mythological bureaucracy at work, which may seem a snail’s pace to our collective modern mind. Just my opinion, obviously. Thanks for the video!
He knew it was a Great Ring from the beginning. He told Frodo that. He obviously knew where the Three and the Nine were. Therefore it could only be the One or one of the Seven. He did not "know" for certain it was the One until he put it to the test at Bag End, but he wasn't surprised by the result. There did exist at least the possibility that it was one of the Seven.
That’s true but Saruman also told the council in the year of the battle of five army’s that all the other great rings had gems except the one, so he should have known it was the one right away, either he forgot what Saruman said or it’s a plot hole ?
@@Jh68101 Not necessarily. Remember, there were lesser rings in addition to the great rings. The smiths of Eregion made them as "essays in the craft", and they were far more numerous than the 19 great rings. Most importantly, the lesser rings, like the One Ring, were unadorned with gems, while the great rings all had gems set into them. Gandalf had every reason to suspect that Bilbo's ring was one of these lesser rings until the Nazghul started looking for the One.
It’s pretty clear that’s not what he means when you consider the fate he describes for the great rings lines up perfectly with what happened to the Nazgul.
@@TolkienLorePodcast I’d say the fact that he feels the need to pluralise “great rings” is evidence enough that these- the most prominent of known rings besides The One- is evidence enough.
I assumed it was because he never saw signs of Bilbo’s corruption/obsession with it up until the events of LOTR, whereas with other bearers the signs were there from the get-go.
Gandalf feared it as "too great and terrible to imagine" that it would be the One Ring. Kinda like how Commissioner Gordon can but doesn't really wanna know that Bruce Wayne is Batman.
Lex Luther has never picked up on Superman being Clark Kent not because he's not smart enough, but because someone as selfish and power hungry as he is simply isn't capable of imagining that a being like Superman would ever "stoop so low" as to be some common reporter. It isn't what Lex Luthor would do, that's for sure.
Be careful, the channel owner will delete your comments if you disagree with him. He's an insecure man-child who pretends to know Tolkien lore for clicks and views. He needs to get a real job.
Gandalf doesn't know anything about the missing history of the One Ring, Isildur claiming it and then losing it in the Gladden Fields, or about the Inscription until he reads the Scroll of Isildur in the archives of Minas Tirith. He then follows Aragorn in his hunt for Gollum into Mirkwood and after that goes straight to Hobbiton and tests the Ring in front of Frodo.
I think that Gandalf suspected for a while, but didn't have any proof. And since everything he had ever been told or knew up till that point was that the One Ring was at the bottom of the ocean.
No The probability that Bilbo has Saurons One Ring was so low as to be incomperhensible. Who would actually believe that? Also, the One Ring can cloak itself from anyone it wants to. Gandalf had to go do super deep research in ancient libraries all over the whole of Middle Earth to be actually sure a tiny Hobbit had the most dansgerous physical item on the whole planet. The idea a Hobbit had the Ring was perposterous.
I actually understood this much differently. What I believe is that Gandalf had strong suspicions that it was the One Ring, but since it seemed to not be overtly affecting Bilbo, he believe it was safer in his hands, than anywhere else. Especially, considering the enemy didn't know where it was. In fact, he was the only person who even suspected Bilbo at all. So, he intentionally did not pursue it harder and sooner, because he felt it was best kept secret in the hands of somebody who was not being overtly affected by it. When it finally became a matter of urgency, considering Bilbo was finally showing severe signs of control, he decided to actually test it, to make absolutely sure. I believe it was a calculated gamble from Gandalf, which he came to regret as a bad decision. Gandalf is not infallible. He makes mistakes in judgement at times. I believe this was a mistake in judgement, and an error in calculation which he came to regret...at best. And at worst, was a calculated way to keep the ring hidden, even though he suspected it was the One Ring. To me, this is much more believable than your explanation. I appreciate your thorough thought process, however. Keep up the good work!!
It should be remembered that there are many 'practice rings' that Celebrimbor made over the decades he spent mastering ringcraft. They all conferred handy useful singular powers (though often with big flaws), so invisibility could conceivably be one, and were unadorned rings of silver and gold like what Bilbo showed him. It was one of these that he always assumed Bilbo lucked into finding. It was not until he noticed changes in Bilbo's behavior that he began to suspect the Ring was not safe to use (aforementioned flaws, it's why he said none of the magic rings should be used lightly), but still didn't suspect what it really was. But it wasn't until Bilbo failed to age properly, and then mentioned that while he didn't look old, he felt it, that he was feeling thin and sort of stretched... that Gandalf's alarm bells triggered. Bilbo was describing having his life extended, a sensation Gandalf knew himself from his own Great Ring. And so far as Gandalf knew... only the Great Rings did that. After that it was just a matter of deduction, really. He first sat and worked out where the Great Rings had all gone in his head... he probably was done doing that before Bilbo even gave his speech, because only ONE Great Ring had no adornment... the rest all had their proper stones and this had none, and this was commonly known. After that he had to find a way to tell for certain whether Bilbo had been EXTRA unusually lucky and found a lesser ring, the first found that both extended life and made you invisible, or if the world had been especially unlucky and Bilbo had stumbled upon the One Ring. This he did by questioning Gollum, and learning where Gollum had found it centuries ago, and then delving into Isildur's journals and writings at Minas Tirith to find a conclusive way to tell the One from the lesser, short of giving it to Sauron and seeing what happens.
Really people are still going on about this. It also says implicitly in the movie that the ring had passed out of all knowledge for two thousand years.
"And some things that should not have been forgotten were lost. History became legend. Legend became myth. And for two and a half thousand years, the ring passed out of all knowledge."
Another thing that could have lead to the conclusion it was a lesser ring was that neither gollum, Bilbo nor Frodo had become truly corrupted and all powerful by having it. Basically it appeared to just make the wearer invisible and gave long life, Gollum was a miserable wretch and not king under the mountain with an army of orcs.
Well Gollum never knew it was a ring of power. He wouldn't just test it by say, walk to a goblin and command him to do something. I forgot who mentioned it, but Frodo basically learns that, if he gave a command with it on, most would be compelled to obey. and uses that info on Gollum later on. And it's because Bilbo never did, that he never found out about that power of the ring. (Although I feel I'm mixing some stuff for this)
Many of these so called plot holes tend to only be plot holes for those that have only seen the movies. Those that read the source materials knows that they're not plot holes.
Indeed. Gandalf describes his thinking in some detail at The Council of Elrond, though it may be that he revised his memory and was really less suspicious of Bilbo's Ring than he makes out.
Yes it is, this video doesn't change it. There are three holes in this theory: 1. Invisibility isn't a common power in Middle Earth, the Ring is literally the only one we know of that grants it. If the "trinketa" of Elven smiths made dozens of them for practice, if it was easy to craft a ring of invisibility, why wouldn't such a useful ability be more commonplace? Assuming that such a potent ring was "just a toy" is too reckless for Gandalf's character 2. Gandalf cares about Bilbo's well-being, and he thinks all magical rings are at least potentially dangerous, so why didn't he investigate the Ring before letting Bilbo keep it. Hit the books, learn what effects the minor elf-made rings had, or maybe ask... 3. Saruman. Saruman was obsessed with the Ring, he surely had read about it in Isildur's archives and knew its description, it's effects on mortal users, and how to "test" it in fire, and he had spies and informanta looking for the ring. There were dozens of people who witnessed Bilbo turn invisible/visible using the ring, surely the rumor about the hobbit with an invisibility ring would have reached Saruman's ears even if Gandalf didn't tell him. And with how obsessed he was with the Ring, he would've sent someone to investigate as soon as he learned about bilbo's ring, even if it was just a hunch
@@exantiuse4971. The skill to make those king of rings is mostly long gone since it was the Smiths of Eregion who were not just simple elven smiths but were High Elven survivors from Feanor's people. Feanor was the greatest Elvin Smith to ever live and made tones of Magic items (the Palantiri were made by him probably) Sting was made by Noldorian Elves in the first age. The King of Eregion Celebrimbor was the Grandson of Feanor. So those people were not just some Wood Elves but were a last vestige of the greatest smiths to ever live- They literally learned their Craft from the gods of middle earth thus they had knowledge that was special. So while to them Magic rings were a trifle they were not so to most other people (including other Elven kindreds) Elves are not all the same- Legolas is partly blown away by the high elves, or at least they feel alien to him. He says something to the tune of "the trees do not remember them, only the stones remember them- they are gone, they sought the havens long ago" Most of the Nolder who were not killed by Sauron left Middle Earth after the War of the Last Alliance. So people with the knowledge of how to craft such magic items have been dead or gone for over 3,000 years. (as it happens almost all the major magic items were made by this group of High Elves) The Silmarion, Sting, Glamdring, Orcrist, the Palantiri, the rings of Power (other than the One Ring itself) were all made by Feanor's people, or his close kindred. (practically everything Magic in middle earth is either from them or the Dark Lord himself.) 2. Gandalf has respect for Bilbo's right to his property. unless he has a really good reason to do otherwise then he would say nothing. This might sound like a cop-out but its actually a major theme in the whole story- its wrong to take things that don't belong to you. 3. As for Saruman's spies not so many people knew about Bilbo's invisility, mainly the dwarves. There is no reason to suspect that Saruman would have had spies in the North at that time so it would have taken a long time for any rumors to leak back to him.
