I know dragons typically aren’t associated with horror but the way Glaurung messes with men and elves makes me imagine him Inducing psychological horror.
Yeah, quite a few times we have instances where particularly evil creatures are characterized by not only the fear they inspire but also their stench. The Fell Beasts of course but also the Watcher in the Water and of course Shelob.
I like the theory that the nameless things, the watcher and even Ungoliant are essentially "products" of Morgoth's original interference in the song of creation. They are like physical concentrations of the "Morgoth theme", so to speak. This would also explain the "older than Sauron" comment quite neatly, in the sense that the Ainur/Maiar went down into an already existing Ea, where these beings already existed. You can apply the same framework to Bombadil, too; he is a distillation of the original goodness of Eru -- oldest, fatherless, but not a Maiar/Ainur.
Two creatures for the LoTR that should probably be on the list are Gollum, a sneaking, baby eating, almost wraith; and the dead men in the Dead Marshes. Extending beyond the LoTR, I have always thought Tolkien's creepiest monsters were the Mewlips, from the Poem in The Adventures of Tom Bombadil. Of course, it is possible that the Mewlips are an ancient distorted memory of Gollum before he went under the Misty Mountains.
Orc babies, though. Or did he start with human babies before he crept under the Misty Mountains to dwell in that grotto, and then resort to going after goblin-spawn? It's interesting to wonder about goblins/orcs being as scared of the monster eating their children the same way people grew to fear mythical monsters like Lilith, or the relatively modern SIDS; Sudden Infant Death Syndrome. Almost makes you sympathize with those poor goblin parents whose children became food for Gollum.
Given that Stephen King's novel 'The Stand' is based on LotR, I've sometimes wondered if Pennywise's true form in 'It' was based on Ungoliant: Both are huge spider-like creatures from beyond space and time.
i came here to suggest the same thing. especially considering that it was basically from beyond reality as we know it and its true form was as "dead lights"
I have oft speculated "The Watcher in the Water" to perhaps be one of the very few Maia associated before Arda with Ulmo, corrupted by Melkor. The Ainulindale intimates that most of the Maia corrupted by Melkor were fire spirits (who became Balrogs), but not all. We know Sauron was corrupted from Aule after entering the world. So perhaps a very few of those who were meant to serve Ulmo went that route instead, though as much as Ulmo opposed Melkor, even, perhaps, more than Manwe, we can also rest assured that this was even fewer...and that Osse even repented.
Ori was the one who wrote the more legible remnants of the Book of Mazarbul ;) I agree with all you say, including the differing "flavors", as it were. All of Tolkien's antagonists hold a terror of their own, and while all are written skillfully, to me, none hold more terror (if being of lesser power in other ways) to me than the Nazgul. I can articulate some of it, but not all of it. It's not strictly a fear of undeath, or enslavement, though it's that in part. I feel about the Nazgul the same way Gmli felt about the Paths of the Dead. I felt his fear, but not because of the same fear. I am 46 years old. I am a grown man who has mastered many of his own fears, and I have made the quest of the Ring 30 times (and soon to embark on 31). To this day, since the first reading, I WILL not read the chapter "A Knife in The Dark" if darkness is approaching. It gave me nightmares, when upon the first reading, I did read it late. Tolkien's descriptions of them, from the Shire forward, put such a chill in my soul...and I am not ashamed to say it. I feel Tolkien, had he had any such interest, could have been a horror writer of such quality as to put Steven King to shame (and while horror is not my thing either, I acknowledge King's mastery of the genre). While I think Jackson, among his many sins, did Smaug and Durin's Bane incredible justice, failed in making the Nazgul quite as terrible as they feel from the text, I think perhaps the medium is what limited him there, and for this, I am grateful. I should rather have walked the Paths of the Dead with the Grey Company, having Aragorn's assurance that these ghosts serve our cause, than to have had to stand in that hollow beneath Weathertop when only 5 of them assaulted the camp. Now, if you'll excuse me, I think I need some chocolate. If it helps with dementors, perhaps it will help after thinking about the Nazgul.