@@exantiuse497 3. Can be easily be explained: Saruman doesn't care about the Hobbits. He is just like Sauron in that regard. It would be very unlikely of either of them to have spies among them. And the secrecy or rather privacy of the hobbits adds to this: there aren't really any story passing past the borders of the shire, no matter if they come from the outside or the inside. As William pointed out, not many people outside of the birthday party knew about the invisibility and those were pretty much only the dvarvs (not sure if they actually knew about it). Another thing to keep in mind: People knew Gandalf was a friend of Bilbo and that he was a wizard. I wouldn't be surprised if the hobbits simply blamed Gandalf for that invisibility trick. Or rather, sudden dissappearing, for they did not strictly know that he truly turned invisible
It was in the book that talks about the "lesser rings". That it might be a dwarven ring was avoided because those were already known to have been collected, lost at sea or destroyed by dragons, minor question: was the balrog of Durins baine capable of destroying a greater ring?
@@jessepollard7132 doubt it. It is stated that not even the most terrible dragon's fire could melt it, and gandalf was able to outmatch and kill Durin's bane mask while himself not being able to destroy the ring. Not that things wouldn't have gone reeeeal bad for middle earth had that thing obtained the one
I never read the Harry Potter books so horecrux is a new word to me. I found a few definitions. A Horcrux was an object in which a Dark wizard or witch has hidden a fragment of his or her soul in order to become immortal. Horcruxes could only be created after committing murder, the supreme act of evil. The process for the creation of a Horcrux involved a spell and a horrific act is performed soon after the murder has been committed.
@@racernatorde5318 The concept of an essence being preserved inside of an object wasn’t original to Tolkien either. And I like the term horecrux because it sounds cool. The ring Bilbo found in the Hobbit was just a magical ring that turned you invisible if you put it on, like the Greek mythical item the Ring of Gyges.
@@mrmaat Oh, not just preserving essence. This whole "only destroying this thing allows you to kill..." is very, very similar. And conisdering the amount of other things she copied... But I don't even want to sound as negative about this as I probably do right now. Taking inspiration from other authors or sources is something that has always happened. It's just when people tend to pretend something was someones "invention", when it really was someone else who defined it, that I get bothered by it
Great Video! There is a bigger plot hole, that I feel hasn't been addressed. Gandalf arrived in Middle Earth in 1100 of the Third Age. His mission as an Istari, was to guide and advise the free people of Middle Earth. But within the time he arrived in Middle Earth and the events of the Lord of Rings, many of the kingdoms of men and dwarves had either fallen or were weakened by war or internal strife(Arnor, Gondor, Moria, Erebor etc) This raises the question; why didn't Gandalf prevent these kingdoms from collapsing? He could have prevented their collapse by advising their kings and leaders properly, thus preventing their collapse and preserving a unified a front again Sauron. After all, isn't this why Gandalf was sent to Middle Earth anyways? Let me know your thoughts on this.
That and there were other forces at work. Moria fell because of a Balrog, a completely unforeseen eventuality. Erebor fell to Smaug. Eregion was long gone. In fact the only kingdom I can think of that fell in the Third Age after the Istari arrived was Arnor and its subsidiary kingdoms, but that was the result of a long, concerted campaign which probably could not have been resisted forever as things were.
@@TolkienLorePodcast but see that is my point. Also Moria and Erebor fell after Gandalf arrived. Again, my point is, I feel Gandalf could have nonetheless prevented this. For example, in Arnor, he could prevented the kingdom from dividing, by bringing peace amongst the three faction, or by uniting them against Angmar. In the case or Erebor and Moria, he could have advised the kings at the time, against their greed(which was brought about by the dwarven ring of power). Heck even in the case of Gondor, he could have prevented events such as the Kinstrife. In doing so they would have had a unified front against Sauron, unlike at the start of the Lord of the Rings, where many of the great kingdoms had fallen or were weakened. That way he wouldn't have had to do damage control, and with the great kingdoms of men, dwarves, and elves unified and strong.
Well Gandalf wasn’t a miracle worker so you’re expecting an awful lot if you think he should have reunited the kingdom of Arnor. You have to remember Rhudaur straight up allied with Angmar.
Gandalf assuming what Bilbo had was the one ring would be like us assuming the swords in the background of this video were the same swords used when shooting the movies.
I've never read the books, only seen the movies. And so I don't know all the details. But honestly, as a child watching Fellowship for the first time. 1 sentence led me to this conclusion that lesser rings exist. "It began with the forging of the great rings." Now it's not proof that there was lesser rings, but in my mind, the fact they are referred to as GREAT rings made me think there was other magic rings, but these were special. So I never thought of this as a plot hole.
There is also a reference to "lesser rings" that were "plain and unadorned." The elves were experimenting with these before the creation of the great rings. The one ring was made to look like one of these lesser rings.
Yeah, plus when we got introduced to the ring, tolkien downplayed it hard. Made it sound like it came from rings-r-us
At the ring’s powers are very nuanced; for “lesser” users such as bilbo it only makes him invisible (as well as the obvious pull towards returning the ring to Sauron). We aren’t told explicitly what most of the other rings do but on face level turning invisible seems more like a lesser ring power. Not the one ring to rule them all. After all to gandalf if all the elven rings are explicitly more powerful than just turning invisible than its an easy mistake to make
It reminds me of that scene in Indiana Jones where he has to pick out the correct Holy Grail, and it ends up being the one that looks completely mundane and nowhere near as decorative or spectacular as any of the others in the room.
Damn I stole your comment without noticing. My bad.
@@dorothygezurian6041 It's not really original since Tolkien said so himself.
“There are many magic rings in this world, and none of them should be used lightly.”
-Gandalf the Grey
Omg yess of course!
And who is 'Galdalf'?
Be careful, the channel owner will delete your comments if you disagree with him. He's an insecure man-child who pretends to know Tolkien lore for clicks and views. He needs to get a real job.
@@ABurntMuffin You mad bro?
@@cerberus6654 Galdalf is Gandalf’s brother. You don’t hear about him much. He lays low after getting caught using inappropriate charms on a goat.
A Character making a bad choice, and explaining why they made the bad choice, is never a plot hole. A character choice being suboptimal is characterisation UNLESS it completely contradicts a specific known trait. Gandalf not being all knowing is an important piece of characterisation for the story.
"If only Gandalf were here then everything would be alright!" or something close to it is uttered several times throughout the books, but Gandalf is shown to make several mistakes throughout the stories that the character fully admits. The greatest among us make mistakes but keep going the same as the least among us who carry on and win the day.
@@damace3838 _"For even the very wise cannot see all ends."_
"unexplained story element" is also NEVER a plot hole.
@@yondie491well is can be IF something in the resolution of the story (or key characterisations) relies on it. It is a gap in the plot. But not all holes are created equally. It is only a hole in the bad sense if something we need for the story to work is missing, or we have a contradiction of a previously established point. But then plot hole feels like the wrong term even though it is used that way
@@neodigremo that's cuz it is the wrong term
I always thought it was implied the ring had a kind of intelligence as well. When it ended up with Bilbo, and was stuck in the Shire it became fairly dormant power-wise because it had no immediate way of getting back to Sauron (Gandalf I think even says, 'The ring wants to be found.') Then when Boromir appears it starts to work on him almost immediately, as he is travelling back to Gondor and is the most likely to get the ring closest to Sauron, and it's power becomes more obvious. The other members of the Fellowship aren't beholden to travel all the way to Mordor, and Boromir as a powerful warrior has more chance of making it than Frodo. So I was thinking it wasn't apparent to Gandalf all that time when it was with Bilbo, because it was hiding it's power from him as it waited for a likely candidate to take it south.
That makes a lot of sense. If it started working on Bilbo right away Gandalf would have noticed and took action.
The ring is the essence of Sauron, and an extension of his will. They are one in the same. The ring doesn’t have its own intelligence (since Sauron cannot grant intelligence unique from his own, only Eru can do that), it acts in Sauron’s will because it is Sauron. This almost sounds like a contradiction, in that he really ought to have been able to find it if it were part of him, but it is not part of him physically, rather theologically. They exist as separate manifestations of one another, not as connected objects.
It started working on Boromir from the moment he saw it at the Council of Elrond, but he was in denial until Galadriel tested his heart when they first arrived in Lorien. Boromir had the least resistance to its influence because of his personality and because of his need to protect Gondor. He never really listened to the people who kept saying that the Ring should never be used. Not, that is, until it was too late.
OTOH, you are correct about the Ring's power growing as it gets closer to where it was forged. I'm just saying that even in Rivendell, Boromir was being influenced.
the whole irony of the rings is saurons making of them is dependent on his evil mind thinking the recipients want the same as he does total domination.it works with the nine rings as man does appear to be the weakest willed species on middle earth ,boromir denethor theoden isildur ,for example less well with the dwarves excepting the dwarf rings influence lead to greed and self destruction in moria awaking the balrog.also he makes a basic error in dol guldor not allowing thrains ring to pass to thorin.even without it the influence it had on thorin being owned by his father and grandfather greatly magnifies his greed over smaugs horde already rampant.had he had the ring sauron would have won the war .his obsessive greed would have destroyed any chance of an alliance with elves men dwarves and eagles.hed have continued to fight elves and men despite the oncoming orc army erebor would have fallen leaving the hordes from the misty mountains free to attack rohan and gondor from the north whilst he attacked from the south with the corsairs haradrim and orcs from mordor.his big failure was the three who carried the one ring after isildur.unable to believe anyone could relinquish it let alone destroy it his big fear is whoever has it will use it as a weapon.however the three hobbits or four if you include sam have no such ambitions they dont think like that.gollum falls in love with the ring itself but his mind is too small and bitter to use it other than a way to kill goblins for food.yet like bilbo and frodo the ring has less effect physically on him than others though he has it for centuries.the ring itself bides its time until escape beckons with bilbo.then to its horror he doesnt use it or take it to its master but hides it.he then does the impossible he relinqishes it to frodo.however its marked that the ring has far more effect on him in the 80 years he has it then when frodo owns it and uses it far less than bilbo and gollum the rings evil influence is accelerated as if being out in the world speeds up its yearning for its master.it definately sees boromir as the weak link and hopes to use him to return home.eventually both it and sauron are thwarted by the simple truth that no other species on earth would try to destroy it willingly.sauron doesnt post guards on mount doom because thre is no need whoever has it would according to his thinking declare themselves long before and the ring would be his.