Tom Bombadil. Now, wait, hear me out -- if Ungoliant was a creature from the chaos and darkness that existed before the world was created, who wanted to return to that realm, well, I suspect Bombadil was ALSO from the chaos and darkness from before the world -- but he likes things the way they are.
I definitely think the trees of the old forest are unsettling and creepy entity's, as for what category I would put them in I'm not certain, perhaps suspense? What do you think?
@Paul Jessy I always wondered if they were men that turned into dragons or giant killer worm monsters (like Tremors). I read that in an earlier draft of the Hobbit, when many of the places had real world names, that he cited them as being from Mongolia. And there actually is a giant worm myth from Mongolia. If my memory serves...
@@TolkienLorePodcast its a small little line in the Hobbit. Bilbo says, "Tell me what you want done, and I will try it, if I have to walk from here to the East of East and fight the wild Were-worms in the Last Desert." If j remember correctly it is said before he leaves the Shire.
A little surprised you didn't mention (even briefly) one of the more obvious examples: The Creature Gollum. He would represent a bit of the Banal Evil type of horror, like a movie about a drug addicted murder hobo, who is equal parts dangerous and sympathetic. He will happily murder and eat you, but he used to be a person before a set of bad choices turned him into something else. He represents, probably better than even the Nazgul, that even normal people can become horrifying monsters.
@@jonathonfrazier6622 I think part of what is horrifying about his character is that, despite his deep flaws, he still is a normal person. The terror comes largely from the fact that normal people are still capable of such atrocities. Separating ourselves by saying, "it's because he was messed up in his head," is a defense mechanism that fails to acknowledge that it can potentially happen to any of us.
The creepiest creature is the one we know nothing about other that it is in the depths of Moria and makes the noise "tom-tap, tom-tap, tom-tap". Precisely because we know nothing else about it.
Halloween is not really a thing in my country, so sorry if I'm a bit offside. But couldn't you chuck in a troll or two accompanied by a few orcs? Not something I would want to meet in a dark alley. And what do you say about the Barrow-wights and the faces in the Dead marshes? The faces of course aren't active agents, but they could at least be a scary background. Maybe also a few of the smaller dragons could fit the theme, the not too OP ones.
Barrow wights.. Orcs for that matter and cave trolls.. and most to be feared the wives of the balrogs when they forget to tell their spouse that they're bringing home guests for supper!
We forget about how creepy the elves can be. Those who chose to stay in Middle-Earth for a long time would have their bodies fade, leaving only the soul to roam the lands. Some of this souls (fea) would try (and many times succeed) to posses the bodies of humans.
13:38 In a Letter, Tolkien answers if they are "pterodactyls" and he makes the comment they are at least "pterodactylish" - in other words, he has identified them as being of the pterosaur kind.
8:21 The watcher in the water is as close to the Chthulu Mythos as Tolkien got. 17:10 You missed Barrow Wights, I don’t know what kind of horror movie they belong in though
The scariest sh..t for me was Bilboss hiss face in the beginning of LoTr, when he tried to snatch ring back, and Galadriels glowing face when she described her “pawa” if she would take the one ring. Talk about childhood traumas ))))
Peter Jackson also gives a hint in the latter scene as to what Fëanor and his sons must have looked and sounded like when they swore their fateful oath.
Yes, the Watcher in the Water might have originally been one of those "nameless things" that somehow made its way to the surface to inhabit the lake that formed before the West-gate of Moria. Those nameless things very much do remind me such lesser Lovecraft monsters such as Chthonians, Dholes and Gugs. The winged mounts of the Ring-wraiths are a bit small to fit into the category of kaiju (Godzilla and his peers); even Smaug would be at the lower end of that scale. Speaking of dragons, they would naturally fit into such heroic fantasy films as 'Dragonslayer'. Give Vermithrax Pejorative the ability to speak and she'd fit right into the Third Age of Middle-earth.
Balrog- Temple Horror ( The mummy, the ruins, relic ) Shelob - Nature horror ( Jaws and Crawl ) UNGOLIANT - Folk Horror ( the ritual, Midsommar, the wicker man) Nazgûl - Occult horror ( the omen, the exorcist, Rosemary’s baby) Watcher in the water/ nameless things - Cosmic horror ( the things, color out of space and the beyond ) Dead Marshes - Psychedelic Horror ( A field in England, altered states and Eraserhead)
The Nameless things that knaw and the Watcher in the water are truely creepy things Kinda interesting how you distinguish between old gods and eldritch things
I’d like to throw the barrow weights into the pot. I like the whole haunted house vibe of the barrows area. Illusions or mindworms that trick the characters into doing dumb shit. Going in circles, mistaking the maw of a barrow for an escape portal, dressing up in old dresses and going to sleep on top of an altar slab… And I like that it’s really unclear what they are. They look and act a bit as some kind of revenants, but somebody (Tom?) says that they were sent out from Angmar and infested the old grave sites. Demons. Lesser maiar? People wraithified with morgul blades? Or some kind of evil magic that infected the original peaceful dead and transformed them? They’re neat.
You're thinking of when Boromir threw a stone into the lake where the Watcher was, before they'd even entered Moria. But Pippin does drop a stone down the well once they're inside the mines.
Hearing you mention Tolkien & Lovecraft in the same video feels dirty, especially since Lovecraft was a cosmic nihilist. I wander Middle Earth feeling hopeful, the existential dread of cosmic horror is something quite out of place to my way of thinking. At least in my work Werewolves & Vampires can, in the right situation, be seen as cuddly...anything approaching Cthulhu & I'm uncomfortable. Great video though.
But some of his creatures *are* innately loathsome.. and the Barrow Wights explicitly express a will to Nothingness in their incantation. And the Morgul-Knife shard, working its way through Frodo's body to reach his heart and draw him irrevocably into the Wraith World.. *shudders*
@@brovold72 Indeed, I believe the existence of clearly defined Good & Evil makes Tolkien's horrors more palatable due to knowing that in the end Good will prevail as opposed to the madness & dispair waiting @ the close of a Lovecraft story.
I mean the lifespan of men keep going down and down and down the elves eventually leave the world altogether comedy Dwarfs seem like they are not properly seen again in the fourth age... The orcs go extinct, the dragons are constantly shrinking, peace among men seems to Never Last... I mean I keep hearing people describe this world as hopeful but I'm not sure how I can take that away from the work?
![Felix "Unfair" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Oswujxm2Ag0/mqdefault.jpg)
![I.N "HALLUCINATION" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/n5B5q1Hwt_U/mqdefault.jpg)
I know dragons typically aren’t associated with horror but the way Glaurung messes with men and elves makes me imagine him Inducing psychological horror.
The Barrow Wights. Considering they are reanimated corpses, they are pretty horrifying.
I was just thinking about them. They're also one of our early tastes of horror in the book. Very very creepy.
Yeah, quite a few times we have instances where particularly evil creatures are characterized by not only the fear they inspire but also their stench. The Fell Beasts of course but also the Watcher in the Water and of course Shelob.
The two raven statues in Mordor were pretty scary, especially in the Bakshi cartoon, I believe it was. And Grond!
I think you mean the Watchers in the Rankin/Bass version, but yeah.
The Silent Watchers at the Tower of Cirith Ungol are petty creepy.
Can not forget the Mewlips and Gorcrows
I like the theory that the nameless things, the watcher and even Ungoliant are essentially "products" of Morgoth's original interference in the song of creation. They are like physical concentrations of the "Morgoth theme", so to speak. This would also explain the "older than Sauron" comment quite neatly, in the sense that the Ainur/Maiar went down into an already existing Ea, where these beings already existed.
You can apply the same framework to Bombadil, too; he is a distillation of the original goodness of Eru -- oldest, fatherless, but not a Maiar/Ainur.