@@TheDrumstickEmpire Eru evidently didn't know anything about AI.
Even in The Hobbit, it's said: But who knows how Gollum came by that present, ages ago in the old days when such rings were still at large in the world?... Alluding to the fact that rings of invisibility were more common back then.
Definetly. And in my head cannon the ring's power manifests as a reflection of the person that wears it. In Frodo and Bilbo, common and unambitious people, it manifests as invisibility ring. It isnt more powerful than one of the first elven experiments with ringmaking. I wish it had manifested a bit different in Isildur, as that would have made me more certain of this. But maybe it's only like this with mortals, extending their lifespan and shielding them from harm by making them invisible.
@@ignazioacerenza9881 Sam used it to make illusions in that tower in mordor making the orcs see him as a tall elven warrior.
@@DaDunge Hah that's such a cool idea. I love that interpretation!
I like to think that Gandalf knowing Gollum was a hobbit, it was the fact he looked about 300 or whatever he was - there might have been other invisibility rings but keeping u alive all that time was much more interesting else altogether.
@@DaDunge That's no illusion. Sam actually IS a tall elven warrior; wearing the form of a hobbit.
So in a nutshell: many rings exist and this one wasn’t that conspicuous to start with, and, Saruman misled Gandalf by claiming the One Ring was lost forever.
And because it didn't have a gem as a recognisable characteristic it looked just like other lesser rings, that also didn't have gems in them.
Pretty much, though I would argue that other than the rings of power... we see little to no magical items in the books/movie. Which really diminishes the idea these lesser magical rings are just "around" enough to dismiss. I am fairly sure this was plot hole that clever fans could cover up but the original author probably over looked. I mean Tolkien wrote a massively detailed world, some mistakes bound to happen.
@@JustaGuy_Gaming i think it's more that they *used* to be all over the place. But that particular culture was destroyed, and so the rings were lost to history save for the great rings that were powerful enough to keep finding bearers.
@@JustaGuy_Gaming you’re forgetting the Palantirs and the magic of kings, elves and wizards. We see all of that. Plus all the relic architecture of the past.
@@susanappleby2414 Some people have magical effects, but magical items are very rare. Honestly it seems like other than things Elves still make the most common thing to be lying around is magical weapons.
Still my over all point was Bilbo's Ring had a pretty amazing magical effect to just be ignored, even if it was considered a lesser ring. Unlimited invisibility and a seeming ability to lengthen the users life span even when not worn is pretty impressive.
Also from what we know magical rings with no gems or decoration is pretty rare even in lesser rings.
There's also the fact that ring lore wasn't exactly common knowledge, and even among the savvy, it wasn't at the top of anyone's mind. The rings of power were mostly forgotten among men, the dwarves never really cared about them, the Elves intentionally didn't speak about them to avoid drawing attention, and Sauron wasn't exactly advertising that he's still alive and plotting his revenge and needs his ring to attain his full power again. Upon seeing a magic ring, nobody's first thought is going to be "ah yes, Sauron's missing ring of power," not even Gandalf.
Ya this video was kinda stupid and just seems like some weird thought he came up with just so he could have a click baity title. There is definitely no plot hole here and even if it's not spelt out in the books, it's pretty obvious why he didn't just know what it was instantly 🙄
Tell that to all the people in the comments insisting Tolkien did in fact leave a plot hole.
@@chrish4439 🤡
I mean when the whole thing is about finding the one ring that can f everything up and gandalf's whole job is to prevent sauron coming back by it .... i mean he had decades to just ask bilbo to hand him it so he could look at his ring. Pretty sure it would've been obvious considering bilbo would have tweaked about losing it showing corruption or gandalf would immediately sense it's power upon touching it. Either way the guy was too busy smoking bud with the hobbits and blowing magic smoke rings to tie the one loose end from The Hobbit which just so happened to be the one thing everyone was looking for. That being said i love the books/movies/everything but have always felt like gandalf 100% dropped the ball with this one. Just somehow didn't do any due diligence with it and instead went off for 20 years to research about it. So important enough to study 20 years but not ask to look at it once .......
@@chrish4439 Wow! Did you even watch the video? He's talking about how OTHER people thought there was a plot hole... not him.. lol
Gandalf is not entirely beyond the magic of Saruman's speech. So even if the explanation he was given was less than perfect, his judgment might well have been clouded by the soothing voice of the white wizard. Especially while he still trusted him.
His voice was supposed to be magic after all.
@@JoeEnderman words are magic. Defining and naming something holds power
@@bluemoon1716 to be fair he did smoke the hobbits leaf quite a bit lol.
@@mrnobody6447 Saruman: "Your love for the Halflings' leaf has clearly slowed your mind."
Doesnt need to magically influence gandalf when he was high all the time. Especially when visiting his country friends XD.
Concur, nor the other members of the WC. Saruman stating that the ring rolled down the Anduin to the sea or whatever would have had a strong lingering effect even when Saruman was not present.
I think what gets that argument going is that our focus is on the ring because we know the story. Gandalf had a lot going on when he arrived in middle earth, finding the ring was something saruman was more concerned with. Gandalf wouldn’t have thought that the ring would simply fall into his lap as it did. Remember also there were many magic rings in middle earth also.
Best answer, plus the ring has shown itself able to shrink, possibly give off an "be unassuming." (Someone-Elses-Problem Field) similar to its effect on the wearer.
Also has been shown able attract those it wants to attract & even somewhat "think". We can speculate that the ring wanted to stay low-key, but close enough to civilization. Which is partly why it left Gollum. Thus it could make a move into Sauron's hands via the agency of the Ring Wraiths which the ring would "recognize".
Plus Gandalf never touches or even closely examines the ring till TLoR Fellowship of The Ring when its on the floor.
It doesn't have the Mordor Script on it either, it faded, presumably from lack of anyone really USING its power. Until after fire is applied...
Those who think this general topic is a plot hole, haven't put any thought into it as there are many pointers and you only need a few to realize how easy it would be to miss when your mission focus is elsewhere.
Gandalf explains what happened clearly enough during The Council of Elrond.
Saruman was the recognised master of ringlore and he said that The Ring had been carried down Anduin to The Sea.
Gandalf only began to doubt him after Bilbo's Party.
And was sometime after that that he visited Minas Tirith and found Isildur's description of the Ring Inscription.
TheLibran1 Yes, if it doesn’t want to be found. I love the intent of the Ring. Any time I start to underestimate it as an actual character I quickly realize my mistake. 😅
@@alanpennie8013 I think that Gandalf had doubts for a while, but he also had no reason to doubt Saruman's history of the One Ring. I think that Gandalf making Bilbo leave the ring was both for Bilbo's own good as well as being a test to see if it might be more than some random lesser ring. After Bilbo's Party he knew it was just some lesser ring, and went off to find out what it really was.
aye, Gandalf's responsibility was raising up the people of middle earth with united and inspired peoples to combat great evils , like he once inspired elves & men with dreams as a maia , a colossal task that was never completely accomplished till after the war of the ring
The ring has been lost for 2.500 years prior to gollum finding it and keeping it for another 500 years or so. Then it passed to Bilbo, it even says in the books that Gandalf seldom came into the Shire, and you have to also consider the fact that Gandalf was busy with other stuff as well and the ones looking after the shire were the Rangers, including Aragorn. There is also a huge time gap in the books from when Bilbo leaves the Shire and passes the ring to Frodo and the time that Gandalf comes back to the shire to enquire about the ring , arround 30 years or more I think. I don't see a plot hole, just nitpicking.
Exactly. Gandalf spent decades doing research so he could identify the one ring.
I think it was more around 17 years. But still a large amount of time passed
Yep, that always stuck out to me when I read the books that Gandalf didn't come back to the shire for decades after leaving Frodo. He spent all those years researching to make sure it was the one ring.
@@shadowreaper2011 not a lot of time on Gandalf's scale
@@yondie491 Only the oldest being on the planet (Treebeard) could call Gandalf "young". Though if we're just referring to the spirit of Gandalf, he's wicked old. Older than the elves and only slightly younger than the Valar.
This explanation also underscores what a careful strategist was Gandalf. The wizard was ALSO an investigator of the first order. Him knowing that guessing wrong could at the least waste time on a fruitless endeavor. The plodding nature of Gandalf's inquiry makes him not naive, as might be assumed by the reader, but a dogged detective willing to act only after making a solid conclusion.
But why would it take him so much time to start investigating? Invisibility is not a common power in Tokien's world, the Ring is the only one that grants it in the entire series, so he shouldn't have assumed that it's just a minor trinket of the elves.
Besides, just like he says, ALL magical rings are dangerous in the hands of mortals, so why would he leave it in Bilbo's hands without at least investigating if it's safe first? Gandalf cares for Bilbo's well-being, it's not in character for him to ignore such a potent threat to his safety so easily
@@exantiuse497 but we don't know that invisibility is unusual. Magic rings are unusual in themselves, but so are the Elven swords that they take from the Troll's horde. In the events of the Hobbit they are traveling through the lands that once housed the culture that created the magic rings and the magic swords. Perhaps invisibility was a common side effect of the lesser rings.