Two creatures for the LoTR that should probably be on the list are Gollum, a sneaking, baby eating, almost wraith; and the dead men in the Dead Marshes. Extending beyond the LoTR, I have always thought Tolkien's creepiest monsters were the Mewlips, from the Poem in The Adventures of Tom Bombadil. Of course, it is possible that the Mewlips are an ancient distorted memory of Gollum before he went under the Misty Mountains.
I think that's the one thing that really disturbed me with Gollum. The fact that he ate babies really makes you feel unsettled.
Orc babies, though. Or did he start with human babies before he crept under the Misty Mountains to dwell in that grotto, and then resort to going after goblin-spawn? It's interesting to wonder about goblins/orcs being as scared of the monster eating their children the same way people grew to fear mythical monsters like Lilith, or the relatively modern SIDS; Sudden Infant Death Syndrome. Almost makes you sympathize with those poor goblin parents whose children became food for Gollum.
Given that Stephen King's novel 'The Stand' is based on LotR, I've sometimes wondered if Pennywise's true form in 'It' was based on Ungoliant: Both are huge spider-like creatures from beyond space and time.
It's possible. I know that the whole inspiration for the clown form was John Wayne Gacy.
i came here to suggest the same thing. especially considering that it was basically from beyond reality as we know it and its true form was as "dead lights"
@@salazar556
And in the Russian Fellowship movie, the Barrow-Wight takes the form of a clown.
I have oft speculated "The Watcher in the Water" to perhaps be one of the very few Maia associated before Arda with Ulmo, corrupted by Melkor.
The Ainulindale intimates that most of the Maia corrupted by Melkor were fire spirits (who became Balrogs), but not all. We know Sauron was corrupted from Aule after entering the world. So perhaps a very few of those who were meant to serve Ulmo went that route instead, though as much as Ulmo opposed Melkor, even, perhaps, more than Manwe, we can also rest assured that this was even fewer...and that Osse even repented.
Ori was the one who wrote the more legible remnants of the Book of Mazarbul ;)
I agree with all you say, including the differing "flavors", as it were. All of Tolkien's antagonists hold a terror of their own, and while all are written skillfully, to me, none hold more terror (if being of lesser power in other ways) to me than the Nazgul. I can articulate some of it, but not all of it. It's not strictly a fear of undeath, or enslavement, though it's that in part. I feel about the Nazgul the same way Gmli felt about the Paths of the Dead. I felt his fear, but not because of the same fear.
I am 46 years old. I am a grown man who has mastered many of his own fears, and I have made the quest of the Ring 30 times (and soon to embark on 31). To this day, since the first reading, I WILL not read the chapter "A Knife in The Dark" if darkness is approaching. It gave me nightmares, when upon the first reading, I did read it late. Tolkien's descriptions of them, from the Shire forward, put such a chill in my soul...and I am not ashamed to say it.
I feel Tolkien, had he had any such interest, could have been a horror writer of such quality as to put Steven King to shame (and while horror is not my thing either, I acknowledge King's mastery of the genre). While I think Jackson, among his many sins, did Smaug and Durin's Bane incredible justice, failed in making the Nazgul quite as terrible as they feel from the text, I think perhaps the medium is what limited him there, and for this, I am grateful.
I should rather have walked the Paths of the Dead with the Grey Company, having Aragorn's assurance that these ghosts serve our cause, than to have had to stand in that hollow beneath Weathertop when only 5 of them assaulted the camp.
Now, if you'll excuse me, I think I need some chocolate. If it helps with dementors, perhaps it will help after thinking about the Nazgul.
Tom Bombadil. Now, wait, hear me out -- if Ungoliant was a creature from the chaos and darkness that existed before the world was created, who wanted to return to that realm, well, I suspect Bombadil was ALSO from the chaos and darkness from before the world -- but he likes things the way they are.
I definitely think the trees of the old forest are unsettling and creepy entity's, as for what category I would put them in I'm not certain, perhaps suspense? What do you think?