Furthermore very little is known about the one ring. Although Gandalf and Saruman came to Middle Earth to help free it of Sauron's baleful influence, they were instructed not to fight power with power. They came as advisors, stewards. Therefore beyond a certain point it was not their proper place to study the ringcraft in detail and, as the story does show, even that study proves deeply dangerous to Saruman.
Therefore who knew the one ring made mortals invisible? Only Isildur and later Saruman who did not share all he knew with others of the White Council.
Gandalf, therefore, may have had no particular reason to be suspicious of a ring of invisibility except in general terms of mistrusting the ringcraft that had led to so much harm in Middle Earth.
@@alexmckee4683 Let's think about the invisibility thing logically: invisibility is an extremely powerful and useful thing. Any thief or other criminal would kill for such an ability, a warrior would benefit from it greatly, and a king or noble would want it for security against assassins etc.
If such a powerful and coveted ability was so easy to make that even the weak "practice" rings had it as a side effect, surely it would be commonplace, if not in the Third Age, then at least in the First or Second age when powerful artisans and smiths were still around. Even if it only affected mortals, there were plenty of great human heroes who would've wanted the ability to turn invisible. How beneficial would it have been for e.g. Turin to use an invisibility ring when fighting the dragon, or Beren to use one when sneaking around in Angband, or for Elessar and his kin to use that power in the war against Sauron? Surely the elves would give their allies magic rings of invisibility if they were so easy to make?
Yet there is no mention of anyone but Maiar or other supernatural beings using invisibility, no mortal ever goes invisible in any of the tales, except by using the One Ring. Yes, it's possible that there were hundreds of magical rings that granted invisibility, flying etc extraordinary abilities that people just didn't use for some reason, but I think it requires jumping through too many logical hoops to be believable
@@exantiuse497 you have focused on one aspect, the invisibility. I agree that it is unlikely to be common (in itself), and I wasn't suggesting that it was (bear in mind that even the lesser rings are very rare), just pointing out that the text doesn't say that it is or isn't, and that strange and wonderful powers are claimed of other artifacts from the same provenance. You cannot therefore infer that it should have been obvious to Gandalf that the ring was the One Ring.
You assert again that only the One Ring was known to have this effect, but I remind you that only Isildur knew that the One Ring granted invisibility. Saruman would have read any account that Isildur left while researching the ring, but the text does show that even from early times Saruman had misled the other members of the White Council on matters pertaining to the ring. Therefore at the beginning of the FoTR perhaps only two living beings knew that the One Ring had this power, Sauron and Saruman.
What makes you think the Nine didn’t make the Nazgul invisible?
Gandalf only finds out how to test the ring by putting it in a fire after he visits Minas Tirith and reads about it in documents. Specifically he reads the story that was written first-hand about how Isildur cut the ring off sauron's hand. It was only then that he had a way to test the ring. I think by that time he had no doubt in his mind as to what Frodo's ring really was
I think part of it is also a flaw of hope. That it had been 2500 years since the last war. That the object that caused the death and destruction by sauron had been found in the shire. A place that Gandalf has admitted holds dear. By holding off on the investigation he could have hope that it would always be safe. And it took several years before that "What if it isn't" couldn't be ignored anymore.
Wanting to believe something that you are willing to overlook evidence against is a flaw of hope
Exactly. I mean he could not send them on this quest unless he was sure it was the ring. This info is the key
lately i have been getting very deep into the LOTR lore through some really great youtube channels (in deep geek, nerd of the rings, men of the west, history of ages), so i was very happy to find your channel today. and now i will spend a copious amount of time delving into your videos. this is my first one and i really like you style and knowledge. thanks man!
Tolkien untangled is my fav Tolkien channel, highly recommend!
Even as someone who just watched the movies, I assumed that there were dozens of magic rings out in the world and that's why Gandalf never bat an eye about Bilbo's ring until it was obvious.
I never realized that Bilbo's merciful way of taking the Ring was a big reason his lack of corruption. And I guess the same goes for Frodo - he inherited it, he didn't take it. Hobbits really are remarkable creatures. Great insight!
The rings were made for their intended victims of each Race. Sauron never even considered what a Hobbit would want to corrupt them.
So when a ring fell into Smeagles hands it took hundreds of years to corrupt him. It was doing everything it could but all Smeagle desired was to be left alone and fish. So he ended up in a dark cave eating raw fish for hundreds of years before Bilbo found him.
I guarantee the Ring was like oh no not another fucking Hobbit. Can a human, dwarf, elf, hell a Troll find me?
@@charlesacker9174 yeah and it was impossible to destroy it personally no matter the race hobbits just had strong wills ig
Additionally, the ring could never truly corrupt Sam because he only had two true desires: Keeping his best friend Frodo safe, and marrying Rosie Cotton. At best, all the ring could do to Sam was make him jealous of those seeking Rosie’s attention, but that wouldn’t be until later down the line when that could come into play.
@@howardbaxter2514 now that you mention it.. Sam does go West after Rosie dies before him. So Tolkien might have been saying Sam saw his children grow up, and his wife pass and was covetous... And he decided yep I was a ring bearer and I am growing covetous time for me to do what Frodo and Gandalf did.
I like to headcanon imagine Sam arrived on Frodo's 111th birthday.
I read that as the ring corrupting ambition and the way Smeagol took it, the way others (Boromir) were quickly tempted, was by that ambition. They wanted the ring, as opposed to Bilbo and Frodo who merely obtained the ring and had no ambition at all with regards to it. Not necessarily mercy weakening its power so much as the attitude that kept it from getting its hooks in was also one that would encourage mercy.
This is also reflected with Isildur who in the books took the ring as weregild, basically payment for the death of his father and brother at Sauron's hands, rather than immediately wanting to use it for power. He did try to master the ring while spending a year or two taking care of his kingdom after the war and preparing it for his absence (he had to go up to Arnor which his father had ruled, take care of that kingdom as well) and I think it was his mind being focused on protection and healing while he did so that helped protect him. Eventually he realizes he cannot master it and it will begin to influence him, so he's taking it to Rivendell when the ambush happens.
True, the only sign that the ring is The One is when Bilbo has a hard time letting it go. I mean he's leaving his home, a house that he's been fighting to keep from his cousins and leave everything behind to go to Rivendel, yet this ring which he found on his travels not only was in his pocket all along and visibly made him question leaving it behind, but also made him extremely angry at someone he considered a good friend.
I have only recently found your channel and I've gotta say its great. You seem very knowledgeable about Tolkiens universe so you can cover each topic in depth and give us a perspective that is very close to how Tolkien viewed his creations. Thank you for that.
To reiterate some of the things you said in the video and to add to them, it is explained early on in the book that the one ring is made to look like a lesser ring, and one crucial thing that a lot of people seem to forget is that saruman didn't just lie to the white council about the one ring being completely lost forever, but he used the magic of his voice to convince them that it was lost forever and put them at ease. It's what he does. Gandalf explains in the second book that even the wise and himself are susceptible to his power, and only after knowing of his treachery is saruman's power useless on certain people. When they meet up with saruman after his defeat, gandalf isn't swayed by his lies, and to mention a lesser person, Eomer isn't fooled either. To add to this, even when gandalf was worried about Bilbo's ring being something more evil, he wasn't fully knowledgeable of the lore of the rings of power, as this was sarumans domai, and his recollection of saruman's words about the One Ring being lost still have an effect on him. Gandalf then is uneasy about consulting saruman about the ring, because he is basically starting to get bad vibes off of him for some time now and his intuition tells gandalf not to reveal the ring to saruman. On top of this, gandalf is constantly roaming around the world back and forth because he has other important errands that he needs to take care of, and him being immortal, it is easier for him to let years pass by, because in a way he has all the time in the world.
not a reader myself, but I like how subtle the magic is in LOTR. it's not some flashy fiery exploding spear, but a whisper.
"When did you know this is the One Ring?"
"A few moments ago, of course, in this very room. After we heated it the inscription became visible. That matched with the description by Isildur, I read in Minas Tirith. And I can read what it means, in the language of Mordor. This is the One Ruling ring, not one of the lesser ones I don't know of. These Rings of Power extend the lives of mortals. But the One can be very treacherous and can even turn them into wraiths, for it was made by Sauron and holds much of his malice. "
I always did find it interesting that Elrond mentions that it was forbidden to discuss the three... but after having worn the One himself... Frodo becomes fully capable of seeing, fully perceiving the three, even when they would be otherwise concealed, as he did with Galadriel's ring.
So again, Sauron's zeal and greed for the ring, and the pursuit by the Nazguls specifically, is what gives away that it is the One ring to Gandalf and the council. I love how that theme carries through the whole story so perfectly.
Yep. His servants calling the Ring 'a trifle, this least of rings' immediately makes it obvious that it's extremely important.
"there are many magic rings in this world, and none of them should be used lightly"
Therefore just ignore his possession of one with absolutely no investigation whatsoever. Seems legit.
@@SteffonDudley You have a toothbrush. HITLER had a tooth brush. Well that's enough evidence for me! I'm surely convinced enough to spend over a decade searching for some pretty scattered and mostly lost Hitler Toothbrush lore. Mm-hmm.
@@ABurntMuffin Hitler is confirmed to still be alive and has set up a fortress. His toothbrush is a WMD and he's looking for it.
Might be worth taking a look into what his toothbrush looks like at some point when passing through the locations that might have toothbrush lore over that 75 year period even if you don't know someone with a very strange toothbrush. The knowledge might be handy if Hitler invades Poland. Or something.