Hmm, tough one. Probably some kind of supernatural category but it’s hard to say.
And don't forget about the Huorns of Fangorn.
I was always fascinated by the wereworms.
@Paul Jessy I always wondered if they were men that turned into dragons or giant killer worm monsters (like Tremors). I read that in an earlier draft of the Hobbit, when many of the places had real world names, that he cited them as being from Mongolia. And there actually is a giant worm myth from Mongolia. If my memory serves...
I’m honestly blanking on this. Where do wereworms get mentioned?
@@TolkienLorePodcast its a small little line in the Hobbit. Bilbo says, "Tell me what you want done, and I will try it, if I have to walk from here to the East of East and fight the wild Were-worms in the Last Desert." If j remember correctly it is said before he leaves the Shire.
Ah, found it. A very passing reference indeed!
@@TolkienLorePodcast i think Jackson also put them in one of the hobbit movies and he went with the giant worm interpretation.
A little surprised you didn't mention (even briefly) one of the more obvious examples:
The Creature Gollum.
He would represent a bit of the Banal Evil type of horror, like a movie about a drug addicted murder hobo, who is equal parts dangerous and sympathetic. He will happily murder and eat you, but he used to be a person before a set of bad choices turned him into something else.
He represents, probably better than even the Nazgul, that even normal people can become horrifying monsters.
I feel Smeagol had some deep and inherent flaws native to himself even before he had the Ring.
@@jonathonfrazier6622 I think part of what is horrifying about his character is that, despite his deep flaws, he still is a normal person. The terror comes largely from the fact that normal people are still capable of such atrocities. Separating ourselves by saying, "it's because he was messed up in his head," is a defense mechanism that fails to acknowledge that it can potentially happen to any of us.
The creepiest creature is the one we know nothing about other that it is in the depths of Moria and makes the noise "tom-tap, tom-tap, tom-tap". Precisely because we know nothing else about it.
Orc smith no doubt!
The Balrog Durin's Bane made that noise
Halloween is not really a thing in my country, so sorry if I'm a bit offside. But couldn't you chuck in a troll or two accompanied by a few orcs? Not something I would want to meet in a dark alley. And what do you say about the Barrow-wights and the faces in the Dead marshes? The faces of course aren't active agents, but they could at least be a scary background. Maybe also a few of the smaller dragons could fit the theme, the not too OP ones.
All good picks. :)
15:49 Ring wraiths and for that matter Sauron ... check Koshchey the deathless.
The watcher in the lake realy gets in my skin, where did he came from? What does it look like? What does it want?
It wants ponys.
Time for creepyness! Horror LOTR time!
Barrow wights.. Orcs for that matter and cave trolls.. and most to be feared the wives of the balrogs when they forget to tell their spouse that they're bringing home guests for supper!
We forget about how creepy the elves can be. Those who chose to stay in Middle-Earth for a long time would have their bodies fade, leaving only the soul to roam the lands. Some of this souls (fea) would try (and many times succeed) to posses the bodies of humans.
13:38 In a Letter, Tolkien answers if they are "pterodactyls" and he makes the comment they are at least "pterodactylish" - in other words, he has identified them as being of the pterosaur kind.
0:36 "For this video, I'm gonna be fuckin specific creatures, things, whatever, really, really scary by themselves." Sorry, I had a laugh :)
8:21 The watcher in the water is as close to the Chthulu Mythos as Tolkien got. 17:10 You missed Barrow Wights, I don’t know what kind of horror movie they belong in though
When the spirits of Lovecraft & Tolkien are combined a smile like few others I wear overtakes my face! Cheers
I've been trying to figure out how to write a creepypasta based on being stalked by the Ringwraiths and the mental strain of carying the Ring...