@@SteffonDudley did you not realize that was my point? oh, so hitler had a toothbrush.... YOU have a toothbrush... let me put a decades worth of work into investigating your toothbrush bcuz hitler.... its retarded because everyone has a toothbrush. At that point investigate everyone. I mean, why not just spend a hundred thousand years searching the riverbeds of middle earth while you're at it... Now obviously there are more toothbrushes than rings but again as gandalf said there are many so get over yourself oof.
@@SteffonDudley also he didn't "set up a fortress"
that place had been standing for longer than gandalf himself had been in middle earth. You actually have no idea what you're talking about, do you?
That was fascinating! I love how much I learn with every video you put up. Ty for making these.
Would the ring of Barahir be a lesser ring?
That’d be a no. It was just a ring owned by Finrod Felagund in the First Age and given to Barahir.
Thank him for being wrong and threatening commenters to not correct him? That's hilarious.
Be careful, the channel owner will delete your comments if you disagree with him. He's an insecure man-child who pretends to know Tolkien lore for clicks and views. He needs to get a real job.
@@ABurntMuffin It seems like you need to stfu and get a real job if you have the time to comment that in every single reply.
@@ABurntMuffin Also, it seems you’re begging for attention too. Tolkien Lore never deletes comments so go get a life and bother someone else.
Very well explained. I always thought it was quite obvious that Gandalf couldn't have known that Bilbo's rings was the One, because of the reasons you mentioned. So I was surprised to hear that it was considered a plot hole by so many people
Yeah nah bro it's pretty obviously a plot hole but the explanation is sufficient with a little imagination. Definitely not quite obvious that it wasnt a ring of power. You'd think maybe gandalf would have taken a look at it once considering his whole job was basically to eradicate something that coincidentally looks exactly like it's description. You could maybe argue he didn't know it was "the one" but for gandalf to not ascertain for himself that it was a ring of power is pretty stupid and certainly a plot hole considering in the rest of the narrative he just knows everything.
@@cooper5431 Gandalf certainly doesn't know everything for the rest of the story, in fact his not knowing everything is a huge reason why a lot of the later events in the book take place. You might say that Gandalf is wise to a fault; he doesn't assume anything, and tries to learn as much as he can about something before he takes action. But don't mistake a character trait fot a plot hole.
@@cooper5431 Not to me. To think that Bilbo has the ring of power is crazy, Gandalf's obvious thought subconsciously is it would never be possible he is a mere hobbit, Gandalf assumes its some minor ring with some invisibility power
@cooper5431
But he doesn't "just know everything", nor was it his job. Broadly speaking, all the Istari were sent to help the free folk against the Enemy, but only Saruman was actually versed in the ring-lore
As far as Gandalf is concerned, Bilbo found one of the lesser rings. Gandalf attributed Bilbo's long life to his heritage as part-Took (with no one knowing that the OR could extend your life; no knew that Gollum was once hobbit), and did not see any corrupting effects until the party.
I just stumbled upon this video while sitting here drawing. At first I really had to check out your channel page as I was amazed at how much you resemble codyslab both your voice and how you look. Anyways, good video, I'll be having a peek at your other videos tomorrow.
I was never certain that Gandalf wasn't aware... It seems that -- while destroying it was still too difficult a task to strive for -- the safest place for the ring was the shire. It is the place with the least of Melkor's influence
I concur. I've read LOTR a zillion times and it never occurred to me that this was an issue. I just assumed that there were other magic rings.
Thank you so much for your channel! I appreciate everything you do! Keep up the good work. Looking forward to seeing more in the future.
Interesting! And well done. I have to admit I had taken a cynical but forgiving attitude about this "plot hole", figuring JRRT had written a cool story about a magic invisibility ring, later did a retcon to make that ring far more significant, and didn't quite nail the details. But in light of what you said, his retcon was successful and well ironed out, though perhaps his fix was too subtle.
Saruman says it, Gandalf been getting buzzed off hobbit grass too much. "Your love of the halflings leaf" etc. haha
Not of , the book.
Except in the books Tolkien says the leaf is a form of tobacco
Be careful, the channel owner will delete your comments if you disagree with him. He's an insecure man-child who pretends to know Tolkien lore for clicks and views. He needs to get a real job.
@@ABurntMuffin woah I was just making a joke about Gandalf getting lit with the Hobbits, have you maybe considered that you are taking this a little too seriously?
@@thefalsekingslayer3717 I'm not, I enjoyed your joke. But if your comment isn't "family friendly" our overlord might strike it down. Don't shoot the messenger, friendo.
We know that elves made magic swords, and it follows that they likely made all kinds of magic items. Dwarves made magic doors, and other magic items. I don't think that Middle Earth is as low in magic as some people claim.
I’ll bet the magic would run out right before Malchior returned from the Void to bring the end of the world.
magic was kind of running low at the beginning of trilogy. but still compared to real world, there were plenty of magical stuff going.
i think the elder races could make magical stuff, but they couldn't CAST magic in combat, like Gandalf and other wizards could; i think that's why ppl think there's not much magic
Magic was used to create the world, Eru Iluvatar clearly saw magic as playing no role in the final form of his creation.
Melkor used magic to create things that Eru didn't envisage which was the birth of evil. In the wars against morgoth both sides used magic to fight which led to a great deal of destruction. Depending on your interpretation, sauron was stripped of some of his magic (such as shapeshifting) as punishment for causing the downfall of numenor. The 5 wizards were purposefully given very limited magic in their human bodies so they could support Erus will in other ways. Mortal beings are intentionally cut off from the spirit realm entirely as they have to toil in return for the afterlife.
This also plays into the evil of the ring. The core purpose of the ring was to allow a being in the physical realm more access to the magic of the spirit realm, for Sauron this was to give him access to magic which the Valar had denied him and anyone else in middle earth. In this light the overall moral of LotR is "power corrupts", all magic has to be denied to middle earth in the end because any magic will eventually drive people to evil.
I don’t think Tolkien would describe the creation of the world by Eru as involving “magic.”
Solid video. A lot of people confuse reader knowledge with given knowledge within the book. Cheers from Canada!
To add on to all the reasons why it took so long for Gandolf to suspect, he probably just didn’t want to believe that the one ring was back because if Bilbo really had it they could’ve meant doom for the whole world.
Excellent video.
Laid out the problem well and logically traced out the solution step by step.
Very nice.
I first read LOTR in 1977 when I was in the 8th grade. It was the first adult novel I ever read. As soon as I reached the end I immediately picked up the first volume and began chapter 1, A Long Expected Party and read it again 3 more times before I finally put it down for awhile. That's right. I read it 4 times in a row without a pause. Took me the entire school year. And no one around me had ever heard of it before and people wanted to know what I was reading. I became known around school as that guy with the book.
That was also the year Star Wars came out. A lot happened to me that year.
Love it
Excellent and thorough analysis of a matter which deserves it. As with many other things there is nothing comparable to a complete and thorough knowledge of the subject
Gandalf was also under the spell of Saruman, which he admitted at the Council of Elrond: "There I was at fault," he said. "I was lulled by the words of Saruman the Wise." Aragorn told the hobbits of Saruman that "the Wise he could persuade, and the small folk he could daunt."
I'd also add, though this is just my speculation, that Gandalf didnt WANT to think Bilbo's ring was the One. If nothing else I vase this on the notion that as Bilbo seemed ageless after so many years he justified it as Bilbo having come from a "long-lived family on his mother's side." If Bilbo was in possession of the One Ring the entire Shire was in particular danger. Even after Bilbo's behavior at his going away party he HAD to be ENTIRELY sure before setting things in motion.
Be careful, the channel owner will delete your comments if you disagree with him. He's an insecure man-child who pretends to know Tolkien lore for clicks and views. He needs to get a real job.
@@ABurntMuffin And what does that make the guy wasting his life's breath calling him names on his comments section?
@@ABurntMuffin Imagine having a life so lackluster that you waste a day posting the same drivel over and over in a comment section 3 months after a video was published... Seems you may be the one in need of a real job.
@@Josh-iv2bw imagine being the leech on the belly of the leech, oof, that's you
Excellent video essay on this topic…thank you!
I think it also helped that Bilbo didn't really use it for violence. He mainly used it to avoid annoying relatives. I think that would have helped lessen the impact on Bilbo.
This was very useful, I was always taken back by the idea that Gandalf didn't figure out sooner, I had a hunch that somewhere it was said there were lesser rings but I wasn't sure and I just hand waved that. Now I know, thank you.
Peaple try so hard to find a plot whole in LOTR, the fact that we have to try so hard to find something just show how a masterpiece and well made
bUt ThE EaGlEs!!!!!!! Reeeeeeeee
In the video by In Deep Geek you talked about an "earlier chapter" just as you did in this video. The "earlier chapter" is called 'Shadows of the Past'. It's the second chapter of the novel and, according to Tolkien, one of the first chapters he wrote.
Isn't Saruman already becoming corrupted (either by his own nature or influenced by the ring) before Bilbo even finds the ring? Can't remember the exact details, but he's either secretly searching the Gladden Fields himself, or alllowing the Necromancer to search there in hopes of uncovering The One Ring, obviously with the intent of taking it for himself. So Saruman has every reason to convince Gandalf (which he is sort of envious of) that The One Ring is lost forever, which would also play into why Gandalf doesn't believe Bilbos ring is The One.
He was actually showing signs of corruption early in time from the moment Gandelf was given on of the 3 elvish rings. I don't think he was corrupted by that point but his jealousy was the foothold that would lead to his fall
A wizard is never late but he arrives when he means to.
"There are some good reasons why Gandalf didn't know earlier" - yeah because Tolkien didn't know what was going to happen at the beginning of the story.
Maybe.. but he also changed a lot, so we’ll never know.
That was really interesting, thanks. I'd forgotten so many of the little details.
"A shadow fell on my heart then, though I did not know yet what I feared. I wondered often how Gollum came by a Great Ring, as plainly it was - that at least was clear from the first."
Any explanation relying on Gandalf believing the one to be a lesser ring is DIRECTLY contradicted in the text.
that is the main problem. Why that line was put in the book i don't know since everything else pointed in the other direction.
Gandalf, though he initially suspected it was a Great Ring, _did_ come to believe it was a lesser ring, because Saruman told the White Council that all the Great Rings (save for the One) had stones set into them. And the One Ring was believed to have perished by all including Sauron after the War of the Last Alliance.
I DID enjoy the video! I’m re-reading LotR right now and just got to the part where Gandalf tells Frodo about the rings.
This was exactly what I took from my careful reading, so it was very enjoyable to see that you hold the same position. That being said, I didn’t know there was even a debate on this, I thought it was fairly self-evident.
I think it's very important that Gandalf is shown to trust Saruman initially. Saruman's betrayal is a huge deal - he was sent to Middle Earth, like Gandalf, for one and only purpose - to stop Sauron. And even if Gandalf in his heart of hearts knew something was wrong, it must have been hard for him to accept even the prospect that he would be fighting not only Sauron, but also yet another being of extraordinary power.
Thanks for making the point I’ve been making for years. I keep forgetting most people have only seen the movies.
Gandalf's love of the halfling's leaf had clearly slowed his mind
There was no marijuana in England when Tolkien wrote those stories.
@@RonJohn63 Do you seriously believe that? Of course there was
I really enjoy your videos, thanks!
Gandalf has one, Elrond another, and Galadriel the third.
Exactly. Unknown to us, two of the Three are present at Rivendell. --And the One! That's a lot of ring power present in one place.
Shhh... dont tell
Spoiler Alert!!!!
@@flapjacki9579 but galadriel gave up frodo's ring right
The Three Elven rings of power.
The book explained it pretty well for me. The gravity of that ring being discovered was such that it's resurgence needed to be thoroughly confirmed. There were many that could be mistaken for it, so absolute empirical proof was needed.
The story suggests that the one ring has power and a will of its own and can hide or reveal itself and betray the ring bearer as well as the beholder. This is backed up by the fact, that the inscription fades and reappears only by the force of a strong fire. The ring hid his identity after it was separated from the dark lord.
you've got good theories, good presentation, good swords behind you. what I'm saying is- you've got a good channel! Here comes a subscribe.
Perhaps it was too much D&D, but when *Gandalf* said, _"There are many magic rings in this world, Bilbo Baggins…"_ I just assumed there were in fact *_many_*_ magic rings in the world._ 🤷🏼♂️
Terrific video! 🧙♂️
I was just going to say that. It's part of their back and forth after the Party.
"And none of them should be used likely." Gandalf also says, in reference to his vanishing act during his birthday party.
“Lightly” ;)
@@TolkienLorePodcast Ah well... "Likely" and "lightly" would still imply the same disapproval from Gandalf, in using it for a prank... 🧙♂️
"Described in the works of The Silmarillion, the elves made many other Magic Rings, but they were mere practice for the craftsmen who created them. Their ultimate fates are unknown, nor is it known whether or not their powers were bound to the power of the One. If they were, then their power would have failed with the destruction of the One."
Idk why but tell me please. It was like 17 year
what are the chances that your local hobbit friend just so happens to have the most powerful ring of the era
Better to do the fire test on every ring of power you find.... Gandalf the wise should have already known how to identify the one ring, he is in middle earth to help people destroy it... Lotr is the best buy nothing's perfect.
Well, because he went on the adventure with Gandalf.
@@gramforgramarmwrestling6742 well Gandalf had to do research before he even learned of the possible 'test by fire', after all he didn't know that the fire would reveal the marks before he found information that it's the case, that's why Gandalf had to read the scroll written by Isildur :).
"The Nine, the Seven, and the Three," he said, "had each their proper gem. Not so the One. It was round and unadorned, as it were one of the lesser rings; but its maker set marks upon it that the skilled, maybe, could still see and read."
What those marks were he had not said. Who now would know? The maker. And Saruman? But great though his lore may be, it must have a source. What hand save Sauron's ever held this thing, ere it was lost? The hand of Isildur alone.
`With that thought, I forsook the chase, and passed swiftly to Gondor. In former days the members of my order had been well received there, but Saruman most of all. Often he had been for long the guest of the Lords of the City. Less welcome did the Lord Denethor show me then than of old, and grudgingly he permitted me to search among his hoarded scrolls and books.
' "If indeed you look only, as you say, for records of ancient days, and the beginnings of the City, read on! " he said. "For to me what was is less dark than what is to come, and that is my care. But unless you have more skill even than Saruman, who has studied here long, you will find naught that is not well known to me, who am master of the lore of this City."
`So said Denethor. And yet there lie in his hoards many records that few now can read, even of the lore-masters, for their scripts and tongues have become dark to later men. And Boromir, there lies in Minas Tirith still, unread, I guess, by any save Saruman and myself since the kings failed, a scroll that Isildur made himself. For Isildur did not march away straight from the war in Mordor, as some have told the tale.'
'Some in the North, maybe,' Boromir broke in. 'All know in Gondor that he went first to Minas Anor and dwelt a while with his nephew Meneldil, instructing him, before he committed to him the rule of the South Kingdom. In that time he planted there the last sapling of the White Tree in memory of his brother.'
`But in that time also he made this scroll,' said Gandalf; `and that is not remembered in Gondor, it would seem. For this scroll concerns the Ring, and thus wrote Isildur therein:
The Great Ring shall go now to be an heirloom of the North Kingdom; but records of it shall be left in Gondor, where also dwell the heirs of Elendil, lest a time come when the memory of these great matters shall grow dim.
`And after these words Isildur described the Ring, such as he found it.
It was hot when I first took it, hot as a glede, and my hand was scorched, so that I doubt if ever again I shall be free of the pain of it. Yet even as I write it is cooled, and it seemeth to shrink, though it loseth neither its beauty nor its shape. Already the writing upon it, which at first was as clear as red flame, fadeth and is now only barely to be read. It is fashioned in an elven-script of Eregion, for they have no letters in Mordor for such subtle work; but the language is unknown to me. I deem it to be a tongue of the Black Land, since it is foul and uncouth. What evil it saith I do not know; but I trace here a copy of it, lest it fade beyond recall. The Ring misseth, maybe, the heat of Sauron's hand, which was black and yet burned like fire, and so Gil-galad was destroyed; and maybe were the gold made hot again, the writing would be refreshed. But for my part I will risk no hurt to this thing: of all the works of Sauron the only fair. It is precious to me, though I buy it with great pain.
'When I read these words, my quest was ended. For the traced writing was indeed as Isildur guessed, in the tongue of Mordor and the servants of the Tower. And what was said therein was already known. For in the day that Sauron first put on the One, Celebrimbor, maker of the Three, was aware of him, and from afar he heard him speak these words, and so his evil purposes were revealed."
It was Saruman who was the council's expert on the rings and ringlore:
"The lore of the Elven-rings, great and small, is his province. He has long studied it, seeking the lost secrets of their making; but when the Rings were debated in the Council, all that he would reveal to us of his ring-lore told against my fears. So my doubt slept - but uneasily. Still I watched and I waited.
‘And all seemed well with Bilbo. And the years passed. Yes, they passed, and they seemed not to touch him. He showed no signs of age. The shadow fell on me again. But I said to myself: “After all he comes of a long-lived family on his mother’s side. There is time yet. Wait!”
‘And I waited. Until that night when he left this house. He said and did things then that filled me with a fear that no words of Saruman could allay. I knew at last that something dark and deadly was at work. And I have spent most of the years since then in finding out the truth of it.’"
@@gramforgramarmwrestling6742 No, he didn't know about the markings on the ring until he had read the scrolls of Isildur in Minas Tirith. How would he? After gaining this knowledge he proceeded at once to The Shire to perform the test that previously neither he nor any other save Isildur (and Sauron) knew about.
@John Daly Saruman absolutely knew. He had literally millenia to learn about the rings, and he was obsessed with it for half of it, and he had access to the same archives Gandalf searched. So would Gandalf not have even mentioned the fact that Bilbo had an invisibility ring to Saruman, whom he considered a loyal friend? Or would Saruman not have learned about it from another source, given that all the dwarves and a lot of elves and humans near Erebor saw him turn invisible?
Saruman is the biggest hole in the theory imo, he should have learned about the ring a lot earlier, and he would be so obsessed with the One that he would absolutely want to check it out, just to be certain
His love of the halflings leaf had clearly slowed his mind
Also, the ring has its own ‘power’ and ‘desire’ to be returned to Sauron almost to the point where it’s sort of it’s own character. You could argue that as a ‘character’ it was biding it’s time in the shire, concealing itself, hiding in plain sight and waiting for the right moment to be reunited with its master. Concealing the brewing evil is something that Sauron constantly does with his own magic - it would make sense that his ring might have the same ability.
In another world it could be called a horcrux.
The only one talking about it on youtube, thanks!
My thought has always been that it's so outside the realm of probability he just never even thought about it.
He definitely did.
But he deferred to Saruman, who was a higher - ranking Wizard than he was.
Sums it up perfectly in my opinion. Bear in mind until the White Council attacked the Necromancer in Dol Guldur they were unaware he was in fact Sauron returned. The Istari were sent originally to counter the Nazgul and believed the Necromancer was a Nazgul. And Gollum was the cut off between the Gladden fields and the finding of the ring in terms of the rings history.