The scariest sh..t for me was Bilboss hiss face in the beginning of LoTr, when he tried to snatch ring back, and Galadriels glowing face when she described her “pawa” if she would take the one ring. Talk about childhood traumas ))))
Peter Jackson also gives a hint in the latter scene as to what Fëanor and his sons must have looked and sounded like when they swore their fateful oath.
the sackville baggins
Yes, the Watcher in the Water might have originally been one of those "nameless things" that somehow made its way to the surface to inhabit the lake that formed before the West-gate of Moria. Those nameless things very much do remind me such lesser Lovecraft monsters such as Chthonians, Dholes and Gugs. The winged mounts of the Ring-wraiths are a bit small to fit into the category of kaiju (Godzilla and his peers); even Smaug would be at the lower end of that scale. Speaking of dragons, they would naturally fit into such heroic fantasy films as 'Dragonslayer'. Give Vermithrax Pejorative the ability to speak and she'd fit right into the Third Age of Middle-earth.
Balrog- Temple Horror ( The mummy, the ruins, relic )
Shelob - Nature horror ( Jaws and Crawl )
UNGOLIANT - Folk Horror ( the ritual, Midsommar, the wicker man)
Nazgûl - Occult horror ( the omen, the exorcist, Rosemary’s baby)
Watcher in the water/ nameless things - Cosmic horror ( the things, color out of space and the beyond )
Dead Marshes - Psychedelic Horror ( A field in England, altered states and Eraserhead)
The Nameless things that knaw and the Watcher in the water are truely creepy things
Kinda interesting how you distinguish between old gods and eldritch things
The ring itself has a kind of "Christine" vibe...
I've always thought Helm Hammerhand proved Tolkien could write horror.
I’d like to throw the barrow weights into the pot.
I like the whole haunted house vibe of the barrows area. Illusions or mindworms that trick the characters into doing dumb shit. Going in circles, mistaking the maw of a barrow for an escape portal, dressing up in old dresses and going to sleep on top of an altar slab…
And I like that it’s really unclear what they are. They look and act a bit as some kind of revenants, but somebody (Tom?) says that they were sent out from Angmar and infested the old grave sites. Demons. Lesser maiar? People wraithified with morgul blades? Or some kind of evil magic that infected the original peaceful dead and transformed them?
They’re neat.
The nameless things of khazad-dum
I would put Shelob in the classic Harryhausen monster movies, just the right size and setting
If I would meet a group of Orcs in the street, I would also switch the walkway 😉
Just a small thing, in the book it's not Pippin that throws the stone, it's Boromir.
And it’s Frodo who tells him to stop.
@@TolkienLorePodcast Aye, instead of Aragorn.
You're thinking of when Boromir threw a stone into the lake where the Watcher was, before they'd even entered Moria. But Pippin does drop a stone down the well once they're inside the mines.
Hearing you mention Tolkien & Lovecraft in the same video feels dirty, especially since Lovecraft was a cosmic nihilist. I wander Middle Earth feeling hopeful, the existential dread of cosmic horror is something quite out of place to my way of thinking. At least in my work Werewolves & Vampires can, in the right situation, be seen as cuddly...anything approaching Cthulhu & I'm uncomfortable. Great video though.
But some of his creatures *are* innately loathsome.. and the Barrow Wights explicitly express a will to Nothingness in their incantation. And the Morgul-Knife shard, working its way through Frodo's body to reach his heart and draw him irrevocably into the Wraith World.. *shudders*
@@brovold72 Indeed, I believe the existence of clearly defined Good & Evil makes Tolkien's horrors more palatable due to knowing that in the end Good will prevail as opposed to the madness & dispair waiting @ the close of a Lovecraft story.
How can middle earth be hopeful when it's a story of constant decline?
I mean the lifespan of men keep going down and down and down the elves eventually leave the world altogether comedy Dwarfs seem like they are not properly seen again in the fourth age...
The orcs go extinct, the dragons are constantly shrinking, peace among men seems to Never Last...
I mean I keep hearing people describe this world as hopeful but I'm not sure how I can take that away from the work?
The hope is not for improvement in the mortal world, but in the hereafter.
Arda is scary. Would choose the side of Morgoth and all these creatures you speak of
When i get bored of d&d lore Theres always Tolkien lore