One other point is information sources. I'm sure Sauron wouldn't discuss it's crafting or powers; only Isildur and he alone held it and wrote about it. Boromir didn't even _know_ he had taken the One Ring, and he was the heir to Denethor.
I don't think Denethor knew about The Ring until he interrogated Pippin.
The scene in the film where he tells Boromir and Faramir that The Ring has been found is misleading.
Very nice. Thanks for making this.
You have to also possibly consider the One Ring was likely hiding. What ever influence and power it had over others was seemingly absent during those early years. It could be because Sauron's own power was so weak at the time but it was also odd the ring seemingly quietly remained in Biblo's possession all that time.
When a mere glance in the rings direction would normally draw people in and cause them to fight over it's power. Gandolf himself was in close proximity to the ring several times through out the Hobbit, never felt a twinge of it's power. Which was almost odd in many ways given the more powerful the user, the easier they are to corrupt.
You would think the ring would take ever chance to get away from Bilbo once he was in MIrkwood and so close to forces that would bear the ring to it's master. Yet he wore it on his finger for days/weeks without it trying to fall off or abandon him. Very odd over all.
That can be explained by Tolkien simply not having written literally ANYTHING at all about the One Ring. Your observations and predictions are completely valid. Had Tolkien started writing about Rings and Sauron's big project at the time of the writing of thr Hobbit, then Tolkiek could have written it differently. But at the time, it was just a magical object with no meaning to the History of Middle-Earth. Ironically, the Arkenstone had the kind of effect on people that you'd think the Ring would have had, only it wasn't designed to be any amazing artifact
I never thought of it as a plot hole. I didn’t think that he realized at first, but even when the thought came into his mind, due to Saruman’s insistence that it was gone forever, and that being the general consensus, thought that it was very possible that it wasn’t. As he looked into the matter, he had many other tasks to attend to, and believed it was probably in the most mundane and uninteresting place, safe in it’s hiding place while he could find further evidence about it’s provenance. As more evidence presented itself, slowly building up more “circumstantial” evidence, and then more and more definitive proof- including Gollum’s tortured exhortations, the dispatch of the Nazgûl to focus their search on The Shire, Bilbo’s dependency and addiction to it, culminating in his anger at Gandalf’s insistence that he give it up, the subsequent testing in the fire and the inscription, the inability of the fire to damage or even as much as warm it- there could be no doubting what it was. So I don’t think it’s a plot hole, or that he was clueless for close to eight decades- what began as an idea whose mere possibility was vehemently denied, to a suspicion with little definitive evidence, to known characteristics coming to light, forensic metallurgical testing, “psychically” feeling it’s power, and Sauron’s belief that it was The One to the extent that he dispatched The Nazgûl to retrieve it- well, it’s just Middle-Earth mythological bureaucracy at work, which may seem a snail’s pace to our collective modern mind. Just my opinion, obviously. Thanks for the video!
He knew it was a Great Ring from the beginning. He told Frodo that. He obviously knew where the Three and the Nine were. Therefore it could only be the One or one of the Seven. He did not "know" for certain it was the One until he put it to the test at Bag End, but he wasn't surprised by the result. There did exist at least the possibility that it was one of the Seven.
That’s true but Saruman also told the council in the year of the battle of five army’s that all the other great rings had gems except the one, so he should have known it was the one right away, either he forgot what Saruman said or it’s a plot hole ?
@@Jh68101 But consumed by dragon fire is not a confirmed loss.
@@Jh68101 Not necessarily. Remember, there were lesser rings in addition to the great rings. The smiths of Eregion made them as "essays in the craft", and they were far more numerous than the 19 great rings.
Most importantly, the lesser rings, like the One Ring, were unadorned with gems, while the great rings all had gems set into them. Gandalf had every reason to suspect that Bilbo's ring was one of these lesser rings until the Nazghul started looking for the One.
I'd forgotten about the idea of the lesser rings! Great job on your research!
I always took the "lesser rings" to mean the 9 and the 7
It’s pretty clear that’s not what he means when you consider the fate he describes for the great rings lines up perfectly with what happened to the Nazgul.
@@TolkienLorePodcast I’d say the fact that he feels the need to pluralise “great rings” is evidence enough that these- the most prominent of known rings besides The One- is evidence enough.
I assumed it was because he never saw signs of Bilbo’s corruption/obsession with it up until the events of LOTR, whereas with other bearers the signs were there from the get-go.
Gandalf feared it as "too great and terrible to imagine" that it would be the One Ring. Kinda like how Commissioner Gordon can but doesn't really wanna know that Bruce Wayne is Batman.
Lex Luther has never picked up on Superman being Clark Kent not because he's not smart enough, but because someone as selfish and power hungry as he is simply isn't capable of imagining that a being like Superman would ever "stoop so low" as to be some common reporter. It isn't what Lex Luthor would do, that's for sure.
Saruman explained it best to Gandalf:
“Your love for the halfling’s leaf, has clearly slowed your mind…”
Frodo: i pity the poor creater
Gandalf: it was pity that stayed bilbo's hand
Instant subscription with the baby crying in the background 😅♥️
Seriously? That's all it takes for you to sub, is knowing he's a dad? Pretty low bar you got there.
Be careful, the channel owner will delete your comments if you disagree with him. He's an insecure man-child who pretends to know Tolkien lore for clicks and views. He needs to get a real job.
Excellent explanation!
Gandalf doesn't know anything about the missing history of the One Ring, Isildur claiming it and then losing it in the Gladden Fields, or about the Inscription until he reads the Scroll of Isildur in the archives of Minas Tirith. He then follows Aragorn in his hunt for Gollum into Mirkwood and after that goes straight to Hobbiton and tests the Ring in front of Frodo.
I think that Gandalf suspected for a while, but didn't have any proof. And since everything he had ever been told or knew up till that point was that the One Ring was at the bottom of the ocean.
No
The probability that Bilbo has Saurons One Ring was so low as to be incomperhensible. Who would actually believe that?
Also, the One Ring can cloak itself from anyone it wants to. Gandalf had to go do super deep research in ancient libraries all over the whole of Middle Earth to be actually sure a tiny Hobbit had the most dansgerous physical item on the whole planet.
The idea a Hobbit had the Ring was perposterous.
I actually understood this much differently. What I believe is that Gandalf had strong suspicions that it was the One Ring, but since it seemed to not be overtly affecting Bilbo, he believe it was safer in his hands, than anywhere else. Especially, considering the enemy didn't know where it was. In fact, he was the only person who even suspected Bilbo at all. So, he intentionally did not pursue it harder and sooner, because he felt it was best kept secret in the hands of somebody who was not being overtly affected by it. When it finally became a matter of urgency, considering Bilbo was finally showing severe signs of control, he decided to actually test it, to make absolutely sure. I believe it was a calculated gamble from Gandalf, which he came to regret as a bad decision. Gandalf is not infallible. He makes mistakes in judgement at times. I believe this was a mistake in judgement, and an error in calculation which he came to regret...at best. And at worst, was a calculated way to keep the ring hidden, even though he suspected it was the One Ring. To me, this is much more believable than your explanation. I appreciate your thorough thought process, however. Keep up the good work!!
Its a cool theory but there is no evidence for that in the text, his theory is the one that looks more believanble when read the lord of the rings
It should be remembered that there are many 'practice rings' that Celebrimbor made over the decades he spent mastering ringcraft. They all conferred handy useful singular powers (though often with big flaws), so invisibility could conceivably be one, and were unadorned rings of silver and gold like what Bilbo showed him.
It was one of these that he always assumed Bilbo lucked into finding.
It was not until he noticed changes in Bilbo's behavior that he began to suspect the Ring was not safe to use (aforementioned flaws, it's why he said none of the magic rings should be used lightly), but still didn't suspect what it really was.
But it wasn't until Bilbo failed to age properly, and then mentioned that while he didn't look old, he felt it, that he was feeling thin and sort of stretched... that Gandalf's alarm bells triggered.
Bilbo was describing having his life extended, a sensation Gandalf knew himself from his own Great Ring. And so far as Gandalf knew... only the Great Rings did that.
After that it was just a matter of deduction, really. He first sat and worked out where the Great Rings had all gone in his head... he probably was done doing that before Bilbo even gave his speech, because only ONE Great Ring had no adornment... the rest all had their proper stones and this had none, and this was commonly known.
After that he had to find a way to tell for certain whether Bilbo had been EXTRA unusually lucky and found a lesser ring, the first found that both extended life and made you invisible, or if the world had been especially unlucky and Bilbo had stumbled upon the One Ring.
This he did by questioning Gollum, and learning where Gollum had found it centuries ago, and then delving into Isildur's journals and writings at Minas Tirith to find a conclusive way to tell the One from the lesser, short of giving it to Sauron and seeing what happens.
Really people are still going on about this. It also says implicitly in the movie that the ring had passed out of all knowledge for two thousand years.
Yes it does. But in a world of immortal elves, time means not. For there are many who actually lived during those times.
@@superherbs369 Time means "nought," or "naught." Nought (British spelling) or naught (American spelling) is an old word for "nothing."
"And some things that should not have been forgotten were lost. History became legend. Legend became myth. And for two and a half thousand years, the ring passed out of all knowledge."
Another thing that could have lead to the conclusion it was a lesser ring was that neither gollum, Bilbo nor Frodo had become truly corrupted and all powerful by having it. Basically it appeared to just make the wearer invisible and gave long life, Gollum was a miserable wretch and not king under the mountain with an army of orcs.
Well Gollum never knew it was a ring of power. He wouldn't just test it by say, walk to a goblin and command him to do something.
I forgot who mentioned it, but Frodo basically learns that, if he gave a command with it on, most would be compelled to obey. and uses that info on Gollum later on.
And it's because Bilbo never did, that he never found out about that power of the ring. (Although I feel I'm mixing some stuff for this)
where did u get the wall hanger boards for those swords, one the same once but mine came on a much more plain looking wood board
The Noble Collection.
This just goes to show the genius of Tolkien. The amount of nuance to his writing is forever astounding. A truly one on a millennia author!
It is also why it took him so long to write it.
Someone well-read chime in. Was "great rings" ever defined or just assumed to be only those of the 9-7-3-1? (I don’t have my books.)
Many of these so called plot holes tend to only be plot holes for those that have only seen the movies. Those that read the source materials knows that they're not plot holes.
Indeed.
Gandalf describes his thinking in some detail at The Council of Elrond, though it may be that he revised his memory and was really less suspicious of Bilbo's Ring than he makes out.
Like not using the eagles to travel
A fun talk on something I always wondered about
is it a plot hole?
short answer : No
long answer : No, anyone who thinks it is need to re-read the books...
Yes it is, this video doesn't change it. There are three holes in this theory: 1. Invisibility isn't a common power in Middle Earth, the Ring is literally the only one we know of that grants it. If the "trinketa" of Elven smiths made dozens of them for practice, if it was easy to craft a ring of invisibility, why wouldn't such a useful ability be more commonplace? Assuming that such a potent ring was "just a toy" is too reckless for Gandalf's character
2. Gandalf cares about Bilbo's well-being, and he thinks all magical rings are at least potentially dangerous, so why didn't he investigate the Ring before letting Bilbo keep it. Hit the books, learn what effects the minor elf-made rings had, or maybe ask...
3. Saruman. Saruman was obsessed with the Ring, he surely had read about it in Isildur's archives and knew its description, it's effects on mortal users, and how to "test" it in fire, and he had spies and informanta looking for the ring. There were dozens of people who witnessed Bilbo turn invisible/visible using the ring, surely the rumor about the hobbit with an invisibility ring would have reached Saruman's ears even if Gandalf didn't tell him. And with how obsessed he was with the Ring, he would've sent someone to investigate as soon as he learned about bilbo's ring, even if it was just a hunch
@@exantiuse4971. The skill to make those king of rings is mostly long gone since it was the Smiths of Eregion who were not just simple elven smiths but were High Elven survivors from Feanor's people. Feanor was the greatest Elvin Smith to ever live and made tones of Magic items (the Palantiri were made by him probably) Sting was made by Noldorian Elves in the first age. The King of Eregion Celebrimbor was the Grandson of Feanor. So those people were not just some Wood Elves but were a last vestige of the greatest smiths to ever live- They literally learned their Craft from the gods of middle earth thus they had knowledge that was special. So while to them Magic rings were a trifle they were not so to most other people (including other Elven kindreds)
Elves are not all the same- Legolas is partly blown away by the high elves, or at least they feel alien to him. He says something to the tune of "the trees do not remember them, only the stones remember them- they are gone, they sought the havens long ago" Most of the Nolder who were not killed by Sauron left Middle Earth after the War of the Last Alliance. So people with the knowledge of how to craft such magic items have been dead or gone for over 3,000 years.
(as it happens almost all the major magic items were made by this group of High Elves) The Silmarion, Sting, Glamdring, Orcrist, the Palantiri, the rings of Power (other than the One Ring itself) were all made by Feanor's people, or his close kindred. (practically everything Magic in middle earth is either from them or the Dark Lord himself.)
2. Gandalf has respect for Bilbo's right to his property. unless he has a really good reason to do otherwise then he would say nothing. This might sound like a cop-out but its actually a major theme in the whole story- its wrong to take things that don't belong to you.
3. As for Saruman's spies not so many people knew about Bilbo's invisility, mainly the dwarves. There is no reason to suspect that Saruman would have had spies in the North at that time so it would have taken a long time for any rumors to leak back to him.
@@exantiuse497 3. Can be easily be explained: Saruman doesn't care about the Hobbits. He is just like Sauron in that regard. It would be very unlikely of either of them to have spies among them. And the secrecy or rather privacy of the hobbits adds to this: there aren't really any story passing past the borders of the shire, no matter if they come from the outside or the inside. As William pointed out, not many people outside of the birthday party knew about the invisibility and those were pretty much only the dvarvs (not sure if they actually knew about it). Another thing to keep in mind: People knew Gandalf was a friend of Bilbo and that he was a wizard. I wouldn't be surprised if the hobbits simply blamed Gandalf for that invisibility trick. Or rather, sudden dissappearing, for they did not strictly know that he truly turned invisible
I didn't realize there were lesser rings, I always assumed that Gandalf thought Bilbo's ring to be one of the Dwarven rings.
It was in the book that talks about the "lesser rings". That it might be a dwarven ring was avoided because those were already known to have been collected, lost at sea or destroyed by dragons, minor question: was the balrog of Durins baine capable of destroying a greater ring?
@@jessepollard7132 doubt it. It is stated that not even the most terrible dragon's fire could melt it, and gandalf was able to outmatch and kill Durin's bane mask while himself not being able to destroy the ring. Not that things wouldn't have gone reeeeal bad for middle earth had that thing obtained the one
Because tLotR was written after The Hobbit, and Tolkien didn’t originally envision the Ring as a horecrux of ultimate evil.
I never read the Harry Potter books so horecrux is a new word to me. I found a few definitions.
A Horcrux was an object in which a Dark wizard or witch has hidden a fragment of his or her soul in order to become immortal. Horcruxes could only be created after committing murder, the supreme act of evil. The process for the creation of a Horcrux involved a spell and a horrific act is performed soon after the murder has been committed.
this is the true answer.
Please, don't refer to the ring as horcruxe. It was Rowling who copied the concept
@@racernatorde5318 The concept of an essence being preserved inside of an object wasn’t original to Tolkien either. And I like the term horecrux because it sounds cool.
The ring Bilbo found in the Hobbit was just a magical ring that turned you invisible if you put it on, like the Greek mythical item the Ring of Gyges.
@@mrmaat Oh, not just preserving essence. This whole "only destroying this thing allows you to kill..." is very, very similar. And conisdering the amount of other things she copied... But I don't even want to sound as negative about this as I probably do right now. Taking inspiration from other authors or sources is something that has always happened. It's just when people tend to pretend something was someones "invention", when it really was someone else who defined it, that I get bothered by it
First of all, people need to stop calling "unexplained things" "plot holes"
they aren't plot holes.
and.... thats all.
great video as always
Great Video! There is a bigger plot hole, that I feel hasn't been addressed. Gandalf arrived in Middle Earth in 1100 of the Third Age. His mission as an Istari, was to guide and advise the free people of Middle Earth. But within the time he arrived in Middle Earth and the events of the Lord of Rings, many of the kingdoms of men and dwarves had either fallen or were weakened by war or internal strife(Arnor, Gondor, Moria, Erebor etc)
This raises the question; why didn't Gandalf prevent these kingdoms from collapsing? He could have prevented their collapse by advising their kings and leaders properly, thus preventing their collapse and preserving a unified a front again Sauron. After all, isn't this why Gandalf was sent to Middle Earth anyways?
Let me know your thoughts on this.
We don’t know that Gandalf wasn’t doing that, for starters, and as his experience with Denethor shows, not all leaders accept wise counsel.
@@TolkienLorePodcast Gandalf kinda reminds me of Cassandra in Greek Mythology. He speaks the truth yet no one believes him lol
That and there were other forces at work. Moria fell because of a Balrog, a completely unforeseen eventuality. Erebor fell to Smaug. Eregion was long gone. In fact the only kingdom I can think of that fell in the Third Age after the Istari arrived was Arnor and its subsidiary kingdoms, but that was the result of a long, concerted campaign which probably could not have been resisted forever as things were.
@@TolkienLorePodcast but see that is my point. Also Moria and Erebor fell after Gandalf arrived. Again, my point is, I feel Gandalf could have nonetheless prevented this. For example, in Arnor, he could prevented the kingdom from dividing, by bringing peace amongst the three faction, or by uniting them against Angmar. In the case or Erebor and Moria, he could have advised the kings at the time, against their greed(which was brought about by the dwarven ring of power). Heck even in the case of Gondor, he could have prevented events such as the Kinstrife. In doing so they would have had a unified front against Sauron, unlike at the start of the Lord of the Rings, where many of the great kingdoms had fallen or were weakened. That way he wouldn't have had to do damage control, and with the great kingdoms of men, dwarves, and elves unified and strong.
Well Gandalf wasn’t a miracle worker so you’re expecting an awful lot if you think he should have reunited the kingdom of Arnor. You have to remember Rhudaur straight up allied with Angmar.
Thank you.
Great work.
Well he's a wizard, so he found out exactly when he was meant to.
Gandalf assuming what Bilbo had was the one ring would be like us assuming the swords in the background of this video were the same swords used when shooting the movies.
I've never read the books, only seen the movies. And so I don't know all the details. But honestly, as a child watching Fellowship for the first time. 1 sentence led me to this conclusion that lesser rings exist. "It began with the forging of the great rings." Now it's not proof that there was lesser rings, but in my mind, the fact they are referred to as GREAT rings made me think there was other magic rings, but these were special. So I never thought of this as a plot hole.
very well explained, thank you for that!
Doesn’t Gandalf literally say to Bilbo, “There are many magic rings in this world”?
Jep.